protection

[sand egret]

you ain't wrong

[wild bolt]

Losing to a Bouncy Boi

Rough

[sick sentinel]

But if I was alliance I would play a gnome

[sand egret]

esp male pandas

[chilly brook]

I’m just a troll by heart

[sick sentinel]

Or dark iron

[sand egret]

cleansing bleeds

is just the best

those KR Zerks be ez peeze

[junior ivy]

theres just nothing funnier than taking a raid as a tiny little gnome, protecting all the giant elves and humans and dranei from scary boss

its like haha you need a tiny cute gnome to protect you

[ember arrow]

well

[sand egret]

so funny story, gnomes were the preferred tanks in BWL alliance side

[ember arrow]

you needed us to protect you from mythic taloc

gottem

[sand egret]

since Nef was tanked at an angle where your camera would fuck up if you were too tall

RIP tauren

[chilly brook]

I mean why not be a panda and do the same thing and still have it be funny while also having a useful racial?

[junior ivy]

levko do you even know ive killed mythic mothjer now too

mother

[sand egret]

shorter tanks = better tanks

[ember arrow]

when will u start tanking bosses that do tank dmg?

:kappa

[amber siren]

toxic af

[junior ivy]

lets not get ahead of ourselves

[ember arrow]

🍍

hmm

that was supposed to be

[chilly brook]

Did I mention that pandas backflip every time they dodge?

[ember arrow]

@chilly brook really

thats dope

[amber siren]

pandas are for weeb furries

[sand egret]

I feel like that animation would get tiring real fast

[chilly brook]

Yea we do @ember arrow

[junior ivy]

that is kinda cool

i wish gnomes had cool jumps like some races have

[chilly brook]

Tfw weeb refers to someone who love Japanese culture but pandas are based off of Chinese culture

[signal plover]

Or u could just not play a gnome @junior ivy

[ember arrow]

tfw people call pandaren kung fu panda ripoffs

[brisk flax]

What's best way to deal with bloods with no BoP?

[ember arrow]

when they were in warcraft in 199something

[brisk flax]

and how many stacks

[ember arrow]

@brisk flax 3

mythic?

[brisk flax]

Heroic

[ember arrow]

ye

3

[sick sentinel]

#HordeLife

[brisk flax]

and as far as best way to manage the damage from it?

[ember arrow]

use cds

have healers spotheal

if healers are 🐒

then youre fricked

[signal plover]

Stay in melee to gen rage and IP

[ember arrow]

as warr u can at least use cds outside melee range

[brisk flax]

you wait to move out to drop pools until just before or you go early and sit there?

[ember arrow]

on dk its rip

[sick sentinel]

Spam IP

[brisk flax]

ya that's what i figured

[sick sentinel]

wait till last 3-4s to leap out and deposit your blood stacks. Spam IP until then.

Leap the last 3 sec

[ember arrow]

anyone else got the zandalari empire mount?

i feel its animations are way too fast

when walking

maybe its cuz my dk has 240% movespeed?

[chilly brook]

@ember arrow go make a level 1 panda just for kicks trust me when I say they have really cool combat animations

[ember arrow]

i know they do

but i wanted a dk

and they cant be

[tranquil kraken]

:(

[ember arrow]

i dont hate pandas griff

all good

i think theyre dope

k i just got exalted with

azeroth

waht does it give?

[signal plover]

Nothing

[sick sentinel]

A 355 helm with IF and az veins

[signal plover]

Nothing

[ember arrow]

355

i got 3 385 azerites

[signal plover]

#blessed

[sick sentinel]

And the zandalari mount is so amazing because it has a fast animation

[ember arrow]

it looks weird

when standing still or walking

its good

but running looks waaay too fast

on alts, with 60% it looks good

[sick sentinel]

What race are you?

[ember arrow]

orc

[sick sentinel]

Use gamon

[ember arrow]

i dont have gamon

[sick sentinel]

Darkmoon firewater

[ember arrow]

i get what you say

but i dont wanna alter appearance

[sick sentinel]

It is slower on taurens

[ember arrow]

to make my mount look decent

[sick sentinel]

Or use it on a non dk non pala

[ember arrow]

well

thats not an option

[sick sentinel]

On my orc warrior the animations are just right

[ember arrow]

i literally got

dk and pala

[sick sentinel]

In my opinion ofc

[ember arrow]

also

his roar animation

the sound comes before the movement

[sick sentinel]

Didn't notice that actually

[sand egret]

My horse is totally fine.....

Horses don't roar...

[sick sentinel]

You like your 5 horses?

[sand egret]

i'm confused....ya'll have weird horses

(yak mount best mount)

[ember arrow]

about to get exalted

with tilanjis exp too

[sick sentinel]

The spIder is also nice

[ember arrow]

they got mount ye?

the fixate dude

as mount

[sick sentinel]

Ye

It can fly as well

[ember arrow]

o

really

it doesnt look like it can

lol

its like a giant tic

[sick sentinel]

All of the horde rep mounts are great

[sand egret]

Horses don't fly, get out of your weird fantasy world.

[sick sentinel]

Invincible can fly

[ember arrow]

so can paladin horse

thing

[sand egret]

those ain't REAL horses

them crazy undead fantasy horses and flashlight horses

spits in spittoon

[sick sentinel]

Trashsteed

Hearthsteed*

[kind urchin]

I had to race change from highmountain to orc so I could fit through doorways. Plus my mog looks better now. Big shoulders ftw.

[sick sentinel]

nightmare horses

[young harbor]

pvp set on orc this season, is hilarious

floating shoulders

[ember arrow]

they will fix it once bfa comes out

[zinc mauve]

NVM I'm a time traveler evidently

Don't mind me just getting back in my time machine

[radiant mortar]

Hey guys, quick question. Is there a pawn string for us prots ?

[signal plover]

There is not

[radiant mortar]

oh , ok thanks

[sick sentinel]

@radiant mortar just wear the highest ilvl item you have

[radiant mortar]

not Haste first ?

[grim prism]

Ilvl > all on armor pieces

Raw stat budget is often better than specific secondaries on jewelry

[radiant mortar]

ok will change my prio

[sick sentinel]

Haste only on comparing 2 pieces with the same ilvl

[radiant mortar]

and with arzerit armor? still ilvl oder skills

[grim prism]

You want one deafening crash piece

Otherwise yes

[crystal night]

Dudes last night I got my CD on shield block down to 12 seconds

[grim prism]

Wow wee, back to last expac's baseline 😂

[crystal night]

I'm bad at math. Is that 💯% uptime

[radiant mortar]

ok thanks for all the answers

[grim prism]

No thats 50% uptime max

[crystal night]

Ahh ok

Oh yes duh

That makes sense

[grim prism]

Lol

Even if you have two charges, they dont recharge concurrently so

[crystal night]

Yea

[sick sentinel]

100% uptime for 51 sec

[uneven mason]

sequential recharging - people forget this is a thing more often than not.

[crystal night]

What if they did recharge concurrently

Would we be OP?

[sick sentinel]

yes.

would need less haste then for constant block uptime vs the current design of the spell.

[uneven mason]

OP? Idunno

I think we'd still suffer from the same issues

We have effectively 100% block uptime

[crystal night]

I always thought not having 100% upti e on our AM was the main issue

[uneven mason]

No goodness

the fact our AM is not effective against many types of damage

like, melee attacks we have 0 fucks to give

[crystal night]

According to sco and frag that's the main issue

[uneven mason]

but "Shoot" and "Pyroblast" fuck us up

Dont...

just dont

[crystal night]

Yeah dude what's up with that shoot mechanic

[sick sentinel]

throw rock

at my current haste, SB is 15s recharge. making it concurrent, would only have to wait 3s for the next charge. LESS with ITF +15%, bloodlust, haste food, etc. Not to mention LS bolster windows, demo shout, etc.

[crystal night]

We can't block those ?

[uneven mason]

Throw rock

[sick sentinel]

would be too strong if concurrent.

and yeah throw rock will still kill us anyway.

[crystal night]

Yeah for sure

[sick sentinel]

😄

also, I've always wondered this, but never explored it

what causes an attack/ability to be "Deflected"?

[crystal night]

Spell reflect you mean?

[sick sentinel]

No. Deflected.

[crystal night]

I haven't seen that

[sick sentinel]

Not reflect or parry.

[crystal night]

Maybe party?

Damn uhh

[sick sentinel]

@fierce juniper @shut summit any idea @ "Deflected" means/from?

[prisma crane]

does a deflected attack even happen anymore?

[sick sentinel]

It does.

[ember arrow]

G L A N C I N G B L O W

[sick sentinel]

I've seen it not more since my ilvl has gone up.

[stark sage]

where did you see it? maybe its a defensive from one of the unique island NPCs

[quiet kettle]

avoidance

[sick sentinel]

I wonder if has something to do with parry, but idk for sure.

[crystal night]

Hmmm

[sick sentinel]

cus its worded differently.

I see it in mythics/+'s too.

I'd have to start SSing it.

[stark sage]

i have never seen it, do you use an english version of the game

or an addon

[sick sentinel]

But I've had that circumstance of "Deflected" attacks come up as long as I could remember since WOTLK

[quiet kettle]

deflect is the avoidance equivalent to parry, but for magical attacks using the melee hit table

[sick sentinel]

it is EN Client. 😛

Is that right?

I should prolly just google it up. But wondered first if anyone else here noticed too.

[quiet kettle]

thats literally what i just did

[sick sentinel]

I have only seen it with spell deflect

[quiet kettle]

its magical parry

[sick sentinel]

yeah @quiet kettle is correct. Its mentioned in wowwiki the same (although I know wowwiki is old/outdated these days)

interesting.

wonder if throw rock can be deflected.

[quiet kettle]

doesnt matter if its outdated

cause it's been around since parry

[sick sentinel]

ya

So that's why we can parry essence sear from mythraxx but not block it?

[carmine ibex]

so does deflect chance increase with parry chance? or: should I equip crit rings for tol dagor trash.

[old zephyr]

Maybe we should spec ravager then /s

[sick sentinel]

Crit and mastery's value increases in m+

Anyway

[quiet kettle]

deflect is built into parry, yes

i wouldn't rely on it tbh

[steady dock]

Hey guys, which is better, reinforced plating + lifespeed + resounding protection or bloodsport + ablative shielding + gemhide?

[quiet kettle]

pins has trait priority

[steady dock]

I know. Just can't really decide whether lifespeed outweights ablative shielding and gemhide

Just looking for a second opinion 😃

[sick sentinel]

I would go for option 2

Personally

[quiet kettle]

as unyun said, because ur not just comparing the secondary traits

but also the primary trait

and bloodsport is overall more useful than reinforced

[steady dock]

Aye, I was just holding onto the first one because haste 😄

Thanks for your input!

[carmine ibex]

saying "crit/mast increases in value in m+" is saying I should equip some crit/mast over haste/vers? or just vers?

[uneven mason]

ilvl is still going to lead

[carmine ibex]

of course

but I have alot of equal ilvl gear with haste, crit, and mast from my arms set.

[grim prism]

@carmine ibex we dont have an answer foe that

Marok has suggested that crit is very valuable in M+

But without sims we won't be able to accurstely determine relative value

[uneven mason]

its our highest stat for mitigation vs parryable damage

[carmine ibex]

I mean, I see the appeal of crit nd mast in m+, increased DPS, and increased chance of block/parry in AM windows to give your single healer a gcd back.

[uneven mason]

which, is a lot of damage in M+

[grim prism]

60-90% of an M+ is going to be blockable melees, depending on the dungeon

[uneven mason]

then you have waycrest

and TD

with SHoot and DOTs

🖕

[grim prism]

Usually more on the high end

[carmine ibex]

throw rock.

throw rock.

[uneven mason]

fffffffffffffffffffff

[carmine ibex]

throw rock.

[sick sentinel]

LoS

deflect rock

[carmine ibex]

I can swap out quite a bit of vers for crit or mast just from rings, I'm going to give it a shot tonight and compare logs with before, as well as the subjective metric of how many fuck-words my healer says in discord.

[sick sentinel]

I play with like 200 vers lol

[grim prism]

Yeah my vers is low af

But I only M+

[waxen talon]

Vers is very versatile 🦑

[sick sentinel]

Funny thing is, I pop jes in uldir and my array goes to vers

[grim prism]

And in four days I'll be completely unsubbed and probs leave this channel for the first time in two years

[sick sentinel]

And it skyrockets

[grim prism]

Err a year and 11 months

[chilly brook]

Big oof

[waxen talon]

what if they fix prot wars in 8.1

[sick sentinel]

I'm still having fun with bfa tbh

[chilly brook]

I don’t think his issue is with prot warrior

[grim prism]

Viability of prot war is the least of my complaints

I've already ranted at length

TLDR: bad endgame progression design imo, bad QC, bad communication

[lost mauve]

I main arms so my biggest complaint is not even how prot plays, it’s how tedious they have made gearing alt specs

[granite meadow]

Is it worth dropping deafening crash for a 45ilvl helm upgrade

[waxen talon]

i find it better than it was in the past

[grim prism]

No @granite meadow

[granite meadow]

thats what I thought

[waxen talon]

gearing alt specs*

[chilly brook]

Probably not @granite meadow

[granite meadow]

FeelsBadMan

[grim prism]

Yeah I dont have a problem gearing my alt, i have a problem gearing my main lol

[waxen talon]

if u care too much its a very annyoin design i guess

[lost mauve]

It’s better than in legion since you don’t have to level separate artifact weapons but it’s still not great

[waxen talon]

imo one of the major problems is

[lost mauve]

I have a problem with both, tbh, there is way too much RNG

[waxen talon]

how u gotta do all kinds of content to get best gear

[grim prism]

Yeah, i'm not even raiding atm so i'm not trying to hardline the grind, but the fact of the matter is our BiS azerite acquisition is entirely RNG-based

[waxen talon]

and i just dont have the time to sit there and conquest cap every week too

the fact we have a bis Azerite is what ruins it

deafning should get removed straight away.

[grim prism]

Gearing in general has too much RNG right now imo

More than ever before

[lost mauve]

Even when it benefits me it doesn’t feel that good

Like I got a heroic warforged Khor 2 weeks ago

ilvl 380

Should defeating heroic taloc warrant that quality of a weapon?

I don’t think so

[waxen talon]

i think the weapon drop design is amazing

since they cant titanforge

and +10 ilvl isnt thaaat major

[chilly brook]

@waxen talon uh no

[waxen talon]

like ur way better off just going mythic

[chilly brook]

DC shouldn’t be removed lul

How about we just make all the other traits good

[waxen talon]

DC is straight up broken compare to the others

make it baseline or some crap and throw the trait back where it came from

[chilly brook]

Or all the others are simply bad comparatively design wise?

[waxen talon]

u know most dps specs use neutral ones these days.

[sick sentinel]

My endgame right now is pushing raider.io score

[chilly brook]

DC is literally the only interesting trait we have

[waxen talon]

all traits are boring and weak

[chilly brook]

Yea let’s not make them all boring k thx

[waxen talon]

dude

+45ilvl not upg cuz u lose deafning

[light oasis]

Idk the way they’ve handled broken Azerite on other classes is to nerf them down

[chilly brook]

Might as well just remove the system tbh

[waxen talon]

most other classes are nowhere near that.

ilvl is upg for most classes

[light oasis]

I know. And I think the redesign is the only reason DC is still there

[waxen talon]

deafning has a broken baseline effect that makes it stupidly strong

make a new circle

and add likes of DC there

dont put DC on current circle where it doesnt fit.

[chilly brook]

I don’t think many would agree with you on removal of DC

[waxen talon]

Do u enjoy having to wear 1 low ilvl DC piece?

if no, then its just a stupid design.

[light oasis]

I think his point is the affect makes the spec feel good and work better. Not that he enjoys that it’s mandatory

[waxen talon]

keep the trait effect, add its elsewhere, like one of the 100 useless talents we have?

yea all traits should be lik that

but none of the current are

[chilly brook]

TBH I don’t care about ilvl

I care about using the best gear that I can

If that means I sacrifice ilvl I really don’t care

[waxen talon]

i enjoy gettin new gear

i hate looking at my equipment and seeing a 340 sit there.

i hate having to wear the same piece i got from pre raid release, til the raid tier end.

[blissful pebble]

If it were stackable it would neec to be adjusted. But you need only 1.

[sick sentinel]

play assa rogue you will have 3 340 pieces

welcome to bfa my dude

[chilly brook]

^lul

[waxen talon]

most DPS traits are gettin caught up by secondary stat procing neutral ones now.

cuz they scale way worse

[blissful pebble]

Also you can get a 355/360 piece guaranteed with minimal effort.

[grim prism]

@chilly brook the problem is that every trait that actually modifies rotation has been nerfed for being too good

[tulip arch]

They just need to stop tying gear progression to whatever progression for abilities they have in an expansion

[lost mauve]

Besides gearing my only gripe with prot right now is the fact that there is one and only one viable talent build, and if you deviate from it you are making yourself completely unviable

[chilly brook]

@grim prism yea because we can’t have fun

[grim prism]

DC only missed the nerfbat because only 5% of tanks plat prot lul

[waxen talon]

@grim prism the whole current circle layout we have shouldnt affect ur rotation too much, they should add another circle and then make it full of those

[lost mauve]

Like if you take sudden death over skullsplitter for arms, you take a DPS hit but you don’t make your class non viable

[waxen talon]

having half the traits modify ur rotation or be required is straight up stupppid.

[sick sentinel]

DC is so good because of our current talent build

[chilly brook]

We just shouldn’t have azerite gear

The system is bad

[lost mauve]

Like, imagine prot warrior without bolstering and anger management

[chilly brook]

TBH all traits should have something to do with your rotation

[waxen talon]

Still more interesting than having a chestpiece with 100 haste and 200 crit.

[grim prism]

d u m p s t e r

[chilly brook]

Hello it’s like the only way to actually have the traits somewhat intuitive

[waxen talon]

Thats exactly why blizzard announced a new circle commin soon.

not defending them but its not like theyre unaware of how messy it is

[chilly brook]

Not 20 different generic traits that have a chance to proc x affect which you can’t possibly know if it’s a good choice or not

So you’re forced to sim even though blizz doesn’t want you to have to sim to see if it’s an upgrade

[waxen talon]

then again

[tranquil kraken]

the best effects are ones like "spawns a servant of fuckface to fuck your enemies faces for 7 seconds"

[waxen talon]

for most specs ilvl > effect

[chilly brook]

It’s an illogical system and arguing for more illogical decisions is bad

[tranquil kraken]

what the hell does that do for me?

[waxen talon]

but u would have to sim which of the 2 traits ironicly.

[chilly brook]

That’s what I’m saying

[tranquil kraken]

Usually that will be on a trinket but I never understood how anyone is supposed to know if one of those "summons a temporary pet thing" is actually any good lol

[waxen talon]

that is why they are making a new circle tier again.

this circle we are in are supposed to be generic fucktard shit like ^

[chrome harbor]

we have no ETA of that new circle do we?

[chilly brook]

No they’re making a new circle tier to lessen the impact traits have

[frosty wedge]

8.1

new circle tier

[chilly brook]

Or rather to make it easier to acquire useful traits

[tranquil kraken]

I thought it was just to double up on first-tier traits

[waxen talon]

and that circle will be impactfull non generic traits.

[chilly brook]

Yes @tranquil kraken

[tranquil kraken]

so that each piece will have two, making more pieces have the "good" traits you want

[chilly brook]

Yes

[frosty wedge]

two choices per spec

[chrome harbor]

I coulda sworn they said they were doubling the out ring for now and in 8.1 they would be adding in more spec specific ones

[tranquil kraken]

I thought it was a combination of things

double outer ring + more "outer ring" traits added

[sick sentinel]

Like the one that gives us mastery and casts IP when we cast avatar

[chilly brook]

The new ring is literally just to make it easier to get the traits we want

[waxen talon]

that is pretty boring but yeaa its not super generic and passive

[chilly brook]

Nothing more

[sick sentinel]

It affects gameplay

It's something you notice

[velvet sandal]

What is it that makes prot so undertuned, and do you think the new mastery is going to help? I'm in a casual heroic raiding guild and we had to swap our prot warrior for a DH on Zul because he was getting trucked so hard in phase 2.

[chrome harbor]

the only real traits i notice are the 'drops a pool you stand in' traits. or lazer matrix because it goes pew pew

[tranquil kraken]

p2 zul is something I'm curious about as well - I don't really know what tools other tanks have to deal with that damage

[waxen talon]

u notice laser matrix?
u mean the passive proc on hit to deal spread damge.

[tranquil kraken]

so I don't know if it's my fault, if prot suffers there, or if all tanks just have a hard time there

[mystic ferry]

Just get bopped

[sick sentinel]

@velvet sandal ok, he got trucked but it is survivable

[waxen talon]

i consider leech while ignoring pain more noticeable.

[sick sentinel]

Do you have logs?

[chrome harbor]

its hard not to notice lazer matrix, i splooge lazers and hit/heal everything on screen

[velvet sandal]

I do, one sec

[waxen talon]

yea but it has no effect on ur gameplay

[chilly brook]

All tanks get trucked in p2

[chrome harbor]

oh no of course not

[sand egret]

I see we're on my fav topic again 😃

[chilly brook]

It’s bleed damage there’s nothing you can do about it

[tranquil kraken]

Yeah, alright

[chrome harbor]

though ive had it break CC before, just assumed usuall BfA bugginess on that though

[velvet sandal]

@sick sentinel https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/NTqKg4yJ3xntazmP/#type=damage-done&fight=24

[waxen talon]

i dont think laser will ever be worth runnin in dungeons

[chilly brook]

Although he’s probably not staying on melee range and therefor is lacking rage generation to cast IP to help

[waxen talon]

its pretty shit when the damge spreads

would be 100 times better if it was just a ST hit + heal

[mystic ferry]

You had a fury on zul

[limber wigeon]

The classes that are strong in p2 zul are the ones that get increases on healing received. Other than that, most tanks seem to require around 40k hps.

[mystic ferry]

Why

[velvet sandal]

CASUAL heroic raiding guild. It was the alt of our 5th healer

[chrome harbor]

I just got a pvp chest from the emissary though, gives me the IP leech trait and i like it

[velvet sandal]

Then our prot warr swapped to fury when we brought in the DH

I've been interested in trying some prot tanking, but I want to be aware of the strengths and weaknesses before I start going for weapons

[uneven mason]

So like, we don't have any more issue on P2 Zul than any other tank

[lost mauve]

Physical damage mitigation is the obvious strength

[uneven mason]

Your healers need to be aware that the tanks are going to get destroyed

[mystic ferry]

Str: aoe dps weaknesses: actually tanking

[uneven mason]

and warriors need to be aware thaty they're going to get destroyed

and can't rely on your healers to keep you up through it

[chilly brook]

Damage seems normal

[uneven mason]

I take 4 stacks on Zul HC

[lost mauve]

Warriors are a pretty good choice on fetid, for example

[chilly brook]

But two of your healers seem low

[uneven mason]

I was having a hard time with it

Until

[prisma crane]

if you can, find paladins, leap out after 3/4 stacks, BoP to remove it, repeat

[uneven mason]

We kicked 2 of our healers and replaced them

[mystic ferry]

Warriors are so bad on fetid compared to say monks or dks

[velvet sandal]

Once we had a solid BoP rotation from our pallies it helped

[uneven mason]

0_o

[tranquil kraken]

Heh

[waxen talon]

bop rotation for HC?

[chilly brook]

Warriors are great on fetid? 🤔

Hello

[uneven mason]

g8b8m8

[ruby sapphire]

Full melee fight nah dude warriors are bad

[waxen talon]

External calling + gameplay should be way more than enouhg.

[uneven mason]

So basically on Zul, generally the issue isn't the tanks

[chrome harbor]

unless its positioning

[uneven mason]

its the fact that the healers have their heads up their ass

[frosty wedge]

on zul, no - no tanks deal with bleeds well

[tranquil kraken]

Alright haha

[uneven mason]

and don't understand that both tanks requir healing

That was literally what was killing me on Zul

[velvet sandal]

Okay. I really think we could do it with our prot warrior main tank, just wanted to get feedback from y'all.

[ruby sapphire]

Tanks die because of bad healers

[uneven mason]

the healers would stop healing when the other tank taunted

[frosty wedge]

"oh he's not tanking, I guess I cans top healing him"

[tranquil kraken]

Well, I'll try to work with the healers and get them to understand they need to be prepared for that

[uneven mason]

but at 3-4 stacks the previous tank is taking MORE DAMAGE than the new tank

[lost mauve]

Maybe I was just getting healer carried, but I did not struggle with heroic fetid the other night

[chrome harbor]

should vectis have taught them that? I feel like I took more dmg when I wasn't tanking due to the dot

[uneven mason]

Also save SW for when you get your last stack (whatever you swap at)

[waxen talon]

why wouldnt a class like pala be way better at dealign with offtanking zul

[uneven mason]

but yeah taking 4 stacks on ZUl, once I realized the problem I just kept repeating in Discord that "Both tanks need healing, keep healing Mac, keep healing, keep healing, ok BLEEDS OFF, TANKING NOW - MORE HEALING TO Inny!"

[waxen talon]

self heals, armor to lower bleed damge

bubble himself.

[uneven mason]

Because he's taking the difference in damage from Zul's melee

but you are right

they don't have to call for BoPs

but as for dealing wit the bleed damage itself

they're no different than warriors

[waxen talon]

again, i dont think ignore pain nor shield block will help u with anything.

[uneven mason]

IP helps A TON

[waxen talon]

i think ur better off playing paladin to counter ur own bleed dot.

[uneven mason]

staying in melee and pumping IPs while taking ticks is an amazing amount of reduced damage

[ruby sapphire]

Just leap out get instant bop?

[uneven mason]

more than the paladins self healing

[waxen talon]

i think ur better off playing druid to deal with ur dot too

i think ur better off playing monk to deal with ur dot too

[uneven mason]

Monks die to Zul easier than warriors properly played, since the DoT will kill them

[sick sentinel]

Got through a p2 log

[waxen talon]

the core mitigation of most tanks is armor tho

[chrome harbor]

does the maghar racial take a tick off of that?

[uneven mason]

it caps stagger and then ticks through them.

[waxen talon]

and we cant even block a bleed.

[uneven mason]

None of the racials affect Zul's bleed

[sick sentinel]

Dude did not cast IP when he had thr stakcs

And cast revenge

Also no shield wall

[uneven mason]

Yeah, when you have the bleed 9but not the boss) on Zul you swap to 100% Rage into IP spam

its how you deal with it

it makes a staggering difference

[chrome harbor]

not sure if monk pun...

[uneven mason]

and its staggering how many warriors just absolutely suck at doing it

Monks meta is because stagger cannot kill you

so you can eat a massive mechanic

and live

as long as you don't take more damage

its a huge safety net (what warriors lack)

Zul's bleed will kill you

going 🖕 your stagger

[chrome harbor]

tbh I like the mobility a warrior has for it, pump up the IP, then leap out and intercept back in

[uneven mason]

right

that is the correct way (without a BOP) to do it

[chrome harbor]

i feel like people always leave out a warriors mobility when talking tank strengths

[uneven mason]

eh

because there are 2 other tanks better at it

we're middle road mobility

VDH and Monk both beat us

[ruby sapphire]

If you don't have bop then make a healer escort you

[sick sentinel]

@velvet sandal tell that warrior to hang out here more often

[chrome harbor]

screw the leather tanks

[sick sentinel]

He did not cast ignore pain once

[uneven mason]

Yeah IP is crucial

[sand egret]

:shocked:

[sick sentinel]

Or shield wall the bleed

[uneven mason]

don't buy the "IP is bad" meme

[chrome harbor]

howd he get to zul without using IP

[uneven mason]

Because warriors are strong

[sick sentinel]

Spending all his rage to revenge

[prisma crane]

i mean, IP is bad, but you should still use it

[uneven mason]

vs everything but that fucking DOT

IP isn't bad

it performs its function

[chrome harbor]

idk i dont think id want to do vectis without IP

[uneven mason]

its just weaker than we'd like it ot be

[sand egret]

^

[uneven mason]

Vectis on HC isn't horrifyingly bad

[prisma crane]

substantially weaker

[uneven mason]

like, as long as you're not a flipperhanded monkey and eat a ton of stacks

Vectis damage is rather lackluster

its the rest of the raid that gets trucked by contaigien

[chrome harbor]

then i guess my healers just like palying chicken with my health

[uneven mason]

we can literally spell reflect every contaign

and we shouldn't get omega ever

so our damage relative to raid, goes down

[chrome harbor]

yea ill usually SR then take the rest of the edge off with IP after SR fades

[uneven mason]

over the course of that fight

[sick sentinel]

Vectis HC is a healer boss

[velvet sandal]

Thanks Captain. I'll relay the message

[sick sentinel]

We chill

[prisma crane]

on mythic we should be trying to get omega vector every time our SR is up

[chrome harbor]

true, im just OCD about always trying to min/max mit. possibly too much

[velvet sandal]

I really want to play some prot. Monk tanking is so boring... and then there is this https://www.peakofserenity.com/2018/10/09/the-fetid-log/

Feel like there is a lot more room for good play as a warrior

[sand egret]

yeah we were talking about that earlier

[uneven mason]

@prisma crane Right but we're talking about HC

[prisma crane]

it's more that there's a lot less room for bad play as a warrior

[limber wigeon]

Does heroic vectis even really do damage? I've never felt threatened by that boss.

[prisma crane]

if you dont decide to soak all his lines in transition, he doesnt really, no

[uneven mason]

Yeah basically if your raid is spacially aware enough to dodge lines

you'll down him no problem

his tank damage unless you're massively undergeared isn't even worth noting

he's all about that raid damage

and if you're properly cycling CDs to deal with contaigen bursts

[half merlin]

https://gyazo.com/51b2b1e11a26bb6d7a3303417e685492

[uneven mason]

you won't even notice that

[half merlin]

any idea what to do here?

[uneven mason]

yeah use the 385 and the seal of loyalties

[gray parrot]

only PVE? keep the Pulsing Veins IMO

[half merlin]

only pve

[uneven mason]

seal is gonna be stronger

[gray parrot]

i mean you could argue it both ways

[uneven mason]

but its

hairline

at best

[gray parrot]

the crit on Seal is good

for sure

[uneven mason]

seal has more haste and crit isn't dumpster

[gray parrot]

but yea...its a VERY marginal difference i think

[uneven mason]

its just not as good as the others

[outer dew]

I mean

[uneven mason]

we're talking like, microscopic difference

[outer dew]

Do tanks ever really have a complete dumpster stat

??

[uneven mason]

crit for us during Legion

but that was more because of BC

[gray parrot]

vers is pretty garbo

[outer dew]

???

Vers is great

Wdym

[gray parrot]

i mean for warriors

in general

not prot

[half merlin]

love me some haste vers

[gray parrot]

but we in prot channel so vers isnt not the worst

[outer dew]

It's one of the little ways we can deal with magic damage and flat out have mitigation during haps

[gray parrot]

i guess crit is the worst in terms of prot?

[outer dew]

If my ass gets smacked by another earthlance for 65-80k I'm gonna cry

[digital arrow]

picked up a 370 back with only crit and mastery last night 😦

[gray parrot]

i can tell you how to instantly get better drops

spend the $7k on ring enchants

then go raid

the Blue Gods will drop an upgrade for that slot immediately wasting your enchant

[prisma crane]

Murphy agrees with you

[gray parrot]

has happened to me twice in two weeks

[frosty wedge]

yeah my monk got the exact same 385 chest 2 weeks in a row, i almost rage unsubbed

[outer dew]

I'd be okay with that tbh

Both of those

I'd be okay

At least I got higher ilvl ring

And now I got a az for off spec

[frosty wedge]

my ilvl has been stuck at 365 for 3 weeks and I"ve been spam running high keys and doing normal/heroic raid each week

lol

[outer dew]

I mean

[gray parrot]

I ran 7/8 heroic bosses last night...used both rerolls

[outer dew]

Unless you get az pieces from m+ chest

And don't raid mythic

[gray parrot]

0/2 on rerolls...and the only upgrade i got was a 370 ring that replaced a 365

[outer dew]

I think most people stuck around 370

[gray parrot]

im only at 363 ilvl 😦

[outer dew]

Is where you run into a gear wall

[frosty wedge]

I'm using a 345 weapon

2x 355 rings

[gray parrot]

i have a 340 shield

i reroll on Vectis (or whichever one drops the shield aside from Ghuun) EVERY WEEK

[outer dew]

Just whisper the guild prot paladin and tell him to get the shield for you

[gray parrot]

everyone knows i need it

[outer dew]

My prot off spec jumped from 366->372

:D

[frosty wedge]

:/

[outer dew]

Off a weapon/shield/shoulder

[gray parrot]

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/character/stonemaul/theoctane

[frosty wedge]

I also ended up getting screwed by the RNG of the emmisary.

[gray parrot]

my poopoo items

[frosty wedge]

and got a 355 az piece

[outer dew]

Do you PvP at all?

[gray parrot]

I do

[outer dew]

There's a DC 355 shoulders atm

[frosty wedge]

I have a 370 DC helm

[outer dew]

Rip

[frosty wedge]

lol

[gray parrot]

Tofu check my link

i got the 355 DC shoulders on from pvp

my issue is my wep/shield are 350/340

[uneven mason]

I should do some PVP and get those

would let me use my 370 chest ><

[outer dew]

Rng Isa part of it

375 weapon/370 shield

[gray parrot]

im jelly

i have rerolled for a weapon/shield 9 times without either so far

[uneven mason]

370 shield 355 weapon

[frosty wedge]

I have 370 weap/shield from warfront and weekly mythic+ emmisary

[gray parrot]

ive been trying to find a new wep for arms or prot for weeks

[uneven mason]

I've gotten 2 370 2h

[gray parrot]

this is how sad i am...get this

[uneven mason]

no upgrades for prot

[gray parrot]

i had not done Kings Rest yet

joined a regular mythic...not even keystone

just to learn...and got a 350 2H from the last boss

[frosty wedge]

<

[gray parrot]

how sad as a 361 prot at the time...i get an upgrade from a mythic KR

i wanted to kms

[frosty wedge]

my monk, who I'm playing msot often right now... has a 345 weapon from warfront

it was my highest ilvl piece when i got it.

I have run probably.... 20 either KR, TD, UR, etd

not a single weapon drop

[gray parrot]

yea weps and shield are impossible for me to find

[carmine ibex]

I was using a 310 shield at 360 ilvl, spamming m+, no luck. then there was a 340 emissary, I did that, got the 340 shield. then had 3x 355 shields drop from m+ the next day.

ML, TD, and Under shields. back to back.

[next ermine]

would ilvl 370 gear with archive be better than a 340 with DC?

i already have a 370 archive with helm

[gray parrot]

yea ive run ML like 5 times in the last 3 weeks

no luck

i wish blacksmithing helped more with weps/shields

[frosty wedge]

nope, you need a DC @next ermine

[grim prism]

@next ermine no

[gray parrot]

i feel like this is an AA meeting for prot warriors

"Hi....My Name is Octane...
crowd response 'Hi Octane'
I have been weapon drop free for 22 days now..."
crowd claps

[mellow bridge]

I did it lads

[ionic ridge]

Ion just mentionned DC in the Q&A 😮

[mellow bridge]

I overcame the 1k raider score bar gg

[ionic ridge]

THEY KNOW

[gray parrot]

they cant take DC

or nerf it

it can only be made better

[ionic ridge]

Nope

It will be made more available

[gray parrot]

good

[sand egret]

that's fine

[ionic ridge]

Meaning you'll probably have it on 4th trait, and frees up 5th ring

[sand egret]

DC is annoying in the sense that it's good and there's only so many pieces with it

[ionic ridge]

Agree

[next ermine]

its not that theres only so many pieces with it

[sand egret]

they just want to give you way more sources of it, so its not a pain point

[next ermine]

its the fact that you need massive rng to get a better piece with it

[sand egret]

also where you get them, but that's still a related product

which is azerite gear in terms of availability didn't scale as well since its sources above a certain ilvl were so limited

but I agree

[daring marlin]

I finally upgraded from the 340 DC helm last night

Now I’m in the DC 355 shoulder club

:^)

[next ermine]

is that from the pvp quest?

[daring marlin]

Yeah

[gray parrot]

Ion...

Generic traits are NOT going to make up for tank traits

[next ermine]

bleh i really dont wanna grind out 1 1/2 bars for those shoulders

[gray parrot]

do not suggest that is the intention...cause that is absurd

[next ermine]

but i should, for 15ilvl upgrade to shoulders

[daring marlin]

gogo 3s

[sick sentinel]

same @next ermine

so zzz

[gray parrot]

what is yall's heart lvl at?

[sick sentinel]

28 21%

[gray parrot]

28? jesus christ

i thought i was above avg at 25

[sick sentinel]

there are euros/russians at 32/33 I think

but they also do like expeditions nonstop daily

be aware those 4th/5th ring azerite armors being like 385-400+ ilvl will need like 32+ level necks im sure.

[uneven mason]

I'm starting to think that they started working on warriors, collected data

and found that the data showed that the problem wasn't with the spec

but it was that the vast majority of players are idiots

[chrome harbor]

mage forums learn that every new expansion where people have to level again but cant face tank

then bitch the class is undertuned

[uneven mason]

Use ice barrier

a lot

Also

kite

[chrome harbor]

or just dont let them hit you

lol

[sand egret]

@uneven mason that happens way more often that you think! I'm currently working on that same thing on my project haha

however, it'

's had to say "yall suck, git gud"

[oblique wolf]

@gray parrot I started two weeks ago and I am ~5% away from 25

[gray parrot]

jesus

[uneven mason]

that catchup mechanic

[gray parrot]

👏

[uneven mason]

its pretty amazing

[turbid dawn]

i have a question im kinda new, do you guys think Vengeance and Never Surrender is viable in mythics?

[sand egret]

Nope

[uneven mason]

No

🤢

[oblique wolf]

no. Booming voice is incredible

[sand egret]

Bolster is equally so

[uneven mason]

if I had a better emoji for showing me puking on my keyboard i'd use it

[turbid dawn]

aight thanks haha

[uneven mason]

Vengeance is a gain in no situation

[sand egret]

But real answer: the other options in each of those tiers just FAR outshine them to the point where you're playing a shadow of the spec

[uneven mason]

Never Surrender - what the literal fuck, I get nauseous reading that talent.

No I mean, Bladesong, thats true for Indom vs Bolster

[turbid dawn]

so i should try keep shield block up and spam ignore pain?

[uneven mason]

but NS is the only talent that I could actually say is FUCKING BAD

[sand egret]

SB > IP

[uneven mason]

well that and ravager

[oblique wolf]

what is the scaling for never surrender? how high does it go at hwat hp%

[sand egret]

IP is the wetnap. SB is the towel

[uneven mason]

Its linear Zairez

0% health to have 100% buff to IP

[digital arrow]

lol well put @sand egret

[oblique wolf]

wow....

that is awful

[uneven mason]

No kidding

[sand egret]

yep.

[uneven mason]

or if factoring server response times

-2% health to have 100% Buff to IP

[sand egret]

Prot talents need a lil' love in the sense that they're just old and crusty haha

[uneven mason]

Prot talents are fine

[sand egret]

psh

[next ermine]

I feel theres just no variety in prot talents

[uneven mason]

they're just the most perfect form of "Choice is an illusion"

[gray parrot]

^this

[sand egret]

look at the bolster tier and tell me which is the "new" one

[gray parrot]

Spazzle gets it

you have no choice

[uneven mason]

@next ermine There never has been

[turbid dawn]

and we run anger management in mythics is my last question lol

[gray parrot]

there is a path...and that is it

[next ermine]

i know

thats my point

[sand egret]

AM is mandatory

im putting mah foot down on that one

[uneven mason]

Name a single point in the game where we've had flexibility in our talents

[next ermine]

the only talent ive ever changed is itf and punish

[uneven mason]

You either used the meta build

or you suck

[turbid dawn]

gotcha

[sand egret]

uh

[uneven mason]

Punish only looks good on paper

[sand egret]

how can you say "Prot talents are fine" and then go make that statement

[uneven mason]

ITF will beat it in all logical tanking situationas

[sand egret]

it's completely contradictory

[uneven mason]

Because Bladesong

[fair brook]

You run a diff. Tank in mythics. I love prot but damn, I finally leveled my BDK and I can do 10s with zero effort compared to prot.

[uneven mason]

Its literally been that way since the game came out

there was 1 concrete build

[sand egret]

that isnt fine

[uneven mason]

But its how its always been

and always has been

and always will be

[fair brook]

Doesn’t make it right

[uneven mason]

There is no tank right now with flexibility

[sand egret]

if i had to shoot myself in the dick with a nailgun everyday to get out of bed for years, doesn't make it fine

Talents are built around the notion of choice. If there is none, then it's fundamentally not fine.

[uneven mason]

Nono, Blade you have it the other way

[fair brook]

“New update: removing nail guns from prot rotation....”

[uneven mason]

So, To get out of bed you use the meta build

[gray parrot]

any of yall tank (H) Ghuun?

[uneven mason]

if you don't you get shot in the dick with a nailgun

[sand egret]

Just because one build works, doesn't make talents fine

[uneven mason]

Yeah Octane

But our talents are fine, I'd go so far as to say our talents are fucking overpowered

[gray parrot]

i know im not playing perfect but i felt like I was getting hit like a truck

[uneven mason]

Because Ghuun hurts

he doesn't fuck around

[gray parrot]

my counter tank is a 373 DK

[uneven mason]

got logs?

[fair brook]

You were. Try it on BM monk and laugh

[uneven mason]

BM monk gets trucked just as hard

but can't die between tank swaps

[gray parrot]

yea let me get them

[uneven mason]

😉

[fair brook]

I have no issues on monk, prot sucks healers dry on ghun

[uneven mason]

TFW BrM requires more ERHPS

[gray parrot]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/CGtJn326LHFNzAcM/#fight=last

[uneven mason]

if you're OOMing your healers as prot

either they're healing like ass

or your playing like ass

[fair brook]

Right, right, which is why everyone takes prot for prog

You’re blind, fanboy

[gray parrot]

I was trying to look at that Mactier

[fair brook]

Gotta admit those blind spots, even if ya love warrior

[gray parrot]

there were several times in the last pull where I wasnt healed for like 12s

[chilly brook]

Yo fam you do Mythic g’huun @fair brook?

[neon tangle]

Seems like you have some gaps in SB in there

[gray parrot]

and I feel like...that cant be good

[neon tangle]

and overlapped SB w/ LS

[gray parrot]

but I also know several times where I def fukt up my rotations

[fair brook]

Don’t need to, check those that are

[chilly brook]

Ok

Cuz I have

Aka Sense

And he doesn’t drain his healers mana

At all

[gray parrot]

noob question sadbox

overlapping SB/LS is bad?

[sand egret]

yep

[gray parrot]

fuk

[sand egret]

if you have Bolster

[gray parrot]

lol

[sand egret]

then youre blocking when blocking

[neon tangle]

@gray parrot They both cause you to block every attack

[sand egret]

its effectively hitting SB twice

[chilly brook]

@fair brook so don’t come in here and spout nonsense

[gray parrot]

ok that will help immensely

[sand egret]

imho, it's on eof the biggest (i do this ALL the time) mistakes a Prot can make

[gray parrot]

you probably see me stack them a lot lol

[sand egret]

as you lose a SB charge on the backend

[gray parrot]

eof?

one of...got it

[neon tangle]

@gray parrot Generally speaking as prot what you should do is keep SB up as much as possible, and then use LS, SW, etc to bridge the gaps

[sand egret]

LS's main use is to allow your SB charges to recharge

it lasts 15 seconds

[neon tangle]

^^^

[sand egret]

which is 1 charge

[gray parrot]

ah

ok

[sick sentinel]

did Ion just say no prot class changes in 8.1?

2 charges for me.

at my haste.

[gray parrot]

what is your haste?

[stone imp]

He literally just said prot class changes in PTR

[signal plover]

Lol

[stone imp]

"soon"

[sick sentinel]

"further in the spectrum"

after 8.1

typically I wait 3ish seconds after my last shield block charge too to get some HP umf out of LS, along with the 15s block.

[gray parrot]

im at 17% while solo before buffs

[neon tangle]

@gray parrot You can also probably keep your demo shout up longer

[gray parrot]

yea last night i had very poor demo %

was like 35% or something during the time when Ghuun was out

I wasnt using it when i wasnt tanking

[sick sentinel]

https://gyazo.com/ba768ce359bb46e380955edc5f3419bc

I lied 14s.

but thats with 15% ITF

im 1,207 haste rating tho.

[neon tangle]

You also spent like 30s w/ capped rage at one point

[gray parrot]

what should I use to burn rage?

i normally use LS

[sick sentinel]

IP.

[neon tangle]

IP

[gray parrot]

or IP

rather

not LS

ok

[signal plover]

LS doesn't cost rage...

[gray parrot]

so im doing that right

[neon tangle]

use IP or Revenge if IP is worthless (i.e. will be capped)

[sick sentinel]

IP, to keep it up/capped. If its still green/full (speaking of the IP weak aura), do a revenge. sure.

[strong forum]

potential prot warrior changes
coming soon™ on ptr

[neon tangle]

But capping rage means you're not getting the most out of anger management

[sick sentinel]

hope its just some talent changes.

[neon tangle]

which means your CDs will take longer to come off CD

[sick sentinel]

Im not looking/wanting for any big changes.

[chilly brook]

I don’t want to look @strong forum

[sick sentinel]

I like where we are.

[strong forum]

its not patch notes

[chilly brook]

I know

[strong forum]

ah

[chilly brook]

But I don’t want to look

I’m scared

[signal plover]

Prolly get something to look at tomorrow

[sand egret]

oooh ok I kinda like the viewpoint

[sick sentinel]

expecting them more likely to fuck shit up.

[strong forum]

idk im looking forward to it

[sand egret]

we're totally gonna get "easier" to play, unfortunate for some

[sick sentinel]

as thats their track record w/ warrs.

[gray parrot]

my normally rotation is pull...demo -> SB -> SS-> TC -> IP

and i try and keep SB and IP up as often as possible

[sand egret]

but I expect us to get more "tools" and utility (going off of Ion's response just now)

[signal plover]

U should avatar before demo

[neon tangle]

^^^

[sand egret]

Avatar before you charge

[strong forum]

i dont want to be easier, just more competetive vs bdks in m+

[gray parrot]

why?

[neon tangle]

Avatar -> Charge -> Demo -> TC

[signal plover]

Assuming u have DC trait

[sick sentinel]

'as often as possible' you should know the mechanics when you should SB or not. Dont just always mindlessly spam your skills.

[sand egret]

charge has a .5 GCD

[frank atlas]

Avatar while you charge monkaTOS

[chilly brook]

Avatar->intercept-TC-Demo

[sick sentinel]

I charge my party. Free rage.

Avatar > Heroic leap.

[sand egret]

then we got this guy ☝ haha

[chilly brook]

You really don’t need double charge rage

TBH

[sick sentinel]

serves me fine. Simplifies pulls, never rage issues, never threat issues.

[gray parrot]

how can i tell if the main issue is my rotation or healers messing up?

[sick sentinel]

no threat of dying.

[gray parrot]

I know ill never be perfect

but i wanna make sure I know if its mainly me or if I just need to be patient with healers as they learn

[sand egret]

you can tell by your own mitigation usage, we can only do so much after all

[chilly brook]

If you got logs I can tell you whether it’s you or the healer

[sand egret]

the flipside is that it's painfully obvious as a warrior when you do mess up

[sick sentinel]

mhm.

[sand egret]

Bwomsamdi will be telling ya so

[gray parrot]

i have logs

there is so much i dont know how to interpret

this is damage taken during the time Ghuun is out

[neon tangle]

lol I love how they're like "yeah but we can't just change stuff without a lot of advanced notice"

[gray parrot]

the DK is tanking so much more

[neon tangle]

As they do that, warriors get dicked for a whole raid tier

[gray parrot]

do they just not mitigate as much?

[chilly brook]

Throw me a link

[sick sentinel]

DK is also near maximum active more.

this doesn't show all the details though. such as ability usage etc

[chilly brook]

^

Like I said throw us a link

[gray parrot]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/CGtJn326LHFNzAcM/#fight=last&type=summary&start=10957353&end=11203966

i know 100% I can get better

but im just trying to understand all the factors/variables i have to work with

i dont think our healers do assigned healing...i think its kind of a FFA. Not sure if that is ideal or not

the last time I raided was Vanilla...and I was a healer and we had assigned groups of who we healed

[uneven mason]

You're overusing IP

you're not using SB properly

[gray parrot]

i try and use SB basically off CD if i have aggro

[uneven mason]

you use last stand when you were no longer taking melee (its block)

you were using SB after you got aggro

so it overlapped with the other tank getting hit

[chilly brook]

Your SB casts seem kinda low tbh

[uneven mason]

you went over 15s witout using SB

while being beat on

[chilly brook]

Your avatar casts are really low

[gray parrot]

yea i dont use avatar as much as i should

i know that for sure

[chilly brook]

Only 2 casts the whole fight

[jagged bay]

hey guys quick question: would you take a 2nd time archieve of the titans or brace for impact? (helm from mother)

[uneven mason]

You're REALLY not optimizing DS uptime

[jagged bay]

385

[chilly brook]

You should probably be about twice the amount of Shield Block casts as you have

[uneven mason]

You're only gaining 4 seconds

meaning you're not stacking it with Avatar atall

you have 1 shield wall

the entire fight

[gray parrot]

ok im confused

[uneven mason]

should have 3+

[gray parrot]

how does avatar matter as much as you all are suggesting

[chilly brook]

Your casts

My casts

For reference

[uneven mason]

last stand should be way more (like 6)

[steel mauve]

With our dc trait and unstoppable force you extend demo shout by 2 seconds every thunderclap

[neon tangle]

@gray parrot Avatar (with the talent) will reduce the CD on TC by 50%