i prefer it over Jes' holwer
#protection
old zephyr
primal crypt
Youre set
sick sentinel
why not use both?
old zephyr
blocades is strong
sick sentinel
well it comes to a point that it is "only" 355 ilvl
old zephyr
atal trinket gives that "did someone just use BL, oh no I just got a nic eproc"
sick sentinel
and I would rather get more str
old zephyr
if it proc over 370 why not
primal crypt
Blockades is better
old zephyr
i wouldn't bother for 15 ilvl
primal crypt
Unless 370
stuck oxide
365 howler + is way better
junior igloo
Stat trinkets can't really compete defensively.
Blockades, Bandages and Veiled Eye are the best defensive trinkets by a decent margin.
primal crypt
Veiled eye has worked out really well
junior igloo
Offensively you want Fathoms (it beats every 385 I think, there are few trinkets that are better at 400) + something on-use.
Not sure what lines up well with ~50-55 s Avatar.
chilly brook
Can’t sim prot but I can sim other specs with other trinkets 🙃
primal crypt
Any other trinkets you come across you only use if you don't have better
junior igloo
Yeah, extrapolating a bit from other tanks and stuff, but I think it's fairly accurate
stuck oxide
Disc of Systematic Regression is very good for m+
chilly brook
But shouldn’t fathoms also be very good for m+?
chilly brook
But yea it’s basically fathoms/blockades for me
junior igloo
Well I guess I can be satisfied with my options
chilly brook
Noice
primal crypt
Not bad
stuck oxide
With sockeeeeet
chilly brook
I got a 365 sporepods with a socket 🙃
Honestly that trinket could be a competitor if they upped the proc
Doesn’t proc nearly enough
timber nest
is blockades not worth using anymore?
chilly brook
It’s still worth using?
junior igloo
It is
chilly brook
We just said that blockades is best defensively
sand egret
I asked this before but could anyone clarify how absorb/shield effects interact with IP? Does the absorb get applied first then the IP shield? Does IP take the 50% and the subsequent 50% gets eaten by the other absorb (trinket effects, etc)?
chilly brook
Absorb first
prisma crane
@chilly brook Sense was saying on stream that in M+ he doesnt use fathoms unless maybe it's a tyrannical week, since for aoe there are better options, but for ST it's strong
and since you cant change trinkets in M+
primal crypt
For higher keys you want to be using defensive trinkets like blockades
prisma crane
kinda left without options
sand egret
so if I take a 10,000 damage hit and have a 5k trinket absorb and a 10k IP up. I'd take 5k to my trinket absorb then 2.5k to IP and 2.5k to your hp?
chilly brook
This gear swapping this is stupid
jovial reef
even for low keys the healing is nice
prisma crane
@primal crypt not always, since you'll not be able to face tank shit anyways, so unless it's a tyrannical week where you really need it, idk, otherwise i'd rather have the dmg
primal crypt
True true
prisma crane
and yea, it's pretty lame to not at least be able to swap trinkets or something
primal crypt
Guess it depends on the pulls
I've been rolling with veiled eye
Guess it depends on the pulls
I've been rolling with veiled eye
frosty wedge
not being able to swap gear at all is just dumb - as is not being able to trade ilvl upgrades
primal crypt
Just for the extra oh shit
chilly brook
But hey small indie company and stuff
frosty wedge
I've had so many instances where soemthing rolls for a DPS With way better traits for me, etc and we can't trade gear
jovial reef
bring back ML bring back gear swapping and make azerite drop in m+
bfa fixed in 3 easy steps
devs hate him!
chilly brook
I mean you’re right tho
earnest zinc
ML shouldn't be in pugs because there would be a lot of ninja looters.
jovial reef
agreed
earnest zinc
In guilds it should
jovial reef
but ML should be an option for guilds
frosty wedge
just make changing loot type not a thing after a run has started
jovial reef
there was nothing wrong with ML the way it worked in legion 😦
sand egret
bind loot type to the lockout
jovial reef
18 (out of 20?) had to be from the guild to use ML
bronze lance
yea but the problem with ML was that even with guilds they were screwing people over on low pop servers and stuff
but i agree give ML back
frosty wedge
I honestly don't see a reason azerite can't tianforge
ancient reef
they need to let traits be on all gear and yopu pick
sand egret
that I get
bronze lance
you could always put need/greed back and then use it as a fake ML system
frosty wedge
why?
ancient reef
it being random is dumb af
bronze lance
azerite traits arnt random
sand egret
TF'ing azerite traits puts too much variance in the system in terms of balance
as the traits scale in level
earnest zinc
The answer to that is to have a blacklist of all the ninja looters that tracks their name and server for a year. It will update if they name change or server transfer.
sand egret
it's been abundantly clear that Blizz doesn't want people to sim shit (which people will still do)
frosty wedge
just have the traits scale to the level that they titanforged to?
sand egret
so that direction is the opposite of what the system is trying to do (note: trying)
it's the scaling that is the issue. HOWEVER, to play my own devil's advocate
the TF system for azerite could ratchet to tier levels
bronze lance
remove forging
sand egret
and then you'd have at least conistent scaling. But then we're back to people griping about raids being trivial compared to M+
so it's a tough call
frosty wedge
man, they're trying to aim the game at casuals, but they're gating three pieces of gear behind raids
or a low chance weekly
There is no reason that what SHOULD be my three most powerful pieces are my three lowest ilvl pieces
sand egret
I don't think they're aiming at "casuals" per se (god I fucking hate that term)
but rather they want to make a much lower impact system of choice
old zephyr
meanwhile we keep DC no matter the Ilvl
sand egret
unfortunately, they continuously underestimate the somewhat irrationality that gamers possess
coral marsh
still people maining prot?`
frosty wedge
yeah
earnest zinc
Ironically it's required more than it used to be. Old talents could be figured out from knowing the basics of your class. Gearing was also more straightforward with most classes getting hit (and exp if melee) capped and just going for a priority that doesn't change often.
sand egret
yeah valid point
earnest zinc
You might have had a few points wrong but it would be mostly right.
sand egret
more obfuscated procs mean it's inherently harder to see
but it's the need to see
that I think is the more interesting issue they're dealing with
frosty wedge
speaking of which - can we talk about how shitty of n idea shimmering haven was?
let's give 90% of things a swirly on the ground mechanic that you have to move out of - then give tanks a trait that puts a giant pool on the ground that obfuscates every other effect
blissful imp
Haven't had that issue with it myself
Everything had a cast time these days too. Just move
sand egret
haha yeah, that proc and the fact that Tar Trap is basically Defile (ptsd issues for me) has me having some serious double-takes when tanking
annnd it looks like the pools that the female goblin chick puts on the ground in the Motherlode
pliant tangle
how is the prot warri doing atm?
old zephyr
neithe really good nor really bad.
blissful imp
As well as everyone predicted
ember arrow
old zephyr
if you play it well you good.
if you do not play it well it's gonna be hell
ember arrow
Good meme
blissful imp
Lord Bubbakunda has not blessed me with a 370 shield yet. How many Atal Dazars must a man complete before getting his shield?
sand egret
enough until you randomly get it in a cache
blissful imp
Maybe we get the ability to fashion a shield from cloaks in 8.1?
willow dirge
It'll be a mainhand for D U A L S H I E L D S
old zephyr
2 handed shields maybe?
bronze lance
thats next xpac, you do a quest to upgrade from prot warrior into a new class that DW shields or uses a 2h shield
chilly brook
@sand egret I wouldn’t say it’s a DC problem but I would say it’s a trait problem because we literally have no other traits that are that much of an impact
Traits SHOULD be like DC or ToM for Arms
Or EP for Arms
Something that actually synergizes with something in your toolkit
They should be like tier set bonuses not just flat “here have a small amount of extra damage”
stark sage
fwiw there are tier sets that are like that
chilly brook
We have 21 tiers
sand egret
@maiden cliff but you're assuming that's the intention. High impact bonuses, like set bonuses. However, the system does not want that as those are the outliers. They want marginal impact with their system, which is why they're toning down outliers. I would not be surprised if DC gets cut down to 1 second.
chilly brook
You can’t tell me they couldn’t have gone back through them all and find some more interesting ones and bring them in as traits
mellow bridge
the passive azerite things are just boring
sand egret
it's whether they wanted to
bronze lance
why not just make teir, and then you pick which part of the set bonus you want, and the set bonus just change how your class plays and not so much boosts dmg/healing/survival
chilly brook
That’s the complete opposite of what Ion said
sand egret
and the answer is, they didn't
chilly brook
Ion literally said they wanted more impactful traits on the spec
And the ones we have now to be considered the floor of interaction
chilly brook
You can play prot without DC
bronze lance
oh griff it was very interesting with laser matrix tues night doing zull trash and it chained off mobs and hit the next 3 packs
chilly brook
You just shouldn’t
sand egret
that's my point though
chilly brook
@bronze lance just go crazy
Well you shouldn’t play without the BiS talents either we gonna nerf all talents too?
sand egret
there shouldn't be a trait that is followed up by that statement (at least in how they want the system to be)
if the BiS is to a degree where you need to get it, then yeah
that's going against what they want
chilly brook
Might as well remove all talents then
sand egret
what they want is that there are 5 different DC's
chilly brook
Since there’s always a clear winner
chilly brook
Then buff the rest and get rid of a bunch of them
old zephyr
talents you don't need to GET them just to pick
sand egret
in fact, it's the "clear winner" that is what classifies as the outlier
old zephyr
DC you have to GET it trhough RNG
sand egret
boring and need
chilly brook
We don’t need a huge variety
sand egret
aren't necessarily paired
sand egret
they could literally make a trait that gave us 20% max hp and that would be boring as fuck
bronze lance
does demo shout do all dmg you take? or just physical?
sand egret
but I bet my ass that would be "mandatory"
stone crag
all
bronze lance
kk
chilly brook
An overwhelming majority of azerite traits are the same exact trait just with a different way of doing the same effect
sand egret
yeah they're boring, i'm not arguing that
chilly brook
No they’re unnecessary
sand egret
but im not conflating what I want with what they intend
again, the point is that they're not necessary
chilly brook
And help lead to bloating and an unclear upgrade path which THEY want to avoid
prisma crane
@bronze lance all dmg that comes from the source that has the debuff
sand egret
ugh
prisma crane
@bronze lance basically, go to WCL and look at damage taken, sort by source, and you can see what DS will work on
bronze lance
its good i just didnt remember the tooltip
chilly brook
“Ugh he watches preach reeee can’t think for himself”
chilly brook
His opinion literally makes the most logical sense
bronze lance
was going to say it would be interesting if they had DC extend the duration, but a different talletn that changed it from physical dmg to magic dmg reduction -- but since its all damage then it doesnt matter
chilly brook
If you want to make it clear what something does you don’t take away from the tooltip
sand egret
eh, I guess it seems logical if you agree with it
chilly brook
And then expect someone to stay in game to read the tooltip and get the full picture
vagrant cape
Here's what I propose; Make ALL spec-specific traits all about one or two aspects of a kit and modify it in six different ways.
For instance, prot warriors: Demo shout is pretty cool. Make every trait increase the duration of demo shout, but through a different means. Callous reprisal makes revenge increase it, reinforced plating makes blocking increase it, etc.
Arms warriors: Overpower seems pretty nifty, let's make it so that one trait makes overpower increase execute by a small amount. Let's have another one that increases the chance for overpower to reset its CD. Let another one make overpower shoot out a line of damage.
chilly brook
Same applies to azerite traits you don’t throw a 50 options out there and then make them all samey and expect someone to understand which is a clear winner
vagrant cape
Make azerite traits like customizable tier sets
sand egret
So similar to Runes from D3
that's interesting, however, does that change how we are now if say, Demo Shouts via TClap still remains king?
vagrant cape
Blizzard basically picks which abilities get the spotlight (like they always do) but we can have our own different takes/playstyles to go along with them
chilly brook
Tbf that trait will remain king until they remove it
sand egret
like is a player still going to feel the pinch of not getting that trait
or feel like they just have the "worse version" of the trait
chilly brook
And if they remove it or nerf it heavily say goodbye to warrior for now
sand egret
I like the idea of customizing a feature spell though, it's a neat way to look at it
Personally, azerite traits should be strictly utility-based
and have no direct impact to your designed performance.
vagrant cape
@sand egret it makes it so you can still have tons of demo shout uptime regardless of the traits you get. In the world I'm dreaming of, DC raises the duration of DS by 0.5s, but every trait extends it by the same amount so it evens out to 0.5s per ability cast or 1.5s if you have three for the same ability
sand egret
it's a good way of mitigating the difference, though
I like that
still rubs into a common problem which is
even a 1% increase suddenly becomes "mandatory" and suddenly not being able to get that is a huge blocker
which is 100% a social construct, not a design problem
vagrant cape
@sand egret that's the problem though. Without tier or artifacts in legion, your class was very barebones and meh. And now we're stuck with that in BFA. The classes at their base are just kinda boring. They NEED something new every now and then to spice them up and keep the specs dynamic. That was the whole purpose behind tier sets changing.
sand egret
I don't disagree
sand egret
However, I don't think the "spice" has to be in that direction
grim prism
Apparently they dont lol
Or rather, they dont know if they do or not
We get different answers from different peopld
chilly brook
@grim prism I feel like I must’ve watched a different blizzcon and Q&As than this guy
astral crystal
azerite's a crap system, no doubt about that
sand egret
we just come from diff vantage points is all
vagrant cape
@sand egret There will always be a BiS trait no matter what, but deafening crash has basically pushed all other traits out in terms of competition because nothing else does anything like what it does. If all traits gave the same benefit (more DS uptime) but in different ways, I'd have no issue with upgrading a piece of gear that gives me more power AND makes me change up my playstyle
chilly brook
It’s not a vantage point
sand egret
we can both agree that the system def needs work tho
astral crystal
devs were being so meek when they responded to the initial wave of criticism, and yesterday they just pulled a double down because it would just be too much of a time consuming mess to fix
chilly brook
Literally they’ve stated they want it to have a performance impact
That’s not a vantage point
It’s a fact
sand egret
@vagrant cape that's why i'm saying that DC is the outlier
vagrant cape
@sand egret it's the outlier in two ways: it's grossly more powerful AND it was the only trait I feel like blizz actually got right
sand egret
your solution is embracing the outlier and creating different degrees of power along that axis
which isn't wrong
vagrant cape
yes. I love how DC changes the way the spec feels and is played
chilly brook
Why shouldn’t we?
sand egret
I just don't think that's how they want to go about it
astral crystal
DC doesnt change shit in terms of gameplay?
you were always going to take UF and spam thunderclap
there was no doubt about that
sand egret
rotationally, no. But it does add another interaction
which is arguably affecting gameplay
astral crystal
a passive interaction
sand egret
its active
dusk locust
it does cause me to think about whether i'm overlapping demo shout and avatar properly
sand egret
you are hitting a button actively to extend it
grim prism
But now you are heavily incentivized to line up cooldowns for it, and failure to spam TC properly means a big performancs falloff
astral crystal
idk if i'd call doing my rotation as i normally would an active interaction but ok
sand egret
doign your rotation = active
vagrant cape
Eh, I think it changes a great deal. "do I use IP here or do I risk a thunderclap to keep up the buff?"
dusk locust
^
grim prism
I think it counts as a meaningful rotational change, but i do see your poinylt
sand egret
things that proc based on auto-attacks = passive, for instance
chilly brook
I mean there’s a big difference between 50% uptime and 74% uptime @astral crystal
vagrant cape
(not during avatar ofc)
dusk locust
the DC trait i think makes it more interesting
astral crystal
but the uptime isn't active is what i'm getting at
chilly brook
You actually actively have to work to get 74% uptime
It’s not something you do passively
sand egret
but it does change how you view your spells
astral crystal
that's what im saying bladesong
sand egret
yeah I agree, I just think the wording was a bit off is all
final elbow
it does create a lot of situations where you think about TC instead of IP
esp with avatar active
astral crystal
idk, in raid situations you have to weave in IP sometimes for damage smoothing imo
bronze lance
always go for the damage option, shit cant kill you if its dead
sand egret
we found the warrior!
chilly brook
I mean you should always weave in IP
astral crystal
since most of the time you're not even holding the boss 100% of the time
chilly brook
Except when not holding boss
astral crystal
getting maximum demo time wont be an issue
bronze lance
no no im an enhance shaman
sand egret
you're just a confused Fury warrior then 😃
vagrant cape
If every trait raised the duration of demo shout but they all did it at 0.5s and stacked, it would be a very fun and interesting dance of like, "ok, shit, I gotta use revenge, charge, and IP to keep up this DS" and it lets you customize what kit you want to bring to a fight. If you're gonna be doing mythic prog, you probly want more defensive stuff (IP). In a perfect world, the traits would be balanced in such a way that if you're doing "The IP Build©" you would even take never surrender or something (but now I'm just asking for a pie in the sky)
sand egret
First take would be you make a big distinction binding your uptime to something that costs rage vs not
for instance
so already you have a bunch of stuff to work through on that front
vagrant cape
right, so maybe the duration would increase by an amount proportional to the cooldown/cost of the other ability. Charge should definitely extend DS by more than TC does, for instance
chilly brook
Tbf a 20% damage reduction that has no cap quickly outgrows a 50% damage reduction that has a cap
sand egret
how does that factor into abilities with different types of scaling?
this also puts a lot of design weight on that ability (which is an immediate redflag to me in terms of future proofing stuff)
it's a bit to unpack, but the d3 style customization is a neat idea
I'd have to think about it more
vagrant cape
In my dream world that I wish prot warriors existed in, there would be maybe 3ish talent/trait setups that highlighted a few different abilities. What we have now is the "Avatar + Thunderclap + Demo Shout" era
I really want a setup that brings, say IP, shield slam, and intercept up to the same level. And another one that works with devastate, revenge, and shockwave, perhaps.
I don't think the insane synergy in the talent tree/DC right now is the problem, I think it's the solution.
In terms of putting weight on a certain ability, tier sets have done that for literally a decade and it's fine because they always change after a little bit.
Tier sets (and even the artifact weapons) highlighted specific parts of each spec's kit and it's wonderful
wintry ermine
Anyone using pawn, if so, what weights are you using? just curious 😃
vagrant cape
we have a stat priority, it goes:
> ilvl > haste > mastery=vers > crit
wintry ermine
I just have some basic weights I made, which always prioritize itemlvl but icyveins stats if they are equal
sand egret
See personally, I am in the other camp. My dream system is that the traits you choose only have an indirect impact on your performance statistically with way more impact from a quality perspective. I want traits that lower the CD of heroic leap. I want traits that lower the Charge cooldown or allow it to provide a Heal to an ally. My favorite legendary from Legion was the triple HL shoulders. To me, that was by far and away the most "impact" I've felt on my warrior when I got it
frosty wedge
oh man, I fking love those shoulders
sand egret
once we get into "increases dps by X" etc, it goes into Sim-land
frosty wedge
I used them in timewalking 😄
sand egret
and tbh that was the issue with Legendaries
SOME impacted your rotation and dps and others were fun QoL stuff
even one poisons the well (aka DC)
vagrant cape
there will ALWAYS be a "best" choice, though, there's no escaping that. Even if everything only granted utility, players would figure out which utility helped them get the most uptime/dps in a dungeon or on a boss. People wouldn't be simming, sure, but they'd still puzzle out how to get the most dps (except now there's no nifty tool to help them figure it out).
viral jackal
man its such a bummer to watch 368 ilvl prot wars get shit on in like +8's lol
vagrant cape
I don't see anything inherently wrong with simming
sand egret
in isolation, yeah.
final elbow
if you get shat on in a +8 with 368 gear, thats not your classes fault
sand egret
unfortunately gamers are their own worst enemy
sick sentinel
Yeah, that's not the classes fault lol.
frosty wedge
yeah definitely not the class. I can tank a +8 without much issue at 355
viral jackal
idk the twitch streamer i was watching seemed to be doing everything right
vagrant cape
I guess I'm not seeing what issue you are trying to avoid, @sand egret . Is it simming specifically that you feel is the problem or is it disparity in performance between choices (some choices of which are gated behind rng)?
viral jackal
just got crunched several times
frosty wedge
probably not doing everything right, or trying to facetank, etc
final elbow
prot warrior being shit is a giant meme. you have to put in a lot of work to get the same results as other tanks, but if you do, you are solid middle ground
vagrant cape
I do see that there could be some value in letting everything be utility and letting the players figure out which ones are best for certain scenarios
viral jackal
maybe its the raging affix this week but he was just getting stomped on
prisma crane
but at least reward us for doing so
final elbow
if your dps are braindead and not concentrate their damage, yeah you can have all the equip you want you will eat dirt with raging
chilly brook
I mean what you’re wanting is traits that boil down to nothing @sand egret
viral jackal
i wish every blood dk didn't have 30k more health than i did at the same ilvl
frosty wedge
yeah f he's face tanking adds under 30% he's most definitely NOT doig things right
prisma crane
i'd rather people who, ohh, you're a warrior, idk if we want you, are you good? if so, YES, if not, idk....
instead of now, just, no
waxen talon
prot warriors should mostly be kiting in m+, we have the perfect toolkit for doing so
vagrant cape
@chilly brook I don't think blade's asking for nothing, per se. I mean, the shoulders in legion felt amazing, everyone agreed, but no one used them when they had better dps options.
waxen talon
if u can keep up with semi good threat that is.
final elbow
I hear that a lot that people get autodenied as a warrior. never happened to me
chilly brook
Traits would literally have to have no impact at all for what he’s saying
prisma crane
we have a shit toolkit for kiting imo
viral jackal
Agreed Krotos, I'm 357 iLvl and still get turned down for like +4's routinely cuz of class 😦
frosty wedge
?
prisma crane
we can run, but not effectively kite
frosty wedge
we have leap, we have intervene
sand egret
no, def not what I'm saying
frosty wedge
we have tclap
sand egret
by Byron's seem to got my idea
prisma crane
which means mobs are running away from your dps as well
waxen talon
intervene on its own is godlike kiting
final elbow
if you cant kite that means your dps are braindead
waxen talon
fear, shockwave
final elbow
you arent the only person who can cc
waxen talon
revenge is semi range if u scope it properly
sand egret
so on that note, lunchtime!
chilly brook
@vagrant cape sure let’s say we go down the utility road, then guess what m+ becomes even a more convoluted pick system because utility matters so much in m+
prisma crane
i'm just saying, other tanks kite better than us
we're not defined by our kiting
we can move quickly, yes
waxen talon
who?
frosty wedge
right we're not defined by kiting, but we're not SHIT kiters
monks
kiting on a monk is hilarious
waxen talon
thats 1.
frosty wedge
DK
prisma crane
DK, Monks, DH
chilly brook
Literally no matter what road you go down rh it is I’ll always be a best option.
frosty wedge
yeah.... you target the furthest mob from you and mass grip to them
you have a run speed increase
waxen talon
u can heroic leap out / charge out any sec u need to
frosty wedge
DK is super easy to kite on
grim prism
We arent defined by kiting but we have a lot of mobility tools
chilly brook
Unless you make them completely useless
prisma crane
you also have a slow that starts at like 90%
waxen talon
ur not supposed to kite for like 20 seconds
grim prism
DK kiting is disgusting right now
vagrant cape
@chilly brook as long as everyone feels like they have something that helps (even if it's not the mathematically-proven "best" thing) I think that system can have merit.
"I may not have the trait that gives me an extra leap for kiting, but at least my intercept range is 10 yards longer"
outer dew
Y'all talking about this, but group comp resolves lot of things when it comes to kiting
It's not a SP game
grim prism
^
final elbow
yeh
outer dew
Having a monk/mage will resolve your issues
waxen talon
Kiting comes down to threat too.
final elbow
and then you bring the fucking dps
astral crystal
druids too for ursol/vortex
grim prism
I bring a mage to every M+ i run, if i can help it
outer dew
Get larger radius TC
final elbow
especially with skittish people will beg for warriors
frosty wedge
I always bring a mage or rogue if I can
prisma crane
ok, so, we're only viable for kiting with specific classes, got it
outer dew
???
prisma crane
and Tclap slow might as well not be there
astral crystal
you can always stun, clap and leap away :^)
vagrant cape
@chilly brook I really like blade's idea and now I'm kinda coming around on it. It reminds of what I said during legion; Legendaries should have just been pure utility, not mandatory dps upgrades that you needed to make your spec feel complete
waxen talon
Average tank is absolute trash, so whatever u play u be good in the eyes of a pug.
prisma crane
20% may as well be useless
grim prism
No, TC slow is enough that you can kite provided you have friends to intercept to
frosty wedge
??
grim prism
It keeps them moving at about the same speed as you
outer dew
I don't get your obsession with the help of other classes
frosty wedge
warriors are absolutely fine for kiting
grim prism
^
outer dew
Other tanks still feel miserable kiting without some supplement
frosty wedge
if you can't kite on a warrior, it's not the classes fault
outer dew
Because ya know
waxen talon
the whole idea of gettin away from a mob when u need to as a DK
outer dew
It's a MMO
chilly brook
@vagrant cape utility still has mandatory takers and can affect damage
waxen talon
feels absolute trash compare to a warrior
grim prism
Adding a decent comp to ANY tank is going to make the game easier
chilly brook
Especially if you take other classes for example
prisma crane
there's a difference between kiting quickly and kiting slowly though
frosty wedge
yeah DK lack of mobility sucks
final elbow
yeah. dk feels like a dehydrated snail haha
chilly brook
How do you not break a class if you just buff utility like Paladin
prisma crane
one of those options has more control and allows for dps to actually kill shit faster and more easily
grim prism
DK doesnt need mobiliity tools because of all the grips and slows
waxen talon
imo kiting is also when theres a huge unstunnable mob that u leap away from for the sake of giving the healer a second.
frosty wedge
for sure, but getting out of shit is harder as a DK
grim prism
They kite comparably well to warriors in a vaccum, imo
chilly brook
How do you buff blood DK utility without burying prot warriors further into the ground on the m+ popularity chart
waxen talon
you dont buff DK
frosty wedge
you don't, they don't need more
grim prism
Sure its not EZPZ but its definitrly doable
waxen talon
each class need their strength and weakness
chilly brook
That’s the point
waxen talon
a DK is defined as a zombi class.
chilly brook
Hence why utility based traits only is bad
prisma crane
my point is that i'd all day rather have a half my movement speed with twice as effective slows
frosty wedge
I'm just saying different classes have different advantages and disadvantages
chilly brook
Because utility defines m+
final elbow
nobody cares about popularity. nobody plays anything but FOTM classes anyway. doesn't mean shit
viral jackal
I just laugh at the idea that someone would be like "Well, warriors are the worst mythic+ tanks, but they can kite better than this DK so i'm bringing the warrior to this +11"
vagrant cape
@chilly brook right, it totally can, but it's better than having "choices" about pure dps talents/traits because they don't end up being choices at all. You'll just pick whichever thing gives the biggest dps.
If they all grant utility, on the other hand, yes, one will always be "best" but every bit of utility will be situationally viable and players can feel really good when their utility suits the situation perfectly.
waxen talon
Warrior utility isnt bad at all
vagrant cape
@chilly brook it's possible the "best" utility will change on a boss-by-boss or dungeon-by-dungeon basis
waxen talon
fear, stun, stun, i dont know what u complain about
prisma crane
@waxen talon you serious?
vagrant cape
People are ignoring the real issue behind the DK/warrior balance disparity... BDKs don't have to farm a weapon AND a shield. 🤔
final elbow
again, saying prot is garbage is the current meme
grim prism
Prot utility isnt incredible but it certainly isnt bad. Not even close
frosty wedge
^
prisma crane
if by not bad means we have some utility, sure
vagrant cape
Guys, stop talking about how good prot is. It's like y'all don't even WANT buffs...
final elbow
well but then again Blood DKs dont have a shield and are subsequently inferior in the coolness departement
waxen talon
idk u wont complai nwhen u can have stormbotl + fear + shockwave in same setup
viral jackal
It's not a current meme, it's just true. Data shows how awful and underrepresented they are.
grim prism
We all knew IP was going to scale poorly in high content; it had the same problem last expac and the equation for it is functionally identical
final elbow
it shows they are underrepresented but thats the case for all the tanks that arent FOTM
prisma crane
i'm not saying prot is garbage, but we're not in a great state
waxen talon
"underreprestented comes down to how unplayable we feel rn too.
vagrant cape
are they underrepresented because they have low ratings or do they have low ratings because they're underrepresented? 🤔
prisma crane
and have tons of room for improvement
final elbow
there are prot warriors in the highest mythic keys so they are objectively not garbage
grim prism
@final elbow nah, prot and bear are both around 5% representartion in raids and even lower in M+ leaderboards
vagrant cape
Last time I looked at raider.io, the first prot warrior showed up at rank 67 for tanks
grim prism
Its more than a FotM.issue
outer dew
I mean. Do I dislike how weak IP is? Yes
Do i feel squishy and feel like my kit can't handle things?
viral jackal
It's not FOTM anymore. It's "Oh hey these guys are better, we're going with them." We're being picked last in gym class.
outer dew
Not really
vagrant cape
so they're in the top 67 highest mythic keys PogChamp
prisma crane
@waxen talon stun DR says hello, also, i'd maybe think our fear was ok if it didnt break on dmg taken, didnt take a GCD, and didnt cause mobs to sprint into other mobs
final elbow
yeah because nobody plays warrior
final elbow
the shere amount of other tanks and warrior is still top 67
grim prism
Well yeah but its more than just a community perception issue
waxen talon
thsi is like the age of solo stun rotating dungeon trash
grim prism
Community perception feeds into low representation as a positive-feedback loop, for sure
waxen talon
yea fear is weird but i like the fact its there.
prisma crane
love me them GCD interrupts
grim prism
But its very apparent that there are mechsnical issues with our spec
final elbow
not saying warrior shoudlnt be buffed, but they sure as hell aren't unvaible atm
waxen talon
always been the case for tanks.
outer dew
There's nothing wrong with having something to stop a cast atm
grim prism
Oh we are viable in mythic and up to +10s
final elbow
warrior is mid tier even if played perfectly and you need to put in a lot of work to get there. that's the issue
grim prism
Absolutely
grim prism
But we underperform other tanks at every level of play right now
waxen talon
so is having 4 of them.
outer dew
Or CC
grim prism
Aside from lolbears
final elbow
In a median
viral jackal
Agreed X23p7. My issue is that as Prot, I have to do everything perfectly right just to be mid tier and a BM Monk or DK can be relatively lazy and get better results.
final elbow
I definitely overperfom a lot of tanks in my iLvl range
waxen talon
Most tanks are so bad u look good whatever u play
if u have any clue what ur doing, that is.
grim prism
Okay but that isnt accounting for the fact that 80% of the playerbase is shit at this game
prisma crane
well sure, but there's little point comparing good play to shit play
it means nothing
grim prism
If you put a good prot next to a good bdk, bdk wins every time
final elbow
sure and shit player make even worse prot tanks. that's a major factor in the underrepresentation
final elbow
as loong as a perfect prot can still compete at the highest current key, I'm fine with the blood dk being even better
waxen talon
Also tbh compare to certain other tanks, not mentioning names
prot warrior has to play decent to do litterally anything
grim prism
Which feeds into community perceprion
waxen talon
while other classes just stay there and look dumb and still do fairly good
final elbow
agreed
grim prism
Sure, it just sucks for those of us that want to do more than just farm 10s
It takes more effort and focus to get there
And its way harder to push beyond
waxen talon
thats always the case when theres like 6 tank specs.
im personally hopin for major updates to prot in 8.1 tho
final elbow
yeah again I agree with prots being in need for a buff. Always having to battle up hill isn't what I want for everyone
outer dew
In all fairness, if you want tanks to play differently and have different aesthetics to play stthe same level
waxen talon
certain things really need a change.
outer dew
You're better only having one tank exist
prisma crane
if we're gonna feel like shit to play, i'd at least like to be out of bottom 2 in both raids and M+
grim prism
Meh
viral jackal
Thing is once you get up to 10's, etc - No one wants to take you if you're a prot war. 😦
prisma crane
there were better tanks in M+ in legion too, but i didnt care as much T21 was a blast toplay
outer dew
You're gonna feel shafted at points with 6 different specs and classes out there
grim prism
Monks and BDKs and prots all feel fundamentally very different to play, and thats a good thing
waxen talon
lets remove DHs from the game and get another range dps / healer class.
grim prism
Doesnt mean they cant be fairly balanced
waxen talon
Well to be fair
grim prism
And granted, the imbalance isnt awful
waxen talon
rushed expansion + we are early in expansion
prisma crane
i mean, i'm ok with 3 tanks being top in raids, and the other 3 top in M+
you want niche, there
vagrant cape
can DHs at least wear mail? it's annoying having so many specs using leather
waxen talon
i wuldnt give up on prot warrior tho.
grim prism
Anf there will always be winners and losers
past ledge
Guys where do i get Azerite armor with DC ? all iuldir bosses dont drop it
prisma crane
I'm only playing prot, it's all i do
waxen talon
so many specs using leather?
as far as i recall leather was the least popular type in early stages of the game
grim prism
@past ledge world quests or weekly cache
vagrant cape
But what about an islands expedition tier list?!? 😆
prisma crane
@past ledge M0 or pray to RNG in weekly
grim prism
^
past ledge
so either weekly or low IL WQ??
vagrant cape
yep
past ledge
wow...lol
vagrant cape
welcome to BFA
waxen talon
was same with relics and trinkets in the past, idk why ppl look at this as being new
past ledge
so ill have to equip my 340 instead of my 370 till i get lucky with weekly...
vagrant cape
do any arathi bosses drop DC pieces?
waxen talon
ur probably gonna end up using a non bis pieces.
vagrant cape
@past ledge you betcha
waxen talon
u mean the one arathi boss?
past ledge
now thats BS!
vagrant cape
Now you see the problem with the azerite trait system
prisma crane
no @past ledge that's BFA
waxen talon
and u need a uldir trait regardless.
prisma crane
no, you can't drop DC
old night
morning all
steel mauve
Napkin mathed for 45 ilvls
waxen talon
we are talking about deafing clash right?
steel mauve
Yes
waxen talon
oh yea thats smartly designed.
vapid loom
ok question...we are not running any Reo Array ?
steel mauve
Basically it was mathed out dc worth about 6% dr in a fight, and mathed out 15 ilvls is worth ~2% dr
vapid loom
in uldir
vapid loom
Which one ?
oblique wolf
I was finally able to get ahold of one. I would of had to give up 60 item levels to wear a DC piece before
steel mauve
Archive
waxen talon
cant math a non lineary curve but i get the point.
vapid loom
DC ?
oblique wolf
Deafening Crash
steel mauve
Thats why i said napkin math
vapid loom
i got 1
chilly brook
How much would DC be worth in DR if you had 74% uptime on Demo?
vagrant cape
what ilvls?
vapid loom
355 the Brace and DC 340
steel mauve
Its just an estimation, its not completely accurate, but i wouldnt drop a dc regardless but if you needed to dont do it for less then 45 ilvls min
steel mauve
^
vagrant cape
I got two azerite pieces from weekly (370 helm and 385 chest), 370 chest from arathi boss, and 370 shoulders from the warfront and no DC.
2/3 weekly chests got me azerite, so I'm probly not getting any more azerite gear from the cache until 8.1
celest jacinth
Oi guys, how good is prot warr 😄
frosty wedge
so good
marble pelican
so last night I made a trip to my bank....good god I have a bank full of useless junk. I then realized I hadn't been to my bank since before BFA lol
frosty wedge
@vagrant cape I got 1 azerite piece from weekly... from a possible 8 chests across 4 characters
grim prism
If you have to ask, then it's good enough for you
celest jacinth
Just meme'ing, remember voicing concerns in week 1 before rerolling haha
"prot warr is fine just get good"
grim prism
Lol
I mean I was concerned since prepatch because IP has had longstanding scaling issues
There are a few sycophants in here but i think we're pretty reasonable overall
celest jacinth
Yeah, one reset of mythic 0s and I had huge red flags :/
vagrant cape
@frosty wedge I guess when blizzard says "Bad luck protection" they mean they find the people with bad luck and make sure they keep it as to "protect" others from such luck. Thanks for keeping others safe from misfortune!
waxen talon
the spec honestly feels pretty shit to me.
grim prism
Dont we do better than any other tanks with necrotic? Aside from monk maybe?
vagrant cape
nah
waxen talon
Necrotic has a learning curve tho
its wayyyy easier when u know exactly which options can destack u
vagrant cape
BDKs and Pallies have ways to prevent stacks from being applied
grim prism
Mmmm of course they do haha
celest jacinth
BDK was only with the legendary cloak right
celest jacinth
Yeah, you dont get application during the AMS
but the duration is shorter than the necrotic debuff duration now pretty sure
frosty wedge
❤ @vagrant cape
waxen talon
Sounds pretty stupid if u can destack with a class cooldown
should be like mandatory find a boss cast time and abuse it by runnin away ;p
sand egret
shower thought: Despite being tanks, one of the defining features of current tanking is in our ability to run away from the danger. 🤔
junior igloo
We're not retreating, we're just advancing in a different direction."
sand egret
gotta bind that to my HL button
reminds me of that Monty Python scene with the rabbit
waxen talon
try and do that with brewmaster tanks
sand egret
someones' gotta make a meme video over that scene for Necrotic week
old night
so for some reason last time I was in mother I wasn't able to snag all the adds in room 2 once they spawned
this isnt an issue in heroic
any tips for tonight?
mythic btw
sand egret
"Oh look at all these little white mobs...."
2 seconds and 80 stacks later
"RUN AWAAAY"
vocal nimbus
grim prism
Ask them to redirect to the frost mage you pugged
He is a better tank than prot war anyway
ocean acorn
prot feels real good this week in m+
solemn current
nothing has changed though?
ocean acorn
the affixes?
solemn current
The ones that do more damage to tanks that include a good amount of non physical damage?
Fort to Tyrannical is going to feel better for any tank
ocean acorn
i just like intercept, shockwave and leap for necrotic
solemn current
Which is why it feels better for any tank. Not Prot specific
ocean acorn
ya teeming fort was a pain
solemn current
i think the mobs chosen for teeming is what made it worse than it needed to be
earnest zinc
I guess the "skill" would be to only invite high dps
It's already that way in general, but it was made much worse then
Anyone else have trouble with Shrine of the Storm on a non trivial key level?
My guild avoids that place
grim prism
Temple seems to be the one my friends avoid
earnest zinc
Temple is a close second
grim prism
Shrine is sketchier than some but not overly difficult imo
sand egret
Temple stiiiinks
grim prism
Last Shrine boss on tyr is a pain in the dick
I think that's my only pain point
And even that can be cheesed with the debuff
earnest zinc
The problems come in on last boss, trash before the third boss (tenticles), and the second boss
vapid loom
Lifespeed ( haste + avoidance ) or Elemental whirl ( 2ndary stats)
vapid loom
also azerite veins over elemental whirl i suppose?
grim prism
Absolutely
uneven mason
Shrine is one of those keys I just don't want to run on any affix
dusk locust
i always feel like i'm getting the % wrong on shrine
grim prism
Shrine just has a lot trash mechanics to deal with and it's easy to overpull. Although on second thought that describes most dungeons this expac
grim prism
That one doesnt seem hard if everyone does mechanics
dusk locust
duo boss hasn't been too bad for me
grim prism
Its a lot of damage but it's all predictable
uneven mason
I guess I just need smarter DPS 😄
"INterrupt her so she moves out of the haste burble plz" is a difficult concept
grim prism
If people dont ward the debuff then youre in for a shitty time
If people kick while she had the tornado aura youre also in for a bad time
But if the mechanics are done properly then it's not difficult at all, compared to say the last boss in the same dungeon
neon tangle
It is true
The real kicker for teeming fort was actually quaking
Because people would panic and spread out
And pull shit
grim prism
Your people spread out?
uneven mason
lol
I was doing full melee groups
and we handled quaking just fine
fucking have one mage in a run and that dude is spazzing out if the healer is within 20 yards of him during quaking
grim prism
Mine just threestacked me despite two of them being ranged
uneven mason
like...how can 3 melee and a tank manage to not clip eachother while all staying in range to DPS, but the dude who can stay 30 yards back manages to facepull every time.
I think it really comes down to the fact that, tanks and melee
are used to dealing with idiotic mechanics that punish melee more
so we're used to spreading just enough
gleaming viper
Ranged mechanics we're way worse in legion, at least for raiding
uneven mason
LIke eyebeams on Zek - melee gets targeted watch everyone just kind've slide around a bit , dude is still beating on the boss, no one gets clipped. Ranged have the REST OF THE ROOM, still manage to kill healers with that crap.
uneven mason
yeah
neon tangle
It was impressive in it's own way
gleaming viper
My issue with hunters is them multi shotting CCd mobs
uneven mason
BARRAGE
"Where'd this seagul come from"
Hunters facepull so bad, we get NPCs from other instances to come fuck with us
neon tangle
It was particularly un-fun on the packs in motherlode w/ the floating magic guys
frosty wedge
lol
neon tangle
anyhow, this week is much more fun / doable
frosty wedge
I did a motherlode last night where my group was competent enough that the last pack of trash we had to pull actually made us hit 100%
no facepulls/unnecessary groups
it was.... real fun
neon tangle
@frosty wedge you see, I hit 100% before we even touched the last hill
neon tangle
We finished the last boss w/ just me and the healer alive from 40%
frosty wedge
we were like, a little over, because the DH ran into a second pack when dashing
but that was already on the last hill
neon tangle
On the last hill the rogue wanted to do his stealth-everyone thing
frosty wedge
and it was only 2 mobs
neon tangle
Ignoring me telling him that the big guys can see you
frosty wedge
LOL
neon tangle
we wipe
Hunter feigns death
and refuses to come back
so we clear the 3 packs w/o him
It was pretty great
I only missed the timer by 30 seconds depsite all that
jaunty totem
Hello guys i have a question, the only magical solution to necrotic is to stay away from the mob?
sand egret
necrotic is mostly a product of creating an opportunity to reset the debuff. So yeah, you're supposed to stay away.
grim prism
@uneven mason playing a caster is harder than i thought tbh
ruby sapphire
I think spell reflect reduces some damage from necrotic, but I'm not positive.
grim prism
I played a hunter in wod when it had negative IQ requirements and could cast on the move
grim prism
But playing a REAL caster
uneven mason
I can play healers
sand egret
I think it does @ruby sapphire , but simply because it's a 20% reduction and I think the DoT is Nature damgae
grim prism
Its a lot easier to do mechanics, the only problem is it costs you a fuckload of damage
To not cast
uneven mason
you learn to move just enough
and to trigger any instant casts you have when you start moving
uneven mason
kind've
neon tangle
@grim prism To be fair I kinda blame blizzard for having instant-cast spells and 'i'll just target something close to me if my last target died'
grim prism
Sure, but even making little stuttersteps costs you a global
bold zinc
talents
uneven mason
Bladesong - casters have the capability to move as far as the mechanic requires and continue with their DPS
bold zinc
for warrior m+?
grim prism
Sometimes*
uneven mason
Melee have to leave melee range
ruby sapphire
move between globals
uneven mason
and then return to melee range
uneven mason
Melee mechanics tend to 1 shot you
as they're intended to be tank busters.
Ranged mechanics tend to just be there to give healers something todo
sand egret
eh, in some cases. There are also cases where ranged also has to get out of range, or move enough that casting simply isn't an option.
grim prism
I take safeguard in high M+, but bounding stride might be better this week in all cases
sand egret
Ranged mechanics just tend to be more involved
uneven mason
yes, moving 3 feet is involved
grim prism
Top right, itll be a pushpin icon or three little dots
Or in the #268491842637660160 tab
It was included in a large post and copypasting on mobile sucka ass
vapid loom
Str or Stamina Flask?
cause str is the lowest stat
and i;m playing with Bolster
for raid
vapid loom
parry yes
ember arrow
str is a strong stat
summer sequoia
so wowhead has the PTR notes saying our mastery was removed, but it doesn't say what replaced it.. anyone have PTR and check?
grim prism
No
open bluff
Datamining is not worth getting worried about, official patch notes are
grim prism
^ so much this ^
summer sequoia
just curious 😃
open bluff
It's likely the build was pushed mid-iteration and they're still toying around with us
Wouldn't be worried until they say "here's how 8.1 prot will be" or it goes live without mastery
frosty wedge
honestly with the state of the game in BfA for far I wouldn't be entirely surprised if they forgot to give us a mastery in 8.1
open bluff
(Given Blizzard's recent communication policy, my money's on the latter)
summer sequoia
'that's what you get for complaining!'
frosty wedge
I died more in End Time than I did in a motherlode 10
sand egret
that hotfix went live, right?
neon tangle
does better gear help you w/ the scaling? or is it always the same?
sand egret
I saw they nerfed End Time, but I didn't run through it last night
neon tangle
I did it w/o too much issue
I did it pre-nerf, no deaths or anything
Baine hits p hard tho, had to rotate through CDs like I was tanking a real boss
grim prism
Timewalking sucks ass right now
sand egret
downscaling actually favors lower level characters with better gear
grim prism
We couldnt DPS baine fast enough when i tried it pre-nerf
sand egret
so being a boss ass 85 tank should make you legit, iirc
grim prism
Ended up getting the kill with all platforms destroyed lol
sand egret
haha yeah, actually
frosty wedge
@neon tangle sylvanas was hilarious
sand egret
😃
frosty wedge
The ghouls had SO MUCH health
neon tangle
@frosty wedge I had baine + tyrande
sand egret
I really like that mechanic 😃
frosty wedge
also the packs of one big guy with a shitload of little guys around it trucked so hard
frosty wedge
lol yeah
lusty grotto
i ran some timewalking last night
that last boss in the dragon dungeon has WAY too much hp
other than that, most of it seemed fine
grim batol i mean
reef fulcrum
Grim batol boss is fine as long as you do the mechanics
lusty grotto
right nothing really kills you
but he has more hp than other bosses
it felt like forever
did tol'vir and stonecore, most bosses seemed fine
and the adds didn't heal him once
i should add
sand egret
when I did it, the pace was pretty on-par with how long it took in Cata (for Grim Batol, that is)
2-3 add sequences
neon tangle
I got the achievement for killing the adds in grim batol
they just melted
we also didn't mess up the dragons so almost zero trash
frosty wedge
yeah, we basiclaly had no trash left when I did grim batol
sand egret
I think the scaling made the fly-by part REALLY effective. It used to take a coordinated effort to fully wipe a pack but I was doing waaaay more damage this time around
I basically had 2 people who didn't do anything on their dragons and we had like 2 mobs left over
lucid kelp
so is 8.1 planned before or after blizzcon, or do we not know, and if we dont know..speculate?
lucid kelp
im betting after as well but secretly hoping sooner cause the Warfront's kinda boring right now
not sure if adding 1 more warfront will help tho
young iris
I had a lot of fun tanking Cata TW, it felt like a M0 and awarded equivalent gear. Its not the impossible overtuned that people make it out to be, just a little coordination. It also doesnt help that like 99% of the community doesnt realize that legion/mop/Wod legendaries all work inside.
young iris
I did end time when trash was hitting for 25% of my hp with arcane wave, just had to sap/poly/blind/hibernate and it was easy enough
people who complain about not killing the ghouls as well are popping CDs on the boss and not saving them for the adds
lusty grotto
i wouldn't doubt that
young iris
a little coordiation goes a long way
neon tangle
@young iris Yeah I had the same experience, I did end-times pre-nerf
Was fun to enjoy it "hard" once, but I can see why they nerfed it lol
lusty grotto
being difficult can be rewarding for some of us, but let's not forget that an unintended scaling problem is still a problem
lusty grotto
that would be fun for sure
young iris
It honestly reminded me fo the first few weeks Cata heroics were opened. It was actually difficult for the level of content. People complained that it was (arguably) to hard for pug groups so they nerfed a lot of abilities as well as adding the luck of the draw 15% bonus to random groups;
lusty grotto
that came up last night with my guild mates
but its 3 expansions later lol
:p
or 4 if we're counting bfa
chrome harbor
3.5?
lusty grotto
it was fun in its time (just like vanilla)
neon tangle
@young iris This is probably why I enjoyed it so much, I haven't ran most of those since the first few weeks of cata
lusty grotto
you didn't do TW in legion?
neon tangle
back when blizz tried hard to make only 2 levels of challenge work
@lusty grotto I haven't played since cata
lusty grotto
i see
neon tangle
(Which I think also makes me not feel like I lost a lot of power as a tank since I never had it to begin with)
chrome harbor
I always enjoy seeing who doesnt jump or run to safetly on the last boss of the wind dungeon
lusty grotto
hmm idk, prot was decent in cata
sweet orchid
I quit in cata and started again a few weeks before the bfa patch
neon tangle
/highfive @sweet orchid
lusty grotto
i still have cata videos in my youtube lol
midnight ferry
Just done waycrest necrotic +10, total aids
lusty grotto
cho'gall kill haha
i'm surprised the song on it wasn't muted
back when i was alliance sniff
neon tangle
all kinds of shit is weird since I haven't played since cata
gotta do active mitigation and stuff
chrome harbor
gotta say, missed most of cata cause i was in college ( woulda been a waste) so i didnt see most of cata, but from what I heard its not too popular
neon tangle
I got no clue why some expansions are popular or not
chrome harbor
yea not saying that holds a lotta weight, people loved legion and i hated it
lusty grotto
i disliked WoD, didn't play MoP but it was good from what i can gather
neon tangle
cata had some pretty good raids, the zones were pretty interesting, etc
lusty grotto
Legion was great except for the grinds
Firelands is still one of my favorite raids alongside Ulduar
ToS in legion was close
chrome harbor
interesting
neon tangle
Wrath had some pretty un-fun raids to me
I haaaated the crusade one
where you just chill in one room
young iris
that a pretty general consensus on ToC
chrome harbor
BRF is actually one of my favorites still, despite the expansion itself being bad
lusty grotto
i absolutely fucking hated the tourney because of that unhittable set farming for heroic anub
oh yeah BRF was great
chrome harbor
also really liked naxx despite only seeing the warth version, i was a casual in classic
thin mortar
cata was great imo until dragon soul, LOVED firelands
neon tangle
naxx was reused, vault and obsidian were dumb/small, eye of eternity was also just a single room
lusty grotto
i only tanked 4horseman on classic naxx because guilds needed a shitton of warriors for it
didn't really do any of the other fights since i was a PVP member
neon tangle
basically Ulduar and ICC were the only non-single-room raids for the whole expansions
chrome harbor
yea i mostly pvped and did the 20 mans in classic, then again I Think you could fit the classic naxx 40 raiders in a room
young iris
Generally speaking each expansions 2nd tier is regarded the best: SSC/TK, Ulduar, Firelands, ToT etc...
lusty grotto
i liked BT more than SSC/TK
chrome harbor
rip wod not having a mid tier
lusty grotto
resist gear vomit
neon tangle
BC had kara, the eye, hyjal, BT, SSC, ZA, sunwell....
wild atlas
I think BT was the resounding favorite
thin mortar
I've never thought of it that way, I very much agree @young iris
neon tangle
so many amazing raids
thin mortar
nighthold was hella fun also
lusty grotto
fuck nighthold
neon tangle
Gruul and mag were even more fun than half the WOTLK 1-room raids
young iris
Sunwell not so much, but I did enjoy BT
chrome harbor
ehhhh I didnt really care for any of the Legion raids...
lusty grotto
ToS was better, i could tank in there
neon tangle
I -loved- Kara
chrome harbor
but ToS was fun as prot
thin mortar
you didn't like mythic Augur? 😆
wild atlas
Nighthokd is first tier technically.
lusty grotto
pre nerf Spell Reflect solo tank first boss in ToS 😃
wild atlas
TOS was my favorite too
thin mortar
best fight in ToS.... I vote sisters
lusty grotto
haha
wild atlas
Jesus no
lusty grotto
my fave is still KJ
chrome harbor
KJ was fun to tank, but sisters was fun to dps
wild atlas
KJ most memorable boss in Legion. Bar none
thin mortar
nah, mythic maiden scarred my guild. lol because colors are hard
lusty grotto
maiden and avatar were fun too
thin mortar
it wasn't a bad fight aside from the whole raidshot idea
chrome harbor
i still remember going into lfr maiden for the first (and only) time, and i think i was more confused then they were
lucid kelp
ok team. Should I race change to Dark Iron dwarf? it's awesome for anti bleed....but Im a lightforged Draenei named Pilot of the Exodar right now and I really dont wanna give that up
lusty grotto
rofl
wild atlas
I think you should buck up and race change to Highmountain Tauren
neon tangle
@lucid kelp Fun name > racials
chrome harbor
dark iron > nightlight variety of space goat
thin mortar
bah! @wild atlas beat me to it!
thin mortar
I really feel like stomp is better than charge for tauren racials. feelsbadman
chrome harbor
probably, but aesthetics > racials
sand egret
which is why dorf > all
wild atlas
Can you cancel the charge? I have no HMT
sand egret
beards > all other options