If you have ip of 300 you take the remaining 300
#protection
junior igloo
IP gets fully consumed in most relevant situation.
The absorb cap is the limiting factor (rather than the duration)
raven kernel
In fact sb and ip together is extreme mitigation
fathom marten
Yeah you're taking more damage the way you were writing it out
Basing it off the initial hit
For each
Then adding the two
raven kernel
Completely wrong math there
fathom marten
Yeah it was confusing to me at first I was like wtf is going on lol
honest geode
My math was correct REI - we came to the same number
raven kernel
No
honest geode
Look at it again
raven kernel
You were adding after the block lol
honest geode
I asked which one was correct
raven kernel
How do u go from 600 to 700
fathom marten
Neither are ???
tight tree
Maybe they could make IP absorb more when SB is not up or have less than 2 seconds left, to cover for gaps
honest geode
Is it: 1000 physical -> blocked (400) = 600 -> IP (300) = 700 mitigated
How is that not correct
fathom marten
Hm guess I missed that
honest geode
Yep
raven kernel
The way ip works is actually very effective when stacked with percentage reductions
honest geode
Ya - if they reduced the rage cost or upped the total dmage - it would account for alot of weakness right now
raven kernel
But using raw ip is terrible since the value isn't high and gets chewed through really quick - a common complaint of lesser skilled warriors that focus too much on ip
honest geode
I mean ip+sb gets me through times on sekvoz - where i dont have a major cd
raven kernel
Don't forget spell reflect and ip on void lash
honest geode
Ah smart
raven kernel
And demo shout covers entire combo
honest geode
Ya - def been doing that
raven kernel
The combo is a joke to us on heroic when played right
On mythic it's fine as well just hurts a little more
Esp since ur prob swapping after 2nd hit on mythic
honest geode
While i have you - is there a guide someplacethat expounds on the order of operations - for example what if we added demo shout to the earlier combo
Where is it calculated in the order
hot locust
@raven kernel we were still taking the whole combo on mythic
hot locust
No real reason not to as you can still be well above like 30ish% just with LS+SR
raven kernel
Cos we wanted mass grip
Demo, shield wall, block are all percentage dmg reductions so they - should- be multiplicative with each other
honest geode
You said absorbs are calculated differently though? All percentage based are added together and appliedat the same time?
raven kernel
Ip says 50% but it's technically just a power word shield that's capped at 50% of the remaining hit
It's not a real 50%
honest geode
Lets just take my example back here
Is it: 1000 physical -> blocked (400) = 600 -> IP (300) = 700 mitigated
assuming IP can take the full hit
old dagger
quick question: if I understand it correctly, Bolster makes LS like a SB on CD. It behaves the exact same way as SB (except for the heal)?
honest geode
Is it: 1000 physical -> blocked (400) = 600 -> IP (300) + demo(120)= 820 mitigated
raven kernel
You don't get crit blocks with bolster
calm cove
Its an absorb that cant prevent more than set percentage of the hit
raven kernel
Panda, no
raven kernel
So let's say your block is worth 40% reduction
honest geode
yep
honest geode
Ah roger
raven kernel
480 remaining, ip of 300 will be capped at 240
You take 240 to face with leftover 60 ip
junior igloo
why is that?
round vortex
The formula is 1 - (1-DR) * (1-DR) etc... for however many damage reductions apply. That will give you the %. Then absorbs come after that.
honest geode
Sorry - im sorry bear with me - Why are demo shout and SB calculated together while IP is applied after the fact
Thansk baratus
answered it right there
round vortex
Anything that’s a % mitigation is multiplicative. If they were additive you could become immune lol
50% DR plus 50% DR doesn’t give you 100% DR hehe
But absorbs are additive and calculated after 😃
honest geode
Roger - was just curious why IP wasnt factored in there.. absorbs are in there own class - roger
round vortex
Yup 😁
So another example for magic damage.
Would be if you had spell reflect up and shield wall. You could use the same formula. If you had shield block as well you wouldn’t count it since it doesn’t block magic damage (in most cases)
honest geode
Yep
round vortex
IP demo shout and shield wall work on all kinds of damage. Block and the effect from last stand don’t 😁
I’m sure you get it just thought I’d add that for any lurkers lol
honest geode
Yeah - thank you rei and baratus.- What were the azerite changes @real rover
honest geode
oh - jeeze. Youd think we get soem love some time around. Guess its just not our xpac.. Gave us too much love early legion
junior igloo
Laser Matrix and Thunderous Blast were the 2 strongest traits for most classes and they both got nerfed, sounds like a good start to me
mortal pike
How good is archive for us now?
junior igloo
It's pretty good, it was good before the change as well
honest geode
Anyone have a good guide or read about prot warrior traits?
mortal pike
pins
mortal pike
Would like to know if the breakpoint for going Archive over Bfi has changed
on the bis helm
jade tartan
Have you guys seen the reddit post ?
first comment:
I started doing mythics with prot, it’s so stressful. Can’t hold threat, can’t stay alive, but my blood DK feels like a superhero.
honest geode
Thnaks for the help guys - does the community have an etherem donation address?
jade tartan
Holy shit, i've done +11 yesterday with my 358 and had none of those issues
How many bad Prot Wars are out there? :<
raven kernel
That thread is just a collection of bad warriors
honest geode
What post
raven kernel
mortal pike
Reddit 😃
tight tree
That is the people Blizzard designing for
honest geode
While i agree - its alot of people just complaining - i have to agree it needs a bit of help
fiery pendant
Jinx
inner trail
"You stun for 2 seconds, but have 1 second Gcd. So you have a stun for 1 second" lmao
real rover
I just want deafening crash either fixed so ilvl upgrade is ilvl upgrade or the lootchance for it to not be absolutely RNG in the higher ilvlranks. Oh and IP could need an increase from 1.3 to 1.5
honest geode
A 2 second reduction on SB recharge and doubling or changing IP to 5* AP would go a long way
raven kernel
Ikr
robust urchin
while prot warrior is not bad it still sucks seeing other tanks just be better all around
except maybe for bears
raven kernel
Just read all the comments if u want an ego boost
tight tree
Bears are just awful all around. They managed to make most boring spec ever MORE boring.
merry cave
I've been playing prot since BFA in exchange in Germany on an oce realm so perma 400ms still have 0 threat issues ever
fiery pendant
Probably too busy spunking rage into overcapping IP
inner trail
People can't even pull from you on skittish as prot
fierce halo
Complaining about not being able to hold threat clearly shows the poster doesn't know how to play... Skittish is not even noticeable as prot warrior
merry cave
IP is a bit of a noob trap which is made worse by idiots saying We need it up always or people die
inner trail
Thats how OP we are
raven kernel
Yeah skittish doesn't exist to us
tight tree
Well this post just shwos that it is impossible to play prot decently without reading guides and speccing 1 viable talent setup
fiery pendant
That’s beyond the majority of WoW players apparently
raven kernel
Well
merry cave
Wait charge isn't on gcd
fiery pendant
It is
raven kernel
It's on 0.5s
merry cave
But it's seperate to the main gcd right
inner trail
I really want the old stun charge back personally, can leave everything else alone 🤔
raven kernel
No
tight tree
They just seems to want IP to be main mitigation lol
merry cave
Maybe it's the 400ms lol, I really didn't notice it at all
honest geode
Ya - i think they just want there 1 button goodness again
honest geode
I would be stoked if they just went backto a 12 second recharge on SB
raven kernel
You need a liiiiiitle amount of skill to use charge now
Like fetid knock back
When it's being cast, don't be on gcd
You can insta charge back
Mid air
robust urchin
also no matter how good a prot warrior can be people will still read these threads and just not take any prot warriors into mythics
raven kernel
Transcendence or deaths advance kek
tight tree
Block is just never explained in game, so they think ooh absorb shield, that must be main button. Block? Wat it do
fiery pendant
That’s the feelsbad man bit nano
robust urchin
any key above 4 i did as arms because i couldnt get into groups as prot
inner trail
who cares pushing your own key is better anyway
fiery pendant
I just run with guildies these days
honest geode
At a average gear like me at 355 - the max SB/Blocking uptime you can achieve (including bolster from last stand) is 60%
fiery pendant
I am become one with the ribbing for playing prot lol
raven kernel
Can't wait for ion to go on stream and answer prot war question
mortal pike
Probably not
robust urchin
as if
raven kernel
"l2p"
tight tree
He will not
mortal pike
they don't care about tanks
robust urchin
THere is more important things to talk about
tight tree
"GIT GUD"
broken kite
0% chance of prot being mentioned in stream lol
tight tree
PET BATTLES
robust urchin
oh right
fiery pendant
I’ll be surprised if they even tell us what they’re doing to shamans and priests tbh
robust urchin
"Can i play allied races without rep yet?"
fiery pendant
And those changes are already announced
raven kernel
Hey thicc humans is important
tight tree
Who cares orc already thicc
raven kernel
U only good for werk werk
broken kite
😠
tight tree
I am hard work-working tank
Nothing bad about it
Work-work, block-block
THUNDERCLAP
raven kernel
Next week is fortified teeming
I told my dk guildie I'm gonna clap some fools
He thinks I'm gonna have to kite 🤕
robust urchin
this reminds me how my guild leader prot warrior tanks m+
Charge>SB>Last Stand
And refreshes SB
raven kernel
He needs a combined block wa
robust urchin
he needs to get benched
he doesnt even have 1 good azerite trait
he has 2 bloodsports and 1 reprisal
robust urchin
because he made the guild
tight tree
Deafening crash or riot
tight tree
eh
sick sentinel
the problem with prot is that we have no niche to fill, bad for mythic progression, bad for high m+ keys
raven kernel
^
sick sentinel
you would never bring a prot over a monk on fetid for example
raven kernel
world first race guilds not picking prot warrior doesnt mean we cant do mythic
merry cave
I can't read anymore of that thread, the stupid is just too much. They'd all rather cry they can't face roll than learn to play
sick sentinel
i'm talking about niches
old dawn
welcome to the reddit?/forums.
robust urchin
BuT ScO SaYs PrOt SuCkS!
raven kernel
u could argue brew/prot is one of the best combos for fetid
brew/brew wont work for regular guilds because their healers arent method quality
its an insane mana sink to use brew/brew on M fetid
mortal pike
Still waiting for Sense to give us a fetid pov
raven kernel
think he's still stuck on vectis last i checked 😦
mortal pike
ye
raven kernel
im on vectis too huehue
mortal pike
same
raven kernel
but i prob aint tanking it
mortal pike
Hes getting to fetid before me though
raven kernel
its nice to have multiple tank options on our raid tho
brew perma MT cos OPAF
i tanked taloc mother
dk tanked zekvoz and will prob do vectis too
mortal pike
brew on zekvoz 🤔
raven kernel
and i should be tanking again on fetid
our MT doesnt play other specs 😄
but its fine
old dawn
fetid feels like a great place for prot, it works really well for my group
raven kernel
it is
old dawn
we have our monk soak thrashes
mortal pike
Mythic?
raven kernel
it was honestly painful to watch method use double brew on fetid
fiery pendant
Their healers though
raven kernel
their healers are gods
merry cave
I just don't get it why is the predominant comment 'prot has no self heal therefore is not viable'
Did they start playing in legion?
raven kernel
legion babies
old dawn
People just expect tanks to heal themselves
blissful stirrup
well. Prot hade self healing befor legion to.
raven kernel
u know if details/skada/warcraftlogs just started counting blocked damage as "healing"
alot of people would shut up real quick
merry cave
Haha so sad but so true
prisma night
"People just expect tanks to heal themselves" sounds like wod tanking
surreal stump
and if details started showing spell reflect people would scream for nerfs
best to not have things showing imo
raven kernel
thats why we're sooo underrated
junior igloo
Main-tanking Fetid is just regular tanking.
Monks are pretty good on that for usual reasons (stagger + dodge).
Off-tanking on Monk means taking a lot of damage, but if you have the healing throughput, it's robust against 1-shots.
Paladin/warrior offtank will take less damage total, but you need to get fully topped every time and have a mitigation for every hit (below 50 % SotR/Shield Block by itself is not enough, so you have to double CD).
sick sentinel
there are comments in the thread that prot warriors struggle in mythic progression
prisma night
Ooo theres a qq thread? Where where
sick sentinel
prisma night
Shouldve known lol
surreal stump
but at least no ones posting videos of us doing something stupid with a skill/talent and getting it nerfed in 4 hours
fiery pendant
I guess our aoe doesn’t count as stupid anymore
old dawn
I do love pulling top dps in my mythic+ groups
smack lips
delicious
for real though, someone asking for Prot warrior to get a rework
please don't rework my boy
fiery pendant
Just needs a little tlc
prisma night
Ip buff or alter and we good
prisma night
That can come later
sick sentinel
sth to handle mobs, ranged kick, i dont know
junior igloo
Out healing required is already good.
Buffing IP would just mean we would take even less damage on average, but that's not our problem.
old dawn
yea you know, this is it
summer kestrel
disarm being baseline
old dawn
i'm just finally going to unsub from r/wow
this subreddit is unreal now
might as well go back to browsing the general forums 🤔
old dawn
yea, because it was actually okay for a little bit there
sick sentinel
i think the problem is that people that usually dps and then try to tank with prot get completly fked up in mythics
because as prot u need to plan ur mitigation ahead, and they know nothing
robust urchin
i think the main problem is just the bad PR
summer kestrel
the issue is being punished so hard and can't do jack shit when it happens
robust urchin
no matter how good i tank healers always complain about me taking to much dmg
compact mirage
No the main problem is a non fun prot warrior right now
old dawn
fuck as heck
hot locust
That's the problem though, it isn't that weak.
summer kestrel
oops
old dawn
i'm going to remember it
i really don't think prots that weak
we're hardly that far behind other tanks
if played well
hot locust
It is just significantly more punishing for every and any mistake.
cinder pasture
Funny, healers usually complain that I’m NOT taking damage
summer kestrel
no more unkillable than any other tank
prisma night
Id just like to see ip off gcd or half gcd
raven kernel
first time my gm priest did M+ with me in bfa
robust urchin
I just want heroic strike back
raven kernel
after the run: "i forgot you're a warrior"
sick sentinel
it is by far the hardest tank and u dont get rewarded that well
raven kernel
didnt even realise
summer kestrel
weird, I never was in a situation were I thought "If i had IP off gcd I would survive"
hot locust
That's because that wouldn't make that kind of difference
Our rage generation doesn't support it anymore.
prisma night
Its not to survive its just we cast it pretty often and want to be able to spend that gcd on something else. Makes it smoother to play imo
raven kernel
more devastate?
prisma night
Yeah and in turn would get more ss
prisma night
Devastate being boring is a seperate issue though
summer kestrel
and as panic oh shit I HAVE NOTHING ELSE
junior igloo
We are behind.
I don't know why people are resisting the idea so much here. 🤷
When you say that Ravager is not as good as Anger Management, there is no issue accepting that, one talent is just currently stronger than another, no big deal.
When you say that warriors are not as good as monks, there is a huge pushback for some reason and various rationalizations.
Like - you can still tank m+ and raids on a warrior. Of course you can, nobody is arguing that. It's just not as good as some other classes. Just like you can tank with Ravager and kill bosses, it's just not as good.
old dawn
nah, I mean, yes.
we're obviously behind
but people are making it sound like we're so far behind we need a FULL REWORK
I think that's an exaggeration
prisma night
^
old dawn
Not that we don't need any changes or could at least use some
raven kernel
i dont think any of us have said we're better than brews
old dawn
it's just not as dramatic and world shattering as the reddit thread made it sound
raven kernel
^
distant socket
Warriors suck RN compared to everyone else though. Why take a prot over any other class ? We bring nothing to the table except decent damage
junior igloo
Well obviously you don't need a full rework to make a class strong. You can always just create an invisible passive that doubles your armor - bam, best tank,
distant socket
There's a Reddit thread ?
compact mirage
Decent damage on tyrannical week my ass
raven kernel
when the complaints are "i cant hold threat" or "i cant maintain IP uptime"
obviously we have to refute shit like that
hot locust
Sure @junior igloo but from the same line people are arguing that protection is completely incapable of doing things. There is a level of hyperbole involved that is just unbelievable. Protection can currently tank every form of content out and do just fine, whether it be mythic raiding, M+, etc.
summer kestrel
"just fine" hmmm
prisma night
I think this discord is just trying to counter act all the doom sayers hyperbolic claims on threads
hot locust
Is it easier on other classes? Sure, I totally agree with that. Are there benefits to protection over other tanks right now? Yes, I think so.
summer kestrel
the only benefit is the dmg
hot locust
The only problem protection has is it's level of punishment for any and every mistake.
old dawn
reasons to bring warriors instead of other tanks: we're dope as hell
summer kestrel
which is a HUGE benefit
old dawn
i mean look at us
summer kestrel
but not at the cost of being dead meat at the first mistake
prisma night
Dont fuck up
summer kestrel
and mistake with a lot of """""" because those ain't mistakes
prisma night
Lol
junior igloo
Yes, it's easier to play some other tanks, but even if you play a warrior well (and overcome the higher skill floor), it's still not quite at the level of other classes¨
hot locust
They need a way to lower the skill floor so more people have accessibility to playing it at their level without buffing the top end into OP status.
That's hard to do.
I don't think that's true.
I think warrior played at a high level is performing just as well as other tanks (in raid at least).
deft ether
what would you recommend? a small increase to magic resistance to help with the chain-casting m+ hell we deal with now?
hot locust
In M+ I can see your argument being true.
distant socket
@hot locust what are the benefits over other tanks? Generally curious
summer kestrel
finishing a m+ dealing 3/4 the dmg of another dps
hot locust
Stronger up-front ways to deal with huge tank-busters and higher dps. The problem is that in order for the former to actually be effective you have to be playing at a level most people do not manage.
astral crystal
just play a demon hunter and you have comparable damage with the best cc in the game Kappa
old dawn
then you have to be playing DH 🤢
summer kestrel
DH gets hit in the face
astral crystal
yeah leather tanks are grotesque
astral crystal
we're talking m+ here
raven kernel
yeah not even in M+
astral crystal
yeah you're wrong
summer kestrel
so wrong lol
hot locust
DH is definitely doing well in M+.
summer kestrel
DH playing as it best is by far the best tank in M+
all that utility dmg and speed
raven kernel
all my healers prefer healing my warrior than my dh
old dawn
well yea
raven kernel
pre raid
summer kestrel
its like a warrior but better
old dawn
healers are going to hate healing a DH
because they get bopped
but they're still one of the strongest M+ tanks because of their damage
and mobility
raven kernel
still less dmg than us
old dawn
and they can heal themselves a little
junior igloo
Just a couple of examples:
It was hard tanking Taloc on a warrior (solo soaking). We were lucky in a way that we had a lot of externals with out healer composition in that run.
On a paladin, you can do it with no externals np.
It's hard off-tanking Fetid on a warrior when you get 1-shot even with Shield Block up.
Our maintank used to play a warrior as his main and he plays multiple tanks at high level. I don't think that he struggles with "not being good enough to make warrior work".
It's just that even well played warrior isn't as good as a well played monk on the relevant bosses
hot locust
You definitely live fetid with just SB.
summer kestrel
off tanking fetid as a warrior is the dumbest shit you can do
hot locust
< did thrashes this week
junior igloo
Can you post me a link to that?
astral crystal
Post nerf thrash is survivable
prisma night
Sub 50 thrashes i think meiffer meant
raven kernel
can you elaborate on the taloc too
astral crystal
Prenerf was sketchy
junior igloo
@raven kernel
You get a debuff that explodes for 800k.
You can either split it with other raid members (which can get messy since they get the spread-out debuff at the same time) or you can solo soak with a cooldown
hot locust
post 50% you may need more, but not much especially since I have more block value now.
raven kernel
oh
raven kernel
well thats just you causing your own problems
by wanting to solo soak
its meant to be split
its easily achievable to gather on the tank
talocs autos on you are a joke
old dawn
how dare you have both Last Stand and Shield Block up for one of those thrashes Lala
hot locust
they were pretty scuffed pulls
junior igloo
It's the same idea as Maiden Hammers, it's meant to be split.
But if you have a tank that can solo, why wouldn't you?
old dawn
lol
hot locust
and during the last 15 mins of raid while we were just messing around 😛
astral crystal
The debuff you get is raid basics 101 lol
astral crystal
If there’s failure at soaking it that’s on your raid
hot locust
heehee
old dawn
<3
astral crystal
Not on prots surivability
old dawn
i do that shit often because I'm hot trash
raven kernel
i guess its the spec's problem when you chose a strat that isnt suitable for it
old dawn
i need to make a weak aura to yell at me when I double stack block
astral crystal
Idk it’s a basic coordination effort
junior igloo
@astral crystal
Well, you can go to bed with the warm feeling that the wipe wasn't your fault or you can 1-shot the boss instead 😛
astral crystal
It wouldn’t be your fault if nobody soaks it though
hot locust
I agree doing things like that when it comes with significant risk of damage to your whole raid is valuable @junior igloo, but on Taloc if like 5-6 people are in it it's not doing much.
astral crystal
Would still have that comfy feeling
astral crystal
It’s not trivial, since it’s a do or die mechanic, just simple to handle
prisma night
I mean pally cant solo run an orb on ghuun. Some specs just can do nifty things sometimes
hot locust
Slightly diverted but this is exactly what I mean when people are in this crazy state of hyperbole about prot being so bad right now.
astral crystal
Tfw sense is the only yellow that still plays prot FeelsBadMan
junior igloo
People overstate it, sure, but at the same time I don't like dismissing it as purely a "perception" problem, when we are weaker
hot locust
@astral crystal wtf
astral crystal
I watched the cast Lala, you can’t fool me
prisma night
Its a mix of both i agree @junior igloo
junior igloo
@hot locust
Well you took 170k hit with Shield Block + IP + versa weapon proc, below 50 % that would be 212k+
old dawn
we're definitely a little weaker
hot locust
sure, and below 50% I'd be playing differently.
hot locust
I can link you the only public DK log
where he had an external for literally every thrash below 50%
old dawn
because it's the wow community
hot locust
or VB/IBF
half tide
hey guys, some1 here has a link with "racials sim dps", for prot warriors? TY!
hot locust
Like.... this is so dumb.
valid gorge
for most of the wow community, we are unplayably bad though
prisma night
Lel sims
valid gorge
because most of them suck
prisma night
Nice joke
old dawn
t r u e
amber siren
the entire post is hyperbole but i honestly wouldn't say no to lowering the punishment for play mistakes
raven kernel
sure
valid gorge
no wonder there is a perception problem, if you have to play like a god for a class to even be viable
raven kernel
the punishment for bad prot players is too high right now
that needs to be addressed
prisma night
Agreed
raven kernel
i've never downplayed that
old dawn
i just don't want us to slingshot too far the other way
prisma night
But i also dont want us to turn into brew
old dawn
because I'm legitimately enjoying playing prot
prisma night
I kinda like dying if i fuck up. Just a little
old dawn
same
junior igloo
Getting a 5 % stamina/hp buff would be a nice bandaid.
It would decrease our damage taken/healing required (which is already low), but it would help with the quick deaths/1-shot problem.
prisma night
Cuz brew is a snore fest
hot locust
I'd actually agree to that.
raven kernel
5% hp more would be nice
prisma night
Yeah thatd be a good starting point
valid gorge
if you want to have that (the dying when you fuck up bit) + have no perception problem, all tank classes should die when they fuck up
raven kernel
our hp honestly is really low right now
amber siren
dying with mistakes is fine, but the margin between dying with a mistake on a brm vs prot war shouldn't be night and day apart
hot locust
I still would rather get SB CD reduced.
valid gorge
right now that's pretty much only prot and DH
raven kernel
and i dont see the design necessity of it (to be this low)
astral crystal
Just spec indom bro
hot locust
going from 13 sec in legion to 18 is too far a jump
junior igloo
More generally rearranging the talent tree to fix the cooldown synergy with AM and maybe some IP change would be ideal
astral crystal
There’s your missing health
prisma night
Lol
raven kernel
indom lel
astral crystal
That talent seriously needs a nuke
prisma night
It wouldnt take too much to start fixing the problem
raven kernel
nerfing BV AM synergy would lower the skill cap on the spec
they'd have to compensate us elsewhere
old dawn
man yea, make SB's cooldown lower so I can basically have 100% uptime on that shit
lol
part of me wishes AM was just baseline because obviously I'm never picking another talent besides it on that tier
green pulsar
why all the prot hate? https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/2430361-Proof-that-prot-is-trash
reddit also hating on prot
i dont get it, explain please
prisma night
Talents are super stale that could use some looking at. Illusion of choice
amber siren
the wow reddit is a fucking meme
junior igloo
Right now Anger Management is balanced (arguably) assuming just "regular" cooldowns.
But when it works together with BV + Bolster + UF, there is no contest.
Similar with those individual rows.
BV vs. Devastator could be balanced fine, but it assumes you get the benefit of BV every 45s. When you have Demo Shout every 25s, it's the only choice.
Bolster vs. Indomitable is pretty close, too, if your LS is at 2 minutes. With LS every 70s, no way.
What they should do is move talents, so that BV, Bolster and UF are all at the same talent row. That way you always have exactly one of them (never 0, never 2+) and you can balance AM assuming exactly 1 of those shortened cooldowns is buffed by another talent.
surreal frigate
because prot warriors are dogshit right now and anyone who claims otherwise is no offense extremely ignorant
hot locust
feels bad to be extremely ignorant man 😦
surreal frigate
prot warriors has never been as bad as they are right now and they are by a significant margin the worst tank
hot locust
Feels bad to be even worse than NH man
old dawn
i hated prot through the majority of WoD
hot locust
No one remembers BRF apparently
old dawn
yea
green pulsar
lol
old dawn
was really fucking good to just get smoked
junior igloo
How can you remember BRF when you played a monk or DK? 😄
hot locust
We're far better off than we were in BRF or NH
old dawn
i switched to dk in BRF
surreal frigate
prot warriors are fine in your top 10k guilds that are still struggling to kill ghuun on normal
old dawn
because I didn't want to be a burden on the guild
surreal frigate
but any guild that wants to kill a boss within a reasonable timeframe will not bring a prot warriors
old dawn
right now I'm far from a burden with my guild so long as I'm playing well 🤔
green pulsar
I tanked a m10 just fine as prot, we even +2'd it. you know how hard that shit is with skittish?
old dawn
🤔
prisma night
Lol normal ghuun? Thats not even hard for prot
surreal frigate
skittish is a joke today, its arguably the easist affix possible
green pulsar
not with a top 50 DH and Mage lol
green pulsar
and all my azerite traits are still arms kek
old dawn
i don't doubt it
astral crystal
Whose ready for a 385 piece with dc today
old dawn
but I don't go anywhere without my deafening crash
green pulsar
but IP on global is kinda ass my only complaint for prot atm. the dps is amazing doing 18-25k on pulls is nice
hot locust
still rocking 340 shoulders with them
old dawn
nah i misremembered
i got the 340 dc
but the 370 BfI one
i was rocking the DC helm
and got a 370 helm and the shoulders from Boralus
green pulsar
im ready for the 385 gear i already have
sick sentinel
Hey all, just resubbed. Prot war main. What's the damage, how we lookin?
surreal frigate
@hot locust hf on fetid, you'll probably see yourself drop 250 world ranks before you kill it
sick sentinel
and by damage, I don't mean our dps ;P
hot locust
kk buddy o/
old dawn
if you listen to the reddit and the forums we're hot garbage
amber siren
're probably one of the best tanks on thetid rn with our cd's
but have fun being trash i guess
old dawn
but the truth is we're just a touch weaker than other tanks.
amber siren
ya
ember arrow
Worst example
old dawn
high skill floor overall.
gentle rain
Ignore pain in Gcd makes prot feel like shit
prisma night
Yikes trump
green pulsar
charles aint wrong though
knotty apex
mfw "prot warrior needs rework" is top of the subreddit lol
green pulsar
i dont think it makes it feel like shit but annoying af
valid gorge
A rework, rather than flat buffs/debuffs is probably what we need the most, yes :D
knotty apex
i was talking about this last night with a couple of people
doesnt need a rework but the values and numbers can be a bit more generous 😛
gentle rain
Game flow is wanky campared to my bdk
sinful vortex
Buff sb cd 😡
knotty apex
yeah but that slike
valid gorge
only one viable talent path, very high skill required to even be viable, clunky IP rotation
knotty apex
comparing apples to oranges
valid gorge
sounds like a rework is in order
knotty apex
prot warriors are fine its just people complaining too much about the GCD change
gentle rain
Nah just nerfs to talents to make them all just as good
knotty apex
every single time someone talks about it it's literally the gcd that they complain about
valid gorge
not _the_complaint
knotty apex
"feels clunky"
yeah but that doesn't justify a rework because it's a new epxansion with a new playstyle
you feel me?
valid gorge
No.
knotty apex
ok then explain
knotty apex
explain the problems with prot warrior and give me some solutions then]
not trying to be paassive agressive I had a conversation with about 3 people about this and most of them agreed with me at the end of it
valid gorge
The biggest issue, and in my eyes a very justified complaint, is that a terminator god tier warrior player that presses 1 button 0.2 seconds to late will drop like a wet rag, while donald trump playing Brewmaster monk rolling his face over the keyboard gets to be in the progression raid
that is the complaint
knotty apex
ok but
leave any other class out of it
and give me the problem for prot warrior and the solution
lol
valid gorge
the way WoW is played, you can not leave other classes out of it
ember arrow
What do u mean leave others out of it
valid gorge
because raids and m+ parties are constructed out of a pool of classes
summer kestrel
the problem is that we are weak and have no countermeasures
ember arrow
U can call something bad bby comparing it
gentle rain
I personally dont care about the numbers I'm not pushing keys or mythic
summer kestrel
our weapon is prevention
knotty apex
because the problem with people complaining about how a class works is they automatically compare x class to Y class
what i'm asking is
gentle rain
Gameplay just needs a lil boost
knotty apex
what is the problem with ( protection warrior) and what are the solutions for ( protection warrior)
ember arrow
If a dk can ignore one mechanic a warr cant. A comparison is in order
valid gorge
very simple example
ember arrow
For example
summer kestrel
what mechanics can we ignore?
ember arrow
U dont need to provide solutions
junior igloo
@summer kestrel Pain 😄
ember arrow
I dont need to be a master chef to tell that a meal tastes bad
summer kestrel
the electrified path on sethrallis
valid gorge
you need to be a master chef to tell why a meal tastes bad though
dull pilot
can anyone here say prot warrior feels fun to play? thats the problem
ember arrow
Dk cant be slowed
ember arrow
U can walk tru spheres on mythrax to collect orbs
summer kestrel
and very punishing
valid gorge
mechanically i think prot is pretty fun to play as well
sinful vortex
I like prot its pretty fun
dull pilot
sure it can be played sure but your crazy if you enjoy this play style
ember arrow
U can ignore one of applications of void lash
valid gorge
in context of the current meta
knotty apex
imagine a blizzard dev specializing in the warrior class is listening and you can convince them to change things about prot warriors, listing only the problems is not a good way to make change, you wont give them ideas on how to change it. When you're discussing something and you WANT change, you list the problems and ways to FIX the problem it's jusst like real life when you're working at your job.
ember arrow
To name a few
valid gorge
is it extremely u-fun
unfun*
I dread the day a prot warrior dev comes here for advice
gentle rain
Yeah that seems reasonable
dull pilot
u need your head look at if you think this is fun in m+ and raids
valid gorge
all he will hear is "change IP GCD and we will be fine"
raven kernel
i enjoy prot @@
sinful vortex
Lol "i dont like it so anyone who does is retarded" nice
summer kestrel
let met tell that "in real world" you don't go to tell how to fix something to the guy who fix things
you go tell him you have a problem
old dawn
sorry that i enjoy things that take thought and effort
valid gorge
Sure Link34, but it helps if you can describe your problem very accurately
junior igloo
@knotty apex
Players are usually limited in imagination.
Most would ask for numerical buffs or abilities that other classes have (because that's what they know).
Getting with new creative ideas design wise is not easy, because most of us have limited PoV.
When you raid, you don't immediately see how the proposed changes would affect dungeons or PvP etc.
dull pilot
the ppl that says they enjoy it are doing +10 keys if not then sorry but your not haveing the same chat
sinful vortex
I just tanked two 10s last night as prot lol
summer kestrel
im myself doing +10 keys as prot, I CAN do them
valid gorge
Numerical changes would only be bandaid fixes that will be broken in future patches
like i said
dull pilot
i am doing 10 and 11 keys yes i can get them done no its not fun
valid gorge
stuff needs to be reworked.
gentle rain
Yeah I've done a few 10s
summer kestrel
but at the same time I see how my healer struggles at the first time shit hits the fan
and I do +10 keys too as arms
knotty apex
I mean i've already voiced my opinion on why I like and dislike prot, it's not far off from what people say but the difference is i'm giving the problem and the SOLUTIONS for fixing the problem. Most people play the class for a week and complain on reddit about it without actually trying to look for things to try to fix so a majority of players are complaining about the playstyle etc. @junior igloo Also for clarification I was speaking about pve only I should have said that haha, But yeah if it's anything else I try to clarify and keep an open mind on how it affects anything outsside of dungeons and raids.
summer kestrel
and its night and day how it goes with a dk tank vs how it goes with me
valid gorge
If the design is done right, any player can pick any tanking class and find content to do at the level his gear is at
that's the ultimate goal
they should aim for
obviously it is an impossible goal
but the closer they get, the better
dull pilot
warrior was not finished ip was taken away and put back and taken away in the end they gave it to us because they ran out of time
valid gorge
and right now prot warrior is the furthest off from that goal
dull pilot
warrior was not finihsed
summer kestrel
IP is hot garbage
raven kernel
@summer kestrel as warrior when shit hits the fan i can pop cds and stabilize the situation, grab aggro etc
as vdh once i grab aggro im hightailing it out of there
dull pilot
they know whats wrong with warrior
dull pilot
they rushed it
amber siren
yes my two buttons on my bar are
summer kestrel
bolster is not a cd
summer kestrel
demo is not a cd
valid gorge
bolster and demo are part of your rotation, they are not emergency cooldowns
amber siren
i am nothing but shield
old dawn
demo is for sure a cooldown
summer kestrel
those are baseline rotation so you don't die
knotty apex
@valid gorge THANK YOU
junior igloo
Yeah, it does feel like they didn't quite have the time to polish it and then threw in IP as a bandaid for the "what to do with rage" problem
dull pilot
they have said in q&a
valid gorge
thank me for what?
dull pilot
they did not have time to fish it
raven kernel
if you have bolster available and someone aggros an extra pack
of course im popping it
its a cd
dull pilot
so gave us ip back and said will fix l8ter
compact mirage
@raven kernel Demo is no cooldown at all. It is underline mandatory.
raven kernel
then i save the SB rage and get more IPs
knotty apex
@valid gorge it's rotation because of anger management, it lowers the CDS on our DEFENSIVES
dull pilot
then bfa came out
knotty apex
@valid gorge thats what I meant 😛
valid gorge
it's rotation because if you don't use them, you have gaps in your mitigation and you drop like a wet noodle
raven kernel
you guys are just arguing semantics
dull pilot
was a patch job blizz has said this
junior igloo
I'm a little afraid that they won't be willing to redesign mid-expansion. In which case a HP buff would be a sad band-aid, but it would make the class competitive, at least for raiding.
(Still there would be only 1 talent option etc.)
amber siren
wait what consitutes a cooldown nowadays? like in M+ and raids, why would you hold onto your defensives for a rainy day? You're supposed to be using them constantly to get through packs asap
summer kestrel
you have huge utility and movement to not get hit at all
amber siren
like 
valid gorge
a complete overhaul is definitely not happening like Meif said
but reworking individual parts should be on the table imo
sinful vortex
Buff sb cd 😡
raven kernel
@amber siren maybe i was gonna shield wall 3 packs later
valid gorge
only way they will solve this without bandaiding whole xpack long
summer kestrel
using shield wall on cd wtf
astral crystal
We have to wait until 8.1 to receive nerfs
junior igloo
If they are willing to move around talents in the tree, any maybe some IP redesign, that would be ideal
valid gorge
The only skill we have that fits your discription is shield wall @raven kernel
dull pilot
we can tank everything the others can just we cant make mistakes
valid gorge
everything else is not some magic buttton you can press to stabilize things
amber siren
Yeah but that's like any other class? You want to use your CD at x point, someone does something dumb, you adapt
Doesn't make it not a cd
knotty apex
like I've said before and i'll say it again like I said last night. a REWORK is NOT needed, only values and numbers tweaked would make prot competitive with the other tanks
knotty apex
class rework*
valid gorge
I disagree with that
raven kernel
vdh has jack shit for cds
valid gorge
numbers tweak will temporarily fix it for this patch
but it will be the same thing over every patch
amber siren
@raven kernel I wasn't arguing with you, more the idea that using CD's often doesn't make it a CD
knotty apex
take into consiteration our talent vanguard with gear over time also
compact mirage
Btw...can https://www.wowhead.com/spell=266237/debilitating-backhand be parried? I had many occasions where the 8s debuff was not applied.
summer kestrel
if you are apart enough doesn't hit you
ember arrow
@compact mirage yes
junior igloo
@knotty apex
Yeah, it's not needed to be competitive, but things like AM + ItF + Bolster + BV + UF being the only viable talent option (because of the synergy between the talents making each other stronger) will not be fixed with just number tuning
valid gorge
bingo
raven kernel
@junior igloo its dangerous to ask them to fix the talents because if they "balance" them but dont compensate us elsewhere, we will truly be gutted
valid gorge
if their way of balancing the talents of the most underperforming tank is to gut it even further there is nothing on this earth that can help them
:P
compact mirage
Btw that fucker is one of the many occasions where faster run comes in handy. I had a pretty sad moment yesterday where I leaped over him and he oneshot me mid air. Don't jump over that fucker on tyrannical with the debuff active >_<.
hazy path
I see a few prot warriors playing devastator on a few mythic/ heroic bosses. is that there hope for devastator? I mean dps wise those warriors aren't doing bad at all
valid gorge
I'm happy I leveled every class to 110 in preparation of this
raven kernel
no
knotty apex
@sick sentinel I mean you're right, sorry if i'm not making sense it's 5am here and the first thing I see on the wow subreddit is " prot warriors need rework" lol. I've already said last night, I think you were online when I was talking about it but I had ideas on how to make them feel a lot better. maybe i'll but in and post them in like a text file or something.
valid gorge
:D
raven kernel
then you have far bigger issues than your tank's talents
knotty apex
our dungeon dps on the other hand 😛
hazy path
what
gentle rain
I miss devastator so much
hazy path
if your not having issues surviving then yes you should think about dps hello?
summer kestrel
single target dps 😕
gentle rain
But it's fine just need to something with IP
hazy path
yeah stdps is not where it used to be in antorus gear
knotty apex
here how about this
summer kestrel
well why I agree that prot feels weak
summer kestrel
the only thing right now that I would do something with
is IP
right now is "why use it"
gentle rain
Wait Ip bubbles dont stack?
knotty apex
no
summer kestrel
not because IP is needed
knotty apex
IP is def needed
summer kestrel
but because it should be useful
knotty apex
go OT heroic fetid without block and IP
hazy path
ge ge
summer kestrel
why would you off tank fetid
knotty apex
im giving and example
an*
also IP stacks 2x goes to 75%
costs 30 rage what does 🛡 think about thiss
summer kestrel
come on man im not saying in 100% situations
most of the time IP is the rage spender
knotty apex
well most of the time when you're taking you need to save 70 rage when you're taunting back on the boss anyways so you can have IP and block up
or have 30 available and demo to ahve them up
summer kestrel
raid is it's own world
all the tanks are cool for raid
except you shouldn't off tank fetid as prot
raid is a closed patterned scenario
knotty apex
which is why I dont and I learned that the hard way on week 1 lol
summer kestrel
talking about m+
compact mirage
The prot warrior guide ability change list is such a sad story
junior igloo
Rage is our resource. Our rotation is basically generating rage. A major reason of why we prioritize some abilities over others (such as Shield Slam over Devastate) is to generate more rage.
So for it to make sense, we need some survivability increase from rage.
I kinda like the idea someone mentioned yesterday that it could be a passive of some sort (damage taken would passively be reduced but deplete your rage).
But obviously just IP can do the job with proper balance
knotty apex
the one thing I really was not sure about why they changed was the damage mitigation part of IP from 90% to 50% of the total shield
merry cave
Because they wanted to lower magic reduction
junior igloo
I think it's for some low level balance.
Because obviously it doesn't matter in relevant content, you will just reduce the max absorb either way
knotty apex
That I understand but they also took away the magic damage reduction from spell reflect with the artifact
merry cave
They just didn't adjust for rage change when they last minute tacked on old IP again after failing to change us and realising they were out of time
knotty apex
actually yeah, ignore pain was pretty dumb leving from 1-60
signal plover
SR still has a magic DR component
It's just lower than the artifact version and cancels on reflect
knotty apex
oh maybe I should look at my abilities lol I just now saw it as you typed that lol
signal plover
But it's still pretty effective from what I've seen in most encounters.
Plus reflecting 120k bloodbolts in 11 underrot is pretty solid :)
dark lagoon
they should bake anger management into the class as a passive put a real talen t to choose from in its place make ravaged grant party crit strike whole active. make repercussions to spell and put nelthations fury on place of am and make that actually good. and fix ignore pain.
ember arrow
They shouldnt go off in the first place
dark lagoon
wow phone auto corrected everything I typed.
signal plover
They should go off when u tell ur group you're reflectin em
dark lagoon
heavy repercussions dispels. ravager increases party crit onto of everything it does now. rally cry should grant the group 20% leech too. and anger manager baked onto the class. put nelthations fury in place of anger management make it a heavy spell damage CD
astral crystal
man
who actually complains when prot is strong
like what's the purpose
trying to remember early legion
and why there was a shitstorm
when druid was just as bad
signal plover
Early legion shitstorm was cuz we got nerfed from God tier to regular bois
delicate bone
im just depressed. Not a single reaction form the devs so far....
uneven mason
I remember, when people were like "Devastator whats this shit"
uneven mason
and then, folks were like Y U TAKE OUR GUD BOY DEVASTATOR AWAYS?
Y U CUT HIS NUTEERS OFF
Phamanso what reaction should the devs have?
"Golly, look at all these complaints we're receiving about a spec that numerically - is superior to the others in many situations?"
delicate bone
you find many "Prot warri is bad" post in blizzard forums. And not a single reaction to it.
raven kernel
ion gonna tell people to git gud on stream again
amber siren
blizzard has had a very common rule for like the past 10 years not to post on class forums
they certainly don't respond directly on reddit
uneven mason
- Looking for coherent information on the BNet forums is like asking a jr high soccer team to build a rocket engine
uneven mason
- I read those, and see no actual information provided that shows that the vast majority of those posters understand or are capable of playing protection warriors at the level required to feel good, most just seem to miss the DDR TUrbo HyperZ playstyle of last Xpac and lament that they can just bind IP to mousewheel and operate at 80% efficiency.
earnest zinc
It's not near as bad as the doomsayers say it is, but we could use a small buff.
frosty wedge
@uneven mason I"d argue that it's harder. haven't you seen October Sky?
uneven mason
🤢
frosty wedge
LOL
but yeah, reading the people on the forums talk about warrior makes my head hurt. one guy says he charges, shockwaves, DS, then TC
like, that's his opener
or wait. charge, shockwave, avatar, ds, tc
uneven mason
Shockwave used as an opener
hope you don't have anything that needs interrupting
shockwave and mouseover stormbolt so OP
not as OP
as Gorefiends though
we don't have gorefiends
warrior dogshit tier tank
earnest zinc
I felt OP on skittish as my dps could practically ignore the mechanic
uneven mason
"practically"
light fulcrum
Skittish is a joke every Tank
uneven mason
and learned his lesson
earnest zinc
I thought there was a bug where it wasn't in effect
uneven mason
except for druids
light fulcrum
Only eyebeam and bladestorm
frosty wedge
meh, good druids should still be fine
uneven mason
Should be
frosty wedge
dat pulverize tab target spam
frosty wedge
this week? fortified, raging, necrotic
blissful imp
That eu?
blissful imp
Or NA?
weak zephyr
"1. Looking for coherent information on the BNet forums is like asking a jr high soccer team to build a rocket engine" lmaoo
frosty wedge
blissful imp
I'm NAlol
uneven mason
EU doesn't know yet
frosty wedge
the week after
uneven mason
seriously
that Fortified + teeming
gonna be fun kite times
might as well be necrotic
blissful imp
Wew lad, fortified teeming KR, SotS. Yeeeeaaaa
uneven mason
"we're putting things into place to make kiting harder to maintain" - "Hey guys, now that we said that lets just fucking make every week a run for your life week'"
frosty wedge
LOL
green pulsar
lmao
astral crystal
they meant for non DH/DK tanks
frosty wedge
"things" are tight knit packs in tiny hallways that you can't navgate as a giant fucking cow
uneven mason
it could be worse
frosty wedge
who has a main ability that makes him even fucking bigger
astral crystal
yo consecrate slow is nuts
uneven mason
it could be fortified teeming raging
blissful imp
Gonna be 2 extra poisonbois in front of vakaal, isn't there?
uneven mason
or fortified teeming sanguine
I think so Jim
thats gonna be a shit pull
best clear both paths so you can do the long kite.
blissful imp
I'm fine with sanguine honestly. Just backpedal ez pz
uneven mason
Backpedaling is the #1 strat so far on Fortified
knotty ermine
Protip on kite week: get yourself a pocket monk
blissful imp
Then you get some fucker frost mage that roots them in the shit and makes them full heal 😬
frosty wedge
yeah except when you have mongo DPS stunning and slowing shit in sanguine
knotty ermine
All the narrow hallways + RoP is hilariously cheesy
uneven mason
I'ma run UnholyDK, Frost mage, Warlock I think
portal, blizzard and clutch grip
break them boys up
frosty wedge
anyone watching the method stream still?
uneven mason
here is dreaming for some 385 binders pauldrons
chilly brook
Fortified raging necrotic? 🤢
uneven mason
he was kidding
Fort Teeming quaking
next week is tyrannical raging necrotic
so you know, 2 kite weeks
put some running shoes on
ember arrow
kiting=tanking in wow zzzz
uneven mason
yeah
I agree
they should totally not have set the run timers to require tanks to pull enough mobs to choke a donkey.
uneven mason
and thats on Tyrannical weeks
uneven mason
I mean, in general
ember arrow
no reset yet for me
uneven mason
trash is harder than bosses
ember arrow
its good because u can cc trash
uneven mason
even when the bosses have the buff and the trash does not
uneven mason
Well thats the thing CCing trash, and you'll probably miss timer
ember arrow
infested bruh
uneven mason
or make it harder to reach timer ><
uneven mason
There is a reason why I won't do anything past 10
ember arrow
o ok
ember arrow
well u basically either burst down the infested guy
uneven mason
I know
ember arrow
but on forti hp is too high
uneven mason
gotta CC around em
uneven mason
rather CC and clear around em
ember arrow
yes