dark junco
Dark young drop his aoe debuff on eyes, everyone get 1 stack only
#protection
vale gorge
first phase of the g'huun fight is all about the gauntlets on the sides of the room
the middle part is irrelevant
raven kernel
i do first orb
vale gorge
only thing you can do is try to lower the amount of healing needed by killing stuff to conserve mana
vale gorge
then your orb runners need to go faster
raven kernel
need to do orbs way faster
vale gorge
on HC we never got to the point where the second Dark Young spawned
lapis pasture
raven kernel
yeah
raven kernel
we never saw it
junior ivy
it was our first time tryin it so i dunno the orb thing confusesd me
raven kernel
yeah dont use that for prot
vale gorge
if it was your first time, don't worry about it
raven kernel
you'll need to spend several wipes just for your orb runners to practice
dont worry about it
vale gorge
yeah
lusty karma
Is a 370 [Xalzaix's Veiled Eye] any decent?
merry cave
I'm using the claw it's ok. Better than my 340 stuff or my 355 bandage terrible trinket
fierce halo
Bandage was buffed tough :D
vivid orchid
as was the eye and some other stuff
vivid orchid
its like 3 ish IPs when it procs give or take your current gear
raven kernel
vivid orchid
yeah im not surprised
merry cave
Yeah I can't check now but 355 bandage prob only 60k ish but at least it's on use rather than random proc
weary notch
it's not that much. My 360 bandage is only like 49k
merry cave
Oh really -_-
weary notch
yup, 49,702
main vault
They are still shit
chilly brook
@empty birch any class than can keep ~70% uptime on a 20% damage reduction will be insane tbh
People are just sleeping on the class because they heard what one person had to say
next goblet
i dont run real high keys right now.. but honestly prot war really isn't doing me wrong.. haven't stepped into uldir yet though, how are we in there?
merry cave
Person above said mythic felt fine so far, guess that's the best you can ask for
fathom marten
Just went from 347 to 351 in like 2 hours lol.
next goblet
fair enough
fathom marten
Very happy.
fresh kernel
yo im looking around for azerite guides
no mention of filthy transfusion
what's up with that?
random jay
how is gearing going?
fathom marten
.........
Go away
I was just saying how happy I was hitting 351 and you come in here with that
restive mauve
next goblet
i really need to grind AP
errant dagger
I wonder why their is literally not a single tank warrior in progress raid hahaha
prisma night
Consistency is king on prog pushes
upbeat folio
So I got the barricade of purifying resolve @ 370 out of my weekly bag. It's crazy how big of a difference in mitigation there is between that and my 325.
ionic fern
No point playing a tank in world first progress that's punishing player mistakes. Rather just play a monk and you're safe. π€·
upbeat folio
Monk is so brain dead in comparison. At least for mitigation.
You really have to try to mess up your brews.
ionic fern
And that's what you want for world first race.
jovial reef
^
upbeat folio
Monks have been that way for ages, though.
ionic fern
Yes..and that's why they are in general the go-to progress tanks. π
upbeat folio
I guess it depends on what you do. I think DKs are still kings of mythic.
...and monks are the same, but for raids.
So, exactly how things were last expansion?
pure veldt
Hi, i'm a relatively new prot warrior who is tanking with his guild in HC uldir, the thing is that i struggle to maintain myself alive while trying to help my raid, is it normal? Can anyone tell me what am I doing wrong. Thanks for ur help π
prisma night
Logs would be a start
old zephyr
Any specific fights in mind ?
brazen yoke
RN the hype train is behind DH as the top pick for mythic, but my expectation is that in the long run DK tank probably has better potential. also, yeah, logs, build, rotation, we cant know what you are doing wrong if we dont know what you are doing.
brazen yoke
seems they are private
pure veldt
ok i will wait to my Rl to wake up and then i come back with them in npublic
empty birch
Who would I ping about getting my nickname set?
manic perch
we completely got wrecked by vectis normal last night, think our group was too small and we got overrun by omega vector, if you want to have a look at our best pull and give me some advise on what i did wrong?
empty birch
from what i've heard, vectis scales poorly in smaller groups
frail cedar
Is the mythrax trinket good now after the buff? Seems questionable still because of the crazy cd
Not sure if there are any actual good options for trinkets anyway though
empty birch
the buffs to the trinkets are situational at best
if you're not doing mythic content a secondary stat proc/one use would be a better choice
random jay
damn more upgrades to ilvl but shyte stats rip
anyone wanna plate stack some 10s this week?
got a h pally heals
old zephyr
@manic perch from what I see, you guys (tanks) are taking stacks of omega vector when you should not have any, so this could be improved
manic perch
yeah dps sleeping like noobs and in P2 stood on tanks giving us debuff
old zephyr
try do to dodge a bit more and stay away from DPSs
@random jay did the cap on M+ loot ilvl increase?
old zephyr
I need to get myself some good runs this WE, (today and tomorrow are raid days so i'll probable don't have time to run m+)
but I need to find myself good DDs, to run with
chrome falcon
is a 380 ring with crit/mastery weighted on crit better than 355 haste/mastery weighted on haste
probably not right?
i probably just got 2 monelite ore in my chest thank you blizzard
leaden kernel
dont scrap it you might need to trade rings to guildies
junior igloo
380 is a lot better
fathom marten
People keep referring to that stupid wowlogs graph of death % of tanks
Having to explain that it's a poor statistical example of warrior viability is becoming tiring
I don't understand why there is even a graph like that. It's common knowledge to base it on equal per x amount for a more clear representation
analog moss
How is warriors doing in a raid environment? And m+. Just started leveling my warr. And I intend to tank.
fathom marten
We are tough (if played right) but some classes just bring something better for pushing.
junior igloo
I don't understand what you mean, @fathom marten, about the death statistic
random jay
Warrior tanks are great for both
most mobs are stunnable and fearable. with that being said, u have a ton of aoe interrupts, pro kiting utility, insane aoe dps, rallying cry, attack power buff
but they are a lot more actions per minute than dk/dh is(the two other i have)
I'm 7/8h and pretty high ranked in io(Awetosis-Thrall)
analog moss
Thatβs good to hear. I heard some romours that warrior got shafted this exp
prisma night
If you play well it can do well
random jay
i think theyre harder and have a less impact when u start doing 11+, dk is simpler but i love the playstyle
fathom marten
So let's say there is 20 prot wars doing h uld and there 100 bdks doing h uld. There is going to statistical advantage for the bdk because they'll be more skilled players. Now you can say but they'll have bad players as well, which fair enough but if we are talking top 25% it's likely that the skill is there more then not. So there's more better tank representation of that class. @junior igloo
random jay
so i main my warrior
junior igloo
Is it because everybody good has rerolled?
And if so, isn't that an indication of the class balance as well?
random jay
I personally just want 3 dps war to stack with π¦
prisma night
Where is the assumption coming from that all good players have left the spec? What are we basing that assumption on? Seems like pure speculation
old zephyr
I want to do a 5 Lightforge draenei Warrior M+ run
kill things by dying, make it in time
tiny sphinx
as long as they are all females
upbeat folio
Is this where we point at Sco? 'cause it feels liek that's what's gonna happen.
old zephyr
It's all Sco's fault
prisma night
I dont think there is any actual evidence pertaining to what players have stayed or left any spec
old zephyr
This should become a meme
upbeat folio
Haha. It's giving him way too much credit. But it's kind of a meme.
old zephyr
Someone quick, make a meme out of it
fathom marten
@junior igloo we are already low in tanking population wise. Hasn't really changed there. If people are rereolling, that's not actual evidence for wars being bad, that could be evidence for a lot of things. That fact is, we mitigate damage better then most and we have pretty good planning strats with our cds. Also a fact, we are much harder to play in relation to other tanks and other classes have more utilities to bring to m+. It's more of a perception issue and class advantage issue then viability issue.
upbeat folio
Pay off vs difficulty is part of the equation.
surreal maple
Are we disscusing the exact same thing as yesterday?
upbeat folio
We discuss it every day.
prisma night
Pmuch
fathom marten
@surreal maple somewhat.. was mentioning how thag graph of death % is misrepresenting us.
tiny sphinx
I took the Thyme approach and lvl'd paladin first as a primary focus and warrior just kinda tags along getting hand-me-downs, but damnit it works
ionic fern
tiny sphinx
370 hands down
upbeat folio
sick sentinel
like 5% haste rip
tiny sphinx
don't worry, you're always going to be .... in the fray
sick sentinel
π
upbeat folio
/shades
tiny sphinx
queue that one song by The Fray
surreal maple
You would consider if it was like 5 ilvl, 10 maybe if it had a socket but 15 is pretty staright foward
junior igloo
I still don't quite understand.
The way I see it, there are two options:
a) The average skill spread is similar across all classes.
Sure, DKs will have more good players, but also more bad players and more average players.
In this situation the warcraftlogs statistics are reasonably accurate for what they represent.
b) DKs have higher percentage of better players and warriors have more bad players.
In which case the fact itself that good multiclassers chose to not play a warrior is evidence of the same fact (that we are one of the weaker tanks atm)
ionic fern
If you want a tank with decent mitigation + a lot of CD's you might as well go paladin and have heals ontop of it + group utility and cheese possibility. 
trigger warning
upbeat folio
fathom marten
@junior igloo First, let me state that, I do not think nor no one here think prot wars are the best, we simply argue that we aren't bad. It doesn't work exactly like that. More skilled and progression pushing players will likely pick the class that has more room for error and have more utillities across the board.
old zephyr
warrior do have cheas possibility man
tiny sphinx
soon, 370 gear isn't enough for the mastery meme build yet i don't think
junior igloo
How is "more room for error and more tools available" different from "being a better class" though?
tiny sphinx
once the secondary stat values get higher some stuff will change, i have no idea if for the better, but they will change some rules
fathom marten
@junior igloo I'm not arguing that prot war is better, I'm arguing that we are still viable and not bad.
junior igloo
Ok, fair enough
ionic fern
Everything is viable at some difficulty. π€·
static pilot
Keep in mind that viable means 'workable'
prisma night
Not bad and not comparatively bad are very different things
fathom marten
@junior igloo AND that the graph that keeps being linked around is a poor representation and misinformation of us. I mean, most people have never taken stastical classes so I can understand that a little bit but this seems very obvious to me.
prisma night
Compartively we are not very good. In general we arent bad
static pilot
Prot warrior is an iron shovel. It'll clear the snow out of your driveway just fine but it's gonna take you longer and burn more energy than if you had an aluminum shovel (DK/monk depending on the content)
fathom marten
@junior igloo As i stated before, even if the correct variables were applied to the graph, I'm sure we'd see something similar but not as extreme
ember arrow
@junior igloo SF argue against class 
tiny sphinx
iron also oxidizes and falls apart over time... are you calling us warriors burnt out old men?
because that is perfectly accurate
static pilot
Truth be told I think the warrior suffers a bit from antiquated design
fathom marten
ummm like in what way
static pilot
I'm in Skyhold, I figured I'd be diplomatic
ember arrow
@fathom marten how about our AM works only vs melees
tiny sphinx
i remember when shockwave used to do actual damage
ember arrow
Bosses in motherloade ignore it completely
fathom marten
@ember arrow Well, that doesn't seem to be old design flaw, more lack of designer imagination
tbf
I mean they kind of fixed it with legion IP
But obviously that was a mess
junior igloo
Paladin, DH, druid AM only work against melee as well
tight tree
Most of tanks mitigation is vs melee now
fathom marten
@junior igloo There self healing makes up for it
tight tree
Our magic mitigation is actually good if we can Demo shout it (read:be close). Every tank get trucked by magic damage. Self healing Makes it more safe because it partially removes need for healer (healers busy topping padding in fire rogues)
amber siren
Self healing has nothing to do with magic mitigation
tight tree
I never said it was magic mitigation lol
junior igloo
@ember arrow
Yeah, and melee are the majority of physical damage.
Bleeds are not affected by armor even though they are physical, so it's the same as well.
And the occasional special attack might or might not be reduced by armor or blockable. So yeah, there will be a couple of exception here and there where something is reduced by armor and not blockable or vise versa, but those are a bit rare
static pilot
It would be nice to have a bit more transparency in things like that
prisma night
Or consistency
fathom marten
@amber siren Of course its not m mit but self heals goes a long way
static pilot
One mob shoots as auto attack, blockable. Next mob channels 'shoot' with a rifle, not blockable
Frequently in the same dungeon
tiny sphinx
i also remember when arrows were blockable, which makes no fucking sense really
static pilot
How does blocking arrows not make sense?
tiny sphinx
guess hunters innately aim for our knees
was being facetious since it doesn't apply anymore for some damn reason
static pilot
Ah, hard to read sarcasm. Carry on
tiny sphinx
#blizzardlogic
static pilot
Especially when you're holding a shield the size of a barn door
manic perch
Bulwark of Azzinoth the only true shield that can block it all
tiny sphinx
which is what rogs were going to have in pre alpha builds, but it was scrapped, rogs could have been dedicated tanks back in the day
static pilot
Add a fourth spec, Earthwarden
Balances out the four elements angle
Air for enhance and melee, fire for elemental, water for resto, and Earth for tanking
merry cave
I really hatr that range mobs can't be blocked even though it's pure physical
fathom marten
^
merry cave
It's such a big disadvantage
merry cave
Even if your in there face they just shoot anyway and still ignore block it's infuriating
merry cave
Just such a big part of our mitigation gone for no reason on those mobs where other tanks don't have same issue.
fathom marten
That's it. If they gave us a pull, Id be happy af
tiny sphinx
physical projectiles should be blockable, and they used to be so the engine can totally handle it
static pilot
I can't see the grip happening
fathom marten
Give us grappling hook lol
fathom marten
Why the hell not. Throw a chain with a hook at the end.
Doesn't even have to be a mass pull
Cost rage
We would instantly be more competitive with that
Take away my extra intercept
idk
tiny sphinx
or giving charge its stun effect back
undone sun
bring back warbringer, delete Shockwave
tiny sphinx
blizzard would find some way to fuck it up, like removing the no dead zone thing
long pelican
Hey guys, I have 3 rings that I'm undecided on. Lowest haste and big vers/ilvl? Highest haste and crit? Medium haste with avoidance+ mastery?
[340 - 110 crit/241 haste]
[340 - 171 haste/181 mastery/60 avoidance]
[345 - 129 haste/232 versatility]
I'm trying to pick one of the above
long pelican
The other ring I have is 370 with 220 haste/ 186 mastery
junior igloo
avoidance will win if there is aoe damage present
long pelican
I doubt it matters a lot but the 345 brings my ilvl up by 1 over the others
junior igloo
You can use it for now if you want to flex ilvl π , it's just 340, you will replace either one with a raid/m+/pvp item soon
long pelican
I dig
It seems most of the content I do are mythics and m+, which I know is less than ideal, but Prot Warriors do well in raids, yeah?
raids sorta make me nervous if I'm pugging without friends but the first few I did in uldir seemed to be going pretty smoothly
vale gorge
according to the death statistics, prot warriors do the worst in Uldir right now out of all tanks
personally I think we're fine though
long pelican
LOL
wheat flower
Eyy,never did this so dunno how it works
i wanted to ask i got lvl 10 shoulders for mythic+ Pauldrons of the horned horror ((gives revenage trait)385 IL and i had 340 Skyscorcher Pauldrons(they give Shiled slam trait) so should i stick with my best trait or go for il upgrade
long pelican
That comedic timing
vale gorge
go for ilvl upgrade
wheat flower
oki tyvm
vale gorge
the traits are not really worth sacrificing ilvl for, except deafening crash
fathom marten
@vale gorge literally just went over the death statistic is a clear misrepresentation of us. Lol
vale gorge
what do you mean?
tiny sphinx
it is and it isn't
long pelican
Where are you seeing the info?
fathom marten
@vale gorgeSo let's say there is 20 prot wars doing h uld and there 100 bdks doing h uld. There is going to statistical advantage for the bdk because they'll be more skilled players. Now you can say but they'll have bad players as well, which fair enough but if we are talking top 25% it's likely that the skill is there more then not. So there's more "skilled" tank representation of that class.
pastel halo
does deafening crash stack? if you have mor than one?
twin hazel
the damage yes
fathom marten
@long pelican wow logs
vale gorge
that edited point doesn't make sense
I agree that the skill cap for prot warriors is probably somewhat higher which is why the death statistics are the way they are
long pelican
I believe they're making the argument that the smaller sample size has chance to positively or negatively swing the death percentages since typically the more people you have in a group their average skill tends to be higher
vale gorge
but the top 25% of 100 players are not more skilled than the top 25% of 20 players
fathom marten
@vale gorge also be aware that I'm not arguing prot is the best or better then a certain class, or that if the correct variables were still applied, warrior would not be at the bottom. What I'm arguing is that it wouldn't be as extreme nor does this mean we are "bad"
vale gorge
I think some of the variance can be explained by the higher skill requirements to get the most out of warrior tanking
but not all of it
and also fotm picks etc
of course I'm not saying we're not viable btw, because we definitely are
and I love playing my prot war much more than my prot pala atm
prisma night
Pally is the only other tank spec i find fun along side warrior
fathom marten
Top 25% of players not class specifics. So if only 4 prot wars are in the 25% and 3 died a shit ton of course itll sound bad for us. Compared to the 3 out of 10 of the bdk. The thing is it's more likely at the top 25% that the deaths between classes are pretty small, but class population can distort that percentage when it's not considered in. Which is why it shoupd be something like death % per x(pop value) class
vale gorge
but we're not talking about a population of 4 prot warriors here
there are 4439 prot warrior deaths counted in the top 25% of players
that's a large enough sample size
fathom marten
But we are talking about a important variable to consider, which isn't and the ratio between prot war and bdk is probablu something close to 4:10
modern forum
Are protection warrior realy bad or am I just suck ?
fathom marten
You just suck @modern forum
vale gorge
but that's not going to skew the data as much as you think it is
prisma night
Woah
fathom marten
Actually it would
modern forum
Δ°t make sense rn
fathom marten
Statical variables between static integer and % are very important
prisma night
Prot warr has a higher skill floor so people tend to struggle a bit at first kumasan
Its not in the best place but people do have good success with prot warr when played well
fathom marten
@vale gorge again man I'm not saying the end result wouldn t be the same. I'm saying it wouldn't look this drastic and that this is by no means an indication of prot warriors being bad.
fathom marten
^
ember arrow
we're not massively stringer if we play really well
we are on par
in legion
if u did well, u would be 20th dmg taken
as i was in my m raids
vale gorge
well
I'm saying it would still look about as drastic if the amount of prot warr players was the same as the amount of blood DK players
but I do agree with the conclusion that prot warriors aren't bad
fathom marten
@vale gorge well I guess we can agree to disagree and agree about the last part lol
vale gorge
yeah, agreed π
prisma night
Theres nearly 19k parses in all bosses top 25% of players for heroic thats a good sample size
The ratio under those perimeters of prot warr to dk is about 1:3
ember arrow
dk isnt a particularly amazing raid tank
prisma night
19k to 60k respectively
vale gorge
because the data shows them dying the least out of all tanks
prisma night
It doesnt matter to me. More my point is our sample size is good enough to draw something from it
ember arrow
they got purgatory
lets start
also they can immune things with their 100k magic shield
vale gorge
we are taking blood DKs just as an example, you can switch them out for BM monks if you like
ember arrow
o, ok, didnt realize that
prisma night
Yeah its just a random example really
ember arrow
i play dk atm in raids, so i was wondering
π
could i have those stats?
i probably missed it
junior igloo
shell night
tbh hardest thing about prot war atm is being so dependent on healers. you can play as good as you like, but if your healer is crap then there is nothing you can do to compensate that
other class can
hearty portal
hearty portal
That shit is sad
ember arrow
no tank can self sustain
shell night
meh
ember arrow
that dream is gone
hearty portal
Prot strong
ember arrow
not meh
vale gorge
@hearty portal that could just be because the affixes are really bad for prot warriors
hearty portal
10 should be doable
vale gorge
I just did a few m+ since the reset and it's much much easier now
prisma night
We arent garbage, calm down
ember arrow
i mean, i did few +10s on dk, and with necrotic on KR it was not fun
hot locust
sounds like a lot of warriors not blocking
mashing SB on cooldown gets you killed this expac
people havent learned that yet.
ember arrow
i wonder why dk die less than monk though
shell night
you have a much nicer cushion to carry a shit healer π (apologies for delayed response... at work π )
tight tree
Purgatory
prisma night
Youre one person
hot locust
Higher base HP and much higher Armor are a start
ember arrow
dh has more base hp
tight tree
Well percentage difference is not that big, purgatory is obvious version why
hot locust
and significantly less armor
hearty portal
I mean even if you play warrior perfectly, It doesnt make it any better in high mythis IP is so so so bad
Mythics*
ember arrow
yes bigdaddy
vale gorge
you're exaggerating
vale gorge
it's really not that bad
hearty portal
There arent enough rage to keep it up
vale gorge
we're fine in m+
hearty portal
You guys havent tanked 10 if you really feel like everything is okay
vale gorge
I have
silver breach
For Rings, does ilvl for Stam ever make it better than my better stats? For example 340 haste(heavy)/vers to 355 Crit(heavy)/Haste
tight tree
There will be tank tuning i beleive. THey will show what direction they want to go.
ember arrow
@silver breach its not just stamina
its MORE secondary stats
and yes 355 is an upgrade
from 340
silver breach
Kk i just lose 120 vers and nearly 100 haste to gain crit and stam. so wasnt sure
fierce halo
It's so little what higher ilvl gives on rings in secondary stats, a gem slot gives more than 20 ilvl or so
ember arrow
π€
vale gorge
you're going to lose out on a lot of stamina if you value a gem slot at 20 ilvl
shell night
tbh i main my warrior cause warrior for life... but i admit I find content alot easier on my bdk. and thats only 340 ilvl
ember arrow
secondaries
undone sun
a gem slot is definitely not worth 20 ilevels
ember arrow
^
vale gorge
@ember arrow well secondaries are what you gain from gem slots, right
fierce halo
Nothing saying valuing it at 20ilvl but a 340 with socket has more secondary stats than a 360
vale gorge
yeah?
amber siren
yeah 20 didn't read right to me
fierce halo
Nah, since 360 has more stam as well
shell night
if you value main stat more then its not 'worth' 20 ilvls unless its a ring i guess
copper tendon
how are the defensive trinkets after the buff ?
undone sun
pins
fierce halo
@levko if you don't believe me, then just compare them yourself.
Lord waycrest signet ring (326stats on 325 and 352 on 340), so with a socket 325 has 14 stats more. And yes I know stats on rings scale exponentially, so on higher ilvl sockets lose value.
upbeat anchor
fierce halo
From warfront quest, I guess? Still very sweet procc
merry cave
I both love and hate those items early. It's great because it's amazing. But It takes the fun out of getting drops lol
amber siren
who has fun
old zephyr
I do,
I ask cotank to take add duties and boring stuff =)
fathom marten
Parse loggs attributed to that graph
19k prot war vs 60k bdk
My arguement is death diffrence would be much lower, given variables I've mentioned before
My conclusion is yes, we would still lead in death% but as whats been said before tank viability diffrence between tanks are small as would our death % diffrence between tanks
ionic fern
Holy shit, this is still an ongoing topic ? π
amber siren
π
old zephyr
In my guild I have about 80% active tanking, Because if we let the dk tank HΓ© dies from mΓͺlΓ©es. Su statistically I die more, does that mean he is better, no, the oposite
old zephyr
Numbers mean nothing and you can make them tell anything...
fathom marten
More or less
They are not infallible conclusion which is what I'm trying to point out among the blatant bad graphical analysis
vale gorge
Anecdotes like that disappear when you have a large sample size like this one though
junior lichen
is 2% haste worth 15 ilvl?
old zephyr
Nope
vale gorge
There is no reason to believe that more warriors have a higher active time than DKs or vice versa
fathom marten
@vale gorge What? I'm not arguing acedote I'm arguing the way the graph is represented, used , and determined wouldn't hold up in a high school analysis class
vale gorge
@fathom marten I'm actually curious, let's say you bring up the number of warrior parses from 19k to 60k by adding a bunch more warriors to the sample
Is there any reason to think that those 41k extra warriors would differ in death% from the original 19k?
merry cave
It depends how skill is distributed
It's a safe assumption that a large % of high skill players are not in war
vale gorge
Why is that a safe assumption though
merry cave
Because most high end guild tanks are not on warriors, go watch mythic streams for the abundance of monks
And dks
fathom marten
Of course it would differ. We just don't know how much. Its absolutely not correct to compare 19,000 wars to 60,000 bdk.
old zephyr
Because high skill players are high ly skilled due to running high level content.
And, People doing high level content run for wolrd First and and therefore Anr to have as little mistakes as possible therefore picking "easy classes"
vale gorge
But adding more warrior parses won't close that gap
fathom marten
@vale gorge but the former doesn't prove warriors are bad or die nearly as much as the graph shows
tight tree
Anecdotal, i die in HC Uldir roughly twice as much as our Blood DK. π€£
Put that in statistic pls
vale gorge
I agree that most high end guilds don't tend to use prot warriors, but that doesn't answer it at all
Thats irrellevant
fathom marten
@vale gorge also I'm sure if we switched out top 25% skilled progresson players 39k bdks to wars, we would see the war death % lowered
What ???
It is relevant
The % I based on top 25% of playerw
That's absolutely relevant
worn stratus
If anything the fact that the visible guilds aren't using prot warrior means all the plebs follow what they do, if anything the bad players aren't playing warrior right now
vale gorge
It's not relevant to your claim that the difference in number of parses matters
Adding 41k more warrior parses from the top 25% of warriors doesn't do anything
tight tree
I am bad enough to not care about what top tanks playing
vale gorge
LOL
I realize my mistake
I was thinking it took the top 25% of every class individually
But it takes the top 25% regardless of class
You were right @fathom marten , sorry for being slow
fathom marten
@vale gorge np man I don't mind explaining these things because graphical and statical anylas is not common knowledge
vale gorge
I should know better though
fathom marten
But you see what happens? People just skim the surface and it's not the whole story.
Again, the graph will probably be the same more or less but with the diffrence being narrowed down.
vale gorge
Yeah, kinda like if you select all players instead of the top 25%
ionic ridge
It's like gender wage gap for tanks
fathom marten
Unfortunately wowlogs seems to not address these things
Which is highly irresponsible given there position
sick sentinel
Tanks are fun to play.
fathom marten
I'm going to need a graph to represent this please
past ledge
Hey guys, IL over trait and stats right?
undone sun
the only trait worth dropping ilevel for is Deafening crash
past ledge
but not over 30 IL ofc
right?
i got 370 from chest, but with Reinforced plating
i got 340 with Deafening crash
amber siren
guide in IV says 25? I think
uncut fractal
Lifespeed or Earthlink?
fresh dragon
No tanks were adjust either up or down, which I was happy with because I feel most of the tank specs are well balanced in M+. The exception to that is Protection Warrior, and I was a bit hopeful that the spec would get some kind of tuning. Maybe warriors have to wait until 8.1 like priests and shamans.
only here ppl say we are "fine"
junior igloo
@fathom marten @merry cave @old zephyr @vale gorge
-
I don't think it takes top 25 % regardless of class, that doesn't make much sense, though I'm not sure how top 25 % is chosen on wipes. Either way this issue is easily fixed by selecting all logs instead of top 25 %.
-
"World first" players did the heroic bosses on multiple classes, so there is no bias there.
-
I don't see any reason why adding more warriors into the mix for example should improve their survival rate. It is possible that the numbers would be even worse.
There are some small considerations for either direction (rerollers are not as good on their new class as experienced players, on the other hand players willing to reroll might be better skilled on average etc.), but I wouldn't expect a large shift in either direction.
prisma night
I think the main point is that the death % graph is misleading in terms of what it is trying to represent on a basic level. Lurking variables exist and therefore the conclusions that we can draw from the graph has to adapt as such
junior igloo
What variables?
prisma night
Good players going to more meta classes. How do you account for survival rate if you cant even tell what sub set of the playerbase is playing what class. Roles in each fight, perhaps the warrior is taking on different roles that are more likely to end in death. Idk.. all i know is its not as simple as just looking at the graph.
fresh dragon
which graph?
hearty portal
Well we know the real reason why warriors arent played. The playstyle is clunky compared to the other tanks
fresh dragon
@hearty portal u cannot say that here.. here we all think warrior is "fine" whatever it means..
west pelican
I guess the argument is that "good players" swapped to other tanks and mostly the "bad players that die a lot" was thickheaded and stayed with warrior. Β―_(γ)_/Β―
fresh dragon
if Jdotb says we are not "fine" its his fault.. not us
tight tree
just prone to random deaths due to CD mismanagement. That is exactly what everyone saying.
west pelican
I have a question tho - How is the current week m+ affixes for warriors you think guys?
fresh dragon
war prot is "FINE" @west pelican this week
prisma night
Mythic pushing guilds will swap from warrior tanks on average
Omg this fine shit
Super annoying
west pelican
@fresh dragon lol, I see what you did there
tight tree
i asked my healers, for m+. They said warrior and paladins are hardest to heal, DK/DHs are the easiest. That is casual guild, +5-+8 mostly
west pelican
Don't even know which affixes it is yet π So what can we expect this week from a warrior POV?
@tight tree My priest buddy prefers my 320 pally to my 353 warr π Pally is so boring tho
hearty portal
I dont think there is any affixes where we would actually be better then the other tanks atleast. So expect the same statistics
prisma night
We are less punished this week than last
hearty portal
Yeah
west pelican
@prisma night good to hear, which affixes is it?
prisma night
Tyr, bursting skittish infested
prisma night
Kings of aoe dps tho
west pelican
Don't see skittish as a prob for warr
junior igloo
Those are good points, Hisoka, but I don't think they have a big effect on the result.
The graph basically shows "how often do you die early (before a wipe is called)".
When you compare specs with similar available defensives, you get this:
When you compare different classes with different defensives, there is a few percent gap.
tight tree
@west pelican Never played paladin. My undergeard monk feeling way better in m+, and a think of leveling DK if we can have push team. No reason to handicap others, unless you want to prove a point, and i do not want to prove anything. I want to have fun with friends so i will pick a tank that is fun to play and makes it easier for everyone.
vocal nimbus
"Warriors suck debate round #infinite"
valid pumice
My guild healer says I'm pretty easy to heal up until I miss one of my mitigations then he goes full blown panic mode, he struggles to track when dk can heal himself and when he cant though
tight tree
YES
prisma night
Oh yeah there is more warriors dying. All i was saying its not quite as black and white as it initially seems on the graph. Some of the discrepancy is due to some variables (how much they account for i have no clue)
tight tree
They literally telling me: you taking no damage, no damage, no damage, then HOLYFUCK CRAPTON OF DAMAGE PANIC MODE
west pelican
I'm just glad we don't have aids on the ground fucking all over this week. π Gonna be fun!
prisma night
Ikr
west pelican
@tight tree yeah, some cooldowns would be great to have then, right
tight tree
Or jump away yes
west pelican
I just got a COOL IDEA
Brace yourselves. What if we were IMMUNE during leap + 1 second after? Could be a azerite trait?
Or that it at least CLEARS debuffs?
tight tree
JK tossed back by freehold trash, die in 3 seconds
fresh dragon
@vocal nimbus nono... we aree #fine
ionic ridge
Guys, what trinkets would you recommend me to use ?
Jes howler 345 + gemslot
Zandalar Emblem 340
Blocades 355
Gladiator Insignia 350 (vers + Strengh proc)
tight tree
Jes+blockades
west pelican
@fresh dragon hashtag fine, lol #fine
unkempt fox
360 vial vs blockades vs 350 jes need trinkets 101
fresh dragon
i will ask for discord channel to be rename into "protection.. we are fine"
tight tree
Well i want something for M+, something that we better than other tanks are. In raids i am good, m+ i just feel i can do way more fun stuff on DK/MONK/DH
fathom marten
Which is my main and original point. The graph misrepresents because it's not showing data determinations and explanations. Also, selecting all logs is fine but again number variable diffrence is still a factor to consider. It's not correct to equate 50k prot war logs to 150 x other class logs. To be more accurate the number needs to be equal. That's why totals are usually not represented in factoring UNLESS it is suppose to show miniority representation diffrences.
2.
Proves my point again because the arguement beung pushed is wars are not viable and are bad. Also, this point brings yet another varuable, if its true world first players take other classes through, ir actually shows that there's an even lower class representation if we factor in players, alting prot wars through. The high end low end variables are probablu very extreme then. Though if this variable is something to consider. It can back fire on me real bad if we say that even high skilled players are dying twice the amount of times there bdk main is. Though, I'm suspicious that is the case and would believe this to be negliable.
3. I'm not saying it would improve there survival rate. I'm saying the graph is a terrible place to base your conclusion off of and I'm very certain the diffrence between the tanks of survival rate would be closer, AT the top 25% at the very least. As I've stated multiple times, I'm not arguing prot wouldn t be the top death percentage wise. It's simply a poor graphical analysis because it leaves put ratio equivalency between classes among other things. @junior igloo
west pelican
TEXT
fresh dragon
@tight tree u have something on M+!! u have more PRAY than other tanks
ionic ridge
@tight tree thnx, when do you think is the best moment to use Jes Howler ?
tight tree
@ionic ridge use it as defensive cooldown during big hit or period of heavy damage taken, best used when many other players around ofc
fresh dragon
warrior specialization #arms #fury #protectionisfine
ionic ridge
Okay so basicly, it's like having another spell reflect damage reduction
Any idea about our haste cap btw ?
amber siren
no haste or any stat cap
fresh dragon
HASTE
ionic ridge
I'm at 35% with 5 stacks of into the fray
amber siren
sounds about average
fresh dragon
42% :v
fathom marten
More times then not you'll want the haste gear
ionic ridge
22% mastery and 5% versa
junior igloo
@fathom marten
I just still can't see why the total number of logs for each spec should invalidate the results.
Isn't that a completely standard thing to do?
When I look at percentage of incarcerated people in different countries, I can find that in Finland it's 0.057 %, while in France it's 0.102 %.
I have never heard anyone arguing that those stats are misleading because the population of France is more than 10 times higher
tight tree
@fresh dragon Everyone repeating that warriors are fine only because everyone keep asking how warriors are π and they are fine.
Fury is fine too. Arms is fine
But i really enjoy shitshow in this discord π
fresh dragon
ofc if Jdotb says we are not its his fault.... ill ask blizzard to dont invite him on invitational coz hes wrong
undone sun
π€
amber siren
just have fun π
tight tree
I rend to trust jd about m+ tbh. i also not good enough to play on his level so i will just play my warrior because i like my warrior.
amber siren
I mean he isn't wrong, but unless you're competing on his level of world firsts and tournaments
Then a big grain of salt
tight tree
I will only reroll if i want another fun tank, or if guild need another class for raid prog.
fresh dragon
@amber siren so much excuses we find π
amber siren
I don't think it's an excuse, it's a similar situation we saw in legion
Like warrios could do 24
But DKs/DH were doing 27
But I mean, the majority did their 15's and maybe pushed to 20
fresh dragon
are u really comparing BFA with LEGION coz
raven kernel
arent MDI material anyway
fresh dragon
in the LAST expansion we were "close"
prisma night
I think people say we're fine because they want people to take some degree of personal responsibility. Some people come in here and say we're shit but odds are there a quite a few people not playing optimally. The "fine" is a mix of we're not the best but some of us are not playing it well enough.
fresh dragon
so u think in BFA we are still so close?
amber siren
Sense was streaming his 10/11 keys like yesterday, afaik he was doing OK
Not world first 15 material
But I bet you weren't either
fresh dragon
Sense vs rest of the world: Sense's group is PREMADE and studied... rest of the world: adapt themself to healers/dps they find in guild/pug
amber siren
Isn't that what we're talking about though?
junior igloo
Yeah, the best players can do 24 on a warrior or 27 on DK.
So some say that for doing 20 either class is perfectly fine and ~equal (because both can go to 20 or even above).
But that's simply not true. If you are only good enough to do 20 on a warrior, then you could 23 on a DK. The skill doesn't start to play a factor only above the maximum possible warrior level
fresh dragon
this theory is based onnn??? the best key done up to now is a 15 intime and u are theoryzing about 27-24 like air...
raven kernel
The people complaining that they struggle on warrior right now, arent good enough to magically jump 3 key levels if they switched classes
junior igloo
I'm talking about last expansion which someone mentioned
fresh dragon
oh ok
lemme check.... ok yes now my client is 8.0.1 so usuless to speak about something that is no more...
prisma night
Its an example?
amber siren
It was a comparison π
fresh dragon
ah okok sorry
fathom marten
@junior igloo This is a false equivalency. You're using two well defined variables. People incarcerated vs people not. In each country.Β Diffrence between the two is twice the amount more or less.
But wouldn't It make a difference if the laws that incarcerate people are diffrent ?
Of course it would. Also, what's being pushed is like saying since France has higher incarceration % that means there are more drug dealing murderers. Regaurdless if this is true or not, the data doesnt show the specifics and it's a huge error to come up with that conclusion.
fresh dragon
that an example lol..
fresh dragon
ye i was just thinking about that drugs/incarceration things π
so if my warrior prot peddle drugs i can be incarcerated to france?
green isle
Hm
unique salmon
Hey guys, sorry to ask this here but IV and Wowhead aren't really clear, I have 340 Haste/Mastery bracers equipped but just found some 350 Vers/Mastery. Would the 10 extra ilvls worth of STR and stamina make it an upgrade for prot? or is the haste too valuable to lose?
green isle
Ilvl
fresh dragon
@unique salmon yes
junior igloo
But I strongly disagree with the notion that better class only helps if you are raiding in Method or competing in MDI.
When you have a new car with good safety functions and compare it to and old car with no airbags or ABS, the new car will be safer for you to travel in.
You don't have to be world class professional driver to benefit.
The argument that "you can still do the content on the weaker class" is equivalent to "I drove the old car to the groceries yesterday and didn't die" . Yeah, you can do it, but you could have done it easier, faster, safer.
If anything a weaker player will make more mistakes on a punishing class so arguably they would benefit from playing a monk (as an example) even more than a world class player
fresh dragon
ilvl > all (except ring/trinket)
unique salmon
Thank you! it was simming lower on arms than my 340 crit/haste so I wasnt sure because cant really sim tanks to see whats better :<
valid pumice
I can't even follow this argument anymore
prisma night
Yeah im not good enough at statistics to counter anything anymore
junior igloo
@fathom marten
Yeah, that's true, I understand how the meaning of the numbers can be misinterpreted.
I only ask about your comment regarding the absolute number of parses skewing the data. Because that part seems standard to me.
prisma night
Okay middle ground i like it
amber siren
fight to the death π‘
fresh dragon
well.... im not so a great "believer" of number graph
prisma night
Idk if im right but wouldnt the people putting up those parses i.e what subset of the playerbase, skill wise, matter more than the actual number?
fresh dragon
as @junior igloo says we can do all anyway.... we just need to bleed blood from eyes.... but....hey!! #wearefine
prisma night
Provided a decent sample size of course
fathom marten
@junior igloo No one is arguing that you wont do better as a diffrent tank. You very well could, but it would be more due to player skill the class viability. The viability arguement is what top players should be worried about due to skill being top notch.
Again you're coming up with false equivalents, though you proved what all of us have been saying. Prot war is fine viability wise but its a hard class play and is more reliant on user play.
shell night
add more warriors in and our death % would probably become worse, not better xD
fathom marten
Top 25% probably not imo. I'd have to do the numbers at top 50 and 75 to come up with a conclusion
I'm about to get my stat professor in on this to help me determine something more proper
prisma night
So what youre saying is parse numbers for comparison does skew it. but the question is, by how much
It levels the playing field of that statistic by how much, idk if thats knowable
fathom marten
Yes exactly
junior igloo
My first question is: in which direction?
prisma night
Makes it more volatile so couldnt it be either direction?
Idk
Mt thought is that each parse affects the death % more than a dk parse would. So if there were a string of warriors not dying it could change it quicker
But idk if thats the point
fathom marten
It will edge one way or the other but will have multiple + &-
brave torrent
Hello our warrior tank is dying to corrupted blood on zul. They have a 300 ilvl shield as they have been very unlucky with drops. Would a better shield significantly help their survivability?
prisma night
Only while still tanking him
Once hes off on his own to drop off the pool the shield wont do too much
brave torrent
They die as the blood drops usually
prisma night
Stam on higher shield thats about it
If its only bleed then a higher shield wont do too much
You might need different strat for him or get an intervene target ready so he can get out quick
sour osprey
@brave torrent the CD of the debuff is pretty long, are you sure he is not dying because off zul resulting on the blood drops
brave torrent
They die on the edges as the blood pools drop. So they are getting out
prisma night
Kk good to know
sour osprey
On zul the other tank need to keep the boss at the moment the CD is low to make it easier for the tank to place correctly the blood
prisma night
Yeah might just need externals and intervene to get out. Tell him to try to get rage before running off and spam ip as he runs out? Save cookie and hp pot for it?
Idk try everything xd
brave torrent
We will try that. Thank you
sour osprey
Normally it should be simple if the rotation is well made
prisma night
He might be out ranging healers?
sour osprey
Zul need to stay on the same spot for P2 it's easier to manage the blood drops
brave torrent
We keep him in the center. Our healers can still reach our warrior. We though it was honestly just the shield
prisma night
But the shield would help him be at a higher hp prior to running out though
sour osprey
Is he full life when the blood drop ?
brave torrent
No I don't believe so
prisma night
So higher hp going into the drop off pool part very well could put him over the edge to survive
In that sense shield does alot
sour osprey
Then make the other tank take the boss earlier to let the time for the heals to heal him, let him drop the blood on the edge then come back
brave torrent
We can try that
Thanks. We will spam mythics with them to try for a shield as well
prisma night
Defs get a shield tho it is the single best defensive boost we can get in one item
brave torrent
Thanks everyone
mortal carbon
a hotfix would be a better def boost kek
viral garden
I've got a question about Ignore Pain usage. Outside of a threat of being killed from a spike of damage or low health, is it supposed to be used much outside of shield block? I keep reviewing logs and notice the amount of Ignore Pain casts are a lot lower than I would expect. Like this +10 Atal that Sense did had 47 Ignore Pain casts over the entire encounter, and I'm guessing the rest of the rage went into Revenge
+13*
mild vigil
Just fount out: tank debuff on Vectis doesn't give omega vector on expiration anymore
prisma night
So if youre dying ip. Sense probably trusts his healer or is doing something else to make sure he isnt dying and therefore wouldnt be spending rage on ip. But i could be entirely wrong lol
Just a guess really
valid pumice
He cast devastate more in that dungeon than I think I ever have at 120
viral garden
Alright, I'll have to look more into that then and see what I can review about the healer in that instance
fathom marten
Wait
What is your question ?
He casted sb 112 times
Vs 47 IP
If he's maintaining good up time with SB and has excess rage, you dump into IP
mild vigil
I would definitely cast more IP is it was off the GCD
viral garden
My question was if Ignore Pain usage is better to use while Shield Block is up, and while shield block is down would it be better to dump rage into Revenge (outside of scenarios where you're about to take a spike of damage or be killed)
based on Sense's logs and amount of IP casts he had over the course of an entire +13 run
fathom marten
I mean, why not spend it on IP if it means more damage being negated.. What would be the point spending rage in revenge over IP in terms of survivability. IP sucks but its still something and essentially you use revenge for aoe damage/threat and rage dump. While IP is for smoothing out damage and rage dump. Or if there magic damage.
prisma night
If you favor ip only during sb duration youre gonna be even spikier in hp
And i dont think that its a good idea imo
merry cave
@viral garden last I looked sense had the revenge trait too which skews things a little
viral garden
His shoulders do, I hadn't considered that, so you're correct
signal plover
Imo whether or not SB is up or not should have no impact on your IP useage.
prisma night
^
worn stratus
Some of the comments in here are curious, a lot of you make playing prot warrior sound way more complicated than it actually is. Of course you want to use IP during SB, you want to use it quite often actually. Despite what you may hear from others its actually pretty good and has the added benefit of reducing all of your other cooldowns if you take AM. Are there times where you want to save some rage? Yeah sure but you should never be worried about spending your resources, be very free with your abilities and use them often
prisma night
If dying: ip. If not dying and no fear of dying: sure revenge
signal plover
If u have rage for an IP and are actively taking damage and won't clip a massive amount of it, you should use it.
signal plover
It's not 100% one way or another
fathom marten
But that doesn't mean it's the right thing to do survivability wise
It's your preference
prisma night
Dependant on level of content too
fathom marten
In theory it's better to spend on IP for the less experienced players
sour osprey
the eternal dillema Revenge or IP ?
Also you might prefer to stay alive with IP better than dying only to have a bit more of DPS
kind urchin
I use ignore pain strategically before larger hits to smooth them out. Or when I'm taking large amounts of damage. Never drain your rage all the way with revenge though. That would be a bad idea.
merry cave
There's also a lot of context missing here, a +2 vs +12 lfr vs Mythic, types of mobs etc that go into the choice
signal plover
You'll never cover all of the variations in a discussion and there are times where revenge is ok to use without a proc but in my experience those times have been pretty rare in high level stuff.
fresh dragon
trinket: howl 340 vs 370 rezan ?
prisma night
Rezan i think
old zephyr
Even at same level i'd6take rezan but that's just me
vital wren
Hello valarjar warriors! Which mythic+ was the easiest for you to tank? (Considering highest posible number and what number?) π
fresh dragon
m0
sour osprey
Freehold +5
vital wren
I'm asking the type of dungeon, not 0
sour osprey
(im not very high)
fresh dragon
motherload
valid pumice
I though atal was pretty easy
vital wren
Is King's Rest a shitshow?
valid pumice
I had op dps with me though, but thats the benefit of being tank you get more choice over dps
sour osprey
Worst one is storm sanctuary (i dont know if it is this name in english)
silk mortar
It wasnt doable for my team x(
vital wren
I was considering Tol Dagor +5 farm for the riot shield but I dunno
old zephyr
Atal dazar is easy if dps are not dumb
vital wren
Sometimes I just wish I could control everyone in the group and do what I need them to do.. Doesn't happen most of the time aaaaand it's a wipe haha
old zephyr
There is one sigle though pack, in doubt just BL through it
vital wren
The middle one with dinos? We skipped it on +2
silk mortar
Well you dont need to take those
valid pumice
the only pack that sometimes sketch for me is the one just before the totem boss
only cus dps are mongs sometimes
old zephyr
'o the5one in front of volk
left canopy
What are the go to talents for dungeons?
old zephyr
It does help, but mongo deeps are mongo deeps, so just list it
valid pumice
Dps nuke totems everytime without fail haha
next goblet
lol
valid pumice
I'll try it next time though
next goblet
i literally failed a key because someone fucked that fight up
old zephyr
Failed several there
silk mortar
@left canopy Mostly il go 1 2 2 3 2 1 1
valid pumice
Last boss is worse for me, I either have melee dps just stand next to her when she casts soulrend or they will ignore the summoned adds and just run back to her to continue with dps
left canopy
Um...what is that? 1 2 2 3 2 1 1?
next goblet
talents
left canopy
I never understood it
fleet ridge
talents
ionic swallow
its number of talents from talent tree
next goblet
^^
old zephyr
Take first on first row, then 2nd, then 2nd, ...
next goblet
yoooo sense is representing us y'all lol
steel mauve
Each row has 3 talents numbered 1-3
left canopy
Thank you so much!!
valid pumice
Whats sense done?
next goblet
gold medal in tank all star in m+ lol
valid pumice
great now we'll never get buffed /s
old zephyr
because we good man
old zephyr
clickbait for protwar π
next goblet
i think its broken
lol
@valid pumice we're actually not that bad if you have the right healer
valid pumice
The /s is for sarcasm :p
next goblet
what i've noticed is a lot of people are starving themselves on rage rather than having some in the bank
uneven mason
I've noticed a lot of bad Prot warriors ><
next goblet
^^
silk mortar
Becuase we are the only ones who get noticed if we are bad π
next goblet
true
wait
since theres so little of us
i can shoot thru the ranks of warrior tanks on raider io lol
for my server
uneven mason
I mean
next goblet
as long as i play well and run good keys
old zephyr
I'm second LEL
uneven mason
We're rather difficult to play optimally in all situations
next goblet
theres not even 400 warriors on my server
uneven mason
I should check mine, I've only done like 3 dungeons
old zephyr
my server is not verry populated and there is very few warriors π
next goblet
only a total of 2500 tanks on my server π€·πΏ
mossy narwhal
Im in the top 100 druid tanks and ive run 3 sungeons xD
I just got my warr to 120 so see what its like
Im guessing DH would be a different story
next goblet
im gonna rank in some of the top ranks on my server and rock devastator doing it
just to piss everyone off
old zephyr
don't forget ravager @next goblet
uneven mason
also noticed only 1500warriors killed G'huun as prot on normal
next goblet
i mean i could totally go vengeance @old zephyr
uneven mason
π€’
uneven mason
TFW someone wants to support the community perception that prot is bad by using dumpster fire tier talents.
next goblet
ew
uneven mason
and tank backwards
undone sun
yikes
next goblet
that ones only good for learning the ins and outs of prot
im talkin fresh prot warrior running normal dungeons learning how the class works
i could then THINK about justifying never surrender
but bolster..
so good
@uneven mason just watch, im gonna make this happen with dev lol
astral crystal
you're not going to have an unplayable class with devastator, that's obviously not the case
you'll just be missing out on the BV benefits, which are substantial
you're not really proving anything by speccing devastator
other than you want to gimp yourself because epeen i guess
brisk bramble
Is Vers better then mastery?
astral crystal
also re earlier discussion: there's seriously very few people playing prot warr right now, it's nuts
brisk bramble
just overall on icy veins it shows vers better then mastery
on wowhead its mastery
next goblet
@dusk basin alright then ill ravager build it and i know how hard im gimping myself.. i just want to do it to do it
undone sun
it's usually master>=verse because it's situational
next goblet
BTW last night.. i saw it.. i saw the impending victory specced tank
in a raid
i about lost my shit
next goblet
i wonder how underrot is
next goblet
oof
fickle geyser
boss abilites do like 40-60k nature per slice
next goblet
β€
uneven mason
@brisk bramble Vers and Mastery are very close to doing the same thing, they reduce the damage you take by the same amount (thus the >= operand )
Mastery reduces damage by a greater amount PER INSTANCE of it functioning (the AP coefficient to IP is how mastery reduces magic damage) while vers has a lesser impact in each instance, but is 100% passive
so across an average, they have the same impact
Vers is just more reliable
and is better in larger chunks (like howler)
next goblet
oh.. does incoming damage go block>armor>ip>face? i couldn't remember if that was the order or not
earnest zinc
Vers also works against all damage while mastery only works against blockable damage
manic sentinel
Hey guys just found this discord, had a question that I've received multiple answers on. I recently got a 370 chest to replace a 345, but I lose deafening crash if I equip it. Do I use the 370 or keep the 345 for demo shout buff?
earnest zinc
So vers > mastery
rain dune
I think DC is worth 25 item levels with proper Avatar usage, no?
earnest zinc
At least until later tiers where haste allows 100% shield block uptime
next goblet
i believe mastery is SLIGHTLY better than vers because of the AP gains improving your ignore pain, but they're damn near equal
uneven mason
DR * DR * DR * DR % - IP <=50% = Damage
rain dune
That said I replaced my DC piece with a 30 it 35 ilvl upgrade and I noticed the loss
uneven mason
Fuzzy - Mastery is better if all damage is always blockable
earnest zinc
Ignore Pain doesn't do much in high end content except acting as a mini Last Stand.
rain dune
Finally got shoulders with DC last night and it feels much more smooth again
earnest zinc
DC > ilvl
undone sun
well, to an extent
undone sun
there gets to be a point where ilevel does beat out the trait
uneven mason
you're probably looking at a replacement
undone sun
and that's roughly 25
earnest zinc
I'd say 50 ilvls
uneven mason
no Garun lol
manic sentinel
Lol
uneven mason
and that is IF you are using DS optimally within Avatar
IE - keeping it up for 40 seconds
chilly brook
Iβm still in awe that I hit over 70% uptime on DS
earnest zinc
You are trash tier without it
fleet ridge
@chilly brook yeah but you are a haxor
uneven mason
0_o
manic sentinel
Thanks guys
uneven mason
I Mean, DC is strong Garun
chilly brook
Oh you didnβt see it @uneven mason ?
uneven mason
but I wouldn't say we're trash tier
kind urchin
I ran one dc and two bs traits in last nights raid... Ip still so small and gone in one auto attack. Had to start pooling rage and only hit it before tank busters for it to stay up for it.
uneven mason
at all without it
earnest zinc
Get AM talented and a DC trait or you are a paper tank
uneven mason
π€ maybe its you
chilly brook
I wouldnβt say youβre a paper tank without DC
uneven mason
I Mean, TBH outside of a few fights in Uldir right now
we literally don't hold the boss long enough to make maximum use of DC
tank swaps are fast
very frequent
uneven mason
I would say Myth, Fetid and Taloc are the 3 fights that it really comes into play
kind urchin
Then again I mitigate far more damage than my pally co tank... He scares the healers.
earnest zinc
You really want it for Fetid Devourer Heroic (esp if you are thrash tanking)
uneven mason
when I yell at them for making me use a warlock cookie rather than letting a DPS die
chilly brook
I actually had a shaman healer that loved me last night in m+
earnest zinc
Ignore Pain needs to be off the GCD
chilly brook
And the ret told me warriors were his favorite tanks when he was holy
uneven mason
π π΄ π
chilly brook
It doesnβt need to be
uneven mason
It wouldn't gain you a whole lot
chilly brook
It would be nice
fleet ridge
I would make the spec so much better if it was off the GCD
uneven mason
and would probably be quite the newbie trap
chilly brook
But wouldnβt be any more functional
cinder nova
I wouldn't say that, Matt.
earnest zinc
It would be on the pulls
chilly brook
Weβre not in legion where it stacks
cinder nova
It does, actually.
uneven mason
If you're reaching a point where a single GCD is the diffference between you living, and you dying
next goblet
the way i look at it is like this.. pallies LotP is on GCD.. but their SotR isn't.. our SB is NOT on gcd and our IP is
uneven mason
you fucked up long before that time frame came about
next goblet
our IP is like a pallies LotP.. except its not really a heal
chilly brook
1.3x cap isnβt exactly what Iβd call stacking
cinder nova
It still stacks.
chilly brook
Iβd call that wasted rage
uneven mason
So, here is the thing
cinder nova
Rage dump = faster CDs.
chilly brook
Rage dump suboptimally=death
next goblet
^
cinder nova
As opposed to what else, if you could entreat?
kind urchin
Warriors work completely different from other tanks. I don't see why they would make a blanket change and not on an individual basis.
chilly brook
You can hang onto rage as long as youβre not going to overcap
fathom marten
And what would you rage dump on if not IP or revenge ?
cinder nova
I'd rather than LS/Wall thanks.
chilly brook
You still get the same result
uneven mason
If you're in a situation where you have that much rage - you have other things to spend rage on. If you're in a situation where it is important enough to stack IP higher, you probably will not have any thing to stack (it will disappear before you can get another stack up) if you are not taking damage enough for it to be crucial to have IP up at maximum all the time, you're an idiot for burning the rage in that way anywa.
fathom marten
Not overall
cinder nova
Yeah, but IP stacking is going to be more useful against most of the unblockable mechanics in Uldir.
I only really hit block for melee swings and the errant blockable tank mechanic
chilly brook
No it wonβt
uneven mason
0_o
kind urchin
It only stacks to 1.3x
next goblet
π€¦πΏ
cinder nova
So hitting block for a rage dump against magic damage will keep me alive more than block?
What's the mental gymnastics behind that.
chilly brook
π€
uneven mason
At what point are you tanking and not taking melee swings?
kind urchin
You get no benefit even hitting it two times in a row. It's wasted rage.
fathom marten
Lol^^
cinder nova
AM.