or glide
#protection
vagrant arrow
usually happening in drustvar
ember arrow
i cant give you any "life hacks" but jsut sum up the thing i tend to do ๐
vagrant arrow
xD
hollow blaze
is Devastator really that bad of a talent? I really liked my rotation with it, but I read on icyveins that it's god awful in comparison to Booming Voice
woeful magnet
booming voice is op
sick sentinel
with devastator lots of empty gcd on ST it should be better for multiple targets yet bv is still way better for it
errant ledge
Everything i have been thinking about is in this thread, minus the math i have been doing. Most veteran tanks take each of these things into consideration. People don't realistically think about these racials long term and just look at what sounds good without doing the math. https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/7vz008/the_datamined_dark_iron_racials_arent_very_good/
Just doing the math for haste alone i would be losing out on almost 3% haste which is almost 1 sec off my mitigation, .5 sec on all my dmg abilitys=more rage=more mitigation
Thats just for haste alone
That by itself out does the dark iron passive
Then you add mastery for increased shield block/crit block
And crit for parry ect
Then to top it off like mentioned above in the link
The racial is basicly useless
There is almost never a circumstance that you will have more then 1 dot/bleed/curse on you outside of pvp(edited)
So at first glance like i said it seems good, but once you really think about it, its shitty
The human racial however
At first glance seems bad
But for a tank
Being stund /feard is the 2 worst things you can have happen to you besides being disorentated
Its a time when you can do absolutely nothing but watch all your mitigation fall off leaving you utterly and completely vulnerable
Most dots/debuffs can either be interupted or spell reflected anyways
The regular dwarf racial is better then the new one
For tanks that is
I would like everyones opinion on this please
Brains only
The general consensus is that dark iron is the best tank race in the game
I however am not sold 100%
undone sun
it's not really news, the dispel by itself is what makes it that strong even if it is situational.
races in general are supposed to be marginal at best while having very niche strengths
errant ledge
But heres the thing tyme
Thyme* sorry
Think about how many times outside of pvp thats realistically going to come into play
You have 1 ability in underrot (which can be avoided) then maybe 1-2 mobs in kings rest and temple that apply a bleed?
sick sentinel
im going dark iron cause its cool as fuck never really cared about racials
errant ledge
Most of these things can be avoided by interupting/stunning
chrome falcon
hey friends, strength pots or burning blood
errant ledge
So how often are you really going to see that "massive" primary boost people are claiming
In pvp however, thats deadly
In my opinion
undone sun
afaik almost every dungeon has a poison, bleed, etc.
errant ledge
Thats not the point
90% of those can be avoided
So unless your group is shit
Your hardly ever going to have to deal with that
Lets say you do get the worst group
sick sentinel
it still gives you main stat even without dispelling anything also you can just not interrupt and get benefit from it with more str
just a clever use of game mechanics
errant ledge
and you are not interupting stuff, your going to get at most what...maybe 2 stacks?
Thats only 100-200 primary increase
Then
sick sentinel
which isnt bad
errant ledge
That only lasts 8 seconds
Take into consideration global cd
Thats really only 5 abilitys if timed correctly
undone sun
still more than just about any other race
errant ledge
So you get 1 fat IP
undone sun
is it on GCD
errant ledge
GCD of your abilitys
sick sentinel
racials are not on GCD
undone sun
arcane torrent is
errant ledge
Not the racial
undone sun
fireblood is not
errant ledge
Your not hearing what im saying
undone sun
so that's irrelevant
errant ledge
You pop fireblood
you have 8 sec of a buff
During those 8 sec
You have to deal with the global cd inbetween hitting spells
sick sentinel
it isnt a bad racial yet not the best and its same for every racial none is crazy good
errant ledge
Im not saying they are bad
Im trying to correct the general consensus that dark iron isnt the best tank race
Because atm thats what everyone thinks
Yet they are not doing any math
undone sun
i haven't heard anyone say it's bad outside of discords ยฏ_(ใ)_/ยฏ
errant ledge
You can kite bleeds...
You just dont let them hit you to apply the bleed
Most poison can be spell reflected/interupted
undone sun
nope
sick sentinel
with couple stacks of bleed/poisons you can get around 1k str for 8secs which is good 1k str is really high buff at least right now
ember arrow
reflected?
undone sun
not reflected at least
errant ledge
Yes, in legion the burning blade rogues had a deadly venom that stacks that can be spell reflected as well as the poison the snakes spit at you out in vol dun
Not everything is spell reflectable, not even all spells
But allot are
undone sun
I'm well aware of how reflecting abilities work, there is almost no way to generalize it
errant ledge
But even if you cant reflect a poison, you can stun them/kite to prevent it
errant ledge
This is off topic from the point at hand though, how often is that going to come into play...one or two dungeons in the expansion?
ember arrow
having an option that youd otherwise not have
esp since bleeds cant be dispelled almost
is always an advantage
errant ledge
I dont think the trade off of being able to remove that (when its not properly avoided in the first place) beats having higher secondary stats resulting in overall higher mitigation and mitigation uptime
Lets say there is a dungeon
lucid ginkgo
God damn, someone really typed all that up and hit enter
errant ledge
That every mob applies a bleed/dot/magic debuff
Ok, so thats 1 dungeon out of the entire expansion
When else are you going to gain a huge benifit with your racial?
ember arrow
@lucid ginkgo typed what?
lucid ginkgo
That long... thing up above
errant ledge
I personally feel everyone reads fireblood and goes "INCREASED PRIMARY AND I CAN DISPELL MYSELF AND GET BUFFD FOR DOING SO? HELL YES PLEASE!" When in reality...how often do you have that much shit to dispell off yourself?
Thats all im trying to say, i just feel its very over looked
undone sun
often enough for it to matter
it's also more about having the option to do it than not
errant ledge
If thats the case i think the group is the problem, and not you
ember arrow
undone sun
rip
errant ledge
Alright, now here is the other side of the coin
So as a human, you can get out of stuns
Same can be said for stuns
you can avoid most of them
ember arrow
ucant be a class that can remove bleeds that im aware of
lucid ginkgo
You can be a dwarf
errant ledge
If you are stund, then what? who is going to save you other then a paladin/someone to dispell you?
lucid ginkgo
That'll remove bleeds with racials. \o/
errant ledge
Being stund/feard/disorentated is the most deadly thing you can have happen to you as a tank other then bending over putting your back to the boss
ember arrow
well, stuns arent applied to you as often, nor are they as hard to avoid as bleeds
errant ledge
Neither are the dots/bleeds/poison which is what im saying
There are just as much if not more stuns then bleeds ect
ember arrow
definitely not
errant ledge
So your going to tell me that being stund for 4sec-who knows
Is better then having 1-2 bleeds/dots on you that could have been avoided int he first place?
If not dispelld by your healer?
ember arrow
tanks in bfa die t oconsistent high dmg intake, not to being oneshot while stunned
errant ledge
I dont think the trade off is worth it imo unless your group is complete trash
ember arrow
you can say that, but what unavoidable stuns are there
joe howler
and uhh
he doesnt even attack during it
lucid ginkgo
I can name one dangerous avoidable bleed too
errant ledge
Almost every dungeon has some type of shockwave stun frontal cone
And by itself dosnt seem deadly
When you are pulling multiple mobs, then ontop of that staggering them as you are maintaining good m+ pace pulling more mobs
You get to the point you have 2-3 mobs casting shockwave at different times
hot locust
and you can still dodge them all if you are good?
errant ledge
If you have DBM voice pack installed/name plate cast bars its easy to avoid
But for the other 90% id say otherwise
half merlin
theres that trash pack in shrine on the bridge
hot locust
That's great, we don't tell people to pick based on them being bad.
half merlin
those fuckers are rarely synched ๐
hot locust
We tell people what is good mathematically under good performance.
Because people should strive to be better than they are, even the best.
Getting hit by an avoidable stun
your reaction is not "oh I should have been human"
It's "damn I should have dodged that."
errant ledge
I have seen so many shit prot warriors get trucked when they get stund, and here is why. Warriors with there mitigation up are a brick shit house covered in gold covered in titanium. But when it falls off (aka during a stun) that is when your most weak
lucid ginkgo
Your reaction will be "Shit, I need to get good"
errant ledge
Your not reading the topic above lala
hot locust
I was reading it the whole time.
errant ledge
Your reading the one now and thats why your taking it out of context
lucid ginkgo
If you're getting stunned by something you can avoid, that has nothing to do with the class.
hot locust
Thanks though.
crisp pulsar
our haste break point still 30-32%?
errant ledge
The original reason this got brought up is because people are arguing that there are not avoidable dots/bleeds/magic ect
hot locust
there is no haste breakpoint.
errant ledge
When there are plenty
ember arrow
no stuns are
undone sun
that was never a breakpoint to begin with
hot locust
You're methods of dodging bleeds/poisons are much more punishing to the group as a whole than dodging a stun.
crisp pulsar
just making sure.
errant ledge
No way
hot locust
Yes way?
errant ledge
When you try to avoid a stun you risk shockwaving the entire group (givin your in a small space)
half merlin
yo question - how are you guys handling that last mob in kings rest. the zul-guy with the magic dmg? feels like im mostly dependant on the healer to survive? just thinking for m+, its gonna suck. but im not sure about the mechanics
hot locust
What?
errant ledge
With a bleed/poison you can kite safely all around your group
hot locust
You don't have to face a stun at your group to dodge it??????
lucid ginkgo
Doesn't that fall back to the point you made abouit the group being trash? If you're going to move to avoid the stuns, just on the same token the group needs to not be in front of the mob
errant ledge
You just said its less safe to try to avoid a bleed/poison then a stun
lucid ginkgo
You don't point the mob at the group
errant ledge
No...
half merlin
hes not casting it? @ember arrow
ember arrow
hes a caster
errant ledge
Obviously you would face away
hot locust
Then how are you risking stunning your group?
ember arrow
you face adds away as part of normal gameplay anyway
errant ledge
Read the parentheses
half merlin
so thats the general strat? apart from chaining cds like SR and DS and whatnot. fair nuff
lucid ginkgo
Okay, parentheses "givin' your small space"
crisp pulsar
only mobs i can think of that could stun your group is constructs in kings rest and they target a players location to stun not just the tank so everyone has to be looking out for it.
lucid ginkgo
Counter: There's no dungeon where you have less space than you need to dodge stuns by moving
errant ledge
"You're methods of dodging bleeds/poisons are much more punishing to the group as a whole than dodging a stun." So your saying the group has a higher chance of dying with you kiting the mob then you potentially stunning the group? obviously you would face him away lol
This is really off topic from where we have started
errant ledge
And noone can still provide math to correct the post above
half merlin
fair, cheers man @ember arrow
errant ledge
That bleed/poison can only be removed once every 2min
The mob can cast it as often as its ability comes off cd
So you dispell yourself once
Thats nice
Now you still have to kite
ember arrow
saves cds, healer mana
errant ledge
Yes, sigh this really isnt getting anywhere guys
I was kinda hoping some of the higher ups could answer this
But im just getting smartass left field views
ember arrow
well, we arent in agrement, no need to come with the "this isnt going anywhere"
like a gotcha
lucid ginkgo
The fact that you're talking to one of the "higher ups" doesn't help you in that goal?
especially when the "higher up" is going to repeat what's been said to you?
hot locust
You mean we don't agree with you so you think we are attacking you?
errant ledge
Im talking about the math behind the passive and the mitigation bonus of the racial
And all you guys keep bringing up is the bonuses of being able to dispell youself
A blind man can see the +'s
hot locust
If a racial bonus in the first place is what is helping you survive or not you have a whole host of other problems to worry about.
errant ledge
But i dont think the +'s of that out weigh the +'s of other racials
hot locust
I play a nightborne for christs sake.
sick sentinel
lol
ember arrow
why calling people smartass that arent being smartass?
sick sentinel
what is this
lucid ginkgo
That is not a smartass opinion, that is a fact.
errant ledge
Where is sense and marok when you need them
ember arrow
just to make your opinion seem elevated?
errant ledge
The only 2 respectable warriors
hot locust
@fierce juniper
hot locust
Where you at
undone sun
wat
sick sentinel
smh
hot locust
Sorry I'm not good enough for you, I guess?
undone sun
holy shit
lucid ginkgo
Am I good enough as a former top 10 prot warrior?
errant ledge
I have been in this chat for years, you guys constantly attack peoples outside views instead of actually doing the math yourself
lucid ginkgo
I casually dropped NA so it'd look more respectable
ember arrow
???
errant ledge
Then marok comes out with a guide with some math explaining the works and everyone just refers them to the pins or preaches info they already know
hot locust
Wonder where I fucked up as a kid never learning how to work with spreadsheets or do math.
errant ledge
You guys mainly deal with new warriors
So its not a problem
But when someone trying to min max has a serious question
crystal spire
shut the heck up lala you've never added a number in your life
lucid ginkgo
That's not true, either
ember arrow
"people disagree with me, lets go on a tantrum about how the discord is agaisnt me"
hot locust
Faide pls
lucid ginkgo
Because from being on the "higher up" side of things, I'll certainly tell you for a fact that it isn't just new warriors that are dealt with
lucid ginkgo
^
errant ledge
Its tank related, regarding math formulas provided in the game between 3 racials
Last i checkd this is the tank channel
final mist
Alright, what's going on?
final mist
You can ask me.
errant ledge
It's all above
final mist
Ah, I see.
crisp pulsar
the Tl'DR he wants to know racially speaking which is better Human or DI's
lucid ginkgo
There was an attempt at showing math, give him that much
ember arrow
coming up with hypotheticals isnt math
lucid ginkgo
"Attempt"
final mist
No, racials generally don't matter. They can help, but for the large majority of players, racials won't make much of a difference, and if they will for you, you already know this so you wouldn't be asking.
ember arrow
i guess you could call it that
final mist
Min-max something else.
crisp pulsar
math speaking 2000 haste with the human racial (2% secondary) is only 40 haste which is a gem
crystal spire
wut
crisp pulsar
so is 40 haste better then 1% physical damage reduction from all sources.
errant ledge
The math is that humans gain 2% in all secondarys
However it dosnt work how it says it does
It takes 2% from all sources per source
So if you have 55 haste on your gloves, 44 on your boots, it has to take 2% of 55 and 2% of 44 then add that grand total up and thats the bonus secondarys you get
green isle
humans have always gotten stronger as the expansion went on, the best race now may not be the best race next tier
it's ultimately a tiny difference
that's subject to change
timid jay
Ah yes
whole sedge
Sometimes I use thunder clap to generate rage ๐
ember arrow
good on ya
timid jay
The huge difference between taking 2% of everything individually and after you added it all up
undone sun
shit happens
timid jay
I love the difference between
(55+44)*0.02=1.98
and
55*0.02+44*0.02=1.98
timid jay
Funny how math works right?
whole sedge
oof
agile vessel
math proof, cosmo for TC!
errant ledge
Okay but now do that for every piece of gear you have with haste on it
undone sun
๐ค
dire oasis
what the fuck
green isle
is this a troll
hot locust
AND YOU SAY I CANT DO MATH?
crystal spire
๐
hot locust
WHAT?
errant ledge
Then compare that to 1% DR from dark iron (basicly 1% armor)
lucid ginkgo
I wil say Cosmo
Remember the time we briefly talked about the DR change and the math?
timid jay
2% of everything added up is the same as 2% of everything individually and then added up
It makes no difference
undone sun
undone sun
too bad i can't
hot locust
๐จ
ember arrow
AGAIN
undone sun
lol
ember arrow
u mean
timid jay
I'd say 1% phys DR or 2% extra secondaries is entirely situational and will depend on encounter
ยฏ_(ใ)_/ยฏ
errant ledge
Thats my entire point i was trying to make earlier, thank you
timid jay
If you're at that level of min maxing you'd probably just reroll to the FoTM tank anyway
errant ledge
Because here is the thing
1% dr is nice
but thats physical
ignore pain and bringing spell reflect off cd =more magic dmg reduction
ember arrow
?
green isle
?
ember arrow
wat
hot locust
How do you "bring" SR off CD?
ember arrow
SR isnt based on secondaries
errant ledge
spell reflect
ember arrow
IP has no cd
errant ledge
Negated magic dmg
green isle
sr is flat cd
errant ledge
Having more haste= less cd on abilitys =more rage=more mitigation
I shouldnt have to explain this
timid jay
SR isnt affected by AM
lucid ginkgo
^^^
timid jay
Fyi
green isle
you are trolling
dire oasis
you shouldn't be alowed to explain anything
errant ledge
SR isnt affected by haste?
lucid ginkgo
Nor is it effected by Haste
dire oasis
your brain is damaged
timid jay
No
undone sun
no it's not
timid jay
Its 25 seconds nothing changes that
lucid ginkgo
And another thing about SR
ember arrow
IP isnt affected by haste either
dire oasis
@errant thorn never bring this to my attention again
ember arrow
it has no cd
lucid ginkgo
if you reflect, the spell is gone
errant ledge
Wouldnt having higher uptime on ignore pain be better then 1 % physical dmg reduction?
undone sun
good luck getting that much any time soon ๐
lucid ginkgo
if you reflect, the magic DR is completely gone and you're now vulnerable to other forms of magic / dots on you
SR isn't what it was in Legion
errant ledge
Yes im aware clutch
hot locust
1% more phys damage reduction also means more uptime on IP ๐ค
undone sun
hide, you're in trouble @ember arrow
errant ledge
Im just speaking in terms of magic dmg reduction vs physical dmg reduction you would get from dark iron
errant ledge
I think the higher passives giving you higher mitigation uptime would be a better choice
whole sedge
y'all like typing I dig it
ember arrow
depends
errant ledge
This is why i brought this up
lucid ginkgo
You've been getting what you call smartass opinions after people have told you where you're mistaken repeatedly
ember arrow
it all ultimately depends, but when the DI racial shines, it shines BRIGHLTY
thats what i msaying
errant ledge
Because people have been comming out of left and right to throw there 2 cents
Then get shut down and disappear
ember arrow
by whom?
lucid ginkgo
So far the only one that's been reliably shut down, has been you
whole sedge
OUCH
lucid ginkgo
People are disappearing because they don't want to continue this
whole sedge
DOUBLE OUCH
ember arrow
its 2am where im at on saturday night, i got nowhere to go
half merlin
is IP reduction dmg based on after or before mitigation has been applied?
lucid ginkgo
Oh, no no, not referring to the SR CD.
undone sun
after
green isle
after
half merlin
thanks
errant ledge
How?
lucid ginkgo
And now look, you got what you wanted, the attention of one of the two "respectable warrior's" here.
๐
undone sun
There's always people lurking, there's always people looking to help out but when the "discussion" becomes irrelevant and asinine most tune out because it's not worth the time
fierce juniper
Racials are situational and there isn't one that's strictly better than all of the others. The difference between them is so minimal that it really doesn't matter.
There's no reason for this discussion to continue. Please move onto something else.
fierce juniper
pretty good
ember arrow
when
errant thorn
I agree with everything Marok has said.
dire oasis
LMAO
undone sun
lol
whole sedge
!
dire oasis
bye
undone sun
B&
raven ore
cya
jade socket
oof
whole sedge
no swearing mate what the heck
hot locust
๐
whole sedge
my kid is watching my screen he's gonna get influenced...
undone sun
๐จ
undone sun
๐
sick sentinel
dps is insane im loving it
errant thorn
And that's not me drinking the skyhold koolaid
ember arrow
oh i agree, was msotly smt that gets asked alot
sick sentinel
and can reflect some cool stuff
ember arrow
i liked the sense meta for 1 sec
sick sentinel
yep ๐ฆ
undone sun
don't we all
torn drift
Iโm personally still taking too much damage at 340 ilvl in prot
ember arrow
then you didnt play dk
torn drift
itโs a bummer :/
ember arrow
u can get to 30% in a heartbeat randomly too
errant thorn
DK is pretty funny with bonestorm
practically unkillable
you can fuck up so much on a DK too
stray wedge
I agree with everything Marok has said.
lucid ginkgo
Macro, you are not respectable enough
half merlin
taking 0 dmg on boss fights - taking a lot (sometimes) on trash pulls
ember arrow
can all valkyr transform to sense
and type that
@half merlin trash is generally more damaging
first week next week will be fortified
iirc
errant thorn
We're light hearted around here but not that much of trolls
cloud junco
shut up @lucid ginkgo , ur a mag'har
lucid ginkgo
๐
And you're a god damn panda
ass too hairy, can't enjoy it properly with clapping cheeks
cloud junco
๐
potent zephyr
๐
green isle
๐
undone sun
๐
sick sentinel
yikes panda.
half merlin
wanna bang in one more question before i hit it. the general consensus regarding trinkets (reading the sticky) is str with haste/vers as on use or proc. so having a 340 with str and shitty on use / proc is worse than say 325 str with haste/vers as use or proc? feels tough to downgrade tbh
or is str that valuable?
effectively trading like 40 str for 600+ proc haste, not sure about uptime or avg use per min
ember arrow
you can divide the proc by 3
thats how much on average u get
i think thats a decent estimate
sick sentinel
strength gives armor and increases your IP absorbs through AP increases multiplied by your mastery, etc, etc.
and probably adds to block value. idk this for sure, it did in the way past.
ember arrow
thats how it worked out for alot of proc trinkets, but i didnt do the maths recently
astral crystal
Lmao this discord dramans
crystal heron
guys i just got absolutely destroyed in a heroic and id like some thoughts on it.
I was doing everything correctly but i got killed by about 3 or 4 mobs
ember arrow
what dungeon?
crystal heron
the cthulu one
ember arrow
underrot?
crystal heron
shrine of storms
sick sentinel
then you are either undergeared or didnt do everything correctly
ember arrow
well, what was talent setup
crystal heron
i used every bit of mitigation i could and i got chunked
the icyveins one
im 318 heroics should be nothing right?
fierce juniper
They should be pretty easy, yeah
sick sentinel
hmmm which pack and which ability killed you if you tell em we can help
crystal heron
its the 4 mobs just after the two rune boss dudes
sick sentinel
right pack?
fresh thicket
to be fair, I find I'm too dependent on the healer. When I die, I just check the log and it usually is something like 10s without heal
sick sentinel
there is a stacking debuff you should interrupt otherwise it will become oneshot after 5-6 stacks
crystal heron
i pulled the 3 mobs behind that mob
sick sentinel
one that will make you take increased shadow damage
fierce juniper
Like Revan said, if you're pugging or something, sometimes you'll get into a group with a garbage healer and you'll just bleed out.
Generally though that's not the case. If you're consistently having trouble you're likely doing something wrong.
crystal heron
my healer is my pocket healer gimmie a sec ill take a screen cap of the meters if i can
ember arrow
i did mythics at 280, so a hc at 318 shouldnt be oneshots
maybe somemechanic wasnt followed, maybe you werent dispelled
if you let adds do their thing, youll die
crystal heron
cant get it
ember arrow
and as marok said, you cant blame everything on yoursel (well unless you can ofc), but a healer is way more important now than ever
fresh thicket
A common mistake is low use of shield block
ember arrow
well, since legion anyway
sick sentinel
probably the unending darkness casters.
crystal heron
i use it on cd
fresh thicket
well don't, the uptime can't be 100%, keep it when you are actually getting hit
sick sentinel
which all the time I pug it, DPS ignore interrupting it.
crystal heron
i do that as well but when its a magical mob i use it for the damage
fresh thicket
also aligning some good shockwave to interupt mob casts isn't a bad idea either and if worst comes to worse, you can always kite as on groups you should have close to 100% uptime of demo shout
crystal heron
the current setup for warriors feels like im doing way more than other tanks would be to do the same stuff but better
fresh thicket
It's not such an issue, the bigger problem is gcd
especially the one on IP is super annoying
but I guess a small buff to block value or chance wouldn't be bad
crystal heron
if they up the absorb % in IP id say that would help alot with magic damage
fresh thicket
Every tank is bad on magic damage
crystal heron
when you have tanks like dh pally and dk who dont worry as much about it because they can heal it up it feels a bit unfair and imbalanced
fresh thicket
everyone only mitigates physical damage pretty much
that's why we have IP
it should scale with strength, so it does improve with gear
sick sentinel
how are prot pallies looking right now? i know a lot of the tanks didn't look so good fresh 120 in dungeons, prot doing okay geared?
crystal heron
feels like i do when i play mine
crystal heron
i take a big hit i heal most of it up
crystal heron
heroics at about 309
fresh thicket
the DK still takes more dmg, the fact they can heal some of it back doesn't make it better
sick sentinel
are prot warriors holding up so far in mythics? they gonna be okay in the raids or in a bad place right now?
crystal heron
meanwhile my prot warrior has issues tanking 4 mobs in a heroic at 318
sick sentinel
well you are doing something wrong
I cleared mythics first week 10/10 297 ivl w/ 271 shield easy. I'm 346 now.
ember arrow
Yes. Mine doesnt
sick sentinel
because i had no problems with mythic at 320
prot warrs in mythics is way fine.
prot have any hope of having a reliable raid spot as off tank or something?
toxic wadi
what deals more damage to single target, thunder clap or revenge?
sick sentinel
tclap.
ember arrow
@sick sentinel fine in raid
toxic wadi
kk
ember arrow
@toxic wadi tC
strong forum
btw on ashvanes BiS chest, do we go for strength in numbers or overwhelming power ๐ค
toxic wadi
ty
ember arrow
OP
sick sentinel
revenge is rage dump unless free by procc. generally tclap is your hardest hitting ability if you're talented correctly, until your gear catches up your shield slam.
you want survivability or more damage
strong forum
stacking haste is so lame though... :/
strong forum
according to guide both are same tier so idk
25k possible more HP sounds juicy
for higher keys
and im already at 18.75% base haste
although, yes i know haste doesnt lose value
i mean, i dont have the chest yet so it doesnt matter currently, just for general knowledge
junior ivy
does anyone know enough about archeology to answer a question
sick sentinel
more haste, better rage gain, more block brace for impacts, easier IP uptime, short SB CD, shorter CD everything through rage use > AM.
dawn warren
So i am new to prot warrior, and it feels like i die so easy? i have look up the rotation but i still feel so squishy :/
help
fathom field
I ran devastator on a tank target dummy for one minute using devastator and booming voice. My damage taken was lower with devastator because I got more shield slams which priced brace for impact. Anyone else getting the same results?
*procced
dark junco
@dawn warren knowing when to use what is really important. Prot warrior lack sustain and is unforgiving if you miss a mitig. But healers say weโre smooth to heal since, if youโre good, youโre less spiky.
fathom field
^ this
We have so many ways to mitigate too
I mean even by accident I at least have one or two mitigations up
solid mist
last stand with AM is like... always up it seems ๐
fathom field
I didnt know haste doesn't impact sr
sick sentinel
mhm.
fathom field
ty
ember arrow
@dark junco Brewmaster has an extremely high skill ceiling,
i stopped reading at that sentence
little star
only the pro's know when to purify
fathom field
lol
little star
is there actually a wa that tells you when to purify ...
ember arrow
other than that, yo ucan macro your rotation to one button
fathom field
The more I play the more I think prot is a strong five man tank class
ember arrow
@little star not directly, but it shows stagger, and it shows it relatively, so its not like the standard ui
fathom field
Just gotta know when to use am when to intercept and when to kite
ember arrow
basically if it says youre red, youre red
little star
hm i play BM as an alt for m+ for keys that i probably shouldnt do on warrior and default stagger bar is fine for me to know when i need to purify, that plus i can time i think the pack will die with ISB uptime and know when i have spare charges
little star
don't need a big aura in the middle saying im in the red flashing at me to stagger because usually i wont be in the red(atleast in m0s)
ovc dipping in after a smash from a mob or boss
BM seems like common sense to me tbh
fathom field
What is everyone's damage % for dungeons?
mine is 30-35% thunderclap
12-15% attack
14-16% shield slam
10% deep wounds
10% revenge
8% ish devastate
sharp lotus
Whats considered good dps at around 340 ilvl?
little star
Single target or multi?
and if so how many targets
queen aurora
how important is haste if you have into the fray on?
little star
really important
sharp lotus
just for single, I meant to post this in arms. I am trying to find out the dps role benchmark for dps
mb
little star
ST 4-5k is pretty good 2 targets like 7-9k
toxic wadi
Is Merektha's Fang good for prot?
I have a 340 ilvl merekth'as fang
whereas my lowest trinket is 298, Mercy's Psalter
Should I use the fang?
little star
Fang got nerfed but the dmg is still pretty good
the strength is really good if you have no other high ilvl piece
vagrant cape
oswain's for sale for 255k, I have 285k...
why is it still so hard to turn down? (320 shieldbtw)
oh, it's only a 350 shield? psh. never mind. plebeian trash.
fathom field
lol
255k is worth over $30 because tokens are 110k
you rly want to spend $30+ on a shield for a week?
final mist
People spend gold on meaningless things. What's worth it to you (or isn't), isn't the same as everyone else.
I've bought multiple BoEs for multiple characters, others of my friends have or haven't done the same.
fathom field
Ya but with token prices coming down everything should go down in value which its not
weary notch
doesn't work that way
final mist
Token value has nothing to do with market value
An item's market value is supply and demand. That's how economics works.
fathom field
It decreases the relative value of everything else but the opportunity cost is higher
final mist
A token's market value isn't anywhere close to the same thing as the BoE shield's.
fathom field
It's called opportunity cost
weary notch
these are the ways economies are supposed to work. These are not the ways economies work in game or in real life
TL:DR: you economics teacher is wrong
fathom field
Lol
tiny sphinx
would say it's influential, indirectly, people cling to currency like a drowning man to a fat sack of cash hoping it will float forever
fathom field
Just saying. 330k for $45 or that 355 weapon?
final mist
Is it worth it to you? Obviously not.
fathom field
huh?
final mist
Tokens have nothing to do with another item's market value, is my point.
Whatever way you think an economy is supposed to work, is not how an economy actually works.
final mist
I'm sure there are people that buy tokens to buy gear, but the vast majority of people don't think of or actually buy tokens to get gold.
weary notch
no, not magic. Greed. Failure of oversight
final mist
Most people (and the intended use of) buy tokens with gold to get game time. They're gold sinks.
fathom field
Or I'd you are like me you sell 110k gold for a token every day because people dont understand it
tiny sphinx
which makes it an indirect influence, the gold cost of a token will affect how people perceive the value of their gold vs an item
some people will dismiss it entirely, some won't
fathom field
Lol what is going on here
final mist
No, it's not an indirect influence, because they're not linked at all.
A token's gold value is linked to the supply and demand ratio of tokens.
That has no bearing on other in-game items.
weary notch
sal is correct
sharp lotus
@fathom field shhh let it happen
final mist
It goes up when the supply is high and demand is low, and vice versa.
weary notch
you don't see token prices fluctuate wildly when they release new tiers and your 350 shield that used to sell for 300k is now obsolete
undone sun
Which is also incredibly server based, volatile from server to server
final mist
It has no bearing on a BoE's value, or ore's value, etc, because all those item's have their own supply/demand ratios, depending on their own worth.
I have a very good idea of how real world economies and WoW's economies operate, thank you.
You clearly do not.
undone sun
warped ridge
Sorry but no. "No bearing on other in-game items" is just clearly wrong. It's correct that because of transaction cost, the market isn't fully fluid. So gold prices on things aren't 100% equivalent to dollars. But they're very close.
exotic matrix
As warriors I believe it should be our mantra to never pull out of these hoes
fathom field
In retired from investment banking and this shit is funny
final mist
A token's gold value doesn't have bearing on other items. That's not it works. That's not how any of this works.
weary notch
investment banking. Lol. That's not even close to real world economy
final mist
I have 36 million gold in this game. I've exploited the game's economy for a very long time, because I know and understand the game and how to play it.
tiny sphinx
economies are run by people, people are subjective, manipulative (and gullible), you're correct to say a token's price doesn't affect the price of much else, but it does affect the perceived value of gold
final mist
It's very different from "investment banking".
warped ridge
Yes it does? It totally does. I would never pay $110k gold for an item right now specifically because that represents a month of game time, and the time is worth more than the item (to me). If the tokens cost 1 million gold, I might consider buying the item.
Unless you're trolling, in which case I've totally fallen for it.
fathom field
agaha
warped ridge
But there is absolutely a connection between the gold price of tokens and the gold price of other things.
fathom field
I don't think they are trolling dan
Duh
Reminds me of gm when they didnt even have complete accounting records and they told us they were profitableml
warped ridge
If those things weren't correlated, then there's a huge arbitrage opportunity. Huge arbitrage opportunities get filled quickly. Efficient Market Hypothesis is the closest thing Economics has to a fundamental theorem.
final mist
And you're thinking in terms of real world economics, which WoW is not.
fathom field
lol what
weary notch
you're thinking in terms of real world economic theory
fathom field
it's just opportunity cost. rly simple concept
tiny sphinx
this is true, but a lot of similar principles apply
fathom field
guess you dont think it applies to wow? because it's a video game?
silver breach
warped ridge
It's not that far off. It isn't 100% efficient because games etc. But it's way closer to 100% efficient than 0%.
weary notch
it doesn't apply to wow becase wow has no legal system in place
weary notch
in WoW you can corner a market entirely
fathom field
You need a legal system to create supply and demand?
weary notch
in the real world you usually can't do that, or at least not for long
final mist
Alright, since this is clearly going nowhere, and has no relation to #protection anyways, drop it and move on, or take this to #off-topic.
Done with this.
fathom field
off topic baby
weary notch
read up on this asshole, baby: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Shkreli
warped ridge
In the real world you can't corner a market because governments put limits on them to protect the real world interests of consumers.
ember arrow
๐จ
weary notch
they try, they don't always succeed
warped ridge
WoW doesn't have those stakes, so it's actually cleaner
agile vessel
warped ridge
^reasonable
clear sapphire
so whats going to be the flavor of flask for heroics this coming week?
weary notch
STR
warped ridge
On topic opinion: how horrible are pugs going to be to tank for first week? I've gotta decide between raiding as dps for the guild or tanking on my own. Would rather tank.
jovial reef
find a new guild
fathom field
lol what does the former CEO of valiant have to do with anything?
I may as well link a picture of donald trump in pajamas
warped ridge
Guilds are garbage on my server and transferring is too expensive. But that's the right answer tbh.
little star
look for a guild to tank for, lots of multi server hc/normal "guilds" nowadays
warped ridge
Any idea how I'd find something like that? Sounds great but not even sure where to look.
jovial reef
pugs are the reason people say that raiding takes a ton of time and isn't worth doing
organized guild raids are too good to miss out on
raven kernel
pugs are also part of the reason why PrOt WarRioR BaD
jovial reef
^
@warped ridge check wowprogress on your server if you can't go on other realms and read up on guilds that fit your aim for progress
you may have to look through hundreds of guilds but you'll find a fit eventually
raven kernel
the community opinion is annoying but its also kinda interesting that everyone is sandbagging prot so we'll probably get some free buffs from blizz
little star
i see alot of prot warrior bashing coming from the chat of multiple streamers, it doesnt help that the streamers agree with them though
jovial reef
i just want prot to have IP off the gcd because it feels bad to use it atm
other than that i think prot is fine
raven kernel
the IP thing was an intentional design decision, like it or not
it'll be hard for blizz to go back on that
little star
IP or DS off the gcd would be great
warped ridge
I kind of like it tbh, but I know I'm in the minority. Being forced to make a real choice on that gcd between offense and defense increases the skill cap.
raven kernel
i dont >like< it but i'm fine with it
it does make prot harder to play cos you have to constantly choose between defense/offense like you said Dan
effectively raising the skill cap on prot
little star
Raises the skillcap sure, but at the cost of feeling good to play. But im sure everyone here knows that and its probably been said here a hundred times
dark junco
Warrior skillcap is high, or more like its unforgiving
So its easy to badly play a warrior
warped ridge
It definitely felt unforgiving the first week in M-0
raven kernel
yeah its easier to play badly on prot
dark junco
Yeah so you get a wide mean
raven kernel
yeah then most of the good warriors play with guild groups
and those on the lower spectrum pug
so rip community opinion
warped ridge
Classic tanking problem. No reasonable guilds need tanks because you can't have a reasonable guild without them.
raven kernel
back in classic having a good MT was like the pride of your guild
little star
well most guilds will have had their tanks chosen for bfa since either pre patch or had rerollers mid farm
dark junco
^
tiny sphinx
but back then you had a roster of like 8 tanks
little star
i know we recruited our 2nd tank for uldir 2 weeks be4 bfa came out
dark junco
Easier to switch dpses
tiny sphinx
as opposed to just 2
raven kernel
nah back then like 6 of those 8 tanks were dps warriors
and only tank for fights like 4horsemen
lol
dark junco
Haha
little star
naxx was a wierd time, 1 tank bosses and 8 tank bosses
tiny sphinx
of course, hell even the MT would only spec prot on those "improtant" fights
raven kernel
your real MT would be known by name to everyone on the server
pretty much every big guild's MT was known by everyone
tiny sphinx
entire legions of guilds never even saw a binding
little star
i like how you remember
tiny sphinx
it was an endeavor just getting enough people attuned to naxx40
raven kernel
its engraved in my soul
tiny sphinx
much less having enough tanks reach the requirements using the patchwerk tank calculator
raven kernel
back then just standing on ironforge bridge with full dfreadnaught was like WOAHHHHHHHH
tiny sphinx
Nihilum's first kill video of kel'thuzad was wild
cloud bone
Is it worth it to drop 5 ilvls for a socket?
jovial reef
if it's not wep/shield i'd say yes
vagrant cape
I asked an arms warrior in this random heroic atal'dazar to swap to prot loot spec for the shield. They got the shield but couldn't trade it. NotLikeThis
amber siren
enditall.jpg
vagrant cape
next dungeon was a motherlode
but the boss that dropped the shield was dead
I left immediately
cloud bone
lol
loud comet
the whole new personal loot model is cancer
vagrant cape
I mean, you couldn't trade ilvl upgrades in legion either. That's not the problem (yet)
well
it did cause a problem for me
but blizz has to keep us subbed somehow, you know?
and I like supporting small indie devs
surreal stump
just like the bear i was playing who had 345 wf polearm, went balance to get a staff for guildie. staff dropped couldnt trade the 340 staff cause i didnt have a staff i guess? lol
quiet relic
Howler or lingering spore?
undone sun
howler hands down, spore pod is trash
quiet relic
thats what i was thinking
wary crystal
feelsbadman i got a 345 spore bod
woeful reef
Gotta like getting these random tells
snow nest
does ablative shielding stack in any way? separate procs?
undone sun
just about every trait stacks, and it's a single proc but the armor granted is increased per trait
snow nest
cool cool ty
i knew some stacked duration / proc / etc but it seems all over the place
undone sun
What Stacks for Azerite Traits?
Stat increases, Damage additions, Healing additions
What doesn't stack?
Duration multipliers/additions, proc chance, number of targets, etc
snow nest
great thanks
undone sun
runic trout
Hey have a very silly question but what is the stat prio with prot ?
vocal nimbus
ilvl > str > haste > vers=mast > crit
runic trout
Ty buddy
runic trout
Going to do it ty
upbeat monolith
Is Darkmoon Deck: Blockades Bis?
tidal quarry
My EU brethren, there is a 330+ shield reward from a WQ in Vol'dun today.
undone sun
It's one of the better defensive trinkets pre-raid primarily because of how much strength it gives at the given ilevel. @upbeat monolith
acoustic stratus
is prot warrior really in a bad spot or is it just memes
empty breach
can I ask an awkward question
why is protection ignored on every simulation list I come around?
it's really odd ._.
undone sun
no working profile
empty breach
could you elaborate?
undone sun
SimC requires Profiles of each spec to be maintained for the current patch, then it requires an APL(action priority list) to correctly "play" the rotation correctly to do damage.
Currently Prot has neither working currently so it's excluded for obvious reasons.
undone sun
https://puu.sh/BonAV/58c1c3e3bd.png it's being worked on, but slowly and not on their top priority list
upbeat monolith
doesn't shield block, block any ranged attack?
vocal nimbus
Not all
Usually just ranged autoattacks
Mobs that cast things like "Shot" can be either blockable or not
upbeat monolith
So normal ranged attack(not cast) are blockable?
prisma night
Is it trial and error to see whats blockable or not? Seems like a really dumb system
Would wowhead have that info on whether different abilities are bloackable so we could atleast look it up? Maybe a list or compiled info for what is and isnt blockable?
amber siren
There's a list for raids/dungeons in the pins
prisma night
Oh there it is mustve glossed right over that link
undone sun
trial and error, yes
same goes for reflectable
it's nearly impossible to generalize it
tawny crown
undone sun
correct
old zephyr
Are the uldir azerite traits in the guide guide yet or should I wait ร bit morte before having a look again ?
ionic ridge
Guys, can someone explain how Brace for impact stacks exactly ?
strong forum
pretty simple
you get 1 stack for Each SS you do that lasts 9 sec
if you SS again in that window you get 1 stack more for 9 seconds
it does not refresh the duration of your 1st stack
you have seperate timers if you will
take it as multiple buffs instead of stacks, rather
ionic ridge
Alright thnx
Now, does each trait generate his own stacks ?
Supposedly you have 2 traits of BFI, each generating let's say 2 stacks
undone sun
just about every trait stacks, https://puu.sh/Boquo/3b891b8f83.png the duration does not
ionic ridge
It's not the "what part does stack" that I want to get my head around
it's the
Multiple applications part
undone sun
multiple traits only increase the trait's numbers, not how they act slam still only grants the 1 stack regardless
cinder nova
If they increase block by 165 and SS by 205 then extra BFI will just add damage and block per SS.
2 BFI traits is 330 block and 410 damage
3 is 495 block and 615 damage
ionic ridge
But realisticly you won't go for 3
cinder nova
^
ionic ridge
Alright then
strong forum
yes
cinder nova
remember our azerite traits are ez
ionic ridge
How many stacks Are you guys having usually ?
cinder nova
1 booty clap and 2 whatever's clever
urban walrus
One stack applies at t=1 and stack 2 applies at t=2 , you will have 2 stacks until t=9 an 1 stack between t=9 and t=10
strong forum
usually 1-2
ionic ridge
Alright now that's clearer
strong forum
if you use SS in aoe that is
strong forum
you get a timer for each SS
austere oar
do you guys pop Ava before pulling a "big" pack ?
strong forum
period
cinder nova
Yeah
austere oar
feel like i'm out of time with all the gcd's at pull
cinder nova
You can do 30K cleave easy
ionic ridge
Yup
cinder nova
W h e w l a d
ionic ridge
^
strong forum
waycrest manor and pull entire room with gluttenous guy
urban walrus
ionic ridge
Pop Ava, watch them melt down, and have your cd's back up 30 seconds later
strong forum
waycrest is hands down the best dungeon
jagged bay
hi
strong forum
so many big pulls
strong forum
not really possible atm is it
why should affixes change the way i think about a dungeon
i liked BRH for the same reasons
giga pulls
severe steeple
He liked BRH ๐คฎ๐คฎ๐คฎ
viral garden
Can anyone answer a question for me? If we have the Deafening Crash azerite trait, does Thunderclap take priority over Shield Slam while Demolishing Shout is up? Sorry if this has been asked, couldn't find any notes on icy veins and this chat moves kind of quick to scroll up and search.
old zephyr
As long as avatar is not active this Doesn't really matter so no, Shield Slam First
With avatar, I tend to do TC First, but is that the bezt, no idea
viral garden
alright, appreciate the input
old zephyr
Without avatar, this Will be at worst 2 gcd of demo shout "lost" but you can afford this and it won't affect the up time, so rage gen is top prio
strong forum
TC on CD if you have demo up yes
old zephyr
With avatar this can be ร lot of DC up time lost so I don't know if the rage gen overcome that
sick sentinel
with Avatar and a bit of haste you can do TC->something else->TC->something else etc
not sure if that is any good
sick sentinel
I prefer TC->SS(or revenge if SS is on CD) ->TC->IP->TC
viral garden
What I'm referring to tends to be situations where you dump rage into Revenge or IP and shield slam either resets or has come off CD at that point, and you then have both shield slam and TC available and the decision making between the two at that point with the trait in mind
copper basin
Anyone mind helping me out and figuring out if this swap is worth?
I don't think it is. But just wanted to make sure.
old zephyr
The easy answer is "do the 10 extra rage from ss help me fait more than the 2 secs of demo shout"
In ร vacum I'd say rage is better Because anger management. But especially in AoE rage can overcap an be wasted so...
sick sentinel
well with my setup SS is better
because I have 1 deafening crash and 2x Brace for impact
vagrant cape
@copper basin ilvl > everything (except maybe for jewelry)
strong forum
hehe
copper basin
Even vs the block rating - that's all that was swaying me
strong forum
pRoT hAs nO sElFhEaLiNg
sick sentinel
azerite veins is cheating
vagrant cape
@copper basin i did not see that... Hmm... I honestly don't know. I'd have to do math with armor and figure out how much that block is doing for you.
sick sentinel
is block like the more you get the less it is worth?
sick sentinel
because like 263 block rating for me is 0.40%
strong forum
but there is diminishing return
vagrant cape
The diminishing returns are only in place to make sure each block upgrade isn't exponentially better.
Overall it's a near-linear power increase from increasing block
sick sentinel
is the icy veins stat priority accurate ? ( I know that for DPS I should sim myself but I don't think I can do that for prot)
vagrant cape
Each X amount of block will numerically grant smaller and smaller block value %, but each X amount of block will grant the same relative power as the last X gained.
strong forum
yes
sick sentinel
is it normal for STR to be last?
strong forum
no strength is top
sick sentinel
thank god
sick sentinel
my DC is on my head
sick sentinel
also this
strong forum
i think emblem is better than loa figurine
cuz constant mainstat and good haste proc
sick sentinel
thanks a lot
I was focusing on Fury and then my raid leader told me to go prot for raids and I am trying to speedrun figuring it all out
vagrant cape
Wow I want your life. I wanna go prot but they're making me dps D:
strong forum
/gquit
vagrant cape
But I'm in the best raiding guild on my server and I wanna make a name for myself tanking m+ and normal/heroic nights when I can