is it worth stacking?
#protection
simple flicker
ember dagger
only if the other trait available for your highest level Azerite piece is trash
junior ivy
i havent been paying attentiob to traits 😦
attention*
i might hvae to reforge some of my hgear
sick sentinel
I have Deafening, Callous Reprisal, Bloodsport atm.
neat harbor
bloodsport is good though I think
sick sentinel
its alright.
neat harbor
ish
junior ivy
i got a new shield tongiht 😄 from the prison place
sick sentinel
35kish IPs.
neat harbor
yeah, I like the fact that bloodsport sort of synergizes with the new meta of weaving IPs in with shield blocks
to keep up AM
haste just makes prot feel so much more fun and playable
the way it reduced ability CDs now is really neat
summer basalt
its better stalwart navigation enchant or quick navigation (i know the guide say stalwart , but the other its more haste)
sick sentinel
stalwart.
you'll have plenty of haste from gear/ITF. armor is still solid choice.
can confirm they dont stack (equipped 2 deafening)
ember arrow
What are those 2 enchants anyway?
sick sentinel
demo shout had 4 seconds remaining on debuff, only refreshed to 6 seconds
lethal delta
the bonus damage will stack, the extra time wont
sick sentinel
yep
lethal delta
I'm really hoping warriors are more viable for m+s n stuff this time around
sick sentinel
What tanks are traditionally good in mythic + (returning player here)
tiny spear
dk is still top pick
livid lava
whats the approximate stat weight for prot? I'm a new tank player and im used to just simming my characters lol
tiny spear
warriors basicly bottom tier
lethal delta
wouldnt doubt that with the self healing, i didnt even gear my dk much and it was so easy in legion
sick sentinel
Haste
Versatility >= Mastery
Critical Strike
Strength
lethal delta
but ive been warrior since vanilla, and my dude has all my reps and everything so i have such a hard time abandoning him
sick sentinel
Warriors bottom tier now or in legion?
tiny spear
in mythic+ its bottom tier now
livid lava
@sick sentinel are there numbers or just take iLvl and look for those stats first
sick sentinel
taken from icy-veins
lethal delta
boo, but do well in raids
has to do with survivability and DPS i think
DKs can just get aggro and keep it forever
specially with the threat nerf
tiny spear
there is a lot of things tbh
we lack some utility compared to the other tanks
we are quite squishy outside SB
lethal delta
yeah :/
sick sentinel
Trying to decide on what tank alt i want to level so this is helpful
tiny spear
hoping for a 8.1 remake
livid lava
im getting really sad that i chose warrior for my tank lol
lethal delta
ive kinda felt that
tiny spear
IP needs to be replaced with something proper
lethal delta
Yeah, but the big rework happened already
tiny spear
well they went back to IP because they ran out of time
lethal delta
maybe 8.1 ive heard theyre gonna do things to shamans
sick sentinel
well at least warrior tanks have good dps : P
tiny spear
they are changing shamans and SP. WE can have they have figured out what to do with prot at that time
fierce halo
I feel fine playing warrior right now.
lethal delta
come again?
oh no i feel fine atm too. i started mythics today and thy went fine
im just worried when m+ comes out and i just CANT do it because m'class
lethal delta
thats good, i didnt even do that back in legion, was more raid focused
tiny spear
you are bottom tier however, and some people will focus on that when picking groupds
fierce halo
I also think it's going to be fine in m+, if you are out of defenses, you can leap out and kite, cause we do so much dmg anyway
lethal delta
i gotta brush up on that. some of em pull off me randomly
tiny spear
as i said, you will do fine at 10+
lethal delta
but thats cus i have a ret pally and an outlaw. one does stupid single target, the other cleaves like crazy
tiny spear
you will still be bottom tier tho
lethal delta
just like life
ember arrow
unless you do top keys, it doesnt matter
fierce halo
And with more and more haste we get, the better our defensive uptime will get
lethal delta
yeah, my ilvl went up by like 30 today, i noticed it getting better as the night went on
tiny spear
being a dk tank in low m+ is still going to be vastly easier then being a warrior tank
you can basicly solo it
ember arrow
depends
if warr and dk dynamics will become similar as in legion, both can solo them
tiny spear
we dont have bracers bro 😦
lethal delta
yeah. rip bracers :c
tiny spear
well thats what makes it soloable 😛
ember arrow
death strike heals for 25% of dmg taken
lethal delta
idk, with me and its kind of a warrior tradition
tiny spear
have you tried them on live tho? I mean they are "nerfed" but they still heal a shitton
lethal delta
dks?
ember arrow
ye i play both
: Healing for Waycrest Reveler: 03:48 (49 Sec):
- Offtank 844.1K (18.0K, 71.8%)
- Sjoemeq 287.6K (5868, 24.5%)
this was on dk
tiny spear
guessing offtank is you
ember arrow
yea
sick sentinel
thats fucked
tiny spear
sick sentinel
I'll probably just re-roll arms tbh if prot cant do top key
broken kite
legion war =/= bfa war
ember arrow
legion m+ isnt bfa m+
so its kinda weird people complain about being bottom tier for content thats not out
tiny spear
monk tanks looking top tier aswell tho
ember arrow
so i try to draw parallels
tiny spear
tbf people have been running them a lot on beta
ember arrow
tank choice doenst matter in raids unless youre top 100 i say, even then
broken kite
totally untrue
lethal delta
ill just get up both and hop around tbh.
tiny spear
i'd say thats not accurate either.
ember arrow
oh do tell
lethal delta
i could never betray warrior in the long run, i always go back
tiny spear
as a dk'd be able to basicly self sustein myself while only slightly overgearing content in a raid
tiny spear
plenty of guilds progress through content they overgear
tiny spear
ofc it does for them
ember arrow
if you progress on content that you overgear, that means you got bigger problems than class pick
broken kite
class pick still impacts it
tiny spear
most people doing mythic raids progress while overgearing it
broken kite
regardless of other issues
amber siren
Unless a fight requires a specific spec for a very niche ability (stampeding roar, death grip etc) then Levko is right
You playing well is a bigger differential if you picked DK or bear
tiny spear
doesnt actually matter what sort of content you do. A slong as you are not clearing everything within a few weeks you will progress while overgearing content
plyaing well is always the biggest factor, but that doesnt mean claass choice doesnt impact
ember arrow
the fact that guilds that do mythic raids 3 months after release think that tank choice matters
doesnt mean it does
tiny spear
tell that to dk's soloing current tier normal bosses 😛
amber siren
self-healing is the least important thing in mythic raiding?
ember arrow
waht normal bosses?
long ridge
Playing well is a pretty silly argument cause if you play well on war you can play just as well on dk and be more effective lol
amber siren
normal bosses 
tiny spear
just liek you said before, when we dont have anything now we draw parallels levko
lethal delta
teach meh
tiny spear
you just cant solo the same things on a warrior that you can on a dk, especially after we dont have bracers anymore
ember arrow
and on dk you cant self heal as much anymore
tiny spear
you can self heal enough bro :p
amber siren
no one is picking a dk in raids for their self healing my dude
ember arrow
self healing is like the last thing in m raiding
only dk has self healing thats relevant in that content
since its their whole schtick
tiny spear
thats not true rybie. Mythic progression guilds might not
amber siren
yeah i was gonna say
tiny spear
they are beast yep
but thats for progression content. especially content you undergear
ember arrow
they require constant healing
tiny spear
stagger is really good for content you undergear
amber siren
i mean, lets be real here; normal and heroic raiding tank choice impact is as minor as it gets and for mythic raiding for this tier most guilds will be gearing before it comes out to minimise any 'undergeared' impact
weary notch
wait, DKs are soloing current content bosses? Seriously, I want to see that
tiny spear
ofc the choice matters for people who will be progressing through those normal and heroic raids over time
amber siren
it won't
weary notch
how?
tiny spear
what do you base that on?
amber siren
ember arrow
your point that dk was strong was that they can solo bosses
which is in no way an indicator of a tank's strength
tiny spear
no my point was that when they overgear content they require less healing then most other tanks
which helps guilds progress through content they overgear
and i'm still waiting rybie
bleak wyvern
if a dk needs to solo a boss ur group fucking sucks
tiny spear
yes we have been over that
amber siren
waiting for what? do you want me to link the entire warcraftlogs front page? all tanks cleared normal and heroic within the first day of it being out
antorus that is
and nh
and tos
like dude
tiny spear
that nhas nothing to do with groupds that progress through that content over time?
like literally nothing
bleak wyvern
war tanks are fine
amber siren
if you're 3 months into reclearing uldir and you wipe no one is going to seriously say 'this wouldn't of happened if the warrior tank death striked this boss'
like your raid did bad
that's not a tank issue
bleak wyvern
the only thing taht really matters in dungeons are healers ect all tanks are fine
tiny spear
diesnt matter what kind of issue it is. If you make it easier on the group by taking a blood tank over something else, that means tank choice does matter
bbbrain thats a pile crap lol
bleak wyvern
ya if you suck lol
ember arrow
bdk isnt a particularly good raid tank
amber siren
lmfao ok dude, i'm honestly not interested in elitism in fucking heroic aids
ember arrow
i dont see why you take it as example
tiny spear
tell me why every tank was a blood dk in the mdi then?
bleak wyvern
fotm
ember arrow
mdi is a raid?
tiny spear
no i was asnwering the dude saying there was no difference in tanks in dungeons
i wasnt answering you there levki
i literally mentioned the guys name
ember arrow
by mdi's logic, all tanks suck
bleak wyvern
guess some war tanks are better than others
ember arrow
except bdk
weary notch
healing is about the worst thing a tank can have. Unless there is no healer. The healer doesn't know when you're going to heal, so one of you overheals. Healing is shit in raids
for tanks
tiny spear
"guess some war tanks better then others" rofl
tiny spear
and i was doing it in 250 gear
bleak wyvern
kinda easy
weary notch
bullshit you were, zabu
bleak wyvern
bro ur jsut a warrior hater
ember arrow
oh shit, lets call others lfr heroes without any substance to prove it
tiny spear
jesdus
ember arrow
implying theres somethign wrogn with it
tiny spear
there is
bleak wyvern
go play prot pally more your style
tiny spear
hahaha :p
bleak wyvern
xd
amber siren
bleak wyvern
warr tenk has too much clicking
tiny spear
the lfr hero is a clicker
lethal delta
c-c-clicking?!
teal jolt
my guild isnt taking any prot war for uldir! i dont get it, can someone pls give me some insight on this matter and hopefully to change thier minds or is war just bad atm?
amber siren
i click my goblin gliders out of my bag please don't bully me
bleak wyvern
coco ur a shill
teal jolt
lol thanks i guess
lethal delta
eh i wont be raid tanking regardless
my guild has like 5 people who want to tank suddenyl
so i was asking about m+s n that, i figure this time around ill be doing those more often
tiny spear
we always start out with like 7 tanks and then after 2 months we need to recruit a new one
bleak wyvern
youll cowards dont even prot
tiny spear
you need to take some english lessons
bleak wyvern
sorry that you dont get very old memes
tiny spear
youll?
bleak wyvern
ya...?
tight tree
I feel fine in mythics on 332 prot warr. I feel GREAT on 310 brewmaster. its not even close, subjectively. I spike like mad on warrior, and it is smooth on monk. So yeah, warriors are fine, but just fine, so far.
errant thorn
Quit trying to start shit with each other for no reason
tight tree
We need some utility for dungeons for sure, and more haste for SB uptime.
lyric furnace
you should read your talents if youre missing utility
teal jolt
ty finnally some dencent answers
tight tree
I know my class fine. And comm shout saved us several times.
It is not bad as i said. It is fine 😉
dreamy quarry
How's brewmaster AoE burst?
lyric furnace
safeguarding your friends will fix all your problems
twin hazel
brew doesnt have burst its sustained aoe but its good
but you should ask that in the actual monk disc
dreamy quarry
Well since the discussion was about relative power between prot and BM, I think prot's quite decent damage is relevant.
tight tree
I hate gaps in shield block. I feel that demo shout is not enough mitigation to cover them. You can use last stand+bolster as well but then you wont have it for ohshit moment. As someone said, no safety net. Fully proactive, no fuckups required. Cannot run on autipilot 😉
twin hazel
last stand is also for those gaps
tight tree
Yeah, prot DPS is nuts. My DPSers got offended actually 🤣
lyric furnace
and ip, since youre drowning in rage with proper use of your skills
kind tinsel
and we all know how fun it is to press ip
weary notch
you're not supposed to have 100% SB uptime. That would be pointless. No class has 100% AM uptime aside from monk (kinda), but stagger is a mechanic that needs a huge rework, as blizz has admitted themselves
tight tree
Dont get me wrong, i am not attacking prot. its my main, i love it. but some things i dislike. Subjective opinion.
twin hazel
monks do
tiny spear
druid?
weary notch
I just said monks do
twin hazel
Im the same way Braggha. Warrior is my main, its always gonna be the one i have the most fun with. It could be funner with the right changes though and I hope they can make them.
twin hazel
until then ill play all my tanks as well because I jsut love tanking in general too
tight tree
It is difference in feeling. on monk everything goes in smooth, isb always up, i am not shitting myself. On warr, its oh big damage inc, better IP – shit GCD - spiked, every time you forget to cast it preemptively. I forget. Just feel clunky.
lethal delta
ditto, it just makes me sad when i find / enjoy another tank more idie lol
tight tree
Kinda like i fight with my own class mechanics instead of fighting actual mobs/boss mechanics
dreamy quarry
@tight tree that's when you just ask your healer if he's having fun back there. 😄
lethal delta
well i mean, we run off rage. we're always wrestling with ourselves
weary notch
100% SB uptime / more haste is not the right change. What's the use of having mitigation up all the time? Where is the skill in that? Monk has 100%ish percent uptime on moderate DR, and very low percent uptime on high DR
twin hazel
i feel like what sloot said recently on his stream is great. Blizz put everything on GCD to make it seem more skillful to survive. But when youre dying because you cant press a button thats not skill
thats the game working against you
weary notch
we have good percent uptime on high DR
tight tree
@weary notch I would agree if i was not siking like mad when i dont have SB up, and actually have LS as oh shit button instead of gap cover.
spiking*
Maybe i am bad warrior 🤔
lyric furnace
feels like most ppl are just spoiled by legion ip pooling
tight tree
@twin hazel Exactly
weary notch
I'm not sure what you're doing, but I'm not spiking like mad without SB up. I take more damage, sure, but it's not like monk without ISB up
twin hazel
well i still use last stand as an oh shit, i just use it as an oh shit when i dont have shield block coverage
tight tree
Not like monk indeed
twin hazel
like oh shit im low health SB is down
tiny spear
YOu cant possibly be spoiled by anything related to IP ever
twin hazel
lets pop LS
tight tree
But pretty scary on mythic dungeons (some trash and bosses abilities)
But then again, healers did not adjust yet
twin hazel
i dont pop LS when shield block is down i pop it when i need it and shield block is down
ember arrow
@tiny spear having 5-8 mil more hp at all times isnt being spoiled?
because thats what IP waas
tight tree
Every big pull in mythic, if i dont have SB or LS up i am ded pretty much unless i kite
tiny spear
IP is boring bad ability. Thats just what it is
twin hazel
i think they nerfed it too many ways. no longer 95% dr, fewer stack, and GCD
they probly could have just not done one of those
and it would be fine
lyric furnace
not anymore Michael/Zabu
weary notch
also, M+ comes out with raids. Raids come with class tuning. I'd really like to know which M+ key level you're currently having trouble with on warrior, or which uldir boss you can't beat. Feel free to show logs
tiny spear
its even more bad now tbh
ember arrow
it was amazing in legion
tiny spear
the only reason its not gone is that blizzard went out of time replacing it
ember arrow
now it a rage dump
tiny spear
it was good, but its still a boring/shitty ability
ember arrow
what does it matter its boring
lethal delta
true, i remember it being gone in early beta
lethal delta
isb?
lyric furnace
anger management makes protwarrs so so smooth, i dont understand all the fuzz about prots atm
ember arrow
boring /shitty is subjective
lethal delta
i do LOVE AM on prot though.. my abilities are up so often to cycle through
weary notch
there's no skill to monk. It's boring as hell
lyric furnace
go booming voice, anger management and use safeguard properly and oyull have the time of your life
ember arrow
in progression gameplay is irrelevant, as long as its strong
lyric furnace
no way around it
tiny spear
yeap, but not everything is about progression
ember arrow
but only on progression is tank choice a matter of debate
tiny spear
no its not. Its a matter of debate on all levels of gameplay
ember arrow
noone is gonna say u must play a bear for pet battles
or transmog runs
or lfr
or heroics
weary notch
zabu is a troll. Blocked. He was just in here talking about how useless prot war was for progression and now says not everything is about progression
tiny spear
what the fuck 😛
dreamy quarry
There isn't any content out yet where prot as a spec struggles.
tiny spear
salty kid hahaha. No its obvious that people on different levels talk about this aswell. Prople doing both heroic raiding and normal raiding.
tiny spear
it matters for them what they play? sure. Thats why people have preferences on all levels of play
tiny spear
we where talking about gameplay not objective advantages
broken kite
i dont think anyone is changing anyone else's mind about anything
tiny spear
yeah
ember arrow
gameplay is subjective
its not what you base what tanks to pick on if looking at relevant content
any tank player should have multiple tanks ready to capitalize on strengths regardless
tiny spear
thats.... elitist 😛
tiny spear
its not normal to have multiple tanks ready to switch to no
ember arrow
if u wanna talk progress, you must have multiple tanks ready to make it easier for raid/urself
it is definitely normal
tiny spear
and yes, i do mythic raiding(not progression raiding) and iusually only have 1 tank at max level
twin hazel
Multiple tanks to switch to is more of a high mythic raider kinda thing.
twin hazel
most people dont have that kidna time
twin hazel
most peopel dont enjoy playing multiple tanks
ember arrow
so you play a dk then?
ember arrow
so how do you know how dk feels in dungeons, or how they gonna be in m+
or any other tank
tiny spear
i read, i watch and i've played them all before
ember arrow
you jsut said you have 1 tank
tiny spear
i said i have one at max level
ember arrow
if u didnt do max level content, then its same as if u didnt do much at allon them
weary notch
lev, he's a troll. Don't waste your time
ember arrow
killing questmobs/low level dungeons inst equivalent to m+ / raiding
tiny spear
i had them at max level before, but the new max level is 110
not sure how to make myself much clearer tbh
tiny spear
120 y 😃
amber siren
if you haven't played prot at 120 you don't have an opinion on it's viability
end of story
ember arrow
wat
tight tree
I limit myself to 1 main and 1 alt, no time for more. And yes, subjective, but gameplay > absolute effectiveness. I can make sacrifice for progress and play tank i enjoy less, but i draw a line on druids. That shit is way too boring.
tiny spear
these days its the same with me basicly
amber siren
which is fine and dandy but saying 'my warrior is worse than dk' when you have experience with only one of those tanks at 120 is
questionable
tight tree
So far, i enjoy warrior and monk more than others, so we gucci on that front 😃
Not top mythic progression guild obv
tiny spear
you are taking what i said out of context rybuie
not sure if you walked in the middle of the convo though so its ok
ember arrow
yo usaid warr isnt at 120
tight tree
But enough shitting around. What was your fav dungeon, warriors? I feel like King's rest have amazing aestethics. Also kinda loved pirate swag in Freehold.
ember arrow
if u played warr at 110, thats not the same as its now
amber siren
you said you have one tank max level? so it's either your warrior or your dk that's maxed?
tiny spear
and thats my warrior, my main this expansion is a warlock
amber siren
how is what i said out of context then
tiny spear
because i didnt say dk wass stronger hten warrior
amber siren
you spent like 30 minutes saying self healing was the end all of everything?
and listed dk as an example
tiny spear
i said tank choice matters on different levels of gameplay. ANd that DK's as an example is really strong in lower difficulty content that you overgear
amber siren
wowie i regret coming back into this conversation
actually the dumbest thing i've read
lyric furnace
cant you decide on one thing michael?
tiny spear
sure, anything particulary?
i'm just answering people talking to me tbh
people who have trouble remembering and such 😃
oh and also taking insults form people who ran out of arguments 😛
ember arrow
who was insulting you?
tiny spear
"actually the dumbest thing i've read" 😃
cinder nova
I'll be the first one to point out your points are mostly speculative based on your own anecdotal evidence.
tiny spear
ofc it is 😃
cinder nova
Feelcrafty is a useless endeavor.
tiny spear
nothing feelcrafty about it. Its how its been in the past. Based on that and how much self sustain dk's have atm. I'd say nothing has changed
cinder nova
Tanks at low and even medium level play right now are largely irrelevant and can do everything with comparable levels of competence.
Self-sustain doesn't really play into the equation.
Also sustain isn't necessarily what you should be observing in respect to tank capability.
EHP is.
tiny spear
if you are capable of sustaining yourself completely because you overgear the content then EHP doesnt matter
cinder nova
Except when it does.
Because if your EHP is enough that you can just tolerate the damage of an encounter, even if you can't heal yourself.
tiny spear
but then you arent capable of doing it 😃
yeah but being able to do it all yourself free's up the healing needed for you
cinder nova
Michael, you're arguing a point based off overgearing dated content to judge tank viability.
I shouldn't have to overstate how bizarre and poor a metric that is to judge a spec by.
tiny spear
no i am argueing based on what people who dont clear content in 3 weeks do. Because thats how the discussion started
raven kernel
Nothing has changed? Guess the whole block and armor redesign is nothing
cinder nova
@raven kernel Block has changed.
Block Rating is back, but now it's just called Block.
More Block = more blocked damage by DR %
Crit block doubles that % value
raven kernel
nothing feelcrafty about it. Its how its been in the past. Based on that and how much self sustain dk's have atm. I'd say nothing has changed
Quotes
cinder nova
People who are 3 weeks behind content progression can capably play any tank class and progress fine.
cinder nova
The first attempts on M Argus were done by a prot warrior.
And DKs haven't been king in a while.
Bears are and were in terms of safe raid progression.
raven kernel
DHs out heal dks
cinder nova
???
tiny spear
bears definitely arent anymore
cinder nova
Michael, what do you have to base your argument on?
lyric furnace
michael probably only played deathstrike and bases all this stuff on that
tiny spear
WHAT lol nop
quartz moon
Its a Dk discord or warrior ?
tiny spear
oh cmon mnstrr
tiny spear
swole patrol in regards to what
ember arrow
dk scales with gear while dh doesnt
raven kernel
St healing lol
cinder nova
In regards to literally any of your claims.
tiny spear
i already told you my reasoning?
you have to be more specific if you want to counter something
cinder nova
You are saying what you think is true.
You need to show something that supports the veracity of your claims.
tiny spear
and providing reasoning
cinder nova
You're missing half the equation.
tiny spear
so if you want to hear it again, you have to tell me what you want to know
cinder nova
But we're all saying its not reasonable.
Because it isn't.
DKs haven't been king for several tiers now.
Hell, warriors outheal DKs on the meter in ATB.
So it just seems like a lot of pointless bloviating to make a point that doesn't really make a difference.
tiny spear
based on the changes we have, dk's are most definitely kings of self healing
i mean all evidence points at that
ivory nacelle
can shields titanforge?
lyric furnace
Dks consist of spamming death strike
cinder nova
Yeah I think they can, Sceptre.
amber siren
self healing doesn't equal viable
lyric furnace
thats basicly all they got
cinder nova
DH had tons of self-healing and they got blown up in most raids.
tiny spear
thats beside the point atm, we are talking who is the king of self healing atm
cinder nova
They had all that healing and nothing to smooth themselves.
amber siren
no, your point was that warriors are weaker in raids because they lacked self healing
tiny spear
yep i'm not saying(and have not at any point) that dk's or any healer tank for that matter is king of progression raiding
no, rybie. Stop lying
cinder nova
And that DKs were king for outgeared content.
tiny spear
you are literally making up stuff now
cinder nova
When at that point every tank can perform exceptionally to the point of irrelevance.
tiny spear
i've said dk's where very good for out gearing content, especially heroic and normal raids
cinder nova
But that's also not true?
You're going to bring healers to heal the raid regardless of how much your tank can self-heal.
At that point your better bringing high DPS tanks.
tiny spear
and that means they can take their focus off the tank completely
cinder nova
amber siren
to do what? dps a little more?
hot locust
Ok but even if DKs are better against outscaled content who cares about content that you outgear or is irrelevant?
amber siren
@hot locust we've said that already, he cares apparently
hot locust
🤔
tiny spear
the discussion started because we where talking about tank choice having merrit in different levels of content. Specificly when people arent lcearing it in three weeks
and rybie its getting funny how much stuff you are just making up at this point 😛
cinder nova
He's not arguing fun he's arguing what is best in... outgeared content.
raven kernel
Play whatever the fuck tank u want
cinder nova
???
amber siren
you can keep saying i'm making things up but literally every single person is saying your wrong 🤷
raven kernel
Rofl
cinder nova
Aren't they?
lyric furnace
learning resistance apparently isnt
cinder nova
Mnstrr what do you know you ain't telling us.
tiny spear
nah you are aking things out of context all the time rybie
dreamy quarry
Hard to say wether he's right or wrong when he hasn't even pieced together a coherent opinion
tiny spear
@dreamy quarry oooooooh that hurt
amber siren
are we done
tiny spear
are you?
raven kernel
So guilds that can't get aotc shouldn't use warrior tanks cos they need to be healed doing the previous tier's raid
Dks only
You heard it here first guys
amber siren
what does that even mean? every warrior here has refuted your 'reasonable' speculation
tiny spear
@raven kernel Thats really not what i said, but keep going with the hyperboles there 😛
hot locust
Lets say hypothetically that outgearing content gave other tanks a significant advantage over others. I'd still rather the player in question play what he is most comfortable on week-in and week-out. That would do much more for the raid overall (especially at that level) than trying to force them onto a tank they don't know as well.
tight tree
Outgearing content making any tank advantage irrelevant anyway
tiny spear
to be perfectly honest, and yes this is a subjective opinion, getting comfortable on a different tank when you already know the content from a tank pov doesnt really take THAT much practise. Especially if we are talking non mythic content
tight tree
There is fun in soloing last percent on bosses on DK when everyone else died. But that is hardly an argument?
tiny spear
i mean that wasnt really my scenario but i get your point
raven kernel
Still don't see any logic in tank choice mattering when you AREN'T clearing shit in 3 weeks
tight tree
Some classes just easier/better at compensating certain teams weaknesses.
tiny spear
not sure what you mean Rei
for those people who dont do that content or for people ingeneral
tulip steeple
Paladins got shield and we got two handed axe on todays emmisary?
merry cave
Tank choice matters to some extent it's silly to admit otherwise. A decent player can aotc/ce with anything assuming balance is ok (which it is atm). Where class choice matters if those players who are below average and then a class that is superior/easy to play like legion bear can actually make a big difference to a raid at a non-top 100 level
tight tree
You may not clear in 3 weeks, but that does not mean that it would not be easier to progress on some classes than on others.
tiny spear
pretty much
merry cave
Sure you can do it on a harder punishing class, but those not as skilled people will benefit from the easier choice
amber siren
that's not talking about class balance, that's talking about player ability
tiny spear
no
merry cave
I mean its both
tiny spear
thats literally class balance
tight tree
@merry cave Exactly. I was bear in legion because raid was struggling and i wanted to easy the pressure for everyone.
junior igloo
DKs are stronger on farm when they overgear content and struggle more during progression when they undergear it.
That comes from having your tanking model built around self-healing. It's been the case every expansion since active mitigation became a thing. Why is that suddenly a controversial topic?
raven kernel
The worse prog your guild is, the less of a difference tank choice will make compared to getting better players or existing players getting good
tiny spear
i dont know meiffert, thats basicly just been my point the entire time
hot locust
🤔
tight tree
It is just finding balance between effective for your team/fun for you to play.
raven kernel
Ask world 1000 guild to use world first raid comp, they still gonna wipe 50 times
merry cave
That's also true Rei, but on the same not if you can't or don't want to replace people having those who aren't as mechanically gifted play an easier class will get better results
raven kernel
That's not the discussion here though
amber siren
If a class can do 7k dps but it's hard to play but someone else will do 8kdps with an easy class, and the person on the hard class does 5k it doesn't mean that 'class balance' is broken, that person just isn't good
you can't argue if someone is good if it's balanced or not
dreamy quarry
Then there's the fact that the strongest tank spec can vary encounter to encounter.
tiny spear
its not like DK is especially hard to play compared to the others though
imo reactive is easier then active
sick sentinel
you're talking like prot is hard ;_; my mentally challenged like playing will not be good enough for heroic raiding ? 😫
tiny spear
"harder"
amber siren
that was my point though? war is a bit harder than other tanks to play but if someone fucks it up it doesn't mean the harder class isn't viabler
that's outside the discussion
tiny spear
i agree
raven kernel
At low prog raiding, most of your wipes are to bad players, not bad classes
tiny spear
you will be having to deal with that the entire progress though
look at it as the bosses just being extra hard so you have to compensate where you can
junior igloo
I'm not sure what your point is, Rei.
Top guilds have better comp, so I guess all of their wipes are caused by bad players then? 😃
raven kernel
At low levels of raiding you just recruit good players regardless of class, if you wanna be anal about brew master or gtfo and then no brew applies but you turned down 4.decent warriors, then you're losing out
merry cave
That's really not the point though is it
tiny spear
right
raven kernel
Putting so much emphasis on class comp when you're a low prog guild is just self comfort for being bad
merry cave
I'm not sure if you've ever run a lower end guild but having good players rock up doesn't happen often
junior igloo
Well, I have to agree that having a decent warrior is better than having no tank at all 🤷
raven kernel
Morg, exactly
So you take any decent app you get
Instead of tunneling on class choice
tiny spear
but the discussion was about weather tank choice made a difference. Not if it was the end all be all
raven kernel
It makes a miniscule difference
Does race matter in wow? Yes but what's the answer whenever someone asks? Play whatever you want
tiny spear
i mean i'd argue it mattes more then race choice. But its to early to sday how much its gonna matter
tight tree
My guild just straight told me: play what you enjoy, you will be better tank if you love your class. We are not top prog.
smoky wave
I think the issue is confounding factors. Tank choice may make a difference, but unless you're at bleeding edge content it'll likely be masked by player ability, healers competence, gear levels throughout the raid and dps not standing in fires.
junior igloo
When you are generally recruiting for a guild that needs more players, class of applicants is a pretty minor concern compared to other considerations.
There are some situations when you recruit a specific class, but they are not that common.
That being said, I thought the discussion was about general class balance rather than recruitment
tiny spear
it was 😃
raven kernel
It matters but at low prog guilds it should really be the least of your concerns
merry cave
You're looking at it from only one pov and not the whole picture tbh
smoky wave
(I missed the start of the discussion, just picking up on what Rei was trying to get at)
merry cave
In an ideal situation of infinite recruitment
tiny spear
from my pov, as someone who is most likely only going to be doing heroic raiding for a change, the choice is between a dk or prot warrior alt. So i guess the situation mostly applies to me
uneven violet
Guys, whats a good addon to log the encounters and your own skill-usage? i fear my CD and IP usage is suboptimal...
raven kernel
Exorsus raid tools will help you log encounters automatically
junior igloo
The level of your guild and class balance are somewhat independent issues.
I disagree that lower level guilds aren't affected.
Some class stacking is often made irrelevant through nerfs, that much is true.
But on the other hand, if a class is "better" because it is easier or less punishing for mistakes, you could argue that weaker players benefit even more (because they would make more mistakes on the "hard" class).
uneven violet
thx Rei, will do
tiny spear
thats a much better way of putting it then i've been able to
uneven violet
coming from guardian drood protwarrior is fealing hardmode X_x
raven kernel
I fall asleep on guardian tho
This is just me but I actually appreciate some degree of complexity on tanks
Cos when you're doing the 30th pull on a difficult boss
If I'm playing bear I'll be so bored
tiny spear
i dont think there is any argument against bear tanks being a borefest
hot locust
Try 200+ :^)
sick sentinel
only 30th?
uneven violet
easy rotation on bear let me focus more on surroundings in 5mans...on my new protwarrior im to busy getting my rotation/CDs rigth X_x
practise makes perfect...i hop X_x
hot locust
You'll get it down @uneven violet just takes time.
raven kernel
Practice gets you better at anything
New prot does need some practice
You'll find the flow after a while
uneven violet
yeah i hope
the pinned guide was a good start
whats the best dungeon for upgrading shield?
smoky wave
Rezan iirc
raven kernel
Auction house XD
uneven violet
got a ilvl 300 blue for cheap of AH...but the 350 BoEs are way to expensive#
uneven violet
nice
smoky wave
I'm super tempted by the shield. Made a fortune at launch from blacksmithing, dumped a load into tokens so everything now is free to spend.
uneven violet
are there any charts with mitigation numbers on 300/325/350 shields?
tiny sphinx
i did kinda miss the block value stat, a shame it doesn't increase shield slam damage like it used to tho
rain bridge
Wait there's a BoE shield ? Didn't see one posted yet on my server, only 310 crafted ones
rustic urchin
what stats should i focus on? haste?
severe steeple
rustic urchin
❤
raven kernel
Ya there's a 350 boe shield
That is a 2.piece set with a boe boots
Set bonus is a little more block value
untold adder
i have a 350 shield, it has 4075 block, just for reference.
potent lynx
oswain is 210k on my server, it's tempting 🤔
untold adder
i got it yesterday, 350k tho
but i had done all mythics
and still had a 275 shield
enough is enough ..
severe steeple
300 ilvl shield is 2800 block and 340 is 3800 O_O
vagrant cape
It's still a linear increase thanks to dr though
untold adder
i block ~41% from m+0 dungeons with 4075 block
fossil spindle
I love pinned messages. Problem with aggro or dps? Git gud.
untold adder
i know everyone up till patch said prot was underwhelming
and i know raids arent out yet, but i have had 0 problems with mythics this first week
severe steeple
well they are not super challenging content 😄
what ppl say is like warr will struggle at +17 keys while monks for example will be ok at +19
severe steeple
thats why ppl also say that this does not apply to 95% of the player base
untold adder
ye oaky
severe steeple
😄
untold adder
going in to this xpac, everyone not on this single discord was kinda "shaming" people picking prot as main
fossil spindle
Everything is a struggle if you cant play it.
twin hazel
been shamed of playing prot since after EN
severe steeple
ppl overreact
onyx vessel
problem is too many bad warrior tanks all im hearing from my roommate is how bad prot warrior is its like coolstorybro still gonna play it
noobs playing prot warrior id exept
only cuz our magic damage is kinda poor
reduction*
twin hazel
everyones is
raven kernel
Nothing like pulling 2 packs and out dpsing the dps
fossil spindle
"Omg, i want to play a warrior. So big and tough!" 5min later "WHY IS THIS SO HARD!?"
untold adder
its not too bad
fossil spindle
When you do 20k on adds as prot, id say its more then decent.
onyx vessel
prot pally and monk has solid mitgation of magic damage
thru blocking and stagger
ignore pain is weak rn
untold adder
spell reflect and ignore pain still gives us SOME
and ignore pain will get buffed
im sure at some point
fossil spindle
We got shouts
raven kernel
Warrior is still upper tier of tanks vs magic
onyx vessel
all it needs is removed from gcd
arctic sun
they need to take it off the gcd
onyx vessel
we are hard gcd locked
fossil spindle
Ip depends on gear. Mine is 40k at max now. Wont call it weak.
junior igloo
Paladins probably beat us in magic mitigation (by a slight margin), but monks don't.
Stagger doesn't reduce damage and eve if you only care about smoothing it's still super weak.
onyx vessel
mines at 31k cap
at 313
LUL
i know warrior is barely worse then any other tank if played good
junior igloo
We have Spell Reflect, we have Anger Management which means much more frequent cooldowns compared to other classes - and those work just fine against all types of damage including magic (Demo Shout, Last Stand, Shield Wall), as well as Ignore Pain as weak as it is, at least it works against magic
onyx vessel
but ppl like use it to call us weak yet the bad warriors they getting are the reason
raven kernel
Doesn't matter what the general public think
onyx vessel
op
raven kernel
As long as your bros know you're strong af
umbral epoch
you guys got any stat prio info for prot? (at work, can't open google docs)
junior igloo
I mean, maybe we are weak numbers wise atm (I'm honestly not sure, there is no challenging content available yet), but picking a class based on pre-expansion tuning is really weird.
untold adder
Str > haste > vers=mast > crit
fossil spindle
Haste my dude
onyx vessel
haste >vers = m,astery >crit
junior igloo
There will be more balancing before mythic Uldir opens and more later
umbral epoch
k cool thx
fossil spindle
Smorholm got it right
umbral epoch
kinda figured it would be that, but wanted to double check
umbral epoch
and what talents are you guys running for mythics (and what do you expect for raiding?)
junior igloo
Toolkit wise I think we are in decent spot, a lot of cooldowns, mobility, raid buff, raid defensive cooldown.
Seems pretty good, we don't have 100 % Shield Block up-time, so we have to compensate with cooldowns, but at least we have the cooldowns to do that unlike paladins/DHs/DKs.
raven kernel
1 1 2 3 2 1 1
onyx vessel
same as the rest
untold adder
lol same rei
raven kernel
I mean
untold adder
only thing i may change for raids is crackling thunder i think
untold adder
its so good in dungeons
onyx vessel
LUL
untold adder
half the DHS
umbral epoch
so is devastator not a option yet (low haste levels im guessing?)
onyx vessel
booming voice is insane
twin hazel
Booming voice jsut too good
onyx vessel
40 rage more dmg
raven kernel
Booming voice and. Anger management are too good right now
untold adder
we need rage instantly to pull off some mitigation
onyx vessel
bolster is good too
umbral epoch
booming voice DOES read very strong indeed (i just hit 120 with it, so havent jumped into any dungeons, been focusing on my DH tank first)
untold adder
bolster is retarded good
twin hazel
devastator should have been baked in
umbral epoch
makes sense, thanks @untold adder and others
onyx vessel
fills gaps
amber siren
what mechanics are AM checks rn?
umbral epoch
that has to be a bug?
untold adder
plenty of bosses has AMchecks
twin hazel
probly not a bug just probly not something they thought about
umbral epoch
even mythic dungeon bosses have them, waycrest 3rd, ataldazor totem guy (off top of my head)
junior igloo
@amber siren
There are none
amber siren
@junior igloo Yeah I didn't think so? I haven't seen anyway
umbral epoch
last boss of kings rest has it aswell, his combo slash or whatever
amber siren
AM check isn't the same as wanting to have SB up
junior igloo
I think that DKs don't even have "official" AM ability any more
umbral epoch
@amber siren yeah you're right i havent seen any that if you dont have AM up, you get oneshot, but i have taken 50% hp hits without AM
untold adder
well, use shieldblock and dont get a debuff, i guess thats a AM check
twin hazel
yes exactly
things that require shield block up in order to prevent an effect that doesnt usually happen
with it up
amber siren
what bosses have those though?
twin hazel
Crush from Goliath says to use a defensive
smoky wave
Heh, thought they'd done away with them
junior igloo
AM checks isn't one-shot or taking a lot of damage.
There were abilities in Legion that did something extra when you didn't use a specific defensive (such as the boss healed or applied a debuff) that could be prevented with Shield Block (but nothing else).
Those aren't a thing any more in BfA afaik.
severe steeple
last boss on neltharions kicked you waaaaay far back
twin hazel
but you will see warning messages like before
severe steeple
if not for AM
twin hazel
they just dont have an effect
severe steeple
yeah the stuff that i noticed was just bnig chunks of dmg
gritty vine
if you use shield block when Aka'ali the Conqueror (The Council of Tribes) uses Debilitating Backhand you don't get the 200% physical damage taken increase and don't need to kite him in Kings' Rest
gritty vine
yeah, teseted it
untold adder
that fucking gay ass 200% dmg taken
severe steeple
dude that encounter...
tight tree
Will bolster count as SB?
untold adder
i used it cus stupid
junior igloo
Sure, there are things that you want to mitigate, that's obvious.
But you can use Bolster or Shield Wall or Demo Shout + external instead of Shield Block.
In Legion every tank had 1 ability that was considered "active mitigation" that was the only ability that worked against some mechanics, that shouldn't be the case any more.
merry cave
The 200% damage wasn't that bad on council fight, he went from doing no damage to normal boss damage
umbral epoch
its all about the totems and the dodging hammers that fight anyway
umbral epoch
or leaving explosive one for last -.-
untold adder
so much to acually do
umbral epoch
i think king's rest looks the best of all 10
i was kinda disappointed in siege of boralus, and found EXTREMELY easy, maybe YMMV
untold adder
i havent unlocked siege lol
raven kernel
Ya siege is easy
umbral epoch
literally i body pulled the first 2 bosses, and still one shot everything
untold adder
need 7k in to honored right?
umbral epoch
last boss is a joke
raven kernel
I hear horde are cucked by Kings rest
umbral epoch
7.5k yeah
untold adder
ye thats not happening anytime soon
kings rest is amazing
its acually hard (well, its week 1 but mechanics are punishing)
umbral epoch
@raven kernel kings rest is probably the hardest dungeon of all 10, but its not broken
red sluice
somebody got a list over the best traits?
umbral epoch
sethraliss is close, coz healers be dumb on last boss
amber siren
@red sluice check the pins
untold adder
brace for impact, deafening blast (dont stack this) and that bulwark thing ..
hard dirge
the second to last boss in sethraliss is shit pure
untold adder
sethraliss is shit with stupid dps as well
umbral epoch
@hard dirge the lightning guy? didnt find him that hard, just spread around him so everyone soaks some
and nuke nuke nuke
untold adder
ye the lightning was ez imo
jovial reef
yeah just kill him before he does the big aoe by soaking properly
hard dirge
took us 20 trys, really annoying. had no problem with the other 9 mythics
umbral epoch
@raven kernel lol huttball....good old days of playing assassin and pulling fools
tight tree
We had to 2 -heal lightning guy first time on mythic ;/
untold adder
you ahve to soak the beams BEFOR they become pillars
jovial reef
our druid tank soaked 30 stacks
hard dirge
i took so much normal tank damage and i didnt soak. dont know what i did wrong
untold adder
they only have to touch him for like 1 sec befor he is full
raven kernel
@umbral epoch still the best bg of any mmo
untold adder
if you dont soak he fucks up the entire grp
umbral epoch
BY FAR @raven kernel, by far, was SO much fun
tight tree
Huttball was awesome
umbral epoch
too bad they fucked that game up (sadface)
twin hazel
yah lightning boss is very unforgiving
umbral epoch
what are your thoughts on shrine of storms last boss? i wiped there alot coz dps'ers kept dying to stupid tentacles....
merry cave
The only thing wrong with that dungeon is the enormous amount of trash
Or at least it felt like a lot
twin hazel
Shrine of the storm is aids with all of its trash
hard dirge
we did shrine of storms last boss with crap gear. like ~300. always wiped at 30%. went in again a few days later with 320-330 and it was doable after two trys
twin hazel
maybe its just from me running it on heroic with shitty dps though
merry cave
Storm and king's both just felt like days and days of trash with no fucking check points
twin hazel
yah
merry cave
Actually I think it's the check points that is worse than the trash
raven kernel
Shrine last boss gets wayyyyyy easier with gear
umbral epoch
@twin hazel nah i'd agree, that ritualist pack, if ppl dont chain interrupt is quickly a wipefest
jade tartan
@umbral epoch once you get your eyes used to them, its pretty good
umbral epoch
I didnt have any issues, but my dps'ers were playing with monitor off that day.....i even siad "fuck it, i'll dps", went in took zero dmg....was like WTF DUDES?!
hard dirge
those guys with void seed are annoying. especially if those two adds arent cc'd
raven kernel
Ya ritualist wipes groups if they can't kick
umbral epoch
no more arcane torrent to bail us out.....feelsbad only having 1 interrupt these days
raven kernel
Feelsallianceman
tight tree
Shrine last boss easy after people l2 dodge tentacles. Have to kite boss around a bit to avoid adds maybe.
hard dirge
i think exploding adds are bit of overkill. but its doable
untold adder
ye shrine has two important things..
junior igloo
The tentacle slams have very subtle visual, you kinda assume it's just random graphic swirls from being in some nightmare.
Not surprised people get hit a couple times before they figure it out
untold adder
ignore adds and kite boss, and in Sunken city phase, focus 1 leecher at a time (DPS=
tight tree
New dungeons req way more interrupt and dispel knowledge and discipline. Cnt wing it anymore, unless we outgear it
untold adder
yes its purple visual in all-purple area
My pal plays holy priest, and its really fucking crazy how much he can do with mass dispell now..
junior igloo
Belf even more insane than before 😄
umbral epoch
damn, ppl werent focusing 1 leecher at a time.....yeah that one's a given
untold adder
if you dont they hurt like shit
umbral epoch
dispel/purge is awesome now, also soothe from druids cleans ALOT of enrages
untold adder
the more health they have lost, the more they hurt when they pull through
so just ignore 1 (it wont dmg anything when the leech goes through) and kill the other (with interrupts ofc)
Hunters also have soothe
btw
umbral epoch
also a good trick is to wait for the 2nd one to finish his cast before moving in
that way you dont get smacked while moving in, chances are you're not getting healed yet at that point
junior igloo
But soothe is a druid ability 😡
untold adder
Im sorry
umbral epoch
hunters have tranq shot 😄
untold adder
i havent seen a single hunter utilize it
but they have it lel
also, honestly
how OP is it to bring a rogue to tol'dagor?
literally skip ½ the trash
junior igloo
Well at least they have taunt on pet
umbral epoch
YES.....for m+ i see that as a big plus
hard dirge
it was funny realising there is friendly fire in myhtic tol dagor
untold adder
yes.. lol
umbral epoch
the meta might shift quite a bit
untold adder
it just seems OP that one calss (for m+) can make SUCH a big difference
makes the boss EZ as shit and skip trash
seems OP
hard dirge
but it makes for funny strats kill a lot of trash quickly with those cannons
umbral epoch
also since alot of hard aoe cc is gone, rogue stun locks will be very useful
junior igloo
You can run to boss, die and res in some dungeons (we did entire motherlode without killing any trash mobs I think 😄 )
But ofc. that's just for regular mythics, in m+ you have trash percentage to worry about, so it remains to be seen how much you can skip
untold adder
the good ol' soulstone-skip lol
umbral epoch
yeah @sick sentinel there's a strat in freehold that you can skip almost all trash between 2nd and 3rd boss, but i dont see it working for M+
umbral epoch
next week i'm gonna try pulling all that trash in motherlode, that first alley....see what happens 😄
hard dirge
i think the trash before first freehold boss is better skipped. the spit from the bird is really annoying and its a lot of trash. we skip it with rogue
last hull
the bird? it's the fucking threat-killing-backhanding cunts that ruin the first packs
hate it
umbral epoch
"oh wait, i need to drink" spits on it.....fffffffuck
untold adder
OH YES WHAT IS THAT ABOUT
umbral epoch
yeah and u cant avoid that shit rly
untold adder
getting tossed around like a ragdoll with agro reset
umbral epoch
when you're tanking 2
untold adder
Thank mr. blizzard
hard dirge
as long as its only one enforcer i can always taunt it back. but the throw feels so random. sometimes it throws me on the healer, and sometimes totally random
umbral epoch
gets tossed > fucker oneshots priest > GG
untold adder
yes.. christ..
umbral epoch
so easy to ninja pull with that toss too
last hull
watch blizzard make killing 3 of those a requirement for finishing mythic+ freehold
umbral epoch
wouldnt shock me
hard dirge
they already are. the first boss doesnt spawn if you dont kill the pack with the enforcer
umbral epoch
i cant help but think they made some of the respawns at beginning to dungeon to fuck ppl's timers on M+
underrot for example....dafuq
umbral epoch
healer: "uh i wasnt ready"
uncut juniper
Now to sth really important, It bothers me since the Release of BfA: Is it possible to transmog my shield to a legion artefact while having a different transmog on the mainhand? I dont find a solution to the problem that i am only able to choose artefact skins on the mainhand tab which changes the appearence of both mainhand AND shield as an inseperable pair... :/
umbral epoch
i cant understand why they did that
hard dirge
its the same with every dual wield skin
untold adder
its your sword that determins the shields mog when using artifact skins
umbral epoch
and the "cant transmog other specs" either....fucking stupid imo
last hull
@untold adder all you can do is get initial aggro and get out of there
uncut juniper
why dont they add another option to the offhand aswell so i can choose seperately
untold adder
like a little bitch