If were wrong whoever designed that sheep needs sacked
#protection
midnight yacht
west vigil
has to be a joke
obviously it's an open hand
an open hand or a bundle of shish kebab on fire
midnight yacht
Haha
tight tree
strange 8-legged creature on fire
west vigil
@wild cosmos is this enough
tight tree
Should be Paul Atreides with hand in a box imo! 🤔
west pelican
amber siren
I mean for a serious answer it's just a clenched fist isn't it?
As for azerite traits no one knows yet, they're being adjusted every day
last hull
it's a hand crushing a burning turtle
bleak sierra
Cmon Dyldogen how is that a giraffe 🤦 Clearly a sheep.
wild cosmos
@grand viper is either blind or he was trolling me 🤦
I think it is inspired by the following picture
fossil spindle
Protection Warrior community rewiev live on Wowhead
amber siren
Do I even want to read it
hot locust
Go nuts 😄
fossil spindle
Its all we already know tbh. And its more like big cheese guys review it since half of the people dont want to be near a prot warrior but the review is on point.
I see you @hot locust 😄
hot locust
no bully 😡
undone sun
no need to post it everywhere
fossil spindle
Papa Edd dislikes
hot locust
I'm just sad the spec that has been high apm for... what 12 years now? is changing into a much slower paced spec.
Still enjoy playing it, and will definitely still be raiding on it for all of BFA though.
fossil spindle
IP off GCD and it would be great
hot locust
¯_(ツ)_/¯
I't ain't gonna happen.
I'd love it just as much as everyone else.
But I've given up.
waxen cradle
Sadly at least for now it will not happen and its unlikely it will happen in 8.1
fossil spindle
Boy can dream tho.
fossil spindle
When you check top 100M+ runs and see only ONE warrior and ONE monk and everyone else is DH/DK and few paladins, you should realize there is a problem. Just saying.
hot locust
The problem isn't tankiness or damage though.
It really is about the types of utility provided by the classes.
waxen cradle
I for one would like some acknowledgement from Blizzard as to why they are so dead set on so hard GCD boning us by keeping IP on the GCD
hot locust
Prot utility comes with annoying drawbacks that DH/DK don't have.
Because they are doing it to every tank (except monk lul)
fossil spindle
Blizzard: "EVERYTHING HAS TO BE ON GCD!!!"
waxen cradle
Let me put it this way I do not buy the whole it creates a interesting choice between survivability and dps because I so not see other tanks making that choice
hot locust
I mean, it certainly doesn't dip our dps below other tanks...
We're probably one of the highest to be honest.
fossil spindle
Top 1 as dps
waxen cradle
Does anyone but me feel like they were all setting around looking for a interesting change for BFA and the one neckbeard in the back yelled out umm guys how about we put everything on the GCD and THAT guy got a promotion as the higher ups praised him as a genius
I mean come on guys the GCD changes are for the "health of the game"
fossil spindle
Probably.
waxen cradle
I for one would like to have Ion the great one or as he thinks of himself explain what health of the game means
kind mirage
@weary notch they nerfed shield bash and dragon charge ???
junior igloo
First tier trinkets are always meh every expansion
hot locust
I mean the uldir trinket has a lower absorb value than phantasmal echo out of EN...
They're not just underwhelming
they are literally useless.
fossil spindle
So its not just me, great
waxen cradle
I noticed when looking around some of the best defensive trinkets will again come from dungeons within the first tier but this pretty much mirrors Legions first raid trinkets for the most part so I am hardly surprised
I mean look how long the Arcanocrystal was great for in Legion
waxen cradle
If my crystal ball of fortune telling is still not broken by BFA's end there will be great trinkets that come from the final raid of BFA just like Legion had
And second tier there will be some that are half useful and some that are just meh again
junior igloo
Arcanocrystal was incorrectly budgeted and some classes scaled too well with secondary stats.
For most it wasn't as good as people thought.
For tanks it was never even close to armor trinkets (such as DMD: Immortality, Carapace, Eye, Diima's)
fossil spindle
But it does make sense. Why would we get BiS trinkets to start off with? End gear is ment for the end.
waxen cradle
yep
fossil spindle
I loved when my DH otank said dont use Eye trinket with armor on it, its bad. 😄
It wasnt that bad, cmon...
waxen cradle
It has been a running theme for multiple expansions now so no one can really say truthfully how upset they are over first tier trinkets being meh
fossil spindle
If you look at Xalzaix's Veiled Eye, what you think? Uldir - Myhtrax the Unraveler
waxen cradle
I forget that ones affect your to have to remind me
Most seemed pretty meh so I went eh whatever
Or I can log in myself in 2 secs
fossil spindle
Falling below 40% grants an absorb shield that prevents 50% of incoming dmg. LFR 18k - Mythic 27k. I believe the numbers will adjust to gear as well.
waxen cradle
To me it feels very meh as it just seems like a weak IP absorb... I mean on live we can get our IP up to 20 fairly easily. Now granted our 4 piece is broken but still it just seems so meh for a 2 min cd
Of course I am comparing sub 120 numbers but unless the absorb scales significantly it does not seem that impressive
Plus it feels like a cheap Never Surrender copy of sorts as its benefit only kicks in when you fall below 40%
copper saddle
Hey all just a quick question I’ve played warrior now since legion and mainly ran arms I’m enjoying fury mainly because it looks bad ass, my question to you tanks is am I best levelling as a tank to learn the spec I’m from a small guild a few family and friends and the tanks trying a new char
autumn pendant
hot locust
If it's your first time playing a tank I don't see why not. It won't be the fastest the whole way but it'll help with familiarity down the road.
copper saddle
Yeah Im planning on levelling with my misses she can be the deeps haha thanks guys great help now to set up bar tender and weak auras for ANOTHER spec haha
😜
waxen cradle
@fossil spindle As for the trinket I have never liked trinkets that say fall to this % of health or less to gain the benefit
For me as is certainly unsurprising some of the more interesting trinkets will clearly come from dungeons and there are in my a few rather interesting ones that I may go after for multiples purposes or depending on the situation
This being for the first tier again obviously
tawdry plover
Syringe of bloodborn infirmity
smoky wave
what's the best way to track things like shield block uptime, and to work out what I'm doing wrong/how to be better?
sinful basin
I personally prefer using Details or warcraftlogs for that purpose
tawdry plover
Weak aura for tracking it tellmewhen
sinful basin
Details for on the spot review and logs for more in-depths one
tawdry plover
Or*
sinful basin
@tawdry plover you talking about overall uptime during a fight or just uptime after every SB cast ?
smoky wave
ok, great, thanks
smoky wave
I've got a WA to track when it's up, but I'm not sure how often I miss when it isn't
sinful basin
Details or logs then
smoky wave
thanks
sinful basin
they both got aura uptime metrics
smoky wave
just after ways to be better, love my prot warrior but been facerolling blood too long and I suck now
sinful basin
yeah, prot requires some precision in what you do)
smoky wave
aye, used to be good at it, but got rusty and it was easier at the time to play blood than it was to actually get good. regret it now! I'd ask for general advice but suspect I'm doing specific things wrong.
tawdry plover
Prot is fine, don't swich tank because someone said we are "bad"
smoky wave
this was a while ago when I was getting frustrated with getting M+ groups, as I say regret it now!
somber dragon
the pinned icy-veins guide is a very solid start
ember arrow
bdk required precise DS management and timing
in bfa its what seperates u from a corpse
in legion it mattered on high keys alot
grand viper
ember arrow
ok
wild cosmos
it's a sheep and laurel
west vigil
the fucking emoji says : leopard:
ember arrow
wtf is goin on?
west vigil
im just mad about you guys calling a humanoid hand a sheep or a giraffe or a leopard
:(
ember arrow
thats a hand?
smoky wave
I never saw it as anything other than a hand. Bit sad about that, literally any of the other suggestions are far more fun.
wild cosmos
that's the clearest sheep I've seen in my life 🐑
@smoky wave maybe it's because you hate animals, I m calling PETA
west vigil
i hate you
smoky wave
@wild cosmos 'sfine, they're too busy evacuating the tree.
wild cosmos
I mean that actually IS teldrassil burning
I can't believe that blizz hid a "hint" under our noses
and we never realised before it actually happened
wild cosmos
half the damage based on what? mitigated or unmitigated
and is it the same against AP and AD dmg?
ember arrow
AP, this isnt league xd
grand viper
ignore pain scales with mythic keystone difficult as far as i know
feral crypt
it does ignore half the damage but the pain remains 😩
wild cosmos
yikes
then why isn't it called ignore dmg
i guess that's divine shield
I m so confused
quiet arrow
grand viper
🤦
hollow oxide
Will prot warri ever be meta in m+?
kind urchin
Like a harpoon that pulls mobs to us.
echo ermine
No grip, ranged/aoe silence, long form CC or other real small group utility. Warrior works just fine as a tank. Super sturdy. Our issue is that M+ isn't usually where you have to worry about the tank being killed.
smoky wave
bring back the old heroic throw I say.
robust urchin
uneven mason
Ignore pain icon is a an upturned gauntlet holding PCP, cause you're about to just full on shove it in your eyeballs.
dark junco
xD
Kinda sad we don’t have a really nice utility
Would’ve loved anything that could give us an edge. Like an Odyn’s Stormforged spears that does nature damage and slow in an small aoe
Like replacing our heroic throw with that even
On a talent row =p
dusk locust
aoe stun and fear i get decent use out of
the fear is never really a problem as it gets broken by dps instantly in my experience
dark junco
(Aka replace never surrender)
dusk locust
not super familiar with the other tanks and what similar things they bring though apart from brewmaster's stun
dark junco
DKs sustain + kiting + grip
tight tree
VDH and Brew have sap, super useful with Infested
dark junco
^
tight tree
VDH and Blood = selfheals, grips
dark junco
True
tight tree
Brew = ring of peace (way better than shockwave and they have leg sweep + Dave allows grouping and tanking of mobs without risk for some time
DK = cres
BM have port which can be used to kite
rocky dove
So I didn't quite understand why I I'm struggling so much with rage. Then I read the Devastator tooltip and saw it no longer gives Rage. Which is bad news for me because I really struggle using Devastate properly
and in Legion, I loved the Devastator talent because it removed that complexity
cinder roost
You barely use Devastate, it's a filler
old zephyr
Just don't press devastate and you'll be fine
rocky dove
really? I thought I was using it wrong in Legion because I wasn't pressing it often
kind urchin
You can almost take it off your bar anyways and not make much of a difference.
junior igloo
Using Devastate vs. Devastator isn't really a big deal.
The benefit of Booming Voice is that you get a burst of 40 rage every 25 seconds (with Anger Management).
rocky dove
Doesn't it give rage and Shield Slam resets?
dusk locust
i push it when i can't think of anything better to do and i don't want to waste a gcd
lol
which isn't super often and basically never in aoe
rocky dove
or does it no longer give rage?
junior igloo
Obviously you should press Devastate if you have nothing else to do.
amber siren
It doesn't give rage directly
ember arrow
devastate never gave rage
junior igloo
But it's not the important part of the talent choice
ember arrow
devastator talent did
old zephyr
Booming voice is King for rage gen now
rocky dove
I see
strong forum
Rule of thumb is, press devastate if you can't use anything else
rocky dove
thought as much, because I already find myself pressing Revenge too often
old zephyr
Booming voice synergize with anger management for even more awesome
rocky dove
Guess I should get used to pressing Demo shout
never really used it all that much because I didn't really know when to use it
like, do you press it on CD or something? or save it for big hits?
old zephyr
On CD unless really needed for Def
tight tree
And dont press it when close to rage cap
old zephyr
But the CD is so short that it Will be back anyway
rocky dove
Okay, sounds reasonable
guess I'm really using the wrong talents going by the Wowhead guide
cinder roost
Don't forget to equip legendary belt if you aren't already
rocky dove
like, I'm using BSC, Indomitable
rocky dove
LIke, I simply prefer talents that always work at full potential regardless of any mistakes I make
dusk locust
i was taking indomitable for medivh on tyrannical 😛
junior igloo
What wowhead guide are you reading?
dusk locust
bolster not doing much for me there
rocky dove
Indomitable is simply a 10¨% HP boost that's always there
And Devastator turned a button I rarely pressed into something that enhanced my autoattacks
signal plover
But bolster covers a huge gap in SB uptime
strong forum
You literally took 2 of the worst talents you could've picked
signal plover
^
rocky dove
You're going to shout at me now, and I swear I'm not a troll, but I tend to have horrible uptime on Shield block
old zephyr
Warrior reward à playstill that gamble on not making mistakes
strong forum
Well then get training, prot is all about SB uptime
signal plover
Well...at least I didn't pick ravager
rocky dove
Like, I have no idea when to press it
strong forum
On CD unless you aren't taking melee
rocky dove
and I ended up mostly pushing IP during Legion
strong forum
you sure are something ;D
rocky dove
but I think that was fine during those days
signal plover
It was in LFR
rocky dove
because of how strong it was
dusk locust
you can squeak out extra effective uptime on shield block if you avoid blocking when the mob you're fighting is casting something
strong forum
What's the highest content you did nzall
signal plover
Look, the best thing u can do for yourself right now is read that guide and implement what it says
dusk locust
what's your ilvl
rocky dove
210 or so
strong forum
Or wow
rocky dove
well, not really to tanking in general, I've tanked quite a lot as a paladin between TBC and WoD and I play mostly Guardian on my druid
strong forum
It'd be best if you read up on the icy veins guide and familiarise yourself with the class
Since I'd say prot is now the hardest tank to play
rocky dove
but I didn't really play my warrior until 2 months before the prepatch after Ion kicked my Legion main in the balls
dusk locust
warrior's more challenging to get into but feels rewarding when you do it right
strong forum
Rule of thumb, use Demo shout and Shield block on CD, Devastate only when you have literally nothing else to use
rocky dove
I see
signal plover
If you underuse SB and aren't familiar with CD useage, your warrior will feel like paper in BFA.
rocky dove
i'll have to practice some then
signal plover
The guide covers all of that
strong forum
Use Last stand with bolster talent to close Shield block times
Downtimes*
And play in a proactive manner
Not reactive
But yeah just read the icy veins guide
weary notch
reactive is fine. I react to being dead by pressing shield block
strong forum
Accurate
dusk locust
solid sun
The only thing I find difficult to figure out is when I should use the second charge of SB. I've seen some people suggest you shouldn't use SB twice in a row (well, after the first SB application's buff is gone, popping the second charge), but that's typically what I've always done.
dusk locust
i let the first charge run out and hit shield block again right before the next melee, and if i'm going to be short on charges i last stand w/ bolster
unless it's something like last boss of nelth and i need shield block specifically to be available
rocky dove
When I tanked on my other classes, the reasoning behind that is that you should always bank at least 1 use of your AM skill in case the boss throws a hard ability at you
yeah, like that magma crash on Dargrul
ember arrow
magma crash u use SR
rocky dove
yeah, but planning ahead usually means making sure you got that one charge available
rocky dove
ah, okay
dusk locust
you can't SR all of them w/o pants
rocky dove
it was an example based on my other classes, where you want to use ironfur against it so you don't get knocked up
rocky dove
but since we got spell reflect...
ember arrow
and neither will exist in BFA
rocky dove
Really? there are no boss abilities that do something nasty unless you got AM up?
uneven mason
We haven't found any yet
ember arrow
there are abilities u must use AM to handle them
but no ones that punish u more if u dont
dusk locust
i can't think of one offhand in raid
ember arrow
or do extra things
rocky dove
Weird, I thought that was the entire reason they introduced AM in the first place: for a more active tanking style
ember arrow
???
uneven mason
Thankfully, they realized it would create quite the discrepancy since several tanks have ~100% uptime on AM while others have massive gaps, AM is now something you press because it makes you take less damage, not because it passes some "check"
ember arrow
AM checks dont make sense
uneven mason
AM was introduced to give you stuff that makes you take less damage
ember arrow
tanks dont use their AM in same way
uneven mason
Then some jackass got the grand idea to force checks for it on damaging abilities
ember arrow
the checks in NNL are useless for dks
uneven mason
even in situations where the AM made little sense (AM checks on magic hits +++)
rocky dove
I remember there were multiple bosses in Throne of Thunder etc where the tank strategy was "use AM on this or die"
uneven mason
But now our mitigation abilities are just that, stuff that helps us mitigate...
rocky dove
Like, Tortos, Ra'den, Horridon,...
uneven mason
Yes, none of that in BFA, so far.
rocky dove
no, it isn't current content, but AM was added in Cataclysm for such mechanics AFAIK
Like, Madness had the Impale spell on those tentacles that you needed to use your AM on
uneven mason
So, reading back up, Nzall it sounds like you were trying to play Protection as a reactionary tank, which Warriors are 100% Proactive with no reactionary abilities
ember arrow
AM checks dont exist in the way u desctribe them
if u dont use SB on argus scythe
then u die
but if u dont use it, u dont get additional debuffs
rocky dove
@uneven mason I think so
uneven mason
So being able to have ~90%+ uptime on some sort of mitigating ability is the strength of a warrior, so rolling Demo shout, Last Stand (with Bolster) and SB is crucial, you generally don't want to overlap many at a time though.
Like, you'll never press SB during Last Stand
as its completely pointless
cinder roost
But my Shield Slam damage tho
rocky dove
So you mean similar to how Protection Paladins with seraphim played during WoD?
ember arrow
dem comparisons though
rocky dove
During WoD, Paladins had this tactic where they had a 15 second cycle with Seraphim, Divine Protection and Shield of the Righteous which meant they had at least some kind of defensive up for 14 out of every 15 seconds
uneven mason
its delicious
grim prism
Does bolster mitigate back hits
solid sun
SB > SB > LS (Bolster) > SB > SB ?
cinder roost
Can we make a petition to have the SS buff during Bolster 😃
grim prism
Of course we can
We can even send it to Blizzard
I still will expect zero feedback or changes lol
cinder roost
Tank damage too scary
kind urchin
I'm sceert.
uneven mason
I'd say SB > LS > SB (you have a full charge CD during LS, it also benefits from the rage spent on the 2nd charge
IMO the SS buff should be shifted to "Blocking an attack, increases your next SS damage by 30%"
cinder roost
It would be awful against magic and when off tanking
uneven mason
I mean
junior igloo
SB (6s) -> Bolster (15s) ->
overcaps your SB charges
uneven mason
I suppose it depends on your haste.
junior igloo
Is this a situation where you start at full resources (such as pull)?
uneven mason
yeah just realized that it would only work in that situation with less than 15% haste
solid sun
It was me wondering about the 40ish seconds of uptime on mitigation
junior igloo
That wouldn't work even with 0 haste.
SB is "only" 18 seconds cooldown, SB into Bolster is 21 seconds
uneven mason
since burning both charges and then having Bolster up for the 15s with 30%~ haste you'd be almost halfway through gettinghte 2nd charge up
junior igloo
cooldown of SB starts when you use it, not when it expires
uneven mason
so it would be SB - SB - LS - SB (tiny break) SB
derp yeah
brb drinking coffee
(and taking my morning meth)
rocky dove
Does SB extend duration if you press it when the previous cast hasn't expired yet? Like, if I press it twice in a row, do I have both presses fully?
strong forum
Well, with 50% haste you can actually have SB SB SB LS SB SB
junior igloo
@rocky dove
Yes, it adds full 6 seconds to the current duration
tawny panther
Isn't that only under 3 seconds worth doing tho
fossil spindle
So my eyes work fine
tawny panther
Like dots
tawny panther
Like a world virus thing?:p
dusk locust
lol
rocky dove
That's why I'm asking. If you cast it twice in a row, do you get 12 seconds or only 8?
junior igloo
You get 12
dusk locust
that'd be interesting. you have to stack two shield blocks before getting silenced so you can deal with an AM check 9 seconds into the future
😛
uneven mason
silence doesn't stop SB
cosmic cargo
all AMs can be stacked 3x afaik
rocky dove
Hang on. so a charge is 9s CD and 6s duration. So if I get this right: I use the first charge, when it ends I use the second charge. When that ends, my first charge is back up with 3 seconds on the next charge, and when that first charge ends, I have another charge ready. So isn't that 24 seconds of uptime, and then I cast LS for another 15 seconds, which then sets my charges back to full, and then I start again and use DS instead of LS. Does that sound about right?
uneven mason
Yes pacify is the word.
rocky dove
or is my math wrong?
junior igloo
Yes, @cosmic cargo, technically there is a limit of max 18s on Shield Block, but it is not possible to reach it under normal circumstances.
rocky dove
because that sounds like what you guys are saying with max SB uptime
cosmic cargo
(not saying you should do that, just saying you could)
tawny panther
Hmm. Cookie food buffs? Lol
uneven mason
Yes your math is correct Nzall
junior igloo
Would still need a lot of haste, maybe like Chromie scenario or some nonsense
uneven mason
however having a 9s CD on SB would be uh, quite interesting to reach
sincei ts base is 18s
junior igloo
@rocky dove
Cooldown of SB is 18 s (reduced by haste)
uneven mason
^^
rocky dove
really thought it was 9 seconds
uneven mason
So if you hit 50% haste
rocky dove
you mean 100% haste
rocky dove
Wasn't it 12 seconds CD during Legion?
junior igloo
13
cosmic cargo
back when HR was the way to go it was so easy to reach the 100%
rocky dove
Okay, so if it is 18 second CD baseline... you use a charge (6/0/18), wait for the buff to expire (0/0/12), use another charge (6/18/12), wait for that to end (0/18/6), use Last Stand (15/18/6), wait for that to end (0/9/0), and then you use DS (8/9/0) and then wait for that to end (0/1/0), at which point you got 1 second of normal resistance. I assume with Anger Management, everything is ready in time to start the cycle again?
those numbers are (defensive active/Sb charge 1 remaining CD/SB charge 2 remaining CD)
I think I might misunderstand things here because LS still has a 2 minute CD, and I doubt AM can bring that down fast enough to be available again when you need it
ember arrow
it does
u do +7 keys and lfr, i dont think youre in a position to argue for that kinda stuff
signal plover
Also stop thinking like a druid
There's gonna be gaps in SB uptime
Which is what our other CDs are for
rocky dove
Oh wait, AM is 3 seconds of LS reduction per SB cast, plus the other spells in there
so you use LS, DS, SW for those gaps? or do you save SW for emergencies?
oh right, haste also reduces the CD of SB
sorry, I'm just thinking out loud here, I like to understand the inner logic behind gameplay cycles like this beyond what guides tell you to do
junior igloo
@rocky dove
Not sure what you are trying to figure out.
dusk locust
i think there's a lot of "it depends" in there but if you aren't specifically holding on to a cooldown because a big hitting ability is coming, you can use them to fill in gaps
junior igloo
Our up-time on Shield Block is 33 % with no haste, about 40 % with expected amounts of haste.
rocky dove
@junior igloo I'm trying to understand how you guys are coming to 90% uptime on defensives
junior igloo
Up-time on Bolster with AM is something like 21 %
cosmic cargo
that high? damn
junior igloo
Demo Shout is 40 % (with the Crushing Thunder trait and Anger Management)
cosmic cargo
what was last stand duration again? i think it might be longer than i remember
junior ivy
that is a cute cat zeppe
junior igloo
Shield Wall maybe 6 % or so with AM.
cosmic cargo
ty, yours too
rocky dove
oh, so that's how you guys get to 90% uptime
junior igloo
So you have to alternate different cooldowns and Shield Block (rather than monks or druids who can do it with one ability)
But at least it's doable unlike paladins or DHs who can't do it at all
rocky dove
ah, like that, so you don't prioritize SB casts and fill the gaps with the other CDs, you alternate SB and another defensive?
cosmic cargo
DH with SB is close to being able to do it
dusk locust
you can also account for shockwave being a few seconds where you don't have anything to mitigate
cosmic cargo
not to the same extent but it's not too far
junior igloo
Well, that's the same think, @rocky dove
rocky dove
@junior igloo It's not exactly the same thing, because with "prioritize SB", if you got 2 charges, you use them in a row, but with alternate, you don't
dusk locust
if it's a heavy hitting trash pack shield block is probably not enough on its own
cosmic cargo
also take into account majority of bosses you don't tank 100% of the time
so it makes having full uptime on something a lot easier
m+ is a completely different topic
dusk locust
i was getting wrecked through shield block on a low 20s maw key fortified
cosmic cargo
where uptime is nowhere near as important
rocky dove
I mean, in M+ you also got some downtime when moving between packs
cosmic cargo
and it's more about, go in, blow everything, kite
rocky dove
and kiting yeah
cosmic cargo
so this conversation only really applies to raid (or dungeons bosses/mini-bosses)
grim prism
It always cracked me up when I would see people with 70% uptime and 30% blocked melees
uneven mason
^^^
uneven mason
getting something that tracks boss swing timers
so you can maximize SB Effective
pro prot warrior stuff
grim prism
dark junco
What pvp talents will you guys use for leveling with warmode ?
grim prism
Or just dont block if you don't have aggro lol
uneven mason
Dragon, Moral, Shield Bash
dark junco
was going for bounding stride with warpath, thunderstruck, shield bash
uneven mason
Well
astral crystal
gotta get that 30% extra dmg on ss fam
solid sun
Sometimes I'm the goober who is so used to hitting SB, during a boss when it's my co-tank's turn to have the boss I'll still hit that button and hate myself
junior igloo
@uneven mason
Most bosses have either 1.5 seconds or 2 seconds swing timer.
Since 6 is divisible by 1.5 and by 2 with no decimals, it doesn't matter if you "watch" swing timer.
You will always have SB up for 4 attacks against 1.5 and for 3 attacks against 2.
cosmic cargo
i think all uldir bosses have 2
grim prism
[furiously shuffles napkins]
dusk locust
^
junior igloo
Well SB doesn't save you any extra second.
You could save a bit with Bolster against a 2s swing timer (timing it so you get 8 hits instead of 7)
grim prism
No I agree
solid sun
I honestly get so excited whenever the napkins come out, @grim prism
junior igloo
Or with Shield Wall against 1.5 swing timer (timing it so you get 6 hits instead of 5)
grim prism
You could also theoretically miss a swing with HR, however >running HR in 8.0
cosmic cargo
though technically on a boss like argus
he delays swings very often
because of casts
so it could make some difference
grim prism
The point remains that saving your block-based abilities for when you actually have stuff to block is better for mitigation than using them offensively
Swing timer or not
May seem obvious to some people but it seems like it is (or was) a common mistake
grim prism
Maximize rez time*
solid sun
Idk about others, but for me I started prot after already having played Brewmaster quite a bit. It just seemed natural to me to use SB like I would ISB.
ember arrow
so always and without anythought
grim prism
junior igloo
Before they added the limit to max duration, do a Nighthold heroic full run, end with 12 minute active ISB
ember arrow
monks used to be the skill tank few years back
now u press ISB and 2-3 times a minute purify
rotation doenst matter, nothing to keep track of pty much
u could make a sequence macro for the rotation
cosmic cargo
people exaggerate about purify way too much
can you survive with poor or no purifies? maybe if everything goes well and healers focus you
that's not generally the case on progress though
on an argus scythe rotation you can easily purify 200k worth of damage or more, for example
200k damage on a phase where healers might be stressing out because of chains is a massive deal
solid sun
You can also purify more than even just 4 times a minute
ember arrow
thats the problem
cosmic cargo
the skill floor is low yes
verbal socket
you can also block more dmg than they can purify ?
cosmic cargo
that I 100% agree
verbal socket
wtf r we talkin about lol
solid sun
It's also pretty noticeable when you have a good BrM and compare them to just a 0 effort memelord brew
grim prism
Same with prot, the 0 effort one dies lol
solid sun
Lol
junior igloo
You can be better or worse at brewmaster, just like any other spec.
It's just that relatively small amount of effort compared to other classes is "good enough" even for medium-decent mythic guild.
cosmic cargo
a bad monk will stress healers more than pretty much any other bad tank though
but his chances of living are also higher
a bad prot warr just goes splat
dusk locust
you can't stress healers if you're dead
junior igloo
Any other bad tank will just die no matter what the healers do :)
A bad monk/bear will cost some globals and mana
tawny panther
Through the miracle of dance , otherwise they are doing their best rug impression
solid sun
Are prot warriors the least represented tank spec in mythic raiding?
Is that even a thing we can know?
junior igloo
We can and no. DHs are
solid sun
Is that expected to continue in BfA? Or is that a wait and see thing
dusk locust
wars are kinda underrepresented in m+ imo. my rank is way higher than i feel i deserve haha
dark junco
its because we don't have any special utility that distinguishes us from others
and we don't have anything that says: we can own m+s
glacial solar
Is prot warrior as doom and gloomy as it appears to be on forums? For m+ mostly?
dusk locust
no
solid sun
Probably depends on the level of keystone. Most here seem to agree that prot warrior will struggle pushing super high keys
But the standard 10/15 keystones aren't an issue
glacial solar
Ah ok, I probably wont hit the 20+ mark I dont think
dusk locust
i'm doing low 20s keys without much trouble on a warrior who never touched mythic raids
glacial solar
Thats a tiny relief!
uneven mason
If you're not planning in pushing beyond +20, than there isn't any situation where a suitably geared warrior would have an unreasonable issue.
Public perception is that warriors are bad, and it basically boils down to folks have been watching me play, and I'm just a shit warrior.
junior igloo
😄
glacial solar
Haha, okey, thanks for the quick response! 😃
solid sun
I wish I could watch you warrior.
uneven mason
it mostly involves corpse runs and smashing keyboards
solid sun
You have 28 of them. You're definitely a god-tier warrior at this point
cosmic cargo
throwing current key numbers around like they mean anything at the start doesn't make much sense
uneven mason
I'm alt-god tier warrior
glacial solar
I haven't played my warrior since WoD, but I miss prot so much, so might just give it a go for bfa!
cosmic cargo
remember you won't be overgearing 15 by a mile, you'll be undergeared for 10s at the start
uneven mason
I'm like the god of warriors shitty alt that he plays once every 2 years.
junior igloo
I don't think we are the best, but I think it's about average rather than bad tbh.
Baseline AoE stun, Rallying Cry and for groups with physical damage Battle Shout are pretty big. We also do decent damage.
cosmic cargo
imo warr is 5th for m+
uneven mason
Warriors have the most adaptable toolkit imo
cosmic cargo
just like in late legion
dark junco
But high m+ aren't about damage as much as kiting
verbal socket
did they change ignore pain to 3 mins?
uneven mason
but not the gravy
verbal socket
anyone got latest beta patch notes
junior igloo
I'm not really sure what druids or paladins offer for m+, seems like nothing
cosmic cargo
druid is dead last
uneven mason
Paladins have cheese
dark junco
druids kiting
cosmic cargo
pala has some of the best kiting
dark junco
pala kiting
uneven mason
And healing
cosmic cargo
druid is the worst at kiting, what are you on about?
dark junco
DK KITE-KING
cosmic cargo
they have 0 slows
dark junco
^
cosmic cargo
if you have mage slowing all can kite
junior igloo
Paladin healing for 20 % on a medium long cooldown, no thanks
uneven mason
Druids still move like a boulder rolling up hill
cosmic cargo
avenger's is op in m+
junior igloo
But yeah, consecration isn't terrible for kiting if that's all you want, but I'm not sure if that beats warriors
AS in BfA hits for nothing
cosmic cargo
not for the damage
uneven mason
Ranged silence
dark junco
^
junior igloo
Much less than revenge or thunder clap
uneven mason
its a ST ranged interrupt
I mean they have a kit
and have immunities
for cheese
junior igloo
We have AoE stun + AoE fear/interrupt whatever it is considered.
AS is a single target silence
uneven mason
I don't think until you hit a point where you have to start looking for cheese mechanics that paladins have anything over war.
dark junco
I'd agree with ya
uneven mason
and thats well beyond where the "balance" point is
dark junco
But like for the average joe, warrior is fine
junior igloo
It doesn't get reset if you kite
cosmic cargo
there's also dungeons with very frequent magic damage
uneven mason
Well Kral thats the thing
dark junco
If you go to the high ends, it there were its rough
cosmic cargo
which you can handle better as pala
uneven mason
Warrior is pretty hard to play right now heh
dark junco
We don,t bring anything that no one else is bringing
uneven mason
we get punished for mistakes
dark junco
Real hard
regal island
Yeah lol
cosmic cargo
dh and monk are still looking amazing thanks to utility
ember arrow
we dont get rewarded for being harder to play
uneven mason
If you're a BrM and make a mistake, you LOL purify...DK and DH have safety nets
lucid bough
Dh gonna be top tier for m+
ember arrow
the reward is "not as much dmg as other tanks"
dark junco
I mean if you're a good warrior tank, then you,d probably be even better on any other tank
uneven mason
Right Levko, Warriors are the ultimate in negative reinforcement
regal island
need more IP stackable. I don't get how Warrior is limited to 1.3 IP but bear can potentially stack 6 ironfurs
dark junco
Which is an issue tbh, when its the class thats bringing you down, and not your gameplay
uneven mason
"If I fuck up I'll die" rather than "If I combo this right, I'll be an unkillable god for 6s"
Helbrute if you're ever in a situation where its tenable to spam IP enough to get more than a 1.3 stack
dark junco
Then you wont need it
uneven mason
then you're probably not getting your face beat in anyway
and should have pressed revenge
dark junco
^
regal island
well say a argus scyth you cant block or something SB is useless
but 2x IP's would be helpful
uneven mason
if you don't have SB up for Scyth you're dead anyway
dark junco
Did any other class didn't get any of their legendary traits as a baseline like prot warriors ?
regal island
Nah block isn't a % anymore
dark junco
None
uneven mason
Scyth has a AM check does it not? (Never taken one without block up, so I honestly don't know)
I mean that mightb e gone now
I suppose it wouldn't
But block is indeed a % now
its a larger % than it was previously infact
Helbrute, block is a scaling mitigation value that works just like a 2nd layer of armor.
its not a FLAT %
but its still a %
solid sun
I wish Ion would answer tank balancing questions in the q and a sessions they do
cosmic cargo
no stupid AM checks in raid
uneven mason
What balancing question?
solid sun
A lot of what y'all are bringing up even now
Warrior is harder than any other tank and isn't rewarded for it
uneven mason
We're rewarded with our lives!
solid sun
I'd like to know how he views that from a tank balancing perspective
But he would never answer that on one of those streams
uneven mason
Actually We're rewarded because playing the hard class like a boss, and going against folks general perception gets you a lot more kudo's than the BrM who takes a building to his face and just giggles on, the BrM is expected to be OP, the warrior is expected to die.
Yeha they never touched on tanks
outside of "We want tank healing to matter"
solid sun
I'm not even interested in other tank specs being worse
But it doesn't take a very long look at them all to see disparities
grim prism
Prot got zero feedback for all of Legion
This is par for the course tbh
I think they are more concerned with making sure nothing is too OP than they are with bringing up specs that are perceived to be underperforming
There isn't a colossal disparity
Based on raiding achievement %s and the new raiding paradign, it's safe to assume that the average raider is pretty bad and will probably only clear heroic. Prot will be perfectly viable for that, thus no tweaks required
sick sentinel
We are viable for mythic, just not top 100 world
grim prism
Is it harder than some other specs? Probably. But I'm fine with that, and the vast majority of raid guilds should be as well
@sick sentinel i agree we will be viable in mythic as well
solid sun
As someone who doesn't clear mythic and freely admits I'm maybe above average at best as a player, my group and I benefit a lot when a class is well equipped. Simply being viable sometimes still adds extra layers of difficulty to a boss or keystone level that feels bad. When I could just hop on my monk and instantly make my healer's job easier or at least make him not feel so stressed out (as noted by what he says in Discord), it makes me feel like a sucky person even logging into my warrior
grim prism
I guess it depends on what you are trying to accomplish
I see your point though
However
I've always felt that raiders that aren't on cutting-edge prog (pun unintended) don't really have a place to cherrypick what their players should be rolling, since at that level I think it's safe to assume that most raiders in the group have things they could substantially improve
If you personally feel that playing prot is gimping your team and you would do better as BrM then maybe it is worth switching it up
junior igloo
Why should that be mutually exclusive?
You have more things to improve, one of those things is getting stronger/easier classes
grim prism
But if you are playing to have fun, then obviously you should play what is fun to you
shut summit
is silly to put 'but not top 100 world' when we were fine for that all xpac
i dont know where you even get that metric from
ember arrow
there were prot warr in top 100
grim prism
Sco 
cosmic cargo
all expantion is pushing it
considering NH existed
exorsus ran warrs quite often outside of that though
rare helm
Still better off than Prot Paladins in BC - and that was after blizzard made them 'viable'
cosmic cargo
did you play your warr on augur?
junior igloo
"Fine" is not really a metric at all.
I am pretty sure I play a warrior better than I play a monk and I got better results on a monk.
grim prism
A tier in which we performed very well against certain mechanics, despite issues with some others
Which is to be expected in a game where tank specs have different toolkits
I think it was more a problem with bears being crazy OP than prot being undertuned
cosmic cargo
and i agree with meiffert
grim prism
Everything was undertuned compared to NH bears
cosmic cargo
saying something is "good enough" is kinda shitty
not really, monks and palas were quite good for NH too
grim prism
Lol
ember arrow
thats how "good enough"sounds to me
shut summit
i'm not saying we're in perfect spot and its w/e, i'm saying that placing some llimiting number of world rank is stupid
junior igloo
Right, that I agree with
ember arrow
i love my war, but having to put way more effort to still be equal or sometimes even less in surv to others
feels bad
cosmic cargo
throwing arbitrary world rank numbers is silly yes
shut summit
which is what i responded to
cosmic cargo
i'm agreeing with that part of what you said
grim prism
Its the nature of the game @ember arrow
Some specs excel on some fights, others struggle. War just had a few more struggly ones than excellent ones.
Think of it like RNG, like every other mechanic in the goddamn game now
sick sentinel
The root problem, is how a lot of the people who complain about their class being bad are listening to streamers and top guild's who put out videos ranking the classes.
"a lot" meaning, something like 99% most likely since if you're not listening to a streamer or watching a top guild's video... well you're not in that percentile to KNOW about it anyway.
grim prism
Or you already play a fuckload and have made your own decisions*
sick sentinel
So when a streamer/guild put out a video saying "top 5 tanks", or "tanks ranked", and class X is at the bottom, there is a reason for it.
wide juniper
Anytime someone says warrior isn't best, that video gets referenced.
People can form their own opinions without caring much about the video you're talking about.
sick sentinel
So now as the player side reading that, they don't really understand what the streamer/video means as to why, they think the class is garbage and no one will take them.
grim prism
Anytime someone says warrior isn't best, I can't wait foe the patch to hit so I can stop hearing about it 
rare helm
Here's a question. Should Blizzard balance around relative power levels of classes or should they look at changes in player numbers to guide their balancing?
cosmic cargo
@sick sentinel unless that person is sco and he has no clue what he's talking about 90% of the time
wide juniper
Most progression guilds where it matters, don't care about what Sco said.
grim prism
Sco knows what he is talking about
wide juniper
^
sick sentinel
Oh, if people are strictly referring to Sco, that's a different story.
grim prism
It's still just one man's opiniom though
cosmic cargo
he has shown multiple times he doesn't
grim prism
Not an end-all-be-all ruling
cosmic cargo
back in antorus when he ranked tanks
sick sentinel
There's another prominent streamer who recently said warrior tanks are utter garbage/won't be brought to high-end M+.
cosmic cargo
he played dh with fucking blade turning
grand viper
+1 to that @sick sentinel . I don't know how many times groups said "wow that went better than expected." Solely from me playing protection war in m+
cosmic cargo
at talent that has never even been close to being viable
among other things
in bfa beta he's playing prot warr with indomitable and didn't even touch the other tanks beyond like 112
grand viper
Like it wasnt he greatest utility wise, but could still do all contebt
sick sentinel
So it's just human instinct to, again, not fully understand what high-end players mean when they say a class is lesser suited than another. They just take it as "omg my class sucks!"
cosmic cargo
he thought bear was the shit throughout ToS and antorus when exorsus didn't pick bears at all except for fights where roar was needed
he has shown time and time again he does not know what he's on about
grim prism
He still knows more about every individual tank spec than I do and has seen content that I haven't seen
I'm not defending people who do the Sco's List argument
cosmic cargo
a few hours of research and you can know more than him, trust me
now if you were talking about justwait
or sloot
or someone like that
grim prism
I'm just saying it's not like he is doing a disservice to the community by making a video
cosmic cargo
absolutely they know their shit
well he is
because it's a very misinformed video
and people buy it
celest stratus
So prots are best tanks at 120?
regal island
Anyone know if reinforced plating stacks?
celest stratus
😉
regal island
like it stacks upto 5 times, but would 3 traits of it increase it x3?
sick sentinel
I think sco is kinda of carried in method, his talent choices are questionable to say the least
rare helm
If people want to know what being gimped really feels like I guess they can try Bear or Tankadin when Classic comes out.
stark sage
judging sco's ability on his talent choices 🤔
sick sentinel
@cosmic cargo I don't think I've watched any of his personal videos. I do know of method/their kills, but it sounds like what you are saying is, a GM of a top guild who does indeed see every piece of content and is involved in kills that take people weeks/months longer doesn't know what he's talking about?
cosmic cargo
not his ability, but his knowledge
sick sentinel
@stark sage he ia not a bad tank, but is not the best not even close ,has a player in method
@cosmic cargo What I'm saying is, there has to be a reason him/method chose for him to play X versus Y.
grim prism
People dont watch the video, they just skim the list and say "this is how it is"
grim prism
He has reasons for ranking them how he does
cosmic cargo
if you honestly think he'd play for method if he didn't own them
frank mantle
Those reasons are for the most part shit
grim prism
Jesus how did this turn into me defending Sco
sick sentinel
@cosmic cargo Oh, so you think when you're at that level, as a GM you just say "Guys, I'm playing bear this tier/expac" and every other player is "ok cool boss"?
stark sage
i dont like how his videos affect the community, dont get me wrong. but he isnt baseless in his decision making and he isnt stupid
sick sentinel
@cosmic cargo Hint: You don't get world-firsts by picking and choosing to do whatever the hell you want.
grim prism
@stark sage hit the nail on the head
celest stratus
I am pretty sure a player in a world top 5 guild looks differently at tanks than most.
frank mantle
He was told to play bear because it’s near impossible to be shit at being a bear
shut summit
they stack @regal island
sick sentinel
@frank mantle Lol
regal island
Have to remember world first progression is quite a bit different, and braindead specs simply preform best on new progression. Less rotation to worry about.
cosmic cargo
and even then, if you ask people at his level that main bear
grand viper
At the end of the day, top guilds are just going to progress with the tank classes that have the best damage smoothing and mitigation to clear mythic the quickest. All tanks will probably viable, just some better than others
regal island
bear is playable by one of those water bird things.
sick sentinel
@grand viper Bingo!
stark sage
@grand viper its more about which tanks have the most useful utility in a given raid
grand viper
That included
sick sentinel
He mained bear because it needs almost no gear to stay alive IMO
cosmic cargo
and monk was far superior to druid throughout antorus/tos in smoothing regard
sick sentinel
Hence why people who watch these streamers (typical high view-count streamers) are pretty decent players, so they take their word as gospel. When at the end, you're nowhere near playing at that level, hence it doesn't matter that your spec needs to be geared a bit more.
stark sage
druid was picked in abt because of roar
regal island
thanks @shut summit with the str to armor passive, i could see that one being pretty good if we can keep the uptime going.
grand viper
But also since they were just a solid wall
grand viper
But you could play druid afk and not die
celest stratus
Prot paladin did not feel like a solid wall 😂
junior igloo
I don't mind Sco's videos.
He clearly states his metrics and reasons for his rankings in individual metrics.
You can disagree with both the metrics chosen and his opinions (and arrive at a different final standings as a result), but it's good to hear another high end player's thoughts on the matter.
regal island
Yeah like i've d/ced on heroic on my guardian and logged back in 30 sec later alive while tanking.
frank mantle
First off sco made that video and opinions when he’s only played 1 tank at 120. So I need to say more?
regal island
Sco has access to pretty much all the method accounts
sick sentinel
@junior igloo We got on this subject though, due to how many high-end players are saying prot is terrible currently. 😛
stark sage
i mean stating class balance for 120 is just clickbait for ad revenue at this point
method is a company after all
regal island
he may only play "his" warrior but he i'm sure has tried the others on accounts that method owns.
grand viper
@stark sage yup
sick sentinel
At the end of te day I play warrior cause i like it and at the 1000ths world rank i can play wtv when i reach the content im well "overgeared"
junior igloo
@frank mantle
I haven't played any healer in Antorus and I can tell you which were better in different situations 🤷
regal island
I like warrior because i can intervene my rtard little brother when he bladestorms on pull in a 20 key
cosmic cargo
lmao
regal island
plus some of the jink things you can do. Intervene a hunter that just disengaged for some huge distance
cosmic cargo
play pala and bop him 👍
sick sentinel
@regal island i bet he screams while doing it!
regal island
pala doesn't have the shockwave
grim prism
Just for the record, I skimmed Sco's most recent raid tank vid
And he has DH at the bottom
regal island
can only bop one... gotta worry about rtard gf eye beaming stuff too
grim prism
With war at 12/20 points and his #1 pick at 15/20
regal island
intervene + shockwave = protect the group
grim prism
So I dont really think that's calling it "terrible"
Who are these high-end players supposedly calling prot terrible?
They sure af aren't in this discord
regal island
warrior is like the outlaw rogue of tanking
you might die, you might crit block everything
dark junco
@junior igloo Yeah,. good, to hear sco says things like indommitable is the best choice
grim prism
Did Sco say that @dark junco?
sick sentinel
@grim prism That's hilarious, Jdotb has DH at #1. Now, Sco could be referring to "across all content", and Jdot is strictly referring to high-end M+, but still. It just further proves my point people read/watch things ranking their class low and take it as their class is garbage. 😛
regal island
There was a pretty good article about why max HP was actually more important than more mitigation.
strong forum
HP matters. but its not more important than midigation LUL
grim prism
Sco's vid that I skimmed was raid-specific and he has a separate one for M+ @sick sentinel
dark junco
Are you saying Indom > Devastate ?
final mist
High HP and low mit makes you a healing sponge. It's not always 100% better.
dark junco
Unless druid or DK
Where mastery gives you % heals bonus or things alike
But notheless, I have issues trusting Sco
But he does swerves the meta around
And thats a sad thing
crisp anvil
Thats generally what happens when you are main tank of the best raiding guild in the world
dark junco
But can't play your warrior correctly
grim prism
He only did it for the achievement at the end of the tier
regal island
actually indom>devastate atm because of free time on globals.
junior igloo
All I remember (and that's not current at all) was him saying that warriors would need both Devastator and Indomitable to be a top tank at that point.
I don't think that Sco did warrior guides or something similar where discussing optimal talent setup would even come up
cosmic cargo
they're not on the same line atm
regal island
as people get more haste i'm sure devastate value will go back up
crisp anvil
He's talking high end mythic raiding progression guys
like, week 1 clears
and he's also 100% correct
cosmic cargo
i have no doubt justwait does all the proper tank research for him when it's actually necessary
crisp anvil
I dont see any hate.
grim prism
People hate Sco because the community takes bits and pieces of his argument and runs with them to absurdity
wide juniper
Not his fault.
grim prism
Until 5 min ago when I pulled up his vid I was under the impression we were "the worst tanks by far"
He doesnt even have us at the bottom lol
wide juniper
Nope.
crisp anvil
People hate Sco because he's better than they are and people hate those who are more successful than them. It's basic human psychology.
grim prism
People are sheep and nees to think for themselves
regal island
well just depends what you're after keys or raids
wide juniper
I'm just ready for BfA and to get back into raiding.
crisp anvil
Warriors are not meta tanks for progression and they won't be as long as ignore pain is on the GCD and we cant have 100% uptime on shield block.
uneven mason
That isn't why..
crisp anvil
yes, it is
regal island
Where as stagger is passive
uneven mason
k...
wide juniper
Fight!
grim prism
He has us above druids in his M+ vid too
wide juniper
🍿
grim prism
Literally arent "bottom tier" in any of hos current vids
grim prism
People just parrot bullshit
Which is why we try to stick to actual theorycrafting here in this discord
junior igloo
You have a winner and then you have the first loser, balsaq 😛
wide juniper
I'm a loser. PepeHands
grim prism
Feelsbad being viable
regal island
idk plate tanks with shields just feels right
crisp anvil
Honestly, if not for the reasons i mentioned, what is holding warriors back from being meta? Ignore Pain GCD, cant keep SB up 100% uptime, and little to no self sustain. Why else?
regal island
Ignore Pain GCD & 1.3 cap
junior igloo
Active mitigation up-time is a real problem.
But tuning is what matters at the end of the day, so the predictions are limited in that sense.
Just look at Emerald Nightmare (best tank by far immortal god) vs. Nighhold (tough choice between warrior and DH for the last spot).
Those were two instances in the same raid tier with no big design changes, just numbers nerfs.
crisp anvil
really? bigger than the other weaknesses?
regal island
Kinda want something cool on warrior. Like if you Heroic Leap within 1 second of casting intervene you take the intervene target with you
junior igloo
Well Rallying Cry is pretty good, what do other tanks have in that department for raiding?
uneven mason
Meta tanks for progression are generally ones that have a required utility, or are able to cheese mechanics in some way. our survivability is just fine, 100% SB uptime and IP on the GCD has nothing to do with being unable to suck up a massive mistake and have a recovery based toolkit to correct it.
crisp anvil
I mean, BM are considered top tier and they dont have much utility. but their ability to smooth phys damage makes them best tanks so im not sure thats the problem
stark sage
@junior igloo i think rally's usefullness will come down to how required the buff is in the raids. on top of how unique it is for prot to be using it
look at roar from guardians, it was very useful and was really only brought by guardians
regal island
because it was 1min cd for them
junior igloo
It doesn't need to be unique.
If you have 2 warriors, you can use it twice as often, so it's not wasted
stark sage
or grasp being specifically blood
uneven mason
I mean, even if they removed all room for error from Protection warriors, there are already 2 other tanks with nearly raw idiot proof toolkits, that bring utility we don't.
regal island
now it's feral as well
regal island
^ yeah and on a longer cd
stark sage
rally doesnt need to be unique to be good, but it needs to be sought after to be good
instead of just nice to have
junior igloo
The difference is that things like mass grip or roar is needed on 1 fight out of 10, maybe less.
Defensive raid cooldown are useful on every fight.
stark sage
sure, but useful on every fight vs required on 1 fight
grim prism
Different tanks do better on different fights, blanket discussions of who is "best" are pretty impractical in the first place imo
stark sage
that is hard to say which is better
grim prism
Although the defensive CDs argument is pretty strong in that context
solid sun
When Sloot talked about warriors, he mentioned a lack of self sustain hurting the warrior toolkit
uneven mason
And that's true, it doesn't make the warrior kit bad, its that warriors are a 100% proactive playstyle, very little room for error since we have no way to right the ship on our own.
junior igloo
Yeah, but that is more 5-man problem
In raids the amount of total healing you are getting is huge, the little bit that druids, monks or paladins can self-heal is negligible.
DKs are the obvious exception because their toolkit is based around selfhealing
regal island
IMO if i were to walk into blizzard and purpose a prot warrior fix that day. It would be a mastery change. Remove crit block, make warrior blocks work like parry resetting you're swing timer and have mastery increase your ignore pain.
after testing possibly take IP off gcd.
More rage, more IP, scaled with mastery to keep in under control.
dark junco
Yeah but warrior still get bursted down if they fuck up
Or make that when you parry, you can riposte and put a debuff that reduce the damage dealt by the boss/mob
grim prism
Personally I like the proactivity of current prot
dark junco
like 15% non elite, 5% elites
grim prism
Requires preplanning and situational awareness
dark junco
Just like pvp talents of debuff aura
grim prism
You cant just snoozetank like some specs may be able to
regal island
idk i'd like warrior a lot more if block was 360*
dark junco
We just need a really good raid utility to see play
regal island
nothing like getting felclawed from above due to boss model size
regal island
shouldn't have to.
dark junco
Not as much as other mythic tanks Keladan
Per the beta, the ratio seems about the same as Nighthold and ToS mythic ratio
regal island
Yeah monks definitly are just not popular on US servers, idk why
stark sage
population isnt 100% true of viability
regal island
i expect a good chunk of the ww's to reroll outlaw too so that will drop that a bit
dark junco
When your sample is >3k, its pretty accurate
uneven mason
Thats why we're here!
stark sage
DKs arent even that good on the beta
dark junco
Just have to play my warrior since he's my first character and he's here since BC
stark sage
its not indicative of balance
regal island
Yeah but 1/2 this discord has probably already started a non warrior alt/newmain for bfa
ember arrow
Any tank player should play multiple tanks