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#protection
sick sentinel
waxen cradle
Truthfully most of what the "popular" streamers and there "rankings" for the tanks have more to do with SB's uptime, but most of those rankings do not consider bolster so they are technically missing part of the picture so to speak
sick sentinel
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opaque pagoda
you're right that IP feels like it sucks, 4p notwithstanding
fringe marten
The more major issue I think, from blizzards side...they kept trying to alter class abilities to make 'other talent options more attractive and viable' as it stands now I think there's pretty much a set in stone talent choice for most of the tiers.
opaque pagoda
it will be slightly better if you have the azerite trait to get leech for 8 seconds or whatever
main vault
Alot of the things people are expecting from the class is not their vision for how it should play, and I think alot of the complaints are the communities fault and not Blizzards
undone sun
marginally so
sick sentinel
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opaque pagoda
I just don't think this falls into the realm of subjectivity, unless you can claim that anything in game design is subjective
you can provide commentary on the flow and priorities of a class without it being lost in some abstract haze of thought
sick sentinel
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fringe marten
Skullplace, they are running a Fantasy..Role Playing...video game. Having classes fit into lore fantasy has ALWAYS been a key bullet point.
opaque pagoda
right now the rage spenders just aren't there
sick sentinel
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fringe marten
A large portion of the player base is only concerned with what provides the best numbers... so fantasy, lore..etc is meaningless. and in that sense there will always be a best class for a role..and if it's not the one you want it to be; you're unhappy. IE..why tons of WoW players (and all mmo players) are salty about their class.
I'm one of them; I'm not making another tank, I want warrior to be great and play well. I was fairly ok with how it played later in legion (was not happy when they gutted 30% of ip after the first month of legion)
opaque pagoda
I'm fairly committed to the warrior class, as a warrior main since vanilla, and I could be convinced to keep playing if IP did some AoE damage or something like that
sick sentinel
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main vault
If one spell is your only complaint about the class then your class is doing really well
IP is not make or break by any measure for War
opaque pagoda
it's an important one, in the absence of any other rage dump
main vault
If it is then that is a problem with player perception and not Blizzard design
main vault
That's what revenge is
sick sentinel
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main vault
Whether you like it or not
fringe marten
Nexii it's not about the spell per se, it's how the change to that spell (and a couple others as well..demo shout, avatar..etc) changes how the class feels when you play it.
sick sentinel
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opaque pagoda
a rage dump that's free most of the time isn't a rage dump
sick sentinel
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main vault
I've played a lot or warrior
sick sentinel
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main vault
And I don't have a big problem dumping rage
sick sentinel
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main vault
It's not a broken spec, it does what it's supposed to do and most of the time feels good doing it
fringe marten
Big example, Devastator...the talent was great and was a good pick for the class. What really made devastator awesome? You didn't have to flutter the Devastate key any more...it literally became automatic, it made your rotation smoother and removed something you had to consider using a GCD for..and made it free. That was my personal favorite part about devastator..regardless of it's impact on rage gen and dps.
opaque pagoda
I don't know what would constitute a broken spec
hot locust
I also think the current tuning for prot at 120 is performing just fine.
main vault
It is
opaque pagoda
like if you took extra damage for 5 seconds after using shield slam?
fringe marten
Then they put the 30% chance to reset shield slam on Tclap and revenge...and so the 'need' to flutter devastate went away anyway.
Honestly nexii I haven't touched the beta at all, so what alters between now and how it is at 120? (obviously things like the leggo belt go away, so the INSANE refresh times on demo shout go away)
main vault
It honestly flows alot better at 120
waxen cradle
The need to even push Devastate anymore with TC/Revenge resetting SS is near pointless, Devastate is literally the button you push when you have nothing else to hit
main vault
Alot of the problem is playing a 120 spec with 110 leveling stats, which you do now
fringe marten
I don't play beta stuff because I don't want to learn or adjust to changes that aren't 'canon' ..ie aren't live. Because it will change on live servers.
main vault
You won't have 9000% haste and etc at 120
amber siren
Majority of class changes were locked in a month ago, it's just number tuning now
fringe marten
Right Drkreven but my point being...at the time, devastator was SO amazing because it freed up the ability to have to smash devastate CONSTANTLY. they added the shield slam reset to Tclap and revenge later as well.
main vault
They did it at the same time or else devastator would feel so bad with no SS resets
fringe marten
Yeah but on the patch they added devastator...you didn't have to hit devaste any more. That was what made me fall in love with the playstyle change instantly.
waxen cradle
Honestly it is what Nexii said "most" people are looking at prot through the eyes of 110, and we have literally one more week of that so I would not get to hung up on how prot plays at 110 ๐
fringe marten
(yeah it was the same patch now that I think about it..they had to add it for devastator)
main vault
I'd say most of the people constantly in here complaining about the spec haven't played it at a level (120, leveling) that matters
I only got up to like 355, but I thought it played well
opaque pagoda
I just can't imagine what's different, you haven't done a great job articulating it
I was in F&F, and by the time they finally implemented some of the end game stuff, my warrior was broken due to missing some earlier quests
so I just played other classes
main vault
It takes less than 10 hours to level a class
You could have just started another and leveled if it meant that much
opaque pagoda
you got me, bro
main vault
I've leveled 20-25 toons on beta so far
hot locust
You're rage is more measured, the damage you take in dungeons is actually tuned around what the classes are like in BFA and not legion, deafening crash is super satisfying to keep uptime on DS with, etc.
waxen cradle
I will say this play the Prot Warrior at 120 and decently geared after hitting 120 such as what Nexii said as I too got to 355 before I moved on and spread my testing amongst other classes/tanks, and then discuss things again because there are big differences
main vault
I haven't played live in over a month cause lulz live
fringe marten
deafening crash?
main vault
But at 120 you don't have this massive abundance of rage you think you have to dump
hot locust
azerite trait
main vault
You actually have to think about it
opaque pagoda
guess I just have to take your word for it, even though I can't see how that would be the case
main vault
I basically have been on live long enough to level my US toons to 110 and gear them a bit and move them to my new US guild
Because you don't have as much haste
waxen cradle
Unless they have changed rage tuning since then we will still swim in rage on AoE pulls but that hardly matters because AoE pulls do not account for any bosses realistically
fringe marten
I looked at the traits...the one that extends demo shout looked good and one other that effected block?
hot locust
Since Iron Fortress got nerfed I think Brace for Impact might actually be better pure defensively.
fringe marten
Do you have to make a choice as to which trait to use, or do you get them all from gear?
hot locust
IF obviously is a bit more consistent.
hot locust
but IF is also more damage overall if you are tanking full time or in AoE.
main vault
So every time you run Temple, the Azerite that drops per slot is the same
waxen cradle
On bosses or STarget obviously it does become a matter of managing rage correctly and we do not have a ton of rage to set on or dump
main vault
And etx
Yeah for sure
But in AoE you are honestly not worrying about IP
you are too busy embarrassing dps on the meter
fringe marten
that alleviates the 'traffic jam' problem I was talking about earlier..so if the class just slows down due to lack of rage, gcd conflicts won't be as big
main vault
Yeah that basically what happens
You aren't gcd locked at max
I mean it's literally the same as when you level from 1
When at level 20 your only spell is shield block and you live rage capped
Then at 110 you arent
opaque pagoda
fringe marten
I didn't quite get the azerite trait thing when I read about it, do you basically choose what trait you want from that wheel..? they're all tied to the necklace..and what quality of ? helm? and BP and shoulder? you have..?
main vault
I guess you have never leveled a character before
Because it happens all the time
No
The level of neck is just like the concordance worked with the crucible
Depending on difficulty you have to get to a certain neck level to unlock a ring
If you get a chest azerite from dungeon A, that chest will always have the exact same traits
The only difference being the # scaling from the level of difficulty
fringe marten
and then you get all the abilities, or can choose which trait is active on that rung of the wheel?
main vault
Yes
So if iron fortress drops from dungeon a on the helm, the helm from that dungeon will 100% of the time have IF
But heroic may take neck level 15 to unlock outer ring, mythic maybe 25
Just throwing numbers out
fringe marten
Ok, which are the ones that have a worthwhile competitor...ie ones you'll be changing depending on raid vs dungeon...etc?
main vault
Nonr
main vault
Raid traits would have to be buffed to be shit
So each piece has x traits
Once for each spec
opaque pagoda
it's fucking expensive to change traits, in case you were curious
main vault
And a region trait
opaque pagoda
main vault
It's 5g to swap
Then doubles each time
And halves every 3 days
Or something
Maybe 2g, but whatever it is
@fringe marten you can choose whatever trait you want but depending on what it is it may not be active if you aren't in that spec
So more than likely if you are serious about raiding and m+ you'll have a few sets of azerite
fringe marten
it's ok..in a week'ish I'll get a grasp on it.
And there's no more gear swaps in dungeons...which is why they did that
you just have to change before hand.
fringe marten
good god I hope not...had a bag full of legendaries and then various companion pieces depending on what I changed out.
main vault
Like I personally will have one for each dungeon, for different uses (dps, survival, magic, physical, etc)
I expect to have around 30 sets
Not all different all the time, but just to be able to reference
fringe marten
The traits on the gear are locked in based on the item right? So you'll be using the Helm from X dungeon, shoulder from Y raid drop...etc, as one set?
main vault
Right
fringe marten
and the azerite traits are on...all visible pieces of gear, and the neck?
fringe marten
oh it's just your new perma upgrading legendary item?
main vault
Traits are only on the 3 gear slots
Picture artifact with no traits and only ilvl relics
fringe marten
right...it's the ring from WoD..(maybe without the cool proc)
sick sentinel
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dapper leaf
Hey guys, just boosted my prot warrior and I got some essences to spend. Are there any legendries that will be more beneficial for leveling that I should aim to get first?
valid trout
Not Prydaz(TM)
But uh idk, Boots/Shoulders would make you Go Fast
I imagine Gloves/TGod's would be max damage?
dapper leaf
Sounds good mate, thanks.
dapper leaf
kk
valid trout
I don't think we'll get Azerite gear while levelling. Doesn't it only drop from Raid/M+?
Or am I horribly mistaken on that?
amber siren
It comes from levelling gear as well
valid trout
Oh, interesting.
I haven't had time to play the beta; does Prot at 120 feel better than it does currently?
sick sentinel
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valid trout
Yeah, that's kinda what I'm hoping. And telling myself.
I guess I just A). wanted to hear someone else say it too and B). Get some sort of reassurance that it won't be a repeat of BRF
sick sentinel
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hot locust
I think we'll get nerfed between release and mythic uldir opening. :^)
sick sentinel
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weary notch
My money is on nerfs tomorrow. Don't want us too strong for the Siege of Lordaeron
oh yeah, feet leggos are a noticeable difference. Just got em
plain vapor
guildie made me a weakaura package ๐
frank mantle
Iโm waiting on slootbags
wanton sentinel
fringe marten
sup max
main vault
Seems like this isn't the place to post it then...
solid sun
Yes and no. No news is still kinda news.
solid sun
Still more on-topic than a lot of what gets posted here.
main vault
Yeah can't interrupt all the people complaining to post irrelevant news
undone sun
ยฏ_(ใ)_/ยฏ
nova geyser
anyone know of a post / site listing prot warriors best azerite traits or is it too early to say? idk what beta testers have done yet
undone sun
it's too early to post a definite guide, traits are getting changed almost daily still
west vigil
@main vault just so you know i have no news regarding prot either
i'll update tomorrow
fossil spindle
My God, did a +21 and tentacles at Helya hurt like crazy in MoS. First time I ever even notice them doing so much damage. Those bleeds are insane.
fossil spindle
Wait, what
ember arrow
yes
if u use SR few sec after tentacle spawns
then u will reflect the dot to the tentacle
they spawn often enough to have SR up every time, as long as they get killed ina the 25 sec window
fossil spindle
Haha, 2 years of Legion and I didnt even know that. Ill let myself out.
ember arrow
cant blame u, its a physical dot, and it get sreflected
fossil spindle
Was even checking that its physical so thats why im shocked that it can be reflected.
hot locust
some physical things out there are flagged as spells :^)
many things actually
just also flagged as non-reflectable most of the time
fossil spindle
Thanks. Now I can report back to my healer and make him a coffee with vodka.
ember arrow
oh youre still inside?
fossil spindle
No
I love how last week I said doing anything above 20 seems like a death sentence, I was wrong. Prot is fine. No problems tanking above 20+ even tho we didnt make this MoS 21 in time. People do love to get 1 shot at 2nd boss.
ember arrow
always
plucky night
it's not mythic plus if ppl don't act like mongos on harbaron
zealous ore
Levko wearing pants ๐ค
vocal nimbus
hi
zealous ore
Hi
zealous ore
Protgang
zealous ore
nice
timid jay
wow rude
zealous ore
@timid jay Arms TC now?
timid jay
Nah, we have Vel for that
zealous ore
Then what do you even do?
zealous ore
Nice
undone sun
@vocal nimbus ๐ก
zealous ore
Can I have TC rank too?
undone sun
lol
timid jay
yeh sure, just ask Marok
zealous ore
@fierce juniper
vocal nimbus
woah abrodus, calm down
zealous ore
I simed BT>OF in the first 6 GCDs of BC once
and it was within margin of error
Big TC
timid jay
Idk if I should make another spreadsheet like I did for antorus
Maybe for the release of the raid this time
๐ค
zealous ore
I thought you were genuinely DPS boye now?
timid jay
Doesnt mean I cant do math and shit for prot
zealous ore
Nice
timid jay
Prob gonna be playing 3rd tank for raids and for m+
vocal nimbus
wish i could do that too
zealous ore
You could
zealous ore
Join a different guild
vocal nimbus
Ye, just survive ๐
timid jay
Id argue its among the easier roles but it requires the highest consistency by far
If you're really cutting edge probably one of the harder roles though
vocal nimbus
A mistake as dps is fairly forgiving, a mistake as tank not really
zealous ore
Depends what content you're doing
And what you mean by mistake
As a tank you can press the wrong buttons half the time and it doesn't matter
ember arrow
depends what wrong buttons means
zealous ore
Inoptimal buttons
amber siren
Just mispress a CD ๐ EZ
timid jay
hence the consistency Soul
timid jay
Usually pretty easy to execute but if you fuck up its a wipe
zealous ore
Mechanical consistency is more important on a tank than any other role
timid jay
definitely
merry cave
I've mained all roles at reasonably high level, dps was def my easiest. Throw on some music and pad those meters ๐
zealous ore
Oof
merry cave
That's when I was enhance lol, tectus and magister dream fights
zealous ore
I've played all roles recently, I think healer>dps>=tank
Tank and dps difficulty depend on role/spec
But ey
ember arrow
where does this discussion come from
zealous ore
Play whatever you want
zealous ore
I dunno
ember arrow
who claimed tanks is super hard
zealous ore
No one did
Woah Levko
Why so serious
Oh, Soulwalker said that he was the only person in his guild he'd trust to tank
And then I said tanking is the easiest role :))))))))))))))))))))
Soul is just a control freak, no surprises there
zealous ore
Tanking is OP, never benched
vocal nimbus
i benched my gm :lul
timid jay
hmmm
zealous ore
oof
zealous ore
Can't get benched when you're the RL?
timid jay
tru Soul
timid jay
Who said I was any exception
zealous ore
FeelsCuckmuMan
tardy plinth
Any tips on protection warrior addons, for BFA?
vocal nimbus
There arent specific addons
People usually use dbm/bigwigs for raiding, weakauras for cd tracking and interface addons
You can find prot warrior weakauras in wago.io
Its like a library of weakauras
zealous ore
Akmondor 2.0
muted holly
How do you see blocked attacks
trying to work out when to use shield block vs ignore pain but i dont see anything being blocked
vocal nimbus
Combat registry shows when you block and how much you've blocked
Also you can upload a log and it will show you more info
tiny sable
not seing anything for block must not be blocking anything i guess
tight tree
I guess you can use some combat text addo that can show what you blocking
tiny sable
how do u know when to use Shield block or ignore pain?
tiny sable
humm loks lites its in the combat log shame id love to see it in flaoting txt like it used to
cosmic cargo
floating combat text is generally overglorified clutter
tiny sable
figured it out now just need to manage rage so i have some for when i need block - thats the tricky part
ember arrow
well SB is prio number 1
IP is rage dump
with reduced haste in bfa, revenge wont be worth it as dump unless u use it on proc for free
frigid pawn
I only use IP to dump my rage on so i can get my CDs up faster
ember arrow
exactly
tiny sable
ah ok kee pSB use IP if you got the rage rgr that
ember arrow
pretty much ye
if youre on live, then u have enough rage buildup to dump into non-free revenge
but with less generation, u will use IP 90% of time as rage dump, however, SB uptime is most important
lone cobalt
is sb always providing more mitigation than ip (at least on autoattacks) ?
tawny panther
Ip still poorly tuned too unless anyone else can correct me. But that's all we got
amber siren
Ip isn't going to be like legion, it's going to be a rage dump with some defensive benefit rather than the large defensive buffer that it was
uneven violet
what about ProtPalas Holy Shield Talent ?
amber siren
Block isn't their AM, their armour bonus thingo i can't remember the name of is
ember arrow
shield of the righteous (SOTR)
uneven violet
ah ok, i ignored the AM there ^^
lone cobalt
is there any list of spells that can be reflected in bfa ? (dungeons / raids)
main vault
There will be, not yet
tiny sable
id love a ranged spell interupt because pulling groups with two or more spell casters is frustrating with only mele interupt
tight tree
You have your group for that
But i miss the time we could silence with heroic throw yes ๐
ember arrow
u charge the range guy, kick him, then he will walk wit u, that time u use to group them up
ember arrow
thats a .. collective issue
tiny sable
would be nice if spell reflect forced the caster to get closer to you without silencing them
ember arrow
what?
if theyre silenced they will move towards clsoest target (aggro)
unless they have spells that ignore silenced, or if they cant be silenced
tight tree
Usually i just ask "can someone kick that guy on cast" and my party do it
Or LOS if applicable
solid sun
Yeah, I had problems with multiple caster packs until I decided to open my mouth and ask for some assistance
Communication >>>>>>>
robust urchin
I can not do LOS on beta
Absolutly no way
I seriously need to find a more active guild to do dungeons with
I dread doing random pugs
uneven mason
LOSing in PUGs I've actually made a disclaimer hotkey...
dusk locust
LoS pulls in HoV are basically impossible in pugs
uneven mason
Yeah, my favorite is when I'm doing the meadhall pull in HoV and someone decides its a fantastic idea to get the sents by the door +++ stun immunity FTW
dusk locust
i try to LOS the 4 in the middle outside so they don't pull the sentinels, but dps always jumps them
tiny sable
hum seam to be taking a heck of al ot more damage when i use SB over IP
unless this is the one time i got a bad healer
kind urchin
In pugs I pull the two pack on the left then the sent to clear the area.
timid jay
It all depends on how good your shield is and the relative size of IP
tiny sable
ok just noticed that i have two shield block charges but the CD are stacked so the second charge cd wont kick in until the first one has finished is that how it's supposed to work ?
uneven mason
Yes
tiny sable
the first 15 cecond CD finished then the second one starts
main vault
Misread
uneven mason
That is how charged abilities work Dante
uneven mason
they're both 15
main vault
It's just a CD on "a" charge not that specific charge
uneven mason
but charge 2 cannot charge until charge 1 is completed
tiny sable
so i can keep shield block up 6 seconds out of 30
main vault
12
tiny sable
12*
main vault
But effected by haste
tiny sable
this make it extremely complicated to manage and time
ember arrow
what did?
uneven mason
Basically think of it this way, each charge you use drains 15 liters of water from a 30 liter tank, the tank refills at the rate of 1 liter per second.
ember arrow
you are playing with Anger Management right?
tiny sable
yes
tiny sable
so the two charges is basically 6 seconds uptime with 9 seconds to wait for remaining CD
ember arrow
ye
they extend each others duration
so 2 charges is 12 sec uptime
and they recharge 1 at a time
tiny sable
so having 2 charges is so you can stack them once at the start of the fight
ember arrow
no, you use SB when necessary
main vault
God no
ember arrow
therres no cookie cutter advice like that
if the mobs are stunned for 3 sec, then dont use SB
if youre out of melee range, dont use SB
things liek that
dont stack all your cds, alternate SB with other cds, so theres always something up
warr basically uses their cds on cd, if you dont do that, youre essentially wasting the talent
unless you will need them for a specific scenario
uneven mason
If you've got a big tank buster coming up in 7 seconds, use something else, and sit on SB
etc..
junior igloo
@tiny sable
If you were using SB on cooldown or just randomly, then yes. The 2nd charge would only mean 1 extra charge on a fight. That's how charges work on everything in WoW.
But the real value of 2 charges is that you don't have to use it on cooldown to maximize uptime, you can have 1 ready and still recharging the second one without losing anything.
So if there is a break in a fight, you can get both back, then you can use 2 in a row on a dangerous part of the fight etc.
The second charge gives you more maneuverability on how to use them better
uneven mason
Basically SB charges are only ever wasted if you're sitting on both charges
ember arrow
u always shold have one recharging
uneven mason
^^
ember arrow
unless ofc no blockable dmg is coming in
uneven mason
better way of saying it
ember arrow
but i dont wanna put that disclaimer all the time
uneven mason
Yeah, tanking as a warrior is definetly a more of a "by feel" sorta thing
we have a lot of options
and there isn't really a hard and fast rule of how to use them in all situations
tiny sable
i miss disarm
solid sun
It's a lot different than something like "keep ISB up 100% of the time"
uneven mason
^
tiny sable
i use Demoralize on big pac + to get rage then Block or IP depending if caster or not SF for caster if i cant pummel
uneven mason
Most other tanks have a minor AM that is up ~100% of the time (I think Paladin and DH are the 2 that can't)
uneven mason
Warriors have situational AM, and a fast recycle time on major CDs
tiny sable
but quite easy to have 10)% uptime but then SB isnt always available
uneven mason
We'll have 100% uptime on mitigation, but not nessisarily shield block
uneven mason
No, RC is raw health
solid sun
It's more a buffer
uneven mason
its EHP, but does nothing to lower your damage
^^
it can be an OCRAP button for sure
tiny sable
its damage on heal that dosent get taken of your normal HP
uneven mason
Last Stand is Mitigation because Bolster makes it a 100% block for 15s
You don't get healed by RC
solid sun
When the healers might need a little extra time to recover, RC helps give them that
uneven mason
RC is just a health increase (Current and max)
Last Stand in a heal (the HP stay after LS fades)
uneven mason
Last Stand is mtigation because you should have Bolster Talented
tiny sable
yes i do
uneven mason
Last Stand is probably our single strongest ability.
100% block + 30% increased health for 15s
the HP from it is an actual "heal" which can crit
so you could conceivably heal yourself for 60%
tiny sable
I like impending victory but probably not worth it over into the fray
uneven mason
correct
IV is situationally usful, but ITF and Punish overall are stronger for survivability.
solid sun
I prefer Bounding Stride.
dusk locust
depends on the dungeon. if trash packs are really spread out i'll take the bigger radius on thunder clap
tiny sable
Demo shout takes care of that
dusk locust
how's that
tiny sable
dosent it create threat as its a debuff?
dusk locust
if it does i didn't know, but isn't it also only 10 yards
tiny sable
fells like they nerfed thuinderclap so they could put in a talent to fix it tbh :- )
timid jay
I dont think demo does any threat anymore
signal plover
manic perch
lol
dusk locust
i tell you what though, medivh's piercing missles are no joke. i feel like i need to do some napkin math before i walk into an upper tyrannical again ๐
dusk locust
heh fair enough
i guess we won't have another legion tyrannical
it's what... fortified bursting quaking this week?
uneven mason
yeah
sounds like fun
same combination that was up the first time I tricked my wife into healing a M+, she refuses to run dungeons with me anymore
uneven mason
Could Ignore Bursting as warrior too, I mean what, we had less HP than most DPS, the % damage wasn't all that hard to heal!
solid sun
I like the way you think, Ikarikaze
kind urchin
Even with the reduced ignore pain it still mitigates a lottle bit.
uneven mason
What, tricking my wife into her first time healing on a +15 Bursting/Quaking/Fortified or the fact that Warriors were easier to heal through Bursting than like, a Guardian Druid (Oh god, healing that onmy paladin)
kind urchin
How about necrotic on a guardian druid
uneven mason
"Whats kiting?"
kind urchin
Pretty much the life of a druid with necrotic. At least on my warrior I could stay in for most pulls and be fine.
Run in thrash run away.
uneven mason
To be fair, if you stacked the right legos during the moonbeardays
you could do all the trash without ever being in melee range as a Guardian
kind urchin
Yeah. I never got the shoulders until prepatch though... Tough life.
What's really rough though is I didn't get the bracers on my warrior until the day after I completed the mage tower.
kind urchin
I used gloves and battlelord.
Was actually a pretty sweet setup for it. Figured I'd give that combo a try since belt and gloves wasn't quite enough. So I put on the ring to have vengeance and bv. Worked real nice for damage and survivability.
fallow jetty
Prot warrior has been my main char since wotlk, and for the first time, I'm scared to keep it as my main. I feel the rotation extremely clunky and I've read a lot of bad things like IP isnt even worth using, or revenge turned into heroic strike, only use it on procs. Do you guys feel that bad about prot warrriors? Will it be viable? Or should I just reroll veng DH?
autumn laurel
Prot is good
main vault
I like it at 120
main vault
And if you have to ask about viability it doesn't matter
autumn laurel
Liking the rotation is obviously subjective, though
kind urchin
I've played a warrior tank since Vanilla and nothing is going to change that. They would have to delete protection warrior for me to stop.
autumn laurel
I personally donโt like the current state of devastate and revenge, but itโs a small gripe
sick sentinel
we can use maybe bit of a buff for IP to be more usefull but i liked it in beta did some keys with it and did raid testing
its growing on me compared to live
kind urchin
I do have some minor complaints like others about the rotation but overall it's still good.
sick sentinel
pre-patch isnt good for prot
fallow jetty
i really liked the synergy between IP/focused rage and IP/revenge with the reduction cost talent
but IP inside the GCD, it feels really bad
sick sentinel
vengeance is good designed talent but AM and BV synergy is just so good and tbh i like AM way more
one of the reasons why i play prot its great tbh
kind urchin
IP on the gcd wouldn't feel bad if the rest of the rotation didn't have so many procs for SS.
fallow jetty
yeah, I swapped for BV, I was running the legendary ring to use both talents, tho
uneven mason
So overall, @fallow jetty Protection is a very proactive tanking style, since we can't use IP to "recover" from booboos anymore, which takes some adjusting to. We're in a solid place and in theory would be the tank of choice if mitigation was all that mattered. Other tanks have cheese (Stagger on massive damage, Paladin immunity) and Utility over us though.
autumn laurel
I hope the Azerite trait that gives leech after every IP turns out to be good...would be fun to have some decent sustain too
sick sentinel
we never had sustain tho except legendaries
we just reduce the damage alot higher then other tanks
autumn laurel
I know, and Iโm saying itโd be fun to have it
sick sentinel
its not like bdk can keep self-sustained forever like they used to
we mitigate the damage they heal themself thats it
uneven mason
Well, even without bracers you could stack IP for days and never actually take much "real" damage
But thats gone now
sick sentinel
well yeah IP was way better i agree
uneven mason
it was OP heh
sick sentinel
but they changed tanks overall so cant complain
uneven mason
But now all tanks don't have a "self sustain"
sick sentinel
IP was op at start of legion we had hard time on nh
uneven mason
IE _ you cannot reduce all external healing required to 0
sick sentinel
and ฤฑp was only crazy good in antorus because how much rage we could generate
uneven mason
TOS into ABT
uneven mason
6000RPM!
kind urchin
ToS we were pretty strong too. NH was the bad bad.
sick sentinel
most fun tier sets for a while
uneven mason
Like, just raw magic damage non stop in there
sick sentinel
they did made harjatan bleed mitigated by armor
sick sentinel
its all about design we werent so good but we could be better imo
sick sentinel
i was using block for damage in NH
well thats what i generaly do but i just didnt care used it only for damage
kind urchin
Same here.
30% more SS damage... Yes please.
Because you would have been crazy to run HR in that place.
fallow jetty
when charge doenst give me enought rage to use SB, it also feels bad
sick sentinel
yeah NH gave us another way of thinking about SB tho
fallow jetty
the TC spam with avatar on feels good tho
sick sentinel
we needed block up %100 for some reason and then we started using AM with higher rage we generated and made more sense
kind urchin
It was like a shift... A slow shift. By the end of the xpac I was pretty locked in with BV/AM.
sick sentinel
only thing i wish about prot is maybe changes with GCD and bit of a buff for IP then we gucci
timber nest
how good is riftworld codex/diimas in pre patch compared to memento/pantheon?
sick sentinel
diimas is good never used codex
its still good damage aswell with slow and armor buff
timber nest
well i heard for dmg and shit stat sticks are worse than straight dmg
cuz of the squish
sick sentinel
i wouldnt really care its prepatch and BfA next week
timber nest
for leveling it might help
sick sentinel
but i used diimas for leveling up to 115 or something its still good pull big TC and diimas adds are dead
timber nest
@sick sentinel 225 codex 1 fire proc, 7 hits. 50k per hit, did like 325k on heroic jikun
kind urchin
Riftworld was good before pre patch. Don't know about now.
sick sentinel
dont we have like more damage for old content after we pass it 11 levels or something
solid sun
Is there anything like checkmywow for prot war
sick sentinel
the fuck is that
solid sun
Certain specs provided support for a website called checkmywow
You would upload your logs to it
And the website would give you information back about how you did on each fight and things you needed to work on
ember arrow
RWC is still good
velvet tartan
@autumn laurel i did some math on that azerite trait (bloodsport) the other day and it didn't seem that great
especially because of the amount of leech required now to hit even 1%
also does anyone have a good reference with numbers on how block is working / scaling in bfa?
velvet tartan
is it the stuff in this post http://skyhold.gg/protection/whatsnew ?
green bison
how is prot war looking at 120 if anyone knows?
main vault
Bueno
velvet tartan
block can only be found on shields then (or through special azerite effects) but not on regular gear?
uneven mason
main vault
Correct
uneven mason
Kudos to Marok for properly ID tagging his headers
main vault
In Battle for Azeroth, there is now a "Block" stat on shields. The character sheet now has Block rating, and all of that rating comes from the Block on shields (besides potential bonuses from Azerite and such).ย
velvet tartan
did someone already do some kind of spreadsheet for the various azerite traits and their potential damage mitigation effects?
uneven mason
@green bison Protection looks good at 120, we're rather "gear" reliant, especially shields.
green bison
because block value came back right ?
uneven mason
yes and no, block rating is just 1.5* your shields armor value
uses the same DR table as Armor, but is a separate multiplier (so armor * block * otherDR)
Konayuki, tuning is sitll being done, I'm sure we'll have an azerite list come release, I'm not sure if we have a BiS list just yet. Although Iron fortress is looking solid.
main vault
That Nerf hurt though
uneven mason
yeah
that is true, that IP trait looks good on paper, just not sure its going to be a valuable one due to how infreqent IP is and the 50% reduction cap.
velvet tartan
yeah i want to play around with some numbers, i know it's not final, just wondering if there was something already out there
reading through the post (i've been gone a long time) I'm not sure if i undestand correctly: is blocking now just a flat damage reduction like armor that applies to all incoming damage?
or are there blocked hits and unblocked hits?
stark sage
you still have a block chance
and when you block, your armor is basically increased
the DR cap for a critical block is 85%
well i guess the DR cap from armor is 85%
velvet tartan
gotcha, so the amount of dmg blocked is increased by the block on shield but not the block chance(?)
main vault
Yes
timid jay
It follows the same calculation as armor does but it uses block rating instead of armor
scenic veldt
is ip shit
velvet tartan
okay and block chance is then a static base % (how much?) modified by mastery?
timid jay
block chance is modified by mastery yeah
velvet tartan
so in that post on skyhold it says "if the player has a shield with 4000 Block on it, damage reduction from blocking is ~38.83%" but if i'd have a blockchance of idk 10% then the effective overall damage reduction would be 3.8% or am I misunderstanding?
timid jay
no thats right
Without using SB or bolster that would be the overall DR
(and no crit blocks)
timid jay
Actually gave no idea
velvet tartan
i think it used to be like 5%?
velvet tartan
hmm looks like i've got 16% if i substract the % gained through mastery currently at 110... It says for an evenly matched enemy so idk how that'd scale down against bosses
kind urchin
The block and armor are separate though. Does that mean we can potentially cap at 85% + 85%? I know we'd never get to the armor cap but is that the math?
uneven mason
Yes Guarok that is what it means
kind urchin
I thought so. Just wanted to be sure.
uneven mason
It means that the damage would be 0.15 * 0.15(whateverotherDR) - Absorb = final hit
kind urchin
Block, then armor then final absorbs. So that hasn't changed since the dawn of time. Good deal.
uneven mason
well, damage reduction is multiplicative, so order doesn't matter
absorbs are always subtracted after the mitigated value is determined (since they're equivalent to preemptive healing)
I mean, IP is a % value if you have sufficient absorb to cap out its "per hit" maximum (50%) but its vs the mitigated damage rather than the raw damage.
the new way WC logs displays damage taken for tanks is a good way of reading it
since it shows Raw damage and mitigated then absorbs
its all there in Marok's skyhold thingy I'm sure ๐
fierce juniper
@velvet tartan Base block chance without base mastery or anything is 18%
velvet tartan
@fierce juniper thanks for confirming
spice saddle
Prot warrior looks like it's going to scale the best in bfa
uneven mason
Rather strong assumption
spice saddle
str = armor passive, block mechanic w/crit block and IP
uneven mason
esp since we have a low "growth range" on our critical block
since we'll be going into the first tier nearly capping critical block DR
I mean, we'll scale, but I don't know if we'll scale faster than other tanks.
since all tanks have a primary stat to survivability conversion
spice saddle
yeah druid has agi to armor via ironfur, just not passive
uneven mason
I mean, I'm thinking paladins are going to scale the best, overall because haste is going to juice their SOTR uptime.
spice saddle
thing is it's going to be hard to get 33% haste even at ilvl450+
ember arrow
Why specifically 33%
spice saddle
the ilvl scaling on secondaries is just way different
right now at 950ish, it's pretty easy to hit 33% haste or w/e secondary you want with minimal tweaks
In bfa at ilvl 475ish it's much much harder and if you do your other secondaries are just super gimped.
timid jay
You do realize how ratings work right...?
spice saddle
yeah and unless they are adjusted lvl 120 using "high ilvl" gear with more focus into primary stats will have significantly lower secondaries than 110 using "high ilvl" gear
timid jay
The main reasons for lower secondaries so far in BfA is relatively higher ratings needed per % and no secondaries on azerite gear
But yeah
It'll get higher over the course of the expansion as usual
kind urchin
We might be near cap on block for crit block in the first tier but the base block without crit block will scale nicely. Which I think is good.
timid jay
Going by what blizz has said they are going to increase the K value for block and armor going into later tiers
So we might not be able to hit the cap at all
spice saddle
Yeah makes sense it's starting at k=6300 iirc
uneven mason
its a good tuning knob
lone cobalt
pardon my ignorance, what is this K ?
spice saddle
so for a 120-123 npc the k value is 6300
there is also a K value for NPC's when you hit them usually called Kp
which oddly enough the Kp value for 120 player vs 123 boss went down compared to a 110 player vs a 113 boss. Which is probably why physical dps specs are doing so well atm on beta.
it's a flat ~5% lower multiplier than it is in legion so physical dps specs that arent bleed focused are in a much better spot.
imagine its the reason fury/combat rogues are top of the melee pack.
kind urchin
Top that with group buffs and enemy debuffs that they added back to the game.
spice saddle
yeah makes sense
So i have a question, block and armor both cap at reducing an attack by 85%. Does that stack? Like could a 100 dmg attack be reduced to 15 dmg via armor then down to 2.25 dmg via block?
and does that work with say the high totem damage reduction as well?
fierce juniper
DR is multiplicative
so no it doesnt work like that
If you had 85% DR from Armor and 85% DR from a block, and those were your only sources of DR, your total DR would be 97.75%
Which in that specific example does equal the 2.25 damage taken like you said, but you're going to have other sources of DR.
stark sage
what other sources, i think in this example armor and block are accounted for
and nothing else would be applied
fierce juniper
No I'm just saying thinking about DR where X DR is applied first and then Y DR is applied isn't the proper way to look at DR. They're all "applied" at the same time, since it's all multiplicative.
I mean in this case you reach the same answer, but I'm just making a point.
stark sage
oh i see
kind urchin
I just calculated 6 random numbers at 85% dr and then that total at 85% dr. Then those same numbers all at 97.75% dr and all the answers matched. They come out the same reguardless.
uneven mason
That's how multiplicative math works
Or what Balsaq said
this fucking common core crap has to go
kids hitting Azeroth without knowing how to do algebra
kind urchin
Yeah. So they both were doing the same thing in a different way with the same answers arguing that the former wasn't correct.
stark sage
nah i just thought marok was referring to another source of DR not present in the example
uneven mason
No, Marok was just pointing out that a situation where Armor and Block were the only sources of DR was unlikely ๐
stark sage
like some mystery value
grim prism
Yeah it was kind of a roundabout explanation lol
uneven mason
And yeah, that there is an "order" to them hehe
grim prism
Same result either way though, like he said
uneven mason
mmhmm
Although with block being its own table, time for warriors to get the fundamentals of combat tables changed again?
Who remembers Cataclysm block
Pepperridge Farm remembrs Cataclysm block.
main vault
Fuck math is hard
kind urchin
Right?
main vault
I bet there is a math property that states it doesn't matter what order you multiply then it'll all be the same lol
timid jay
Yup
main vault
Associative Property:ย When three or more numbers are multiplied, the product is the same regardless of the grouping of the factors
main vault
I feel like I'm teaching again lol
dusk locust
i think you're looking for Commutative property
ember arrow
and we';re glad you do nexii
main vault
That only works for two numbers
timid jay
no
main vault
Yes
dusk locust
3 x 5 x 6 = 6 x 5 x 3
stark sage
๐ค
main vault
Commutative property:ย When two numbers are multiplied together, the product is the same regardless of the order of the multiplicands.
stark sage
basic math is hard
main vault
two
timid jay
I mean
stark sage
okay now use your brain and see what happens when you have 3
timid jay
regardless it still stands
main vault
Above two it no longer falls under that and falls under the associative
velvet tartan
waiting for a youtube series on basic math for wow now
dusk locust
khan academy should use blocking and armor as examples
main vault
Not so much math, but explaining damage reduction and etc
uneven mason
It gets hard when you add in other operators ๐
uneven mason
totes
dusk locust
0 * 0 = Superzero
velvet tartan
i've seen people fail statistics classes over much easier concepts lol
calm cove
โ
vocal nimbus
Nice game ak
calm cove
ye
junior igloo
@stark sage @timid jay
Multiplication is a binary operation.
You need both cumulative and associative properties if you want to expand it to multiply 3 numbers in any order that are also put in any order.
(Obviously it works, but it wouldn't work if multiplication was only cumulative.)
grim prism
Holy shit this is hurting my brain
arguing semantics over something you literally just googled and pulled the first result for
This channel needs a math officer
Shiggy diggy fellas
calm cove
I mean that is an important detail
solid sun
Captain NapkinMath to the rescue?
uneven mason
Sarri is busy playing Halflife3 in the future Balsaq
calm cove
but not knowing you can multiply in different orders is a special thing
grim prism
The associative property is NOT just the commutative property with 3+ operands
ember arrow
who flippin cares
grim prism
Nexii cares
prisma crane
well, in math you could argue that often semantics do matter
grim prism
Then you should ensure you are correct before trying to do so lol
prisma crane
we'll file all of this under the #protection TIL subthread
stark sage
i blame marok
prisma crane
i blame Cosmo
solid sun
I blame the napkins
grim prism
@main vault https://www.purplemath.com/modules/numbprop.htm
Just gonna leave this here
shut summit
๐ข
grim prism
calm cove
13 24?
prisma crane
qwik maffs
sick sentinel
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strong forum
sephuz and boots
sick sentinel
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spice saddle
Yeah what i'm wondering is say you have a highmounten tauren with enough stam it reduces damage by say 100 via rugged tenacity. 85% armor and 85% block (capped) would they reduce a 1000 hit down to 22.5 and it's completely negated by rugged tenacity? or is the rugged tenacity applied before armor dr? Basically just how that works. Theres no order of operations unless it would be PEDMAS?
stark sage
well i dont know how its coded, but absorbs are applied after reductions
uneven mason
rugged is applied to the mitigated damage, not sure if there is a "limit" on the mitigation that rugged can supply though (possibly 85%)
Drac, you'll find that PEDMAS Is indeed how computers do math, whither the programmers write it so that it makes sense to the computer is a different story.
programming languages have a few more operands they can apply to a formula. But Math works as math
solid sun
I'm still trying to get accustomed to using my CDs properly and y'all have all graduated to math professor status
uneven mason
When the math doesn't work, you get fun things like "divide by zero"
kind urchin
Unless Blizz found a way to change math ๐ค
uneven mason
and "object reference not set to an instance of an object"
kind urchin
Or that.
uneven mason
So I guess to get myself back on track, Absorbs are subtraction, so they are applied last in order of operations. However the order that absorbs are used I'm not sure on (IP 50% before divine shield?)
solid sun
Wait, Divine counts as an aborb?
kind urchin
The absorbs don't multiply and get calculated at the same time do they?
grim prism
You mean like as far as which particular absorb takes damage first?
kind urchin
I think thats what we're wondering.
solid sun
I would imagine externals are used before internals
grim prism
You'd have to test it
solid sun
Except for something like Divine. That probably should supercede anything
stark sage
i would think it is in order of application
grim prism
You would think
uneven mason
That is possible, its just that since IP is a % and Divine is a 100% until used.
grim prism
But with Blizzard it's a crapshoot
uneven mason
So that's a legit question I suppose
grim prism
Yeah
uneven mason
since that'd make Disc our healer of choice IMHO
I mean, its minor
but still something ๐
solid sun
I wonder if the damage mitigation aspect of IP would only apply to the damage it specifically absorbs or any damage provided it is active
uneven mason
I mean its a miniscule difference for the msot part
if IP is taken before divine shield, you can fully negate the damage, if IP is taken after (or at all) it will be nearly nothing.
solid sun
But in the Disc Priest situation, if PW:Shield is used before IP, you'd get that 50% mitigation for a fair bit longer
idk, maybe it doesn't matter. Was kinda just thinking out loud.
uneven mason
Yeah, I mean, I mumble about it, but in the end its a miniscule amount of difference
especially since no CD on PWS
glass kernel
Is a really high Shadow singed fang worth using?
undone sun
No
it depends on your options but 90% of the time, no.
weary notch
so I'm guessing it's pretty safe to assume at this point that our stat priority and best talents won't change at 120?
undone sun
no
everything is subject to change
prepatch isn't a strong indicator on what will show in live and raiding
clear sapphire
@weary notch your best bet is to see their consitancy throughout the expansions. Past behavior is usually a pretty good indication of future behavior.
grim prism
frank mantle
what races are preffered for prot? ive always been a cow and debating between highmountain cow and orc
orc for looks mainly, hightmountain is probs best for min max
broken kite
Orc is the only choice
undone sun
pretty marginal differences anyways, HMT is likely the strongest defensively while belf is strong for keys still
broken kite
What Thyme really means is roll orc
glacial sage
everyone knows that you should reroll goblin
glacial sage
Goblin master race
broken kite
Blood elves really shouldn't be able to be warriors
undone sun
if you're going for looks, go orc
vocal nimbus
undead
chilly brook
Wadu hek
Blood elves are dope, and youโre telling me someone like lorthemar shouldnโt exist?
frank mantle
he shoulda went to the tree and burned
frank mantle
we cant be zandalari for probs like a good few months after launch
chilly brook
Prolly true unfortunately
frank mantle
at least until 8.1
chilly brook
Makes me sad
They should have been on launch
Honestly stupid that alliance get their dark iron dwarves basically immediately and we donโt get the big reveal race until later on
astral crystal
you still need exalted with 7th legion
and horde gets theirs at exalted with whatever the rep is called
robust urchin
The Morally Greys i believe is the faction called
craggy harness
what is the change in 8.0 i should be looking for regarding mouseover macros
craggy harness
(read: my intercept isn't working right anymore)
spark hamlet
What lego combos are ppl going with for lvling?
sick sentinel
HMT gay af antler horns tho kms
undone sun
@spark hamlet belt/boots/shoulders probably, fastest set
dawn fractal
you cant be zandalari because its going to require rep and they want to give you time to build that rep.....
glass kernel
Did a relatively low Upper K Keystone today and i chould be wrong but i think SR is bugged OR just not working on mediv his piercing mis went straight trough it unreflected OR mitigated is this a known issue?
weary notch
I jus realized today that ITF stacks increase boot movement speed, as they should. Still going from 138% movement speed at one stack to 150% at 5 stacks is pretty awesome
undone sun
@glass kernel it'll only reflect the first missile, the rest go through since we lost the unlimited reflect trait
final mist
Yeah, Medivh is a big 
since we lost Reflective Plating.
glass kernel
Feelsbadman was my first prepatch tanking exp and ngl i felt more durable on my 215 ilvl havoc geared alt in tankspec than my warrior with 255ilvl hope its better 120 cuz love to tank aswell 
gleaming thicket
anyone from beta have any idea how our damage compares to other tanks at 120
glass kernel
You guys brought protwarrior to mythic and do you manage or is it a struggle?
gleaming thicket
Feels pretty good having demo up so often
Blood felt all right I just canโt give up the mobility of my warrior
sick sentinel
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gleaming thicket
Refuse to play vdh cause they suck
sick sentinel
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undone sun
stop
sick sentinel
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sick sentinel
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shut summit
prof brez item available in bfa compared to not in legion
doesnt make it harder to come by
sick sentinel
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glacial sage
I use it because of the toys, blingtron, and teleports
sick sentinel
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sick sentinel
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glacial sage
my mains that I raid on are always engineers
sick sentinel
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glacial sage
honestly I get enough from order hall missions
sick sentinel
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sick sentinel
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glacial sage
I do that and a little bit of herb/ore farming if I need some extra, but most of the time I'm well over
amber siren
I mean it's not surprising we're ranked pretty low for M+ but again, it's frustrating people will read that and go 'prot warriors can't tank my +2 bcs JB said they suck' all over again
sick sentinel
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glacial sage
We can still do +18s pretty well
sick sentinel
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sick sentinel
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rocky tiger
Anyone else finding prot frustrating as hell to play since 8.0?
Tried doing heroic antorus on sunday and at 244 was dying to aggramar if I wasn't ridiculously perfect on cooldown use and block weaving. But threat was shithouse.
amber siren
I'd recommend looking at the guide in the pins because those aren't issues you should be having
sick sentinel
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@rocky tiger Funny enough, I found prot frustrating as hell since IP was introduced. Wanted to try going back to prot with BfA though. ๐
rocky tiger
The threat wasn't an issue, I was easily ahead of our DK. Just a frustrating rotation to play, I'm finding, and feeling considerably squishier. I did read the guides, I'll have to review logs to make sure my rotations and CD usage are correct. Certainly not doing any crazy tricks like 20+ stacks of deadly scythe on heroic argus anymore :(
I hate feeling like last stand is an either/or use now, like, can be a block filler or a cooldown but not both
sick sentinel
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weary notch
who wrote that top 5 bullshit?
limber tulip
Jdotb
weary notch
who is that?
limber tulip
And blizzard has been pushing for tanks to be more healer reliant @sick sentinel fyi
One of the top m+ healers
Plays for method (black/orange) and was in the MDI
limber tulip
Sounds good to me
main vault
I hate you
limber tulip
Lol
weary notch
well, he's like SCO. He's playing a game the rest of us don't play
limber tulip
Just MEMEING bro
sick sentinel
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limber tulip
:4head:
sick sentinel
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limber tulip
Smh
sick sentinel
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limber tulip
Why do i come here if I canโt use my nitro
main vault
I know it's so disappointing
tiny sphinx
things look very different when you're looking down your nose at the world
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