I don't see Sal....time for some bear Memes?
#protection
uneven mason
signal plover
Nah bear meme is dead
astral crystal
bear meme died when we literally became the bear for a few weeks during alpha/beta
signal plover
Cept without FR
somber dragon
DA BEAR!!!
solid sun
Ikarikaze, are you going to get to prot Uldir? Or does it look like you'll be going fury
wild hamlet
Hey, prot seems super clunky atm, is that standard now or just because low haste?
wild hamlet
Yea
wide juniper
It's a definite change to the rotation, mashing devastate as a filler.
wild hamlet
It feels clunky as fuck to press IP or Revenge to try and dump rage
wide juniper
But I don't feel like it's 'clunky'. I feel like fights are front loaded with CDs though, Avatar/DS
GCD made that fun.
eternal solstice
Just gonna need to time your IP and sprinkle shield blocks, I don't see it as clunky either
Coming from rapid fire IP pressing to a GCD I can see how people would say it feels that way though
dusk locust
it felt clunky at first to me but it went away after some practice
wide juniper
I spent way too much time at the dummies
Which, yeah, won't get full rage gen there, but still helped a bunch with the new rotation.
dusk locust
i did the same
astral crystal
god damn blackout combo is good
imagine if devastate could empower shield slam Kappa
eternal solstice
Can't neglect my Warrior, but Brew is my alt tank
wide juniper
That's my goal as well @eternal solstice
astral crystal
yeah same, idont love them really, prot warr main 5ever etc, but the toolkit is really nice
eternal solstice
Will be leveling it beside my war, will be switching back and forth for what the raid needs
Just sucks, I had high hopes for Prot War being in the top 3
Maybe we can shine later on
astral crystal
top 3 really doesnt matter much
wild hamlet
What's tank ranking consensus right now? Monk, DK and Druid still top?
astral crystal
the SCOMEGALUL points that separate the top tanks is minimal
eternal solstice
Raid I believe Monk/Druid/Pally?
uneven mason
The ranking changes situationally?
acoustic sparrow
It's all conjecture and guessing. Nobody knows for sure.
uneven mason
All tanks will be able to complete mythic content without being a burden, barring situations where some special utility is dearly needed.
also #tuningisntdone
Expect final #s to be in 3weeks after release
kind urchin
I have 5% more health than you making me the better tank. I mitigate 5% more damage than you dumb dumb... We're equal. Thats pretty much what this argument sounds like.
eternal solstice
There wasn't an argument
undone sun
EHP vs. HP
uneven mason
😄 but yeah, tanks are very close, play what you like (or your guild wants) if you're the type of player that it matters, you're going to have all 5 leveled anyway
undone sun
if you have to ask it doesn't matter
sick sentinel
yeah
uneven mason
If they want to know what tanking spec is FUN
While that is personal preference more or less, the answer is "None"
wide juniper
Shockwave makes me more fun for me right now lol
uneven mason
yeah Tanking is back to being an acquired taste for sure.
That goodie bag is up like 90% of the time now
Cause everyone who was all "Tanking is easy!" prior to 8.0 hitting are playing their DPS specs.
grim prism
Did someone say EHP
uneven mason
Balsaq and his napkins are back
grim prism
Boy howdy do I have a stack of napkins for you
undone sun
👋
uneven mason
Justi n time for lunch
solid sun
Can I ask why you think tanking is back to being an acquired taste?
grim prism
I think its fair to say that certain tanks will handle certain content better than others, even on the scale of individual boss fights within a tier
frank mantle
I mean that’s always been and always will be the case
cosmic cargo
8.0 made tanking easier tbf
frank mantle
Unless they basically gave all specs the same shit
cosmic cargo
now if it's as enjoyable is a personal preference
wide juniper
I love the type of focus that comes with tanking
frank mantle
Noob tanks will cry about threat changes I’m sure
cosmic cargo
for raiding threat changes are near irrelevant tbh
grim prism
Sco's list is essentially just his rationalization for why he is picking a certain class to main for that tier, and saying X is just better than Y kind of stifles any chance for discussion. People who need to be told what to play are generally not good enough players to really excel at ANY spec imo
frank mantle
God forbid tab targeting is kinda back omg so hard
wide juniper
lol straight down camera and tab
grim prism
And I personally dont mind the tanking changes, Legion tanking was a fucking snoozefest
frank mantle
Sco’s list is for shit imo so many memes were made
cosmic cargo
it'll be easier though
strong forum
exactly
grim prism
Same as it every tier moon. Lol
cosmic cargo
i don't know what you mean by it was snoozefest, it'll be so even more
frank mantle
He made that list only playing 1 spec at 120
grim prism
"But he said X so why are you still playing prot"
strong forum
^
frank mantle
His guild carries him so that’s why they are making him play bear and why he ranked it 2nd
Because it’s so fucking easy to play
strong forum
"fuck good, i want BDK because i was told so"
grim prism
I saw Sco alt-run nighthold on his prot war
He is very experienced and knowledgeable, but he is not the last word in tanking lol
solid sun
I mean, I think it's fair to say that Sco is talented as a player even if you disagree with his ranking opinions. No need to falsely take a dump on the guy
strong forum
that much is true
grim prism
Im not trying to shit on sco specifically
frank mantle
He’s not a bad player, but he’s not someone to go to for reliable information
grim prism
Moreso people who interpret his tier list as gospel and not just one man's educated opinion
strong forum
im curious as to how the community of his would react if he jebaited everyone and made a false tier list
if they would actually find out or blindly follow his advice
uneven mason
So I said Tanking is an acquired taste because a solid # of tanks just up and disappeared, its not as fast paced and easy as it was, folks who generally main tanks are doing just fine, but hte people who are DPS most of the time and dabbled in tanking have just stopped doing it for the most part.
frank mantle
Slootbag is much more knowledgeable and honest
strong forum
^
grim prism
Sloot is also an active member of the community so people trust him more
solid sun
I definitely prefer Sloot to Sco.
grim prism
Sco doesnt really do panels or lurk discords afaik
uneven mason
Hence the gold bag being up for random queue being available like 24/7 ( at least when I can play)
strong forum
i think pretty much everyone does
frank mantle
His new UI he’s making 🔥
frank mantle
You blind or something lol
grim prism
@uneven mason i feel like a lot of people got spooked by GCD changes and secondary squish hurting tanks across the board
frank mantle
You can change the sizing in like 2 minutes
strong forum
yea but i need flashy things to see
grim prism
Definitely not the end of the world
wide juniper
Link to his ui?
strong forum
frank mantle
It’s not done yet but it’s incredible
grim prism
They have to make you feel shitty at 110 otherwise 120 wouldnt feel good by comparison, yaknow? Lol
frank mantle
And so in depth. He even coded weak auras to every trinket available in the game to track them as well
strong forum
that part is amazing yes, but for all the rest i wouldnt be able to see it in fight
wide juniper
circles are gross
strong forum
yea
frank mantle
It takes some getting used to
strong forum
i cant even properly pay attention to my own WAs
wide juniper
Less is def more
strong forum
im still looking at my action bars
frank mantle
Also for the circle nerds I’m pretty sure he’s also releasing a square version. Could be wrong
grim prism
Lol, a square WA for square people
wide juniper
What's on your bars that you could possible have to look at?
grim prism
ICDs
grim prism
Totally agree a WA for SW etc is not necessary
frank mantle
Aura’s are better then you can hide bars and open visibility
strong forum
i know, but its giga weird
grim prism
Its personal pref of course
undone sun
i mean, it's almost entirely subjective
strong forum
yea
frank mantle
I mean if you can’t get used to it then it’s not for you
undone sun
i recently as of a couple months hid my action bars in combat and just show weakauras
strong forum
my UI
frank mantle
But if you can you’ll have more awareness which ultimately will help gameplay performance. Even if the difference is slight
wide juniper
And if you really want to show some bars with your ICDs, modify those bars to only show in combat
grim prism
I just had mine tell me the status of my active mitigations and cue for DPS rotation. No cooldowns or anything. If youre raiding at a reasonably high level, you probably already know exactly when to cast CDs before you even pull
wide juniper
well, in combat and out of combat, but hide the rest in combat
grim prism
See even that is way too much for me lol
hollow pine
I spent years refining my ui, too old to change it now
strong forum
im only showing WA in Combat, and have GCD displayed aswell
grim prism
Too bad it all stopped working in 7.2 and I havent fixed it yet kappa
grim prism
Okay guy
solid sun
I wonder when Sloot's warrior wa will be available
grim prism
Well when you need to actually go in and fix handcoded variables it becomes more of a chore than just messing with some templates
frank mantle
@solid sun when he’s done all the tank specs he will release them all
grim prism
They changed the syntax for initiating multiple variables at once in 7.2
frank mantle
He’s done with pally warrior and dh. Working on monk currently
grim prism
And i am not a coder by trade
solid sun
Balsaq, are you even speaking English.
grim prism
So its been a back burner thing
solid sun
What is going on
grim prism
Just lower-mid-level WA speak
solid sun
All I know how to do is import a WA and then move it around as I see necessary. =X
grim prism
Thats generally all you need
frank mantle
He should be finished in about a week or so. Definitely before launch. It’ll take a bit to set up and download all the custom art but it’ll be totally worth
hollow pine
My ui is optimized for tunnel vision, can get all the info in one glance
grim prism
But when you finally think of something that would be nice to have, and you can't do it with the stock triggers...
old zephyr
I am usually quite good at coding, but wa stuff
Man I have no idea how to do it
grim prism
Its all JSON
wowprogramming.com has the full WoW API
Just find snippets that are similar to what you want and tweak them to make them fit
Best way to learn is by doing imo
Even if youre faking it at first lol
Fucking love me some WAs
solid sun
That sounds like it would take an arduous amount of time to figure out
old zephyr
I tried this, failed
solid sun
Especially if you're going in dry with no knowledge at all.
grim prism
It would, and thats why I dont have prot WAs right now ha
uneven mason
JSON is pretty damn human readable
it really doesn't take long to wrap your head around
uneven mason
No heh
grim prism
Once you understand what you are looking at it makes a lot more sense
Kind of? Its a markdown language if i'm not mistaken
uneven mason
I mean, its a way of displaying code that is easier on none programmer types
yeah, its like XML
old zephyr
I tried with the api open, but Man how am I supposed tous know if I need the 13th cached variable orthe 16th?
uneven mason
it structures the attributes
grim prism
It is object-oriented like C++
uneven mason
it is object oriented, but its no where near as complex as C++
solid sun
If you jack something up would you have to repair WoW? lol
Or can you just delete and try again
grim prism
No, just your WAs
uneven mason
#1 rule when coding - make backups
grim prism
WA only ever touches the UI, which is designed by blizz in a way that you cant break the game by breaking the Ui
This is why you cant make a WA explicitly cast a spell or use an item
The two are separated by design
uneven mason
WoWs UI and Engine are 2 diff layers, I mean, you can make enough LUA errors looping to crash WOW (or at least seriously FUBAR your performance) but it wont break the game
sick sentinel
Question for all- I was doing a Nelth last night, and with SB and IP going, Dargul’s hammer smash would hit me for nearly 40% of my health.
Is this normal? I don’t feel like anything else has hit like this so far
solid sun
What key level was it
grim prism
Isnt that fire damage @sick sentinel?
sick sentinel
15, I believe
grim prism
You mean magma smash or whatever?
sick sentinel
Yeah the one that will knock you back unless you have AM up
grim prism
Its been a long-ass time but I'm fairly sure that's magic damage
Molten Crash
Its nature damage
Doubled if not using AM
So you want to SR that shit
solid sun
SB + SR
grim prism
Shouldnt need to active mitigate it if SR reflects it
solid sun
Won't it still knock you back?
sick sentinel
I’m sure I’ll run another before tyrannical rotates off
solid sun
Maybe try just SR by itself
grim prism
I would ^
solid sun
And if it knocks you back then go SB + SR
grim prism
See what happens lol
uneven mason
You need to stack SB and SR for it
uneven mason
I'd also suggest Demo shouting on top of it
uneven mason
SR doesn't reflect it, its a "targeted AE"
sick sentinel
wheeze
sick sentinel
Maybe I should have just taken off my shoulder pads
solid sun
Isn't everyone?
That's like the new community thing
I already had my shoulder pads hidden, though.
Ahead of the curve
grim prism
Well at the very least you will get a damage reduction from SR, so even if it won't reflect you are definitely going to want to run it
Not much else to use it on unless you fuck up spikes
In which case god help you regardless
solid sun
Yeah, the answer there is to just not mess up spikes
sick sentinel
Legit question- how do you fuck up the spikes?
grim prism
Holy shit, youre right
@sick sentinel he can smash them with one of his other abilities
Maybe it was molten crash
solid sun
The fissure he creates
grim prism
Yeah
sick sentinel
Yeah- I was just trying to imagine how you would accomplish it lol
solid sun
And also the golems can run into them and break them
sick sentinel
I had a boosted healer try to stand beside me during Rokmora and I was like NOOOOOOOOOOOO
only way you learn, I suppose. But man I’ve seen some rough stuff as people come back for the xpac.
old zephyr
At least smash from behind when you want t'ont go melee as Hpal
sick sentinel
[F for the Pally]
And thanks @grim prism I almost choked on my Jimmy John’s cuz mah mastery lol lol lol
grim prism
Hahah 🙌
sick sentinel
When will the Azerite trait guides start popping up? I figure a lot of that stuff is settled by now, right?
Or are we expecting one final patch before the guides go live?
undone sun
Likely when BFA drops, pointless until then
uneven mason
Tuning will be done until more people roll monks, erm, I mean until Mythic raids release.
sick sentinel
Oh ok! I was just looking for lunch time reading @undone sun
You may be my mod, Thyme! But not my supervisor!!!
If I wanna waste my time at Jimmy Johns on lunch by god let me! 😂😂😂😂
solid sun
No, I want to play warrior tank and that's it.
None of the other ones are popping out to me.
uneven mason
reminds me I need to stop slacking and get my newest warrior leveled before the Xpac hits...
wide juniper
Alt warriors? WutFace
solid sun
Leveling as Fury has been a blast, tbh
I'm leveling a Void Elf as fury
Fury in general looks amazingly fun.
uneven mason
Yeah, fury leveling is amazing, Arms is hit or miss, some pulls I feel like a bulldozer other pulls like a Ugo trying to get up hill with a 400lb man at the wheel
solid sun
I've been playing around with it doing the Darkshore Daily world quests
uneven mason
Prot leveling is solid, but is REALLY slow
solid sun
I'm probably going to Fury for BfA leveling.
uneven mason
would but I'll be at work until after the raid tests are done ><
Notsure if @shut summit is gonna do any raidtesting, but he generally does streams.
solid sun
Do they always test the raids by having specific times for raid testing?
uneven mason
generally
solid sun
Any particular reason?
uneven mason
its so they can have a solid amount of folks in place to monitor data
Yeah, same reason why you schedule any sort of thing at work
They can tweek things real time this way.
I mean, the raid testing is for THEM not us 😛
Also, since its a limited resource pool (beta servers) My guess is they give the instance shards the lions share of resources while doing raid testing, which they wouldn't normally do for beta.
old zephyr
Wait a second rhino, weren't you like the Hpal guide writer in legion ? You are playing war now ?
frigid pawn
Nice echo effect
solid sun
No, that wasn't me.
shy pilot
Am I doing something wrong or is it just the way it is now, I can't survive against lesser sparring dummy for a minute 😕
uneven mason
You're 110
its 123
Oh the lesser
nm
Uh, Warriors lack self sustain, sparring dumy is a poor example
grim prism
The squish still fucked up the lesser
uneven mason
yeah true
shy pilot
ok because before I could survive on the big one much longer than I can on the lesser one now 😕
grim prism
The big one is scarier, just keep tanking that one and dont tell anyone else that the lesser one stomps you
wild atlas
I know it’s been mentioned 19274792917373.667 (repeating of course) that warrior doesn’t suck. I need data
I need napkin math
No one in my guild is believing me that warr is still strong because “dude everyone is talking about how warrior and vengeance are bottom tier”
So they want me to roll Monk or DK. Triggering me man
Come thruuuuu boys. I need to shut up the haters
charred vigil
I'm going through the same thing man
stark sage
well do they have any valid points as to why you shouldnt play warrior, and why they think it is bottom tier
grim prism
Aside from "sco's list said so"
There's no point trying to counter a baseless argument with facts
charred vigil
my guild just thinks they will be harder to heal than other tanks....no numbers to back that up though
stark sage
warriors wont be noticeably harder to heal
wild atlas
Well there’s a push to get a DK involved for add Brez. Monk because Monk is strong again. And they rag on warrior since the birth of man because they’ve watched too many tiers with Bear and Paladin cheese mechanics.
grim prism
They have a valid point with other tanks having good utilities that are missing from our toolkit
wild atlas
None of them play warrior, so yea it’s baseless. I’m just tired of having to defend myself. My output shut them up in Tomb and Antorus. But it’s still baseless shit
undone sun
🤣
grim prism
Lmfao
onyx vessel
:scoChamp:
grim prism
There's your counterargument
stark sage
@wild atlas if your team is really hurting for utility, then perhaps they have a point. but warriors still bring rally and shout
grim prism
But yeah, where they have tools that prot is missing, prot also has a wealth of personal CDs and a very high mitigation %
stark sage
but really you should look to other members for utlity like brez
onyx vessel
Warriors are solid for utility for raiding
grim prism
Right, brez is not a tanks job lol
onyx vessel
Sure lack of self healing
opaque pagoda
Everybody was hemming and hawing about that in legion, in my guild anyway, and overall it turned out fine
grim prism
Lack of selfheal is offset by raw mitigation
onyx vessel
Who cares in raiding
grim prism
Prot war is objectively the most mobile tank in the game
sweet kettle
dh hello?
onyx vessel
In mythics its slightly more important
grim prism
DH has what, two leaps and a teleport or some shit?
undone sun
just two leaps
grim prism
One heroic leap and a charge clears that entire distance hello
sweet kettle
2 leaps and double jump
grim prism
In less time too
stark sage
lets imagine that warrior is objectively bottom tier, then that means tank balance is pretty damn good because we arent going to be much worse than the top tier
grim prism
Right
onyx vessel
They are basicly equal in mobility
opaque pagoda
Doing mechanics correctly and staying reactive to changing situations is always more valuable than a few percentage points of survivability, assuming you’re not shooting for world firsts
Protection still sucks right now, but that’s a different conversation
sweet kettle
warrior needs target to use half of his mobility while DH doesnt
dusk locust
don't need a target for darkflight 😛
stark sage
complaining about DH mobility 
its like their calling card
onyx vessel
Dh you cant
grim prism
Bounding stride OP
sweet kettle
nobody is complaining
grim prism
But even if you want to call DH and prot equal mobility-wise... compare that to DK or pally lol
onyx vessel
Ppl complaining about prot warriors being weak lul
grim prism
Better hope you have stampeding roar my d00d
onyx vessel
They were stupid at end of legion
undone sun
i've had the same pathing problems on a dh that i've had with warrior, the only 2 benefits i see dh has is further overall range with two charges and a no minimum range
sweet kettle
the only problem i have with prot is that IP is on the GCD and isnt that strong
onyx vessel
Cuz of there shear mutgation
Its used as a rage dump
Not to rely on
100% block is always insane early xpac
Sure 0 healing
stark sage
tank mitigation is being more or less homogenized with a strong primary AM offGCD and a weak secondary AM onGCD
onyx vessel
But if you have a bad healer groups gonna suffer regardless of the tank
wild atlas
I’ve never had any issue clearing content. They’re just being trendy
sweet kettle
the healer cant always be on top of a tanks ass especially in m+
onyx vessel
No means bad for anything
stark sage
yeah its not like you are in danger of death if you arent being pumped full of healing constantly
wild atlas
I love warrior and always have
stark sage
its just that you will eventually die due to no sustain
sweet kettle
i mean for the standar m+ and mythic raiding everything works
grim prism
Well @wild atlas
onyx vessel
Gives time for healer to catch you
grim prism
Unless their trendiness is getting them into world r100 territory
sweet kettle
people just pick the best for the job depending on that they are doing
grim prism
Then maybe they should stop tryharding and let people enjoy the game
Prot is perfectly viable
grim prism
Someone said it's bad and people want to bandwagon because it's prepatch and ther is nothing to do
onyx vessel
Dont play
wild atlas
It’s not. It’s just ragging. They’re not top100 talent and they know it. It’s just trendy/bandwagon bullshit.
sweet kettle
the balance in m+ really stops at the 10+ or 15+ mark after that some specs do well and then its pure chaos
onyx vessel
If theres nothing to do
grim prism
Then keep playing prot and tell them it will be fine
wild atlas
Yea. There’s something to be said for cheesing mechanics
onyx vessel
Yeah
wild atlas
But I enjoy Prot. With it’s play mechanics it’ll never be too high or too low
grim prism
Just meet them halfway and race change to an allied with an OP racial
onyx vessel
In the case of KJ they had too overtuned as fk
wild atlas
Yea. One of those moments where I was truly happy to be a warrior.
charred vigil
you wont
sweet kettle
let me believe
cause is boring af to watch the same comps being played by different people
undone sun
it's boring as fuck to watch in general ¯_(ツ)_/¯
sweet kettle
some of the pulls they do are pretty nice
but they need to balance the specs cause some specs are objectively better than others
errant ledge
Thoughts on the darkmoon deck going from 300 ilvl to 355 vs tank trinkets out of BFA dungeons? Im really liking some of the BFA dung trinkets for tanks, but just curious if anyone has played around with the new deck to compare
dusky sentinel
Every time I see people discuss who the best tank is they always mention the spells and AM part. Its kinda like everyone forgets we have a shield. And it actually counts
stark sage
prot isnt even that bad vs magic compared to the other tanks
magic AM was gutted across the board
dusky sentinel
I havent bothered to watch the rankings video. But why do they say monks and druid are op? Cause I dont really see it. Stagger is kinda nice. Ill admitt to that
stark sage
stagger is really good
undone sun
incredibly strong
acoustic sparrow
chances are monk gets nerfed if it truly is as strong as its public perception.
dusky sentinel
But its like passive strong. If u get into a situation like KJ where a debuff lands and u get double swiped. Stagger cant save u there.
But its like passive strong. If u get into a situation like KJ where a debuff lands and u get double swiped. Stagger cant save u there.
But its like passive strong. If u get into a situation like KJ where a debuff lands and u get double swiped. Stagger cant save u there.
shut summit
undone sun
📵
uneven mason
Stagger is amazingly powerful vs large bursts of damage, nickle and dime situations its not better or worse than other tanking mechanics (Monks insane avoidance comes into play however)
That is probably why folks like Monks @dusky sentinel Because stagger does give them the "error forgiveness" like if they mess up, stagger is more likely to save them from dying, same with druids passive large HP pool and high armor mitigation, its more or less going to keep them from dying at any given moment, than if a warrior messes up and gets chunked because we didn't have SB or one of our CDs rolling.
arctic harbor
I always thought IP should be a stagger type mechanic
instead of the DR it gives, I dunno prolly doesnt work, but it makes sense that if I were actually Ignoring the Pain... my arm would still be broken, I am just ignoring it (for now)
acoustic sparrow
brew is just a much better designed tank spec
lean tangle
Is devastator still good ?
stark sage
no
lean tangle
Booming voice is the go to?
stark sage
yep
lean tangle
Rip devastator
stark sage
its all about that anger management synergy
sour wigeon
i really like that idea @arctic harbor
finite cairn
Prot warrior is the REEEEE spec, gotta scream as much as possible
onyx vessel
Whats a good legendary to go with belt going into bfa for lvling sephuz?
acoustic sparrow
prot war seems to require twice the effort to reach similar results as the other tanks
undone sun
more than monk and druid, sure
stark sage
stagger is the best mitigation right now
undone sun
lately? monk has been strong for the last half of legion
just happened to carry over through bfa
ember arrow
i am away for 24 hours, i log in, look at prot, see something about prot is bad
10/10
somber dragon
sorry for the non-beta not-knowing, but what are stagger amounts (with/without isb) looking like at 120 in pre-raid-ish ilvls?
free thinking is dangerous 😄
ember arrow
i saw people with 88% at some point, but im not sure how to get there
my level 39 monk is at 35%, so its at least more than that :P]
somber dragon
88% sounds like stoneskin brew or whatever it's called perhaps
somber dragon
"free" smoothing via the basic stagger, with the ability to just "erase" some of that damage if needed is super survivable.
ember arrow
what happens if stagger runs out exactly?
somber dragon
and that's.... tier 1?
main vault
Nothing
somber dragon
stagger doesn't run out
main vault
It just runs out
somber dragon
you either stagger a little or a lot based on isb
main vault
It doesnt
main vault
But once dmg goes into stagger it stays
somber dragon
nothing until you take damage again
main vault
Just means you will put less into stagger for hits without isb
somber dragon
the DoT component is set when the attack lands
main vault
Yeah you can't by yourself
somber dragon
stagger is wierd to get used to solo
acoustic sparrow
with the fun ability to delete huge amounts of damage...off the gcd....because reasons...
main vault
BrM is actually meh for leveling
somber dragon
i hate questing/leveling brm
ember arrow
is usually what i can take comfortably
somber dragon
i always go ww unless i have to 😄
acoustic sparrow
how IP is on the GCD yet purify isn't is beyond me
somber dragon
they'd probably break something if isb was off and pb was on is all 😄
uneven mason
Because Purify shares charges with ISB
acoustic sparrow
no...they'd have to make a choice, like druids/warriors/pallys
uneven mason
Would you want IP to share Shield block charges?
somber dragon
i mean, coding-wise they'd break something
acoustic sparrow
I would be perfectly fine with IP sharing charges with SB if SB could be kept up 100%of the time and IP erased damage like purify can
stiff gate
brm survivability is super strong for group content but leveling/questing as brm is hell because the self sustain is so ass and you have to vivify spam yourself between every pull
somber dragon
in this order, is what i want them to do to IP, in order of preference 1) make it a more engaging ability. 2) buff it. 3) take it off the gcd 😄
stiff gate
idk man if it was off gcd id be fine
it wouldnt be that weak if it didnt cost a global
esp on aoe where youre drowning in rage nonstop anyway
i do wish it could stack again tho
a lot of the time im overlapping it becuase revenge is procced and i cant spend rage any other way
acoustic sparrow
it would function exactly the same as it does now but they would get to share in the amazing experience of "choice".
main vault
They would have to remove the charges
Isb and purify are basically one spell with two buttons
somber dragon
they honestly probably aren't coded in a way that would allow that splitting without a ton of spaghetti code being thrown in....
stiff gate
people wanting more tanks to have a mitigation model like brm monk when its like the least fun mitigation model in the game...
main vault
Well it would remove the gameplay
acoustic sparrow
yea...kind of like the gameplay that off gcd IP added?
uneven mason
#Deadhorse
somber dragon
define fun?
stiff gate
fun: mop and wod brm
acoustic sparrow
right, which is why IP being useless AND on the gcd while purify just gets to delete massive amounts of damage is retarded.
stiff gate
control over your own survivability
ember arrow
if IP was off gcd, how weakt may be, would be a "bonus" to our AM
you have to look at opportunity cost
somber dragon
i mean... all tanks have control over their survivablity..... play well and survive better 😄
ember arrow
and IP isnt really presed that often
main vault
Which makes it less impactful that it's on the gcd
main vault
I didn't say you were wrong lol
ember arrow
oh ok
main vault
Im not an asshole 💯 of the time lol
uneven mason
IP isn't useless, performs its functions quite well Monero.
stark sage
spend a gcd spend some rage, get tankier
uneven mason
a buff to it would be kinda nice, but as far as a bit of damage smoothing, magic mitigation and rage dump, it does all 3.
stark sage
it feels bad when that rage or gcd would have been better spend elswhere
uneven mason
I just make myself feel better because every IP I use, is another 4 seconds off of LS/DS/SW
acoustic sparrow
hopefully 8.1 will bring some quality of life changes and maybe something resembling creative design from blizzard.
stark sage
prepare for disappointment
i think prot could use a bit of love tho
the talents being a problem
stiff gate
acoustic sparrow
well we can revenge on elevators now so maybe that's encouraging?
outer tundra
Debating on trying out tanking. I have a DH and a warrior. From warrior videos, all I see is negative feedback. Can someone tell me why go warrior over the other tanks?
stiff gate
do u like having a shield
undone sun
hmmm
outer tundra
Lol, what’s better about warriors than all other tanks? Why roll warrior compared to Dk, bear, monk..
stiff gate
lol
main vault
If you like the sword and board blocking style
wide juniper
Just play what you want
undone sun
when bosses have important blockable abilities, warrior excels greatly, the only problem is it's a big more punishing than other tanks and not everything is blockable
stiff gate
if u dont have a warrior in your raid at all we bring attack power and a power word fort and a half every 3 mins
also best transmog sets
outer tundra
How can you find out what’s blockable on a boss, icy veins has lists of boss abilities that can be blocked?
stiff gate
you kind of just have to do the boss and see if u block it
unless theres a sick spreadsheet somewhere i missed
dusk locust
usually someone puts together a spreadsheet with that information and pins it here
undone sun
no, iv wont have it
and wowhead only shows if an ability is not blockable
so the community has to take it upon themselves to find it with logs
i made the spreadsheet for the last half of legion and it's being worked on for uldir
dusk locust
hugely appreciated
chrome falcon
jesus it is actually staggering how fucking bad this class is now
i feel like a dps
except i don't do any dps
dusk locust
i'm usually up there with the other dps in m+
strong forum
then you're doing something wrong m8
uneven mason
♿ 🛡
acoustic sparrow
yea prot may be poorly designed but it's damage output can't be denied
uneven mason
Yeah, on beta heh
chrome falcon
i'm in the raid testing
uneven mason
get some logs we wants some data
dusk locust
^
strong forum
yeah its just that prot is bad, not the raid overtuned /s
uneven mason
But chances are if you're being wrecked, you're doing something off kilter. it doesn't feel bad atall.
Although
Outside of the raid that is
Chances are the HC raids are tuned high, since they want to see where they need to adjust stuff.
undone sun
90% of the time raid testing is overtuned
stiff gate
its felt fine on beta for me as far as living and doing damage
but
its not fun for sure
undone sun
and far from finished
uneven mason
Can't properly test if folks are just blowing theb osses up
stiff gate
compared to legion prot
undone sun
for example, we didn't even know Argus' scythes were blockable until it hit live
strong forum
unless you are doing something wrong but we dont know that
dusk locust
i'm at work and really shouldn't bring it up, but since we're on the subject of logs, if i look at damage taken events in warcraftlogs, i see "A" and I think "M" and "R" and such with numbers by them. what are those referring to?
stiff gate
feels bad tho @strong forum pretty much every tank feels really bad in bfa, i really dont understand how they make it less and less fun with every xpac
prot isnt fun but its the least aids of the specs ive tried
strong forum
that sounds like a you problem
main vault
There is no way they didn't do that though
dusk locust
i was looking over the first boss of maw earlier and wanted to dig into numbers some
main vault
You can't lose artifacts and etc and have more fun
main vault
No way we avoided it this xpac
strong forum
and next expac transition will be bad aswell
main vault
They did more harm than good
strong forum
because we will lose azerite
and that will affect us again
so buckle up bois
we lost legendaries and op artifact traits, ofc its gonna feel bad you cant just baseline it all and still have balanced tanks
undone sun
https://puu.sh/B89Uv/317758f816.png @dusk locust
stiff gate
dont think its a me problem, pretty much everyone ive tanked with in the past few xpacs has the same feelings, tanks went from the most fun role in the game in mop to being less tanky and doing less damage and less healing in wod, which was predictable because dps got upset over vengeance, but then in legion they got EVEN LESS healing and self-sustain, most tanks got their toolkits neutered over the course of wod and legion, and in bfa we're somehow even lower than legion in terms of self-sustain and rotational complexity
uneven mason
Next Xpac transistion might be less "bad" as long as they don't go absolutely insane with azerite
undone sun
and pretty sure A: is absorbed
uneven mason
Right
stiff gate
so far azerite feels pretty minimal in terms of playstyle impact so i agree
dusk locust
ahh that makes sense then, many thanks Thyme
stiff gate
the transition will be less harsh
strong forum
it will still be existant though
uneven mason
Being a prot warrior going into WoD turned into a shitshow really fast
main vault
God yes
uneven mason
cause Glad
stark sage
BDK in wod tho
uneven mason
fucked us
stark sage
super op
main vault
Monk
stark sage
yeah monks too
uneven mason
BrM and BDK
stiff gate
i abandoned prot warr in wod and only picked it up again in legion because brewmaster in legion is the dumbest fucking tank spec ive ever seen
stark sage
atleast in brf
uneven mason
BrM in BRF was just insane
stiff gate
brm in brf was insanely fun 😃
uneven mason
Warriors got better at the end
but yeah for most of WoD we were dogshit tier
not like we are now, which is a perception issue, but we were just hard to keep alive
undone sun
i don't find brew fun at all
stiff gate
brew hasnt been fun since wod
strong forum
still sounding like a you problem though saiyoran, since you cant accept the changes 🤔
wild atlas
We won’t truly know shit until Live. I’m leveling my BRM, BDK, and Prot Warr.
stiff gate
"i like new prot warrior so anyone who doesnt its their problem and not a design issue im too blind to see"
nice argument tho
uneven mason
More or less, if you'er the type of raider that server first matters, you're going to do what Vitch just said
and have most of the tanks on deck anyway
strong forum
well shit what can you do saiyoran
main vault
Before uldir is over I'll have all 6
strong forum
go complain to the devs and then have it changed?
main vault
But I'll have monk war and bear before heroic opens
chrome falcon
when have the devs ever changed prot in a way that makes sense lol
uneven mason
Right, progression folks don't have "class/spec loyalty" they have "whateverkillsthisfuckingbossfirst" loyalty
strong forum
then the class designers who the fuck cares
uneven mason
The changes make sense for BFA Matta
acoustic sparrow
I'm throwing bear, bdk, and war at the 120 wall and seeing what sticks
uneven mason
Like Prot plays fine (IP feels like a brick)
stark sage
the 7.1? patch prot changes were good
ember arrow
IP flows as wel as a river of bricks
uneven mason
But IP does work, as intended
main vault
We also just fired my cotank though
strong forum
rip
main vault
So my choices my change when we find a new one
strong forum
how come
main vault
He no showed twice
undone sun
intended to be a pile of shit haHAA
strong forum
okay.
stiff gate
prot changes make sense in the context of changes to other tanks but the whole tanking paradigm going into bfa is really anti-fun for tanks just for the sake of giving healers more to do
strong forum
for the sake of not having god like tanks that dont need external healing
uneven mason
Using IP with AM - tolerable, using IP without AM - Why the hell don't you have AM? 😄
strong forum
yea
stiff gate
when good tank gameplay rewards you with not dying that feels satisfying, when good tank gameplay rewards you with your healer having some extra mana at the end of a pull then it feels like you had no effect at all. ive never understood the hatred for tanks having self-sustain and not being healer dependent. healers have plenty to do with dps taking damage and large hits that the tank isn'
isnt able to handle alone
uneven mason
That was another part of the shift, afaik they're reducing unavoidable damage, and making avoidable damage more punishing, so part of this new build is going to be DPS having personal responsibility to lower the healers strain so they can focus on the tanks more
Its the circle of life!
acoustic sparrow
Yea that's why I loved playing BDK in legion. I was a master of my own destiny. My healers mentioned that it was nice because they could focus on the 18+ other players in the raid. I know for a fact that they won't be happier in BfA when now I'm a burden to the raid instead of an asset through no fault of my own.
stiff gate
like even looking at MoP Challenge Modes, where your tank did basically all the healing and damage, you couldn't do those runs without a disc priest because you needed the trickle heals to live while vengeance ramped up, you needed pain supp, you needed the healing for your dps, etc.
uneven mason
Gonna suck when a DPS screws up and needs to be healed so you have to hit an emergency CD to live because the healer had to blink
strong forum
its still bad design if a designated tank class does not require a healer
no matter the other arguments
yes its fun
acoustic sparrow
why?
strong forum
its bad design if a designated class to take damage doesnt need help, whats the point of tank mechanics then whats the point of healers then if just for dps, just bring only tanks ( yes you will lack dps )
whats the point in any tank damage if you can just heal it back up
stiff gate
but tanks have been self sustaining for 2 or 3 xpacs now and people dont bench dps or healers to bring a raid full of tanks so that seems like a weird argument
acoustic sparrow
You still have to execute. It's not like tanks were self sustaining by auto attacking
stiff gate
because healing back the tank damage should be the skill cap of the tank
like your toolkit should be built around needing to manage cds and mitigation to ensure you can live that damage on your own
strong forum
thats not how group content is designed in bfa
uneven mason
Because Saiyoran, to "give the healers something todo" they had to make insane amounts of unavoidable damage, these changes basically go, look, here is a more controlable source of unavoidable damage, its a real synergy between the healers and the tanks working together to lower the amount of healing needed. Take the raid wide death ticking crap off the table, Healers will have enough to do with tanks that are not self sustaining, and dealing with debuffs/mechanics that effect people predictably, or if someone makes a mistake they get punished.
main vault
Live it
strong forum
the oldschool fantasy is tank several dps and healers for the tanks
dps to take down the boss, tank to live the dmg and healers to heal the damage
thats literally the basis on which group content is build upon
acoustic sparrow
well...fuck old school fantasy.
strong forum
why not have a healer that can tank
he can heal himself back up
problem solved right
stiff gate
idk sounds like fun to me
wide juniper
Play GW2 if you don't like old school lol
stiff gate
you ever played rift
acoustic sparrow
fact is the tank changes are anti-player and anti-fun.
strong forum
^
wide juniper
I have fun tanking.
uneven mason
Its not anti-player for sure
wide juniper
I didn't see the changes as anti-player at all.
solid sun
I'm having fun
ember arrow
i ahve fun, but its not difficult 😛
uneven mason
Its anti "I'm a casual unholy DK who queued as blood for a fast queue but don't know what I'm doing"
solid sun
^^^^
uneven mason
I can finally collect my gold bag every queue
stiff gate
on a totally different note, anyone know if iron fortress traits are giving enough dps on m+ packs to be worth a shit
ember arrow
its nto about "im good player"
main vault
BDK has a couple strong CDs, and can heal enough to not die on the next hit
stiff gate
cool, i havent got a single one yet so i have no idea
strong forum
you deal dmg on EVERY SINGLE BLOCK
ember arrow
no no, i understand it completely nexii
strong forum
thats a lot of damage my boi
uneven mason
we'll live
main vault
The healing is still decent
dusk locust
personal preference, but i find it more interesting to take mob hits and do whatever i can with my kit to mitigate it, but i can only do it for so long. kind of makes the threat more... apparent and engaging.
main vault
I actually like how they feel
ember arrow
i have 2/3ths of a healer in m+, but thats legion content, so idk
stiff gate
i figured it would be a lot but i saw sense running the demo shout trait instead and talking about how it was op so wasnt sure if it was worth
ember arrow
hps
shut summit
block trait got nerfed today too
stiff gate
F
strong forum
i took iron fortress on the leveling azerite helmet for once, and a horde DH attacked me, Iron fortress did literally most damage
and thats only 1 iron fortress
stiff gate
which block trait
shut summit
iron fortress
acoustic sparrow
so one of prots best traits was nerfed...but we can now revenge on elevators. So call it even?
strong forum
ravager*
stiff gate
LOL
strong forum
cant find the trait nerf sense
uneven mason
Whats the #s now Sense?
acoustic sparrow
oh fuck even better. Hell take all prots traits away, ravager working on elevators solves everything
stiff gate
maybe tooltip wasnt updated yet, still shows 300 dmg per block for me
shut summit
https://puu.sh/B899t/c255ac4f87.png - 385 yesterday
https://puu.sh/B89a5/51401959e1.png - same 385 piece today
uneven mason
ok
strong forum
mmh.
shut summit
uneven mason
500 physical, its mitigated by armor then?
shut summit
does p good dmg, that was with 2 traits in a +12
stiff gate
post nerf?
shut summit
pre
stiff gate
f
uneven mason
Probably why it got nerfed heh 5% from a 2stack, so 8ish from 3, might've been excessive.
shut summit
https://puu.sh/B89gS/5f2ea09f38.png - 385 yesterday
https://puu.sh/B89gh/cbebabe72f.png - same 385 today
im sure wowhead will have actual list sometime today
stiff gate
this makes me wonder if lunar shrapnel got touched and boomkins are going back to the gutter or not
shut summit
ye
solid sun
Photoshop propaganda
strong forum
basic vs elvui eh
solid sun
Jk don't hurt me
shut summit
IP trait got buffed too but seems to scale kinda meh
strong forum
i mean the buff of bfi makes sense ( heh ) though
stiff gate
yeah it was pretty underwhelming before
strong forum
yea they are buffing absorb traits
by QUITE alot
from 300 to like 7k
so FeelsGoodMan
solid sun
So we got a trait nerf along with a couple trait buffs?
stiff gate
maybe they buff bury the hatchet and my impending victory meme build dream will come to life
strong forum
alot of buffs
uneven mason
Impending Victory feelsbadman
strong forum
especially healing / absorb and utility buffs
shut summit
it was buffed
stiff gate
losing 15% haste vs the fuckin placebo effect of feeling like i can heal myself from having a shitty heal button once every 30 sec
shut summit
the VR trait
stiff gate
quite the debate tbh
strong forum
if impending victory would work with AM though 🤔
solid sun
Are you raid testing, Sense
stiff gate
oof did bloodsport get destroyed or was the leech always that low
shut summit
nah not raid testing
strong forum
always been low
shut summit
https://puu.sh/B7HDy/5b64c68139.png - 385 piece yesterday
https://puu.sh/B88Cd/fb8aba1249.png - same 385 piece today
stiff gate
lmao yup
strong forum
but the increase is niceish
analog snow
could anyone name someone with a dope ass PVP protection spec ?
strong forum
stiff gate
increase is nice but i was def going for that meme leech build too
stiff gate
was gonna see if 3 of those and some blood siphons on top were worth anything
solid sun
Would anyone want the IP boost over the fortress trait or shield slam trait, though
uneven mason
IP best ability
shut summit
deafening crash had small dmg buff as well, tooltip still says extends by 1 sec but still does 2 in game
strong forum
IP + 3x Trait + NS 🤔
uneven mason
Lets not get carried away Nom
stiff gate
does the duration extension of Commanding Shout from Moment of Glory stack btw, doesnt seem like it since it says extends to 12 sec instead of extends by 2 sec
strong forum
THE MEMES
strong forum
yea but if it would
strong forum
you feel me
uneven mason
NS BEST TALENT
strong forum
TOLD YA
undone sun
🤦
strong forum
THE MEMES
strong forum
i mean a 40k+ IP sounds nice
uneven mason
per hit, than sure like, I could see it, if it was 3x stronger and doubled and absorbed like 90% at 20% health
strong forum
and thats without NS
uneven mason
Right, but IP would still only shave 50% of the hit
undone sun
or, you know... NS is pointless because you have to be at very low health to get full efffect
4Head
strong forum
buff NS to cap at 50% hp
uneven mason
"very low" -2% before it caps, ftw
strong forum
for 100% increased value
ontop of blocking the GIGA IP would be nice
literally 80k IP
stiff gate
3x Bury the Hatchet on 340 gear is ~32k absorb every impending victory for physical damage
btw
strong forum
thats 1 high ilvl IP
wide juniper
Where are you seeing these changes?
strong forum
you can find pieces with every trait in every slot
brazen void
Into the Fray often doesn't proc for me until I respec. Is this widely known? is there an ETA to fix that?
solid sun
Does Deafening Crash have a max time it can extend demoralizing shout
coral dew
At launch?
stiff gate
coral dew
Idk maybe I haven t mixed and matched hard enough yo find all potential stacking azerite traits
I stand correctes
Jesus that's OP
stiff gate
i got bored and started writing down all the ones that seemed like they might not be awful
brazen void
Yeah, @strong forum, I know
brazen void
when I switch to prot, sometimes, the buff never comes up. I stay at base haste
stiff gate
ez
main vault
There's a spreadsheet that does all that for you
strong forum
not by yourself
brazen void
It's zero. Throughout entire dungeons.
main vault
Last one I saw was pally discord
brazen void
Yeah, Nom. I did all that.
brazen void
It`s entirely random when I spec and phase into a dungeon that it simply is ignored.
coral dew
@stiff gate where did you pull that screenshot from btw
brazen void
And speccing out and back in usually turns it on.
stiff gate
my word document on my desktop
strong forum
beta?
coral dew
Looking for all the traits manually hurts
strong forum
on beta @brazen void ?
stiff gate
i mean its not done so
brazen void
right now. live.
stiff gate
but someone saying that theres a spreadsheet somewhere already
brazen void
well, I do. Tis why I asked if this is known or if I'm one of the rare freaks
coral dew
So could you potentially plot out 3 class traits and stack them x3?
Assuming the pieces exist to allow for that much overlap
coral dew
That's what I figured
strong forum
you a freaky boi synapse
stiff gate
but you can definitely get one trait 3x
strong forum
are you truly specced into ITF though?
coral dew
I wonder what iron fortress x3 would be like in pvp lmao
mighty prawn
hello i need an Weak auras for track my absorb ignor pain please
brazen void
mhmm
strong forum
check the #ui-addons-manager @mighty prawn
wide juniper
@mighty prawn Check the ui channel
strong forum
and then the pins
mighty prawn
thx gui 😃
stiff gate
i wish there was a gear combo for 3x iron fortress and 3x crystalline carapce
that would be hilarious
do all your damage from people just hitting you
stiff gate
^
coral dew
Wait what was that old prot trait
strong forum
d3 here we go
brazen void
I think this glitch happens mostly when I switch specs right after porting in
coral dew
That's shit was hilarious against rogues
charred vigil
Hard to keep up with this while at work, but were there Prot changes on beta?
stiff gate
just some trait changes, presumably for everyone, no notes on it yet
charred vigil
Ok are these changes major or just meh?