protection

[ionic fern]

Welcome to the life of a paladin with AM on its own was as strong/Stronger than a 5 min CD.

[hot locust]

Hardly a better CD

[cosmic cargo]

which is generally not your biggest concern

[broken kite]

tho less so with rfdt changes

[junior igloo]

@ionic fern
AM means Anger Management in this context, not active mitigation 😃

[ionic fern]

Fuck

[broken kite]

😄

[cosmic cargo]

and this

[ionic fern]

My bad. 😂

[cosmic cargo]

is why i hate abbreviations

[ionic fern]

<-obviously not a warrior

[cosmic cargo]

the other reason is because i constantly forget what some stand for

[waxen cradle]

The issue with nerfing AM is if they did they would have to seriously rework our CD's because without it our cd's would be pure shit, but that goes without saying.

[hot locust]

For real though its much more likely that AM gets nerfed or removed and we can be balanced healthily around that than made baseline.

[junior igloo]

I haven't thought about a good solution, but I do like putting UF, BV and Bolster on the same row as someone suggested

That way AM always gets 1 synergy and never more and can be balanced around that

[waxen cradle]

AM has became extremely necessary for us to function and that is probably a huge issue just by itself as we would need a substantial rework if it was nerfed or removed.

[cosmic cargo]

AM being nerfed and made baseline is also okay

and something else put in it's place

[hot locust]

They dont necessarily have to make our CDs better if they give more Active Mit uptime though. @waxen cradle

[waxen cradle]

I do not feel making AM baseline would fix things because that would reinforce them having to design around it

[hot locust]

Its so necessary right now because our block uptime is so low and IP is only a stop-gap for getting bursted.

Thats exactly why I think it would be most likely to just get nerfed though.

[junior igloo]

Sure, we are balanced around having huge up-time on cooldowns compared to other tanks because that's the strongest setup

Not much else they can do about it

Without rework

[waxen cradle]

I admittedly wish we could be what Blizzard keeps trying to call prot warriors, which is the kings of smoothing out damage, but then they ironically nerf our SB uptime, and make others tanks better at that then us. =.=

[hot locust]

Either way im pretty excited for prot in Uldir.

All the raid testing so far has reassured its what I want to play.

Am probably just gonna get weekly +10's done and spam my Paladin for M+ mostly though.

[waxen cradle]

I said a while back that I think we will be the sleeper tank during BFA. or in other words the tank that a lot of the community thinks is crap, but surprises people again.

I will likely do the same on my DK or DH not decided which one yet

[hot locust]

Im interested in how much they actually change K value compared to block increase between tiers.

First tier heroic shields being as strong as 7/7 bastion for block is crazy foreshadowing of scaling otherwise.

[junior igloo]

They will change it so that you have the same DR % from blocking when doing content in appropriate gear

Basically block is now 40 % (or whatever) reduction, unless you have gear 100 item levels higher in which case it doesn't matter anyway

[rapid trench]

theyll nerf block% like the nerfed druid armor every tier

xd

[junior igloo]

Well, not exactly, because block is not %

So they will change the numbers so that it seems like it 😛

[hot locust]

thats what I expect too Meiffert but it wouldnt surprise me if its slightly less of a change than that because blizzard wants us to end up feeling stronger in new tiers.

[waxen cradle]

I can say as everyone else whom beta tested that the difference between having a 355 to 360 or so shield and not having one is insane, and it surprises me immensely

[hot locust]

If they didnt change it at all though our base block would end up around 70+% DR

So they definitely have to or we scale too hard compared to other tanks.

[waxen cradle]

It will still cap out at 85% unless they reduced that which I do not think they did or are going to

[hot locust]

Im not talking about crit block though

and in that situation mastery becomes basically worthless.

[waxen cradle]

Yeah I knew where you were going with your statement

[vocal nimbus]

I kinda want to keep tanking with my warrior but i couldnt test anything in beta

[waxen cradle]

If they did not reduce base DR from block as tiers progressed by a 3rd tier we would be stopping 70%

Is how I take it you meant

[hot locust]

70% is a total guess on my part yeah

Assuming a mythic shield for the last tier is around 460 or so ilvl

[vocal nimbus]

How skilled a prot warr gotta be to not slow down guild's prog

[hot locust]

Depends on the guild

[vocal nimbus]

I did clear everything with my warr

[hot locust]

Only as skilled as the rest, personally speaking.

[vocal nimbus]

In legion

[hot locust]

I think i'm mid to lower half of skill level sometimes in my guild, but I held up fine.

Other times my ego kicks in and I know I'm the best. 😉

[waxen cradle]

That and a epic transmog and a tanks ego goes into outer space

[vocal nimbus]

I thought about using my monk but ZzZ

All it takes to survive is a good shield then

[hot locust]

Not a requirement, but it helps a lot.

Running things like Iron Fortress Azerite can make up for a lot with the shield.

[vocal nimbus]

Are azerite traits known already?

[astral crystal]

yeah for the most part

[hot locust]

As in whats best?

[waxen cradle]

But having a great shield and Iron Fortress is just amazing

[hot locust]

Not 100%

[vocal nimbus]

As in a calculator tool

[hot locust]

Ah, nah

[astral crystal]

no calc afaik

[vocal nimbus]

Im totally out of the meta right now x)

Tried prepatch for 1-2 days and ran out of sub

[astral crystal]

you can look at the traits by looking up azerite gear on wowhead

or install the azerite tooltip addon and look at the different pieces already in the dungeon journal

[hot locust]

Personally I think it'll be best (at least right now) to run 1x deafening crash and 2x iron fortress defensively but it all depends on what you get and at what ilvl.

[astral crystal]

and if they stack

😤

[hot locust]

Iron fortress does

Tested that one :^)

[astral crystal]

thinking more about defeaning crash

[hot locust]

Doesnt

[astral crystal]

i realize that

but it's bugged

so it might

or might not

2 weeks btw :^)

[hot locust]

Im leaning wont since none of the other duration traits stack

[lone cobalt]

anyone which found the bladeplate axe in the new world quests ?

i get the same chest - shoulders combo every single day

[astral crystal]

ive gotten the 1 h axe and the 2h axe, the 2h only appeared on the first day

the 1h has been a reward two days i think

[junior igloo]

I admit I haven't look at the numbers, but generally I don't like buffs that only work on hits that are already heavily mitigated.
That devalues Iron Fortress a lot in my eyes

[hot locust]

at 340 ilvl

its about 3% more block value

per trait

Thats pretty strong to just pass up

[lone cobalt]

@astral crystal then I guess I'm unlucky, I've seen only the 2handed one, thanks

[hot locust]

That would also mean our only other decent defensive trait (if you dont want something around block) becomes Callous Reprisal which requires consistent use of revenge.

Which blows on single target.

[astral crystal]

i think the stacking str one is pretty decent

since str gives you armor

[hot locust]

More strength for armor/IP value is good but I dont think its enough to actually be very impactful.

[astral crystal]

messing around with earthlink and the shield slam str trait felt pretty good on beta

but i dont have numbers so

[hot locust]

log everything 😡

[astral crystal]

😤

drop knowledge, meiffert

i see you starting and stopping

[hot locust]

👀

[robust urchin]

You want some knowledge?

Pee is stored in balls

[astral crystal]

confirmed by NASA

[junior igloo]

Iron Fortress
So, heroic shield has 4618 block, Iron Fortress gives 437.
42.3 % DR vs. 44.5 DR.
= 3.8 % DR, only works on blocked hits, surprisingly almost no value on crit block because of cap (otherwise would be way way stronger)

Reinforced Plating
Up to 275 strength = 124 armor (on top of 5500 base armor)
46.6 % DR vs. 47.2 % DR.
= 1.1 % DR, unreliable outside of SB

Thunder Crash
30 % Demo Shout up-time, 2(?) casts of TC during Demo Shout means 10s duration instead of 8, results in 37.5 % DS up-time
= ~1.5 % DR, allows to play around nicely, very strong for total mitigation up-time assuming DS is good enough by itself

Callous Reprisal
= 1.5 % DR, reasonably reliable, but has to be maintained, can be a rage loss on single target without enough free Revenge procs

Brace for Impact
217 block value per cast, with shield slam every 5s(?), we get ~390 block value
Requires Shield Slam about every 4.5s, which requires high haste (doable on live, but likely not in early BfA) to beat Iron Fortress, also only affects blocked attacks.

Bloodsport
I don't have enough data on BfA IP to evaluate this

[hot locust]

just delete the bloodsport line

:^)

Unless I'm missing something I still see Iron Fortress as the best situation here.

[junior igloo]

In terms of total damage reduction on tank-swap fights, for sure.

[hot locust]

Mostly just because other traits suck though.

Even in M+ where you are the only tank I dont see it being beat.

[junior igloo]

But I want to point out that if that's your metric, crit and mastery are the "best" secondary stats

[hot locust]

I mean... Deafening Crash doesnt stack and I already counted one. Brace for Impact is just a weaker Iron Fortress unless RNG is good. Callous Reprisal is definitely a rage loss... Reinforced Plating is the only other trait I would consider there at that point.

[junior igloo]

(I am also not contesting that result, I just didn't see the numbers before)

[hot locust]

I can understand the side of not liking to push what we are already safe around, its just that everything else is so "meh" in terms of power.

also worth noting that the duration on DC and % reduction on CR do not increase with item ilvl like the other value traits.

So while those will be more of a static value others will scale further on.

[junior igloo]

If we don't tank-swap, with 40 % Shield Block up-time, 12.5 % Bolster up-time and 25 % block chance outside of it, we block 65 % of all attacks.
That means, we take roughly 50 % of our damage un-blocked, reducing the value of the block traits in half.
Still should be the strongest ones and that is a rare scenario, on the vast majority of fights, we can block more than that

[hot locust]

Thats also assuming you are only blocking autos and no other source of damage.

[junior igloo]

Not sure what you mean, that assumes all damage is blockable

[hot locust]

Take a fight like Fetid Devourer for the off-tank and those block traits skyrocket in value compared to the rest.

You'll want to time it to block each hit of the higher incoming damage.

[junior igloo]

Or do you mean that blocking is not evenly distributed, but used when taking more damage?

[hot locust]

Than just whenever you are taking damage.

[junior igloo]

Yeah, of course, that's why I said that's the worst scenario for blocking timing-wise

[hot locust]

Ah, yeah yeah

[junior igloo]

(The counter argument is that on a magic/bleed heavy fight, blocking does nothing, but I don't think that those abilities are supposed to be dangerous to tanks in BfA too often)

[hot locust]

Tell that to the mushroom guy in Underrot

Fuck everything about that boss if you dont have a rogue who knows how to use cloak in your group

[junior igloo]

How does Callous Reprisal stack?

[hot locust]

I've only gotten one piece with it on beta so I'm not sure.

I've tried to fish for at least 2 of each trait but kinda gave up after last couple weeks.

I assume it either stacks to the cap quicker (i.e. 2 traits = 2stacks per revenge) or increases the value per stack.... or doesnt work at all.

[vagrant folio]

is prot good in m+ ? i mean like dh and dk

[undone sun]

like dh and dk? no, don't provide quite the same quality of utility required but viable nonetheless

[green forge]

anyone else really disappointed in how prot feels right now? after playing a pally and DK, the GCD changes feel even worse on my warrior.

[dusk locust]

i'd say at first it feels rough, but after a while i've gotten used to it.

feels fun now

[green forge]

there's times where its fine but after playing other classes it just feels frustrating to play at this point

I like some of the changes but the GCD thing is killing my fun

[dusk locust]

i haven't played any other tanks after prepatch yet so i guess i have nothing to compare it to

[green forge]

so much more noticeable on the warrior than it is on the other two

and the lack of self healing

[junior igloo]

I mean, it's hard to notice it on a DK when DS was always on GCD 😃

[dusk locust]

the goals are just different on war now i think. used to be the game was to be immortal by keeping ignore pain up forever

[junior igloo]

It's extra bad on warrior for 2 reasons I think:

1. Devastate - we never have empty GCDs to dump the rage because we can always press Devastate
2. UF + BV - during cooldowns we generate a lot more rage, but also have a lot of strong abilities to press (TC), leaving less GCDs to dump rage

[dusk locust]

yeah i agree with those. i find myself capped in rage all the time with little "need" to dump it

[green forge]

yeah and IP being on the GCD makes it awkward

[dusk locust]

maybe i need to do higher keys

lol

[heavy isle]

I find Hotp/Lotp being on the GCD way worse than IP, personally.

[astral crystal]

yeah, good pallies did a lot of offhealing

now they're just depressed

[dusk locust]

having never played a pally that sounds like it woulda been fun

[cosmic cargo]

honestly LoTP doesn't feel as bad on the global

but that's opinion simply

[green forge]

I boosted my pally maybe 2 weeks before prepatch just to get the mage tower done so its not like I was playing it a ton before the patch but I barely notice it

[kind mirage]

Do you guys use devastate ? Just windering ut is useful, or if I should concentrate on other skills.
I kinda lost the habit to press it due to using devastator in legion

[kind urchin]

Having our main rage spender on gcd especially being defensive in nature and not that great to boot just feels miserable.

[green forge]

for m+ I'm using booming voice but I'd probably take devastator for raids

[opaque pagoda]

There was really no reason to put any of the minor defensives on the GCD, but warriors definitely got hit the hardest out of the plate tanks

[cosmic cargo]

booming voice is always best

[opaque pagoda]

Can’t speak to the others

[cosmic cargo]

if anything devastator and vengeance gain some value aoe because more GCDs are taken up by free revenge

[kind urchin]

Because of how our resource works vs pallies not having to worry about it.

[opaque pagoda]

You’ll never get to use devastate if you don’t take devastator

It gets completely swallowed by the GCD demands of IP, which admittedly also sucks

[blazing dirge]

Is there a preferred azerite piece from magni for prot wars?

[cosmic cargo]

you mean at 110?

[blazing dirge]

yar. I assume the one with iron fortress

but I swear I read in some guide there was a preferred one to choose

[cosmic cargo]

pick whichever gives more dps really

[tawny panther]

Iron fortress is like 5% damage increase

Iirc

[blazing dirge]

ya I'm feeling iron fortress. just doing some last minute planning. I remember reading some guide that straight forward said "do this for x reason", but can't find it

[tawny panther]

Levelling won't matter much. You do you. But if you want some advice from the internet, iron fortress :P

[cosmic cargo]

though tbh

[blazing dirge]

I like advice with reasoning 😃 Your 5% makes sense to me

[cosmic cargo]

i wouldn't level as prot

[blazing dirge]

That's you

😃

[tawny panther]

I'll be fury out in the world. Prot in my levelling group when we hit the dungeons

[blazing dirge]

I'd do arms if anything. But I enjoy prot and can level quickly as it

[main vault]

Prot 100% in my group

[somber dragon]

wait, magni haz gear?

[blazing dirge]

first quest when you get your neck

[signal plover]

Ya

[green elbow]

It's a free azerite piece to level with

[somber dragon]

wooooooo shiny!

[uneven mason]

does it scale with level?

[blazing dirge]

no

[uneven mason]

wellthen

[blazing dirge]

but it's 275

[uneven mason]

hmm

[kind mirage]

@opaque pagoda yeah that's what I meant. I feel there is always better to do than to press devastate. I'm considering removing it fromm my skillbar. To many other skills to compete with.

[dusk locust]

if shield slam and thunder clap are on cooldown, and you don't want to overwrite your ignore pain, and you don't want to lose a bunch of rage to revenge and revenge isn't free

[green elbow]

I came here at one point after playing beta for a while to specifically ask if I was missing something with devastate

since I rarely used it

[dusk locust]

i think that's when i hit it generally

those moments where you're like "i have nothing else i can really do"

[green elbow]

Sorry- overwrite the ignore pain? I assume you mean with the 4p T21, because otherwise it just adds, right?

[uneven mason]

That is Devastates order in Priority

[dusk locust]

it adds to a point. it only gets as large as 1.3 times the original size

[uneven mason]

Ogun, so like, IP doesn't really "stack"

[astral crystal]

you will rarely use it, but you will use it eventually

[uneven mason]

^^

Gotta track IP now since it has a very low stack point.

[dusk locust]

so if your ignore pain is effectively "full" and you hit it again, you've lost a buncha rage

[green elbow]

I thought it went up to about 2x, that's my failed understanding. Will adjust.

Thanks

[dusk locust]

ya

[uneven mason]

Nope its 1.3 now, it used to stack 3x (+a bit if you had procced an artifact trait)

[green elbow]

Obviously currenlty with 4p T21, your IP can get so huge via procs that overwriting it is a Very Bad Idea, but I thought that was just a temporary thing

[dusk locust]

that's also a good point, as long as we're wearing 4p t21 of course

[green elbow]

Right, I just asumed that went away at 120 (realistically 115)

but it capping so low puts a different spin on it

[dusk locust]

yeah

i still have a habit of dumping rage into it when i really shouldn't that i'm trying to break

[green elbow]

Well, theres' some value in that of course if you're using AM

which seems the clear go-to

[uneven mason]

Minorly, better to use a non free revenge

[dusk locust]

^

[uneven mason]

if you're that despirate to dump rage

[dusk locust]

i generally use it there

[uneven mason]

Mind you

if Revenge is free, and you're going to cap rage

[green elbow]

Fair point

Right

[uneven mason]

you could dump into IP to move AM along

but doing the damage is probably sitll more beneficial.;

than worrying about wasting 10rage over the top

[dusk locust]

you know i hadn't thought of that, dumping rage with no real point other than moving AM

[uneven mason]

that situation isn't likely to happen

[dusk locust]

in those situations

[uneven mason]

Rather capping rage like that isn't very likely at 120

now it happens because of our gear.

But, yeah, blowing rage to move a CD up is a benefit to IP

pretty massive one

and probably ends up being the primary source of the damage reduction tied to IP use

heh

[green elbow]

YEah, and even if a decent chunk of the IP is 'wasted', ifover half isn't and you're not rage starving yourself you're probably reasonably justified, I'd think

[dusk locust]

sometimes the alternative is just straight up capping and losing all that rage to nothing

[green elbow]

But I'm a bit of a neophyte when it comes to warrior nitty gritty

[dusk locust]

but that might again be a gear thing

[uneven mason]

Well yeah, details are important now

with how punishing tanking can be

the small mistakes can blow up pretty fast

Like overspending and not having rage for SB

[green elbow]

This I have noticed. If you screw up someting in your rotation wow you're in trouble

bouncing back from that is..difficult

[uneven mason]

Warriors don't have a bounce back

We're basically 100% Proactive

[dusk locust]

that's why i like it 😛

[junior igloo]

If you had legendary shoulders, you could bounce back 3 times

[dusk locust]

got'em

[blazing dirge]

ba dum tss

[opaque pagoda]

Proactive gameplay really isn’t all that fun

[dusk locust]

some like it. i really like it

[green elbow]

not the appropriate channel but on that topic, is shoulders/leggings as strong for arms at it looks at first blush?

[dusk locust]

i find it more challenging

[junior igloo]

#arms

[opaque pagoda]

“Okay, this is the part where I push this button” makes it feel like synchronized swimming

[blazing dirge]

I enjoy the prep for it. I enjoy it a decent amount while playing, but I DO like going "oh shit oh shit" and hitting the right oh shit buttons

[opaque pagoda]

That’s not even a decision

Success in WoW should typically come from some intersection of responsive decisions and being familiar with mechanics

[dusk locust]

imo even worse is "i don't know what's happening but if i take damage imma push this"

at least proactive requires knowledge

[blazing dirge]

ya I think the correct place to intersect the two lines is difficult but makes for the best gameplay

[opaque pagoda]

It shouldn’t be either/or

[dusk locust]

things like "alright i'm gonna have to deal with 3 destructor tentacles how am i gonna do this" are neat to me

[opaque pagoda]

Demo shout and shield wall are fine proactive abilities

Last stand and IP were fine reactive abilities

[uneven mason]

🤔 IP is a reactive ability?

[dusk locust]

it's kinda both i guess

[uneven mason]

IP was never a reactive ability

[opaque pagoda]

Maybe not

[uneven mason]

No, its literally about as proactive as you can get

Since its Absorbs (Prevents) a portion of damage

The heal that the bracers provided during Legion

[opaque pagoda]

I liked the idea of baking in the talent where IP healed for more when used at low health levels

[uneven mason]

put it into the 'Both" category

and yeah NS would be nice if it was default

[opaque pagoda]

Then pooling rage became more of a useful approach

But it was certainly never the best option in Legion@

[uneven mason]

IP was something done without thought for most of the last 2 tiers

between T20 and T21 we had so much rage

you could bind IP to every button since its absorb was linearly scaled vs rage spent

and never worry.

[signal plover]

Ayyy dat hyperbole tho

[uneven mason]

Which is why it feels so uh, Abrasive

To have it on GCD "cause thought"

[astral crystal]

gcd making decisions more tactical is a tremendous meme

[dusk locust]

tbh i think it's true in prot war's case

[uneven mason]

Somewhat

[astral crystal]

some real fedora tipping nonsense

[dusk locust]

previously i just kept IP full all the time and also dps'd

now i have to choose

[uneven mason]

But yeah, hence my use of " "

But its not really a choice

it just another aspect of rage management

it adds a small dimension to our gameplay, but isn't really a huge decision to be made.

[dusk locust]

well if i rush into a mob group, hit avatar, hit demo shout, hit IP... now the mobs are killing my allies

before i could do all of that AND thunder clap

[uneven mason]

0_o thats just bad gameplay tho

[dusk locust]

right but previously there was no choice to make

[uneven mason]

thats like saying "I could choose to close this door on my foot, or I could choose to remove my foot from the door before I Close it"

[dusk locust]

no opportunity to be bad there

[opaque pagoda]

At this point, for me, it’s not about whether it’s possible to play the class well

I don’t think it’s great gameplay to have to wait 4.5 seconds before doing damage, but I acknowledge that you can avoid that scenario

But they have to do something about how none of the skills really feel impactful

IP and devastate both feel almost useless, so it’s like you might as well just rage cap

[charred vigil]

Can’t you charge, avatar while charging, TC, then demo shout ?

[opaque pagoda]

Which feels terrible

Maybe IP and devastate should be merged or something

[dusk locust]

you can't avatar while charging as both are on the gcd i believe

[opaque pagoda]

Really anything to dump rage

[uneven mason]

Yes, you'll Avatar mid charge, hit TC (SB at this point), Demo, TC etc....

Charge (intercept) has a 0.5s GCD

you'll hit Avatar mid range

[dusk locust]

ok that makes sense

[uneven mason]

Or hit avatar while closing to charge range

it lasts 20s, and its primary function is the infusion of rage and giving you a steady supply of AE burst damage

[charred vigil]

I’m concerned as a main tank for my guild how a raid pull will look. I can do all those things but I’m getting hit by a raid boss melee before I can have shield block up right?

[opaque pagoda]

SB isn’t on the GCD

But you may have rage issues

If you have Booming Voice then you’ll get 40 rage from that

[dusk locust]

the guide has you intercept > avatar > demo right? i forget how much rage intercept gives but if it isn't enough after avatar and you absolutely must block the first melee there's avenues to get rage to do that

[opaque pagoda]

So you’d avatar, charge, shield slam, DS, and then SB

[dusk locust]

since you don't have 100% block uptime anyway i feel like getting hit by 1 melee isn't a huge deal

[weary notch]

Charge + Avatar is enough to get off a SB

[charred vigil]

It just feels weird that all the other tanks have a way to enter combat with mitigation up already. Except maybe DK unless they have rune tap or whatever

I know that 1 melee isn’t necessarily a huge deal but I could see it in a mythic raid setting making a difference

[main vault]

In a mythic raid just don't pull if you are that worried

[chilly brook]

I have a ton of other issues than just that

[weary notch]

So it seems like it should really be Charge -> Avatar /SB -> Demo -> SS

[chilly brook]

And tbh it really isn’t an issue and if you’re THAT worried you can always last stand

Since bolster exists

[charred vigil]

True

[dusk locust]

yeah there are lots of other things to put up that's true

[chilly brook]

And anger management makes that less of an issue

[dusk locust]

and hell you could even get an external on pull. but i strongly doubt any of this is necessary 😛

[chilly brook]

Please give IP off the gcd

[weary notch]

won't happen

[chilly brook]

Oh and avatar

And booming voice

[charred vigil]

I just hope there are at least a few small tweaks. I know they’ll do something just hope it isn’t worse

[chilly brook]

😑

[main vault]

Won't happen and not needed

[chilly brook]

“Not needed” depends on what you mean by needed

[weary notch]

they've taken so many abilities away from classes - we no longer can use "the right ability for the job", so they have to force choice by locking abilities on the GCD

[chilly brook]

If you ever want it to not be clunky then it’s needed

[main vault]

Or it means it isn't needed for the class to work

[weary notch]

it's the result of pruning

[solid sun]

Once you get used to the changes, the GCD stuff is a non-issue

[main vault]

And it's time to just get used to it

[chilly brook]

I am used to it

Still clunky

Being able to play with it =/=it’s fine

[uneven mason]

I last stand on pull, 15s of 100% block, gives healers and DPS time to get into posistion, allows me to go directly into building threat.

with Bolster and AM its going to be up before its needed

[weary notch]

does the LS overheal generate threat?

[uneven mason]

I don't think the heal generats threat at all

[weary notch]

because if not, that's a waste

[main vault]

Tanks don't generate self healing threat

[uneven mason]

It might, wouldn't be noticeable

^^

Yeah, because Paladin

[main vault]

And haven't in uh, 2 years?

[uneven mason]

longer than that I think

[main vault]

ToV, whenever that was

[uneven mason]

Was a change in Mists wasn't it?

[main vault]

Naw some still did

[green elbow]

Selfheals not generating threat are specifically flagged not to, last stand doesn't seem to be flagged that way on wowhead.

That said, it's also not flagged as a heal

[uneven mason]

Oh right Mists was when Righteous Fury stopped amplifying heal aggro

[green elbow]

So I couldn't tell yo uone way or another.

[main vault]

FR did

[weary notch]

again, you don't need to LS on pull - charge + avatar while charging is enough rage to get a SB off before you get meleed

[main vault]

But they changed it in ToV

[uneven mason]

Yeah you don't need to, its what I've found to be the easiest setup

is all

[green elbow]

Raid bosses, especialy at the mythic level, are specifically set up not to oneshot tanks of appropriate gear level with their initial 'whatever'

[chilly brook]

It’s honestly hilarious that they do these changes to a majority of tanks but then monk literally doesn’t get touched at all by the GCD change

[green elbow]

It's why a lot of abilities take 2-3 seconds ot activate

[uneven mason]

Guard is on GCD now yes?

[green elbow]

yes

[main vault]

Anything not Brew is

[green elbow]

But guard is a new ability

[main vault]

New

Lulz

[chilly brook]

And really not even used

[green elbow]

This itteration is new

[main vault]

Yes it is

[uneven mason]

0_o

[main vault]

It's used all the time

[chilly brook]

Outside of very specific occasions

[uneven mason]

After that last buff I'd hope they use the crap out of it

[main vault]

No

Its used often

Not specific

[green elbow]

Not even going to touch on that, but regardless- the big 'tank buster' abilities are usually things that don't start up for at least 3 seconds.

Aggramar is an odd exception

I figured that was intentional so every tank can start off and not get pasted before they get their abilities cycling.

(technically mythic aggramar doesn't explictly paste tanks either, but if one tank is a lot faster than the other it can easily happen)

[solid sun]

LS doesn't count as AM does it

[main vault]

No

[uneven mason]

No

[main vault]

Only SB

[solid sun]

Just making sure

[tawny panther]

Even with bolster it doesn't?

[uneven mason]

Correct

[rapid trench]

no

[uneven mason]

The buff "Shield Block" is what is flagged as AM

[tawny panther]

That feels janky

[solid sun]

I thought SW could be used as AM though

[main vault]

Hows

[undone sun]

it's the same as NF in Legion

[uneven mason]

Bolster literally just gives you +100% more block chance

[main vault]

It's been like that for years

[tawny panther]

Bolster hasn't existed for years?

[green elbow]

Even mark of Ursol was not flagged as AM

[main vault]

The act of blocking isn't what makes it AM

[chilly brook]

Lul

[uneven mason]

What Nexii said

[main vault]

And SB being the only AM has been for years

[tawny panther]

Yeah it makes sense it's just...janky

[chilly brook]

So 2 bosses in Mythic antorus where guard is a common pick

“Not specific”

[main vault]

Judging on Legion fights

Luls

[green elbow]

Vari and kingor, I'd assume

[chilly brook]

Vari and imonar

[green elbow]

That too. But why judge ABT fights?

[main vault]

Not like it was made for BFA or anythinf

[chilly brook]

I mean Legion is still current content

[green elbow]

No it's not.

[main vault]

Should just judge everythijg on Legion

[charred vigil]

Guard is just a great skill anyways

[main vault]

Makes sense

[chilly brook]

I can’t do BFA content on live can I?

No

[green elbow]

It's previous content that we're just waiting out the clock on.

That doesn't make it 'current'

[chilly brook]

It does by definition

[tawny sphinx]

what cds do you use for second boss in HoV (beem)? Spell reflect aint working no more 😢

[chilly brook]

You can’t currently do BFA on live

[main vault]

Can't get achieve =/= current

[green elbow]

ABT hasn't been current content for months, by most definitions, since most overgeared it a while ago

[chilly brook]

Anyways....

[main vault]

Arguing just to argue is fun though

[tawny panther]

Daft semantic argument

[chilly brook]

Not going to use guard in content currently available

Outside of specific situations

[main vault]

BFA is available I use it all the time

Don't talk about things you don't know

Makes you look stupid

[chilly brook]

I said on live

Not on beta

[main vault]

Not going to use guard in content currently available

[chilly brook]

And everything I said before that was prefaced with on live

But clearly nuance escapes you

[main vault]

As does logic you

[green elbow]

Why wouldn't you used it on vair?

Vari's painful as hell for monks, guard is brilliant for it

[chilly brook]

Didn’t I mention that it was a fight where it was picked?

[main vault]

Guess he knows more than people who actually play the class

[chilly brook]

Good lord

[main vault]

Makes sense

[chilly brook]

I do play the class....

[solid sun]

He said you use it on Various and Imonar

[main vault]

Obviously

[solid sun]

Vari*

[chilly brook]

I’ve literally mained it since WoD

[tawny panther]

Anyway, since this is the prot warrior discord..

[main vault]

And you still don't know much about it? That sounds painful

[chilly brook]

Lol

Sorry that I’m not talking about content not on live at the moment

[solid sun]

It doesn't make sense to use Legion content in discussions about BfA content

[chilly brook]

Didn’t realize this was ONLY BFA talk in this channel

[main vault]

Should just judge all 120 classes and talents on old 110 content

[tawny panther]

So err, that IP. Great ain't it

[main vault]

Since that's what blizzard balanced

[chilly brook]

There wasn’t really a distinction as to whether this was BFA or not when the comment was made @solid sun

[main vault]

#logic

[grim prism]

Some salty sallies in here this morning

[chilly brook]

It was literally just talking about abilities being on the gcd

[solid sun]

Which is a change for BfA

[tawny panther]

About brewmaster too

Well, it was

Now it's about being a timelord

[chilly brook]

Clearly it was but the fact remains that guard is rarely used on live

And even in BFA it hardly affects monks since there’s an open global anyways

[solid sun]

I've yet to be in a situation where I needed to use a prot ability and couldn't because of the GCD.

So I don't see the difference

[tawny panther]

For those who've been beta ing. What's the usage of IP looking like, is it numerically worth or just go ham on revenge? Use cooldowns and shield block for staying alive?

[grim prism]

I can guarantee you that you will want to use IP next expac lol

Unless you plan to do LFR forever

[main vault]

You do some

It's a rage dump

[tawny panther]

Well, I ask because of watching some high key sloot before. Seemed very rare use

[junior igloo]

The problem is that Revenge isn't numerically worth it 😃

[main vault]

Well I've only done a 10 on prot

It I didn't use it too much

[tawny panther]

Meiff I was also under impression revenge was doing pretty nice DMG lol

[main vault]

It's not early Legion Maul level

[junior igloo]

In AoE it's alright

[main vault]

But it's kinda meh

[chilly brook]

Again it’s not a question of being blocked by the gcd @solid sun it was just an unneeded and frankly an unwarranted change that doesn’t follow any real logic

[junior igloo]

On single target, the difference between Revenge and Devastate is minor

[tawny panther]

Oh yeah, I'm thinking in multi target

[main vault]

Other than the logic that non-AM is on gcd

[grim prism]

What are we even complaining about? Safeguard?

[chilly brook]

Why though?

[tawny panther]

Cos *meaningful gameplay decisions *

[chilly brook]

Why is something like light of the protector (reactive by nature) blocked from being able to you know split second react?

[main vault]

If you die in that gcd lotp wasnt going to save you anyways

So it wouldn't matter

[grim prism]

Keeps you from spamming DPS mindlessly as a tank

[ember arrow]

U know exactly whats coming in raids. If u die in 1 gcd it matters not

[grim prism]

Makes you decide between damage and mitigation in that split second

And yeah, raids are reheased

[tawny panther]

Most tanks mitigation is also damage tbf

[chilly brook]

^

[green elbow]

Especially true for paladins.

[tawny panther]

Not us lucky prot wars tho

[grim prism]

Irrelevant in this case

Right

[chilly brook]

And some actually generate more defense by proxy of doing damage

[grim prism]

I really think it's not the end of the world

[main vault]

Pally, DK, what else tanks mitigation is damage

[grim prism]

We are doing live content at a tune that was meant for different conte t

[tawny panther]

If I did I wouldn't be maining prot warrior :)

[grim prism]

Things will be different

[green elbow]

Spirit bomb/soul cleave for DHs

also their shieldwall

[main vault]

Not mitigation

Pally and DK are the only tanks whose mitigation deals dmg

Hardly most

[green elbow]

Not mitigation, but reactive recovery

[chilly brook]

^

[green elbow]

and the shieldwall is in fact mitigation, and does damage

[undone sun]

🤔

[chilly brook]

Not to mention the reduction of mitigation CD through damage

[main vault]

The shieldwall gives pain

Does 0 damage

[solid sun]

Idk about other classes, and if I'm being honest I don't really care, either. But I can say that the GCD change has required me to be a more thoughtful player and has increased my skill as a result

[chilly brook]

It literally doesn’t force any more thought other than what don’t I want to cast

[solid sun]

Planning out what I want to cast is literally being more thoughtful than just spamming skills

[chilly brook]

Something that again certain classes don’t even have to think about

[grim prism]

So continue to not think and be bad?

[solid sun]

If you don't see that I don't know what to tell you

[tawny panther]

Biggest thing I want is a solid direction on IP from design pov

[somber dragon]

I just can't decide what I want to main honestly, I like a lot of the classes 😂

[green elbow]

Firey brand still does damage

[tawny panther]

Seemed a bit all over the shop

[main vault]

Fiery Brand isn't the shieldwall

[chilly brook]

You literally carry on as normal and “oh hey this is coming up guess I just skip one cast of devastate”

Wooooo big thoughts bois

[grim prism]

@tawny panther prot ofc is well known for solid design direction and good dev communication this expac

[chilly brook]

Really requires 300IQ

[green elbow]

40% DR sure sounds like their shieldwall equivilant to me.

[sick sentinel]

301 IQ correction

[main vault]

Well you'd be wrong

Meta is their shieldwall

[rotund citrus]

I’m pretty set on maining warrior, but prot feels really weird due to how it doesn’t have 100% uptime on mitigation. Like I’m used to BrM monks who have 100% uptime on mitigation, and then Blood DK’s who just pool RP and then heal everything back.

[green elbow]

Meta's their last stand

[undone sun]

jesus christ, it's semantics move on

[main vault]

That's why it has a 3 min CD and their "shield wall" is 1min

God War is the worst Discord now

[tawny panther]

@grim prism aye true, my bad for expecting to know what's happening isn't it!

[chilly brook]

@rotund citrus welcome to BFA “tank homogenization” while also still making the classes with 100% uptime the obvious best choice for progression

[somber dragon]

it really is not that homogenized...

[chilly brook]

Clearly

[uneven mason]

0_o what mitigation does BrM have 100% uptime on?

[somber dragon]

isb

[chilly brook]

Stagger and isb?

[undone sun]

ISB is their AM, and it can be maintained 100% of the time

[junior igloo]

@somber dragon
That's the joke.
All tanks are equal, but some are equaler

[chilly brook]

The same mitigation they had 100% in legion lol

[somber dragon]

yeah, but their damage reduction from armor sucks (brm)

[chilly brook]

Who cares

[undone sun]

stagger is still busted

[chilly brook]

They still deal with damage the best out of all tanks

[somber dragon]

I don't care, I just want to have a good time being a meat shield

[chilly brook]

Who needs damage reduction from armor when you can ignore the full hit anyways and literally delete damage

[uneven mason]

Ok so lets clear this one up, Stagger doesn't remove the damage (its not mitigated) its delayed, the damage still exists, it just doesn't happen immediately, while it is true that they can have 100% uptime on AM, that is irrelevant because no fight has AM checks 100% of the time....heh

[cosmic cargo]

brm is the definition of meat shield really

[chilly brook]

Ummmm

[cosmic cargo]

with the highest EHP vs physical by a mile

[chilly brook]

Purifying brew does?

[uneven mason]

Yes, BrM is the best looking tank

[chilly brook]

Literally deletes damage

[uneven mason]

right, Purifying brew, removes the damage

[main vault]

1ish time a minute

Omaigod

[uneven mason]

shares chares with ISB

[junior igloo]

Brewmasters reduce damage mostly by mastery/dodging

[cosmic cargo]

it's more often than 1 every min afaik

[undone sun]

not implying that there are 100% AM checks, it's the implication that it requires nearly zero effort

to maintain it

[ashen trellis]

I think people are seriously under estimating the value of block and that our AM is 100% block, Since they buffed block value. We can legit take 3-5 argus scythes with just shield block.

[chilly brook]

Which you have a ton of...

[cosmic cargo]

also monk receives more healing through their crit

[main vault]

There is a reason they take more damage than any other tank

So they don't mitigate it, they smooth it

[chilly brook]

Trust me it’s not hard to generate more brews

[cosmic cargo]

the thing is they don't actually take that much more

[main vault]

Easier to deal with =/= mitigated

[chilly brook]

Do damage

Get more brews

Ez

Or better yet use black ox brew!

[cosmic cargo]

and if most damage is melees they might actually not even take more thanks to mastery

[solid sun]

I think the point that was being made is that stagger isn't mitigation

[main vault]

I'd trust you but you seem to be lacking on Brew knowledge

[chilly brook]

Lul

Sorry don’t speak petty

I wasn’t wrong about it not being used often on live

[junior igloo]

Stagger isn't mitigation, but it's EHP which is good enough for this (not dying to 1-2 hits).
And it's easier to play because you just have 100 % up-time with little effort

[tawny panther]

Basically monks have a smooth intake and very easy access to AM charges and also reactive DMG removal. Their kit is sexy and smooth damage = amazing

[main vault]

Yeah for sure easier, they just still take most of the damage

[tawny panther]

But yes not mitigation etc

[junior igloo]

Purifying is part of their damage reduction, yeah, but I think they likely reduce more through dodging

[main vault]

Right now id agree

[cosmic cargo]

again most damage is relative

if it's almost all melees

it might not be the case

[tawny panther]

Yeah I was more summarising cos all the discussion of mitigation n smoothing or being good lol

[main vault]

You only get like 1-2 purifying brew a min

[cosmic cargo]

if it's mostly non-dodgable attacks, sure

[chilly brook]

1-2 a minute? Lul

You can do more

[fresh idol]

thought it was more than that

[junior igloo]

They take more damage but whether or not they require more healing is not so easy to answer.
Because even if the total number is higher, it's more efficient to heal brewmasters, you overheal less since they always take stagger ticks

[main vault]

On beta it isnt

[chilly brook]

I can guarentee you can do more

Whether you need to is a different story

[main vault]

I'll admit I haven't played in a few weeks on brm

[astral hare]

Shall we talk about warriors for a change? I just started to play wow again after 3 months break and I feel like we are getting 30% of the rage we were getting before, because of the nerfs. Even with haste talent(40-48% atm) rage is not enough. I dont see that this would change with improved gear. I’m scared 😰

[main vault]

Been moving and etc

[rotund citrus]

Apparently I kicked a hornets nest. Oops. Didn’t realize this would start a massive conversation about AM. 😂

[cosmic cargo]

BrM discord says 4 or more

i had a feeling 1-2 was way too little

[opaque pagoda]

Don’t worry, there’s nothing to bother spending rage on besides Shield Block, so you’ll be fine!

[tawny panther]

SO YEAH ANYWAY PROT WARRIOR DISCUSSIONS.

[main vault]

That's good then, it's been a little bit since I've played brm on beta

[junior igloo]

@astral hare
We generate more rage, but Shield Block has longer cooldown, so you don't need as much to use it 😄

[uneven mason]

Warriors are in a good spot, folks like to doomsay because another tank is going to be "optimal"

[main vault]

Only been playing bear and war

[tawny panther]

You might be overusing IP or non free revenge if rage starved

[main vault]

I scared my guild saying I may raid War lol

[cosmic cargo]

brew gen is faster in BFA than legion iirc

though ironskin duration is shorter

[solid sun]

My guild expects me to raid warrior.

[fresh idol]

but sco said we're the lowest of the pack, so we must be terrible right

🤔

[solid sun]

That's so tired tbh

Come up with something new

[ember arrow]

Touche

[uneven mason]

Its tired, however, still somewhat relevant since folks are still seeing it

and still spewing it

[main vault]

All the newer videos regurgitate it as well

[leaden carbon]

videos.

[astral hare]

Yes, shield block takes most of the rage and also not-free revenges

[solid sun]

Basically every main tank player in the community spotlight says warriors are the worst tank. It isn't just Sco

[somber dragon]

it's called bandwagoning

[solid sun]

No it isn't

[astral hare]

Have you considered how many globals it takes to generate 70 rage for shield block and ignore pain?

[somber dragon]

sco is. method, method is best sco is right

[main vault]

Not for IP since it isn't used like that anymore

[somber dragon]

charge, demo shout, shield slam, win

[junior igloo]

I will let you know that Sco didn't say warriors were the worst.
He said we are the second worst

[somber dragon]

oh and tc

[uneven mason]

^^

[somber dragon]

once I get going, I don't end up rage starved unless I am being dumb with revenge

[uneven mason]

Basically

[main vault]

With procs and etc you almost have to try to run out

[uneven mason]

ONce you're in continual combat rage generation isn't bad at all

gotta get out of the habit of hitting Revenge while not free though

thats bad juju unless you really are not taking noticeable damage

[astral hare]

That might be true. I’m using revenge way too much

[ember arrow]

Well theres your answee why u got no rage

[uneven mason]

So like, I'm playing warrior, I don't FEEL that we are in a bad spot, on any of the 3 110s I've been playing (210, 233, 250), I don't feel horrible on Beta either.

[solid sun]

I think Sloot said it best. When ranking tanks for m+ specifically, he talked about how warriors are probably the worst but that doesn't mean they can't do the content.

[uneven mason]

We're probably rougher to heal, as in, we take spikes more than BrM, and don't have the smoothing tools (self healing) of Paladin, BDK or VDH

[rotund citrus]

Also, I think people quoting Sco’s video are being disingenuous if they say “OMG WARRIOR WORST” because he basically said they all should be able to perform within their roles for both raiding and dungeons... it’s just that some have an edge over others.

[uneven mason]

So same as Legion

[fresh idol]

end of the day

play whats fun to you

[rotund citrus]

Admittedly, in Legion— I don’t know if I ever raided with a good warrior tank. Not saying they don’t exist, just that I haven’t seen a ton of them.

[green elbow]

The most intresting argument I've heard for why warriors are not top tier for M+ was, basically, because warriors have very limited NPC positioning and snare control

[fresh idol]

thats all that matters for most of us

[green elbow]

Not none- but limited, significantly

[uneven mason]

What it comes down to is the folks that the edge of the knife differences matter to will play whatever is optimal for their team and probably have 3 or 4 tanks on deck anyway

[fresh idol]

if you play whats fun and do well you're gonna be fine

or else you're gonna keep rerolling the "top tier" tank

[green elbow]

With minimal CC options (aoe stun, longish cooldown disorient/fear)

[ember arrow]

Any self respecting tank playing should play multiple tanks

[fresh idol]

ya true, see all ends of the spectrum

[rotund citrus]

The issue is that the top 100 guild mentality trickles down to the guilds that aren’t even progressing Mythic. They get it in their heads that they can’t accept a DH or Warrior tank to their raid team, because it isn’t “good enough” when Dh/Warrior can do Mythic as well, and most certainly could do Heroics.

[junior igloo]

So?

You think that you will not get better experience from a good car if you aren't a top 100 driver?

[rotund citrus]

I don’t think that.

[ember arrow]

Stormforged on warr discord bashing war

[junior igloo]

One could argue that playing an easy tank such as monk or druid is even more beneficial to a mediocre player than it is to a top player

[rotund citrus]

I think that’s true.

[solid sun]

I disagree with your analogy because even if we say warriors are the worst tanks, that doesn't necessarily mean they're bad.

They can still be good and not be as good as some other tank class

[rotund citrus]

I won’t claim to be a super experienced tank. I’ve never loved main tanking, but I do like to know how. It is really terrifying to me, as a less experienced tank— to think of not having 100% mitigation. I want to learn Prot, but I get worried that: “What if I push the mitigation button at the wrong time, and don’t have it for when I need it?” Whereas, on easier tanks— I can just maintain ISB or pool Runic Power and be fine.

Worst =/= bad. Worst = worst.

[green elbow]

You will fuck up.

[ember arrow]

Then get better

[green elbow]

It's just a universal truth, when learning, you will fuck up

[ember arrow]

Thats gow u learn

U learn fights

[junior igloo]

Warriors have a lot of cooldowns with Anger Management, so you can have 100 % mitigation up-time, it's just not with only one ability, @rotund citrus

[ember arrow]

Tanking is easiest role

In raids definitely

[rotund citrus]

The easiest role, tends to be what you have the most experience doing— In my opinion.

[green elbow]

I'm not sure about definately or always, but I'll grant outside of a (very) few bosses you were right for legion.

I don't feel I have the experience to speak to BFA yet.

[ember arrow]

So far tanking is objectively easier

Do raids wipe 300 times to tank mistakes?

[hollow pine]

Easier but also less forgiving of mistakes

[junior igloo]

Of course

If the tanks make mistakes, it leads to wipes much more often

[green elbow]

Okay. It can be harder (depending on mechanics) from a purely theoretical standpoint, but it may or may not be harder this next expansion. If I had to lay money, I'd say tanking will be generally the easiest role going forward as well

[solid sun]

There tends to be more pressure on tanks, even if they aren't asked to do the most.

[ember arrow]

Its harder to make mistakes on tanks

[hollow pine]

Some people don't like the added responsibility which increases difficulty for them

[junior igloo]

You mistime your short buff by half a second - you die, the raid wipes

You mistime your ability as a dps by half a second? Your damage went down by 0.01 %, nobody ever notices

[ember arrow]

Raids= learn fight in 3 pulls then wipe 600 times due to dos/healers. 95% of bosses

Being a good and great dps in a much bigger diff than a good and great tank

[hollow pine]

But do it perfect every single time

[ember arrow]

Timers

[grim prism]

A guild that is progging heroic and not accepting new players for their roster due to their spec = objectively a bad guild

[ember arrow]

Was

[solid sun]

On the flip side of your argument, it's a lot easier to hide a bad player in the dps group than it is one of the tank spots

[grim prism]

The "trickle down" argument is misleading

The fact of the matter is some guild just have shit managenent

[ember arrow]

Whats hard about pressing AM on the same moment every pull

Aggra and argus were few examples where tanks had to pay attention

[junior igloo]

So which difficult fights were significantly harder on a dps?

[grim prism]

Tanking is objectively the easiest role in raiding right now. All you have to do is stand in the right place and press the right buttons. Mistakes generally cost you a healer CD instead of a brez

[hollow pine]

If you optimize dps as a tank you have more to do then a dps and more responsibility, that tank dps matters less irrelevant

Is

[green elbow]

Not sure where to insert that 'is'

[junior igloo]

@grim prism
A melee stands in place and presses button. Mistakes don't cost you anything, you kill the boss half a second slower

[hollow pine]

After less

[ember arrow]

If u can optimize for dps u either hate ur healers on progress or the content is easy so it doesnt matter anyway

Hence u can focus on dps

[grim prism]

Smaller healthpool and healers not babysitting = mistakes are far more punishing

[hollow pine]

If it's progress tank dps matters especially on gearchecks

[green elbow]

I'll be honest, I sort of am hoping, pie in the sky, that we get a threat boss.

[grim prism]

Even if we forego the argument of which role is easiest, tanking is still really not that difficult

[ember arrow]

Not if u die cobstantly

If u can FOCUS on dps the content is outgeared or boss has no tank dmg

[hollow pine]

The game is quite easy but since we're comparing dick sizes we might as well discuss it

[livid anvil]

@grim prism yeah punishing just for you because you die... but one DD down isnt wipe for the raid.... one tank down is in most times raid wipe... whats more punishing?

[ember arrow]

Doing optimal dmg is harder than not dying

For tanks

[livid anvil]

doing optimal dmg as tank and not dying even more

[ember arrow]

If u can focus dps

Ur farming

Tank dps isnt the reason why you pick tanks over others

[tawny panther]

Irrelevant. Youre saying the role is easier. The point being you stay alive then pump as much damage as you can if doing role right

[junior igloo]

I have to say I'm surprised by this opinion, because I play both (did all mythic bosses on multiple dps and on multiple tanks) and dps is just so much simpler to me, I just relax and hit the boss.
If I don't focus on farm, I get 90 percentile instead of 99.
On a tank I feel so much more responsibility and if I space out for a second, I can wipe the raid so easily even now.

[tawny panther]

Healer is the hardest role anyway. The most punishing to mistakes is tank I'd say

[ember arrow]

Doing as much as i can isnt same as focusing

On dps

Ofc i do as much as i can

[grim prism]

Tank is more responsibility just based on the fact that there are two of you and 15 dps, but i feel it is less punishing to actually perform

[ember arrow]

Focusing means picking dd trinkets, talents

[grim prism]

Like the vast majority of wipes ive had have been to losing DPS, not tanks

[tawny panther]

Focusing means thinking about it more by definition lol

[grim prism]

Idk if thats just another issue of statistical distribution

[tawny panther]

Gearing for it is trinkets

[green forge]

tanking is less punishing when the tank is good. a bad tank stresses the healers then the dps have to play cleaner as well.

[junior igloo]

Well of course, @grim prism
There are 15 dps and 2 tanks.
Obviously 15 will make more total mistakes than 2 people

[green forge]

you notice a bad tank much more than a bad dps

[livid anvil]

My Experience is the same... Main Tank and when I play a DD. Its so confusingly boring because you have nothing to do except keep your rota up...

[tawny panther]

A tank misposiitong or turning boss is a wipe, a dps jumping off the platform shouldn't be. Several yeah but that's sevrrsl

[hollow pine]

Yeah i cant dps, get bored too quickly

[green elbow]

Then there are fights like vari where as the non mobile tank you spend most of the time with discord muted watching netflix waiting for your raid to stop being stupid.

[tawny panther]

So some tank mistakes are more punishing j guess is correct

[grim prism]

Like what toribar says, once you have the fight rehearsed to the point of not dying, its just trying to squeeze out more DPS

Clearly its a controversial opinion lol

[tawny panther]

Discussion is (usually) good

[grim prism]

Maybe im just more used to tanking than DPS

[tawny panther]

There's some crossover here it started as a difficulty discussion and spiralled lol

[hollow pine]

I can't stand it when other people tank usually, maybe I'm a control freak 😂

[junior igloo]

@green elbow
Even on Vari tbh, boss is at 90 energy, so you press your SotR or Rune Tap, instead of Shadow Strike, he casts something else first, your buff expires and SS one-shots you.
What can you mess up as a dps? Run left and then right every 30 seconds

[grim prism]

You can obviously polish up your mitigation as well as squeezing more DPS, but once you have a few dozen pulls in and everyone has their cooldowns slated out, tanking basically handles itself (at least in Legion thus far)

[ember arrow]

Why would u use RT on vari

[junior igloo]

Wasn't it standard?

[chilly brook]

Sorry been driving

[ember arrow]

Not for me. Wotn always did the job

[somber dragon]

I am just a lfr hero after nightwell :(

[ember arrow]

But u press AM when he almost got 100 energy

Not at 90

[grim prism]

Plus i think DPS is more competitive just based on statistics. Last expac you could get a 70 parse as a prot war by just showing up and having gear lol

[ember arrow]

U waste the second or so

[chilly brook]

@cosmic cargo it’s only shorter by 3 seconds total

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[cosmic cargo]

what's this reply to?

i forgot what i was last talking about here

[chilly brook]

Isb duration

[cosmic cargo]

ah

[chilly brook]

Was just catching up

[cosmic cargo]

is that assuming 4/4 potent kick?

[chilly brook]

I assume that’s an azurite trait?

[junior igloo]

90 to 100 is 1 second, so I'd say it counts 😛

[cosmic cargo]

no it's an artifact trait

[chilly brook]

Oh yea it is

[rotund citrus]

Also, 100% uptime is 100% uptime. It doesn’t matter if they shorten it by 3sec if you can still maintain 100% uptime, sure it messes with your rotations bit— and I suppose it’ll make it harder to maintain, but 100% uptime... still 100% uptime.

[ember arrow]

It does but he wont cast it at 90 energy

So its a waste

RT is off gcd so no need to precast it

[junior igloo]

Sure I guess, you can time it closer if you wish, I always prefer to have it on the last hit before shadow strike if possible, but the point is the same

Very simple boss for a melee, much easier to mess up on a tank

[ember arrow]

His melees hit dks harder than slash

Most zzzzzz boss ever

I never did escort

So it was zzzzzzzz

[rotund citrus]

Maybe this was just our tanks being bad, but when my old guild first tried Vari on normal we wiped for 30minutes or so, until the Tanks finally figured out how it worked.

[ember arrow]

Well thats... impressive

In a bad way

[cosmic cargo]

it was fun to MT as vengeance just because it was all about optimizing dps

[junior igloo]

I main tanked on warrior/paladin and escorted on monk/DK actually.
Escorting was more relaxing for me, you just do the same thing on repeat

[ember arrow]

On normal its "taunt when energy goes to 0"

[green elbow]

@junior igloo I was speaking specifically to mythic and the necrotic plague on vari, good example of it being super punishing for a dps

[ember arrow]

Even without addons

[green elbow]

Even a slight misstep is almost certainly a wipe

[ember arrow]

@junior igloo i never escorted so idk if its chill or not. All im saying is maintanking him was sleepunducing

[green elbow]

Also I was mostly including it for humor, not meant in a serious tone

[junior igloo]

The only "issue" with Vari is that one mistake wipes you. So you can't continue to practice and let other people try it.
So everyone messes up 2-3 times, that's 50 wipes right there

[ember arrow]

I never stepped foot in any legion raid as dps

[junior igloo]

Tank get to practice their mechanic every pull, so usually after few pulls they know what to do

[ember arrow]

Unless eating feast

[grim prism]

Lol

[ember arrow]

Everyone should have extensive knowledge beforehand

Or u waste hours

[grim prism]

I almost got benched over insisting to use str flasks in NH

[ember arrow]

10iq RL

[rotund citrus]

I remember in Tomb— boss fights when in the entire progression, I only got certain mechanics on me once or twice in all of progression, I just got super lucky. Like whatever stupid rebuff they had on Sisters, I never even got that— and when I did get it, it was like: “WHAT IS THIS!?”

[junior igloo]

Eh, even if you know, it's not the same as trying it yourself

[ember arrow]

ye but no "wtf do i do" moments

Its way less wipes

[grim prism]

Yeah they were insistent on having stam for krosus, not realizing more IP was more important than a slight HP buffer

[rotund citrus]

Most people learn by doing, not by watching or hearing. So until they DO a mechanic— they won’t feel comfortable knowing WHAT to do when they are hit by that mechanic.

[grim prism]

They wanted me to spongetank not realizing it was more healer stress

[ember arrow]

If idk that KJ meteor is blockable and die 4 times be4 figuring it out thats a waste of time @junior igloo

Stuff like that

[junior igloo]

Of course it helps, but we never enforced learning fights in detail before progression.
You have a general idea of course from doing heroic and watching a video or two, but you learn details and develop muscle memory as you progress

[grim prism]

Yeah, experience is the best teacher

Prog wipes are basically machine learning for humans

I call it procedural smartifying

[junior igloo]

Still probably had the lowest wipe count on Argus I think 😛

[ember arrow]

Not in detail meiffert

Just ur role ;)

For the fight

In detail would be everything

[strong forum]

oh shit, anybody paid attention to army of the light ring changes?

or am i just late to the party

[ember arrow]

Ye its still bad

[strong forum]

i mean 2% dmg aint bad

[ember arrow]

But others are better

[green elbow]

I'm just assuming the 2% healing hits IP as well?

not that that makes any noticible difference, just checking

[somber dragon]

totally stealing "procedural smartifying" 👌

[grim prism]

😎

[uneven mason]

"Pavlovian Conditioning"

[grim prism]

Operant Self-Flagellation

University studies have shown that random positive reinforcement is the best conditioning framework for incentivizing behavior, e.g. motivating your employees, or titanforging your drops 😬

[neon prawn]

😉

[green elbow]

That was first shown in rats, actually

[buoyant inlet]

question for you guys: with IP being on the global CD, I want to be much more careful about using it. Taking Magic Damage out of the equation, if I have Shield Block up my IP will necessarily be less effective right? It will only be mitigating 50% of the damage that gets through Shield Block?

[green elbow]

If you give a rat a treat every time it hits a buzzer, it will hit the buzzer, eat the treat, and stop when it is full

If you do not give it ever, it will stop trying and starve to death

[buoyant inlet]

and, therefore, my rage spent doesn't go as far? I was thinking of saving IP for when incoming Magic damage or shield block is on CD

[neon prawn]

Rats react incredibly similar to humans when impacted by specific stimuli

[green elbow]

If you give it randomly when pressed

The rat will kill itself by over eating

[grim prism]

Well yeah, but that doesnt mean it is wasted @buoyant inlet

[green elbow]

and will never, ever, stop pressing the button

(this is actually true, go look it up)

[grim prism]

It will probably be needed for boss mechanics that deal blockable damage

[buoyant inlet]

right right, if i really need more mitigation, but its definitely less effective than on its own right? during trash, etc

[grim prism]

@green elbow see also: mcdonalds customees

[junior igloo]

@buoyant inlet
Technically yes, but if you are doing relevant content, the limiting factor on IP is the total reduced damage anyway (so it will reduce that much in 1-2 hits) rather than the timer.

[grim prism]

So another way to look at it, is block makes your IP go further

[buoyant inlet]

and lazy question here, but does the "buff" ignore pain go away when the absorb is used up?

[neon prawn]

I use IP as a damage smoother. When I’m taking big chunks of damage I use the last stand/bolster talent and spam IP then.

[grim prism]

Yes @buoyant inlet

To the second Q anyway

[neon prawn]

In normal situations I make sure it’s up after my shield block. IP isn’t the priority

[grim prism]

I dont think calling it less effective is necessaroly accuraye

[buoyant inlet]

yeah right now my mitigation priorities are shield block -> last stand -> IP if those are on CD or im close to rage capping and dont want to spend on revenge

[neon prawn]

It feels a lot better than it did.

[buoyant inlet]

but i'm wondering if it would be better for me to stack IP on top of SB in more cases

[grim prism]

If you burn the entire absorb, IP has been used at 100% effectiveness whether that takes two hits or a dozen

[neon prawn]

With the GCD, the decision making behind mitigation is way more important and could be the difference during heavy damage

[grim prism]

Imo smoother is always better

Which is the idea behind the TMI tanking metric

[buoyant inlet]

and smoothing would be to NOT use it during shield block uptime UNLESS i need it for spike damage incoming

[grim prism]

Well let me ask you this

[buoyant inlet]

but i get the point, the only time IP is less effective is if the timer runs out with absorb left on the table

[grim prism]

Are you actually running out the timer on IP while blocking trash?

Or is the absorb maxing out

[buoyant inlet]

well maybe thats where i'm off. i've got my WA to trigger IP if the buff is NOT up, so idk if the buff goes away when the absorb is used up or simply when the timer expires

i need to figure that out first

[uneven mason]

Marok posted a IP tracker in the pins

even gives you a #

[grim prism]

Plus keep in mind that you have to spend rage on SOMETHING

Either revenge or IP

And there is a difference between dumping and outright wasting

[buoyant inlet]

right exactly

[uneven mason]

Overcapping rage = bad, since you're not cycling AM, even hitting IP or Rev for the sole purpose of dumping rage to AM is a defensive gain. I mean, If the rage was going to be wasted (Overcap) even if IP was not fully used, it was a gain.

[buoyant inlet]

so you want to use revenge when you're not wasting your IP, but i hear a lot of prot warrs only use revenge when its free and just dump the rage into IP

[uneven mason]

depends on the level of damage you're taking

[buoyant inlet]

yeah rage capping is the cardinal sin of prot warr i feel

[grim prism]

If you are doing that, and IP is running out the timer, then yes it is wasting rage that could be used on revs

[stark sage]

well spending rage on revenge is a defensive loss. sometimes you can afford this loss in order to output more damage

[grim prism]

But if you are doing that and still hitting the absorb limit, then mathematically speaking nothing has been wasted

There is more nuance to it than that obviously

[uneven mason]

Its unlikely during active combat you will put IP up and have the timer run out before the absorb was used.

[grim prism]

But the core concept is pretty simple

^ what ikar said

[uneven mason]

even with SB mitigating a huge chunk of the damage

12 is a long time

[junior igloo]

Unless you have 4set

[uneven mason]

true

[stark sage]

you also have to plan the GCD economy a bit

[uneven mason]

with 4set there really isn't a "wasting IP"

[junior igloo]

Then you start at 10k IP, 12 seconds later it expires with 80k left 😄

[uneven mason]

since IP just doesn't go away

heh

dat 4p tho

[green elbow]

Nothing broken here, move along

[grim prism]

WORKING AS INTENDED

[strong forum]

apocalypse drive trinket any good?

[buoyant inlet]

helpful stuff, thanks guys

[chilly brook]

I mean it’d be nice if 4p became baseline

Even in a nerfed form

[uneven mason]

Never Surrender - Blocking an attack now adds 50% of the blocked damage to your Ignore pain, When Ignore pain expires it reduces the CD of Shield Block by 6 seconds (Might compete with Bolster, make HR stronger vs AM)

[grim prism]

Too strong

100% block uptime

Ripski

[opaque pagoda]

I think once the 4P set goes away, people will have a better sense of how truly worthless IP is right now

[uneven mason]

I mean, versus a 30% CD reduction on Last Stand which gives 15s of 100% block 😄

[stark sage]

they kinda do similar things

maybe NS should be good vs non blockable damage

[hollow pine]

Indomitable should give an extra charge of sb to make it competitive

[stark sage]

and just completely rework it

indom doenst need to be better

it works as a talent

[hollow pine]

Meh

[stark sage]

its just very plain

[uneven mason]

Indom is raw HP, and is good in situations where Raw HP is needed.

[hollow pine]

Still weak compared to bolster

Imo

[stark sage]

it is

[uneven mason]

That has a lot to do with how strong bolster is

[grim prism]

Indom strikes me as pretty fucking weak

[stark sage]

but you have to understand that indom is potentiall 10% EHP if you are constantly topped off by healers

that is busted

[hollow pine]

You lose sb uptime though

[stark sage]

just practically its not very good

[junior igloo]

Bolster is OP because AM makes it usable twice as often (it is balanced around having 120s cooldown)

[uneven mason]

^^

[grim prism]

Idk how things will feel in actual content post-squish with 120 stats

[undone sun]

very rarely does rare hp matter

[grim prism]

But its safe to say its been heavily nerfed from Legion to BfA

[uneven mason]

Each talent by itslef isn't a demigod, its the synergy with the ITF/UF/Bolster/BV/AM chain

[grim prism]

And it wasnt that great beforehand

[uneven mason]

Like that build just feeds on itself

[hollow pine]

If 10% hp makes a difference you're probably doing things wrong already

[grim prism]

Right lol

[stark sage]

its just a slippery slope trying to make indom feel competitive with other talents, because it is balanced around the idea that if HP matters

[grim prism]

If EHP mattered enough to make a 10% HP boost relvant, then we would've run it when it was 25% to both HP and IP

[junior igloo]

Indomitable is fine. It would be viable and likely the best talent on high up-time fights (think Aggramar) if it wasn't for AM

[uneven mason]

Balsaq it was competing with Devastator

[stark sage]

EHP always matters

its how you quantify a tanks tankiness

its just HP doesnt always matter because you have healers

[grim prism]

If it were the end-all-be-all of quantifying tankiness then it would be a lot more commonly referenced lol

EHP is not static throughout a fight

[stark sage]

isnt it?