Ragins Train Sets

[vestal minnow]

Hm that would be really fascinating to see

[strange quiver]

one of the main goals I want is that the player should be able to buy a locomotive, and then put it in "their" livery, whether that be something realistic and based on a real railroad, or something fictional

e.g. if you buy a FM Erie Built, if you're running a railroad based on the PRR, you should be able to get it in that livery, even though the PRR never operated them

the problem is with the way I allocate IDs, I can only have around 20 or liveries per locomotive. I could do more, but tbf, even 10 is overwhelming in GNAPS imo, and more than 10 is a lot of work on my end too

so I think it'd be good to limit each locomotive to around 20 liveries

The problem is how to do that, while still giving a pretty good representation

the way I'm thinking of doing that is limiting the liveries I represent to transit operators, passenger operators, and major class 1s

and then I'll sort each of those liveries into "eras" and "type"

so Passenger locomotives like the GE Genesis line will only have liveries introduced post 1990, and only of Transit and Passenger operators

so it'll have Amtrak, Via Rail, MTA, LIRR, MBTA, Metrolink, Go Transit Etc

that seems to be the best way to do it, it'll just require me to do a lot of research on what liveries each railroad had, what era they were used in, and for what type of traffic

so if anyone knows a good source on liveries, lmk, it'd be a great help

Also with the eras thing, I'll probably do a decade + 40 rule. So if a livery is introduced in 1950, all new locomotives up to 2000 would have that livery to account for rebuilds and the like. Hopefully that doesn't end up with too many

I might have to adjust it depending on the amount of liveries

but yh, if anyone has any takes on this I'd appreciate the thought

on the topic, are they any sets that have done something like this before btw? or is anyone working on an idea like that? because to my knowledge, this is probably uncharted territory atm

[strange quiver]

okay, so I sat down to categorise every livery I might want to reasonably include and there's a lot

it's at the top of the loco design doc if you're curious

I think it'll be likely that 20 liveries will just be too few, especially for some locomotives like the F40PH or SD40-2 which had a thousand or so operators

so where I can I'll try trimming them down

but I think the best best will to categorise liveries as I've done there as Transit, Long Distance and Private

and then under each loco, I'll have a variant tree, where the liveries are categorised under that

So something like this, albeit with more liveries

has anyone got a take on this?

I might have to do a test GRF at some point in the near future to make sure it wouldn't be too overwhelming

[strange quiver]

Also if you guys have any iconic liveried you think I should put on my list lmk

[frosty sand]

Do liveries include the colour or are the 2CC? It seems that 20 different livery shapes should be enough if the actual colours are 2CC.

[strange quiver]

Yee, they are

There are some I can combine, but there is a lot more variety than I first thought

[frosty sand]

I mean, if it’s a generic set you could absolutely get away by only having fictional liveries, even if they’re loosely based on real railroads

[strange quiver]

Very true

[frosty sand]

“Swoosh”, “stripes”, “gradient”, etc

[strange quiver]

Tbh that was one thought I had, but I know I'd probably want stuff based on IRL liveries

[frosty sand]

So pick your favorite liveries and ignore the rest 😛

[strange quiver]

I guess

But you've seen what I'm like 😦

[frosty sand]

I get it 🙂

Personally I find it really helpful to set restrictions on myself so I don’t get carried away. In this case I would probably design my own fictional liveries based on real ones but with my own name (e.g “Santa Fe warbonnet = swoosh”) and apply those consistently across all my trains from different eras.

When I play OpenTTD I’m creating my own fictional company, not playing as a real company, so having a consistent corporate identity is more important than role-playing my favorite railroads. It’s nice to be able to switch up liveries for like, an airport train or intercity versus local liveries, without getting stuck on “but I know that’s another railroad and it’s WRONG”.

[strange quiver]

I suppose thats true

And in large part its the design philosophy I use when making my sets

I think I'll look to consolidate liveries into as few as possible tomorrow and see

[mellow loom]

Whereas my philosophy is to draw every livery I can get my hands on 😂

[vestal minnow]

Great to see more liveries! I like to play on napr but the Canadian liveries are rather limited. Some trains are also in Canada but unrepresented in the set

[wind creek]

to be fair, we only have a handful of major railways

[strange quiver]

Id do that too, but if I did, each loco might have 100+ liveries 😦

[mellow loom]

I've never hit 100, but definitely over 30

32 I believe for that, and it's not even fully complete

[strange quiver]

I think for a lot of locos I'll eclipse you in that regard

Aaaa

[vestal minnow]

What set is this from?

[twilit grove]

What grf?

[woeful halo]

Looks like a version of BRtrains

[mellow loom]

BRTrains v2

Specifically that’s the Class 37

[wind creek]

ah yes, the dependable UU '37'

[whole ravine]

do you only add asian trains?

[strange quiver]

To my sets?

No, mainly because I'm not working on an asian train set atm

[strange quiver]

AAAAAA

so one thing I like to do often is look at other people sets to see what they've done, so then I can apply it to my own

One thing I've wanted for a while is the ability to have a single car MU/locomotive be able to have accurate headlights/tail lights even while reversed

Fairyfloss wrote some code a while back that works for the most part

but even still, when you reverse a vehicle it shows tail lights facing forwards

so I'm thinking to just give up and do what iron horse does and have single cars with headlights on facing both directions

seems this is what Japanset, NARS, etc all do too

it'd greatly simplify the code, and I don't think anyone is pedantic enough to notice/car otherwise

okay nvm apparently it is possible as Andy does it with his single car MUs

tbh I think I'll just do what I was thinking anyway, since that code will be a lot simpler

and I'll be able to re-use the NARS code for the locomotive pack

[mellow loom]

You can do it with layered sprites, or just 8 view sprites should work if I’m understanding you correctly?

[strange quiver]

Yeah, that's how all my single cars are set up

the headlights/tail lights are layered on top where needed

but tbh, even though I know what I was is seemingly possible, it's probably not worth pursuing further since it seems to be far more complex than what I'm capable of

[glossy compass]

Are you checking both reversed and flipped states?

You would probably only need flipped now that I think about it

[strange quiver]

I think that was in the code I was using

Buts its a lot more complex than I'm able to understand

[strange quiver]

did the RDCs :3

I'm gonna try and do a prototype of the loco pack in the near-ish future

since I've wittled down my livery list

so I'll get a test pack ready and see what people think

I'll try and do a passenger, freigt and mixed traffic hood and cowl unit, and an electric locomotive

also a dual-mode, since that's something that would be cool

I'm hoping have the effects change based on track type shouldn't be too hard?

if anybody has any specific locomotives they think I should use for testing lmk

[frosty sand]

The FL9 is the only dual-mode the world needs 😛

[strange quiver]

but what if I made an overhead line version of the FL9? >:)

[frosty sand]

Cursed!

(Actually they did originally have overhead pickup for third rail gaps in Grand Central Terminal)

[frosty sand]

Two potential oddities for you: 🙂
https://railpictures.net/photo/695763/
https://railpictures.net/photo/861364/

[red stump]

Pshh I already hit him up for the p5a

Would be funny to have a modified variant too

[frosty sand]

I didn’t check the spreadsheet 🙂

[mellow loom]

I love how quickly this has become "Weird American train requests for Ragin"

[crystal crag]

The WAT set; Weird American Trains

[strange quiver]

That'll be the add on set I do when I finally lose my mind

[strange quiver]

Ill defo have to do those trailers when I do the freight pack

And the P5 I love so of course I'm doing it 🙂

[red stump]

NA stuff is sorely lacking, not to mention getting any attention from talented drawers

I will be shilling the crap out of this set when its done haha

[strange quiver]

Just be warned it wont be for a while!

I do still want to work on GOPs and rework GNARTS

[red stump]

no pressure at all just sayin'

even if it's two years from now this will still be true haha

[strange quiver]

true true

although tbf, in 6-8 months I've made everything I have so far

so I could imagine if I push myself, the loco pack could be out by the end of the year

especially since so much of the research is already done

[frosty sand]

You’ve really done some great work so far, and surprisingly quickly

[strange quiver]

yeah 😦

only thing that will slow me down is that I'm going for jobs atm

so aa

[red stump]

Gofundme for ragin so he can do more sprites

[strange quiver]

oh no 😦

[red stump]

Do you have anything up on bananas currently? I can throw it into a JGR game

[strange quiver]

GNARTS is up and ready to go

[red stump]

🫡

[strange quiver]

I also have the latest version of GOPS here, but I'm still waiting to touch up the code

but it'd also be good to go in a JGR game

it just doesn't have any intercity EMUs or passenger cars

[red stump]

Next reset isn't for a couple weeks so there's some time still

[strange quiver]

all good

it probably wouldn't be worth doing a run with GOPS at least until I've got a loco pack up and ready

since Auztrains is good, it just doesn't have 2cc or anything

[red stump]

I can combine it with auztrains and NARS maybe

Could be an interesting game

[strange quiver]

that works

[red stump]

Get a desert map up perhaps

[strange quiver]

I normally mix NARS with my sets often so I know they work together

[red stump]

Perf

[strange quiver]

:3

but yh, I'll also need to work on my australian locomotive and the US and Australian freight packs

the latter two should be pretty simple since there won't be anywhere near as many liveries

just lots of cargo variety

but aaaa, so much stuff to make 😦

[finite mountain]

I got a good suggestion for if you ever do steam locomotives. Timken #1111 or better known as "The Four Aces" was a 4-8-4 Northern A-1 Class steam locomotive built in 1930 during The Great Depression by the American Locomotive Company aka Alco for the Timken Roller Bearing Company. It was the only A-1 Class built. It featured a special green livery with the Timken name on the Tender, a plaque with the names of all the manufacturers and people that built the locomotive on the tender, and the heart, spade, ace, and diamond symbols on the front. It was the first ever steam locomotive to be fully equipped with roller bearings and was used to advertise Timken's roller bearings that were much better than the plain bearings or friction bearings. It was later sold to the Northern Pacific and renumbered to #2626 and was retired in 1957 and scrapped

Honestly, this could be a really cool first steam locomotive (that is if you plan on doing steam locomotives)

[strange quiver]

I could tbh

I do plan on doing steam locomotives at some point, I just need to learn how to draw them

[frosty sand]

When you get to cargos, you could potentially get a head start from Andy’s repo for Horse, Hog, Sam, etc: https://github.com/andythenorth/polar-fox

It’s automated for those GRFs but you could probably just borrow sprites manually and copy cargo tables etc. for full FIRS matching

[mellow loom]

Just do what the rest of us do: steal shit from Iron Horse then modify it

[strange quiver]

Tbh thats what I was thinking of doing

I'll chuck a few more cargo sprites of my own in the mix just to spice things up tho

[void mist]

if you ever do american steam locomotives it would be amazing to have the streamlined ones, i think nobody did them before

[woeful halo]

You clearly haven't used NARS

[wind creek]

you mean the ones like the Century Limited's 4-6-4 Hudsons?

I'm sure there are dozens of those

it's an iconic train

[strange quiver]

"I should probably film that video I wrote about the market frankford line cars"

legit 2 days later

https://fixupx.com/SEPTAPHILLY/status/1816564075611955636

new SEPTA cars drop, and they go hard

[strange quiver]

fasted time to port a train into a game world record glitchless

[frosty sand]

Hell yeah

[strange quiver]

I wanted to sleep in today, but I woke up legit just as they posted the announcement

my summoning is complete, now I'm going to sleep

[frosty sand]

Haha sleep well

I am on a SEPTA train right now lol

[strange quiver]

ooooh? which one?

[frosty sand]

Silverliner V

[strange quiver]

ah fair

I still need to draw those

[frosty sand]

Your trains allow single-car operation, right? SEPTA runs a single-car V on the Cynwyd Line

I passed it a few minutes ago, always gives me the impression they forgot the rest of the train somewhere

[strange quiver]

yee

if there's a single car version of a train available, I'll add it

even though it basically doubles the work 😦

it's what I've done for the Arrows and Silverliners so far

[frosty sand]

Heheh it’s a bit silly IRL. Single car trains aren’t even legal anywhere but the Cynwyd Line because the signal system can’t reliably detect it, but that line is so short its run is either within interlocking limits or on the single-track Cynwyd branch itself

[strange quiver]

that's very strange

[frosty sand]

PanamaLiner is a new one to me, never heard of that 🙂

[strange quiver]

it was one of the Budd illinois Central proposals I showed off a while back

Panamaliner wasn't its name, but I just gave it something fictional

it's really cool imo

[frosty sand]

Single cars have often had detection problems, particularly when an emergency brake application engages the sanders. There was at least one bad wreck related to that of a NYC RDC car. And SEPTA had a single RDC car hit a fuel tanker truck at a grade crossing…

Oh cool

[strange quiver]

oh god :/

it makes sense though, since iirc small railbuses like that have become less common even in Australia

[frosty sand]

Metro Electric (former IC) is a neat operation

[strange quiver]

Ik with the sprinters in victoria they have to run them as 2 car sets for the same reason

[strange quiver]

yeah

and in GNAPS, I'm including all its proposed cars

so I guess in that alternate universe all of Metra was electrified or something? idk

[frosty sand]

We can dream. I don’t play North American maps often but when I do it’s generally an electrified utopia

[strange quiver]

yeah, me too pretty much

its why GNAPS and my loco pack will have so many EMUs and electric locomotives

[frosty sand]

The Northeast Corridor is about the only place we have transit that would be considered acceptable to the civilized world. I moved here for the first time a few months ago and I don’t think I can go back to a transit desert haha

I get to ride the Acela in a couple weeks and feel like I live in a society

[strange quiver]

yeah

whenever I go to the US I really wanna go to the Northeast corridor

idk why but its one of those pieces of infrastructure I've always found fascinating

[frosty sand]

When you do, ride Metro-North into Grand Central Terminal. It is the ONLY way to enter New York.

The older M2/4/6 cars had only a corner cab so you could stand at the front and look out the front window. I did that a lot growing up. Snaking into the underground platforms and then emerging into the GCT concourse is a pretty magical experience. I’ve been to a lot of train stations in the US and Europe, but GCT is by far my favorite.

At least in terms of the main concourse

[strange quiver]

I'll have to keep that in mind then

I do wanna ride those cosmpolitan trains

[frosty sand]

I mean heck, if I still live on the NEC when you visit I’ll personally show you around 😄

[strange quiver]

idk why but I really like the way they look

[frosty sand]

Oh yeah, they’re icons of industrial design

[strange quiver]

sure :3

[strange quiver]

yeah

god I love Budd designs

[frosty sand]

Me too

I’m at my stop, talk to you later

Feel free to go back to sleep now 😛

[strange quiver]

I would but its 8:30 now 😦

so I might as well go do something else

but yh, talk to you later

[earnest meadow]

https://x.com/AussieWirraway/status/1816687524624097577

TomOyn 🚉🏗️ (@AussieWirraway) on X

Official Adelaide Metro comms art. Adelaide Metro New York City

Twitter · Jul 26, 2024, 4:10 AM

💀

[strange quiver]

New fictional GOPs train :3

[wind creek]

mmm trains

[strange quiver]

Goofy trains >:33

[vestal minnow]

https://www.ddinstagram.com/p/C92UlN9x9h5/?igsh=MWdxaWFjYnFneGQycw==

[strange quiver]

We must retvrn

[mint cargo]

Some interesting stuff i found on DeviantArt that could be possibility for Locomotive Set: https://www.deviantart.com/alpalarchive/art/Cal-Pac-HF300-series-911547235

https://www.deviantart.com/alpalarchive/art/Cal-Pac-SD70AHT4-DM-series-903466473

https://www.deviantart.com/alpalarchive/art/Cal-Pac-DF250-series-907447434

[vestal minnow]

What kind of locomotive is this one?

[mint cargo]

Look´s like is based on a JRF DF200, but american version style.

[vestal minnow]

Wow

Nice to see more alternative locos

[finite mountain]

Looks more like it's based on the Class 47/57 or Class 50 with a more American style to it

[mellow loom]

More like the Class 90, Yankee Diesel Edition

[strange quiver]

oooh, I'll have a look

I will have to modify the dual mode SD40-2, since irl there was a proposed dual mode version but it used a diamond pantograph mounted right on top of the cab

[strange quiver]

dual mode SD70 goes hard tho

[red stump]

Dual mode sd70 would actually probably be a realistic take on things lol

If tomorrow Biden was like "we're nationalizing the railroads! Fuck you class Is" and they decided to electrify all the major freight routes you know the first thing they'd do is just start sticking pantos on top of GEVOs

[strange quiver]

Yeah

Tbf that was the plan back in the 70s

Albeit with uboats and Sd40s

[terse sandal]

we're nationalizing the railroads! Fuck you class Is
They would never be able to do that, car company owners own all major railroads, as otherwise car business will crumble

[mellow loom]

If the government wants to nationalise it, it probably gets nationalised - the thing about nationalisation is that it's basically a forced purchase or takeover. The law says "the government is buying/taking over X business" and that's (give or take) that. Unless a court rules the law invalid or something, but the government can pretty much pass a new law saying it can do so

[terse sandal]

That's true of course, but I mean, US govt. is so lobbied that I don't think it will come to this in a foreseeable future

[wind creek]

I mean sure, it's legally possible

but it will never happen because it's politically radioactive

which sucks because the Class 1s really should be nationalised tbh

[red stump]

I'm joking brotha

[vestal minnow]

Across the US and Canada, passenger trains were taken over from the railroad companies by Amtrak and VIA respectively

[soft stump]

Is this thread about Generic Trains anymore? I wanted to know if it was still in development

[strange quiver]

kinda?

PGT as a GRF is dead

but the idea behind it isn't

it's just I've started using real-ish names for things, but having everything in 2cc is still the ideal

[soft stump]

Cool!

I have another question though, what newgrf is in discussion here then?

[strange quiver]

quite a few actually

so I have GOPS, which is the Generic Oceanian Passenger set, so passenger cars and MUs from Australia and NZ

there's also GNAPS, which is the same, but content from North America

then theres GNARTS which is North American Metros and rapid transit

and the one I've been talking a lot about is the North American locomotive pack

GOPS, GNAPS, and GNARTS all have playable GRFS, while the loco pack I'm gonna bash together a prototype for sometime this week

[soft stump]

Thanks! I'll check them out to see if I'll add them to my game

Are they on bananas?

[strange quiver]

GNARTS and GOPS are

just GOPS is still an old release

[soft stump]

Thanks! have a good day/evening/afternoon/night

[strange quiver]

here's the most recent GOPS file, it's still in need of some tweaks

but otherwise playable, and the code tweaks it needs won't break anything when its taken care of

[soft stump]

I can't find GNAPS on bananas

[strange quiver]

Also here's the latest test version of GNAPS

[strange quiver]

it's not on there yet, it's still WIP

[soft stump]

oh nevermind

I misread

[strange quiver]

IDs and everything are sorted with this, so when it updates its unlikely to break

[strange quiver]

all good :3

but yh, if you give them a play lmk how it goes, and if there's anything you'd want included or changed

I'm very open to feedback, and I suggestions are very much welcome >:3333

[soft stump]

I play in a full eyecandy fashion and i know very little about Oceanian trains

but I'll be happy to feedback

[strange quiver]

if anything that'd be ideal

it'd at least give me some cool screenshots to look at :3

[soft stump]

Im trying GOPS on a new save, it's very cool. If anything I'd add the train's role to it's name on the buy list

I like that in PGS you can quickly tell the role of the train which helps the symptoms of buylist-clutter

[strange quiver]

I could do that, but I also feel like it'd make a lot of train names way too long

[soft stump]

makes sense

Do you plan on updating the bananas version soon?

I play the same save on two different computers so being able to download NewGRF quickly is important to me

[strange quiver]

I can, I just need to touch up some code things

but it's not too important so I might just do it now tbh

[soft stump]

That's great, thanks!

[strange quiver]

and on the nana store >:3

[soft stump]

as agreed, here's a screenshot of the train I liked the most in my favourite spot

[strange quiver]

ooooooh nice

[soft stump]

thanks!

[strange quiver]

also the contrast between my new and old sprites is just aa

[soft stump]

Yeah, the new ones look much better

maybe I'll replace the older ones but that would probably have consequences

[strange quiver]

probably not

as long as you replace the Mu cars in the middle too it'll be fine

the balance will be different though

[soft stump]

I mean in my network

[strange quiver]

oh they have the same power/capacity/speed stats

[soft stump]

That's great

thanks a LOT for all the help

[strange quiver]

nw :3

also, complete tangent, but I'm working on that prototype for the loco pack atm

got a few of the angles for the first loco done

if anyone can name it you're a nerd

[strange quiver]

tbh I'm really happy with how this looks

and now since it's in the mixed traffic category, it gets all the passenger and freight liveries 😦

so let's see how that works out

[twilit grove]

what loco is that

[strange quiver]

EMD JT6C

basically a dual-cab version of the GF6C

[strange quiver]

I'm cooking >:3

also ignore the base CC1 livery, I forgot to enable the pantographs when I exported it

[strange quiver]

only just realised it should technichally be "JF6C", since JT denotes dual-cab locomotive with a turbocharger, while JF is dual-cab with cowl body

long distance passenger liveries done

skipped a few (piedmont, cascades, etc) because they don't really work with a dual-cab locomotive, but I reserved their ids

now onto transit liveries

[strange quiver]

this is a cry for help 😦

[glossy compass]

What do you need help with?

[strange quiver]

someone needs to stop me doing so many liveries 😦

[glossy compass]

Won't uni do that 😔

[strange quiver]

no, I have one subject this semester 😦

but I do have an interview on wednesday, so that might stop me 😦

[turbid bronze]

hey! Having a play with GOPSv5, there seems to be a massive difference in the running costs between diesels and electrics, the electrics are ridiculously cheap to run and hardly much more to purchase than the diesels.

hmm, the electrics are very low horsepower by comparison

[strange quiver]

I'll have to have a look at the balancing then

[strange quiver]

how so?

[turbid bronze]

Yeah, I can use the multipliers to bring the whole set in line with other sets, but there seems to be a massive difference between the diesels and electrics.

[turbid bronze]

ah sorry in that instance I was comparing an apple to an orange. Let me look at it and scratch my chin some more.

[strange quiver]

yeah, I'll take a look at the balance later then

tbh I was thinking it might be a bit off

I'll go back and try and balance it against something like NARS and UKRS

[turbid bronze]

Yeah so I'm comparing the Comeng XPT-E and the Comeng HPT, both express push-pull train sets, the HPT is nearly 10x the running cost of the XPT-E with a 40km/h speed difference in favor of the more expensive to run diesel.

[strange quiver]

I'll have to adjust that, but for now the XPT-E is somewhat experimental

since I'm still yet to do the express EMU tree

I might have to bump its stats around a bit

[turbid bronze]

yeah, the tenfold difference in electrics to diesels seems to be roughly consistent though

[strange quiver]

I guess that means bumping electrics to be maybe half the cost would be the way to go or something?

because they should be cheaper to buy/run

their main cost should be on the infrastructure side

[turbid bronze]

I mean have a look at what other sets do if they have useful comparisons. For me I expect costs shouldn't be too dissimilar, I typically tend to look at electrics being able to achieve far greater density/frequency of service by comparison, faster loading, faster acceleration, faster braking.

as in, that's what I expect when playing a set,

maybe I'm huffing paint fumes

[strange quiver]

I don't think you are, I think that's a fair point

it is how I've tried to balance EMUs vs DMUs after all

EMUs generally carry more and load faster, and tend to have higher power to weight ratios

so even if DMUs and EMUs have the same running costs, technichally the EMUs are still cheaper

[turbid bronze]

Yeah, that's what I tend to expect from most sets.

[strange quiver]

when I get time, I'll have a go and rebalance it

[turbid bronze]

👍

[strange quiver]

especially since I'll need to do that before I add any more content to it

[turbid bronze]

graphical quality though feels like it has increased dramatically since the last release, you're getting pretty bloody good at pushing pixels.

[strange quiver]

thanks :3

I'm really happy with how my stuff is coming out now

my earlier sprites now just make me cringe

[strange quiver]

okay, so that's all the private operator liveries done too

I'm thinking if I want to do this many liveries for the loco pack, it'll take a long time

because I started this around 2:30 and now its 8:30

but by the same token, you can make pretty much any railroads livery so...

so many liveries 😦

so yh, only mixed traffic locos will have this many liveries, and some of the passenger locos

I've put each group of liveries under their own category, so Amtrak/Via rail, Transit operators, and private operators are grouped together

so hopefully that means its not too overwhelhming

and if anyone wants to take a proper look, or test, here's the GRF

[frosty sand]

You might use the name callback to name the category headers (intercity/transit/private) when they are in that position, otherwise I was confused why there are three groups of the same loco 🙂

[strange quiver]

ooooh, how would I do that?

[frosty sand]

I don’t actually know, you might ask @signal gate how it’s done in Horse 🙂

[strange quiver]

I've tried looking at horse, but it could never work out how its coded to sus it out myself 😦

[signal gate]

the name callback stuff is way too complicated in Horse

it's oof

[frosty sand]

Okay, so you need to use the name callback and use a switch to choose either the normal string or the category header string depending on the value of extra_callback_info1

Possible values are listed here: https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Callbacks#Engine_name_.28161.29

[signal gate]

there's both purchase and autoreplace to think about

[frosty sand]

Looks like you’re interested in both the context and the nested level to determine if it’s a header or not

[signal gate]

yes

so you have to know if it has children

possibly there's a better way, but eh

oh and we're limited on strings

so it has to use the text stack

so yeah, not the easiest

a significant percentage of the Horse nml is just the name callback handling

[strange quiver]

yeah, so what I'm seeing is there isn't a chance I'll be able to understand it myself :/

maybe there's a work around with naming things? Maybe it could be EMD JF6C (Passenger/Transit/Private) or something?

idk

[frosty sand]

Text stack is incredibly silly but once you understand it, you feel like a wizard

At least I did 😛

There’s working NML for the text stack with some documentation here: https://github.com/2TallTyler/improved_town_industries/blob/master/src/functions.nml

Also requires paying attention to the {SKIP} tags in the strings, which aligns the fill-in-the-blanks in the string with the registers that the switch writes to

That said, does this use require the text stack if each train only has two strings? (Normal and header) What is the string limit?

[signal gate]

think it's the D0xx strings, which are 1024

but not sure

I know I hit the limit when I tried pre-composing the strings

[strange quiver]

I'll have to look into it tomorrow maybe

but just skimming it, I don't even know what code would do it

[vestal minnow]

Thought it was electric?

Based on the painting posted

Or is it dual mode

[strange quiver]

It is electric

I will do a dual mode loco at some point tho

[vestal minnow]

Ah so you hid the catenary wires

[finite mountain]

Do you plan on making the GM6C?

[strange quiver]

yee :3

[strange quiver]

I do :3

but yh, after sleeping on it, I think my plan for the loco pack will be to try and be a 1:1 replacement for NARS/NARS Add-on (at least long term)

so I'll more than likely just copy the balancing that NARS has for its locomotives

[turbid bronze]

NARS sprites are free to use as well btw, just not the name. Pikka wants people to use their own project names

[strange quiver]

but in the short term, I'll work on adding locomotives that are missing from NARS (most electric locomotives)

[turbid bronze]

I've got his original spreadsheets for ballancing the set btw

formulas and shit

[frosty sand]

👀

[strange quiver]

oh I know, most of my sprites are going new though, and I'm not going to use the NARS name

[turbid bronze]

as I was looking at doing it myself but ehhhhhhh

effort

[strange quiver]

oooh, feel free to send it over if you want :3

[turbid bronze]

yeah I'll have to dig it up

[strange quiver]

perfect

but yh, that'll help avoid the balancing pitfalls I've made with GOPS

[turbid bronze]

might even give you some direction for rebalancing that set as well

[strange quiver]

and priority to start with will go to stuff that isn't in NARS/NARS add-on

[turbid bronze]

and gnarts

[strange quiver]

oh perfect then

[turbid bronze]

its an openoffice document

[strange quiver]

luckily I'm weird and have openoffice installed

also in the same vein, do you know where the code/sprite source for the original NARS is?

it could be a useful reference

[turbid bronze]

I have it, but it's NFO

[strange quiver]

fair :/

well are you able to send over just the sprites? since I can use them as references for drawing?

[strange quiver]

going through and finally assigning ids to everything in the loco pack

gonna set aside a batch for future stuff, and for variants (e.g. low and high hood SD40-2s)

who wants to bet I'll breach the 65k id limit?

[turbid bronze]

well andy hasn't yet so you should be good 🙂

[strange quiver]

yh, but I'm doing so many liveries per loco 😦

and each one uses an ID

[strange quiver]

this guy alone uses nearly 50 😦

[turbid bronze]

here's another thought; do everything as 2CC and the only 'livery' needs to be actual different designs, five different liveries of all flat colour can stay as one ID, etc.

especially if peter finishes rgbCC at some point

[strange quiver]

well that's what I've done

it's just there are so many liveries available

[strange quiver]

oh? what's that?

[strange quiver]

the amount of liveries is also why this one took 6 hours to do last night

[turbid bronze]

oh jesus I just checked it again

[turbid bronze]

infinite company colours

still only two of them, but arbitrary RGB values

[strange quiver]

ooooh god I'd love that

that, and the ability to have maybe 3/4 company colours and I'd be happy

[wind creek]

3CC would be overly complex I think

[strange quiver]

maybe, but a lot of liveries IRL tend to be 3-4 colours

and it means I could set one company colour to the body, and then one for secondary stuff like stripes

it'd allow me to do a lot more with fewer liveries if anything

[wind creek]

fair, I'm just worried about the interface

or squeezing a third company colour set into the 8bpp palette

[strange quiver]

yeah, those would be the biggest hurdles if anything

[turbid bronze]

rgbcc already breaks out of the 8bpp palette anyway

in terms of magic colours, eh, just pick another continuous colour block

its only gonna get used for a mask anyway,

and like 2cc if you don't use the flag it stays as green anyway

[strange quiver]

so I guess someone just needed to code a patch and 3/4cc would be possible?

[turbid bronze]

anythings possible if you know C++ adequately and have the time

[strange quiver]

true

someone else will probably have to do it, since I don't know C++ 😦

I barely understand NML

[frosty sand]

That’s where I started too 🙂

Taught myself NML in 2020, then moved on to C++ a year later

I don’t know any other languages (arguably don’t really know C++ that well 😛 )

[strange quiver]

I guess I'll have to add C++ to my to-do list for next year then :3

[frosty sand]

Heheh come join the fun

[strange quiver]

I gues I'll have to 😦

[turbid bronze]

it happens to the best of us, I've even got a few authored patches in JGRPP to my name now.

[strange quiver]

tbh I probably should learn it at some point, but I also have a lot on my plate so aaaaaaaa

[strange quiver]

oh? which ones are those?

[turbid bronze]

custom town zones, some stuff about rivers, few other things I probably forgot

[strange quiver]

oh fairo then!

[turbid bronze]

jgr has rewritten a few of them, or integrated them into his nml fork

all very very simple patches

[frosty sand]

If you can learn coding as quickly as you picked up sprite art, you’ll be just fine 😄

[turbid bronze]

basically find hardcoded numbers I disagree with and change them 😛

[frosty sand]

(Obviously those are not similar skills)

[strange quiver]

that works

[strange quiver]

that's the problem, I'm terrible with coding 😦

[frosty sand]

Honestly NML is a bad judge for that, it’s a pretty silly language

[strange quiver]

in what way?

also I assigned the diesel locomotive IDs and I'm up to 23k 😦

a lot of those are just padding in case I change something later but its still a lot

[frosty sand]

Well, it’s mostly markup and not actually programming

Switches are incredibly limited

They can’t take lots of useful things as parameters

[strange quiver]

fair enough then

[wind creek]

yeah NML is mostly defining things

not much actual calculation going on

[strange quiver]

true I suppose

[vestal minnow]

What role do switchers play in openttd?

Some rosters such as the Finnish set are very comprehensive in listing them but what use do they have here?

[strange quiver]

it's just decorative

but I guess they mostly fill a light freight role

[vestal minnow]

Like how the dark blue in game can go with both the new and old via liveries

[strange quiver]

yee, that's how I try arrange to the company colours on the liveries

I like to make it so you don't need to change your CC to get the same colour scheme

[vestal minnow]

Great! Smart idea

Even though the new via livery is more green the blue still makes a convincing result

[strange quiver]

yeah

I gotta try and do my best approximation in that case

[wind creek]

pretty sure 2TT meant switch blocks in NML lmao

[strange quiver]

oh btw, does anyone know how I'd code a locomotive to change sprite based on the type of track its on?

and change power stats depending on the track too?

I'm gonna try and do a dual-mode locomotive this arvo I think

[wind creek]

oh, like raising or lowering a pantograph?

[strange quiver]

yee

[wind creek]

oh cute

[strange quiver]

yee :3

seems there's a variable in NML called 'tile_has_catenary' and 'tile_supports/powers/is_railtype' which seem to be what I'll need

I'm gonna probably do the dual-mode SDP40F, so I'm think the way to do it will be to have the code check for the rail type, and then based on that result it feeds into reverse %2 to flip it the same way NARS Addon does it

[mellow loom]

you can also use ‘current_railtype’

[signal gate]

tile_powers_railtype is the weapon of choice usually

it's got better abstraction

[strange quiver]

I'll have to look into that tomorrow

my plan was to draw a dual-mode loco tonight and then test it, but I got distracted

and I'm a bit anxious about a job interview tomorrow so it's hard to focus

working on an SDP40F to start off with though

[strange quiver]

the worst part about the SDP40Fs is that they looked cool as hell, but were shit locos IRL

[strange quiver]

okay, SDP40Fs done, at least the amtrak liveries and code are

tomorrows job is to try and work out the dual mode code

[glossy compass]

Current railtype is really not recommended since it won't work with tracksets with multiple similar tracks

[vestal minnow]

Can locomotives be "refitted" into another livery?

For example can you upgrade one of these sdp40fs into a newer amtrak livery?

[frosty sand]

No, you replace the train. That is the point of variants — using autoreplace instead of a ton of manual clicking to repaint/upgrade fleets 🙂

Yes, it costs more to buy a new train, but money is a bad feature 😉

[signal gate]

"paint costs money"

[strange quiver]

okay, trying to code that now, but when I try to compile I get "line 176: Parameter for tile_is_railtype() must be a string literal that is also in your railtype table", but ELRL is in my railtype table?

:/

and it works

annoyingly that code doesn't seem to do anything in game

okay so it seems the code works in game, the pantograph raises and lowers as expected

seems either "tile_powers_railtype" or "tile has catenary" works

is there any reason not to use the latter? since it seems to be the way to go for compatibility in the future? since it only checks for overhead line

also is there any way to change the visual effects to change from diesel to electric based on tracktype? since it seems visual effects don't allow a switch to control them

also how would I change power/speed/other stats based on tracktype? I can't seem to find anything on the wiki about it

[terse sandal]

You might be able to fix it by wrapping ELRL in railtype(), yet I am not sure

[strange quiver]

oh I already fixed it, it works perfectly now

I just needed to wrap ELRL in " to make it a literal string

[cold scarab]

... what ide is that?

[finite mountain]

Maybe you should make some fictional VIA Rail SDP40F liveries based on the first 3 liveries

(Referring to these 3 btw)

[strange quiver]

nml creator, I normally use notepad++ and a batch file to compile, but NML creator is just easier to test in

[strange quiver]

yee, I plan to!

all passenger/mixed traffic locotives get all the long distance and transit liveries :3

[finite mountain]

You could also do a livery based on the fictional "Retroliner" train from the game Rails Unlimited

[strange quiver]

I could, it might go in the misc liveries section

but we'll see how I feel after I've completed the prototype

[strange quiver]

okay, home after my interview, and it went well

I also refactored the dual-mode SDP40F code so it uses a sprite stack now, so I can just use the normal SDP40F sprites and then attach a pantograph to them

does anyone know how I'd adjust power and effects based on track type btw?

because it seems you can use switches for those

[signal gate]

graphics {
default: shoebox_switch_graphics;
purchase: shoebox_switch_graphics_purchase;
name: shoebox_variant_6_switch_name;
cost_factor: 101; // CB used as it is capped to max 32k, prop is only 255
// CB should be used even for static running costs as it is capped to max 32k, prop is only 255
running_cost_factor: 1905;
purchase_running_cost_factor: 1905; // purchase set separately to prevent unreliable results from trying to access non-available vars for variable run costs
power: shoebox_switch_power_0;
purchase_power: 950;
additional_text: shoebox_variant_6_switch_buy_menu_additional_text;
colour_mapping: shoebox_switch_colour_mapping;
purchase_colour_mapping: shoebox_switch_colour_mapping;
effect_spawn_model_and_powered: shoebox_switch_effect_spawn_model_and_powered;
create_effect: shoebox_switch_create_effect_check_railtype;
reverse_build_probability: return 50 * param_vehicle_random_reverse_on_build;
}

lots of properties have an equivalent callback, which can be called in the graphics block

so power, create_effect etc

those chain to switches

I can paste Iron Horse code but Horse is complicated

[strange quiver]

if you could it'd be ideal if anything

since I can probably just find those switches and then try and bodge them for my own needs

[signal gate]

follow back shoebox_switch_power_0

[strange quiver]

perfect, hopefully I can work it out >:)))

[signal gate]

they call some procedures

switch (FEAT_TRAINS, SELF, tile_powers_track_type_name_RAIL,
        [
            tile_powers_railtype("IHA_") || tile_powers_railtype("RAIL")
        ]) {
        return;
    }
    switch (FEAT_TRAINS, SELF, tile_powers_track_type_name_RAIL_ELECTRIFIED_AC,
        [
            tile_powers_railtype("IHB_") || tile_powers_railtype("ELRL")
        ]) {
        return;
    }

so when you see tile_powers_track_type_name_RAIL() it's calling the procedure switch tile_powers_track_type_name_RAIL

that returns true or false

Shoebox is electro diesel, and changes power and effects on electrified rail

[strange quiver]

so it seems pretty straightforward then

[signal gate]

it's not hard, just fiddly

[strange quiver]

fair

but once I've done it once, it should be repeatable

god I hate software because something I always miss on thing and then the fix is insanely obvious >:/

works perfectly

now I'm assuming the effects will be similar

[signal gate]

effects have a generation model, an effect sprite type, and a position

[strange quiver]

they seemed pretty straight forward

[strange quiver]

I just use the default VISUAL_EFFECT_DIESEL/ELECTRIC

is there any real reason not to? apart from them not being too accurate I guess

[signal gate]

the other options are just if you want more control

they're not essential

[strange quiver]

fair fair, well I'm not too fussed about them

as long as it works

the one other thing I was gonna ask you is how do you have the language file for the electro-diesels set up?

because I noticed the power rating changes from hp to kw when you change it in the config

so is there a way to have the additional text in the language file set up to change?

[signal gate]

probably uses the text stack, I'll look

[strange quiver]

it does, at least that's what it looks like from what I've seen

I'm trying to sus out how it works and it seems kinda straight forward?

[signal gate]

it kind of is

again, just fiddly

STR_POWER_BY_POWER_SOURCE_TWO_SOURCES :{BLACK}Power on {STRING}: {GOLD}{POWER} {}{BLACK}Power on {STRING}: {GOLD}{POWER}
STR_POWER_BY_POWER_SOURCE_THREE_SOURCES :{BLACK}Power on {STRING}: {GOLD}{POWER} {}{BLACK}Power on {STRING}: {GOLD}{POWER} {}{BLACK}Power on {STRING}: {GOLD}{POWER}

give {POWER} an integer and it will format it correctly for the locale setting

[strange quiver]

seems simple

what does "STR_BUY_MENU_ADDITIONAL_TEXT_WRAPPER_TWO_SUBSTR" lead to btw?

I can't find it in the iron horse language file

[signal gate]

^

[strange quiver]

perfect

what's that toml english file on the github then?

[signal gate]

that's the source, the .lng file is generated from it

STR_BUY_MENU_ADDITIONAL_TEXT_WRAPPER_TWO_SUBSTR are not translateable, so they're not in english.toml

they're in the template file https://github.com/andythenorth/iron-horse/blob/main/src/templates/lang_file.pylng

[strange quiver]

that would make sense then

good news at least, we're getting somewhere

now I need to work out how I've done that

easy as

but yh, thanks for the help andy, it's really appreciated 🙂

also are you planning (or were planning) DC electric stuff for horse? because the language file references DC and AC electrification

[signal gate]

DC is for Ibex

Minimal diesels, two kinds of electric instead

[strange quiver]

fair enough

I look forward to it

tbh I'm tempted to experiment with different electrification schemes for my sets, but I think it'd just get too complex, and most track sets (at least the ones I use) don't support AC/DC OHLE

[signal gate]

I took the view that the train grf has to provide the tracks

it's a bit controversial but eh

[strange quiver]

it makes sense though, it means you only need one GRF for both

and you can disable it if you don't want it anyway

if I do a set with AC/DC electrification I might have to copy you and add an in built track set

only issue is that my sets are large enough, and probably don't need additional AC/DC/Dual-voltage electric trees thrown in 😦

[signal gate]

if you're going fully generic I'd keep it simple

[glossy compass]

I would prefer tile_powers_railtype as it won't accidentally activate on covered metro tracks, it would also be slightly easier to switch to ac/dc later

[strange quiver]

yeah, so I'll just keep it in my back pocket

[strange quiver]

true...

and easy fix

[strange quiver]

Via Rail SDP40Fs :3

[crystal crag]

Are you consider Running Sounds, btw?

[strange quiver]

not really, but I could

have you got any suggestions?

[crystal crag]

Not particularly, but I generally just find it too quiet if a GRF doesn't have running sounds...

[strange quiver]

fair, I could look into it

I just don't have any sounds to use

[crystal crag]

I'm not sure what the license is on the sounds Pikka used for NARS, unfortunately

[strange quiver]

maybe when I do my aussie loco pack I'll include a guy swearing whenver a train breaks down :3

[strange quiver]

I'll look into it, if it's GPL I could probably use it

[woeful halo]

Pikka's licence is usually "ask me on DMs before doing anything."

[mellow loom]

There are a few things he’s specifically released as GPLv2 or given permission for others to use as GPLv2, I’m pretty sure NARS is one of those but I’d make sure to check before using it

[turbid bronze]

My discussion with Pikka regarding NARS was GPL was fine but don’t use the NARS name

[strange quiver]

I might just not worry, since running sounds aren't essential

[turbid bronze]

I mean, I like them, but I tend to play with OpenTTD sound muted anyway

[strange quiver]

Yeah, I'm the same

But I also want to create something that as many people as possible would get use out of

[finite mountain]

After looking online at some train concepts, I found a fictional locomotive concept called the GE P60AC-T4 which is basically just a 6-axel version of the P40/P42 Genesis

Speaking of the GE Genesis, there was a concept for a fictional B-unit version of the P40/P42

[strange quiver]

maybe as a mixed traffic loco it could work?

because Amtrak really doesn't like 6 axle locos

[strange quiver]

I could do it, but I don't really have a place for B-units in the set

[finite mountain]

Yeah it could work as a mixed traffic locomotive

[strange quiver]

yeah

seems the guy who posted it to devianart even though of it as that >:3

[finite mountain]

You could maybe program it so that when you purchase the GE Genesis (or any other locomotives with B-unit variants), there is either a 1/2 or 1/4 chance of a B-unit variant

[strange quiver]

maybe, but since it's not prototypical, a lot of people might not want it

I think what I'm going to do is reserve and id bank for it, and add it as something extra if people want it

[frosty sand]

If you add foamer hallucinations you’ll never finish the GRF 🙂

[strange quiver]

I know 😦

that's why I just reserve an id for them

[frosty sand]

A lot of your fictional trains are based on actual proposals, which is much more legit imo 🙂

[strange quiver]

yeah

I do wanna include fictional mockups that are fun though

but at the same time, only if there's a gap that needs filling and there's no proposal that fills it

also, todays job is going to be to do the SD40-2

but I am just realising all the EMD -2 locos are near identical to their original versions

so I might just lump the SD40 and SD40-2 in together

NARS and NARS add-on differentiates by livery, but I can't do that :/

also stat wise they're all near identical anyway, only difference was the electrical systems

so that'll free up a bunch of slots I guess

[signal gate]

Moose says hi

[strange quiver]

spent most of today working on this on and off and I think it works

I based the shape heavily off of SD40 sprite in NARS Add-on, but I put my own shading/details on it

what I'm thinking of doing is to do the Low/high hood SD40, and the tunnel motor variant on the same sheet, since that should make doing liveries a lot easier

and I'll be able to use the same sheets for the dual-mode version, since I can just stack the pantographs on top

so I effectively get 4 locos out of one sheet >:3333

also it might be fun to give the SD40T-2 the goofy windshield that the cotton belt route used

also I could do the stupid long nose SD40s that Santa fe bought, but I know it'd be too much :3

they look so stupid

[turbid bronze]

LOOOOONG

I dunno I kinda like them

[strange quiver]

don't say that, I don't need to add more SD40s 😦

[whole ravine]

stupid cool on the model railroad

[strange quiver]

as a mock up though, a long nose SD40 with the extend long hood of the tunnel motor would be really goofy

[strange quiver]

Random thought, but is there a way to detect if the tile a locomotive is in is above the snow line?

Might be cool to be able to stack snow on top, to simulate snow build up and stuff

[finite mountain]

Not sure

[mellow loom]

There’s TERRAIN_TYPE but I don’t think it’s available to vehicles - just current rail type etc which doesn’t have that detail

Maybe there’s some hacky way or something I’ve missed but nothing I can see in NML

[cold scarab]

No I don't think that's possible

[glossy compass]

I think it would be really cool if it was

[strange quiver]

Shame, maybe someone can code it into NML sometime

Would have been a nifty feature

[cold scarab]

Somebody would need to change OpenTTD for that.

[finite mountain]

Honestly, it would be cool if there was a feature like that

Imagine a train going down a snow covered line with snow partices flying all over as its pushing the snow off the tracks

Or being covered with snow after sometime running down the line

[strange quiver]

ah fairo then :/

[strange quiver]

it would be, but I guess it wasn't meant to be 😦

[mellow loom]

Yeah there's a ton of stuff that it would be great to be able to access in GRF/NML

But it's such an old system and has its origins in TTDP so that was more restrictive too, so it's surprising how much it can do really

[strange quiver]

yeah :/

at least we can still do plenty of cool stuff in the first place

also, am I losing my mind, or does NARS/NARS add-on not have a tunnel motor?

I swear they did

[terse sandal]

tunnel motor?

[strange quiver]

the SD40T-2/SD45T-2

[terse sandal]

idk

[strange quiver]

basically an SD40-2 with a longer long hood, and different radiators

[terse sandal]

gn

[strange quiver]

they were for western railroads who needed better cooling in tunnels

[strange quiver]

all good

all 3 SD40 variants >:3

I do plan on doing the SD40F-2 too, but that'll be latter since its so different

I think these look good

I guess its livery time >:3

[turbid bronze]

I like long hoods and I cannot lie

[strange quiver]

:////

forgot that I also had a wide cab on my list >:////

[finite mountain]

What's the third variant?

[strange quiver]

SD40T-2

[strange quiver]

these

[finite mountain]

Oh

I've never seen those locomotives before so I had no idea what it was

[strange quiver]

they're pretty rare iirc

and they only stuck around the SW US

[strange quiver]

too many SD40s 😦

[strange quiver]

hey, how would I nest variants like this?

I went through Fairy's uk set code to see how to do it, but it seems they just use the normal variant structure?

I wanna try and nest all the SD40 variants under one banner for simplicity

[turbid bronze]

You might have more luck asking questions like that in #add-on-development

[strange quiver]

fair point

[turbid bronze]

If you're not already following a forum thread on discord you have no way of knowing something's happening

[strange quiver]

true true

[mellow loom]

IIRC it's literally just making a tree out of it

Top level has no parent variant
Next level has a parent variant in the top level
Last level has a parent variant in the middle level

So you have

5AT.pnml (ITEM_FAI_SL_5AT)

• 5AT_1.pnml (ITEM_FAI_SL_5AT_1)
• • 5AT_1_BRB.pnml (ITEM_FAI_SL_5AT_1_BRB)

The top unit: ITEM_FAI_SL_5AT has no variant group set (but is the parent for the single-nested unit)
The single-nested unit: ITEM_FAI_SL_5AT_1's variant group is set as ITEM_FAI_SL_5AT (and is in turn parent for the double-nested unit)
The double-nested unit: ITEM_FAI_SL_5AT_1_BRB's variant group is set as ITEM_FAI_SL_5AT_1

[mellow loom]

So here, your plan would presumably be to have

SD40 family

• SD40
  -+ An SD40 livery
• SD40A
  -+ An SD40A livery
  -+ Another SD40A livery
• SD40-2
  -+ An SD40-2 livery
  -+ Another SD40-2 livery
• SD40-3
  -+ An SD40-3 livery

The individual livery/unit items (SD40 Southern Pacific) would use the sub-class (SD40-2 or whatever) as the parent. The variant uses the top level "family" item (SD40) as the variant, and the top level SD40 family item would have no parent of course

You can then optionally use the name callback to set the top level item's name differently if different sub-variants are available, but I don't think you'd actually need to do that here? I'm not sure

I'm slightly fuzzy on whether the top level would technically be a separate item in the list or if it would actually be the first item with the name callback mentioned... test it out and see what happens 😂

[strange quiver]

that's kinda what I'm trying to avoid

so here's what it is atm

I effectively want that low nose livery to be in a group under the CC1 loco

like all the others are

because there'll be 25 or so liveries for it, and if its not nested it'll be near impossible to sort through

[mellow loom]

CC1?

[strange quiver]

the top low nose SD40

that's the top level one that everything else is nested under

[mellow loom]

And you want the two Low Nose liveries to be grouped under the top level one?

[strange quiver]

yee, like the High nose/tunnel motor/wide cab ones

[mellow loom]

Mock up what you're trying to do maybe? I can't visualise your words

Just do a janky paint edit, we only need the idea of what you're thinking

[strange quiver]

can do, just gimme a sec

[wind creek]

I think he wants there to be a separate Low Nose variant group, like there are for the High Nose and Tunnel Motor

[strange quiver]

effectively that, yh

[wind creek]

but he can't do that because the Low Nose is the top level group

so there's nothing to put underneath it

or above it

(sorry, your pronouns are he/him right?)

[strange quiver]

yee

[mellow loom]

Ah I see. It's already the top level so you can't easily make it double-nest

I did ask when variants came in whether we could have "dummy" variants, I can't remember if anything ever came of it

[strange quiver]

yeah...

seems fairy was able to do it though

since that's how it works in their UKRS set

but yh, I want it nested because otherwise the other variants get moved down too much

once I do the bulk of the liveries it'll just get out of hand

[mellow loom]

I think Fairy does what I mentioned above, using a dummy "top level" item

[wind creek]

I think that's what you'd have to do

Do all top level vehicles have to be purchasable, though?

[strange quiver]

I think that's what they do too, but I had a look and it seems near identical to what I've been doing

they just have variant group: item

there doesn't seem to be any other special code around it

[mellow loom]

The top level Coronation is CORONATION with no variant group, set to NO_CLIMATE (can't be purchased).... basically a dummy unit using the same purchase sprite etc
https://github.com/FranticFairy/FairyUKSet/blob/main/src/SL/CORONATION.pnml

The second level is CORONATION_0 which uses CORONATION as the variant group
https://github.com/FranticFairy/FairyUKSet/blob/main/src/SL/CORONATION_0.pnml

The third level is CORONATION_0_BLK etc which use CORONATION_0 as the variant group
https://github.com/FranticFairy/FairyUKSet/blob/main/src/SL/CORONATION_0_BLK.pnml

It's three separate items

[red stump]

XUSSR uses this method a lot

[strange quiver]

oh fairy you goober

[red stump]

I kinda like it

[strange quiver]

now I know what they've done

[mellow loom]

Yeah it's how I'm planning to do BRTrains liveries

[wind creek]

oh you can make things not purchasable in the purchase menu

[mellow loom]

Yup, just set it to NO_CLIMATE

Also a good way to remove items from your newGRF without breaking savegames

If you ever remove a unit, don't remove the code and graphics... just set it to NO_CLIMATE and it won't be purchaseable but existing ones will continue to work

[wind creek]

Why not? Couldn't you just bump the minimum compatable version?

[mellow loom]

You can, but it's nice to keep it compatible where possible

Sometimes you can't avoid breaking things, but in a lot of cases you can

Obviously it's more work for the dev, so you can also just bump the compatible version if you don't want to mess around

[strange quiver]

perfect >:3

[mellow loom]

Nice 🙂

I'd probably do the same with the others for visual consistency, personally

[strange quiver]

also it shows the name/purchase sprite of the dummy loco too which is useful

[strange quiver]

problem is most others aren't going to have this many variants

I'm only doing this for locos where it's the same 'family', but there's lots of sub-variants people might want

[mellow loom]

I just mean the other levels - grey out the "header" items where there are "child" items

I think it would look neater

More work for you though

[strange quiver]

yeah, I just don't think it's worth it tbh

[mellow loom]

Your set your call 🙂

[strange quiver]

yee

that's why I'm gonna do all the goofy stuff I want >:3

but yh, today's job: SD40 liveries

and then I'll code up the dual-mode version

which should be fun, since that's something that was proposed during the oil crisis

[strange quiver]

I do wanna test one more thing though...

nvm, I wanted to see if I could show off a few of the locos on the top level purchase sprite, but they're too big :/

[mellow loom]

Do me a favour while you’re testing? See how many levels you can nest

I’ve shut my PC down for the night

[strange quiver]

you just wanna see some dumb spaghetti code 🙂

but sure

[mellow loom]

Make the purchase sprite wider? You should be able to fit on 2 or 3 units IIRC

You can fit on 2 full locos for sure, maybe 3

[strange quiver]

I don't think there's a limit tbh

[strange quiver]

maybe, I'll give it a test later once I've done more liveries

[mellow loom]

Thanks 🙂 that’s gonna come in handy 😂

[strange quiver]

I'm hoping for something more sensible 🙂

[mellow loom]

I’m rather thinking of going the opposite way

Parameters for different purchase list setups…

Andy is gonna hate me

[strange quiver]

I guess that could work

I look forward to seeing what you do with it

[mellow loom]

It’s lunacy but could be fun

I don’t think we have a variant group callback, which is a shame

[strange quiver]

would be cool if we did tho

[strange quiver]

too many SD40s

I might cut some liveries become some are so similar

[turbid bronze]

You mad lad

[strange quiver]

yeah 😦

thats not even all of them

probably for the best I started with something like the SD40, since it's about as complex as it gets

[twilit grove]

Will wagons come with it?

[strange quiver]

theyll be part of a future set

but it's designed to work with NARS/NARS Add-on in the meantime

[vestal minnow]

Is there a way to add livery names alongside the livery?

[strange quiver]

I can do it, but its not something I was planning on including

[strange quiver]

oh btw, after doing the SD40 liveries I've realised some liveries are just too similar to be noticeably different, at least on hood units

so the stripe and end caps/southern pacific liveries are being merged now

cause yeah, it's like two pixels different (the middle two are the end caps/southern pacific livery)

this has the benefit meaning I can free up 2 more livery slots

so either less work for me, so I could do another more specific livery

I might add the CSX grey/blue/yellow livery

also I'm gonna invert the twotone livery, because for some reason in the NewCC GRF the black colours are different?

so if you want a milwaukee road SD40 with it, you're not getting it :/

or, well, it just doesn't look good

[strange quiver]

actually, I think I'll leave it's ID open, because it does look noticeably different on wide cab locomotives

[strange quiver]

turns out the new haven bought a batch of electric locomotives that were effectively small little joes

onto the list they go >:3

[strange quiver]

they based some brazilian units on it, which this one is, but there aren't many photos of the new haven units

[red stump]

I mean you gotta be throwing some sort of EP-5 thing in there too right

[strange quiver]

of course

I've got so many goofy early 20th century electric locomotives on my list

[crystal crag]

C:

[strange quiver]

Gremlin >:/

[crystal crag]

There is a reason I purpose built a program to generate .pnml files for me from a .csv file

I have so many files it would be insane not to

And I may be insane but not THAT insane

[strange quiver]

Im still judging you as such tho :3

[crystal crag]

Of course

I am a certified silly girl, I do weird things

And the more I make people question my sanity, the better

[strange quiver]

I should probably copy your pnml setup sometime tho

[strange quiver]

Oh no 😦

[crystal crag]

:>

You're gonna reach a point where one massive .NML file is too much to dig through. PNML is Inevitable

[strange quiver]

Ive not reached that point with gops tho!

Its 45k lines atm

[crystal crag]

You, too, have some insanity within you

But yes. You've figured out how I do nesting, it's funky

I don't remember if I also optimized my sprites for it or not yet

I know that at least at one point, CORONATION and CORONATION_0 used identical but separate .png files for their sprites

[turbid bronze]

45k lines monolithic nml file
yeah I'm sorry not sorry but you're insane.

[glossy compass]

I hope you at least have syntax highlighting

[strange quiver]

Now thats just strange

[strange quiver]

Anyone who draws as much as I do is insane

[strange quiver]

Oh no 😦

[turbid bronze]

well, also yes

[strange quiver]

What if I don't? 😦

[glossy compass]

💀

[turbid bronze]

syntax highlighting I can take or leave

[strange quiver]

I do btw

[turbid bronze]

but modular projects using pnml to at least break up files is basically mandatory for me

[strange quiver]

Yeah, I should probably use it at some point

[turbid bronze]

I don't do anything fancy with it, just break the project into smaller chunks. I've done ID mapping before with variables in NABS but that was nfo

[strange quiver]

Fair fair

Nfo is something I never wanna touch jfc

[strange quiver]

Random grf idea: Export pack

Locomotives that are common in different parts of the world as exports

Like the ones that EMD and GE sell to places in africa and asia

Mayne configure them as narrow and broad gauge for fun

Could be a good way to get a bunch of sprites for uncommon countries all done in a big batch

[signal gate]

Export Horse

[strange quiver]

yeah :3

iron horse, but only the goofy narrow gauge stuff

although I'd probably include broad and standard gauge stuff too

are there any generic track sets with broad gauge anyway? I don't recall seeing any tbh

[red stump]

Not reallly? There's xUSSR and FRISS

but FRISS is unfinished

[strange quiver]

fairo then

Maybe if I ever do this set, I'll have to include its own track set, like in iron horse

[glossy compass]

Friss is considered standard for some reason so the only dedicated set I know is xussr even if v4 trains has one or two broad tracks anf I think some Spanish det does too

[terse sandal]

Or project structure in breadcrumbs ontop, that also works for me sometimes

While we're still just a bit on the topic: what text editors do you guys use?

[frosty sand]

VSCode for NewGRF stuff, full Visual Studio for OpenTTD development

[terse sandal]

I personally have found CLion particularly convenient for C&C++ development, although I lack much experience with VS to provide fair comparison. VSCode is pretty good for something not that big, especially NML for NewGRFs

I really should finish my language server

It would be so awesome

[mellow loom]

Visual Studio for C# and C, VSCode for everything else especially newGRF and React/React Native tinkering. VSCode server is great for remote development too

[turbid bronze]

Notepad, vs code. I've recently stopped using VS for jgrpp development and been using vscode but tbh I might actually swap back.

[cold scarab]

Somebody created an nml ide i think

[mellow loom]

There's an NML highlighter/extension for VSCode, never heard of a specific IDE for NML

There might be one that I've missed though

[cold scarab]

https://github.com/DonaldDuck313/NMLCreator

[mellow loom]

... fair enough 😂

[strange quiver]

that's what I used before I switched to my current set up

it works, it just struggles with anything that gets over 3k lines or so

also it doesn't support breaking sets up

but it's good for testing and stuff

[strange quiver]

spent today doing job applications, but also worked more on the SD40s

I've worked the final livery list down to this

It should be a pretty good variety, and it'll allow the player to pick whatever livery they want I guess?

I'll do the other SD40s and then post it here

here we go

lmk if you guys have any feedback

I'm trying to make it a representative selection, so ideally you guys should be able to make any railroad within reason

now I'm gonna be a goober and code the dual-mode SD40

[strange quiver]

and now with dual-mode SD40s :3

Dual-mode SD40s are so goofy

[frosty sand]

On top of the cab seems like an odd place for the pantograph

[strange quiver]

that, and using a diamond pantograph is also strange

but that's what the FRA proposed as a conversion for SD40s

[frosty sand]

Huh. Wild

[strange quiver]

yeah

all the same designs from that era show single arm pantographs mounted behind the cab

maybe for the SD40 that was just easier?

[frosty sand]

Maybe no room on the roof on the SD40

[strange quiver]

do you mean behind it?

but maybe

either way, this at least gives me the template for doing dual-mode stuff >:)

[soft stump]

I barely know anything about US locomotives but this looks so goofy.

[vestal minnow]

How did your interview the other day go?

[red stump]

GM6C was similar

and the gm10b

what they took from you etc. etc.

[signal gate]

where did you find this? 🙂

[strange quiver]

very good, just waiting for a call back >:3

[strange quiver]

yeah... I need to draw tho 😦

[strange quiver]

a bunch of old FRA documents

https://railroads.dot.gov/sites/fra.dot.gov/files/fra_net/15203/PB81191314[1].pdf

https://railroads.dot.gov/sites/fra.dot.gov/files/fra_net/16071/1981_DUAL - MODE LOCOMOTIVE SYSTEMS ENGINEERING VOL(2).PDF

https://railroads.dot.gov/sites/fra.dot.gov/files/fra_net/14990/DOT-FRA-ORD-78-78-IV-1979_Wayside Energy Storage Study-volume IV Dual Mode Locomotive.pdf

https://railroads.dot.gov/sites/fra.dot.gov/files/fra_net/14754/701_ord7878-IV_Wayside_Energy_Storage_Study_Volume_IV.pdf

they're all very technichal, and mostly go over feasability of retrofitting existing locomotves

but they're still cool :3

(also this is the level of research I put into my sets because I am a nerd)

[signal gate]

🙂

[strange quiver]

there's a reason I say that I need to be stopped 😦

[turbid bronze]

Don’t worry if you get a job it’ll slow down real quick 🤣

[strange quiver]

what if I got a job making openttd sprites?

what about then? 😦

[dim pulsar]

OpenTTD related stuff could not profit… just as most open source projects

[strange quiver]

I've gotta convince the Australian government to subsidise me drawing my goofy trains

[twilit grove]

Where are the box cars from

[strange quiver]

just normal NARS

they're the Hi-Cubes

[twilit grove]

Ah thanks

[strange quiver]

nw

[strange quiver]

decided that I'd do the FL9 today, and noticed that a lot of photos of them in service seemed recent

turns out their last run was in 2009 💀

[frosty sand]

Yep, although they were diesel only by then

[strange quiver]

I thought they would have been out of service by the late 80s or something

[strange quiver]

still!

[frosty sand]

They were dual-mode on Amtrak until the end, in 1996!

[strange quiver]

that's still a lot later than expected!

[frosty sand]

There are a lot of them left in service at tourist railroads, too

[strange quiver]

I'm not surprised

when a loco gets that old in service, you tend to see a few preserved

the SMR 10 class were around from 1914 until 1987 and thankfully all were preserved 😎

[frosty sand]

Yeah, and they came directly out of service into preservation, no sitting in a yard rusting for decades in between

[strange quiver]

very good :3

[frosty sand]

They’re good engines, I’ve worked with them. Hard to switch with though because they still have passenger gearing, so going slow is hard — or so my engineer complained to me

[strange quiver]

is your personal experience why you asked for an FL9 a bit ago?

but fair, I could also imagine it'd just be their age

they still have 567s in them after all

[frosty sand]

Personal experience yes, but it’s been my favorite locomotive pretty much forever. I think I had an FL9 poster as a kid.

Something about the asymmetrical wheelbase, the F unit shape, and the dual-mode capabilities into Grand Central just scratch my autism the perfect way 😛

[strange quiver]

fair enough, I won't judge 🙂

It's not like I'm known for going feral for goofy locomotives

[frosty sand]

This Discord is the right place for train-related special interests 😄

[strange quiver]

true >:)

[strange quiver]

oh btw, did the power rating of the FL9s change when they were on third rail?

[signal gate]

internet seems to not know

[strange quiver]

I'm gonna assume they're the same

[strange quiver]

FL9s :3

kinda cursed seeing an F unit if Phase V, but it kinda goes hard too

[signal gate]

These US trains need more British Rail liveries 😛

[strange quiver]

Conrail saw what BR was doing and decided to copy them

'it's my livery now'

also the FL9 is the first where I've used my reserve IDs

so I have around 10 IDs reserved for very specific liveries that locomotives wore

so if an engine in the loco pack has a very specific livery that it wore that was iconic, and isn't in the existing livery list, they'll go here :3

[frosty sand]

Yes, they were extremely weak. I will consult my FL9 book and see if I can find a number

[strange quiver]

thanks

hopefully its not lower than their power on diesel 😦

[frosty sand]

I won’t have my book until later this week, but it’s either lower than diesel or maybe just more expensive — I know they only used third-rail in the tunnel and ran diesel in open air, even on track with third rail.

[signal gate]

foamer forum chat suggested that the 3rd rail gear was fairly unreliable and not much used

[frosty sand]

Yes, I’ve heard the dual-mode capability was mostly political

Metro-North leased some diesel-only E units during a loco shortage that they ran into Grand Central, not even pretending to care

[strange quiver]

strange, I'll just leave them at 1750 for now

[strange quiver]

It was the 80s, cancer wasn't real then 🙂

terrible thought, but it's 8pm, and I kinda have energy to draw, and I've got the bulldog nose drawn