#Increase Maximum Stats and Joker Slots

154 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

green sky
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Once you reach level 40 you max out the number of upgrade slots, not to mention certain stats like speed, jump height, and cooldown reduction are all maxed out despite not being that much of an increase (cooldown reduction only goes to +12%). I feel like you should keep earning upgrade slots to at least 30 or 40 points, and I think that certain stats like Speed and Cooldown Reduction should definetly get their maximum caps increased to at least +50%.

Same with Joker Slots. Once you reach level 50 you've maxed out the number of Joker Slots, but because good cards costs 4-5 slots, it means that you can only really have a maximum of 3 cards. Personally I don't feel like that is nearly enough to make any interesting joker combos or builds that synergize with eachother. I'd want to see an increase of the maximum Joker Slots to at least 20. This would allow you to have 4 good cards in your build.

I'm also bummed that certain cards like Giant and Dwarf are unpurchasable and can only be found in the game. I feel like every single Joker that exist should be purchasable in the Joker shop or using the gamba machine.

The complete pause on progression at a certain point makes game, that was initially really fun, feel way less rewarding. I do understand that restrictions makes each build more unique, but I don't feel like the current maximum allows nearly enough of a high power-level to make truly fun builds. If the game needs more harder difficulties to allow for this, then just add it. That should not be a reason to severely cripple progression and hinder truly unique builds.

wheat zephyr
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The next update is going to be fixing alot of the gripes you have, however it will not be increasing the stat points or joker slots above the current level only increasing xp along with increasing the levels required for said joker slots making it the same grind but with different numbers

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I do agree entirely that there should be at least a few more joker slots even if it takes more prestige to unlock

green sky
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I feel like that would solve only a fraction of my gripes, and in the wrong way. I like the current speed of progression and making it slower will just make it awful for new players.

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But my main complaint is still that the maximum stats and jokers you can have is much too low and increasing it would solve both problems, being; continued progression past level 40/50 and more interesting builds with more slots.

tight tendon
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I would love more joker slots, but maybe having dwarf and giant would be too strong to be able to build with them.

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Each of those is 3-4 Jokers in one

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But yea more reason to keep grinding the character would be great, after prestiging several times theres no reason to keep doing so

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other than funny number go up yayy

wheat zephyr
green sky
wheat zephyr
drifting quail
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i still agree on the spell cooldown tho, ngl, it can at least be 1% better per point, ,if it is too op to have like 30 % then make the cap smaller as well, but right now it feels useless, even in an mage build tbh

green sky
green sky
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visual cipher
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is your cat watching?

green sky
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Yes, my cat was apparently on the keyboard during the night

severe pier
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You get more slots and upgrades via prestige

green sky
# severe pier You get more slots and upgrades via prestige

Prestige allows it to go to 26, which is rather crazy when you factor in that you have to be level 600 to reach 6 extra upgrade slots ....
That said, they also need to increase the cap of the different stats. There is no reason CR should stop at 12%, speed at 25% etc.

severe pier
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Currently, there's not enough difficulty that uncapping stat increases is balanced.

green sky
eternal echo
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The upgrades currently feel fine to me, with the exception of spell CDR. 12% is barely noticeable and feels bad at 2% per point, especially being multiplicative with other sources of spell CDR. If it were additive it would feel okay. But I also feel like with three spell slots and another source of CDR, you can already cast very quickly.

green sky
eternal echo
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Why should they continue scaling to at least twice those numbers? You can't just keep throwing on more stats, at a certain point you run into actual gameplay limitations

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Like, a player with +80% passive movespeed and jump height will simply never be in range of more than half the enemies in the game, before even considering jokers. That isn't reasonable

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I don't think there's anything wrong with a longer tail on progression, but it has to be done in a way that makes sense

green sky
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Jump Height I agree, it probably doesn't need to go higher. But as for the others, if someone told me when I started playing that, "you know that maximum health you can achieve is +30%", I would probably be completely baffled. In other games you can at least double your health from the starting power-level as a level 1 newbie.

Like, a player with +80% passive movespeed and jump height will simply never be in range of more than half the enemies in the game, before even considering jokers. That isn't reasonable

This is already the case since the current mobility meta allows you to soar through the sky at mach speed. Base +100% move speed sounds pretty tame in comparison to the spells and jokers that already exist. That said, it is NPC enemies we are fighting. None of the NPC mobs will become saddened because you can run laps around them. Will it potentially result in too easy gameplay, probably, but I would rather have that issue than the current very limited builds. The difficulty issue is easy to solve and I think it would definetly be worth it if it ment that builds could be more complex and feature more synergizing cards and stats.

eternal echo
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I can't think of any other horde shooters like this where the kind of stat increases you're talking about are possible

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In fact FFW is already far ahead of helldivers and deeprock in this capacity, to name two examples

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And "it's just PvE" isn't a good excuse for the difficulty being completely trivial. I think you'd actually find people vastly prefer having a harder game that's somewhat limited than an unrestricted game with no difficulty. Although obviously it's easy to go too far in that direction

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Regardless, I don't think bigger upgrades and more joker slots actually does much for build diversity. The game's build crafting is so shallow that it will mostly just be power creep. What you really need for better build diversity is more jokers in general, but with weaker effects but more synergies

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Like, taking two west wizards, and a joker than increases health but decreases gun damage, for example

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If tradeoffs like that were more common and more varied, more joker slots would make sense

brave river
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nzer your point is correct. but more jokers will make the game feel even more limited. Because you will have so many options but so little slots.
What needs to happen is:

  • More guns / utility
  • More elements
  • Way too many jokers (and some be element specific, not only CD)
  • Way more joker slots
  • Be able to max out every character and weapon stat
    This will make the game extremely fun to build, but it will also make the current game too easy. So you just increase the difficulty
oak kettle
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wait you say fun to build, but then max out every character and weapon stat? The whole idea of "builds" in game is having to pick and choose strength and weakness.

eternal echo
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Yeah, being able to max out every stat is the opposite of build diversity

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And you can't "just increase the difficulty" past a certain point. You can't infinitely add more enemies, or make them infinitely faster, etc., because the gameplay becomes nonsensical

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This is what I mean. You want builds to involve a larger number of jokers with more tradeoffs and tensions, but a similar overall power level

green sky
eternal echo
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Which also increases the progression tail, because you'll have to spend more time grinding for the jokers and unlocking the additional slots

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Right, but I think it already hits that pretty well. I don't think you can push the game too much farther before it stops being fun and starts being ridiculous

green sky
brave river
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maxing out your stats has nothing to do with jokers. maxing out means you are in the endgame, your character is as good as it gets. then you start building.
if your jokers have tradeoffs and synergies, that are clearer, not just "10% more speed" + "more speed = more damage".
and jokers with element specific traits

and yes you can increase the difficulty past a certain point. its not more enemies, its harder enemies, less revives, less defences (in this case that is hp), less player damage.
or
boss rushes
or
dungeons / raids / puzzle solving while being rushed by enemies
or
any combination of the above

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the difficutly increase is how not how many enemies there are or how much time it takes to kill them. difficulty is testing your skill limit

green sky
eternal echo
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Maxing out your stats directly relates to jokers, in that the stats can counteract the tradeoffs on the jokers. You shouldn't be able to max out everything, that serves no purpose besides creating an artificial grind

eternal echo
brave river
# eternal echo Maxing out your stats directly relates to jokers, in that the stats can countera...

unless there are tradeoffs, right now there are some jokers like that, but only tradeoffs i remember is less hp, less gravity (?) and losing ammo.
that is not even remotely close to the possibilities. you can add 1000% damage and remove the ability of the player to jump or reduce his speed by 75%. this is just an exaggerated example, but its were maxing out your stats provides grind, endgame and gives the ability to both skilled and not skilled players to play at a higher difficulty. One will take the 1000% damage and half his speed, the other will take something with much less benefit and much less or zero drawback. Both can do a boss rush and succeed.
right now i feel handicapped in the game. I am stopped from reaching my full potential

green sky
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Here I made a quick mockup in paint.
Just doubling all of the maximum capacities and maximum upgrade slots still doesn't even look that crazy.
We have +60% health, +24% cooldown reduction, +46% speed. Like those numbers doesn't seem that outlandish.

Other games (and I will pick a PvP game for this which makes FFW seem even more miniscule, stat wise) you have Wrecking Ball in Overwatch.
He has base health of 600, which is +300% of a regular hero. His base movement speed is +100% faster than other heroes. Using his abilities allows him to go up to +300% in movement speed. And even with all those crazy stats, he is still balanced within a PvP game where other players with significantly less base stats are still viable and balanced.

So in Far Far West, which is not a PvP game, people suddenly think that it's broken to increase ones health by 60% or speed by 50% against NPC bots that wont even care.
Like I thought this was the reason people like to play PvE games such as Far Far West. To allow the player to keep on scaling and gaining in power because it is not as important that it feels fair to play against for the NPC mobs. The only issue that can occur is that the game becomes too easy, but that's why we'd need more harder difficulties aswell.

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severe pier
fierce flicker
severe pier
# fierce flicker So add more of a challenge?

That becomes harder and harder as player power continues to scale. It's seriously difficult to keep things challenging if players get cracked out while also increasing their baseline input and decision-making skills infinitely. PvE games suffer even more heavily from playerbase skill creep than PvP, because in PvP the highly skilled players are pitted against each other, creating a more natural balance.

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Darktide's highest difficulties, for instance, have functionally been solved with optimized kits and movement. The top level players kind of optimized the fun out of the game by figuring out how to blitz the whole map nigh untouchably

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Killing Floor 2, Payday, and similar ended up having extensive mods entirely expanding and increasing their difficulties once the playerbase got good.

fierce flicker
severe pier
fierce flicker
# severe pier The only thing that scales infinitely is player skill.

Sure, so increase the power-level to a higher maximum than currently, and keep adding more and more difficult difficulties. According to you, player skill will always be an issue and require higher and higher difficulties. So this is an issue even without an increased power-level.

severe pier
fierce flicker
severe pier
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Buffing speed is buffing speedster, which is already an incredibly good joker and, second and more importantly, buffing player immunity to consequences. Jump height does the same thing. Leaping around at Mach 5 is already the way to trivialize a lot of the difficulty, which is why the deadeyes exist at all and have lockon

fierce flicker
severe pier
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Also, again, speed is immunity in FFW

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Which, yes, is a big part of the casual spellslinging cowboy fun. It just doesn't need to be pushed further.

shut moon
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I just want beefy tank builds with no movement to be viable for my friends that like that sort of thing

fierce flicker
fierce flicker
severe pier
fierce flicker
visual cipher
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i feel like designing enemies capable of keeping up with super sonic builds would be incredibly punishing to people who don't build for speed?

brave river
# severe pier Yeah, the description is unclear. It's been figured out by players here in the D...

balance is not the issue or the goal in pve games.
in pve games you want the player to be unbalanced, or he is not having fun. unless the game is DS-like which then the point is to get walked by enemies, different story. But even then, the endgame is a broken build which still needs you to be near perfect to beat the final bosses.
Stats shouldn't be infinitely upgradable, cant reach 500% damage with stats, because then you cant make endgame interesting but also hard enough, you are forced to have a million hp enemy who needs 2 business days to die, nothing fun about it.
They should all have a cap of lets say 100% or whatever they have now (devs chose the current limits for a reason), just be able to max them all out.
Endgame difficulty / repetitiveness in such games is always the issue. In destiny 2 (i do have 1k hours and its a pretty similar game) the problem is the endgame, nothing is interesting enough except dungeons and raids, because you have unlocked everything, tried everything, done the same "stand in a zone" mission a thousand times, only thing changing is the color of the enemies.
Dungeons (in their hardest difficulty) are interesting because anything will oneshot you, even if you have the most min-maxed character, so you have to be near perfect (again, difficulty is reaching the player's limit, not more enemies or enemies with infinite hp). And raids can be extremely interesting with all the puzzle solving, combined with fighting and co-op with your friends. But it has the drawback that you need like 8 hours and a guide to do a raid first time, and it's 6 people, total chaos. That's why when they released pantheon (raid boss rush) for a while, everyone was playing it and wanting it back. The only thing that kept destiny 2 alive for so long is the story.

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the raid chaos is fun btw

severe pier
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"balance is not the issue or the goal in pve games." Where, exactly, do you think challenge comes from, then? Balancing a game is creating the challenge. I think you're confusing a PvE game's balance with the way PvP does balance. These are 2 completely different design spaces. If a PvE game has too many "Solve this for me" buttons/tools, it's just Power Fantasy Simulator, like a bad anime.

"in pve games you want the player to be unbalanced, or he is not having fun" I play in multiple PvE communities where there are bunch of weapon restrictions and enemy buffs specifically to enhance the challenge, both in the skill floor and the skill ceiling. This also creates a point to pushing your personal skill ceiling. Yes, a PvE player should be able to slaughter hordes of enemies, that's the point. Again, you're conflating PvE balance with PvP.

brave river
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Being challenged is not balanced. You have 130hp and do 50damage per shot (depending on weapon), with abilities and jokers. And the enemies just damage you, and some of them have 50hp. That's the opposite of balance.

That's not the point though.
The point is that I can be challenged, but also have my stats maxed. If I can reach 100%, damage, speed, health, or whatever else and have 5 or 10 jokers, then I'll be pretty strong and the current game has no point of existence. But if you increase the difficulty, by making most enemies do 100 damage. Or by making them able to stun you, reduce your vision or anything else. And also adding negative modifiers, either in the difficulty level itself (eg. For the new "God" difficulty, you have 25% less gravity and - 20% total damage), or negative joker modifiers for very strong jokers, eg. +250% damage but -75% speed (random numbers), then enemies will not have a million hp, they will not be annoying to deal with, but now the game is challenging, because you can die from any mistake big enough

severe pier
brave river
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So your problem is with having infinite mobility and nothing else? There will be limits. The objection is to the current, very low, limits to some stats. And also the fact that I have to choose between 12% cool down reduction or 40% damage. Who is gonna go for the 12%? Nobody, it's not enough to take over damage and it's not good enough to make a spell build

shut moon
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you two are speaking in different languages right now and I think it's causing some friction/disconnect.

@brave river from what I understand is speaking of balance as symmetry, pointing to the fact the difference in stats between the players in enemies is not symmetrical (aka balanced), and that's a good thing. PvE games don't need to care about balance in this way because the enemies aren't controlled by players and therefor don't need to be/shouldn't be on a level playing field in a numerical sense with the player.

@severe pier I think is speaking of balance as fair challenge, which is a more traditional definition in PvE game design. Balancing the difficulty with the fun: players want to have a good time and feel capable without feeling like they're just stomping on every "challenge" they're presented.

severe pier
severe pier
brave river
# shut moon you two are speaking in different languages right now and I think it's causing s...

That is true but I'm not doing it here because I realized that not what this thread is for, it's for devs to see feedback from a player, not figuring out what balance is.
Talking about balance ruins makes this thread hard to read, so I stopped xD
But I'm happy to discuss all these somewhere else so this thread stays as clean as possible. Game design and balance is what interests me, so happy to talk :)

eternal echo
brave river
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And the easy way (Stat sponge) is just the "lazy" way of doing it.

eternal echo
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None of those ways are "easy," is my point. They're major development efforts

severe pier
eternal echo
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Or they're in the vein of "any mistake means instant death," which isn't terribly fun either

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This is a problem I've seen a lot of games run into, where the stat scaling gets so high that eventually you're one shotting all the enemies, and the only way for the game to remain challenging is for all of them to also one shot you. That kind of thing is fine for an optional challenge difficulty, but it's not okay for it to be required just to prevent the difficulty from being trivial

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Again, you can't just throw more stats in and say "well we'll just add a difficulty to compensate." There are certain numeric ranges outside of which the mechanics stop functioning sanely

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That doesn't mean there isn't some room for increase, especially if the build crafting is made deeper with more stat tensions

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But it has to be well thought out, not just doubling or tripling everything across the board

marble dust
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so the poster just wants a larger spectrum of both stats and difficulty ? seems kind of pointless

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i like increasing joker slots because who doesn’t love build variety

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but jokers seem to be the main source of strength in this game

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just slapping on more raw stats seems like a bandaid fix to what isn’t even a real problem

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50% cdr is absolutely absurd tho, considering battlemage which gives 1% current cdr per kill is one of the most powerful jokers in the game

severe pier
swift comet
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Lol this whole argument isn't even worth talking about, everyone has different opinions and they are mostly bad, balancing a game is impossible and everyones definition to it is amere suggestion, being strong is one thing but having something where you require no effort to go through the hardest difficulty its straight nuts

fierce flicker
shut moon
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"easy" is the key word

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I think the spell cdr stat needs a buff and I think more joker slots would be a better way of increasing player power than more stat increases

severe pier
# fierce flicker > The only "easy" way to increase difficulty is to make enemies stat sponges, w...

"More powerful enemies" eventually scales up into stat sponge one-hit megatanks, no matter what you do.
"More lethal, accurate, or any of the sorts" eventually scales up into one-hit machines.

Or, you eventually scale into MMO territory where the 10k HP player is fighting a 500k HP boss while harassed by 800 HP grunts and none of the orders of magnitude mean anything anymore. As nzer said, "There are certain numeric ranges outside of which the mechanics stop functioning sanely"

This is why you have to not go bonkers with the baseline math, especially in your early balancing.

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PvE balance is hard, especially when up against the infinite capacity of players to get freaking cracked at your systems & animations

eternal echo
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I want to add also that I'm not trying to just poo-poo ideas here. Feedback is feedback. But IMO starting from "let's increase player stats" and working out from there into upping difficulty is backwards. You want to start with "let's design another difficulty level" and then consider giving players more stats to handle it, if necessary. Or you want to start from "let's add more long term progression" and then try to figure out good ways to do so, which may or may not be stat increases or joker slots

severe pier
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Example: Killing Floor 2 Controlled Difficulty mod.
In baseline KF2, you might see 80-100 of the hardest enemies when you're on the highest difficulty across 10 waves. The wave setup I designed that is widely played at a high level has 128 just in the final wave of 411 enemies. This was precisely tuned to the community's highest skll levels, and now they're cruising through it on a lot of maps. People are insane

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(And this community plays with heavily restricted weapon sets that ban all the power weapons and at around double the baseline game's enemy density, plus the subset of people I made it for play on modded enemies that are much harder than their baseline versions due to speed and damage changes)

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People, me included, will practice for dozens of hours just to perfectly nail a single predictable animation basically every time.

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I'm not saying this will happen with FFW or anything, but it's just a really good example of how crazy PvE skill ceilings can go

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And all of that is without changing any of the baseline weapon damage or player health, and KF2 is already a well-balanced game in its unmodded form.

fierce flicker
# eternal echo I want to add also that I'm not trying to just poo-poo ideas here. Feedback is f...

That is not backwards at all. What I want is more complex builds with more stat points and more jokers. This is to fundamentally make the game more fun.

They ones of you that are opposed say that the game is already too easy. I personally don't find the game that easy. I find the game very difficult on Nightmare. If that's because my build is bad or that I'm bad, idk, but I do feel like my build didn't even get close to what I want it to be.

But to solve the issue that you describe with balancing, my proposal is more harder difficulties. Not that it's needed for me personally right now, but since it seems so for you, I gave the suggestion to increase difficulty. And in my book, the game will be 100 times more fun with more scaling, so I guess more increased difficulties would be required to make this a reality.

swift comet
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Game just released 🤝

severe pier
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I also still find the game difficult on Nightmare. I've only had time to drop a few dozen hours in and I deliberately don't play maximum mobility builds because skipping engaging with the game systems to achieve Mach 5 untouchability isn't fun. I just also watch people beat Nightmare, have thousands of hours of experience in getting unreasonably good at PvE games, and have a lot of experience with seeing players get cracked at anything that makes them immune to consequences, whether that is "Click the head 6-9 times per second" or "Just don't be there, lol."

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I agree there's a lot of space for jokers with more tradeoffs

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I'm just very skeptical of baseline stat enhancements after experiencing what we did to KF2 without them and seeing what already happens with high mobility and precision violence in FFW and Darktide.

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Some powerful jokers in the future may need to lock out baseline stat pips or something like that.

eternal echo
# fierce flicker That is not backwards at all. What I want is more complex builds with more stat ...

But this is what I mean. You're not asking for stat increases and more joker slots. You just think those will solve what you're actually asking for, which is more build complexity. Again, starting with "let's double or triple maximum stat upgrades" and justifying it with "because it will increase build complexity" is backwards. The reality, IMO, is that increasing stat caps and adding more joker slots will not increase build complexity currently, because there are too few stats and too few jokers and too few synergies and tensions between things

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And the game only just released in early access. So... let's maybe wait for at least more jokers before we talk about stat caps and joker slots

fierce flicker
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The reality, IMO, is that increasing stat caps and adding more joker slots will not increase build complexity currently, because there are too few stats and too few jokers and too few synergies and tensions between things

I mean the current caps doesn't allow for much specialised builds. Like Ivy said, "I just want beefy tank builds with no movement". That is currently not possible. Health stat caps out at 30%, so even if you wanted to, it is currently impossible. Same for me, I wanted to create a CR and movement Speed build, but the current maximum values and joker limits doesn't allow me to be where I want it to be.

If you increase the maximum stat caps by double, and only increase upgrade slots to say 30 instead of 20, it would force you to chose what to spec your points into rather than being able to choose everything, essentially leading to more interesting builds. Currently you can max out 3 or 4 categories without thinking much about what you want to specialise in.

Sure more different jokers might help, but personally I feel like the current cap already forces you to choose between too many jokers while you can't equip nearly enough of them to make any interesting builds.

eternal echo
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I'm curious what interesting builds you think would be enabled by more stats points and joker slots, because I don't really see any. Like, even if the health cap were higher, that's not enough to make an actual tank build. And adding battlemage to a double glass cannon second wind build isn't "build diversity," because there's no synergy there. It's just power creep

fierce flicker
eternal echo
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Erm... I don't agree at all. "I want to equip all the jokers please" isn't meaningful feedback

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I will say, being able to max out every hero upgrade except ammo box isn't great. I would definitely be open to higher caps with the same number of total upgrade points, so that you can actually specialize. But not doubling the caps and the points as was originally suggested

severe pier
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I also would be sad when increases in joker slots incentivize the devs to decrease the roguelike element of having lots of jokers drop on the map. You can beat Nightmare with the baseline builds now, even before picking anything up on the map. The roguelike map drops can get busted with decent RNG and some persistence.

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The variety adds so much to the game.

oak kettle
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The thing with these kinds of discussions is that both sides aren't in a stance to be swayed; so you either endlessly debate or agree to disagree.

severe pier
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I fundamentally agree with "I want more build complexity," which is the underlying desire. The current proposed solution just doesn't work.

oak kettle
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Oh for sure, I'm against ideas the run counter to the deliberate limited slots

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The problem is one, some, or all reasons:

  1. People think game would be more fun
  2. Think PvE = no limit
  3. They like idea of the game than game itself
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Roguelikes make sense you eventually become god player because no or little customization at start, over time difficulty, random items, permadeath.

  • Replayability comes from the inability to choose what you want at the start, and having to pick the pieces as you go

FFW being not a roguelike, you can choose various items and upgrades from start. Hence, allowing to let yourself be a nigh a god character from the get go, is frankly terribly regarding replayability, build diversity, and teamplay aspect.

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But I can say all that and more, but it doesn't matter when the people reading aren't really of the mind to be persuaded. It's just say what they want, and see where things end up.

eternal echo
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That's a fair point. I'm pretty sure I at least can be persuaded by a sound enough argument, and I do think "it would be more fun" can be enough justification for something. But ultimately a lot of this just comes down to taste

severe pier
eternal echo
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The roguelike elements add an interesting wrinkle. In FFW they're unfortunately pretty underdeveloped, which I think makes them not very fun. Like, I can't really build around 15 random jokers out of a hundred when I have no way to control which ones they are

oak kettle
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Roguelikes you have 0 control of items you find. That's kinda the enjoyment and replayability of them. If you're lucky, you get A, B, C and now you've got build that procs X, Y, Z. Or you don't get all that, and you have a hybrid of items

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Obviously of course, FFw isn't a Roguelike, just wanting to compare

eternal echo
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They don't though. Almost every modern roguelike gives you a very calculated amount of agency over what you find, whether through choices, swaps, shops, etc.

oak kettle
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But thinking about it conceptually: Helldivers 2 and DRG, you don't get free upgrades during mission (uhh I think, been a while). Having them in first place is kinda a bonus.

oak kettle
eternal echo
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Trader is every mission. Not sure about the refiner

oak kettle
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I think end of the day, unless devs intent is to refine (lol) the in-mission Jokers: they are very Roguelite as opposed to roguelike, not for expanding on your build but sometimes necessary upgrades to sustain yourself and defeat boss, especially higher difficulty

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Like how in MOBAS you gotta farm in between objectives to make your character stronger before you can continue the fight

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All boils down to what devs want, what they made, and what is facilitated (what the players do) ⛄

severe pier
eternal echo
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True, yeah

oak kettle
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Ill usually say "roguelike elements" to keep things simple

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Cause both like and lite share roguelike elements, it depends on which ones and levels of impact

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Anyhow, like I said before, I said my piece here prior to this discussion; so ciao nice chat

fierce flicker
flint pasture
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I will not post a hundred messages here because I already had the exact same argument with Jabbathefrukt in another tread.
I’m firmly in the camp of DrahsOcisliven, nzer and EtherealDoom on this debate.

At the moment the general consensus seems to be that FFW is not an extremely hard game. Not saying that nightmare is easy, just that’s it’s not that hard for the game current highest difficulty.

I also think with the current limit of joker slot (14-16) you can already make quite a few different looking builds with meaningful choice.
For once I would like the other side to actually wright what interesting builds they can do with 24 jocker slot that is not just take every strongest joker.
Like said before, the consensus seems to be that the game is on the easier side for now. So it seems counterproductive for the first move going forward to massively buff the player.

As other said the game is also easier to balance when the accessible powerlevel of the player is controlled. Because if it goes too far the game will have to create more and more unfair mechanics to counteract the player.

I am not strictly against raising some caps. We could debate moving 14-16 to 16-18, but it’s in my opinion once again not necessary at the moment.
I would also like people on the other side of the argument to actually wright for once what they want. Not just saying more jocker slot but what the actual number of slot would be perfect for them. It is 20, 24, 30, 100?

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On the side of stats I actually have multiple changes that I would like to see implemented.
My first point is that there already less choice to be made on the stat repartition than on jokers because we can fill too much of what’s available with 20 points. Almost every builds will have +30% health and +24% speed with probably -12% cooldown reduction.

I have 2 propositions that can be combined to answer this problem. With both these proposition we stay at the current maximum of 20-26 points total to distribute.

  • Add more category of stats. For example horse speed (+6% per point) or heath regen (0,1 per point).
  • Uncap the limit of 6 max points for most stat. For example you could put 20 points in health for a total of +100% health but nothing else.

3558 out (or maybe not, we’ll see).

visual cipher
naive nacelle
naive nacelle
hard nebula
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Caught so many messages

Lots of point of views and many are fair in their own way 🙂 What I'll say is that at the moment, the game is pretty easy for people that have played enough time to reach the current progression cap. If we were to raise that cap without raising the difficulty, we would lose any sense of challenge we currently have, making it very uninteresting.

As you may have seen with our current difficulties, our goal is not to make difficulty harder with the simple way of making enemies bullet sponges, because that is uninteresting. Making them one shot you is also uninteresting. What we want to do is add more unique enemies with unique mechanics, as well as add mechanics to already existing enemies in higher difficulties. Of course, this would go along with more high risk/high rewards systems, modifiers or anything of the sort.

We are still very early in Early Access (2 weeks folks Despair) and we put our focus on making the main loop of the game interesting for everyone, including the very casual gamers. That means all systems related to late-game progress are not in the game for the moment. But it will come!

Just be mindful that adjusting player progression has an impact on ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING on the game, so this work is not simple. To modify it, we need to add upon jokers, weapons, spells, enemies, bosses, exploration events, difficulty etc... while making sure that what's currently in the game still works well with everything. This is fine, we'll do it, but it takes time o7