programmers-off-topic

[rain apex]

QuakeC...

[ivory shadow]

-# Honestly though porting Roslyn is a lot of thought.

[dusty pollen]

Script, Java

[rain apex]

I am a little sus at wikipedia listing all the *ython separately

[safe dragon]

I'm struggling to think of languages that start with a K

[ivory shadow]

Kotlin

[cinder karma]

Kython

[safe dragon]

Kotlin's not the worst to end up with

[ivory shadow]

Better than Java in many ways. But I still just... don't like it.

[devout vault]

Wow, that sounds absolutely boring... wait

[ivory shadow]

Something about the syntax doesn't click with me.

[safe dragon]

there's surprisingly few programming languages starting with a K

but thankfully you will still have the option of using an array programming language

[terse galleon]

yeah + i have beef with the current trainer (she calls me sweet girl which is so gross???)

[devout vault]

Don't care, use a better name

[devout vault]

I was making a joke about relative vs absolute

[safe dragon]

going through the wiki list of programming languages is fascinating

[rain apex]

Khloe it's not too late to rename it to Khord

[devout vault]

It is though

There's a github org and everything

[ivory shadow]

I literally showed you why it's called that and showed you a wikipedia article full of nonsense compsci talk and everything though

[devout vault]

Can't recall if there's a domain yet

[devout vault]

I remember. Don't care, use a better name

[ivory shadow]

Fair

[safe dragon]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BlooP_and_FlooP

fascinating

[ivory shadow]

class Test<pleasemakethisarealtypeatruntime T>```

[long verge]

"to ilustrate a point in his book"

these guys had too much free time

[devout vault]

the average person when they see me release stardew3d

[safe dragon]

the average person when they see my runescape playtime

[long verge]

i feel you✌️

[ivory shadow]

the average person when I finally release my port of Roslyn to Java in another few months or however long

[prisma flume]

the average person when they see me reclining on a soft chaise lounge sipping an ice cold beverage

[rain apex]

What does account value mean

[devout vault]

That's steamdb

Not rs

[safe dragon]

the total cost of all your games if you bought them at their lowest ever retail price I believe

[devout vault]

It deson't count if it's not in a single game like crumble

[rain apex]

Wow huh i wonder how many monies im worth

[ivory shadow]

At least 5 probably

[safe dragon]

I have over 1000 hours in a single custom self-imposed ruleset ironman account in runescape

[devout vault]

I wish I could check my eq2 playtime without logging on and installing it

[long verge]

The value of the account

I don't know how to explain it better

[devout vault]

I believe they meant how its calculated 😛

It's what crumble said

[rain apex]

Yeah i assumed it was runescape

[safe dragon]

I was wrong

[rain apex]

And was like do u count how many party hats or something

[long verge]

Sum of lowest prices of all games owned

[cinder karma]

What's this?

[ivory shadow]

Hmm. Now I wish I could recall my exact FFXIV playtime. I know it's over 10,000 hours.

[safe dragon]

wait no I was right I was hovering over the wrong thing

I'm tired

[ivory shadow]

Or wait, was that the next milestone and it's like 8k hours

Now I can't remember lol

[cinder karma]

910 euro isnt too bad

[devout vault]

Did you play standalone and not through steam?

[cinder karma]

I did the math for my wall of shoes, lol

"Most of these shoes were between $80 to $140" lol

[long verge]

Today's prices is a more accurate value of your account

[ivory shadow]

Yup. Didn't make sense to me to buy it through Steam.

[cinder karma]

It's like looking at your stock portfolio but not really

[devout vault]

I'd had to unprivate everything to check mine

However

[safe dragon]

I don't have a stock portfolio

[cinder karma]

Europeans

(Not even a retirement account?)

[ivory shadow]

Since we're doin this

[safe dragon]

uh I mean not one I opened myself but yes my employers have put money into accounts that will eventually be part of my retirement

[safe dragon]

fancy

[long verge]

Why do you have private games ?

[safe dragon]

I'd assume their entire profile

[devout vault]

I privated a while back when testing splitscreen steam remote play stuff for SDV. It hadn't even been announced publicly yet, so didn't want to risk it somehow

[safe dragon]

I've spent 234 euros on games I have never played

damn

assuming lowest prices

which is not going to be true

[devout vault]

Haven't bothered fixing since

[long verge]

way too much free time

[devout vault]

I know the implication is "horny games".

[long verge]

congrats on the 21 years of service

[ivory shadow]

Hey Valve my steam account is 21 years old now you should definitely reward me with immediate access to a Steam Frame

[long verge]

I read Steam France i was confused for a sec

[devout vault]

I have no problems with horny games. Here, let me prove it with this achievement that you get by installing the free 18+ DLC for a particular VN

[safe dragon]

I made a steam account for terraria and terraria continues to release new updates to this day...

[devout vault]

(I assume saying that is fine re:server rules, since nothing close to explicit is shown/said here, but happy to delete if not okay)

[cinder karma]

It's actually fairly common, in order to avoid annoying your friends by launching one specific game 20x in an hour

[devout vault]

same

[cinder karma]

Cough

[safe dragon]

I'm reminded of lollipop chainsaw's achievement for trying to peek up their skirt

[cinder karma]

Not sure what terraria is

[safe dragon]

it's ok

[cinder karma]

Not bad for price per hour

[long verge]

where's the fun of launching a game 20 times an hour if not to annoy friend

[devout vault]

Uhhhhhhhhhh how about 14 years or more

[safe dragon]

the concept of an achievement that basically shames you is kind of interesting

[cinder karma]

Your steam account is older than half the server

[cobalt shore]

I tried so hard to get into terraria but I just haven't been able to TT

[devout vault]

Only half?

[cinder karma]

I once tried to see if I could make VSCode a game

[cinder karma]

Look, I'm ageless and ancient

Or, you know, early 30s

[devout vault]

I mean, if you're fine with it showing up as a different game in steam / to others, definitely possible

[safe dragon]

synonyms...

[long verge]

You can launch third party program through steam but it won't register as a game

[cinder karma]

I made it a game! But steam didn't pop up an alert for Kailey so it wasn't fun

So I got rid of it

[devout vault]

Atra this isn't an average=mean sort of situation, this is an average=median sort of situation

[cinder karma]

I also need to see if I can argue proton into running qspice on Linux

[devout vault]

What I mean is you can make it popup, but it'd show an actual steam game instead

Like make it say SDV when you really launched vscode

[cinder karma]

I'm not that mean

[devout vault]

I mean there are other options too

You could do it with touch grass simulator

[cinder karma]

Because this is a good use of my time

[devout vault]

I will not advocate for you trying this though, for the sake of the "atra doesn't open steam until stardew3d comes out" bit

[cinder karma]

It's literally the only program I regularly use that is windows only

[devout vault]

(Well, I guess technically it's "atar doesn't open steam until stardew3d is ready for casey to drag atra into playtesting")

[cinder karma]

So about that

The C word looms

I'm hoping to god it wont be between March and June

[devout vault]

Cholestorol?

[prisma flume]

christmas

[cursive sigil]

how do you even see this

[long verge]

https://steamdb.info/calculator/

[cursive sigil]

oh thanks

[long verge]

u're welcome

[cinder karma]

Can you get people not u

[long verge]

yes

[cinder karma]

Searching my username got the wrong person and I dont recall my id

[long verge]

go to your profile in steam and copy the link

[devout vault]

Your profile is private I thought

Like even though I'm friends with you I can't see what games you have

[cinder karma]

It's been a literal year!

[devout vault]

but your profile does show you owning something

[devout vault]

actually it's been 399 days

[hushed raven]

I thought my steam library would be worth more, only £1.7k, quite suprising

[cinder karma]

Speaking of stock portfolio

Why IS my HSA still not invested.....

[devout vault]

This setting also controls whether you’re seen as "in-game" and the title of the game you are playing.
Dang, wish that was separate

Oh well, mgiht as well finally fix this

[cinder karma]

Anyways I do know exactly how much money I've spent on steam lol

[cursive sigil]

i'm still waiting for it to refresh after making mine public

[cinder karma]

It's like $9

[devout vault]

me too now 😔

[devout vault]

Wow, it's almost like that's stardew-on-sale priced

[hushed raven]

When I first did it a while ago it did take like 4 hours roughly, so you may be waiting for a little while XD

[cursive sigil]

damn it

[hushed raven]

4 dollars more than you need to add friends! Congrats! XD

[cursive sigil]

After changing your privacy settings, it may take at least 5 minutes for SteamDB to clear the cache and see new data. Profile refreshed 12 minutes ago.
lies

[cinder karma]

Technically I also own a handful of games on rhe Amazon game store. I didnt pay for any of those or play them lol

(From the time last year Amazon gave me prime )

[cursive sigil]

breaking news: atra knew what games are this entire time

not helping those "being part of the youth" allegations she's been faced with

[cinder karma]

Guy at the gym who hit on me thought I was a college student

[cursive sigil]

and how did you dispel this thought of his

[steel kraken]

I at least used to have access to steamdb to bypass the server caches

I don't think I have it anymore though

ah yeah I've been explicitly demoted in the system now, only VIP now

[long verge]

Ah yes, the hundreds of free prime games I never claimed because most of them are on EGS

[cursive sigil]

makes sense considering i couldn't easily buy things online from here until i was already out of highschool

[devout vault]

it says "at least"

[long verge]

Excuse me what the actual fuck

[devout vault]

RIP

[cursive sigil]

i can read, i still feel lied to

[hushed raven]

Oh hey we've had steam for roughly the same amount of time, nice!

[steel kraken]

I do have an account thats slightly older

[devout vault]

amazing emoji, I'm sad it's not a standard one

[long verge]

18% of games played is hilarious

[devout vault]

I'm still waiting on the cache to clear mine

Refreshed 16 minutes ago

[hushed raven]

I am confused as to how I've had an account for so long, I certainly don't remember having an account at 9 years old...

[safe dragon]

riveting

[rain apex]

why do i have this game

[cinder karma]

Why don't you have that game

[devout vault]

I am physically incapable of reading this word without mentally playing the clip of that word in the skyrim book report unraveled

[prisma flume]

that is the most steam username i've seen in years

[long verge]

RAAAAHA SNCF 🇫🇷🇫🇷🇫🇷🥖🥖🥖

[cinder karma]

(What's egs)

[devout vault]

I think steamdb hates me specifically

20 minutes

Madness

[long verge]

Epic Game Store

[cinder karma]

What's that

[prisma flume]

it's what chickens come out of

[long verge]

Satan’s beloved child

(A game launcher)

[rain apex]

mods help im being accused of baguette

[devout vault]

Bow before me (except SinZ it seems)

[cinder karma]

What's the level

[cursive sigil]

so sinz is our definitive steam king it seems

[devout vault]

Nobody knows /s

[long verge]

Y’all are unemployed considering the playtime and employed considering the amount of games.
Shrodinger employement.

[hushed raven]

I mean, SinZ did have stuff to do with SteamDB so it's certainly fitting XD

[devout vault]

(Not entirely sure what all it's from, besides crafting badges. It unlocks various things like higher max friend count and more showcase slots on your profile)

[steel kraken]

I'm not in the top10 of my friends list

[hushed raven]

I don't even have 10 steam friends.... XD

[cursive sigil]

who tf are you friends with

same atlas lmao

[devout vault]

I mean I was 14 when I made my account...

[rain apex]

theres 24hr in a day and only 8 is for job

[devout vault]

And the vast majority of those games came from the glory days of humble bundle

[cursive sigil]

and like 4 of them are for you sometimes during work hours if you work from home

[devout vault]

@ sinz why is average playtime average=mean not average=median? smh

[long verge]

Fair

[steel kraken]

top two in steam level at least

[devout vault]

https://tenor.com/view/rookie-numbers-gif-26135237

[rain apex]

what currency is A dollars

[hushed raven]

Austrailian dollars

[cursive sigil]

look i averaged it

[long verge]

Australian

[cursive sigil]

it's just AS

[prisma flume]

odd. usually see it as AU$/AUD

[cinder karma]

Lolllllll

(Endless laughter)

Hey my fellow mathperson how many hours of day for job

[hushed raven]

AUD is also the one I see more often, especially because it can get confusing with single character country codes

[long verge]

Ask steamDB 🙂‍↕️

[hushed raven]

I really need to play the 176 (or more) unplayed games i have, theres gotta be some good gems hidden deep

[cursive sigil]

same, like i know i actually meant to buy those

[cinder karma]

I have a rule that I'm not allowed to accumulate (unused) media

Or yarn

[cursive sigil]

why must you refuse the joys of life

[hushed raven]

I have excess amounts of both, I should probably also have that rule XD

[rain apex]

i am banned from buying new games for the foreseeable future

until i play the stuff i own

[safe dragon]

you're supposed to play the games you own?

[cursive sigil]

only up to a maximum of 50% of them of course

no play only have

[cinder karma]

Tbh the real issue with me is yarn

[hushed raven]

I wonder why steamdb only says I have 700 games when the steam client says 2k, I don't think I've hidden over a thousand of them XD

[cinder karma]

Off topic but

https://youtu.be/b5B7TWR3QY0?si=rRJMw0tVC26DZQx7

[rain apex]

im worth $453 / $1304 (USD) on steam

49/66 games played is better rate than i thought

[cinder karma]

Now which of y'all have steam accounts bigger than my 401k account

[rain apex]

wtf when did they delist yakuza 0/kiwami/kiwami 2

[fleet wren]

since they released the director's cut for them

[rain apex]

weh my hours/price stats

[devout vault]

You're what the powerscalers would call "investment-lusted", so probably nobody

[rain apex]

i can still install and play delisted games right

[hushed raven]

yes as long as they're in your library

you just can't buy them which is a shame

[devout vault]

I've heard at least one of the new versions has some really weird / timeline-of-events-with-other-games-breaking changes

[runic kraken]

rewrote my ocaml parser code which used one mutable variable by implementing the state monad because i felt like i should

[little furnace]

That's why Steam keys are so great. As far as I know, no other platform offers anything like that.

By the way, the game I played most is the game this very Discord server is dedicated to, and that's 200 hours, so... no, I don't play a lot.

[runic kraken]

steam is great

[cinder karma]

The steam engine is awesome

[hushed raven]

the torque they can produce is absolutely insane, props to incompressible fluids

[lucid sundial]

here Iwas thinking you were saying steam deck/machine

was gonna say, how did u get ur hands on the steam machine already 🤣

[cinder karma]

(I'm not going to get the steam machine)

[supple ether]

The steam machine looks sick but if I had the money to burn on it I would rather spend it on a better gpu for my current pc

[prisma flume]

really all i want is a steam link or whatever it was. let me remote play and watch tv

[cinder karma]

https://youtu.be/6bHrtsn2Cbc?si=VHjagScJrA6GGy20

I'm so sorry

[red crest]

I still have my old physical steam link

[cinder karma]

This is my new obsession

(The old How It's Made TV show)

[hushed raven]

I have the physical one from ages ago! it wasn't the best at the time iirc, but the software steamlink is so much better is my experience

[cinder karma]

What's a steam link

[devout vault]

it was a good show

[cinder karma]

It's an amazing show

The best TV has to offer

[prisma flume]

iirc essentially a terminal for io devices to your desktop pc, meant to plug into a tv in the living room

[devout vault]

https://tenor.com/view/doubt-press-x-la-noire-meme-x-button-gif-19259237

[cinder karma]

Oh. I dont know what a TV is

[devout vault]

(@ atra not you blueberry)

[cinder karma]

Or a living room

[hushed raven]

This thing, it allowed you to stream steam games from your PC to a TV or other display method, now entirely replaced by the steam link software integrated into the Steam client and the Steam Link app on mobile

[cinder karma]

Please tell me what TV show is more of a masterpiece

[devout vault]

A living room is a synonym for "mimic that is scarily large"

[hushed raven]

Honestly I'm with Atra, HIM is fantastic and so very hard to beat

[devout vault]

I'll concede to "best non-fiction TV show"

[hushed raven]

What fiction show is better?

[pliant snow]

I got a steam link when they were selling them for like $8

even though I want to like it, it kinda sucks

[hushed raven]

I feel like it would be a lot better if it also worked as a general use casting system rather than just steam things, I imagine it probably has been hacked together to do that, especially given the link is already able to cast the whole desktop and not just the game

[devout vault]

Owl House

[hushed raven]

Ahhh okay that is close fair point

[devout vault]

Also like the newer She-ra

That was my favorite before I found out about TOH

[hushed raven]

She-ra? is that the one with Shego?

[devout vault]

Not remotely

That's kim possible, I think?

[hushed raven]

nvm then XD

Oh I was very off XD

[red crest]

(Kim Possible yes)

[devout vault]

She-ra and the Princesses of Power

Which is gonna be no longer on netflix soon despite being a netflix original

By soon I mean like... in a week

[hushed raven]

removing their originals? unheard of!

oh that's a lot sooner

[devout vault]

It's been known for a couple months

Oh, sorry, I was wrong

Not in a week

In 2 days

[hushed raven]

is it going to be anywhere else? (officially that is) or is it going to become lost media?

[devout vault]

I don't think we know yet

...also maybe just the US?

On the other hand DreamWorks is owned by NBCUniversal which owns the streaming service "Peacock". So maybe it will be added to that.
ah

[hushed raven]

Theres still hope for me to watch it! discounting the fact I probably won't get netflix

[devout vault]

There's also other series that just disappeared completely, though

[hushed raven]

Ahh ye we don't get peacock in the UK, atleast not yet, I thinks it's planned? but has been planned for a while like paramount+

[runic kraken]

I would post the absolute worst code I wrote in my life earlier when I literally gaslit the CLR to perform type-class static dispatch but it would make everyone cry

It is the pinnacle of unsafety and bad practices

[devout vault]

Does it use unsafe

[runic kraken]

Far worse

[devout vault]

If it doesn't use unsafe you can't call it the pinnacle of unsafety, smh

[runic kraken]

It hijacked the vtable directly

[steel kraken]

if you aren't using unsafe to get back access to raw pointers, you aren't unsafe

[runic kraken]

It makes unsafe look safe

[runic kraken]

Trust me, this makes unsafe look safe

[steel kraken]

with respect, I'm not going to trust your word on it

[runic kraken]

    public static HKT<M, A> LiftIO<M, A>(IO<A> io) where M : MonadIO<M>
    {
        if (default(M) == null || default(M) is not MonadIO<M>)
            throw new InvalidOperationException($"Type {typeof(M)} does not implement MonadIO");

        return ((M)default! as MonadIO<M>).LiftIO(io);
    }

Its forcing a null pointer to act as a vtable lookup for my static dispatch since C# requires object based dispatch

[devout vault]

Yeah I wouldn't call that unsafe

[runic kraken]

I dont think you know how bad this code is

This is literally force casting a null pointer and calling a method on it

[devout vault]

I think you underestimate the understanding of people here

I can see very well what it is. But an important thing to note is that object references aren't pointers

They're very similar, yeah. But for example, the garbage collector can move them around whenever it wants (assuming no pins and such)

[runic kraken]

Its not an object, its a class with zero metadata

[devout vault]

That's why we get null reference exceptions and segfaults or similar

[runic kraken]

Its maybe not the same as directly causing a segfault, but unsafe lets you know the code is unsafe, this is "safe" unsafe code

[devout vault]

default(SomeClass) is a reference. To null

[runic kraken]

I'm aware and thats why its so bad

It should cause a NullReferenceException but because its not an actual class with properties and state, it acts like the worlds worst type-level dispatch

Atleast thats what I understand is happening

[steel kraken]

but its not actually dangerous code, unsafe code lets you do actual memory corruption and changing the memory of vtable, stack and whatever else.

your code doesn't break anything

[runic kraken]

It would cause a NullPointerException in 99% of usecases, I hit the 1% where it is "safe" but very very very undefined behaviour

[steel kraken]

NullReferenceExceptions are easy to cause without unsafe, its just hitting them raises an exception and not hard crasshing the process or bluescreening the OS

[runic kraken]

I agree but this is still incredibly cursed, unstable, code

[steel kraken]

still safer than unsafe

[runic kraken]

Every time it does a static dispatch, it has to use this hack because I implemented higher kinded witness projection types and typeclasses by hijacking C# interfaces

[runic kraken]

Thats like arguing a nuclear reactor is safer than chernobyl, only because I have contained it - both are still very dangerous

Unsafe is more visibly unsafe, this is forcing a null pointer to act as a vtable dispatch

[devout vault]

Unsafe isn't a pinky promise that you use to say you'll only do "unsafe" things there

It's a marker that you can do direct unguarded memory access there

[runic kraken]

unsafe doesnt directly hijack the function vtable, even if you can literally do pointer stuff

[devout vault]

I think you're missing what I'm saying

"Unsafe" doesn't mean "only safe code allowed elsewhere". It means "hey, the compiler will let you do some specific things here that it won't allow elsewhere"

[runic kraken]

I understand perfectly, but in an unsafe block you atleast let the caller know that too

[devout vault]

Well sure, but we don't get mark everything has Implications™

Like we don't have a marker for every method that uses network access

You can't have a marker required for any time someone does something dumb/sketchy. That's basically what the entire halting problem is

And there's very little you can do outside of unsafe block type stuff that will cause weird and hard to track down crashes in the same way. That's their point, and I'm guessing that code you posted won't do it either

At worst, an exception

[runic kraken]

This code is so unstable that if anyone adds a single Field to IOK, changes LiftIO to use this or do ANY state access, it will implode immediately

I would argue that is far worse than a memory leak caused by a pointer

[devout vault]

Yeah, and so would a lot of stuff based on reflection

And reflection - at least done via standard C# mechanisms - is definitely not on the level of memory corruption and leaks

[runic kraken]

And I do mean a single field

[hushed raven]

aww that's not fun, memory corruption and leaks are great to figure out!

[runic kraken]

This is essentially reflection via hijacking the class vtable because of how cursed my type witnesses are

[prisma flume]

ahhhhhhhhh we pay dearly for the crime of refactoring one project by being told it's great and to do it again for every other project

grew too close to the sun

[devout vault]

Clearly, just never refactor anything and suffer from code debt eternally

[cinder karma]

Just declare code bankruptcy

[prisma flume]

no amount of tasty treats can get me through this much reading and copying code

fortunately i found my mindless positive affirmation for the day
https://old.reddit.com/r/Embroidery/comments/1r93l0h/yall_im_so_proud_of_my_little_blueberry/

[devout vault]

Good thing you aren’t a rhubarb anymore

[lavish flume]

[runic kraken]

fun fact: I did not understand haskell for like 2 years because I was trying to understand visual metaphors that made no sense

when i just stripped those away and learnt the pure logic and math, thats when it clicked

A monad being a burrito makes absolutely no sense. But it being a monoid in the category of endofunctors (which are functors that have morphisms from Self → Self) makes infinitely more sense

[supple ether]

I've had ExecutionEngineExceptions from modding before. Those are fun.

I also once had a != null check throw a nullpointerexception

You can fuck up the clr in truly incredible ways using transpilers or emit

[devout vault]

Very fun.

Are you familiar with dwarf fortress?

[supple ether]

In passing

[devout vault]

Ongoing joke in that community about how losing = fun

[cinder karma]

Overloaded operator fun?

There's a reason why I never use == or != for a nullcheck

[supple ether]

Well IIRC it's kind of a story generator game, so that makes sense

[devout vault]

I feel like I've had this too at some point

[devout vault]

I think the idea was - at least for Fortress mode - you cannot finish a save file without losing or abandoning it

[supple ether]

No, bad parameter typing that wasn't caught by the jit

[devout vault]

But yeah, AccessViolationException is another fun one

[cinder karma]

Bad parameter typing

.....oh, harmony

How i absolutely do not miss you

[supple ether]

Transpiled code calling a regular method with bad args

Usually the jit can figure it out but apparently sometimes not

[cinder karma]

This feels on topic

[supple ether]

Oops, you're right

[cinder karma]

This also feels after atra bedtime

[devout vault]

Just commit non-harmony-based code crimes

[cinder karma]

As I told you

The conditions of my parole

[devout vault]

The 3d mod only uses harmony for conveninence, I'm pretty sure the few patches it has could be doable without it

[cinder karma]

No more crimes

[prisma flume]

there was a truly incredible error i had in sdv for bundle modding where patching a method including only a switch statement would result in a fatal engine execution error, but only if a debugger was attached

so anyway even though that's fixed i'm never updating that mod for 1.6

[supple ether]

All EEEs are fatal

[prisma flume]

never found out why, just resolved after a major game update

[devout vault]

...how about code transgressions?

[supple ether]

It's an unrecoverable error bc it's thrown when the clr detects state corruption

[prisma flume]

i should emphasise that this particular error was fatal to me as well as the program

[devout vault]

RIP

Possibly my earliest "weird harmony error" https://github.com/spacechase0/SpaceCore_SDV/issues/2#issuecomment-318829934

[cinder karma]

Nope. Straight and narrow

[devout vault]

...so if we add ways to do things via code virtues, will you rejoin us?

...also wow it's midnight already?

[sand frost]

Does a virtue cancel out a transgression?

[cinder karma]

It's modding. It's code crimes all the way down

[devout vault]

If I write a framework where you can mod without code crime, will you rejoin us?

Will you return home to reclaim your lost legacy?

Will you grace us with a new mod one last time?

[prisma flume]

shovel

[rain apex]

in C# if i impl IDisposable do i also have to do ~MyClass() => Dispose() to make it call disposable on GC

[supple ether]

yes

but make sure to check if it's already been disposed if you do that

since dispose might get called multiple times

if you're using VS, it's one of the automatic suggestions when you make a class IDisposable ("Impement with dispose pattern")

[devout vault]

…the GC doesn’t auto call it, eventually?

[rain apex]

The particular thing i want to achieve is to make absolutely sure that my event callbacks r removed when the instance goes out of scope

[red crest]

Every time I've implemented IDisposable it has been with great uncertainty and fear that I was still fucking it up despite copying others

In my case it was also with event callbacks and I did indeed fuck it up and eventually moved away from using IDisposable

And instead just called the callbacks from an outside-the-instance place (ModEntry) that wouldnt need them disposed

[rain apex]

-# rust Drop trait in C# pls

Yeah I am probably just being dum...

The only time i feel confident about using IDisposable is in conjunction with a weak reference

[supple ether]

no. destructors are auto-called but the GC has no idea about IDisposable

[devout vault]

My world view, shattered.

My garbage, left out on the counter to rot

[devout vault]

I’ve always worked on the assumption that events are strong references, and so would prevent it from being GCed

A few times I’ve abused that fact - in both magic and jump over (pre any pathos refactoring), I basically just did new Jump(); which subscribed to events like UpdateTicked, and then unsubscribed itself once done

[steel kraken]

Yes event handlers are an ez way to memory leak as a result

[supple ether]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3so7xdZHKxw

this is fascinating

[steel kraken]

Oh there is opus magnum DLC now
https://store.steampowered.com/app/3107410/Opus_Magnum_De_Re_Metallica/

[heavy dagger]

Title result: Opus Magnum: De Re Metallica on Steam

[thin estuary]

whaaat, i thought they were done

and apparently it comes out on my birthday

but i have yet to play Opus Magnum

[safe dragon]

weirdest thing about IDisposable to me is that C# gives you no warnings when you don't dispose them

[safe dragon]

wtf

[steel kraken]

The only Disposable in my personal projects is one to deliberately (ab)use using blocks with

[dusty pollen]

it’s excellent, tied for my favourite zachtronic

[earnest cairn]

https://store.steampowered.com/app/3107410/Opus_Magnum_De_Re_Metallica/ DLC announced 😄

Steam

Opus Magnum: De Re Metallica

An independent story set before the events of Opus Magnum, De Re Metallica follows a maverick alchemical researcher named Saverio Daas, who believes he can unlock metallurgical secrets that even the Imperial Academy has not uncovered! Along the way he’ll clash with established orthodoxy, bicker with his assistant, and attract attention from the…

Release Date

Mar 17, 2026

[heavy dagger]

Title result: Opus Magnum: De Re Metallica on Steam

[steel kraken]

I don't know how I was the one to first post it considering I haven't played any of them

[safe dragon]

I check the steam store once every few months

[steel kraken]

I saw it from a retweet from scott manley where it was posted 10 hours prior to me linking it

[safe dragon]

😌

[prisma flume]

this is official 'it's happening' channel now
https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/422970/view/496095152751772412

[heavy dagger]

Title result: Devil Daggers - Celebrating 10 years! - Steam News

[dusty pollen]

what's a devil daggers

[prisma flume]

it isn't a zachtronic or a puzzle or a brain game, just a fast-paced survival time trial with a wicked ost and satisfyingly crunchy visuals

but it's announced 👯‍♀️👯‍♀️👯‍♀️

[dusty pollen]

#announcements-off-topic

[prisma flume]

their fault for making me look at steam store 🙂‍↕️

[hushed raven]

Oh wow those graphics are crunchy, I love them

[prisma flume]

one of my favourite games for sure

[hushed raven]

and a damn good price too

[prisma flume]

it's extremely simple and limited in scope and scale, you're not getting anything but a survival trial

[dusty pollen]

I don't get why my steam discovery queue is 100% "because it's popular"s when I'm literally the easiest person to figure out the video game tastes of

also steam should have a separate "mildly interested" wishlist

[hushed raven]

a mildly interested wishlist would be quite useful, my current wishlist is a massive mess

[prisma flume]

there sort of is one, the follow list

[hushed raven]

it seems mine is the same, none of the games I am remotely interested in however XD

[hushed raven]

ngl, I forgot that even existed

[dusty pollen]

I now also question what "popular" even means because a game with 73 reviews and a "mixed" rating doesn't feel like it meets the "because it's popular" label

[hushed raven]

I wanna say positive reviews/days released? that seems to be it so far atleast

[dusty pollen]

(fwiw, the interactive recommender is kind of buried in a menu but MUCH more useful)

[hushed raven]

Oh a new Styx game released yesterday too!

interactive recommender?

Found it

[dusty pollen]

for anyone else, go to store > recommendations > interactive recommender

[hushed raven]

The personal calender also in the recommendations drop down is fantastic, I wish I knew that existed a while ago

[safe dragon]

my discovery queue is actually mostly tiny indie games with 10 reviews

[long verge]

You guys use discovery queue ?

[safe dragon]

no

[prisma flume]

discovery queue is meaningless to me. i do not wish to discover your games 🙂‍↕️ i will play games from 20 years ago

[safe dragon]

I don't really use interactive recommender either cause it just shows me games I already know

[hushed raven]

fancy sharing your discovery queue? stealing all the good indies! XD

[safe dragon]

I didn't say they were good indie games

[dusty pollen]

I would if it worked

[dusty pollen]

-# the interactive recommender has a game age slider

[safe dragon]

this is the shit I get

[dusty pollen]

just when I figured out demetriums, I'm hit with charkrobus

[prisma flume]

my indie games discovery queue for u
obra dinn > cave story > devil daggers > princess remedy > luftrausers > vvvvvv > love > escape goat > dropsy

[dusty pollen]

that's vote one million for obra dinn

[safe dragon]

steam keeps crashing on my phone when using the discovery queue

[hushed raven]

VVVVVV is such a good game, I loved it, so hard, but so fun

[dusty pollen]

is that that one platformer

[prisma flume]

yes it is

[hushed raven]

yep, the one with the platforming

[dusty pollen]

the only platformer I'll ever need is the original flash version of the fireboy and watergirl games 😌

[prisma flume]

mmmmmmmmmmmmm noise
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_ngghzH-CsgGG9hs4nJdRQaJnDT1jyGCd0

[hushed raven]

the fireboy and watergirl games were so fun, even if you had no one to play with

[safe dragon]

I have two hands, fireboy and watergirl can be played

[prisma flume]

cave story is my favourite story platformer, vvvvvv gameplay platformer, love time trial platformer, escape goat puzzle platformer

cave story and vvvvvv do have such good music

[hushed raven]

Certainly a descriptive game name, it looks like a modernised omsi

[long verge]

Memory unlocked

[hushed raven]

the music in vvvvvv is some of my favorite music in any game and likely where my love for that kind of music comes from

[prisma flume]

honestly shocking how good it is lol

super hexagon has great similar music but it's not exactly the same (for better or worse depending on ur point of view)

[hushed raven]

oh wow it's 16 years old this year

[safe dragon]

vvvvvv is great

[prisma flume]

frozen synapse is a little similar too

[hushed raven]

v6 and super hexagon are by the same dev apparently, I'll have to check it out

[safe dragon]

best platforming in a videogame would be a tossup between ori 2 and silksong though

[hushed raven]

I apparently have 4.5 hours in froxen synapse but I don't remember a single thing from it XD

[prisma flume]

mm i didn't think much of the game, but the music sticks with me

[safe dragon]

oh and Celeste idk why I forgot them. They're kinda different

[long verge]

My favorite plateformer is Sheepy

[hushed raven]

celeste is fantastic aswell, agreed

[safe dragon]

the best platformer is obviously Minecraft parkour servers

[long verge]

( https://store.steampowered.com/app/1568400/Sheepy_A_Short_Adventure/ )

[heavy dagger]

Title result: Sheepy: A Short Adventure on Steam

[hushed raven]

or the parkour in the lobbies of said servers, phenominal

[hushed raven]

Ooo it's free! shoulda started with that, I'll be having a go at that later

[dusty pollen]

(I also liked the shift games to be fair, but they're kind of just a flash game take on the general vibe of portal haha)

(not the mechanics but the tone and the fact they force you not to think about space in the normal way)

[prisma flume]

oh you just reminded me of time fcuk

[long verge]

Hehe
It has amazing pixel art and musics

[dusty pollen]

shift are black and white platformers where when you press shift, you flip down into the platform so that the colour that was the background is the platform now and vice versa

and also you get mocked a lot by the narrator

https://armorgames.com/play/751/shift

[long verge]

Ah yes, armorgames, the first company to leak my information online after a breach

[dusty pollen]

nooooo

I never signed up for them

[long verge]

The child version of me wanted to save his progress on Kingdom Rush

It’s fine tho, my badminton federation also leaked my informations

[dusty pollen]

oh they weren't even subtle about the inspiration, huh

[prisma flume]

hello it's not just free. it's 21mb ✨
https://store.steampowered.com/app/407900/

[hushed raven]

Any free games I will gladly try out, games that are also tiny are a HUGE bonus

[prisma flume]

actually speaking of indies, i had fun playing satellite reign with friends, tho it's extremely jank

maybe the single most satisfying ending payoff in games ever to balance it out

[hushed raven]

I am loving the artstyle and perspective, I remember playing a game very similar with those and it was great fun

[prisma flume]

to satellite reign? it's a really good looking game and i enjoyed the world, but there's not much depth and the gameplay is very half-baked. one of those games where it's what you make of it

great little story tho

[hushed raven]

I mean, I play a lot of simulators, if they aren't the definition of half baked and not much depth, I don't know what is XD

[safe dragon]

oh joy

the the random scenario where the server suddenly uses 6 GB of ram is back

now to transfer a 9GB large memdump over the VPN

[rain apex]

Yes but i have separate logic to deactivate the handlers + enforce dispose too

[safe dragon]

as per usual the problem fixed itself through arcane magic a few minutes later but I got the memdump in time

[rain apex]

If i could make a weakref event somehow that would be better rho

[cinder karma]

You could do that yes

I think both Wren and I have attempts at weak event handlers

It's also apparently a major thing in one of the winforms

[uncut seal]

hell yeah, I just had to 100% it so that they could announce that

[rain apex]

Yeah i looked at various times i used disposable and i have done it wrong thus far

They end up being formalized "deactivate" patterns

[cinder karma]

Yeah, the idisposable isnt magic

Secretly... chue they're in my repo just as a warning to BE CAREFUL

I never fully ironed this out but I was talking about

https://github.com/atravita-mods/AtraBase/blob/d2ed899bfb952c9e9a54b55d411b3ae234c48109/AtraBase/Events/WeakEventManager.cs#L10

[rain apex]

I think I may just go the other direction and not even impl IDisposable

To reduce my confusion about whether i gotta call thing or not

[cinder karma]

Weak events existed in one of the Microsoft attempts at a UI engine iirc

Mine isnt based on anything + doesnt respect order of any kind

("Doesn't behave like people expect") is over the order of event raising which i didnt guarantee

And maybe smth aboit how

Event +=
Event -=

Might not be right

[rain apex]

Shenanigans...

[cinder karma]

And that HashSet needs to be thread safe, etc

Anyways there is a reason why there is a comment saying Teh says it might be bonkers

[rain apex]

Yeah it seems pain to do unless C# itself had support for such a thing

[cinder karma]

I didn't require strict ordering and the way I think of this class it wouldn't have mattered since the class handles de-register

Oh, I know

-=
+=

To not register twice is a normal c# pattern and because I wanted a high degree of thready i didnt support that

Ah, net 5

Back when I also had to implement my own binary heap

Chue if you're not doing threads it's actually really easy tbh

[cinder karma]

To be fair that pattern also only makes sense in a single threaded world

Thinking back on it

I would need to implement an atomic "add if not added before" for a threaded world

Like an AddOrUpdate

[rain apex]

Yes but I'm weighing whether it's even worth doing when i do usually know the best time to yeet things

[cinder karma]

You could also make a single pass-through class that handled a single event reference

[dusty pollen]

"5 years or newer" "2007"

[cinder karma]

Sorry

I exchanged 2026 for 1999 again

[dusty pollen]

you know, that actually leaves us in a much worse problem

considering that would put portal negative eight years ago

[long verge]

« I don’t know anything »

[safe dragon]

oh shit

async2 is coming in .NET 11

no longer will async code compile into an entire unwieldy state machine

[cinder karma]

Fuck yeahhhh

[safe dragon]

honestly regardless of what happens with the performance of it. I'd just be happy with the actually readable async stack traces

[cinder karma]

Let's goooooooooo

[devout vault]

Yeah, I really wish we could have scope-based destructors in C# somehow, for the sake of not accidentally not forgetting using and such.

C++ may be super weird and confusing in some places, but that was one part I really liked about it

[safe dragon]

in rust it's all automatic!

[devout vault]

god, yes please

[worn remnant]

hey so i'm doing some (mod) stuff in ye olde C# and i'm adding event handlers with += and removing them with -= when i don't need them anymore and do i need to do something else to avoid leaking memory? i didn't know this was a concern

[dusty pollen]

@ steam hire me for more brilliant ideas like this

[safe dragon]

give me a wishlist that's "games my mom might like that I want to keep an eye on for when she's running out of things to play"

[devout vault]

I believe that's really new. Like, within the last 6 months? Or at least the last year?

[heavy dagger]

New quote added by kittycatcasey as #7386 (https://discordapp.com/channels/137344473976799233/1215712021207720006/1474365474497368064)

[cinder karma]

Does steam not allow multiple wishlist

[cinder karma]

If you're sticking to smapi events you dont have a problem

[worn remnant]

ok phew, thanks atra

[dusty pollen]

and if not?

[devout vault]

is that the keyword name

[devout vault]

hissssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss

https://tenor.com/view/bg3-hiss-cat-his-majesty-baldur's-gate-3-gif-18380093261350192463

[devout vault]

Multiple wishlists in general to be honest. Amazon has it.

[devout vault]

It does not 😔

[safe dragon]

nope it just replaces how async works today

[devout vault]

A backwards compatiblity break? Gasp

Will I be able to do async void f() without .net crying if I breath on it wrong

[safe dragon]

no cause that's still bad practice

[cinder karma]

Then we're on topic

And I can code review in #making-mods-general

[devout vault]

Surely it would still be good to make it suck less

[cinder karma]

Smh

[safe dragon]

if they were gonna go a direction with async void it'd be to introduce a project setting that makes async voids a compilation error

[devout vault]

(As we all know, I have extensive lack of experience with async, thanks to the notorious amount of threads that SDV does not use)

[safe dragon]

idk how exactly async void will behave in the new scenario

[thin estuary]

what's wrong with async void

[devout vault]

.net cries if you breath on it wrong

(crashes the process if an exception is unhandled, I think?)

[cinder karma]

No error handling

[safe dragon]

unawaitable async call that will fuck your entire application up if it throws an exception

[cinder karma]

So if an error escapes

You're supposed to use asynchronous Task

[thin estuary]

oh are we talking about the old async world without Tasks

oh

[cinder karma]

Y up

So dont do that

Shockah, how is Swift

[safe dragon]

yeah async void is like you want to use async task but you're doing something wrong

[thin estuary]

it lets you async void without it yelling at you

because, guess what, it's built into the language properly

[cinder karma]

It's one of a few cases (valuetuple, semphapore slim) where Microsoft botched the first implementation

And they acknowledge

[safe dragon]

from what I remember the only reason async void is even allowed is because it's used behind the scenes for a bunch of ancient Event handling shenanigans

[devout vault]

Will .net 11 finally add runtime mixins

plz

[safe dragon]

I don't know what those are

[thin estuary]

sounds like more programming crimes

[devout vault]

I wanna add interface implementations and fields and such onto things, at runtime

[thin estuary]

yes, definitely programming crimes

[devout vault]

points at title

You can do it at compile time with a source generator and partial. I have done it before

[thin estuary]

why would they do this

[devout vault]

For the modders, of course

Aren't they the highest market share of C# users???!?!?!?

[thin estuary]

if only modders were more than like 0.5% of their users

[devout vault]

that feels generous

https://gist.github.com/spacechase0/94670a81d823d9cbf5d395648ec81f48

[safe dragon]

totally yes

[cinder karma]

Tbh I think game devs is

[safe dragon]

unfortunately 90% of those are unity game developers who are still stuck with the mono runtime

[cinder karma]

One reason why Swift is on my list

To learn

As is Zig

[safe dragon]

what about Beef

[cinder karma]

I'm no game dev

I dont even know what a video game is

[thin estuary]

it's a game that plays you a video, duh

[safe dragon]

I do wonder how big of the userbase of C# is game development

it's not going to be a lot

[thin estuary]

do you think there's more C# game developers or C# game modders?

[devout vault]

I prefer chicken. Or some forms of pork, like sausage

[safe dragon]

there's probably a gazillion terraria modders

[devout vault]

I would assume modders, yeah

[prisma flume]

another entry in the ever-growing C family

[devout vault]

A game is way more work

And I say this as someone doing the most insane SDV mod ever (the 3d/vr one)

[safe dragon]

I guess a different question would be... what's going to be the most common usecase of C#

if I had to guess it's web APIs

[thin estuary]

for sure

both backend and frontend

[safe dragon]

maybe at one point it was winforms

dark times

unfortunately we're still in the dark times for web frontends in C#

[thin estuary]

is Blazor that bad

[safe dragon]

though I did see Blazor fixed a few of my major complaints in .NET 10

[safe dragon]

it's the best they've done so far!

by a long shot in fact

I still think it's pretty bad though

if it had had to truly compete with the js offerings no one would've even considered it

it being C# is basically the selling point that keeps it relevant

if Blazor had come out in a world before React it'd have been pretty damn good though

but now in a world with stuff like Svelte or SolidJS...

[devout vault]

On a 1-10 scale, 2 is still twice as good as 1

[safe dragon]

I'll be so kind to even give Blazor a 6

[devout vault]

So you're saying if I invent time travel, I should give one of them to the blazor devs?

one of them
Yes, one of the time travels. They're consumable microtransactions. You have to pay extra for the return trip.

[safe dragon]

no cause wasm frameworks were basically worthless back then anyway

cause of poor support

😌

doomed

[devout vault]

They can bring back wasm with them for an extra $0.99 ( * 10^8)

[safe dragon]

incredible

[steel kraken]

the Source 2 Viewer (ValveResourceFormat) project is still winforms and has walking physics now

granted its winforms because of me 11 years ago not wanting to use wpf/uwp

[safe dragon]

wtf

it does look a lot better than the cash register application I worked on in winforms

and it supports multiple resolutions I'm guessing...

[worn remnant]

i don't know but C# 14 has extension members and properties and maybe that's useful https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/csharp/whats-new/tutorials/extension-members

[devout vault]

For what I want, it is not 😔

If you did as a property, you'd still have to use a ConditionalWeakTable, which can be slow for stuff like rendering something many times every frame

[worn remnant]

i'll take your word for it (i've never used a cwt and still don't really know what it is) /lh

[safe dragon]

I've never heard of ConditionalWeakTable in my life

Enables compilers to dynamically attach object fields to managed objects.

[devout vault]

So uncultured 😔

It's basically a Dictionary<WeakReference<TType>, TValue>

[safe dragon]

soz I don't write compilers

[devout vault]

Neither do I

[worn remnant]

having looked up what a WeakReference is, it does seem like a poor fit for something you need to access for rendering multiple times per frame

[devout vault]

Yeah, I don’t know if it’s the CWT lookup or the weakref itself that is slow. But something is

Though I guess my main use case will potentially not need it anymore (in on-topic 1.7)

[thin estuary]

Cecil the fields in, make the extensions use the fields under the hood

It’s what I plan on doing in my mod loader

[devout vault]

Alas, the getting-it-merged-into-SMAPI barrier

I did try, once upon a time: https://github.com/Pathoschild/SMAPI/pull/724

[thin estuary]

is this time for SMAPIX

tbh you don't exactly need Cecil mods; you need to sell specific Cecil-powered features to Pathos instead

[devout vault]

I mean, there was a time when I did

[thin estuary]

one thing i've done like that in my mod loader:
https://github.com/Shockah/Cobalt-Core-Mods/blob/master/Natasha/nickel.json#L10-L13

[devout vault]

Specifically, to make every location a BuildableGameLocation

No longer necessary, of course

[rain apex]

Yeah i wonder if we could have some kinda "mod field registration"

Dangerously on topic tho

[devout vault]

That being said, I have a draft of SMAPI PR for SDV 1.7 which satisfies some of the cecil needs

(Incomplete, hence not being opened yet)

[devout vault]

this need, yeah

I think this is the first time I've said publicly what it is

[rain apex]

I am never gonna be a game dev professionally but sometimes I imagine what I'd do if i was make game with native mod support

[thin estuary]

if i ever make a game, i won't bother with official support

from experience, modders will always want to do crazy unimaginable things that you just can't officially support

[rain apex]

Just ship harmony with game ez

I think having official support for content is reasonable tho

[safe dragon]

"I just want to completely change every single aspect of this entire game into something entirely recognizable"

[devout vault]

I think there is some value to be gained by having some basic sandboxed support, for cases that you can't mod otherwise, like console

[rain apex]

That's how bald gate 3 does things

[devout vault]

Yeah

And other mod.io games too

(...does BG3 use mod.io? )

[rain apex]

Idk it has in-game browser thing

Dunno who's serving the files

[safe dragon]

me

[rain apex]

Thx crumbledore

[devout vault]

I'd like mine with extra code crimes, please

[safe dragon]

np

[thin estuary]

easy, don't release on consoles

if you're a small developer, it's not worth the hassle

[pliant snow]

I come with news

[thin estuary]

we know

you're third to post it

[devout vault]

I guess if the only reason you're interested is finances, perhaps.

[rain apex]

#zachtronics-general going strong i see

[thin estuary]

no, it's not worth the headaches

[devout vault]

Opus Magnum really has replaced Framework laptops 😔

[pliant snow]

my apologies, the next time I receive news of interest I shall not share it

[lethal walrus]

what if we play opus magnum on a framework

[devout vault]

don't listen to shockah, we love seeing the looping satisfying gifs

[cinder karma]

O.o

[thin estuary]

that we do

[cinder karma]

Nice

[devout vault]

I just think it's funny how this channel basically stopped talking about Frameworks around the time I got one

[pliant snow]

their checks stopped coming

[long verge]

I should have enough money to buy one soon and tell everyone about it don’t worry

[safe dragon]

the job was done

[devout vault]

It was all a psyop to get me, specifically, to buy one

I see

[safe dragon]

I have a framework laptop in my backpack rn if that matters

[devout vault]

I am using one right this second

[rain apex]

Official #programmers-off-topic Tier List
T0: Cats
T1: Zachtronics games
T1.5: Framework Laptops
T2: Linux
T3: Home Automation, Self Hosting
T99: Programming

[devout vault]

My eyes glaze over whenever there are long discussions here are T2 or T3

[pliant snow]

T98: Stardew Valley

[devout vault]

And sometimes T99 (ex. rust)

[rain apex]

redact this pls

[safe dragon]

my eyes gloss over for T3

mainly the home automation part

lights should be turned on by a mechanical process not software

[devout vault]

me @ my dad who at one point hooked up the kitchen light to alexa, so it can be off even if the switch is on

I've contemplated looking into the alexa api solely so I can make a small device to stick to the wall that is a button which sends the proper command to turn the light off

No, I don't want to install an app on my phone to do it

[pliant snow]

I have reached home automation nirvana

[safe dragon]

you removed all of it

[pliant snow]

I have this exact thing. It's a button that sits on my nightstand and when I press it, all the lights in the house go off

the secret is to not buy any wi-fi smart devices

[safe dragon]

mine is in the fusebox

a little more than the lights go off tho

[cinder karma]

Not enough cat pictures rn

Plz fix

[heavy dagger]

New quote added by atravita as #7388 (https://discordapp.com/channels/137344473976799233/1215712021207720006/1474438733267730474)

[devout vault]

See, if it were my home, any potential smart devices would be home only.

It is not my home.

[rain apex]

Sorry i only have this doog

He outranks me on the org chart i think

[devout vault]

My parents didn't quite understand that stance coming from me

[cinder karma]

Oh my god a cutie

Such a cute dog

[pliant snow]

I did successfully figure out my VLANs, so now this stupid alarm panel that the previous owners put in now lives in its own network, isolated from everyone and everything

[supple ether]

The crazy thing about smart home stuff too is that 99% of it doesn't even have any real utility. Like it's just smart for the sake of being smart

Programmable thermostats are probably the most useful application of smart tech and those aren't even that smart

[safe dragon]

giving a printer a gun smh

[rain apex]

I like smart home stuff in hotels because I can enjoy the novelty without having to live with it long term

[pliant snow]

smart thermostat is actually something I dont have, because I haven't yet found one I like to fit into my system

[safe dragon]

is it even smart if it doesn't require a cloud service to function

[worn remnant]

love too hook up my light bulbs to the internet so i can send packets to and from an unknowable data center in order to avoid touching the switch that is in the room with me

[safe dragon]

if you just want a thermostat to be off during times of the day you don't even need software

[supple ether]

I think colored lights are cool, but I don't understand how we haven't devised a way of just hardwiring them yet? You could just use 4 bundled wires and have them be analog, why do they need wifi and computer chips??

[devout vault]

I wouldn't say no real utility. I can definitely see the appeal of turning off lights without having to go to them, or being able to lock the door if you realize you forgot after you left the house and drove for 30min already

[pliant snow]

They don't need wifi, that's the thing. There's other wireless protocols that are completely local and don't connect to a cloud server or the internet at all

[supple ether]

Automatic light switches are part of the 1%

[devout vault]

But also, after they replaced the microwave recently, we realized my parents get notifications when I microwave stuff while they are out of town

[thin estuary]

i liked having smart bulbs when i was renting a place with shit light switch positioning

i just glued on my own smart buttons in the exact place i wanted, places that made sense

[supple ether]

That's a neat idea

[pliant snow]

I've got blinds that open and close with a motor, they're my love and joy

[devout vault]

Wait, are these existing products?

[thin estuary]

https://flic.io/

[devout vault]

Ah, an automatic cat toy

[supple ether]

But no I mean stuff like toasters with touchscreens, or range hoods that turn on automatically when the stove is on, or ovens that use an app to cook specific recipes

[thin estuary]

yeah screw that stuff

[devout vault]

brb messaging my parents to ask if I buy one can we please get a real button for the kitchen light

[safe dragon]

never in my life am I going to put software in my door lock. I've seen enough lockpickinglawyer to know to avoid those

someone will show up with a magnet and my door just magically opens

[devout vault]

Oh, same. But can see the appeal.

If there is one that could only lock and not unlock, from a mechanical perspective and not software, I would be more interested

[supple ether]

Also I feel like smart locks are re kind of thing that just screams "I have valuable things! Come rob me!"

[rain apex]

My fam have a fingerprint lock

But they r also in a gated apartment complex

[devout vault]

Well, in my parents case, you can't tell it's a smart lock unless you actually look inside the locking mechanism. I think

[devout vault]

Yeah same, and I hate it because they wanted me to register mine instead of giving me a physical key (years ago, maybe it'd be more okay now that I live here again for a while?)

[safe dragon]

"sorry I just showered it won't let me into my house cause it can't recognize my fingerprint"

[thin estuary]

i also can't see the appeal of custom digital car keys. yeah, what if the server goes down and i don't have my physical key with me?
stuff that goes through more global services, like Google or Apple, even though they're the devil, sounds more appealing to me, since that's at least unlikely to get me locked out so easily

[devout vault]

"Why are you showering outside?"

[safe dragon]

"rain"

[pliant snow]

"Dont kink shame me door, open up"

[marble jewel]

You showered and then recorded your fingerprints, so now you can only enter your house when your fingers are wet and pruny

[devout vault]

"skill issue, should've dodged every rain drop"

[safe dragon]

touhou players meme

[devout vault]

We have a solution, I just haven't picked it up from home depot and installed it yet
My parents are great and nobody can convince me otherwise

[cinder karma]

I kinda want these

I actually do want a fair bit of home automated in my forever homr

For example, automatically adjusting the minisplits based on whether or not a human is in the room

And redirecting power from the solar panels to the active minisplit

I'm also not against the idea of a smarter oven

But also, I'm a professional lol

[safe dragon]

I have curtains

[pliant snow]

that you have to open yourself, like the stone age

[safe dragon]

it's true

it's satisfying though

[devout vault]

Ah yes, the stone age, notorious for inventing curtains

And windows

<insert joke about microsoft>

[supple ether]

oh, that's pretty neat!

[supple ether]

that does seem nice, if only because you can schedule your blinds based on time of day and weather

[pliant snow]

Indeed, and I have a weather station that has a light sensor, so I can also do it by ambient light right outside

My washing machine is wi-fi compatable too, but I don't trust it, so I've been debating getting a vibration sensor and making some automations with that

[marble jewel]

I've got dual smart blinds (one that allows light,and the other blocks light). It's nice to wake up to gradual natural light every morning.

[safe dragon]

what purpose could there possibly be to give a washing machine wifi

you still have to put in the laundry yourself and take it out after

by physically being in front of it

[devout vault]

Tell you when it's done

[safe dragon]

we've had a solution for that for a long time

[devout vault]

Similar to this

[devout vault]

You mean a loud noise? Can't hear that from upstairs 😛

[safe dragon]

bragging about living in well insulated housing

I could hear my washing machine from the other side of town

[pliant snow]

if the screams don't reach me upstairs, my washing machine noise certainly won't

[supple ether]

speak for yourself. my parent's washing machine can be heard through the whole house. that shit is loud

same with the dishwasher

[safe dragon]

ok but a microwave is even more inexplicable

[devout vault]

I once had an alarm that could be heard from the backyard.

It was at the window, to be fair. But man, that alarm was loud

And it wasn't a nice sounding alarm sound

[safe dragon]

things don't go into the microwave for that long. Do you just run away to the other side of your street the second you press start on the microwave

[devout vault]

Not quite "that one ios alarm that sounds like a nuclear bomb warning", but close

[devout vault]

There are definitely things that microwave for 10 minutes or more

Frozen meals or something, usually

[safe dragon]

10 minutes is not a lot of time

[devout vault]

I mean I'm pretty sure I've seen 20-30 minutes too

[safe dragon]

[devout vault]

And it's not a long amount of time, but neither is my attention span

[supple ether]

at that point why not just use an oven

[safe dragon]

smart oven

[supple ether]

noooo

[devout vault]

Ask the frozen meal people.

...but also, preheating takes a while 😔

[safe dragon]

that sends you a notification on your phone when the timer reaches 0

[devout vault]

I'm not necessarily against all the smart home stuff, if it was all local only type stuff

It's the alexa type stuff that bugs me

[safe dragon]

unless you suffer from deafness I think all of these are never going to be worth the extra cost or extra ways the device could break

[marble jewel]

Local only is one of the things I require for any smart home device

[supple ether]

I like the idea of local smart-home stuff if it actually does something convenient

[devout vault]

I said "not necessarily against", not "like" 😛

[marble jewel]

I don't want an internet outage prevent me from doing anything in my own home

[devout vault]

Like if a miracle happens and I do get married and another miracle happens and I get a home, and my wife wants smart devices? I'll learn how to set up local only smart stuff

[supple ether]

more to the point I don't want my house to get hacked by some idiot with a laptop

[devout vault]

Extra cost? Is it not reaching the point where most options have that anyways?

[supple ether]

I mean yeah this is all theoretical because the chances of me ever owning a house are very small

[devout vault]

(genuinely, I don't exactly shop for appliances)

[supple ether]

but I can dream yknow

[devout vault]

good thing atra isn't around. or if they did, they didn't spot my self-deprecation

[marble jewel]

You can host a lot of smart home stuff pretty cheaply/easily, and it has a good community too

[supple ether]

most of what I've seen is not things I would be interested in, but automatic blinds would be nice. also idk if it's a thing but networked speakers would be kind of cool too

[safe dragon]

nah smart devices are still a premium. Other than for TVs

[marble jewel]

I was doing smart home automation even when I was still in a tiny apartment

[safe dragon]

for TVs they're your only option

[supple ether]

I hate smart tvs

[devout vault]

Fun fact (re:networked speakers)

The house we had before we moved to FL in 2007 had an intercom system, with a terminal in each bedroom and also some other rooms like the living room and dining room (if I remember right).

It didn't work, but it always seemed neat

[supple ether]

I don't hate the concept of a tv with a proper UI instead of an OSD, but I hate the idea of a TV with apps on it

[devout vault]

Intercom might be the wrong word. All the terminals were bidirectional, I think

I don't know if intercoms technically are

[supple ether]

that's awesome

[safe dragon]

I do wish we brought back simpler tech. Like a microwave that's simply just a microwave. A timer and wattage dial and that's that. I don't need a special popcorn button that the microwave popcorn tells me not to use

[marble jewel]

My problem with Smart TVs is they're rarely up to par with a standalone media device. Like the Android software on my SmartTV is just worse in every way compared to the Google TV Streamer

If a Smart TV had decent hardware, it would be convenient to not have to connect anything else to it

[supple ether]

if I had a living room for a tv, I would want to plug it directly into my computer since it can do everything anyways

[safe dragon]

my TV is dumb and old

10/10

[supple ether]

I have a dumb tv I got off the curb

[safe dragon]

I got mine for free when I bought this place

[supple ether]

it's kinda crap but it was free, it works fine, and it has no apps

[marble jewel]

I bought a cheap smart tv for my rec room, but the wifi and/or processor is so shitty that it is barely functional

Like anything I try to watch is just constantly buffering, even stuff I host locally

All I wanted it for was to watch Jellyfin while I work out

[pliant snow]

You might need to set your jellyfin server to transcode the videos then, if the client can't handle whatever codec

[marble jewel]

I don't think it's transcoding that it's getting stuck on. The network connectivity just drops off.

[cobalt shore]

My tv is pretty old, when hubby got a new one I got the one he’d been using haha it’s definitely not a smart tv

Which is fine cuz there are enough “smart devices” around I just use it as a computer monitor anyways lmao

[worn remnant]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Limpr1L8Pss

[devout vault]

Looks like I have something to watch on my lunch break in a few minutes

[frosty echo]

I'd guess that the button is designed for non-packaged popcorn and the packaged stuff cooks quicker or something

[little furnace]

I have never seen a popcorn button on a microwave. But I do love the unfreeze functionality.

There are three words for turning from solid to liquid: thaw, melt and unfreeze. And I have no idea when to use which.

[long verge]

[marble jewel]

I’ve got a bunch of presets I never use on mine

I wonder if Soften Melt is meant for butter. I should try that one sometime.

[long verge]

I have a bunch of presets on mine but I have no idea how to use my microwave
I just use the default 800W thing, and the defrost from time to time

[dusty pollen]

it's legal to press those buttons?

I'm not convinced

[long verge]

Are people cooking things in a microwave ?

[little furnace]

Soften/Melt actually works well for butter. Or honey.

Or rock-solid ice cream.

[safe dragon]

I know what I referenced

[marble jewel]

Like... Auto Defrost. Does it have sensors or something?

How does it know

[devout vault]

No, it's to soften melts (you know, grilled cheese sandwiches with extra things)

[safe dragon]

all I know is that it doesn't work

how it achieves it not working I don't know

[little furnace]

Mine works by entering the weight and type, and it will then estimate how to increase power.

[devout vault]

✨ vibes ✨

maybe soon it'll even be based on vibe coded vibes!

[marble jewel]

I definitely would never use Popcorn, Potato, or Pizza. Those items are for the stove, oven, and oven/stove respectively.

[heavy dagger]

New quote added by irocendar as #7389 (https://discordapp.com/channels/137344473976799233/1215712021207720006/1474463282600611881)

[long verge]

Same but having to enter these makes it manuel defrost

[little furnace]

"Hello ChatGPT, I'm a microwave and I'm supposed to unfrost this pizza, what do I need to do in order to satisfy my user?"

[marble jewel]

What microwaves really need is just a single AI button /s

[devout vault]

Stoves and ovens usually come on the same appliance, right?

Why aren't they called Stovens?

[little furnace]

Not really, because it's still an automatic increase. You don't have to stay and increase manually.

[marble jewel]

I don't want to think about temperature, time or anything for that matter. Just send photo/sensor data to Chat GPT and have it decide for me.

[supple ether]

technically a stove is a range + oven

[dusty pollen]

the thing about those buttons is that the microwave company says to use them but obviously manufacturers aren't going to trust that every microwave company made them properly, so they would never suggest them, so it's easier for me to just look at the manufacturer instructions and anything that doesn't come with instructions is better done in another appliance usually anyway

[little furnace]

Because they sometimes don't, in the beginning didn't and nowadays often don't either.

[supple ether]

idk why it's called a range but it is

[dusty pollen]

a few years ago I would have qualified that with "except for heating leftovers" but nowadays air fryers are pretty good for that

[devout vault]

How dare you take my joke seriously. I can't believe this

I'm flabberghasted

[marble jewel]

Ah, I meant Range when I wrote Stove. I actually need a new one because one of the burners on the range stopped working.

[supple ether]

omg she ghasted your flabbers

[little furnace]

I'd send you a cat picture to make up for it, but he's outside.

[dusty pollen]

hold on I'll donate a pic for the cause

[devout vault]

Proof of my flabber being ghasted:

[marble jewel]

Maybe it's called a range because it's where the deer and the antelope play

[marble jewel]

I struggle to get good shots of Mr Loki here

[dusty pollen]

that's a brilliant shot

his true form. void pebble

[rain apex]

Potato

[marble jewel]

Lily on the other hand is a lot more easily photographed

[dusty pollen]

my mum says that when duke sleeps like that he looks like a little girl with pigtails who's sulking and I do see it

[cinder karma]

Adorable

[cinder karma]

Adorable!

[pliant snow]

is steam down?

[cinder karma]

Steam usually goes up actually

[pliant snow]

oh its working now

[crystal wren]

You must need to also give Ubiquiti your address as well as your phone number, because it seems fine for m-

Oh.

[safe dragon]

runescape's working just fine so no problems