programmers-off-topic

[devout vault]

Do they still believe they're on fire? If so it could still work

[dusty pollen]

I've heard them say they're just heavenly lights

[worn remnant]

something something timon and pumbaa

[devout vault]

<insert joke about flying because I don't believe in gravity>
<insert xkcd python import flight>

[devout vault]

I forgot about that until you mentioned it 😂

[dusty pollen]

no they believe there's no force involved, everything just "falls down", and if we were in a globe we would all fall off as a result

[devout vault]

One day, someone will find the Heavenly Light Switch, and the apocalypse will begin

[dusty pollen]

others believe that things fall down because the flat earth is constantly moving upwards at an acceleration of 9.81m/s

[devout vault]

I mean... given the weird way spacetime and gravity work, saying there's no force involved could be kinda vaguely somewhat maybe possibly partially correct?

[dusty pollen]

(nope. it's one of the four fundamental forces )

[devout vault]

I thought it was us falling towards the bent space time from lots of mass or something

[dusty pollen]

but they're real keen on the whole "it's called the THEORY of gravity because it's only a THEORY" thing

[dusty pollen]

that's an explanation of it as a force!

[devout vault]

ignoring the rigor required for science to reach the status of "theory"

<joke about the "theory" of them being intelligent>

[dusty pollen]

theory just doesn't mean the same thing in science, it just means a system of ideas it doesn't mean "something we have no proof of"

[devout vault]

It sounds more along the lines of a force that centrifugal force is rather than being an actual thing exerting force onto stuff.

I get it's considered a fundamental force, I just don't have my head wrapped around it fully

[dusty pollen]

science uses the "theory vs practice" meaning, not the "theory vs proven" meaning

[devout vault]

Also I'd like to point out just how many adjectives I added here

[dusty pollen]

it's a very theoretical physics thing I don't understand either because I'm not a theoretical physicist dw

and actually, nobody does! it's the fundamental force we know the least about

[devout vault]

Like it's correct in a "gross misinterpretation of things ignoring fundamental facts" way... just like all conspiracy theories (except my water dousing stars one, clearly)

Yeah I'm aware it isn't really understood

Like I've seen people throwing out the idea of gravitons and such before

But that we don't really know

[dusty pollen]

(the others are strong, weak, and electromagnetic. I have no memory of what strong and weak are and don't ask me)

[heavy dagger]

New quote added by atravita as #6439 (https://discordapp.com/channels/137344473976799233/1215712021207720006/1386769980716089345)

New quote added by atravita as #6440 (https://discordapp.com/channels/137344473976799233/1215712021207720006/1386770195875369222)

[devout vault]

(the strong one is the strongest of them all, and the weak one is the weakest of them all - they have no significant features outside of that, hence no special name)

(clearly, I'm a genius and understand everything 100% fully)

[heavy dagger]

New quote added by atravita as #6441 (https://discordapp.com/channels/137344473976799233/1215712021207720006/1386770517918351442)

[devout vault]

Don't quote that! Now you'll use it against me when I'm being mean to myself!

[dusty pollen]

(the way I had to look it up to confirm that wasn't true there's a reason I went into maths and CS, not physics)

[devout vault]

(even if it is clearly sarcastic)

[devout vault]

(I may have made it up but I was very 50/50 on it actually being the case. 😛 When I looked it up I saw them called strong/weak nuclear forces)

[cinder karma]

Guess why I quoted it lol 💖

[devout vault]

I figured 😔

[cinder karma]

Anyways

The better way to think of it is that the strong force keeps atoms together and the weak force drives them apart

Gravity is the weakest force

[sand frost]

i thought electromagnetic keeps electrons and protons hanging out together

cause + and -

[devout vault]

<insert joke about creating being harder than destroying, and entropy, and stuff like that>

Completely unrelated but I just discovered the haptic keyboard option in ios

It's nice. (Yes, I'm also that person that leaves the clacky sounds of the keyboard on)

[dusty pollen]

ios needs swipe keyboards

[crystal wren]

<insert pet peeve of every browser on iOS being Safari>

[safe dragon]

hey they're all webkit which is technically different

[devout vault]

Isn't there an option for that? I feel like I tried it once and hated it

[devout vault]

Yeah 😔

At least there's ad blocker support now

[cinder karma]

I'm thinking of nucleus only

[dusty pollen]

swipe keyboards are elite

[devout vault]

While I'm whining about phones, I miss the physical home button. And being able to touch literally anywhere on the front without triggering the touch screen (ie. the screen is not the entire side)

While the last few editions of the phone had a home "button", those are literally just vibration powered (try pressing it when your phone is out of battery - it doesn't click or move at all!).

I miss the days with the actual button, like my old iphone 5

[dusty pollen]

I miss when phones were interesting and had gimmicks built in

they're all the same now

just slightly different shapes

[worn remnant]

i enjoy buttons in general, but i 100% understand why the engineers got rid of it and probably lobbied to do so from the get-go

[devout vault]

And I still want a physical keyboard, and I don't like the Clicks (haven't tried it, but an actual dedicated number row is a requirement, and I want to use pretty cases but the clicks is part of the case, so I can't even get/make a custom case to use instead)

[cinder karma]

You should see my sewing drawer

[devout vault]

I understand, but I still hate it

There's a reason one of my DIY projects I like to think about is a custom phone

(But then I'd have to learn android)

Like, this case is just so boring

Compared to this (my current one, though obviously it doesn't sparkle that much in person)

Or my previous one (tiny screenshot because going to the product page doesn't show this one anymore, so I can only see this specific one on my orders page)

Also, the screens being near the edge means a Kirby Mouthful Mode case isn't feasible (or at least one where the face is on the screen side)

Which is an absolute travesty

[pliant snow]

i lowkey kinda want one of the keyboard cases

[devout vault]

I'd like a physical keyboard module that you fit into a physically separate case, so custom ones could be made without a bunch of tearing apart the keyboard

[worn remnant]

i would definitely consider a keyboard case. mostly i am a no-case sort of person (slippery little pill, naked robotic core, etc.)

[crystal wren]

I just hate how those keyboard cases inherently make the "device" ridiculously top heavy. It's just... it's a non-starter for me.

[devout vault]

I only care about cases for the looks 😛

[devout vault]

Hmm, good point.

Clearly we just need to make the bottom part heavier for no added benefit (besides weight balance)

Or make a custom phone

[crystal wren]

Honestly? I would probably make that decision myself if I made the thing. A bit of counterbalance would be good.

[devout vault]

I should sit down and come up with all the feature and the design I want for a custom phone

Like if I'm making one from scratch, I think I like the sort of flip phone type thing. But not like reverting to a flip phone, just the ability to close/open it sort of thing, but still have a decent sized touch screen and what not

I'd probably want a non-touch screen for when it's closed to show basic stuff like notifications

Maybe a few buttons too just in case

[cyan shadow]

I want those sliding smartphones with the slidey keyboard to come back

Or this nintendo ds looking thing

[cinder karma]

Tbh and this is my personal opinion but

I would rather have a Bluetooth keyboard case

[devout vault]

Yeah that's an option too

[devout vault]

As well as this

[cinder karma]

Oh come on quill you're too young to have the razr

[devout vault]

Also? Maybe the keyboard would be hot-swappable with a gamepad module. (Or perhaps just as an addition, I don't know)

Touch screen "joysticks" suck

[cyan shadow]

Those were a thing when I was young, you know!

I'm not that much of a baby

[crystal wren]

The Razr's back, anyway.

Kinda.

[devout vault]

My "ideal" swappable keyboard/gamepad wouldn't even need unplugging. You could like... rotate the bottom part with the keyboard 180 degrees to have the gamepad showing/usable instead

[devout vault]

No buttons, 0/10

Also, have they fixed the crease issue with foldable screens?

[cyan shadow]

I didn't have one myself though, I was given my dad's old LG smartphone when I was 12 because he got a new one and didn't have a phone at all before that

[marble jewel]

The RAZR with Mr Mobile's keyboard accessory is the closest thing you can get to a modern phone with slide in keyboard.

[crystal wren]

Good joke!

Nope.

The creases are less visible now, but...

[marble jewel]

https://youtu.be/HoSf21Arj8A?si=V_dwBjeBEvYWlh4u

[devout vault]

I googled this and the first result (not even sponsored) is Clicks. They sure have good SEO game

[cyan shadow]

If I needed to contact my parents before I got my own phone, I would either borrow a phone, use a payphone, or if I was already right outside the house, I simply bellowed from the street like a hooligan

[devout vault]

Oh, same thing

[marble jewel]

It should be no surprise that they're at the top, because not much else really exists that fill this niche anymore

[crystal wren]

I just don't want a phone with a screen I can scratch as easily as an original DS touch screen.

[cyan shadow]

At this point, if I have to choose, I'd get a Fairphone, maybe

[crystal wren]

If we somehow invent freely bendable glass, I'm getting a big foldable instantly.

And being poor for a while.

But still.

[cyan shadow]

The 6 was leaked and it looks considerably less like a brick and more like a normal phone

[cinder karma]

Fun fact: I used to be in that field

(Foldable electronics)

[cyan shadow]

In the field of bendy glass???

[cinder karma]

I'm still very meh

No, bendy electronics

[cyan shadow]

Aw, butt

[cinder karma]

My more well traveled friend sez I should visit corning new york

[cyan shadow]

It would've been fun if you were the bendy glass industry for the sole motive of being able to knit with it

[cinder karma]

Y'all forget I'm an actual electrical engineer

[crystal wren]

We do?

[marble jewel]

Wait, I thought you were a professional Knitter

[cinder karma]

Smh

[crystal wren]

What is electrical engineering if not knitting circuit traces?

[devout vault]

Wow their website loads slow (by modern standards anyways)

But seeing as they don't have the US listed as a country choice, maybe the servers are just far away

Is there anything special about the fairphone? Looks like another generic smartphone to me

[cyan shadow]

They're Dutch, yes

Hang on my Dutch isn't good enough to read the blurb

[lethal walrus]

oh that explains it

[crystal wren]

Their site's all in English for me?

[lethal walrus]

everything seems to be in the html

[cyan shadow]

It loaded in Dutch for me

Regional bollocks

[devout vault]

They have an english option, it defaulted to dutch for me and I had to switch it

[lethal walrus]

only 18kb thought it'd be more

[cyan shadow]

Anyway, their whole shtick is transparency in the supply chain, conflict free and with respect for the right to repair

[devout vault]

Wow, that's tiny by today's standards. Why didn't they use a bajillion libraries like everyone else?

[lethal walrus]

they use a couple

[devout vault]

Hmm, make sense.

Still another boring generic smartphone for the end product though (besides the right to repair I guess)

[cyan shadow]

They also offer a de-googled Android version for their phone, which I like

I can do with boring if I get to break free from the big G's clutches as much as possible

[worn remnant]

almost every phone is a boring generic 6"-ish rectangle of screen with three enormous camera bulges on the back

[cyan shadow]

I like that the battery can pop out if you need to pop it out to get at what's behind it

[rain apex]

Degoogled is sadly very inconvenient for me

Lots of bank things over there

[devout vault]

I looked into this and really want it. 😔 Alas, foldable screen (and money problems I guess)

[cinder karma]

Yeah if I wanted degoogled I'd just buy a Huawei lol

[devout vault]

All they had to do was make it a DS-style when open! (I'm sure the software compatibility would be fantastic for that)

[cinder karma]

(It is, actually, inconvenient lol)

[cyan shadow]

It still works with downloading playstore apps, by de-Googled I mean it doesn't force you into Google's ecosystem for everything else

You can pick which store you download from, looks like

[rain apex]

Oh but not even pixel does that

[devout vault]

I hate the modern camera bulges. The old phone cameras were fine for my purposes. 😛

Also my previous camera seemed better (iPhone 8), when I try to do something close up everything is really blurry. That might just be my case though

[rain apex]

I side load random stuff with f droid

[cyan shadow]

But the phone doesn't need to be logged into a google account

[crystal wren]

I mean no Android phone needs to be, but they sure as hell try to make you.

[worn remnant]

this is the most important feature for me

[cyan shadow]

The whole thing is more focused on preventing Google's data collection via the phone

[rain apex]

I used to have a pre sanctions huawei and would have just gotten another one but alas sanctions

[cinder karma]

Also, wasn't Apple forced into right to repair?

[cinder karma]

(Ditto)

[cyan shadow]

They haven't implemented it in full yet

[sand frost]

I haven't been keeping track

[cinder karma]

It's also fucking annoying being American in China

[sand frost]

I still take all my devices to the apple store

[cinder karma]

And not being able to pay for shit because Americans can't use wechat pay

[sand frost]

I've heard that it's super annoying, yeah

my current pro strat there is to not go to china

[cinder karma]

I can alipay but alipay is the more minor one

[devout vault]

(Also, even if apple is forced into right to repair, you can bet money on them doing the bare minimum they can get away with (or maybe even less))

[cinder karma]

Anyways

[devout vault]

Like the separate app store thing which still requires apple to approve your apps if I remember right

[cinder karma]

I can and do my own phone repairs

But it's me, lol

[worn remnant]

malicious compliance will 100% be involved

[cinder karma]

And I can't do much other than replace parts

Beyond that...well

[crystal wren]

The most I've ever had to do is a battery replacement, and they're... honestly perfectly okay.

[sand frost]

I think I need a new battery on my phone

I'm never sure when I should give up on a phone vs. keep getting stuff fixed

[crystal wren]

The one I had to had become, as people call it, a spicy pillow.

[sand frost]

lol that is no good when the spicy pillow emerges

[crystal wren]

It made the replacement much easier, because it had removed the back 50% of the way for me already.

[sand frost]

my battery max is 74% it looks like when it should be above 80% i think??

[safe dragon]

in my experience it essentially just doesn't really exist

[cinder karma]

Let it drain all the way and charge fully again

It might recalibrate

But tbh I don't care of battery life

[sand frost]

My phone is like 3.5 years old

[devout vault]

Up until I moved I had been using my handmedown iPhone 8 from my mom 😛

Only got a new one as a "why not" sort of thing since I was switching to my own phone plan

[cinder karma]

I'm only rarely away from a charger

[sand frost]

I mainly care if I'm hypothetically on vacation in a foreign country

[crystal wren]

That's what battery banks are for!

[cinder karma]

I have battery banks for that

[devout vault]

But I wonder if it would if it weren't for the hoops apple makes you jump through

[sand frost]

I have a battery bank but it's like 10 years old

[cinder karma]

Jinx you owe me a 7up

[sand frost]

I think it also is on its last legs

[worn remnant]

i've been using my current phone since 2017 and it was terrible when i got it!

[safe dragon]

well yeah. If it had been like fdroid on the android side it would've been great

[sand frost]

and tbh it does get heavy carrying a battery bank around in my purse

[cinder karma]

Huh, mine is tiny and phone sized

[crystal wren]

I will give you my favourite 7-Up.

[sand frost]

my phone before this one was an SE or a 6 I think

so going to a 13 was a big leap

[sand frost]

well, i think mine being 10 years old is maybe the key issue here

it doesn't charge so well anymore

and it only can recharge my phone like 2x

it's about as large a phone volumetrically but I think a bit heavier

I checked it's only 9 years old!! very young

Also I got an email about it being recalled 2 weeks ago

I feel like it being recalled 9 years after purchase is a bit late

hmm ok i read this recall notice and maaaaaaybe i should listen

[devout vault]

(Bonus for this: Two apps showing at once!
...Can android even do that?)

[safe dragon]

yeah

you can split screen apps

max of 2 tho

[devout vault]

Also, while we're at it, remember the macbook Touch Bar? Let's include that for app switching (one per screen)

(Basically like the task bar bahvior on windows, or whatever they call the semi-equivalent thing on mac)

[cyan shadow]

android's been doing splitscreen for a few years now, yeah

[safe dragon]

pretty sure my samsung galaxy S6 had it at launch

which was... 10 years ago

[devout vault]

And while we're adding extraneous things, let's add multiple USB C ports - one per side

[safe dragon]

I agree

[devout vault]

You could add an extra display just by plugging it into one of the sides (with some extra bits so it's not held on solely by the USB C connector 😛 )

Given this would be a just-for-me product and not a mass produced one, I'd love to actually do this if I had tons of money

[cinder karma]

I never know how to get onto split screen mode on my phone

About the only time I manage it I do kt on accident

Anyways

[devout vault]

Huh, Hytale is dead. (https://hytale.com/news/2025/6/a-difficult-update-about-hytale)

Guess HC is coming out first now for sure? 😛

[safe dragon]

not surprised

[devout vault]

At this point neither am I

[safe dragon]

does suck

[devout vault]

I'd love to take a peek at an alternate timeline though (specifically a non-Riot one, since I can't imagine the overall impact would be positive there even if it still came out with Riot)

[safe dragon]

now the creator of flecs doesn't have a big game to market his ECS library with

[devout vault]

I forgot they used it.

No worries flecs creator, when my game comes out one day you can advertise that my game was made for it. (Technically doesn't use flecs, but the plan is to switch to it when I get back to it... though technically it'd be flecs.net)

[safe dragon]

go make sander happy

[marble jewel]

I'm surprised by how surprised some people are about this. This completely meets the definition of vaporware, and other than Duke Nukem Forever, when has a game like this ever actually been released

[devout vault]

I actually had hope up until the engine rewrite (and then the riot acquistion felt it was gonna sour whatever might've released, though I can't recall if that was before or after Riot)

[marble jewel]

My issue has been that fans have state as a matter of fact that Hytale is better than Minecraft in every way without anything to show for it

Despite all the things you can criticize Minecraft for, they set the bar high, and not only had to match Minecraft's fun level, but exceed it to meet the minimum expectations of its fanbase

[devout vault]

I think it had the potential to be better in some ways, but yeah. And the keyword being "potential", since you wouldn't expect them to release with everything at launch (and I don't mean I'd want the live service early access model, but like, there are games that are complete experiences on launch and then get additional content later)

[dusty pollen]

not knowing literally anything about this game, comparing an upcoming game to minecraft seems like a bad idea

[marble jewel]

It's origins are with Minecraft server operators and modders

[devout vault]

This was the original trailer which blew up way more than they expected: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o77MzDQT1cg

[marble jewel]

So it was supposed to have a lot of input from Minecraft fans about what they thought Minecraft needed

[devout vault]

But yeah it originated from the Hypixel people (who run the largest Java edition server in the world, as far as I know - at least they used to be biggest)

(The Hypixel server isn't a survival world type deal, it's a bunch of minigames basically. And a more MMO-like game is on there nowadays too)

[marble jewel]

At one point at least they picked up some of the biggest names in Minecraft Modding. Jellysquid of Sodium fame was part of their game studio.

[lethal walrus]

though it does have a survival thing

[devout vault]

Oh? I didn't know that.

I knew a bunch of the server devs moved over though. And that like a year or two ago Hypixel (the user - the server and the game studio are named after this guy) made a new indie game studio

[devout vault]

I remember them having private survival worlds at one point in beta, didn't know it still was a thing.

But that's still a bit different than what you might expect when you see a server with 53k people online without knowing minigame servers and such exist

(Yes, there are over 53k people online right now. There were times when they had over 100k)

[lethal walrus]

yeah 1.8 as a whole has been declining a bit

[devout vault]

I imagine it's mainly because Bedrock edition gets more new users nowadays since that's what MS mainly promotes

[ivory shadow]

Silly people, all they had to do was release the game from the trailer and do incremental updates. The Minecraft community is primed to do incremental updates.

But they decided to lock themselves in development purgatory instead.

[devout vault]

Yeah. I saw one person on a reddit post about it dying say they knew someone who worked there and they were prepared to do an alpha/beta until Riot bought them.

So, standard "my uncle works at nintendo" grain of salt, but it seems very plausible (especially if Riot pushed for things that would've necessitated the engine rewrite).

The game director (or I guess "former", now) posted on twitter that it wasn't feature creep or development hell, but that they just ran out of time. (https://x.com/JLtZD/status/1937229938740134077)

But like... if you ran out of time, isn't one of those two things basically the only ways that could happen, considering it's been in development for so long? (The original post announcing it on the server forums in December 2018 says they've been working on it "for the last several years ".)

John Hendricks (@JLtZD)

I can't go into much more detail than what is in the announcement from Noxy. It wasn't feature creep or development hell. The team did a great job reducing scope as well as clarifying vision and process over the past 18 months (my time as EP). Every announcement I made on behalf

X · Jun 23, 2025, 7:23 PM

[ivory shadow]

You can't say it's not development hell when you decide to literally restart your engine from scratch

And then a year later you shut down

[red crest]

didn't they do that twice

[devout vault]

I forgot it happened twice

[red crest]

im more with Matt in that I am 0% surprised by this news

[devout vault]

I only remember the ~2022 one

Yeah I'm not surprised, but it still makes me sad for what it could've been

[ivory shadow]

Maybe this announcement will make me finally do a proper playthrough of Vintage Story

[devout vault]

I've been meaning to try that

Potentially rope one of my brothers into an MP playthrough

[supple ether]

So hytale is dead? I thought they did another announcement like last year or something

That's a real shame, it looked like a really cool concept

[ivory shadow]

Also, Enshrouded scratches a Minecraft building itch for me in a way. It's not perfect by any means. You can only build in certain areas you've put a fire down in, and there's not any sort of machinery like redstone or the like, but for just being creative you can make some cool things.

I do miss making crazy farms and stuff though...

I have friends who hate base building and just want exploration and combat. Finding a game that gives us all what we want is rough.

[marble jewel]

If anything, I'm more interested in Minecraft-like games that make bigger changes away from the core Minecraft experience

Like Core Keeper scratches a bit of that Minecraft itch but in a completely different way

[supple ether]

Mostly I was excited for hytale because it seemed like it was going to do a blending of conventional mmo stuff and sandbox building

[marble jewel]

Games that try too hard to be like Minecraft end up just being not-Minecraft in a bad way

[supple ether]

Trove did that, admittedly, but kinda badly, and it got sunk by greed

[devout vault]

Yeah, this is why I found the Terrafirmacraft mod really interesting way back when (or I guess Vintage Story nowadays)

I didn't like playing TFC, but it seemed like a fun concept

[ivory shadow]

I wonder if there's a mod to make Vintage Story less grindy/TFCy

[devout vault]

Probably, I saw tons of mods

[ivory shadow]

I feel like they have a good solid engine but they're making the type of game most people don't like

[devout vault]

("tons" relatively speaking)

They have official modding support after all

[marble jewel]

Yeah, if I wanted something like Minecraft but different, there are thousands of modded experiences to choose from

[devout vault]

A lot of them still stick super close to at least a few existing things

TFC did to some extent too, but it felt like less so than just about every other modpack

[red crest]

thats pretty much my personal experience too whenever i see these other minecraft-inspired games like vintage story and such. after seeing the hytale stuff earlier today i checked a few of them out but ultimately decided "i kinda just wanna play modded minecraft instead"

(also i did actually like playing TFC.... for like, a short while. defnitely didnt last as long as most of my playthrus)

[devout vault]

I finally played modded MC yesterday, though it was basically just my normal "explore with my cheated in backpack until it and my inventory are completely full" at the beginning of every pack

("every pack" barring exceptions like skyblock)

[red crest]

i almost went looking for a modpack earlier before i told myself i should catch up on mod stuff first

[marble jewel]

I'll probably be building a new Vanilla+ modpack this weekend for my upcoming 1.21.6 playthrough

[devout vault]

MC Eternal 2 just came out, so that's the one I did.

MCE1 was one I played with my siblings a while back

Though I did add some things, like Spectrum (since I've been wanting to try that for a while)

[marble jewel]

I always start with a well-supported optimization modpack, and then add my qol/tech mods like Carpet and Masa Mods

[red crest]

i just look for a pack with the highest minecraft version and also Create and im set /hj

i did use Spectrum last time though, its fun

[ivory shadow]

There are two types of Carpet mod players:

1. people who are gonna build the craziest thing you've ever seen
2. people who watch tech build youtubers and think "I'm gonna be just like them"

[devout vault]

See, I often need some sort of structure, like quests (which you kinda have to make yourself) 😛

It's why I'll probably end up actually playing with some less-sandboxy pack, like sky/stone/ocean block, instead

[marble jewel]

I want to do a full-fledged Create-focused play-through at some point. I've done kitchen-sink packs before where I got to do a bit in every mod.

[marble jewel]

Most of what I do with Carpet is load fake players for AFK farms

[devout vault]

I want to as well since my Create Hater ™ -ness as slightly declined lately (probably due to seeing some of the 6.0 stuff)

[ivory shadow]

That's my least favorite thing to do with Carpet. I'd much rather get modded blocks and items that replicate the precise bit of player-ness that I'm trying to take advantage of

[devout vault]

I'm not super familiar with carpet, but looking at it, I'd prefer things that feel a bit more integrated into the game

[ivory shadow]

Like create has a way to player kill things automatically with powered blocks. There are plenty of mods for making spawners always active, rather than only when a player is nearby.

[red crest]

(my main problem with Create is that a lot of the stuff i love about it and would love to use in a playthrough would be a lot more fun if there were other people around to even see it...)

[devout vault]

Yeah, like, the stuff that lets you make a shop is kinda useless in SP 😛

[red crest]

im also not familiar with Carpet and looking at it briefly the last few minutes im not even really sure what this is

[ivory shadow]

I don't know if Create has an always on spawner thing, but I wouldn't be surprised.

[red crest]

it seems like its just like. command blocks+?

[ivory shadow]

Carpet is mostly a mod to help vanilla plus players with optimization and debugging and stuff.

The people building the craziest vanilla farms use it

[red crest]

"vanilla"

im also in the "id rather get modded blocks" camp

i like tangible things, not invisible effects

[marble jewel]

Carpet mod is mostly a tool, in my opinion. It can do things like measure the output rate of your farms, it has some overlays to help you determine if you meet the conditions for certain farms like Iron/Breeder when you're designing farms from scratch, and it can summon virtual players that can perform simple actions like left/right click repeatedly or holding.

[ivory shadow]

Yeah, the idea is that it isn't changing game mechanics, but like I said, being more debug tools and stuff

[marble jewel]

The dev behind Carpet got hired by Mojang a long time ago

[cinder karma]

New quest for casey:

[devout vault]

I saw scripts on the carpet repo for replicating modded stuff

[red crest]

(unrelated to Carpet, but id also like to shoutout the Exposure mod which is delightfully charming to use imo)

[devout vault]

Didn't look much but did see one called angel block

[cinder karma]

Build a 4 bit adder in Minecraft

[devout vault]

That doesn't sound too hard (or interesting, sorry 😛 )

[marble jewel]

Scarpet scripting was kind of a weird side project. I don't consider that to be a big focus in Carpet, but yeah it is there.

I think most of what Carpet is used for are the rules and commands

[devout vault]

...I just saw that mod for the first time yesterday.

There was a sepia photo in a village chest and I was like "huh", and after you mentioned this I looked at the mod page and then cross referenced MCE2 modlist ands ure enough, that's what it is 😂

[red crest]

its a cute mod!!

[marble jewel]

How about a 1Hz computer built in Minecraft https://youtu.be/tDxKhiJfgYk?si=W5eArF3ii0VzYUqf

[devout vault]

One thing I like about create is it gives you tools to make things instead of magic blocks that do it all themself. I do feel like it takes a bit too far in some respects (considering things like furnaces exist in vanilla), but it does seem a bit more fitting than many other mods (even ones that do multiblocks).

It's kinda what I find interesting about redstone in general. And also why the mods that add AND gates and timers and such in single block forms, while nice, seem to take a bit away from the game.

I've had a similar idea re: the AND gate thing recently, but instead of it being premade, the player still has to build it the first time. Like you build it, and then squish it into a block. and you can replicate the squished version (still needing all materials, it's not cheaper, just smaller).

...so basically ICs but for MC

[marble jewel]

Here's an older one I remember seeing. Someone built Minecraft in Minecraft https://youtu.be/-BP7DhHTU-I?si=TMBKk3kC265CU7fj

[devout vault]

I love seeing these things, even if they aren't done in survival.

I'm not sure of many that end up being made in survival. The closest I can think of is two things EthosLab did - Wilson (basically an in-world tamagatchi, though of course you couldn't take it with you), and the storage nexus (I know he used bit decoders or something since the selection system was using hexadecimal via buttons)

[marble jewel]

I remember there being a mod that let you build in a room, and that room was represented by a single block where it could accept input/output

[devout vault]

This also kinda goes back to how I don't really like the sudden jump from chest monster storage to digital storage terminal

[ivory shadow]

Like you build it, and then squish it into a block. and you can replicate the squished version (still needing all materials, it's not cheaper, just smaller).

...so basically ICs but for MC

Made me think of this old mod. Admittedly there are a few mods like this. https://www.curseforge.com/minecraft/mc-mods/super-circuit-maker

[devout vault]

Compact Machines?

~~I assume you don't mean my chunk-in-a-jar which I never released but had features planned for that https://spacechase0.com/mods/minecraft/outdated/chunk-in-a-jar/ ~~

[marble jewel]

Yeah, Compact Machines is what I was thinking of

[devout vault]

There's a modpack around that mod - Compact Claustrophobia

[ivory shadow]

Honestly I'm not sure I'm a fan of how Create is handling inventory, since you can just build a giant box and stuff items into it and have a frog magically pull things out? Which adds latency to item retrieval but doesn't meaningfully change the "all your items are just in one generic thing"

[devout vault]

Yeah. I think it's an improvement over jumping straight to digital storage, but still not perfect

[marble jewel]

I may be stuck in my ways, but AE2 is the only storage mod I need

[ivory shadow]

I'm a big fan of drawers.

[devout vault]

I like it (at least AE1), but the jump is still a bit too much for me

[red crest]

the latency to item retrieval is why i like Create, tbh

[supple ether]

I like having things in one place because it's really annoying to have to remember where everything is

[ivory shadow]

I'd always use a drawer controller with a whatever-the-bus-was-called in AE2/RS and just store all my bulk items in individual drawers while a disk or two were used for "random stuff"

[red crest]

i just like things that look like they do things

[supple ether]

It kinda reminds me of old-school logistics pipes

[red crest]

the lag pipes...

[ivory shadow]

Drawers are still peak item storage to me.

[devout vault]

This is all also a reason why I really find Integrated Dynamics interesting (minus the terminals addon, which admittedly I would use but like kinda defeats the point slightly)

[cinder karma]

So do I

[devout vault]

<buildcraft items-popping-out-when-container-is-full flashbacks>

But yeah, those just feel funner than the instantaneous things nowadays

[red crest]

big clunky looking mechanical sets of things, yes please

[crystal wren]

Drawers are fantastic to use with AE2's... "sector size" I suppose you could call it for item storage. Less so with RS, but I still use 'em for certain things. Bars with compressing drawers mainly.

[heavy dagger]

New quote added by atravita as #6442 (https://discordapp.com/channels/137344473976799233/1215712021207720006/1386822973117169766)

[cinder karma]

Steampunk keyboard

[devout vault]

One of my mod ideas is basically to design a storage/logistics thing that builds from initial-game-chest-monster up to the more standard digital storage stuff but in a much more gradual and "earned" way

[ivory shadow]

(Now I'm thinking about all the logistics and crafting and automation stuff I could put in a game if I am making a game.)

[supple ether]

They're great for things you commonly use or have lots of, but when you start collecting all sorts of random modded gubbins in tiny quantities, they stop being as useful

[cinder karma]

Alternative joke: three windows in vim

[devout vault]

I've thought about that for my main game project but not sure how to fit it into that game, especially since it's 2d (which is possibly and has been done (Factorio, anyone?), sure, but does require more careful thought)

Heck I've thought about it for SDV mods

Back when my tech mod and intial moon mod were gonna be the same mod

[ivory shadow]

Well, my current game idea is a futuristic post apocalyptic kinda setting, so it could definitely have automation and electricity and stuff.

[supple ether]

I thought about doing a joja-themed logistics thing with drones but the idea seemed way too ambitious

[devout vault]

I'm half tempted to make this build on the Integrated Dynamics stuff as an addon mod, but I'm unsure how I'd implement the "it takes time to move things" phase into it

[devout vault]

Mine isn't so much setting problems (magic, who cares) but gameplay loop problems. While it has sandbox elements, it's not as core as Minecraft. (You can think of it like Stardew, there are definitely plenty of common bits there)

I also haven't used Integrated Dynamics for a real playthrough yet. I've played a little with it in a creative world, and there were some things about the variable cards which seemed cumbersome (even if I loved them conceptually)

[ivory shadow]

Yeah, the game loop is the problem.

[devout vault]

In addition to that mod, I've got two other integrated dynamics based mod ideas 😅

[ivory shadow]

If nothing else, making a way for players to automate the gathering of resources and construction of consumables would be good

Like, no need to go scavenging for ammunition for your guns, you can set up a factory that produces ammo for you. Or that charges batteries. That sort of thing.

[devout vault]

There's one mainly intended for MP, but essentially allows defining an "API" for your network for others to use without having full read/write access.

The other is crazy and basically way to do AR type stuff with ID

(Preferably with Integrated Scripting, or a potential web assembly version that I want but would need to make a custom build for despite being fairly trivial to add)

(But technically you could do it with variable cards too)

The main concern with the AR type stuff is any sort of realtime interaction would be less than ideal because of server latency

And all but a few of my mod ideas are sizable enough (not a high bar to be honest) for me to want to make my C#-to-Java thing first

But back to the storage/logistics stuff, I want the player to have to make it themself to some extent (without complex programming menus and such), not a magic terminal block that you craft and forget

My whims are so easily influenced.

Back when we were talking about hytale I was thinking about maybe popping on hypixel and trying some of the newer minigames and stuff.

Now I'm thinking about wanting to make a logistics MC mod 😂

[cinder karma]

Fine

Make me a floating point unit

In Minecraft

[devout vault]

That does sound harder since I never learned about FPUs down to the logic gate lervel in college!

Still not interesting though 😛

[cinder karma]

Smh

What's interesting to you

[devout vault]

It changes every 10-30 minutes

[devout vault]

New dumb idea for this: It can't replicate the squished version, it can only squish existing contraptions.

The mod also adds a piston version that can move tile entity blocks (including attached to slime blocks), as well as a block placer (+editer for things like adjusting repeater delay).

Basically, to mass produce squished ICs, you're gonna need to build a "3d printer" that can keep remake it, full size and in-world, to be squished

[cinder karma]

Squished integrated circuits?

Wasn't aware they were squishy

[devout vault]

Compressed would be a better word, but squished is funner

[rain apex]

When u invoke a C# event when exactly does the callback happen

Is it as if you iter through some delegates n called them

[cinder karma]

This is suspiciously on topic chue

[devout vault]

On topic meaning actually related to the channel's name, or on topic meaning belongs anywhere but this channel in practice

(I assume the former since SDV wasn't mentioned)

[rain apex]

Hey I'm asking a c# question to the programming channel no bulli

tbf i don't do c# outside of modding but i did wanna just check my understanding of how events work

They r not like js promises or whatever right

[cinder karma]

They are not

[cinder karma]

This is the default behavior but you can indeed override it

[safe dragon]

I'd be lying if I said I understood C# events

it feels like one of the most unnatural to use parts of the entire language

[rain apex]

yea they r weird

[safe dragon]

I've used it a few times but I try to stay away from it

[rain apex]

i feel like i would have invented a List<Actions> thing to use eventually tho

[devout vault]

What's weird about them?

[rain apex]

i just dont like that u += and -= with these

but only sometimes...

[devout vault]

Ah, operator overloading crimes

[safe dragon]

yeah adding and subtracting to an event is just bizarre

[devout vault]

There's a lot of fun ones in C++ land (even in the STL - the iostream stuff is so dumb)

[rain apex]

if it was just event.Add and event.Remove i'd be like sgtm

[safe dragon]

it's been ages since I last used them but from what I remember it's also impossible to query if anything is actually listening to the event or how many

it's very opaque

[rain apex]

what can u use instead

[cinder karma]

You can define your own event manager

CaseyCore does it

[devout vault]

It what

[cinder karma]

Yesish. There isn't an api but

[devout vault]

Oh, do you mean the SpaceEvents stuff?

[cinder karma]

Yes!

[devout vault]

I wouldn't quite call that an event manager but I guess it works

[cinder karma]

I swear I copied you when I was making my weak event manager?

Git commits says this is three years ago though

[rain apex]

are u extending from EventHandler still

[devout vault]

SpaceEvents is just a static class with a bunch of event EventHandler<EventArgsMeow> Meow;

When I think of event manager I think more along the lines of SMAPI's which handles more stuff itself in a centralized object (and has the priority system for example - fun fact, I PRed that!), or even the MC Forge event bus

[devout vault]

(I remember seeing tons of operator overloadnig crimes on a post on the SFML forums ages ago, but I can't find it again. 😔 )

[cinder karma]

Also chue are you a 🐍

A 🐍 is full of operator overrides and fun ones

[devout vault]

(It was something along the lines of: window / sprite / texture / filepath, or something similarly absurd)

[safe dragon]

[devout vault]

(Including stuff involving network access)

[cinder karma]

Oh yeah that's how pathlib works

[devout vault]

I'm not talking about pure file paths, I think that's reasonable

[safe dragon]

I feel like I'm being told about some secret hidden reflection strats or something

[cinder karma]

You're talking to modders and former modder

Stupid reflection bullshit is expected

[devout vault]

I mean as a replacement for something like:

FilePath filepath = blah;
Texture tex( filepath );
Sprite spr( tex );
window.Draw( spr);

[safe dragon]

I was hoping I was wrong

[devout vault]

There are some event handler functions that can only be called on the same class or something? At least the way I remember it

I think GetInvocationList might be it? (If my memory about this is remotely correct)

Or maybe I'm just thinking of object.MemberwiseClone

[cinder karma]

I love how | works in Django

[safe dragon]

I don't think I've ever used GetInvocationList outside some unit tests before

some fucked up Blazor stuff I don't remember

[devout vault]

I was using it to pass the actual event calling code to a utility method.
https://github.com/spacechase0/StardewValleyMods/blob/develop/SpaceCore/Events/SpaceEvents.cs#L54
Mainly to avoid writing the loop + individual try/catches for each one: https://github.com/spacechase0/StardewValleyMods/blob/develop/SpaceShared/Util.cs#L212

[safe dragon]

homegrown pubsub

[cinder karma]

C# should have weak events by default smh

[devout vault]

Yeah

[safe dragon]

I don't know what that means but I agree

[devout vault]

I've abused them not being weak before, that's for sure

Like in Jump Over and Magic (before Pathos refactored them when he took over maintenance for a bit)

[cinder karma]

It's the variant of events that relies on the weak force crumble

Please try to keep up

Yes. They are mildly radioactive

[devout vault]

We have strong and weak events, when are we getting gravitational and electromagnetic events 😔

[safe dragon]

it just reminds me of weak references but events for some reason

[cinder karma]

(That's what it is.)

[devout vault]

That's what atra means I thnik

C# events keep a strong reference, preventing garbage collection

[safe dragon]

ah yeah I hate that about them

feels like half the time I've tried to use events I ended up creating a memory leak

[devout vault]

Oh, apparently Pathos didn't fix Jump Over, only Magic?

[rain apex]

i am but i thought i escaped (i did not)

[devout vault]

Ex. (NSFRP - not safe for real programmers)
https://github.com/spacechase0/StardewValleyMods/blob/develop/JumpOver/Mod.cs#L65
https://github.com/spacechase0/StardewValleyMods/blob/develop/JumpOver/Framework/Jump.cs#L109

With Magic, the spells with non-instant effects worked similarly when I made them, but Pathos introduced IActiveEffect which does things properly

[cinder karma]

I'm a 🐍

[devout vault]

Still unsure what that means in this context

[cinder karma]

Python

[safe dragon]

tf do you mean jump does sdv have jumping

[devout vault]

With my mod it does!

(Technically it does already, but it's only used for events I think)

[steel kraken]

The scared jump animation thing used in places like community centre intro

[safe dragon]

considering the velocity check... if the stars align, could you double jump if you repeat at the exact peak of the jump?

[safe dragon]

I do know that

I've seen it

[cinder karma]

Lol https://github.com/atravita-mods/StardewMods/blob/8b628860030e16b6a143c70f9742844aad06685b/SinZsEventTester/Framework/FastForwardHandler.cs#L24

[devout vault]

...probably?

Though the collision stuff would probably break horrifically

I thought I had a jump gif somewhere but can't find it

[steel kraken]

So that's why it still has sin in the internal mod name

[devout vault]

I love crime

[cinder karma]

I stole the original code from you and never bothered changing anything

Also

[devout vault]

(talking about mod crimes, but posted just that because I'm sure people would love to quote that)

[cinder karma]

I'm not sure it's a sin?

[devout vault]

(also "be <gay/trans/etc.> do crime" )

[devout vault]

Hmm. "Sin" feels more like a moral failing, while "crime" is more a legal one. Often they overlap (murder), but not always (jaywalking).

So "crime" feels more appropriate in this case

[marble jewel]

I do my own "event" stuff in my shared common project so that it's more like Pub-Sub instead of C# Events https://github.com/LeFauxMatt/FauxCore/blob/develop/FauxCommon/Services/EventManager.cs

[cinder karma]

I also don't see how is a crime?

[devout vault]

I know nothing about pubsub

[devout vault]

Not a crime, but closer to crime than sin, was what I was trying to say

[marble jewel]

For my mods at least, anything can subscribe to any event, and anything can publish any event through a common service denoted by the type.

So I can just be like Publish<SomeUniqueEvent>(new SomeUniqueEvent()) globally, and anywhere else do Subscribe<SomeUniqueEvent>(MyHandler)

[cinder karma]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Publish–subscribe_pattern

Apparently

[devout vault]

Unrelated, but: <insert "days since warthunder leak" meme>

[cinder karma]

Are these weak or strong?

[devout vault]

I imagine that depends on how much exercise/training the publisher has done

[cinder karma]

Smh

[safe dragon]

pubsub is nice

I like pubsub

shout-out to MQTT

[cinder karma]

Meanwhile I'm over here without <<= and sad

[devout vault]

Pubsub sounds like the name of a pub that exclusively sells subs

[cinder karma]

Tbh I thought it was like pubmed

[devout vault]

Bit shift assignment operator?

[cinder karma]

Yeahhhh

You'd think I would get it in verilog but noooo

[devout vault]

(re:hytale and vintage story earlier - the main VS dev had worked on Hytale?????)

[steel kraken]

Mqtt 3.1.1 is a cute protocol, a bit more annoying once you had qos2 to the mix

Mqtt 5 is a more complex beast, and yet both are extremely simple compared to amqp

[ivory shadow]

I like pubsub a lot, but I hate scaling it

[steel kraken]

My last work project was heavily built with them, though we used Azure paas services for it

I also have written 3 or so mqtt client implementations as I wanted to understand it better, two in Lua and one in typescript

[cinder karma]

I mean if you want me to take your name off it I will lol

[devout vault]

Everyone loves when people change unique mod IDs

People are clamoring for me to change the unique IDs of SpaceCore (and to a lesser extent these days, JA) to match my new username

...darn, that's a good idea for april fools. (Though it'd be a post in making mods rather than an actual release)

[tranquil grove]

I've been wanting to ID change for a while, though I haven't decided on what to use yet
let's start clamoring for aliasing

[cinder karma]

Got it

[devout vault]

Which part?

[cinder karma]

Randomly changing thr unqiueid

[devout vault]

Also, aliasing would make it less fun

[cinder karma]

But it's okay

[devout vault]

(Fun in the dwarf fortress sense)

[devout vault]

Each update has a new unique ID, that's a wonderful idea

[tranquil grove]

the mod part of the ID, not my name
(either Esca.FTM to make trigger actions/etc easier to type, or a more accurate name for FTM)

[devout vault]

(But then that reduces the fun jokes about using FTM vs MTF for custom monster spawning 😔 )

The shorter part is reasonable I guess, but I feel like aliases would make more sense for that

[tranquil grove]

(checking MTF's status on the mod compat list)

[devout vault]

(I live in a timeline where all my mods magically updated themselves)

[tranquil grove]

but yeah, my current plan is just to rename the nexus page to like "FTM Spawn Framework (formerly Farm Type Manager)" for search's sake

[devout vault]

(Not just for game versions, but for bugs and stuff too)

[devout vault]

I'll start referring to the mod as FTMSF, then. (Or maybe just FSF)

[tranquil grove]

I wanted to do a remake as Spawn Anything Framework™ (-> SAF pronounced sapph-ic ) but even renaming FTM at this point is kinda user-hostile

[devout vault]

How about a name that still fits the acronym

"Frequently Triggering Manifestations"

I think I've suggested another name before too

[tranquil grove]

my best effort at that was Framework That Makes things spawn

(also apologies for derailing into on-topic, I feel like I do that a lot )

[devout vault]

Apparently it was in our DMs Esca. Our most recent one, even.

Features That Manifest

(There seems to be a trend with manifesting here)

[tranquil grove]

oh right my brain shut off for a few months and I lost track of those ideas again

[devout vault]

I haven't checked our DMs in ages either 😛 I only checked it now because I couldn't find it from a search of my messages on this server

[tranquil grove]

but yeah, unless nexus suddenly adds redirect pages or something, I'm gonna stick to minimal changes & a too-long title

[devout vault]

My SDV brain has been mostly shut off for half a year at this point

[devout vault]

Wouldn't this be more of a SMAPI side thing, not Nexus?

[tranquil grove]

ID aliasing or some such from SMAPI is one part of it, but if I remove "FTM" or "Farm Type Manager" on nexus, people will get lost

(people being me if it wasn't my own mod)

[devout vault]

Hmm, true. Guess you'll have to use one of my brilliant new acronyms then 😛

[cinder karma]

Clearly I should just pick arbitrary unicorn characters

Like Prince

[cinder karma]

It's fine because no one, not the least me, actually expects me to successfully update a mod

[steel kraken]

I think the mod compatibility list can technically be used to map old uniqueid to new uniqueid, but not something to use often

[cinder karma]

Interesting.

The book I'm listening to talks about using your non depressed self to help out your depressed seld

[steel kraken]

ah it can override updatekey, localversion and remoteVersion but doesn't actually care about uniqueid

which I guess makes sense, the update check logic doesn't actually care about uniqueid, its the updateky that does that

Can always use my crimes against pathos humanity to have your mod have both uniqueid's at the same time https://github.com/SinZ163/StardewMods/blob/main/SinZationalSixSupport/ModEntry.cs

[devout vault]

"This lets us find out that we are ourselves" is a fascinating statement out of context

[steel kraken]

like how its semi annoying to get to the SVE page as it doesn't have SVE in its name

[tranquil grove]

maybe
I'd also considered including a second mod with the old ID and sharing content packs by API/reflection

my latest half-thought-out data models barely involve FTM's ID anyway, so it may be unnecessary

[steel kraken]

the original goal of that mod was to pretend to be obsolete mods so that dependency checks would pass, and I could facade their mod API to point to the vanilla functionality, and do the assetrequested event loop for old custom assets to do the correct vanilla patch instead
but after doing the hard part of getting SMAPI to accept it, never got around to building the actual facades

most of the code came from the prior lua and python mod loaders which did similar things where I intercept the mod loading and convert them from being mere content packs to true mods

[cinder karma]

Heyyy

https://youtu.be/0kQqONqMeLQ?si=9JASKSgfAsBJ91vo

[devout vault]

Every once in a while when I go outside my silly little hobby/cat/etc. subreddits, I see in great quantities why the stereotypes for redditors exist

[sand frost]

at some point I had to swear off arguing with people that sexism, while complex, is in fact a real phenomena in the comments

[winged cape]

i normally just browse some niche and welcoming subreddits, and i used to think reddit isnt as bad as ppl steoreotype them as, but most of the popular subs can be... yk
the sdv subreddit i liked a lot, but after joining this discord it just feels sm less welcoming compared to here

[grave meteor]

I like reddit but mostly just scroll and comment only on my schools page

[cinder karma]

Reddit is down where do I get knitting pictures now

[grave meteor]

it is???????????????????????

[cinder karma]

Well it's back now

Someone has been knitting smoked salmon

[safe dragon]

as one should

[dusty pollen]

where’s our link

[cinder karma]

It's front page on r/knitting

[heavy dagger]

https://reddit.com/r/knitting

[sand frost]

That’s less fun

I thought it was actual smoked salmon

Being knit

[dusty pollen]

pretty art though

[sand frost]

real pretty!

[rain apex]

@worn remnant what's the max number of * you ever contemplated using

I'm at ***

[worn remnant]

i treat them like ternary operators, tbh

[cinder karma]

The more the better?

[worn remnant]

it's not worth trying to be clever and doing a lot of tricky stuff in one line. separate it out and make it easier to follow (i do this because i am not smart)

[rain apex]

The *** is a passed by ref array of pointers so i felt it was at least a lil justified

[rain apex]

But normal person would probably make a struct

[worn remnant]

i do love to make a struct

[rain apex]

More languages should just let us struct whenever we want instead of jumping through oop hoops /j

[devout vault]

Up until this point I thought this was c# talk and so assumed you were talking about multiplication for some reason. (Well, I guess c# technically has pointers…)

[marble jewel]

Is... is there programming talk happening here

[rain apex]

No

[safe dragon]

I thought the *** was some kind of abstract measure of how much code has made you curse

[tranquil grove]

it was happening in general, as is customary

I do kinda miss working with pointers knowingly

[marble jewel]

Ah that makes more sense

[cinder karma]

The context is #making-mods-general

[devout vault]

Nobody is stopping you from using unsafe code (Assuming you mean in C# land)

[tranquil grove]

I think my only experience with unsafe in C# is looking at atra's code
probably should look into it for fun, though

[devout vault]

My first experience was my pre-Harmony method patching crimes (which I stole from stack overflow)

https://github.com/spacechase0/SpaceCore_SDV/blob/master/Utilities/Hijack.cs

This is when I - and possibly the SDV community at large? - was made aware of Harmony: https://github.com/spacechase0/SpaceCore_SDV/issues/2

[cinder karma]

What about unsafe rust code

[devout vault]

I mean, it's rust. Automatically disqualified from being good

[cinder karma]

What about zig

[devout vault]

(Hey discord, you know how you're always adding niche features no one needs? Could you add channel specific roles, I want to have "Resident Rust Hater" as mine)

[ivory shadow]

I hate rust too. Waste of perfectly good iron.

[cinder karma]

Smh

https://youtu.be/MJuVfVMJsc4?si=0QdFLt3w-xkBYxFU

What about carbon

[devout vault]

You already sent this to me, stop pushing government "truth" on me and my water-douses-stars conspiracy theory

[cinder karma]

Tbh I listened to an entire talk over why I should use kotlin

And yes

[ivory shadow]

Oops sorry that was me I thought the solar system was empty so I hit the light switch

[devout vault]

( For those missing context, #programmers-off-topic message )

[cinder karma]

Kotlin is superior to Java

It's still the jvm

[ivory shadow]

I've never actually used Kotlin, but if I ever got weird and decided to make a Minecraft mod again, I'd use Kotlin.

[devout vault]

Unfortunately, you're wrong. Why in the world does typing look optional. What is this, gdscript? (Yes I know kotlin came first, that's not the point)

[ivory shadow]

That's the only situation where I'd ever use the JVM again though

[devout vault]

What if I finish my C#-to-Java thing (Which I'm making specifically to mod minecraft)

[cinder karma]

I feel like if I every got a choice

I pick aot c# or Rust

(Or 🐍 )

[tranquil grove]

I've never touched Rust so I'm looking at a tutorial & this entire section is blank, seems pretty easy

[devout vault]

It all flowed off screen

[safe dragon]

flowed out of control

[tranquil grove]

let some variables, use println, and you're done

[safe dragon]

let mut some variables to change them

ez

[devout vault]

I technically have touched rust (smash 4 modding I think? or was it smash ultimate?) but didn't stick with long enough to get a feel for it.

I have since seen enough code to hate it, though

[ivory shadow]

using System;
var hello = "this is a valid C# program";
Console.WriteLine(hello);

[cinder karma]

Like 🐍 is good for when I don't care

C# AOT is good when I do care

[devout vault]

Fair, but kotlin also doesn't seem have return types on the method declarations (at least from the sample code I looked at)

[cinder karma]

Rust is great when I care a lot

Kotlin does have return types ish

[safe dragon]

var my beloved

[cinder karma]

But sometimes it can be inferred

[ivory shadow]

(Honestly, just let me target the JVM with C#.)

[tranquil grove]

I enjoy javascript's carelessness about types/nulls/etc, but I do end up writing spaghetti every time as a result

[safe dragon]

enjoying something that hurts you

[devout vault]

(Do I have the tool for you!
Or I would, if I got it where hello world would actually run. It does technically translate it to a jar though!)

[cinder karma]

That's what casey is working on!

[tranquil grove]

(but then I use string-object way too much in C# too)

[cinder karma]

I still prefer kotlin though

I think casey just hates functional programming which is fair

[safe dragon]

what's a string-object

[devout vault]

Incredibly unhelpful when browsing method declarations to see what an API can do

[red crest]

might i recommend the worst of both worlds: having typescript installed but using : any every time you want spaghetti

[ivory shadow]

I have commited many JS type crimes that are coming back to bite me as we migrate our work repos to TypeScript, because how do I write types for some of this nonsense

[tranquil grove]

Dictionary<string,object> in object models and such, so my json files/etc can just have whatever types mixed in together

[devout vault]

Like, sure, in C++ there's auto that does the same thing, but the only way I'm fine with that is because you almost have to do it sometimes because of template stuff (and even then, the actual type is still part of the declaration, like auto func() -> int { ... } )

[red crest]

(ive also been slowly migrating my stuff to typescript and running into the same things biting me)

[safe dragon]

not even JsonValue

[devout vault]

I love doing this

[safe dragon]

I've never done that

[red crest]

you're missing out

[heavy dagger]

New quote added by kittycatcasey as #6444 (https://discordapp.com/channels/137344473976799233/1215712021207720006/1386846481960538162)

[devout vault]

This never got quoted, but I wanted to use it because its relevant

.q 6444

[heavy dagger]

#6444

I love crime

• @devout vault (Jump)

24 Jun 2025 @ 05:42:23 PM UTC

[tranquil grove]

currently I'm running into the drawback that Content Patcher doesn't want to use Fields on a pile of mystery objects, so I'm limiting myself a bit

[safe dragon]

you'd think this channel would entice me into modding but the more I learn about it the more I'm just finding out what kind of strange very "unnatural" constructs are commonplace in modding

[red crest]

does it even want to use Entries on a pile of mystery objects

[devout vault]

Yeah, CP limitations do make that difficult at times...

DGA did something like this and had to use JValue or whatever it was

[safe dragon]

y'all do some cursed stuff sometimes

[devout vault]

Only sometimes?

[tranquil grove]

if you're just saving over entries in a string-obj dict, entries is fine, but it won't dig deeper except with some weird TargetFields stuff

[ivory shadow]

Modding being weird and mildly cursed is just an extension of gamedev being weird and mildly cursed.

[devout vault]

To be fair a lot of the people here make stuff advanced enough that doing cursed things is common for us, but not common for the wider modding population

[safe dragon]

there's less cursed IL magic in regular game dev though

[red crest]

i had a modified CP version i was messing with to let it work with miscellaneous JObjects like that thatd probably make what you wanted work, but it seemed very.... fragile and weird
(not to get too on topic or anything)

[tranquil grove]

yeah, I was only testing in abstract to see how much it tolerates undefined/mixed classes like that, which is...enough for my purposes

basically trying to define a list with mixed types for different actions that take different settings, without an AllPossibleArgs class

so the mystery settings are object now but nothing else is

[red crest]

is there a significant difference between an EveryPossibleArg class and a AllPossibleArgs class

[safe dragon]

maybe someday I'll be motivated to mess around with modding even though I don't play the game

[ivory shadow]

(Honestly, using a JObject is possibly less effort than making a custom deserializer for your class with how dumb those can be to write.)

[devout vault]

Have you tried [JsonExtensionData]? Admittedly this was a custom content pack and not through CP.

https://github.com/spacechase0/StardewValleyMods/blob/develop/DynamicGameAssets/PackData/DynamicFieldData.cs#L18

You can also see later in that file stuff using JToken

[tranquil grove]

no, just compulsively tweaking the grammar

[cinder karma]

Usually when it's inferred the ide says what it is

[devout vault]

There's also a [JsonExtensionData] in BasePackData for "ExtensionData", which is mainly form other mods attaching stuff like CustomFields in vanilla but allowed more complex values in theory.
https://github.com/spacechase0/StardewValleyMods/blob/develop/PicturePortraits/CameraTool.cs#L70

[cinder karma]

That's how it works in

Well. Rust.

[tranquil grove]

I haven't really touched any json classes this time, but there may be something like that that'll convince CP it's a real class it can zoom into, yeah

[devout vault]

I did something like this at one point I think. Can;'t recall if through CP, but it used the "$type" parameter that newtonsoft does

[tranquil grove]

prior to this I've mostly messed with JToken/JObject parsing on FTM's side and with content packs

[ivory shadow]

Mod manifests also have JsonExtensionData, which can potentially be convenient.

At least, I've made use of the extension data before

[cinder karma]

You can also use custom jconversion

But CP might not drill into that and also it's on topic

[tranquil grove]

yeah, tldr I'll see if I can get around that limitation once I've committed to a data model

C# converters are fun but I've only really done them for time-of-day classes and such

[ivory shadow]

Mildly on topic: I really wish Newtonsoft had actual built-ins for discriminators instead of needing a custom serializer.

[devout vault]

Yeah, that's how I found out about it. I recall being the one to ask Pathos for this to begin with. 😛 The idea initially was for marking a mod as compatible with Makeshift Multiplayer.

I don't see it in our DMs or an issue on github though, so maybe it was on the old SMAPI discord server.

DGA also used the manifest extra fields for the pack format version

[devout vault]

Discriminators as in...?

Like polymorphic types? Because it does do that

[cinder karma]

Less on topic: I wish c# had unions

[tranquil grove]

it has Linq.Union or w/e, I assume that covers everything

[devout vault]

Very different kind of union than what atra is talking about 😂

[ivory shadow]

Its polymorphic types don't really count, imo

[devout vault]

Why not?

[ivory shadow]

Since you need to explicitly enable type name handling, and, well, it's using type names

You can't provide your own friendly names, I don't think you can override what key it's looking for

[devout vault]

Ah. So you want something more like an enum -> type mapping

[ivory shadow]

It's not friendly for people authoring JSON

[cinder karma]

Yup. Gotta unionize Microsoft

Picketts at dawn.

But you don't even work there atra!

Don't care general strike

Wait

[devout vault]

Hmm, well, it looks like a workaround to make it work for specific things (ie. not editing base serializer settings) is [JsonProperty(ItemTypeNameHandling = Objects)] (or something like that).

And as for friendly names, you can kinda work around it by implementing ISerializationBinder it looks like it?

But still very much workarounds

For an even jankier workaround I guess you could make a dummy class that just has "Type" and a JsonExtensionData property, and then have a function that resolves it to the actual object

[ivory shadow]

https://github.com/KhloeLeclair/StardewMods/blob/main/Common/Serialization/Converters/DiscriminatingConverter.cs

I've done this for my stuff.

Cloudy Skies uses it.

Usage: https://github.com/KhloeLeclair/StardewMods/blob/main/CloudySkies/Serialization/LayerDataConverter.cs#L15

https://github.com/KhloeLeclair/StardewMods/blob/main/CloudySkies/LayerData/BaseLayerData.cs#L7

https://github.com/KhloeLeclair/StardewMods/blob/main/CloudySkies/LayerData/RainLayerData.cs

[devout vault]

Yeah, DGA did this (in a much more hardcoded way)

https://github.com/spacechase0/StardewValleyMods/blob/75fb9a8ce7f683f30248afbe8ee71a9e7f54c92e/DynamicGameAssets/Framework/ContentPacks/BasePackDataListConverter.cs#L32

[ivory shadow]

It works with content patcher which was my only requirement for this. 😄

(... maybe I should stop talking about it though, this is so not off-topic)

[devout vault]

I like how this channel has like three different definitions of "on topic".

1. Stardew stuff, get out of here
2. Programming stuff not covered by 1, the intended purpose.
3. Everything except 1, usually (but far from always) tech related

If we had another axis we could make an alignment chart out of it

[safe dragon]

not to brag but I almost never end up on topic

[lethal walrus]

don't forget minecraft

[safe dragon]

I have no idea what y'all are doing over there

[devout vault]

Falls under 3

[lethal walrus]

true

[devout vault]

I feel like most of the minecraft conversations within the past 6 months have been started by me

[safe dragon]

probably

[safe dragon]

literally me

whenever I learn about new reflection magic from this place

[devout vault]

Is this you discovering reflection magic (ie. who came up with this), or using it (ie. I will now spy on everyone's code using my new powers)

I suppose it can be both

[safe dragon]

I just tend to find out there's parts of the reflection library I did not know even existed

which I then proceed to still never use because I have no reason to while writing REST APIs

[devout vault]

writing REST APIs
My condolences

[safe dragon]

there's definitely some reflection code in there but I've seen y'all work directly with op codes before

[devout vault]

Transpilers are fun!

[safe dragon]

what's wrong with rest api's

[ivory shadow]

Better REST than GraphQL

(Really though, GQL is awful. As a front end developer, I am aghast at the thought of someone giving front end developers the ability to make arbitrary database queries.)

[devout vault]

Has anyone considered reverting the internet back to just being static html sites and niche forums.

Not because of all the negative effects of social media and what not. Solely so developers don't have to deal with as much nonsense

[safe dragon]

I've never used it honestly. It sounded appealing at my old job where it at times felt like we were trying to reinvent graphql through a rest api with just a lot of issues

[devout vault]

Inventing a new class of developers... middle-end developers. totally not just a new name for full stack developers, this is totally different

[safe dragon]

I am truly full stack now

there is no other dev

oh wait I guess there's a database guy

[ivory shadow]

You're only a full stack developer once you've developed your own operating system to run your other code on

[safe dragon]

at my old job I did a lot of database work but not so much here yet

[ivory shadow]

(Really, you should also be designing your own chips, but that's a hardware problem and as a software developer, sod that)

[safe dragon]

[devout vault]

<flashbacks to when I tinkered with that ages ago>

(Keep in mind that at the time I didn't even understand pointers)

[safe dragon]

at time I already feel like I have to defend my tendency build something myself instead of using a library

[devout vault]

Looks like the wiki I used still exists. (wiki.osdev.org)

[ivory shadow]

I definitely didn't write a rudimentary operating system for ComputerCraft computers once, with cooperative multithreading and stuff.

[devout vault]

Sounds fun - if I can skip anything below the logic gate level 😛

[devout vault]

👀 👀 👀 👀 👀 👀 👀 👀

[ivory shadow]

Honestly the worst part of that was that it was Lua, lol

[devout vault]

Fair

That's part of why I dislike ComputerCraft

And the other is that they don't do state persistence

The state persistence is the main reason I liked the idea of OpenComputers better

Well, that, and the vibe. Plus some of the other features

[ivory shadow]

I remember being especially proud at the time for using an exploit to crash the existing code loop so there was no overhead, just 100% my own OS stuff.

[devout vault]

Like CC doesn't have holograms

[devout vault]

ACE in a MC mod, amazing

[devout vault]

This is so much fun though...

[ivory shadow]

I mean ComputerCraft is ACE the Mod

[devout vault]

I guess technically, but like

It's intended

I doubt they intended for your crash exploit 😛

ACE isn't fun if it's an intended feature

[ivory shadow]

Yeah, lol. So, if you crash a computercraft computer normally it just goes to a "Wah we crashed" screen and you have to restart it.

I used metatable bullshit to take over execution when it printed about the crash

The normal event loop was already interrupted at that point, so I could set up my own event loop, and just resume doing things and everything was fine

[devout vault]

Open Computers 2 is interesting in that it runs linux, but that sorta feels a bit too far for my liking

And I'm pretty sure it didn't have the holograms 😛 (and nor does OC2 Reimagined)

[devout vault]

Like, it's not even the low level part I dislike. It's more like I'd rather it be some "fantasy computer" (like how PICO-8 (will this summon aquo?) is a "fantasy console")

I guess OC1 is kinda like that too, especially with the computer parts stuff, but it doesn't quite cross the line for me

[ivory shadow]

I just remembered. My computercraft OS also did mesh networking.

[devout vault]

I can't recall what mesh networking is (or at least to the extent of being certain my memory is correct)

[ivory shadow]

So, there's wireless modems in ComputerCraft, but they have a maximum range.

Like 64 blocks, up to, uh... something over 300?

[devout vault]

Ah

So your thing would act as routers sending messages where they belong?

[ivory shadow]

Yeah.

[devout vault]

Honestly, the thing I dislike most about those wireless things (including stuff like AE2 wireless terminals) is the cross dimension support.

Like, it either doesn’t work, or works anywhere. I want something more along the lines of the signal traveling through a nether portal, and range still applying.

This would also open up fun stuff like a nether access point which uses portals to extend range further than a single access point normally would

Infinite is fine eventually (especially because of other mod dimensions), but I want an in between step

[ivory shadow]

Nope sorry you glued an ender pearl to a dohicky now you have infinite power per tick anywhere in the known multiverse

[devout vault]

It feels even more egregious if you use Immersive Portals, because then it doesn’t even feel like teleporting between dimensions since it’s seamless.

[tranquil grove]

I fiddled around with a lot of remote storage tricks/mods last time I played, but it felt like everything other than "no range, you just have access" was hampered by weird chunk loading issues

albeit a few years back

[devout vault]

Speaking of IP, I love the dimension stacking, but I experimented with it while also having nether scaling on and it’s kind annoying since you have to mine a 4x4 hole in the nether ceiling (obsidian with this mode) to get through.

Practically speaking you need 5x5 unless you line it up with a corner

Also, jumping from nether to surface that way is janky and impossible, you basically need some way to launch yourself

Deep in my DMs with DH there’s a couple dozens messages + gifs of me trying and failing various ways to 😛

[devout vault]

Chunk loading is definitely a problem, though thankfully there are chunk loaders.

There’s also mods designed around it kinda, like the cloud storage mod

I remember back when chunk loaders had to be crafted, but nowadays the main method is just marking the chunks on a map

[tranquil grove]

part of the issue was that at least 2 chunk loader objects in the host's pack just didn't visibly affect anything

iirc we found a working one eventually, but I'd already wired up...I think AE2 stuff? something universal with a tablet

[devout vault]

There’s also mods that work despite chunks unloading to some extent, like the trains in Create

[ivory shadow]

You know what annoys me? Chunk loaders that are really expensive to build

I have built vanilla chunk loaders in some packs before because the modded ones cost so many materials

[tranquil grove]

yeah, the first one I found at the time (poking the item list at random) wanted a ton of fuel constantly, and then didn't work anyway

[ivory shadow]

Who would win:

• super expensive block that you need to supply a constant supply of coal
• a nether portal with a minecraft going through it

[devout vault]

I find vanilla workarounds for that (and other things) fascinating.

Like I remember Etho experimenting with it for his enderporters but there were some quirks that made it impractical at the time. And the. The current hermitcraft seasons mail system as well

[ivory shadow]

Making all ender pearls into chunk loaders was a heck of a move by Mojang

[devout vault]

Pack creator disables minecarts (or nether portals), just to make you suffer

[ivory shadow]

I like the cat porters people use now.

[devout vault]

…is that a thing now??? I thought they fixed oddities on that front when you died with pearls still in the world.

That sounds easy to exploit to bring a server to its knees

[devout vault]

The what

[ivory shadow]

So, when a player logs off, their pet cats change state, right? So you can use a cat to detect if your'e online or not. By combining that with an ender pearl stasis chamber and some extra chunk loading, you can build a system that detects when you log in and out in quick succession

And automatically trigger the ender pearl stasis chamber to teleport you back to it

[devout vault]

Part of my hypothetical “final boss” mod (ie. The last and most extensive one I’d work on) would partially involve unifying a bunch of these mechanics.

Like, you could maybe a build a cloud storage type thing, but it works by you creating a pocket dimension everything is stored in and accessing that dimension from wherever

[devout vault]

I did not know cats do that

[devout vault]

That sounds incredibly clever and fun.

If there was some way to automate gender chest access you could even have multiple spots this way

(I’m aware of what autocorrect did, I just decided to keep it)

[ivory shadow]

lol

It has to do with how a chest becomes inaccessible when a cat is sitting on it.

You can detect that with a comparator.

[devout vault]

Brb making a create: estrogen addon where your chest size adds additional inventory space /s

[devout vault]

Didn’t know the player being online mattered for this

[devout vault]

Also didn’t know you could detect like this

But have you considered I wouldn’t want to trap a cat in a redstone box for eternity. I’m not Schrödinger

[cinder karma]

True!

Please don't disturb the kitty

[ivory shadow]

Anyways, it's not like you need a cat to trigger a remote stasis chamber.

You can also use wireless redstone or fishing poles

-# I am a big fan of the black magic "how on Earth did you make the game do that" builds.

[devout vault]

Yeah, those are fun.

Like those tnt/anvil/arrow/etc. cannons that can in theory shoot anywhere in the world

[devout vault]

...how do those work (in vanilla)

At least in a useful way, I can kinda see a fishing pole one but then you'd have to carry the pole in your hand until you use it I think?

[ivory shadow]

I don't really know the specifics, but the wireless redstone is based on how the daylight detector works. They have a global update system, where all of them update on the same game tick. And by combining that with other redstone mechanics and very precise minutea about how the game works, you can detect differences in behavior in one redstone contraption based on another one elsewhere having done something.

I think it has to do with items dropped from droppers too?

Fishing poles is just a bug where you leave a chunk with an active bobber entity tied to your pole without it updating

Then as long as no one loads the chunk, you're fine I think? And you just swap to the fishing rod and activate it to reactivate that chunk when you're ready

[devout vault]

What the heck. That sounds incredibly broken and fragile.

I love it

[ivory shadow]

Yeah, technical Minecraft players are nuts

It's something Minecraft has that no other game does

[devout vault]

I feel like other games do (see: every speedrunning community ever), but the sandbox nature of minecraft makes it more widely used

Like, some of the crazy stuff from portal 2 speedrunning.

Or in zelda games - especially botw/totk, since those have more "emergent gameplay" type things compared to other zelda games

[ivory shadow]

Speedrunners touch on it, but speedrunners by nature have very specific goals and are constrained by time

While Minecraft tech builders just go hog wild on any random thing

Who cares if it took weeks of building and thousands of resources they're gonna make the best darn <thing> you've ever seen

[devout vault]

That's specifically why I mentioned the sandbox nature of making it more widely used 😛

It's the same principal/mindset, but different goals

Speedrunners optimize for time, minecraft tech builders optimize for insanity big numbers

[ivory shadow]

As a washed up speedrunner who loves this kind of thing, there is definitely overlap. I can't possibly say there isn't

[devout vault]

washed up
You activated my ethoslab trigger phrase

[ivory shadow]

There's only two kinds of gamers who you'll ever hear talking about "float precise" stuff in a game:

1. speedrunners
2. technical Minecraft players

[devout vault]

Similarly: Me making SDV mods specifically to make things people consider not possible (multiplayer, 3d, even the jump mod)

If you don't believe me on the jump mod, I have proof that it was spite for people saying it wasn't possible: https://github.com/StardewModders/mod-ideas/issues/69

Too many people are limited by the idea of how practical something is

[rain apex]

69

[devout vault]

A more real-world example: That guy who solved two unsolved math problems because he came in to class late and thought they were homework

[rain apex]

I rather not dismiss practical tho, if it is something I will ship into the world

[devout vault]

You forgot "modders suffering from a NaN epidemic" (game developers too, but that's a bit further than I'd classify as a gamer, even if the people for the former usually do the latter as well)

[rain apex]

But the person who answered impossible was definitely pigeonholed in thinking

[devout vault]

Ento was a pretty big figure in modding back then

Like in my mind at the time, it was Pathos, Routine/Platonymous, then him.

[rain apex]

Sure but that doesn't mean I can't disagree with specific thing said

[devout vault]

True

[rain apex]

I actually don't know much about routine at all tho

Was ento sundrop city?

[devout vault]

The PyTK person (though that was before the time of many current modders)

[rain apex]

Is pytk not plat

[devout vault]

Yeah, though he had a couple frameworks before that. Like Advanced Location Loader (the first way non-programmers could add locations)

[rain apex]

This whole time i thought py stood for that

[devout vault]

Routine is the discord name of Platonymous

That's why I used a / there, guess that was unclear though

[rain apex]

Oh i see yeah opps

[devout vault]

I wasn't saying you were wrong either, was just explaining that Ento wasn't a random new modder

[rain apex]

I wonder if plat will ever return even just to seaver

[devout vault]

seaver?

[rain apex]

Server

[devout vault]

Ah

[rain apex]

They did the tmxtile library yoo right

[devout vault]

Yeah

[rain apex]

Massive impact even now

[devout vault]

Originally the code was part of TMXLoader I think

(One of the frameworks that got merged into PyTK eventually)

[devout vault]

Yeah.

We can add even more people to having a massive impact even now if we want to include the butterfly effect 😛

[rain apex]

This is becoming really on topic but it sucks that tmxl is 1. listed in many old mods as dep 2. has alpha version that hard crashes 1.6 rn

[devout vault]

Like the person who made initial SMAPI. (I thought that was Clxs but that was apparently the Farmhand guy)

[rain apex]

Someone did an unofficial that fixed nothing except change the mod id

[rain apex]

AU where sdv modding is divided like MC forge vs fabric

[devout vault]

Farmhand had much larger scope than even today's SMAPI. It was more akin to Forge. 😛

[crystal wren]

[rain apex]

What is the situation over there rn who has dominance

[devout vault]

I know because I was contributing a bunch

[devout vault]

I'm not entirely sure but I've heard fabric users are "defecting" to neoforge since it isn't run by lexmanos

At least for 1.21+

[rain apex]

Ah are they a Character

For fabric or original forge?

[devout vault]

Back when I was modding they were "just" incredibly abrasive, but some more stuff has come up since then from what I understand

[devout vault]

LexManos is one of the original Forge guys and still runs Forge.

[ivory shadow]

Fabric only happened because Forge took forever to come out at one point.

I remember being annoyed about it at the time for fragmenting the community.

[devout vault]

I think some of the orignial forge guys are/were on neoforge, like cpw

[rain apex]

So hm if i am understanding this right fabric is like smapi in that it's a minimal mod loader that provides essentials?

[devout vault]

A lot of the neoforge team at first was people split from forge I think

[ivory shadow]

Yeah, Fabric is very minimal.

[devout vault]

I think it provides a bit more than SMAPI does, but still not as much as forge?

[rain apex]

And forge is like if smapi had cp spacecore etc bolted on

[devout vault]

I think fabric might be best compared to SDV 1.6 with SMAPI+CP?

While forge is much more extensive.

Pre-1.6 SDV SMAPI+CP would be closer to Risugami's ModLoader (though a bit more developed than that)

[red crest]

i havent heard the name risugami in like, a decade

[devout vault]

Yeah...

I've also recently learned the fabric leadership also sucks (which is how Quilt got started)

[devout vault]

Did you know Modrinth has support for his modloader

[rain apex]

Sdv is a very lucky community from top to bottom

[devout vault]

Which is wild to me since Risugami's modloader died ages before modrinth became a thing, but it's nice they're supporting old stuff too

[red crest]

i did!

Better Than Wolves is a notable one that used it, iirc?

[devout vault]

They even have most alpha versions (maybe infdev too, even)

[rain apex]

So is quilt intended to be fabric without whoever they don't like in charge or is there deeper design things here

[devout vault]

Mainly the former but I think there are some smaller differences nowadays

[red crest]

im pretty sure its just the former yeah

[ivory shadow]

I do not want to remember the days of risugami's loader

Things were so painful back then

[rain apex]

I guess MC has another faction with bedrock

All these loaders r java only right

[devout vault]

I'm always slightly annoyed when I see people talking about having to have delete the META-INF folder back then, because that's technically not how it worked.

Like, sure, that did work and is what most people do, but notably: that made the game not launch on not-Windows. The thing that worked on every platform was to only delete the MOJANG_C.* files in that folder

[ivory shadow]

Bedrock is gross. Redstone isn't deterministic.

[devout vault]

Bugrock

Shoutout to the singleplayer client-server desyncs causing crazy deaths in bedrock

[ivory shadow]

And yeah, there's so many dumb bugs. Never play hardcore on bedrock

[red crest]

META-INF...

[rain apex]

Sounds like they gotta rewrite MC in rust

It'll solve everything trust

[marble jewel]

Neoforge is taking over many of the mods, but Fabric still seems to reign supreme for optimization mods and for the technical community

[devout vault]

I saw a mod recently that changes redstone to be deterministic in a more intuitive way (java edition of course).

Like, sure, it currently is, but it's weird in that it relies on the cardinal directions and update order and such in some cases. The mod I saw changes it to be based on the distance from the wire (ie. the strength of the signal) (among other things)

[devout vault]

And kill modding

[red crest]

i just set up a neoforge modpack today and yeah, maybe its just placebo or anecdotal but an equivalent pack on fabric ran a lot better with all the optimization mods it has

what mostly annoys me now though is that after some version, Neoforge mods are not compatible with Forge mods

[devout vault]

You know what I like about Forge? I can use Sinytra Connector and run most Fabric mods on it anyways 😛

[rain apex]

Solve everything for our macrohard ovelords

[devout vault]

That's intentional past the initial few releases though, one reason for the fork was because of the old leadership being stubborn about changes

Even ones that would be better for the long term health of modding

[red crest]

i know its intentional, but it doesnt stop it annoying me

[devout vault]

Fair

And I agree

[marble jewel]

Now Quilt on the other hand, does anyone know wth is going on with that

[red crest]

if it were a few years down the line, itd probably be less annoying, bc the things i want would probably all be neoforge

[devout vault]

Not really besides what I mentioned earlier

[red crest]

but i wanna play now, when its still kinda the transition period

[devout vault]

I know a big one was because of Fabric not accepting PRs from people supposedly specifically because of bigotry against the PR developer, though

[devout vault]

Yeah, but there are some notable Fabric mods.

Notably? Spectrum

Which is relatively unknown, but that might partially be due to being fabric and not forge

[red crest]

relatively unknown but one i loved in my last playthrough and tried to add to this one

before i realized it was an entire MC verson behind...

[devout vault]

I wanna play with happy ghasts but still have all my 1.20.1 mods 😔

[marble jewel]

Fabric Discord's server-feedback channel was (probably still is) a constant heated argument

[red crest]

(i still have copium that Astral Sorcery will be ported to modern versions one day)

[safe dragon]

it is...

[devout vault]

I'm interested in Astral Sorcery but don't wanna play on old versions

[red crest]

just go back in time and play it when it was current, of course

[devout vault]

How about Thaumcraft (yes I know the team behind the thermal mods is working on a new version)

[safe dragon]

I choose to ignore context and pretend you're getting into Astral Sorcery irl

[devout vault]

Ah yes, let me go invent time travel.

...and a memory wiper, so I can forget new minecraft stuff for a complete experience

[red crest]

"oh you like minecraft modding? name 5 of your favourite mods"
"thaumcraft"
"ok thats on me, i set the bar too low"

[red crest]

i would if i could

[devout vault]

not gonna lie I am curious about stuff like that but my mind is too science-engrained to be open minded about it

[red crest]

if it could give me an extra block of jump height irl itd be a lot more tempting

[devout vault]

Also, ignoring context is always a fun game to play

[devout vault]

Are you implying you already can jump a full block IRL

[safe dragon]

I was away for this whole conversation so it was easy to ignore the context

[red crest]

depending on your definition of block

[marble jewel]

1 meter

[ivory shadow]

Can't believe casey is learning astral sorcery to unlock the ability to double jump

[devout vault]

One meter

[red crest]

but also technically 0 + 1 is still an extra block

[devout vault]

Smh, I got that from HRT

[safe dragon]

if you try to jump at the apex of your jump it then it will allow you to cause your vertical velocity is 0

[marble jewel]

Did anyone play this years April Fools update?

[safe dragon]

I did watch it

[red crest]

create: estrogen 1.21.1 when

[devout vault]

Stop calling out my jump mod 😤

[safe dragon]

lmao

[devout vault]

(Why in the world is that emoji called triumph)

[safe dragon]

idk

[ivory shadow]

Plot twist: you can jump again at the apex of your jump since your vertical velocity is zero, but it's float precise and just there as a treat for speedrunners / TASers.

[marble jewel]

My servers are entirely on Docker containers now

[safe dragon]

never trust pterodactyls they're up to no good

[devout vault]

I watched it.

I want to play it, but I want to play it with people.
My current list of smaller MC things I want to try with people:

• Craftmine (2025 april fools snapshot)
• Roguecraft (mostly datapack but also a little bit of custom map)
• One Block (custom map)
• One Chunk (custom map)
• Impossible Minecraft (datapack)
• Border Hoarder (mostly datapack but on a specific map, and also not on 1.21 like the others)

[red crest]

never even heard of this so im safe

[marble jewel]

Never trust any extinct dinosaur for that matter

[safe dragon]

my minecraft server is some funky papermc thing that no one uses