Magic the Gathering

[sleek ferry]

I’m playing Gruul aggro in explorer

[rich bronze]

oh explorer

[sleek ferry]

Well it’s kind of a mix of Gruul aggro and Gruul value

[rich bronze]

oh right pioneer creativity is a thing

[sleek ferry]

New samut goes crazy

[rich bronze]

I tried it feels so weak compared to modern creativity

[sleek ferry]

I mean yeah

It’s pioneer/explorer lol

[rich bronze]

true

[sleek ferry]

But it still puts you on a timer

[rich bronze]

it’s more of a… combo deck

which I don’t want

I want to play a midrange goodstuff deck and just happen to have a combo I may or may not play

[sleek ferry]

My first time ever playing mtg in 2020, Gruul was my first deck, so I have a soft spot for it

[rich bronze]

Yeah fair enough gruul is great for aggro

My first deck was boros burn in modern

so I have a soft spot for red decks in general

[sleek ferry]

My first time ever hitting mythic in arena was with mardu party in standard, so that’s another deck I have a soft spot for

[rich bronze]

murktide, prowess, burn and so on

[sleek ferry]

Yeah I would say red is prob my fav color, but usually not mono

I like the way red splashes

[rich bronze]

Yeah red goes well with other colours

I mean hey creativity is my main deck

And creativity itself is red

not to mention fable and wrenn

[sleek ferry]

Wyd once w6 gets hit for lotr’s sins

[rich bronze]

seriously doubt it will

4c omnath not doing too well

and creativity isn’t either

it’s really just tron rn

[rich bronze]

W6 getting hit would gut greedy manabase decks completely, which Reddit hates but are pretty much the identity of modern. So I doubt it. The only cards on the chopping block are TOR with OBM and Fury being distant seconds

[sleek ferry]

So you think w6 and OBM can coexist together?

[fallow citrus]

I think we can have one or the other but not both

[rich bronze]

No, one will get banned eventually 100%

[fallow citrus]

1 toughness creatures already sucked because of fury/w6 before this

[rich bronze]

Probably the ring

but banning w6 would be a really bad move from wotc rn

grief, the 25% metagame deck, says thank you

The yorion ban was bad enough for us colour soup enjoyers

Also, 4c sucked this pro tour

[sleek ferry]

Idk, I really struggle to see TOR getting hit tbh, not because it’s not powerful, it clearly is, but because it would be the first UB card hit AND it’s THE iconic card from that UB

[rich bronze]

Like the deck has a 45% winrate or less

[rich bronze]

Creativity just over 50%

but the representation of creativity was minimal

[sleek ferry]

What’s scam’s winrate

[rich bronze]

so w6 is safe since no one else runs it

[rich bronze]

~60

Honestly I’d expect a tor ban

And nothing else

OBM if wotc feels spicy

[twilit canyon]

i dont know if pioneer gruul has the cards for that match uo

*up

[lusty trench]

Got a personal tutor, spellseeker and fierce guardianship coming from a friend

https://tenor.com/view/cat-cat-jumping-cat-excited-excited-dance-gif-19354605

[glad peak]

Now take the rest of their cards

[rich bronze]

This fucking boardstate

[fallow citrus]

they sure are gathering some magic there

[rich bronze]

@sleek ferry slightly outdated winrates ( doesn’t include the last round yet )

Looks like W6 is safe come b&r lol

[sleek ferry]

Eaper control

[rich bronze]

Omnath 45% creativity 47% ( and it lost in the final round )

[rich bronze]

not a good look lol

[trail anvil]

christ dude, this guy stalled so hard I had to switch to mobile to finish the game

just looped fogs when they knew it was over

finally hit enough burn to make them have to dig for something else, but there was way too much commander tax on tamiyo for them to ever recover

normally I like outvaluing blue but this was like pulling teeth lol

[zinc shard]

I hecking love Explorer

[trail anvil]

that's an interesting choice of extra turn spell

[zinc shard]

It's an Azorious Control deck that plays [[Strict Proctor]] with [[Lotus Field]]

[lost widget]

https://scryfall.com/card/stx/33/strict-proctor

Strict Proctor <:mana1:292901508373282827><:manaw:1007102126813610074>

Creature — Spirit Cleric
Flying
Whenever a permanent entering the battlefield causes a triggered ability to trigger, counter that ability unless its controller pays .
"You might believe being dead for centuries has made me more lenient. I think you'll find the opposite to be true."
1/3

https://scryfall.com/card/m20/249/lotus-field

Lotus Field

Land
Hexproof
Lotus Field enters the battlefield tapped.
When Lotus Field enters the battlefield, sacrifice two lands.
: Add three mana of any one color.

[trail anvil]

ahhhh so they use it to take lotus field's ability off the stack

[zinc shard]

yeah if needed, but mostly its to end my turn

[trail anvil]

bruh this is supposed to be an extus deck

thank god I'm playing a resilient deck lmao

[granite badge]

is that literally every legal boardwide

[trail anvil]

no lol there are a ton on arena

but it sure is a fuckton

[atomic harness]

[lusty trench]

Domain

My favourite

[golden plover]

Isn't that DMU?

[modern minnow]

ok now that it's been a bit
who is actually playing mirkwood bats

[golden plover]

No one

As expected, 4 mana for a blood artist isn't the move

[modern minnow]

ok good

i see it pop up in new cards on edhrec all the time but its not like a 4 mana do nothing

but its kinda close

[golden plover]

People freaked out over it but it wasn't even in top 5 cards in the set

[modern minnow]

yeah i really don't get it

[golden plover]

Sure, if you're really dying for a third blood artist, it's worth it

But that's if you desperately need one

[glad peak]

People were freaking out because something something dockside op

But that’s a problem with dockside, not bats

[golden plover]

Yeah the issue is and continues to be dockside

[modern minnow]

i love dockside i love having cards in my deck that basically only ever grab dockside i love flickering dockside i love reanimating dockside i love bouncing dockside i love dockside loops

[waxen timber]

For a common, mikwood bats is pretty good

[modern minnow]

yeah its decent it just got like mega overhyped

[golden plover]

I love running like 6 flickers just for the sake of dockside

Woops I win

[modern minnow]

it'd be really funny if they kept dockside legal haha

[golden plover]

The longer they keep dockside and Thoracle legal, the funnier the bit gets

[modern minnow]

do you think there is a species of human that wants dockside legal elesh norn banned

elesh is better than dockside because it literally stops dockside

[golden plover]

So Fable of the Mirror breaker is 3/3 for being in winning pro tour decks

Fucked up card

[twilit canyon]

orcish bowmasters carried fable to a win

not the other way around

[golden plover]

I mean both are probably issues tbh, but it's fucked up that fable has been in every winning pro tour deck since release

Also really says a lot that 16 of the 40 non-lands were MH cards and literally no creature in the deck went through standard, everything was printed straight to modern

[fallow citrus]

I mean fable has probably been in every winning pro tour deck because of how good red is as a colour

[golden plover]

Yeah it's been good in all three formats

Creativity in Pioneer and Rakdos in Modern, can't remember what the standard one was

[glad peak]

Commander nights and Sheldon, for sure

[rich bronze]

also bonkers in creativity in modern

Enables x=2 turn 4

[sleek ferry]

Does new ashiok do anything cute in any format besides standard, commander and maybe pioneer/explorer?

[trail anvil]

I can't imagine it has anything particularly amazing, that static seems super niche

like people brought up how it would be funny with bolas' citadel but that's 11 mana

[sleek ferry]

Yeah, bolas citadel thing is cope

Maybe dimir mill plays it? But like mono blue mill is so much better in explorer

[trail anvil]

playing for the explosive ult doesn't really make sense to me and the nightmare tokens seem to grow pretty slow if you wanted to use those for defensive purposes

[fallow citrus]

dimir mill already has new jace

[trail anvil]

also peep this turn 2 lmao

well I guess 3 by now

[sleek ferry]

Yikes

[trail anvil]

t1 ragavan, t2 swing hit their vraan and amber for witch

t3 I drop judith and they're dead

[sleek ferry]

I had to take a break from hbrawl, I’ve been running into the people that run 25-30 removal spells/board wipes too often lately

[trail anvil]

I am too but at least most of the time this deck is resilient enough to punch through them

that's the joy of black aggro

[sleek ferry]

I’m just trying to get my party together and do funny party stuff smh

Ironically, they always remove tazri , which is fine

[trail anvil]

removal bait commanders are nice

I want to do 4fun commanders but the problem is wizards haven't put atraxa into hellqueue yet

etali is also just a coinflip tbh

[sleek ferry]

I actually have only ran into maybe 2 atraxas in like 50ish games

I usually run into the cascade simic commander, Sauron, or somebody else who’s slipping my mind right now

Oh samwise

[trail anvil]

I used to run into a lot more imoti but it's fallen off as of late for me

I see a lot of sauron, atraxa and etali

I used to see samwise too but nowadays I see more frodo sauron's bane, which is kinda annoying cause it's just a deck where you can't let that card connect or you lose the game instantly

[atomic harness]

I want dockside dead yeah

[twilit canyon]

norn banned no

but dockside legal?

yes

absolutely

[dense berry]

i want less stuff banned

i had posted my banlist changes id make earlier today somewhere

Ancestral Recall
Balance
Biorhythm
Black Lotus
Braids, Cabal Minion
Channel
Chaos Orb
Coalition Victory
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Erayo, Soratami Ascendant
Falling Star
Fastbond
Flash
Gifts Ungiven
Golos, Tireless Pilgrim
Griselbrand
Hullbreacher
Iona, Shield of Emeria
Karakas
Leovold, Emissary of Trest
Library of Alexandria
Limited Resources
Lutri, the Spellchaser
Mox Emerald
Mox Jet
Mox Pearl
Mox Ruby
Mox Sapphire
Panoptic Mirror
Paradox Engine
Primeval Titan
Prophet of Kruphix
Recurring Nightmare
Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
Shahrazad
Sway of the Stars
Sundering Titan
Sylvan Primordial
Time Vault
Time Walk
Tinker
Tolarian Academy
Trade Secrets
Upheaval
Yawgmoth’s Bargain

struck through are cards that would cause more problems than theyre worth or would homogenize the format in a significant way

everything else imo should be unbanned

[dense berry]

Ancestral Recall, time walk and tinker would be blue super staples. blue deserves nothing this good.

balance and limited resources would just make turn order advantage even worse than it is right now.

lotus and the moxes would homogenize the format into 4 or 5 color minimum.

channel in theory could be unbanned since you still need to draw a big mana payoff for it but its such a gross effect i dont personally see it as worth having around.

Chaos Orb and Falling Star involve manual dexterity and should be banned from mtg as a whole in the same way that cards with ante or silver borders just arent really in the game.

Griselbrand and Bargain would be black super staples and black doesn't deserve anything nearly that good.

Lutri is unnecessary additional advantage for decks with UR in the identity, bad for format homogenization.

Shahrazad is an awesome card but edh has mountains of problems involving match timer already so it would be better to keep it banned.

Time Vault in theory could be unbanned to replace thassas oracle as the A+B combo of the format so that any color can have access to the optimal wincon, but this would mean every deck would be taking different roads to get to the same destination. (ban thassas oracle)

[rich bronze]

I’m way newer to Yugioh than I am to magic

But having played runick I feel… underwhelmed somehow

I expected UW control

Doesn’t really feel like UW

[dense berry]

runick isnt really like any mtg control deck

[granite badge]

Yugioh in general just doesn't have control decks

its way easier to punch face and threaten lethal when most things are equivalent to 1/1s or 2/2s and you have 8(000) life

[modern minnow]

I don't get the emrakul ban
You like win the game if you sneak attack it in but like don't a lot of other cards also do that

[copper pecan]

i think it's more that annihilator 6 feels really bad to play against

commander's banlist isn't based around what's strong, it's based around what the rules committee thinks is fun

[waxen timber]

My biggest gripe with commander rules are:

1. you can't go over 100 cards
2. The basics you can play are limited by your color identity

[copper pecan]

i don't understand why you would want to do either of those things though

going over 100 cards makes your deck worse and there's no reason to play off color basics

[waxen timber]

Even if it makes my deck worse, I still would want to in some cases

[modern minnow]

I think we should be allowed hybrid that's like the most lukewarm commander take possible

[waxen timber]

Like in any other format you can go over. Like you could play 100 cards in draft if you wanted to

[lusty trench]

upheaval, leovold and gifts ungiven should 100% stay on that list

Nothing good comes from unbanning any of these 3

Braids as well

Library and rafelos can stay there for being reserved list (rest of the list should be there too)

[rigid scarab]

Does Blue really deserve Hullbreacher

[waxen timber]

There are so many reasons to play off color basics.

1. You are colorless
2. You want domain
3. You want to maxmize sunburst
4. You are a theft deck
5. More names for field of the dead

[lusty trench]

It doesn't at all

Tbh most of the commander banlist is "while it may not be meta shattering, in levels of play where they are viable, they feel like absolute shit to play against"

[atomic harness]

but why is dockside still allowed

also im not a bad timmy or anything I often run the most interaction in the table and I still think it's gross

[lusty trench]

Dockside is a card that scales with playgroups... Unless you loop it

I think it and thassas should just go tbh

[sleek ferry]

hell no

[rigid scarab]

Good

Dont unban it then

[sleek ferry]

hullbreacher was disgusting even within cedh

[atomic harness]

thank you jot

[lusty trench]

They both make for a narrow game win strat endgame and they're boring AF to go against

[sleek ferry]

thoracle is kinda fine tbh. Like yes it's probably the most common win con you will see at a cedh table, but like i don't mind it

just give us more ways to interact with thoracle, which we currently don't have

more good ways*

[lusty trench]

I don't want that tbh, more ways to interact with thoracle/dockside means more ways to interact with creature strategies

Which are currently mostly dogshit

[sleek ferry]

creature strats have been becoming increasingly more common in cedh since CL1. Slowly, but it's happening

combat step pre CL1 and post cl1 is also night and day

[golden plover]

https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/making-magic/state-of-design-2023?a

So according to MaRo stickers were a failure

Makes sense, and it's probably for the best they're not done again

He also notes the transformers cards being in Brother's War was a design mistake

[atomic harness]

I was about to say, yeah I really didnt like that as well

[golden plover]

Also notes that MOM's story happened too fast and that the phyrexians were defeated too easily

[atomic harness]

like the brother's war is such an important and ebic event, no reason to muddle it w more universes beyond crossover jank

[golden plover]

So hey, that's 3 good lessons. If they actually follow through with them

But like unironically those 3 lessons learned are 3 of the biggest ones people wanted from this year

That and "stop jacking the price crazy high" but that one won't happen

Hmm ya don't say

(about MOM Aftermath)

[zinc shard]

Ngl i completely forgot the Transformers cards were a thing

[lusty trench]

BITCHING WORKED

[sleek ferry]

I mean let’s be honest here

Every commander specific set they’ve made

Has been mostly a miss

Aside from CL1

[rigid scarab]

No one could ever have seen this coming

[golden plover]

Who'dve guessed that stickers fucking sucked?

[rigid scarab]

What's next

[golden plover]

What a terrible idea

[rigid scarab]

You're gonna tell me you can do infinite combos with Scurry Oak?

PFFFFFFT

[hidden ermine]

Ngl

A lot of these read like "no shit" kinda lessons

[golden plover]

Yeah most of the time the lessons feel better

Stuff like "we didn't realize the draft format was so polarizing"

But this year it's stuff like "don't put stickers on cards" and "don't make the sets bad"

[rigid scarab]

Also probably not a good idea to have eternal legal un-cards

And get rid of the fucking acorns

[golden plover]

He said that the eternal legal un card thing was both a pro and a con

Based on your opinion of it

[rigid scarab]

But the acorns he said was a straight up negative

[golden plover]

Yeah true

I figure they'd go back to silver border

Or just not do another unset

[rigid scarab]

Unsets are cool

I like seeing dumbfuck cards do dumbfuck things

Yeah I agree Toxic was a good rework of poison

Double the amount of cons as pros for Aftermath

[glad peak]

Eh at least they tried something and learned, some games just stagnate

Not to say they didn’t overshoot but

[sleek ferry]

Every mechanic is just kicker kid

[glad peak]

Sagas are my favorite kicker mechanic

[twilit canyon]

anyone wanna guess the reasoning behind casting a cantrip against 3 open black mana with a fable activation ready?

[glad peak]

Spell snare

[twilit canyon]

not legal in historic

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/976863983489384454/1135488337277370449/Screenshot_20230729-182604_Firefox.jpg

[fallow citrus]

hammer's back on the menu

https://www.reddit.com/r/ModernMagic/comments/15ejvbw/modern_super_qualifier_results_jul_30_2023/

[twilit canyon]

yaaaaaaa theros basics represent

[fallow citrus]

based unhinged forest

[copper pecan]

from what i can tell his issue with it wasn't the gameplay but the fact that it was a logistical nightmare to get the stickers printed in the first place

the company that was going to print the stickers went out of business so they had to delay the set by several months

for what it's worth i don't think the gameplay with them was horrible but it deffinitely wasn't worth the hassle

[golden plover]

I dunno, I don't think the gameplay justifies the hoops

But yeah, interesting to see the majority of mistakes this year are acknowledged as mistakes

[trail anvil]

wym like the copy ability?

[twilit canyon]

yes

[trail anvil]

I'm kinda confused what the cantrip has to do with this

[twilit canyon]

i flash in bowmasters

[trail anvil]

oh lmao

yeah can't be doing that in historic

[twilit canyon]

flash bowmasters, copy bowmasters with fable

on top of that

[trail anvil]

it's okay this card is being banned in 7 days trust

[twilit canyon]

bowmasters should not get banned for the health of the game

[golden plover]

Is it really healthy though when it becomes super centralizing?

Bans for super centralizing cards have happened prior

It'd make sense they kill this one too

[twilit canyon]

there will always be centralizing cards

i also dont think bowmasters is all that centralizing

in a world without w6, its fine even

bowmasters is the 1st time we have had true punishing for drawing cards at an efficient mana value

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/976863983489384454/1135488337277370449/Screenshot_20230729-182604_Firefox.jpg

reiterating

[sudden lava]

https://twitter.com/MTGSecretLair/status/1686059261552476174

MTG Secret Lair (@MTGSecretLair)

👀 who is she

Likes

409

▶ Play video

Twitter · Jul 31, 2023, 5:00 PM

[sleek ferry]

Also banning after the first big event has always struck me as lame tbh

[twilit canyon]

ring needs to go absolutely

but bowmasters is fine

[sleek ferry]

I agree on tor but I would still give it a decent chunk of time for the meta to try to develop around it

And by decent chunk of time I mean till next standard set

For alchemy though it might need to go sooner

[hidden ermine]

https://www.dexerto.com/gaming/mtg-head-says-future-magic-sets-to-only-feature-one-planeswalker-2229385/

So apparently its already officially confirmed that Bolas and the Phyrexians will return eventually

[sleek ferry]

Bolas returning was a given

[twilit canyon]

phyrexians returning will be weird

[sleek ferry]

But what phyrexians? Urabrask got demolished as did Vorinclex

[twilit canyon]

but i hope they actually emphasize on the whole thing that urabrask was doing

[sleek ferry]

Dudes got embarrassed

[twilit canyon]

all praetors are dead for what we know now

so i have no clue what they will do with that

[hidden ermine]

New leaders probably

[sleek ferry]

Yeah also, the way they went out kinda made them look foolish tbh

So let’s see what they do

Also isn’t the raven man supposed to play a key part in the upcoming story?

[sudden lava]

https://youtu.be/SMGaQEk0Igk

the commanders for this episode (Yarok is a "dungeon master")

Im rooting for Voxy to win

[sudden lava]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWV76E1f1_Y&pp=wgIGCgQQAhgB&ab_channel=MaldHound

[rigid scarab]

How against is everyone in terms of "Playing for second place" in edh

[golden plover]

I feel weird about it. Feels like a waste of everyone's time tbh

[lusty trench]

King maker scenarios are always kinda funky, so as long as you're not forcing them it's cool, but if your entire strat is "I want to make someone else win" its odd

[rigid scarab]

So grouphug?

[lusty trench]

Group hug isn't "I want to make someone else win", it's "I will give everyone mutual benefits and politic, this will drag the game on long enough for me to hit my win con"

[rigid scarab]

Well yeah that's what the goal of the deck is

[lusty trench]

If you're playing group hug specifically to let someone else win

[rigid scarab]

But in reality it just accelerates the strongest deck at the table

[lusty trench]

It's cringe

[golden plover]

Ehh that's not my vibe tbh

Like it's fine to group hug everyone

But people are gonna complain if you spend the whole time making the strongest player better

[sleek ferry]

kingmaking sucks

[golden plover]

Yeah no one really enjoys it

[sleek ferry]

knowing there's somebody that's clearly about to win and killing off the person whose fault it is is w.e though

[hidden ermine]

Im sure there are people who do enjoy it tbh

[golden plover]

I'm sure there are

[sleek ferry]

the person being made king enjoys it

[golden plover]

But most people don't enjoy it

You might as well be playing 2v1 archenemy at that point

[glad peak]

However a cedh format where the purpose is to get 2nd is interesting

Of course with the rule of no conceding

[rigid scarab]

In my eyes it's

You either win or you lose

[waxen timber]

I always play to win in EDH but, sometimes I play in ways to help my future victories

Like if someone unfairly targets me, I'll use whatever I have to go after them back

It may let the person who is in the lead ultimatly win the game because I am focusing my hate on someone else and that other person is hindered and might not have the resources to hit the person in the lead

But, if you only consider the current game, I think you will win less overall

[glad peak]

I’m moreso talking about cedh but everyone is going for second instead of first as the win condition

Not sure if there’s a game theory example for it but second place being the winner in multiplayer leads to a lot of interesting outcomes

[zinc shard]

What..

[copper pecan]

people asked for this

[trail anvil]

tbh it's not too bad a price

[zinc shard]

disagree about the price but oh well

[sudden lava]

https://youtu.be/hEdzWwDP1xA

[trail anvil]

what price do you want for a sleeve

[zinc shard]

300

cuz it was an april fools prank that got popular

[trail anvil]

it's literally a sleeve still lol

[zinc shard]

Its whatever, not gonna get upset over a cosmetic.

[trail anvil]

standard monored does good enough to get 3 wins ig

[atomic harness]

[sleek ferry]

Time for standard cope wednesdays kid @atomic harness

[waxen timber]

There has to be something better than karn living legacy. Card is so bad

Like Excavation Explosion is cheaper, is removal and karn probably will die when he has only made like 1 or 2 powerstones

[rich bronze]

Bought a playset of chalices

$133.99

pog

$33.5 per chalice good deal

[atomic harness]

why do I keep getting pinged here

hf with standard thugs

[sleek ferry]

[excavation explosion]

[[excavation explosion]]

[lost widget]

https://scryfall.com/card/bro/132/excavation-explosion

Excavation Explosion <:mana2:292901509060886528><:manar:292901508796645397>

Sorcery
Excavation Explosion deals 3 damage to any target. Create a tapped Powerstone token. (It's an artifact with ": Add . This mana can't be spent to cast a nonartifact spell.")
Urza's engineers could take weeks to dig out a powerstone. The goblins weren't so painstaking.

[sleek ferry]

Eh, I def rather Karn than excavation explosion

[sleek ferry]

I really fucking despise farewell

[sleek ferry]

https://twitter.com/saffronolive/status/1686693363666309121?s=46&t=DdUsqNPs-c3IFDRYOhiq8A

[sudden lava]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6IAArF2syM&ab_channel=TheCommandZone

6 mana turn 1

[rich bronze]

god

all of reddit is discussing a twin unban

honestly, im in

[trail anvil]

hasn't reddit always been discussing a twin unban

[rich bronze]

it'll be way worse but also fun for a while

than creativity

[rigid scarab]

How would this play out

Cedh

But you choose your starting hand

[twilit canyon]

3rd or 4th player wins

[dense berry]

it depends on if you know your seating or not

if youre going first you can likely get a value engine down but players knowing everyone has chosen their hand will likely prevent any turn 1 attempts

id imagine if you know you're going first in those situations its likely still be to just go land crypt study and hold up 2-3 counterspells

[rich bronze]

Not this fervently

In a while

[golden plover]

Would twin even be that crazy in modern now?

It's a 4 mana aura you can shut down with any interaction, right?

[sleek ferry]

I wonder if Karn will get hit in pioneer in the upcoming banlist

that would do a lot for the format

[golden plover]

Would be a good idea

Honestly, the card has been a big problem since release tbh

[sleek ferry]

Mono G devotion is kinda just making the format rough to play

They could do other hits, but Karn being gone probably opens up a lot of possibilities

[golden plover]

Yeah Karn dying makes Devotion fair

[twilit canyon]

karn dying kills devotion

[golden plover]

The deck can still do big ramp stuff

It just can't cheat in Ted for extra turns, have an out to anything it's losing to, and can't do whatever it feels like now

Obviously that makes it worse but I'm a lotus combo/greasefang player so do I care? Nah not really

[twilit canyon]

what do u ramp into that matters

[golden plover]

Yeah true

[sleek ferry]

People were saying nykthos hit as an alternative, but idk that sounds troll to me

[glad peak]

Bring the one ring into pioneer

[golden plover]

Nykthos being in the format at least allows for more unique decks

[sleek ferry]

I would agree with that to a certain extent

[golden plover]

There was a cool mono-black Devotion deck that topped once or twice

It's obviously nowhere near as strong as the green version

But it's neat

[sleek ferry]

Karn hit makes the most sense, mono G dying isn’t really a negative for the format

If anything it opens up possibilities

[golden plover]

Did the classic "big black creatures into promised End" thing

Yeah that's kinda how I feel

Losing devotion isn't a huge deal and letting stuff like that black deck still exist is fine

[sleek ferry]

Also like, a format without Karn that’s not alchemy would be interesting

That would already be a huge step to differentiate yourself from other formats

[golden plover]

True. Dude is seeing too much play everywhere

[zinc shard]

... Is someone gonna tell him?

[waxen timber]

Wiona to cheat in agent might be a fun deck

[golden plover]

Agent got banned for that kinda stuff

Weird he's still banned in historic tho

[rich bronze]

Thoughts on Hymn being in MH3

[twilit canyon]

absolutely not

ok wait this is just gut feeling speaking

hmm

i think still no bc of how its random. its just a feelbad card that modern magic players dont like

[golden plover]

2 mana to discard 2 is kinda really good

And isn't scam already really strong?

[twilit canyon]

discard 2 at random

its not like the 3 mana versions that let u choose

[golden plover]

Would let scam more consistently t2 empty your hand and run 16 discards if they wanted

[twilit canyon]

why would they

scam runs 8 discard spells

[golden plover]

Yeah 2 at random makes it a bit weaker, but it seems like it'd be a mistake

[twilit canyon]

maybe 10

no its 2 at random that makes it strong

[golden plover]

I mean, I figure they wouldn't go all the way to 16

I mean thoughtseize always hits their best card

This hits on average the two worst, but 2 mana to get 2 cards out of their hand feels crazy

[twilit canyon]

[[undercity plunder]]

[lost widget]

https://scryfall.com/card/yneo/15/undercity-plunder

Undercity Plunder <:mana1:292901508373282827><:manab:292901508872273920>

Sorcery
Target opponent discards a card. Then they may discard an additional card. If they don't, conjure a duplicate of a random card from their library into your hand. It perpetually gains "You may spend mana as though it were mana of any color to cast this spell."

[twilit canyon]

its not out there to see 2 mana discard 2

but the reason they let your opponent choose is bc of hymn

[golden plover]

It died in pauper for short lived pauper hand discard crimes

Very fun deck to just completely kill your hand t2

[twilit canyon]

yea and the issue is that it can discard lands

[golden plover]

Yup

[twilit canyon]

so your opponent can get mana screwed

[golden plover]

All the others specifically say non-land

[twilit canyon]

its a feelsbad card

[golden plover]

Dark ritual into losing your two lands in affinity was hell

"Gg man, game 2"

Unironically, hymn lead to some of the most toxic pauper decks while it was around

It got pre-banned when they officially recognized the format for MODO too

Same with [[Sinkhole]]

[lost widget]

https://scryfall.com/card/ema/106/sinkhole

Sinkhole <:manab:292901508872273920><:manab:292901508872273920>

Sorcery
Destroy target land.
High walls, a sturdy keep, a strong garrison . . . they made no difference. In a matter of moments, the city was lost.

[golden plover]

Hey maybe that's a card they can try in mh3

[glad peak]

wasn't sinkhole banned because it was never officially a common in modo?

mh3 hymn but it's a creature would be a decision

[golden plover]

That and because they recognized the format at the time and went "maybe sinkhole shouldn't be allowed"

Obviously pre-official pauper was before my time (although I've seen videos on it and am aware of what pre-official mono-black looked like with hymn)

But iirc, sinkhole was banned for good reason

[glad peak]

from what i remembered that was the only reason, i cant remember the other one but iirc that was either also banned or printed into common almost immediately after, which sinkhole obviously can't do anymore

[golden plover]

Wasn't it some blue card?

I can't remember what it was, but I think it got printed immediately after in a masters set

[glad peak]

I think so, but that was also banned for a bit (unofficially but not allowed in tournament play) until they decided to update it with sinkhole to prevent confusion

[sleek ferry]

i'm watching the barcelona finals

[glad peak]

If common sinkhole got printed into a masters set in modo I have a feeling they’ll unban it

[sleek ferry]

and holy shit that g2

[golden plover]

True. I feel like sinkhole isn't nearly as much of an issue as hymn was for the old mono-black hand hate deck

[twilit canyon]

they already printed tourach

[golden plover]

Luckily tourach is 4 mana to discard 2

I can't remember what else he has, but it's a kicker to get his hymn

It's what, pro white and blue?

[twilit canyon]

pro white

gets stats for discard

[golden plover]

Oh. That's worse than I remembered him being

And I remembered him being pretty bad

Hmm what if Hymn, but it gives them 2 treasures?

That way it doesn't feel as terrible to lose your lands on it

Still potential to screw you in the long run tho

[fallow citrus]

I just think we do not interact with hymn

let it rot in modern

[glad peak]

Make it 5 mana and discard 2 on etb and instead of evoke, it has convoke

[rich bronze]

If you had to give a “face” for every format that was popular at some point in time

What card would it be ( the “face” of the format )

Type 1 - Lotus

Type 1.5 - …FoW? Brainstorm close second

Standard - Sheol for now ig

EDH - sol ring

Modern - bolt

Pioneer - idk tbh probably Thoughtseize

Extended… idk probably some BS from Mirrodin

What did I miss

[golden plover]

Pauper is probably bolt or dark ritual

[rich bronze]

Pauper… yeah not bolt tbh taken by modern

Ritual maybe

[golden plover]

I guess ritual then

[rich bronze]

Actually

Maybe counterspell

[golden plover]

Ehh I dunno. I feel like I associate ritual more with pauper

[rich bronze]

Definitely one of the cards that screams “pauper isn’t that low power”

[golden plover]

Actually maybe [[Thoughtcast]]?

[lost widget]

https://scryfall.com/card/moc/242/thoughtcast

Thoughtcast <:mana4:292901508712890379><:manau:292901508754702338>

Sorcery
Affinity for artifacts (This spell costs less to cast for each artifact you control.)
Draw two cards.
Vedalken eyes don't see the beauty in things. They see only what those things can teach.

[rich bronze]

Along with petal and snuff

[golden plover]

Both sorta feel "pauper" to me

[rich bronze]

snuff sees a lot of legacy play

kinda funny

For a removal spell at common

[glad peak]

brainstorm again

[lusty trench]

Yeeeeeeees

[glad peak]

or before it was banned, astrolabe

[sleek ferry]

Pioneer is Karn def

[copper pecan]

mix up draft is back on arena

love mix up draft

[sleek ferry]

@golden plover @lusty trench sealed commander masters https://youtu.be/cDg8S1-KrLc

So apparently

For sealed commander masters

You can play 2 commanders?!

Keep that in mind @glad peak

[lusty trench]

set boosters

[sleek ferry]

Didn’t even notice lol

That actually explains why some of their packs were so cracked

Shame I was excited to see the actual draft environment

[golden plover]

Yeah that's weird they chose set boosters over draft

[lusty trench]

Probably just what they got sent and rolled with it

[golden plover]

True

[glad peak]

Yeah I already know

[atomic harness]

[stark pelican]

God I love commander

[rigid scarab]

I am fucking over

[lusty trench]

?

[rigid scarab]

You know how much this is in US

It converts to $130

[lusty trench]

Couldn't see the price tag for a sec, wtf

[rigid scarab]

This is about THREE TIMES the price precons usually are in Singapore

[sleek ferry]

This is how much I’m looking at

[fallow citrus]

Finally, some reasonable unban content

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PBuQhEsVSA

[lusty trench]

Cheeky boostie

[sleek ferry]

Sheesh, set or draft pack?

Either ways that’s a great pull

[lusty trench]

Draft

[rigid scarab]

Wow what a great pull

Now what if you pulled more

And got even more money back

Come on

Go ahead

Spend more money on packs

Do it

Do it

[sleek ferry]

sickle, you're projecting rn

[stark skiff]

https://tenor.com/view/yes-my-master-yes-lga-darth-vader-vader-gif-12858692

[rigid scarab]

I'm venting anger over my CMM precons being $130USD

[lusty trench]

I got another and got a cyclonic rift tyvm for the advice

[rigid scarab]

What a lucky streak

Perhaps it's your lucky day

Why not cash in while you still can

Keep going

[lusty trench]

I'm in a draft later so I'll let you know how that goes

[rigid scarab]

Keep going

[dense berry]

enjoy spending 130 dollars for 25 dollars worth of cardboard still not as bad as 30th anniversary edition

or that vlcsnap secret lair

[golden plover]

It's kinda insane how jacked up the prices were for the CMM precons

[lusty trench]

£50 I would've understood, £60 maybe

80

Nah I'm good

[rigid scarab]

80?

Try 130

[lusty trench]

That can't be retail

[golden plover]

Isn't $50 the standard now that all precons cost like $10-$20 more than they used to

But yeah, $60 is about what the LOTR ones cost and that was a bit more than I'd like, but it's acceptable

[lusty trench]

Idk anymore man I stopped buying precons after party time

[golden plover]

$80-$100 is INSANE

[rigid scarab]

You better fucking believe it

The highest precons have gone for in Singapore on release is like $48USD

[golden plover]

But these are the "premium" precons

Oh wait they're actually not premium

[sleek ferry]

I would only consider buying the colorless one

[rigid scarab]

I'm not even calling out the prices being high in general

That's been talked about more than enough

By why the random ass regional difference

[golden plover]

It's probably the second worst playing out of the box TBH

[sleek ferry]

yeah, but the new cards in it have actually the highest chance to go up

the insect is a new cedh staple for Zur

[dense berry]

it will give you about 15 dollars worth of cards you will use in an optimized colorless edh deck

[rigid scarab]

I don't think we should be looking at precons in terms of how much it gives you for high opt gameplay

[golden plover]

[[Skittering Cicada]]?

[lost widget]

https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/717/skittering-cicada

Skittering Cicada <:mana3:292901508771610624>

Creature — Insect
Flash
You may cast colorless spells as though they had flash.
Whenever you cast a colorless spell, until end of turn, Skittering Cicada gains trample and gets +X/+X, where X is that spell's mana value.
2/2

[golden plover]

How?

3 mana to flash in a rock sounds terrible

[golden plover]

I mean we should be looking at precons as either how good they are for gameplay out of the box or how good they are for reprints/new cards

[sleek ferry]

consider Zur's wincon in cedh

[golden plover]

All the precons seem terrible for both

[rigid scarab]

Well gameplay can mean different things for many people

[golden plover]

Isn't it usually Thoracle or aetherflux stuff?

I don't think aetherflux is helped by the bug

[rigid scarab]

Just because the only metric we have is cedh meta spreads doesn't mean it's the only metric we can go by

[golden plover]

I mean even for very casual decks, they're bad

[rigid scarab]

Tapped lands should be mostly a thing of the past though

[golden plover]

If you take it anywhere other than precon v precon, it kinda sucks

[rigid scarab]

I'll accept scrylands

Nothing more

[rigid scarab]

I think the way to measure that is taking the precon to LGS tables

And I'm specific when I say LGS tables

[golden plover]

At any LGS, these precons aren't gonna get far

[sleek ferry]

that's uh a bad metric to go by tbh

[rigid scarab]

Wait I actually lied when I said I'll only accept scrylands

I can accept bouncelands too

[sleek ferry]

the precons are specifically designed to go against each other first and foremost, other precons 2nd, and low power 3rd

[rigid scarab]

Honestly kinda true

Wow a good thugs take

But at such a high price I would expect them to be able to go against low power at a reasonable rate

[sleek ferry]

precons were never meant to be a "buy this deck and just play this deck as is forever", it was always meant to be, buy it, hopefully it's a strategy you enjoy, and from there, upgrade it

but i get you

at such a high price point

I'm not paying for a deck i have to put more money into

[golden plover]

They're supposed to be a starting point you can buy and be able to play a few games of magic

Something that can hold its own and get upgraded over time

[rigid scarab]

What's your definition on 'hold its own'

[golden plover]

Play against an average deck and not struggle the entire game

Like I don't mean cedh

[sleek ferry]

hold its own today is way different than it was 1-2 years ago. With more people playing high powered

[golden plover]

I mean just play against a couple people who made some okay decks

Yeah that's sort of a commander issue as a whole tho

[rigid scarab]

The 'average' is expontentially growing

And I don't think we can expect precons to accomodate

[golden plover]

But there's still plenty of people playing decent-okay decks

And the precons don't stand a chance against decent-okay decks

[rigid scarab]

What would you count as decent-okay today

[golden plover]

Stuff like an upgraded precon, commanders from recent sets upgraded by standard set cards, and guys who aren't very fine tuned/tribal

[sleek ferry]

we've actually gotten some viable CEDH commanders in recent precons

[rigid scarab]

I think the decks very much can have a reasonable game with upgraded precons

Of course it depends on how you define 'upgraded'

[sleek ferry]

we just recently got probably the best mardu commander

[golden plover]

Like unoptimized Isshin, Arcades, Tovolar kinda stuff

[sleek ferry]

in a precon

[golden plover]

I mean that's always been the case. Elsha, the partners, Breya, and a few others were precons

Hell, Elsha came in the same precon as dockside

[rigid scarab]

I'm still of the stance that these precons can very much stand against low power

Even if my own definition of low power is getting more and more phased out

Again, once proxies are accepted worldwide, I can probably expect a lot of LGS tables to look like Tabletop Simulator lobbies

[sleek ferry]

[[dihada binder of wills]]

[lost widget]

https://scryfall.com/card/dmc/1/dihada-binder-of-wills

Dihada, Binder of Wills <:mana1:292901508373282827><:manar:292901508796645397><:manaw:1007102126813610074><:manab:292901508872273920>

Legendary Planeswalker — Dihada
+2: Up to one target legendary creature gains vigilance, lifelink, and indestructible until your next turn.
−3: Reveal the top four cards of your library. Put any number of legendary cards from among them into your hand and the rest into your graveyard. Create a Treasure token for each card put into your graveyard this way.
−11: Gain control of all nonland permanents until end of turn. Untap them. They gain haste until end of turn.
Dihada, Binder of Wills can be your commander.
Loyalty: 5

[sleek ferry]

yes they can

and they should

i hate assigning numbers to commander decks

but precons are usually the most 4-5 decks ever

which is usually the level of low power

[rigid scarab]

Well for plenty of people

7 is low power

[sleek ferry]

7-8 is when you're getting into high powered level technically

9-10 is cedh and the only difference between those 2 ratings should be optimization

[lusty trench]

Cedh is a completely different game to edh

[sleek ferry]

it's not lol

[lusty trench]

It absolutely is

[dense berry]

its like playing melee with tech vs playing melee without tech

[sleek ferry]

nobody in casual edh is ever going to be like "hey i have a power level 10 deck"

[lusty trench]

No because everyone says their deck is a 7

[sleek ferry]

anyways, this is why i hate the rating system

[lusty trench]

Because the numbers mean absolutely nothing

[dense berry]

agreed rating is bogus

[sleek ferry]

Most people who think their deck is an 8, usually ends up playing like a 6 anyways

[dense berry]

cedh there is only 1 rating

[sleek ferry]

people have no sense of power

[golden plover]

Yeah it's way better to say what your deck's commander, goal, and combos are than go "oh it's a 7"

Because your 7 might be Lathril with a Gaea's Cradle and someone else's 7 might be fully optimized Thrasios Tymna

[dense berry]

and player skill still matters a lot regardless

[golden plover]

Exactly

You could be playing fully optimized Thrasios Tymna and not know how to use it

[glad peak]

Or you can be some people in my group and call “cards I have” pile a power level 7

[rigid scarab]

I think the issue of the power scale moreso the problem of

How generous are people in their personal 1-10 scale for everyday life

Is it like

YMS

Or IGN

[golden plover]

It's moreso no one wants to say their deck is bad

Or wants to say their deck is too strong

[rigid scarab]

I think people are generally humble with their decks

It's just that

No one can agree on an objective 10 point scale

People give things they think are meh a 7/10

And others give things they think are very much good a 6/10

[golden plover]

It's also because a lot of edh players are bad at assessment

[twilit canyon]

https://cards.scryfall.io/large/front/6/7/675213bb-28d7-460c-a4f3-950f5b9090af.jpg?1690542581

https://cards.scryfall.io/large/front/e/e/eed204e1-45bd-4160-aaef-dde33bd9884a.jpg?1673485602

restless fortress is castle ardenvale

[sudden lava]

No

[twilit canyon]

didnt ask

[sudden lava]

they arent remotely close other then being white and entering tapped

[hidden ermine]

Summer is actually kinda right

The architecture doesnt match

Restless fortress has sharp spires, whereas ardenvales are much more rounded off, and the ratio of the top to mid segment of the central tower is nowhere near similar

[twilit canyon]

same flags, same circular tower in the center

[hidden ermine]

Uh, neither of them are the same

The flags are harder to say

But Ardenvales are clearly triangular, whereas Restless' look either rectangular

[twilit canyon]

its the same tower

and this is post-phyrexian invasion

[hidden ermine]

Or like swallowtails

And the tower ratio is way off

Ardenvales lower segment is much bigger than restless fortresses'

If this is intended to be the same structure its way off-model

[twilit canyon]

someone is asking wotc if it is in the mtg discord

so we'll know soon enough

[hidden ermine]

But yeah, towers being sharper with a concave rather than convex towertop

[twilit canyon]

different artist

[hidden ermine]

Makes me think if it is meant to be the same

They just got it rather off-model

[twilit canyon]

theres even the same bridge structure collapsed leading to the restless fortress

[hidden ermine]

Those are meant to be bridgeparts?

They look more like walls from ruined buildings

[twilit canyon]

yep looks like the same bridge parts leading up to ardenvale from the right

[golden plover]

If they're supposed to be the same place, it's super off model

[lusty trench]

This was my draft

[golden plover]

Jesus

What did you go with, Gruul?

[lusty trench]

Yeah

[golden plover]

Smart

[sudden lava]

I wasnt even referring to art

[golden plover]

What?

[sudden lava]

I was saying there effects are very different

[lusty trench]

I am very happy with my pulls today

[golden plover]

I mean, obviously?

Even the same character gets different effects on prints

Same character, 2 vastly different effects

[sudden lava]

yes, I know

you are missing the entire point of what Im saying

[golden plover]

Am I?

"These two cards have different effects" doesn't disqualify them from being the same character

This

[sudden lava]

The way I read it was different

[golden plover]

And this are the same land

But they do completely different things

[trail anvil]

this in hbrawl when

[sudden lava]

Im not talking about if the castle is the same castle

[golden plover]

Then what are you saying?

[sudden lava]

"they arent remotely close other then being white and entering tapped"

I thought they were saying mechanically (besides giving white mana) they were the same

when no, one becomes a creature and the other makes tokens

[trail anvil]

well they're not remotely the same mechanically yeah

none of these cards are

[sudden lava]

exactly, when I wrote my comment it didnt even register in my mind the two castles are the same building in lore, I looked at mechanically only

[sleek ferry]

Tbh I’m very interested in what they do with the new land cycle

There’s always 1 that stands out above the rest

[sudden lava]

Im excited for the capybara card and the Elsa one

[trail anvil]

the art is cool but harrowing

[sudden lava]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F2HyAN-XsAAGEPS?format=jpg&name=900x900

Beautiful art

[sleek ferry]

Looks like Elsa

[sudden lava]

I mean, literally the same story

[rich bronze]

and both are busted

xd

[lusty trench]

okay so after drafting it I can confirm: commander masters is a fun as hell draft, but £40 for it is too much

[sudden lava]

https://www.magicspoiler.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/Bad-Wolf-Bay-Doctor-Who-Spoiler-1.png

So yeah saw the episode

|| at least she has her family and a little sibling on the way, but damn did that season end off on a sad note||

[copper pecan]

played mixup draft and went 7-1

felt great

haven't had that much fun playing mtg in a long time

[dense berry]

just got the collectors booster box in

its hilarious its the size of a normal booster box

this set is the most deceptively marketed shit ever

[polar lake]

commander deck idea: Maralen as the commander
98 lands and a Opposition Agent

[rich bronze]

Any suggestions? I’m on 3 boseiju sb cuz tron

[twilit canyon]

i actually like splitting some spell pierce with stern scolding. like 3:1

[rich bronze]

hmm… just think that the 4th spell piece provides more utility than the first scolding… we have other ways to deal with creatures, albeit not countering them

[twilit canyon]

yea for sure. but sometimes you do need that hard counter on solitude

[rich bronze]

Yeah but that’s a one of in your deck with a unique effect

If you need a certain effect

You wanna have more than one of it in your deck tbh

one feels off

[twilit canyon]

i like the utility of it being a 1 of since it can be a dead draw and fable helps find cards

[dense berry]

unreachable silver bullets are bad

[rich bronze]

^

[rich bronze]

This is the “I want it sometimes but not always” mentality

That’s just mathematically wrong

You either wanna see a card or don’t

[twilit canyon]

maybe so. but it rewards blind luck which i like leaning on at times.

[rich bronze]

so if you run it you’ll wanna see it come up

Maybe, but from a mathematical perspective it doesn’t make much sense to run one of a given effect

[twilit canyon]

oh i guess it also depends on context on if ur playing open decklist or not

1 of in open decklist is really funny at psyching opponents out

[rich bronze]

Open deck list changes things from a mindgames perspective

But even then, you’re relying on people being people

Not robots

[twilit canyon]

in any case, my justification for 3:1 is very much just gut feeling coupled with preference in a deck with a lot of ways to dig.

[rich bronze]

Fair enough, it won’t do too much harm, just saying that it’s probably slightly -EV

[twilit canyon]

though personal preference: im not really into reprieve too much.

[rich bronze]

to run only one of an effect

If the effect is good you’ll want more than 1 if it’s bad you’ll want 0

[twilit canyon]

spell pierce has diminishing returns as the game goes on a lot of times and drawing too many pierce can suck, so sometimes drawing the 1 of scolding to protect an archon can be good

[rich bronze]

So 1 is basically always suboptimal

[rich bronze]

Again “I want it sometimes but not always” fallacy

[twilit canyon]

and it does catch a lot of cards in modern atm such as solitude, ragavans dashed, bowmasters, yawgmoth hardcast

[rich bronze]

The math on this stuff has been done 10000 times

[rich bronze]

Also why don’t you like reprieve

[twilit canyon]

personal issue with 2 mana counters in modern that dont outright counter the spell. it can be awkward vs bowmasters too

tho tbf this is coming from a place of "i play vs sheoldred bowmasters almost every other game"

so cantrip/draws really suck in my meta

some modern spells are also just efficient enough to be able to ignore reprieve later in the game

in a similar boat to what i find spell pierce often falls into

idt reprieve is bad, i just dont like running em myself

[rich bronze]

hmm maybe

We don’t have any sheoldred in the meta

Are you playing coffers

And UB control

Every other game

[twilit canyon]

similarly, my meta really gets eaten up by stern scolding

nope

well coffers a bit

but mostly scam

[rich bronze]

uhhh

Y’all scam decks run sheol?

[twilit canyon]

in the side

its pretty popular

some ppl run her main

as 1 of

[rich bronze]

Wouldn’t say so, only one guy here has 1 in the main

And that’s it

Not enough to not consider reprieve imo

[twilit canyon]

last modern prelim had 5 shelly in the side between 2nd 3rd and 4th place scam lists

i guess "pretty popular" is strong in scam

but its definitely ran

[rich bronze]

Also

Reprieve isn’t a counter

That’s like… a big selling point

😛

Reprieve I mean

[twilit canyon]

reprieve

yes

has the same function as one though

the tempo gain can be huge for sure

[rich bronze]

It goes around uncounterable

So

[twilit canyon]

yep

i guess it beats up cavern of souls decks well

[rich bronze]

Yep

[twilit canyon]

oh i see why ppl are more on sheoldred in the side right

jake won with 2 in the side

[rich bronze]

People copying pt lists

Fair enough I guess

[twilit canyon]

but yeah fun that stern scolding counters 90% of creatures in scam including grief. i find its a solid card in my meta.

[rich bronze]

Homely I’d avoid building scam

Rn

[twilit canyon]

i will never deny the value of spell pierce though

oh yeah for sure

[rich bronze]

What decks do you play?

[twilit canyon]

ring is very likely gone but bowmasters may go with

[rich bronze]

Creativity and?

[twilit canyon]

murktide

and burn

tbf

[rich bronze]

Same

[twilit canyon]

i have been playing a lot more burn as of late

[rich bronze]

Join the burn discord

It’s very active

[twilit canyon]

im in the legacy burn discord but not the modern burn discord for some reason lmao i think i just never bothered cus i used to never be active on discord

[rich bronze]

Fair, look it up on r/lavaspike

What I like the most about creativity is that we run no bad cards

[twilit canyon]

but yea my lgs atm is very into yawg and scam

a fair bit of coffers

[rich bronze]

Yawg huh

Good deck but didn’t do well at the pt

[twilit canyon]

we had a ton of the rock players

so a lot of them saw scam and yawg and dusted off the ole bloodstained mires and verdants

[rich bronze]

Y’all definitely don’t have the typical meta

I’d say

Tron?

[twilit canyon]

its partly a nostalgia thing for a good chunk of players

oh yeah we have tron players

tron, creativity, murktides, hammer, elementals, rhinos, living end

all present

just not as much as scam or yawg atm

few ppl still grinding deaths shadow and shit

few mill

not often

and im usually on murktide or burn nowdays

i have creativity ready though

[rich bronze]

mhm

[meager isle]

Man’s pile of lands is bigger than his deck

[trail anvil]

god this was so satisfying

[rigid scarab]

I came up with

The grandest conspiracy theory

Ever

So chat

We all know CMM sucks right

The prices are so fucking bad

That even the channel that's about as closely partnered with WOTC as you can get is talking down on its precons

Talking down on the current product

So hear me out

About a month after the set releases

After all the draft hype, preorders and initial buys

WOTC announces

A price cut

Opens the floodgates to get way more Commander Masters sold

And theoretically skyrockets PR

[copper pecan]

stores wouldn't like that

[glad peak]

Stores already paid initial price for all their product, wotc lowering prices won’t help stores or customers

[copper pecan]

they'd be losing a ton of money off of it if they were told to cut prices after they already bought a bunch of the product

[rigid scarab]

Of course this is completely dead in the water if

The rumor about stores having to buy boxes at I think the listed $400 is true

[rigid scarab]

Stores are losing money off of the boxes collecting dust in storage

I think WOTC should be smart enough to know that most of their playerbase would be vehemently against boxes

At $400

[copper pecan]

most of the playerbase doesn't buy boxes

or know how much a box costs

[rigid scarab]

Most of their playerbase who otherwise would buy a box

[copper pecan]

lowering the price after vendors already bought the set isn't going to fix the situation

[rigid scarab]

But you see

WOTC's recent moves have made it clear that they don't care about LGS'

Even if the move is to the detriment of non-premium LGS'

It's to the benefit of PR towards players who don't know any better

[rigid scarab]

And also stores losing money per box after lowering the prices of a box is a given

I'm arguing that the rate of box purchases should make it so that the net loss would be about the same

Between a few people buying boxes at high prices vs a good deal of people buying boxes at mid prices

[copper pecan]

i think you're vastly overestimating how many players even know about this situation in the first place

[golden plover]

I think the best you'll see is amazon willing to sell it for under "MSRP" in the future

That's what's going on with double feature, Baldur's Gate, and a couple other dud sets

But LGSes had to pay full price

And they're fucked. They're stuck with boxes and precons they can't sell

[rigid scarab]

What have current LGS' been relying on to stay afloat

Other than 'other card games'

Because there has to be a business-perspective reason as to why your store would buy MTG in this year

[copper pecan]

if your entire store is based on selling exactly one brand of one product then you're bad at business

[rigid scarab]

Is it just like

[copper pecan]

don't put all your eggs in one basket like that

[rigid scarab]

Events, tabletop, and accessories?

[golden plover]

Most LGSes around me either make their money off non-magic card games, board games, or have food attached

[rigid scarab]

Then why run MTG

[golden plover]

Magic is not cutting it for LGSes now with how much they've gotta pay for all the product

[rigid scarab]

From a business standpoint

[golden plover]

Because MTG has been around forever and if you don't run it, people will complain and go to a store that does

It's a lose/lose

[rigid scarab]

But the people who complain about no more magic probably weren't gonna be playing other games you run anyways

And those people who leave probably won't be the same loss as however big a loss you take on running MTG

[copper pecan]

because most of the products still sell well

lotr was the 2nd highest selling set they've ever put out

[rigid scarab]

And you would call that a profit for the LGS'

[copper pecan]

yes?

they're selling tons of it

as much as people on the internet complain, the game is more popular now than it ever has been

one set being poorly received doesn't mean the game is dying

[rigid scarab]

This is true

It's just

I see the backlash on bad MTG sets being way grander than other TCGs

Like if Yugioh makes a bad product

That's because it doesn't impact the metagame

If MTG makes a bad product

It's because they bombed a factory or smth

[copper pecan]

mtg's community takes the game way more seriously than other tcg communities do from my experience

i don't think i've ever seen wotc announce anything without people saying that it will kill the game

even the really good sets get this kind of reaction

when innistrad was first announced people thought that double faced cards would kill the game

and now that set is considered one of the best sets ever

[rich bronze]

I mean has any other TCG sent the Pinkertons to people who opened packs early

[golden plover]

Lmao true

[rigid scarab]

But did that kill the game

[golden plover]

The worst yugioh does is ban you from a tournament

The worst magic does is send a private detective agency to harass you over cards

[rich bronze]

A private detective agency that killed lotsa people

[rigid scarab]

Talking about Pinkertons is so June

We've moved on to high prices now

[golden plover]

True. I mean they obviously weren't gonna kill him, but there's the history there

Hell, it's been high prices since New Capenna

When they went "it's hard to make money off this so we're adding 10% to the price of everything"

[rigid scarab]

To be fair

If Yugioh bans you from an official event

And you enter the premises of an official event happening

They are legally allowed to file a trespassing lawsuit

[golden plover]

Yeah but that's the case for any event

[rich bronze]

Sure but who cares

[golden plover]

And realistically, that's pretty normal

[rich bronze]

Trespassing is like whatever

[golden plover]

Like if you get kicked out of a furry con or whatever and show up next year, they'll escort you out and maybe get the police involved

That's not a yugioh exclusive thing

[rich bronze]

I think you’re the only person in this convo who’d ever be found at a furry con

Tbf

😛

[rich bronze]

Would the people escorting you out be dressed in fursuits

That would be pretty funny

[golden plover]

I mean I just picked a con as an example that's not card game related

The point is, if you do something to get banned from any event, they'll call the cops if you try it again

[rigid scarab]

I was gonna say that

I can't think of anything Yugioh did that's not especially egregious as compared to other TCGs

And then I remembered

The company that manages Yugioh

[golden plover]

Konami is an awful company yeah

[rich bronze]

Komoney

[golden plover]

But they're at least sorta reasonable when it comes to yugioh

Pokemon probably does the best job of managing their TCG at the end of the day

[rich bronze]

Yep

[rigid scarab]

They've had some like

[rich bronze]

Honestly wotc are lucky that magic is fundamentally a very good game

[rigid scarab]

Sets that are bad

[rich bronze]

Hard to fuck it up

[golden plover]

But it's gotta go:
-Pokemon

-Yugioh

-Magic