Magic the Gathering

[twilit canyon]

opens are still pretty huge especially after covid

since they have garnered a lot of players as a result

[hidden ermine]

The last open was 4 days ago and won by Chord

[twilit canyon]

and a lot of grinders

[hidden ermine]

Scales was top 4

[twilit canyon]

i see scales as 2nd behind yawgmoth

[hidden ermine]

But it was like, 400 players in Texas, thats about as many players as a regional gets

Hunter Burton Memorial Open?

Thats the last one I see

[twilit canyon]

yes

[hidden ermine]

https://mtgmelee.com/Tournament/View/13072

Yawgmoth is what I called Chord since its basically a Chord toolbox

Second was Belcher

Scales was joint 3rd/4th

[clever sun]

Goldfish has been dropping the ball on proper coverage lately

[twilit canyon]

yea i was looking at goldfish

they had scales at undefeated along with yawg

[hidden ermine]

Ah

Yeah I use mtgtop8 since they tend to link their sources

Makes it easier to check if they fucked up

[twilit canyon]

this weekend will have the nrg showdown too

my bet will be a good turnout for many modern decks and archetypes

[hidden ermine]

Is there genuinely no replacement for GPs anymore btw?

[twilit canyon]

some friends who are going are gonna be bringing a variety of decks cus the meta is wide open enough to do so

[hidden ermine]

I assumed it would be the magic fest thing

But we havent had those in a while

[twilit canyon]

magicfest yea but tournaments for modern and pioneer are much more numerous and a bit smaller

before a bigger one every quarter?

every official event has serious implications however so they arent like regionals in yugioh

[clever sun]

Yeah it is hard to make a direct comparison to Yugioh with Modern right now

Because Modern, at it's core, is infinitely more forgiving to off-meta decks

and rewards pilot skill and deck familiarity over anything else

It's why you see stuff like Infect

[hidden ermine]

Pretty sure ygo regionals give points for worlds qualification, dont they?

[clever sun]

Mono-Blue Tron

E-Tron

[clever sun]

Yes but no cash prizes

So most people who go, are never planning to go to worlds

Versus in Magic, the Chicagoland NRG Showdown this weekend is $10k in prize money

It's effectively a regional

But winner will take home a lot of cash

So competitive aspirations are much higher

[hidden ermine]

Unless things have changed since I played constructed, dont most people playing MTG events also play them for fun rather than for the cash prize?

... though that too might be back when we had GPs

[clever sun]

Yes but there is a baseline aspiration to spike an event when there is actual money on the line

Especially for Modern

Since commander has largely absorbed the casual event goers

[hidden ermine]

That makes sense I suppose

[clever sun]

What's left is more people who largely want to win cash prizes and maybe it pays for their vacation to whatever event they went to

and then some

[hidden ermine]

Explains why even the bigger events are only roughly Regional-sized rather than YCS sized

[clever sun]

Regional sized but more competitive than a YCS even

I went to an NRG event previously and it was as competitive as it gets for a lot of Magic

[hidden ermine]

Somewhat adjacent topic, but why are competitive magic players not in love with tier 0 like competitive YGO players seem to be?

[lusty trench]

I couldn't play competitively cause I get nervous and make clumsy mistakes, that and I am just severely lacking on game knowledge

[twilit canyon]

wym?

as in ygo pros liking tier 0 formats?

[hidden ermine]

Yeah, YGO players seem to like them because you can prepare better, but Ive never seen the same with magic pros

[twilit canyon]

its cus tier 0 formats are inherently unhealthy but while ygo only has 1 real format

if a format gets dull they just go to another

[hidden ermine]

I mean its the unhealthy part, that being that you can tailor your deck to just a few specific matchups, that seems to appeal to them

[twilit canyon]

i guess?

u can do that with magic anyhow

and rt u can do this in ygo too with any format not just tier 0 formats

tier 0 formats is probably just pros going "im more likely to face other pros who i know"

aka they play ygo vs ppl they know already

[sleek ferry]

Ygo players have made the assumption that one deck being by far the best deck = best player always wins with little volatility involved

But like not only is that wrong, it’s counter intuitive to the entire concept of tcg’s

I always looked at modern as the model of what a healthy format looks like

10+ viable decks, the more represented decks reward the pilot for the ability to be able to handle a multitude of threats

Also the gap between tier 1 and rogue in most ygo formats is massive

[twilit canyon]

this is the modern meta rn yea

more than 10+ decks

best deck has notable weaknesses and can be exploited by non-meta

merfolk and azorius control can run circles over creativity for example

[glad peak]

Merfolk and azorius control in the murktide matchup

[twilit canyon]

they play the pro red merfolk in and pray

snapcaster mage circa 2023

[lusty trench]

I'm literally just picking one up for edh funny hahas

Not even buying it, trading it for shit I don't even need any more

[twilit canyon]

snapcaster is not correct here. but its a fave card so

in he goes

[twilit canyon]

speaking of pet cards.... both arlinn and huntmaster are some of my favorite rg cards

so i built a shell based around the rg vehicles pioneer deck for historic

with molten impacts, minsc and boos

[atomic harness]

Low ryn

[zinc shard]

I have been in this game for what feels like an hour

I lost 😦

[twilit canyon]

thats control mirrors yea

[sleek ferry]

@atomic harness when can we get a full deck pic

[rigid scarab]

What are our thoughts on people who basically

Pretend to be salty

In about any game

[fallow citrus]

wdym

[rigid scarab]

Prime example being

Someone in EDH is playing a commander where

If they get to swing with it they win

Or untap with it

They play it, it immediately gets removed

Then the guy gets explosively salty

Not wanting to deal with that, the other players decide to hold their removal

Then that guy's commander sticks the second time and they win

Using salt as like

An intimidation tactic ig

[trail anvil]

they drag down play groups singlehandedly sometimes

[rigid scarab]

It happens all the time with like

Jodah specifically

[copper pecan]

https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/11zbe2w/secret_lair_x_dungeons_dragons_honor_among_thieves/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

new cards

xenk seems pretty fun

probably good in a rafiq commander deck

[lusty trench]

Me reading forge: "what, a treasure when anyone sacs are creature that's sic- this ability only triggers once each turn -oh"

Simon and xenk seem like the best ones here

Doric isn't awful either

[glad peak]

They’re all pretty bad sadly

Edgin is interesting since it’s kind of hard to judge how good giving everything foretell is

[lusty trench]

They seem like okay build around commanders

Something you do for fun

[copper pecan]

yeah these cards shouldn't be super strong

[glad peak]

It would be better if they were at least playable though

Since right now it feels more like they were designed for draft play and they’d be great there

[rigid scarab]

I'd rather not have playable cards be in a hyper limited set that's only available for like 1 day

Playable promos have never gone well

[glad peak]

Aren’t they going to be putting Mtg appropriate reprints on the list and keep this as limited promos?

[rigid scarab]

Tell that to The Walking Dead

[glad peak]

That was literally the reason why they changed the policy

And they’re not gonna give us magic equivalents to the walking dead because the policy changes after

[rigid scarab]

Oh wow

And they specified Secret Lair because they can't make in-universe versions of Warhammer or LOTR

But they can't make them secret lairs because

IG those companies gave them just too much money

[glad peak]

They did give warhammer a secret lair, it was card skins

[rigid scarab]

Ah

So Games Workshop went the extra mile

[sudden lava]

oh they made a secret lair based off the movie characters, interesting

[trail anvil]

supposedly this is a story spoiler so... spoiler ig

[golden plover]

Definitely not a fan of the art of them (don't like real actors on MTG cards) but the UW versions might be cool

[golden plover]

I love how this feels like an old Planeswalker

I think she's actually really strong at 4 mana?

[trail anvil]

yeah very classic style, and good at stabilizing

[golden plover]

Her uptick protects her, and if it sticks around becomes a 3/3 flier body you can repeatedly make

And the ult wins you the game if you get it

I think she's probably gonna see some play in some formats

[trail anvil]

idk if your grave is loaded enough maybe

not sure which decks you'd run her in in standard cause stuff like monowhite is packed, but maybe you include her

[golden plover]

She's really good for midrangey stuff

Like imagine turning Sheoldred into a 6/7 angel

I see a lot of talk on Reddit about how she's bad, but I think she's probably a lot better than expected

[hidden ermine]

Wait, what is that from?

[golden plover]

Reddit also famously thought new Sheoldred was "just a siege rhino side grade"

[hidden ermine]

I mean

Siege Rhino was busted in standard

Anyway this card is ... hm

Basically all about her ult

[glad peak]

She’s good in control but what recent 4 drop white planeswalker isn’t

[sudden lava]

I dont know why Doric can transform into an owlbear

but it is cool

I'll consider these for when I make my D&D commander deck

[trail anvil]

but siege rhino was strong during its standard too

[lusty trench]

My thoughts on Elspeth is she's whatever but like, I play edh with people who are hostile to planeswalkers

So the planes walker has to be cracked for me to consider it

[trail anvil]

it's a repeated siege rhino, I think a bigger thing is that removal is kinda less direct this format which really helps it as a card

[glad peak]

Siege rhino was also strong during modern during its modern just like sheoldred

[lusty trench]

In standard this card is probably real good

[trail anvil]

the lifelink pairs super well with wedding announcement

[copper pecan]

yeah idk why people are saying this is bad

it seems fine

[golden plover]

People are bad at evaluating walkers

Most of the time, it's people who only play edh

[twilit canyon]

she is not as good as emperor

and going up further, minsc and boo is the best walker atm

so idk where she goes

[lusty trench]

On a scale of one to ten where 1 is tibalt and 10 is minsc and boo

I think she's like a 5-6?

[twilit canyon]

probs

story spoiler

[golden plover]

So Sheoldred is dead, ||Urabask is dead (that one sucked he didn't even get a final fuck you), Jin has no arms, and Norn and Vorinclex are both damaged||

[twilit canyon]

elspeth is very cool this story

all this set up with ashiok

ashiok saved the multiverse

they singlehandedly caused norn to falter from phyrexia with the nightmare

and now norn became too blind to lead it

jin was right at multiple points

her shortsightedness with sheoldred and urabrask will likely cost them

her damaging of vorinclex as well

she undid phyrexia bc of a nightmare

[trail anvil]

https://i.redd.it/who-would-win-an-eldritch-horror-or-a-gardening-tool-v0-8tl4wznwmkpa1.jpg?s=3bdf96d690d469be9302d25448c77edf74fe228d

[twilit canyon]

[zinc shard]

What'd they break now

[hidden ermine]

Citizens Crowbar and the Kunai

Both of them have a bug where instead of sacrificing the equipped creature

[copper pecan]

any equipment that has an effect that taps the equipped creature as the cost

[hidden ermine]

They sacrifice your entire board, lands included

And copy the effect for each sacrifice

This means that with 7 permanents, Kunai is an OTK

[zinc shard]

Ahhh

I knew about the pickaxe not the other card

[glad peak]

Honestly that would be a sick errata to kunai

[waxen timber]

My favorite way to kill in Vintage is bolas's citadel sac 10 permanents including citadel, cast yawg's will, cast citadel from grave, sac another 10 permanents for the full 20.

[twilit canyon]

i trust her

i dont trust him

[lusty trench]

The woman is completely valid in this picture

Is it late enough in the day to call lukka a cringefail guy?

I think it is

[golden plover]

I dunno, I don't think bonding with a big phyrexian tree should work right

[lusty trench]

Have you considered just being stronger than the tree?

[golden plover]

New card shop I went to gave me the phyrexian white counter as a door prize

[lusty trench]

Like just powering up?

[twilit canyon]

better than anything lukka has ever done

[golden plover]

Its pretty but I'm kinda sad they switched from just sliding plastic to springs

It feels more likely to break than the one I've had since Khans

Oh shit nice

[lusty trench]

I love top heavy prizing in multiplayer events

[golden plover]

That's really weird

The phyrexian live counters are definitely better, even if they're cheaper feeling than the old ones

[lusty trench]

They said something about contracts but I know plenty of lgs' that give them out like candy

[twilit canyon]

they also will be delaying the pioneer challenge

[golden plover]

Love it

Isn't this also the one where they won't do anything about the thief?

[lusty trench]

Yup

[golden plover]

Eww

[lusty trench]

I'm not pressed on it tbh, just means I spend less money now which is probably a good thing

I only pay for Digimon night now cause the Digimon community there rocks

[fallow citrus]

every time I see new Elspeth I become slightly more gay for women in armour

[lusty trench]

People in armour do be looking good, I am glad Elspeth stepped up with Gideon out of the picture

[strong quartz]

They did it for the lulz

[strong quartz]

Only cool thing he did was Turing into a flesh giant before completely forgetting he's on the plane of instant mutations and couldn't force them with how much shit he had in him

[twilit canyon]

https://twitter.com/jay13x/status/1639003393891893252

Jay Annelli, the Worst (@jay13x)

Okay, since it's basically impossible to avoid #Spoilers at this point, I'm just gonna post the thread. Full article about this soon!

Let's talk about the reveal in Episode 6: Last to Leave by @ArsenaultRivera #vorthos #mtgmom

https://t.co/NaQ6mcDxU8

Likes

317

Twitter · Mar 23, 2023, 8:37 PM

[last glen]

Random question
Is there a card that lets you check the opponent's hand and shuffle one card into their deck?

[rigid scarab]

[[Perish the Thought]]

Uh

[modern minnow]

Can someone explain why 30th anniversary duals are worth more than revised ones and collectors edition ones
I don't get mtg finance

[copper pecan]

there are less of them

[modern minnow]

Oh yeah that makes sense

[atomic harness]

time to buy revised ones

[lusty trench]

Wrenn card spoiler

This is just... Incredibly good what

[fallow citrus]

yeah not bad

[lusty trench]

I mean passive ability on its own is good, second ability is very good, and final ability is very very cool

[glad peak]

It seems

Fine

It’ll hinge on if 5 toughness is hard enough to remove and if the mana fixing is really worth

[rigid scarab]

Can't think of any particular 60 card deck this slots into

Some sort of combo deck is my best guess

Like ||Lotus Field|| or something

[lusty trench]

Oh I'm judging it on casual edh

[granite badge]

mana fixing ain't too shabby in slower formats

it being able to protect itself somewhat is nice and it doing some milling is fun

that Ult looks insane if you're able to pull it off but in Standard I'm pretty sure Kaldheim Vorn already rotated out, right?

[golden plover]

It's also notable she's a 3 mana walker who upticks to 5

Remember how that went last time

I'm not saying she's oko level, but she's probably going to be at least good

[fallow citrus]

you can uptick her without actually animating a land too if you're scared of your hexproof land dying

I was gonna say a really good card for 5c decks but the 2 green pips

[golden plover]

I think it's fine if green is your primary color

Like Pioneer Devotion, where it just makes it easier to play things like Tef Who Slows the Sunset

[glad peak]

I kind of want to say it’ll be decent in Temur breach builds

[golden plover]

I think anything that uses green and cares about the grave is gonna try her at least

[glad peak]

You can minus to gamble for breach or protect it 3 turns (not too hard if you build the deck only with interaction in mind) and go for bauble loops

Biggest weakness is her being 3 mana

[trail anvil]

I feel like they're encouraging green to join the 3c powerhouses with that static ability

sultai is so close

[trail anvil]

wait she doesn't untap the land on her +1, I'm kinda over the card

[glad peak]

There’s a lot that could’ve been good on the card that are usually there

Like untapping the land or being able to regrowth anything

[twilit canyon]

https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/magic-story/episode-8-wrenn-and-eight

[twilit canyon]

elspeth a baddie

||wrenn 😭||

[sudden lava]

OOH that's a really good planeswalker 😮

[twilit canyon]

its ok

https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/magic-story/one-and-the-same

[twilit canyon]

||seems that vraska might be alive||

[copper pecan]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/636013795507961892/1088920669615566868/IMG_2624.png?width=796&height=662

??????????????????????????????????

[lusty trench]

Norn literally just asked if they have no maidens

Lmao

[twilit canyon]

phyrexian segs

wait then phyrexians still reproduce??

[last glen]

The core biological need

[lusty trench]

I guess the need for vats to make new phyrexians could be seen as imperfection? Honestly the implications of that one line deal psychic damage

[twilit canyon]

ok but not memeing now

its elesh norn viewing things this way

her view of phyrexia is flawed

and contradictory to what phyrexia has shown

[lusty trench]

Yeah Elspeth calls her out on it

[twilit canyon]

i wonder how long itll be before phyrexia also turns on norn

[clever sun]

Only complaint I have so far is how weak Archangel Elspeth and Wrenn and Realmbreaker seem compared to their story spotlights

Elspeth shrugs off Phyrexian attacks and it takes a buffed Elesh Norn to shake her but her card is... slightly better Knight-Errant?

Wrenn and Realmbreaker does as Teferi says, something truly insane and all she is, is a glorified Dryad of the Elysian Grove

[golden plover]

I think both are underwhelming on paper, but are gonna end up good in practice

I'd prefer them being more playable over them being like 10 mana cards that do dumb shit

[twilit canyon]

i dont see it for elspeth

maybe wrenn

but elspeth is powercrept by emperor pretty hard

[dense berry]

ill take Knight errant over this any day

what the shit is that second ability a -2

if it was on knight errant it would be another +1

[golden plover]

I think that's gonna end up better than expected

It's a permanent +2/+2 that makes them a flier

On stuff like Sheoldred that's scary

[dense berry]

thats kinda gilding the lily

she protects herself on a plus ability which is very good make no mistake

the minus doesnt generate advantage which is bad

and the ult is reasonably attainable

build around but relatively game winning

[twilit canyon]

it just isnt likely at all

anything archangel does wanderer does better p much

emperor isnt ever in immediate threat. in fact she likely caused a nasty 2 for 1 or diverted a ton of lifeloss

and then she has a way more guaranteed end point to herself bc her +1 and -1 work in tandem

she can infinitely make tokens. elspeth will fall behind on token gen in the long run at least

if she wants 3 power tokens

like sure emperor is probably top 3-5 walkers all time

but shes still in standard

elspeth would need to provide value over emperor ambushing an attacker and dying which is a big 2 for 1

or she survives, buffs your board and the 2 for 1 comes later

potential 3 for 1

if she can also generate a token

cus then at that poin it became a 4 mana 2/2 that exiled an opponents creature gained 2 life put a +1/+1 counter on a creature u control and then ate a removal spell and still left a body behind

[atomic harness]

true kid

[zinc shard]

I... What?

[twilit canyon]

im sure they were supposed to be foil

[atomic harness]

Plain plains

[golden plover]

Apparently it's because you don't have them if you didn't play during WAR?

Still 2.5k gold for a basic is dumb as hell

[glad peak]

Just don’t buy them then

[fallow citrus]

ah yes the best response

[dense berry]

just dont play arena

[trail anvil]

god I hope this was meant to be foil

what a ripoff

[glad peak]

i mean, some people care about land art, dont buy them if you dont, they're basics

[twilit canyon]

yea they are vanity pieces

[dense berry]

kinda a dogwater take ngl

you can apply the logic to anything

if you dont like that im selling you a steaming pile of shit on a plate just dont buy it

like

ok

just because some coprophages would be enthusiastic about it doesn't mean theyre not overcharging for a crappy product

[glad peak]

I mean, if you have an audience that’ll pay that much, then charge that much

[dense berry]

ok if we're arguing from a business standpoint i still think they would find more people willing to spend if they literally effortlessly hit the switch to make them foils or made the price point more reasonable

how many people are willing to trade 2.5 packs of currency for a basic land skin vs how many people are willing to trade say half a pack for the basic land skin

[glad peak]

Sure, but I’m sure they’re doing an a-b “survey” on the shop with random people

[golden plover]

Even 500 gems would be too much, but everything on arena costs too much, so it makes sense

[glad peak]

Also yeah arena in general costs too much

[golden plover]

They know they can charge whatever and people will spend it

[twilit canyon]

arena is cheaper than modo and paper

[dense berry]

500 would be too much but its better than 2500

[twilit canyon]

and its still too much

granted arena can be played free

[golden plover]

Yeah, but MODO was also before modern digital tcgs

Arena is about as generous as Master Duel, which isn't good

[dense berry]

big time disagree

[golden plover]

Even Hearthstone is better nowadays

[dense berry]

master duel is way more generous

[golden plover]

Master Duel is a lot more frontloaded

You get way more shit starting out in Master Duel, but decks cost more to keep up with

[dense berry]

any game with a crafting and dismantling system is just in a different tier of f2p than mtga

[golden plover]

Although yeah, the dusting system makes it a lot better

[dense berry]

the wildcard system is a joke

[golden plover]

It's BAD yeah

[dense berry]

anybody who likes it hasnt had anything better

or they enjoy suffering

[golden plover]

It should be like LoR's wildcards at the bare minimum where you can buy wildcards outright (for less than $50)

[twilit canyon]

dusting is rarely good

[golden plover]

In LoR the highest rarity wildcard is $3

[twilit canyon]

runeterra or marvel snap are more optimal systems

[golden plover]

Although you also rarely have to spend money for the game because it's super generous

[twilit canyon]

but neither game is magic

magic has no reason to be cheaper

its magic

the most popular card game

it doesnt need to play down to competitors when all competitors are fighting for magic players and playerbase

[dense berry]

i really hate the concept that mtg can get away with a shitty digital peripheral because its mtg

[twilit canyon]

yea it sucks

but it is

[dense berry]

like sure magic is great

[twilit canyon]

it can do so cus its too big to fail

[dense berry]

and thats why the stock prices plummeted

because you actually cant operate like that for very long

[languid quest]

also MtG has community that mostly defends everything that WotC does

[copper pecan]

stock prices plummeted because there was a recession and entertainment is usually the first thing people cut spending on during an entertainment

[granite badge]

disagree tbh

[twilit canyon]

it happened everywhere

[dense berry]

thats true, however the monetization structure changes and release schedule changes from like 2019 onward absolutely affected the stock price in tandem with the recession

[twilit canyon]

dusting actively encourages u to destroy your collection to keep up with meta as a f2p player

if those cards ever come back to relevancy

ur out if luck

upsides being u can dust cards that are genuinely useless

but then why are those cards useless to begin with?

[dense berry]

i never dust my decks on master duel and ive been at the gem cap for months with every meta deck i care about including 60 card piles

f2p

[twilit canyon]

runeterra and marvel snap do it infinitely better

[hidden ermine]

Same reason draft chaff exists

Or draft rares

[dense berry]

i literally couldnt imagine spending on md

[twilit canyon]

yea exactly

runeterra and snap dont have chaff

and are way more generoue

*generous

[hidden ermine]

Ehhh, there are bad cards in Runeterra, but theyre more for funny meme decks

But yeah, being generous helps there

[twilit canyon]

they arent literally chaff tho

[golden plover]

They're bad yeah, but they're designed for specific archetypes or memes that just don't see play

(See all of Vladimir's cards)

There was draft at one point, tho

[hidden ermine]

Scargrounds was viable for a time

[golden plover]

For a bit, but it's hard carried by the braum chunk of the deck

[rigid scarab]

But Runeterra and Snap dont have better systems because of no dusting

[dense berry]

ill personally never forgive arena for the nexus of fate bundle shenanigans

[rigid scarab]

Runeterra's marketing point is "You dont pay for cards"

[golden plover]

Don't forget about Mystical Archives "Lmao 4 rare WCs for Flooting"

[rigid scarab]

And Master Duel having useless cards that need to he dusted isn't MD's fault, is it?

[twilit canyon]

it is

its the fault of all paper tcgs

[dense berry]

i remember when the borrelend pack came out in master duel there were like 9/13 URs were good pulls for me and after like 100 packs i had only pulled copies of the 4 that were useless

in mtga id be completely fucked over

[twilit canyon]

with gold packs not so much

[dense berry]

in master duel i got everything i wanted

[twilit canyon]

there are plenty of problems with mtga but the current generosity of pack opening is not it

its just expensive

and yet still cheaper than other forms of magic

[dense berry]

other forms of magic arent money entirely into the void

imo this makes mtga actually the most expensive form of mtg

[rigid scarab]

That's the fault of Yugioh, not the fault of the MD designers

[dense berry]

ive already made more money on my mtg collection than ive ever spent in paper

[twilit canyon]

for all intents and purposes it is

ive made more on arena thanks to opens than anything with paper

[dense berry]

on top of having a sizeable collection to liquidate whenever i choose

[twilit canyon]

arena has cashed me out 9k

paper has always been at a loss to me

[rigid scarab]

You can make money on MTGA if your cracked at the game sure

[twilit canyon]

correct

the issue is present in magic too

almost all paper card games

by all measures they invented the lootbox

[copper pecan]

booster packs in general should be illegal tbh

like, it should not be legal to sell something while refusing to tell the customer what the thing they're buying is

[golden plover]

Yeah, games need to move to sets instead where you get all the cards in a single package

[twilit canyon]

magic justifies it by creating a game out of draft chaff

[golden plover]

Although at the end of the day, it's a cheap excuse

[twilit canyon]

ngl i had expected set boosters to be just that when they 1st anniunced them

[rigid scarab]

If that happened I have reason to believe that the secondary market will immediately die

[copper pecan]

it's not like getting rid of packs makes limited impossible to do either since cubes exist

[golden plover]

Yugioh tried it once and it was great

They need to just make it the norm in card games

[copper pecan]

there would be no need for the secondary market anymore in that case

and to be frank i don't care if resellers lose money

[twilit canyon]

they can make limited draft pack bundles easily

[rigid scarab]

I dont think its feasible for any paper TCG to make money purely on players

[twilit canyon]

charge 20$ for a table of 8 booster drafting

[golden plover]

Killing the secondary market and making the game more playable in one move would be huge

[twilit canyon]

it wouldnt hence why this wont happen

[golden plover]

Also, there'd still be a form of it, for stuff like a card that comes in 1 copy for a set, but you need 3 of

[twilit canyon]

but from a consumer perspective

itd be a lot better

[rigid scarab]

I mean

Why yes I would like to have all of my cards at 10% of the price

I would also like free food, water and rent

[dense berry]

i dont think its reasonable to calculate tournament prizing into a games f2p model

[rigid scarab]

Tbh yeah

[dense berry]

saying you won like 5 mtga opens is cool and all but

99.999% of players arent in your demographic

[rigid scarab]

Is that to say that MTGA's model is good

[twilit canyon]

mtga model is good for the customer they want to get

is the core of it

people who are used to and willing to spend about 100-150 on magic every set

[rigid scarab]

Yeah

MTGA is really good at making a model that makes the most money possible

To the whales

But are most players whales

[copper pecan]

wow, a corporation trying to make money, i'm so surprised

[hidden ermine]

What Salt describes actually existed

Multiple times

And it made money just fine

[copper pecan]

yeah lcgs are a thing

[hidden ermine]

In fact, the last one only "died" because Wizards refused to renew the license

And even then it "died" officially, unofficially fans are still continuing the game with a fanmade initiative that keeps making sets

[twilit canyon]

so then it wasnt making enough money for wotc to want to renew it

[rigid scarab]

Many CCGs have proven that you dont need MTGA's model to make a successful CCG

[hidden ermine]

No, actually

We never got the details

[twilit canyon]

yea but thats bc they have to compete with magic

[hidden ermine]

But rumours are that it was because the parent company of FFG is a competitor to Wizards parent company

Asmodee and Hasbro respectively

[twilit canyon]

no matter how successful they just dont match up or overtake yugioh or pokemon or maguc

*magic

[hidden ermine]

I mean yeah, because no card game can do that

[rigid scarab]

At this point trying to overtake them is just a fools endeavor

[hidden ermine]

Those three are, respectively, the one that got a surprise hit manga to jump off of, the card game for the worlds biggest IP and the Original

[twilit canyon]

so they inherently need to be more consumer friendly

[rigid scarab]

And Vanguard

[twilit canyon]

cus the big three card games cant fail and they have their systems set in place

[dense berry]

i think wotc believing this is like the only way it could ever happen

[copper pecan]

i seriously doubt that mtg will ever die

[twilit canyon]

u would think but nah

[copper pecan]

even if wotc goes out of business mtg will not die

[twilit canyon]

wotc has a ball that they have proven they cannot fumble

idt wotc falls either

hasbro will fall before wotc

[dense berry]

i mean as long as enough of the playerbase remains blue pilled on the matter then theyre unsinkable

[hidden ermine]

This is hard to say

[rigid scarab]

I can recount like 1 time WOTC had a publicly "Too big to fail" mindset and it backfiring

[hidden ermine]

Because we have no precedent

[twilit canyon]

magic 30th

even then

[dense berry]

i can think of a few

[rigid scarab]

And OGL

[dense berry]

30th is a big one

[twilit canyon]

look at the magic 30th prices

[dense berry]

kamigawa was another

[twilit canyon]

ppl didnt really care

[rigid scarab]

A bit more than 1 then

[dense berry]

30th prices were always gonna be high on secondary

[copper pecan]

kamigawa wasn't because they thought it was too big to fail, they were trying to correct course after how busted mirrodin was and then ended up drastically undershooting the power level they were going for

[dense berry]

solely because its a terrible product

[twilit canyon]

and yet none of those incidents have dethroned or threatened wotc or magic in the grand scheme of things

[rigid scarab]

I cant think of any big stunt Pokemon or Yugioh that was so explosively greedy

But Im not into Pokemon so idk about them

[twilit canyon]

wasnt yugioh on the way out when it was owned by upper deck?

[copper pecan]

pokemon changing the card back and then banning using cards with the old back was pretty greedy

[twilit canyon]

konami came in to save yugioh no?

[hidden ermine]

Like the closest analogue we have is WoW, but while WoW lost its status as the biggest MMO to FF, its still the second-biggest

Im pretty sure Upper Deck was only in the west in the first place

[copper pecan]

upper deck lost the license because they were literally selling counterfits

[hidden ermine]

And when it comes to YGO, the west is very much so secondary

Actually thats true for card games in general

Were a much smaller market

[twilit canyon]

magic being an exception

[dense berry]

it wasnt counterfeits it was illegal repacks

[twilit canyon]

tho the recent anime cards prove

[hidden ermine]

Magic is an exception in that the west is where magic has the most players

[twilit canyon]

they got a worldwide market too

[hidden ermine]

Yeah

Its like, what

7th place in japan?

Thats still pretty good

[rigid scarab]

Dont worry guys

One Piece is finally gonna be able to hang with the big boys

Just you wait

[dense berry]

lol

[rigid scarab]

Battle Spirits will be the nail in the coffin

[dense berry]

one piece copers with stars in their eyes

[copper pecan]

i really hope battle spirits takes off

[dense berry]

battle spirits wow havent heard of that in like 15 years

[copper pecan]

it's coming back next month

[dense berry]

my sister got the free starter decks

[rigid scarab]

I dont really get people who jump onto up and coming TCGs

[hidden ermine]

I can see One Piece getting pretty high in japan

[rigid scarab]

You are actively spending money on an already sinking ship

[dense berry]

one piece is gonna pop like a bubble quickly

the prices are already too inflated

[rigid scarab]

Japan has a big 3 Im pretty sure

Its just a lot closer

[dense berry]

the entry barrier is too high for a newly released game

[rigid scarab]

And swap MTG with Duel Masters

[copper pecan]

japan has more like a big 5 than a big 3

[dense berry]

its whats killed basically every upstart tcg

[copper pecan]

and even then yugioh does like twice as well as any of the others

[rigid scarab]

What is it even

[hidden ermine]

Pokemon is close, sorta

[rigid scarab]

Yugioh
Pokemon
Duel Masters
Vanguard

What else

[copper pecan]

yugioh, pokemon, duel masters, battle spirits, and sometimes weiss

[hidden ermine]

Pokemon isnt played as much but iirc it sells a shitton

[copper pecan]

vanguard is actually not doing too well

[hidden ermine]

Digimon was up there for a bit, dunno if it still is

[rigid scarab]

Bushi has yet to make a good decision for Vanguard in like 8 months

Not surprised

[copper pecan]

them deciding to reboot vanguard a second time really hurt peoples' confidence in the game

[rigid scarab]

And that format is now the most expensive

Weiss just has anime backing it up

What Online TCG has the system you would say hinges the most on the player being good

[twilit canyon]

hmm

was gonna say magic

but i think its master duel

cus if ur shit u dont really get shit done

any mono-red-pilled player can reach mythic in about 12 hours as showcased by crokeyz

[hidden ermine]

Depends on the YGO meta, some of them do have braindead decks you can go far with

[twilit canyon]

i mean total casual players

[hidden ermine]

Yeah

Eldlich is not hard

[twilit canyon]

im talking even more casual bad

as in playing 60 card blue eyes

[lusty trench]

Wdym stride deck sets are $50

[lusty trench]

I'd argue half a decade

[sudden lava]

I think the leaked ||D&D commanders|| are gonna be revealed in a couple days

like officially

[lusty trench]

Wait they got leaked?

...I'm a dumbass, fully read ||DnD|| and my mind went to lotr

[sudden lava]

yeah

||https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/11zbe2w/secret_lair_x_dungeons_dragons_honor_among_thieves/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button||

[copper pecan]

all of them are kinda bad except for ||the exalted aura guy,|| who seems fine

[sudden lava]

so less likely for me to be targeted at the table

and fits a theme I wanna build? Seems fine to me

[sudden lava]

the monoblack making me suspicious over their effect

||Ward: Sacrifice a creature, gets bonuses for sacrificing creatures||

[twilit canyon]

gets +2/+0 per sack

iirc

[fallow citrus]

auras having exalted is pretty cool

[sudden lava]

per treasure

sacks give more treasure

[strong quartz]

Waiting to see the kill count from MoM

[languid quest]

it has already been high

while killing off characters to show that there are stakes is fine when you do it too much it loses meaning

[polar lake]

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/5504730#paper

casual modern deck i built

[lusty trench]

I tried making a custom commander to facilitate a deck I want to create, how does this look to yall?

[hidden ermine]

I assume you meant extraordinaire

Anyway, its off-colour

Stealing creatures is blue with a very rare instance of black doing it

Red only does it temporarily

[twilit canyon]

yep

and

the cost is wayyy too lenient for the effect

[lusty trench]

I assume you mean for the second ability, would 2x the treasures be balanced enough

and noted for the colour pie, I knew it was off but didn't remember why

[hidden ermine]

I actually disagree on the cost, I think the cost is fine actually, if it was in-colour

[twilit canyon]

the cost is not fine

it makes all your tokens into treasures

[lusty trench]

I just figured if you can make infinite tokens you likely have game anyway

[hidden ermine]

Right, but you still need multiple moving pieces for a once-per-turn steal that also gives your opponent the mana to do stuff

[rigid scarab]

This in Blue would be bonkers

Imagine time sieve

I wouldn't worry about stealing permanents

I worry about all of your tokens turning into artifacts

And mana

[hidden ermine]

Isnt there an effect like that already?

Though not in the command zone ig

[lusty trench]

that's a good note, need to figure out a way around that by the effect is wordy enough as is, so might have to rework it

[rigid scarab]

Although

[twilit canyon]

treasure gen in red is insanely trivial

[rigid scarab]

There have been plenty of commanders with fun and unfun variants

This can just be one of them

[lusty trench]

I might change the red to blue tbh

[rigid scarab]

Then none of your colors make treasure in their identity

[twilit canyon]

id do mardu

red/black/white

[hidden ermine]

Yeah I wanna say black should be in there

[lusty trench]

green can make treasures as can black

[twilit canyon]

and then add a cost to the steal

[hidden ermine]

Its a distant secondary

[lusty trench]

oh wait black isn't in there lmao

might make it black blue white green then

[hidden ermine]

Id cut the white or the green

[lusty trench]

the issue is the only similar token replacement effects I can find is in green or white, and white has significantly less

[twilit canyon]

2wbr {t}: sacrifice x treasures. gain control of target non-land permanent an opponent controls with mana value x. activate only as a soecery and only once per turn.

the reason id attach a cost to the treasure sack too is cus this can quite literally turn innocuous cards into rituals under the right conditions

any 2 mana make 2 guys becomes mana neutral

with any sort of mana doubler/treasure doubler/token doubler it gets stupid

and notably more powerful is that it can steal enchantments, artifacts, walkers and such

[hidden ermine]

Arent all doublers in white?

No wait

Procession is in white, Season is in green

[twilit canyon]

[[kaya geist hunter]]

[lost widget]

https://scryfall.com/card/vow/240/kaya-geist-hunter

Kaya, Geist Hunter <:mana1:292901508373282827><:manaw:1007102126813610074><:manab:292901508872273920>

Legendary Planeswalker — Kaya
+1: Creatures you control gain deathtouch until end of turn. Put a +1/+1 counter on up to one target creature token you control.
−2: Until end of turn, if one or more tokens would be created under your control, twice that many of those tokens are created instead.
−6: Exile all cards from all graveyards, then create a 1/1 white Spirit creature token with flying for each card exiled this way.
Loyalty: 3

[lusty trench]

chatterfang and academy manufacturer is the absolute closest to the effect I can find to this effect

how's this?

shit same card

[twilit canyon]

better but bant is weird for the effect imo

[hidden ermine]

And flavour-wise this feels like it should have black doesnt it

[lusty trench]

colour identity makes time sieve an impossibility

[twilit canyon]

the art ur using is from an orzhov card

[lusty trench]

oh I legit just googled rich merchant lmao

[twilit canyon]

and if u go mardu u also avoid siev

[lusty trench]

the main reason I'm pushing for white green is to justify the fact that I have all of the enchantment token doublers

it might just mean I scrap the gain control ability all together tbh

[hidden ermine]

Oh, now thats interesting

Though at that point its less trade and more corporate espionage

[lusty trench]

that's the issue I'm having, the gain control effect is fine if I just add black in there but that makes time sieve issues

[rigid scarab]

I think if you're copying, the owner doesn't need to make treasures

[twilit canyon]

also time siev isnt an issue if u just make it non-blue

[lusty trench]

suppose it could be white black green?

[rigid scarab]

Blue is heavy on cloning though

[twilit canyon]

white/black/red and keep the steal

if u are dead set on token doubling dont give it an activated ability

and if ur not gonna make this into a custom commander go wilder then dont limit urself or balance it

[rigid scarab]

But that's not very interesting is it

I'd rather try and make my custom commander fit into EDH

[lusty trench]

the main card I based all of this off is expropriate

adding in a chatterfang replacement effect

[rigid scarab]

You can make "The best Commander ever" and just make a 0 CMC creature that wins the game when its cast

With the spell and ability uncounterable

[twilit canyon]

loses to angels grace /s

i mean going crazy with the power level with little focus on balance doesnt has to be perfectly optimal

for example if ur just doing it for fun u can make

[rigid scarab]

But I think this is an honest attempt to make a commander that can be printed today and cause no issues

[twilit canyon]

yea in which case, no activated ability

treasure generator in the command zone shouldnt also be the payoff unless its a really slow and weak payoff

a balanced commander rarely self-enables

[rigid scarab]

Sac 5 treasures, make a 1/1 Citizen

Sorcery speed

[lusty trench]

I would actually prefer no ability at that point

[rigid scarab]

Actually wait

The citizen would turn into a treasure instead

[twilit canyon]

it would

lmao

[lusty trench]

I added the word may to the card's treasure gen

cause then the copies would become treasures

[rigid scarab]

There we go

Uh

Sac 3 treasures to make a food

[lusty trench]

hows this?

[hidden ermine]

Oh at that point Id probably reduce the cost to X treasure tokens tbh?

[twilit canyon]

x is fine then yes

[lusty trench]

awesome, everything else seem okay?

[twilit canyon]

yea sure

[lusty trench]

now time to convince my play group to let me play it

[zinc shard]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zw0nbAwSqfI

Finally, Arena Dredge

[twilit canyon]

yea dredgeless dredge is here

im not sure how insane it truly is without actual dredge cards or dredge payoffs

[[conflagrate]]

[lost widget]

https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/160/conflagrate

Conflagrate <:manax:292901509082120202><:manax:292901509082120202><:manar:292901508796645397>

Sorcery
Conflagrate deals X damage divided as you choose among any number of targets.
Flashback—, Discard X cards. (You may cast this card from your graveyard for its flashback cost. Then exile it.)

[twilit canyon]

we dont even need some of the more absurd dredgers like ggt

[[life from the loam]]

[lost widget]

https://scryfall.com/card/uma/172/life-from-the-loam

Life from the Loam <:mana1:292901508373282827><:manag:292901508654301185>

Sorcery
Return up to three target land cards from your graveyard to your hand.
Dredge 3 (If you would draw a card, you may mill three cards instead. If you do, return this card from your graveyard to your hand.)

[twilit canyon]

[[darkblast]]

[lost widget]

https://scryfall.com/card/rav/82/darkblast

Darkblast <:manab:292901508872273920>

Instant
Target creature gets -1/-1 until end of turn.
Dredge 3 (If you would draw a card, you may mill three cards instead. If you do, return this card from your graveyard to your hand.)

[twilit canyon]

[[stinkweed imp]]

[lost widget]

https://scryfall.com/card/dvd/36/stinkweed-imp

Stinkweed Imp <:mana2:292901509060886528><:manab:292901508872273920>

Creature — Imp
Flying
Whenever Stinkweed Imp deals combat damage to a creature, destroy that creature.
Dredge 5 (If you would draw a card, you may mill five cards instead. If you do, return this card from your graveyard to your hand.)
1/2

[twilit canyon]

[[golgari thug]]

[lost widget]

https://scryfall.com/card/uma/98/golgari-thug

Golgari Thug <:mana1:292901508373282827><:manab:292901508872273920>

Creature — Human Warrior
When Golgari Thug dies, put target creature card from your graveyard on top of your library.
Dredge 4 (If you would draw a card, you may mill four cards instead. If you do, return this card from your graveyard to your hand.)
1/1

[zinc shard]

https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/mtg-arena/mtg-arena-announcements-march-27-2023?utm_medium=product&utm_source=arena

New Bundles go on sale tomorrow

[twilit canyon]

oh its the cool bundles again

[zinc shard]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkdKJ0EDD1k

||1. There is a red card that says "Enchant Planeswalker"
2. There is a card that calls back to a specific group of cards from New Phyrexia
3. There is a card that begins "Whenever you cast a Phyrexian creature or artifact creature spell..."
4. There is a card with the same ability 3 times
5. There is a cycle of cardsthat all have the ability word "Will of the Planeswalkers".
6. There is a card with a sentence that begins "As many times as you choose..."
7. There is a card with the Parley mechanic
8. There is a card that cares about Merfolk
9. There is a plane that references an iconic creature from Aplha
10. There is a new rare Kithkin in these decks
11. There is an Angel Ally
12. There is a Phyrexianized M11 Titan in this set
13. There is a new card with Eminence!
14. There is FINALLY something that creatres a 1/1 butterfly creature token with flying||

[copper pecan]

eminence
why

i thought they had come to the conclusion that that mechanic was badly designed

[fallow citrus]

see merfolk then read commander

never slept so fast in my life

[twilit canyon]

cus its going to be dogshit

i hope to be wrong but im betting itll be useless

[trail anvil]

that campbell white art goes hard as hell

alessandra pisano's art is really simply framed but it's done so well, I couldn't put my finger on why exactly

[golden plover]

Why the hell are they doing an eminence card

[hidden ermine]

Yawgmoth, is what people are guessing

[lusty trench]

The ||"new phyrexia"|| card might be a reference to the ||chancellor|| cycle?

[hidden ermine]

That or the eminence is a detriment

[golden plover]

That could be okay

[hidden ermine]

Tbh they also kept making partner commanders so

[golden plover]

But most partners suck

The mechanic is fine, it's just the original partners were way overtuned

Eminence isn't like that

[hidden ermine]

Nah the mechanic is the problem

Thats why the partners they release suck

[golden plover]

They're fine when they're mostly limited to a single color

Like stuff like Yoshimaru isn't inherently a problem

Even the worst Eminence cards, Aboro and the Ur-Dragon do something you can't interact with form the command zone

That's inherently an issue

[hidden ermine]

Is it?

Id argue the Ur-Dragon is probably one of the most balanced 5c commanders

[golden plover]

Even the worst eminence effects are an inherent buff simply by existing

Yeah the Ur-Dragon isn't particularly crazy or anything

But simply by being in the zone, he makes all your shit cheaper

[lusty trench]

I mean even 5 colour dragons doesn't run as commander anymore

[copper pecan]

ur dragon is fine

[lusty trench]

Tiamat or jodah are both better

[golden plover]

He's fine, but the point is that the mechanic is the issue

Like look at Edgar. He's annoying because he makes the tokens just by existing

If he made them only while he was on the field, he'd be much less annoying

[hidden ermine]

And by that you mean "terrible", right?

[golden plover]

I mean, yeah

[hidden ermine]

Ultimately we know eminence can be balanced

While making the cards feel fun to play

[golden plover]

It can, but there's really not much of a benefit to balancing it

There's very few ways to make it unique and fun that aren't either way too strong or whatever

It's like dredge

Also, kinda sad they're using ability words outside of the DnD/UB sets. Not a huge fan of them

[hidden ermine]

Idk, its like origins in LoR, I think there is plenty of space

[golden plover]

Eh maybe, but it's still weird

Although he did say card and not creature, so watch it be an enchantment that gives commanders emminence

That'd fix the issue

[lusty trench]

Without them reworking partner, I wouldn't have my man gale

[hidden ermine]

The background guy?

[golden plover]

Partner is totally fine outside of the original partners tbh

[hidden ermine]

Id call that a different mechanic

Its such a busted mechanic they have to keep the cards weak and boring which like

[twilit canyon]

not true

[lusty trench]

It's partner

[hidden ermine]

Just makes the mechanic pointless

[twilit canyon]

this latest run of them broke commander too

[lusty trench]

Krark sakashima go brrr

[hidden ermine]

You mean Waterdeep prodigy?

Because thats choose a background, which isnt partner

Tbh "partner with" is probably more manageable

[lusty trench]

It's pretty much partner

[hidden ermine]

But they also had a few misses there

[golden plover]

Partner with and the other restricted versions are probably a better design space, yeah

[twilit canyon]

partner with is fine

[golden plover]

But outside of the original set and a couple new ones, partner isn't an issue

[lusty trench]

Literally the only mechanic I remember that I don't think should ever be revisited is companion

[golden plover]

Unrelated to the new commander stuff, but related to MTG as a whole, Jason Rainville tweeted how much they get paid for card art.... and it's not pretty

It's $1k per piece

Luckily they can sell prints and everything else

But $1k is shockingly low

[hidden ermine]

I ... have no frame of reference here

[golden plover]

You've commissioned artists prior, right?

[hidden ermine]

I have not

I wanted to, but havent had the disposable income yet

[golden plover]

Usually, I'll see prices about $100-ish per character (more or less based on the artist and quality) and that's for just a private commission by a single person or so

Companies usually should be paying a lot more

And like, note that the piece in question was this one

[hidden ermine]

Oh that ... that looks like a piece that takes a few weeks to make

[golden plover]

Took him 9 days nonstop he said

Dunno if that was his deadline or self imposed, but $1k for that feels awful

That'd be like $7/hr

Apparently it's double what yugioh pays, but people are well aware of Konami being shitty about it

[twilit canyon]

1k + u keep rights to sell prints and other things isnt awful

but its not goos

*good

[golden plover]

Yeah, it's apparently middle of the line in the industry, but the advantage of being able to sell your prints is nice enough

Better than Konami, but $1k flat just feels really low

[twilit canyon]

being able to sell prints and keep your art is pretty big

[golden plover]

Yeah, I'm sure it's helped supplement the income, especially for more popular artists

[twilit canyon]

the current lucrative business of selling your art and then becoming a magic art personality with artist proofs is actually pretty big

if they paid more but didnt let u keep the art itd be impossible

[golden plover]

Apparently that's the way hs is

$1500ish per piece, but no other advantages

I'm surprised that it seems like every TCG does flat rates

[twilit canyon]

flat rates is pretty appealing

theres often no hidden caveats to the contract and for example unlike konami, your name is put on cards and in away, advertised

[golden plover]

Yeah that's another huge advantage

[twilit canyon]

this also means u dont have to worry about them saying "hey dipshit we didnt like it so we are only paying u 900 instead of 1200"

[golden plover]

It's crazy Konami gets away with $500ish (based on yen conversions) per piece and literally giving up even having your name on the card

[glad peak]

Partner is generally fine, where it’s less fine is when they let you draw cards for just playing the game

[twilit canyon]

tymna thrasios come to mind

kraum

[golden plover]

Yeah that's a big commander issue. The boring guys who are just "when you do thing, draw card"

Luckily it feels like it's been less lately

[glad peak]

It would’ve been best if singular partners were worse than regular commander but they’re on par if not better than normal commanders

[golden plover]

Yeah definitely

Like stuff like Thrasios is perfectly fine without a partner

[twilit canyon]

it def makes it so that partners are just more powerful too is that the command tax applies to individual cards

thras dies hes now 4 mana but tymna is still 3 until she dies

[golden plover]

Yeah that would probably be a good change to nerf partners

[glad peak]

The funniest rule of oathbreaker I just remembered was that you can have 2 signature spells if your commander was a partner

[golden plover]

It'd probably kill ones like Jeska but oh well. You're mostly playing Jeska to put red in your deck

[golden plover]

Damn, that sounds silly as hell

Although I will say, I was looking at Oathbreaker's banlist and it's good?

Like Oathbreaker's banlist really looks like what commander's should be

[glad peak]

It is, tevesh + jeska with jeska’s will and elderspell is silly

Oathbreaker’s banlist misses a couple things like mox diamond (or the other one or both, can’t remember)

[golden plover]

Notable Oathbreaker banned cards legal in commander:
Ad Naus, Jeweled Lotus, Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, LED, Mana Vault

[glad peak]

Unfortunately commander will never ban Sol ring or print mana crypt/vault in precons

[golden plover]

Yeah true

The ideal time to ban sol ring was 10 years ago

[granite badge]

wait its a flat fee

?

[golden plover]

But it's never gonna get banned now and the others are all $100+

[golden plover]

Yup

[granite badge]

like I don't have any grasp into buisness oriented commissioning but that feels a bit odd

ultimiatily you're contracting someone to do work you can't do in house

[glad peak]

Forces budget cedh players (who want to play in irl events in prizes locals) to play green or yuriko

[granite badge]

that sounds more like something you'd contract hourly

then a flat fee

[glad peak]

Yes yes I know prized edh is bad and all but since it’s prized and people are restricted by budget, it’s not too bad

[golden plover]

It's weird that official LGSes can do prize support for commander now

Like I feel like of all the formats, edh shouldn't be eligible for prize support

[glad peak]

Honestly I’m fine with it since store sanctioned prizeless edh is in a weird middle ground of people wanting to win and people doing jank

At least with prizes people are going for a win

[golden plover]

True, it does actively encourage less "open-mic night commander" which is the worst way to play

[lusty trench]

Honestly I get so confused at people who try to "balance" a commanders night by saying casual only, and limit your power scale and to rule 0

Like wtf is rule 0 going to do when someone only brought in the one deck

[granite badge]

my biggest peeve is how the moment prizing comes into the equation my locals scene is like "nope no rule 0 for you just play the best deck you can"

like my lgs advertises commander as a more laid back event but because there's an entry fee and promo pack prizing the regulars for awhile were dead set on running it like a competitive event

[glad peak]

I mean, once the game becomes “play whatever you can to win” the format instantly loses some of the worst conversations that people have a problem with

[granite badge]

no deck changing no rule 0 nothing of that sort

[lusty trench]

This happened at my lgs too

[glad peak]

But also deck should be able to be changed game after game

[lusty trench]

Resulted in the guy who had the most money winning because they brought in urza and every 0-1 mana mana rock under the sun

[twilit canyon]

thats not optimal

urza doesnt need infinite 0-1 mana artifact

[lusty trench]

They reality chipped thassas turn 2 consistently and no one had the interaction for it

[golden plover]

I mean, in 99% of commander games you don't have to be playing the most optimal deck to win

You just have to be playing more optimal decks than most people at an lgs

[glad peak]

Iirc you either polytyrant or go for some kitten line but they’re both very different decks

[golden plover]

Which is usually easy

[lusty trench]

Doesn't have to be if you know everyone else won't have the mana or costless cards to interact

[glad peak]

I’m actually confused as to why people are so against playing stuff like bolt

[lusty trench]

Pretty good creature removal on a budget

[glad peak]

I mean, cedh runs it a lot of times so a lot of times it’s actually just straight up good

[golden plover]

Most casual people don't wanna play cards that aren't their wincon/theme or cards they think are cool

So you see all sorts of wacky lists where they're just running shit that's worse

[glad peak]

Also my friend wanted to build around an interactive commander and sent me a decklist with a whopping 5 interactive spells

[lusty trench]

[golden plover]

Is your friend Sheldon?

[lusty trench]

I was gonna say at least they're better building a deck than Sheldon

[twilit canyon]

bolt aint even that good in most red cedh lists

[glad peak]

I added 5 more interactive spells for them to first try out and later add more and they straight up called it a counterspell deck

[lusty trench]

Unrelated but I just noticed the ganyu pfp, based

[lusty trench]

[twilit canyon]

my cedh list runs what

15?

17 interactive cards?

[glad peak]

Wait don’t you play ukkima food chain turbo?

[lusty trench]

I have krark sakashima but I think I run a total of 2 counterspells mainly cause I like it when my wincons get stopped cause then I can flip more coins

[golden plover]

I remember one time getting told off for [[An offer you can't refuse]] in Thrasios. They went "wow you really made Thrasios counter spell tribal?"

[lost widget]

https://scryfall.com/card/snc/51/an-offer-you-cant-refuse

An Offer You Can't Refuse <:manau:292901508754702338>

Instant
Counter target noncreature spell. Its controller creates two Treasure tokens. (They're artifacts with ", Sacrifice this artifact: Add one mana of any color.")
Elspeth wanted answers. Xander needed a spy. Their paths were destined to cross.

[lusty trench]

Pull out another deck with baral as the commander

Don't even have to make another deck, just make sure baral is visibile

[twilit canyon]

i went low

https://www.moxfield.com/decks/CijmMyfzZ0SKZoDGEyLY2Q

19 interactive spells

[golden plover]

I should build Baral for whenever people complain about me playing counterspells

[glad peak]

Huh even then I expected something like 23

[twilit canyon]

i cut some for hermit druid

[golden plover]

I usually just switch to stax when people get annoyed at stuff like Elsha or Thrasios

But people HATE stax for no reason

[twilit canyon]

i like hermit druid lines

[glad peak]

Ah, more turbo win cons is usually a good excuse to cut removal to be fair

[twilit canyon]

yep

doubling down on fast wins

[lusty trench]

Me when no play card for turn

[twilit canyon]

also tyvar + priest of tit and bloom tendies is pretty nuts

[glad peak]

Nah, you get to have ONE card

[golden plover]

Someone wins via combo in like 75% of commander games

[fallow citrus]

yeah but which ONE card

[golden plover]

Stax is just doing my part to prevent that

[twilit canyon]

elesh norn?

[golden plover]

Hell, I've had people complain that my stupid ass Voltron deck wins too fast

Like if you can't kill a single infinitely large dog, what are you doing

[twilit canyon]

commander players will never be happy

[glad peak]

My friend is dedicating his budget to play krarkshima

[golden plover]

They really won't

[lusty trench]

You have no idea how many games I've won because people just forgot I was at the table cause I just kept casting cantrips

[glad peak]

Time to play stax

[fallow citrus]

I keep wanting to make a more casual edh deck based around dumb ideas but I just like

lose steam about 20 cards in

[golden plover]

I'm gonna miss my old shop, everyone actually wanted to win and were cool with proxies so we were all playing mostly cedh stuff

Like not fully cedh, but better than most shops I've been to

[glad peak]

Cedh is honestly hella fun

[golden plover]

It is

[glad peak]

Idk why so many people think it’s just turbo mirrors

[twilit canyon]

genuinely the only way i enjoy playing commander

[golden plover]

I really enjoy playing Elsha and Thrasios/Jeska (I know it's not a good cedh combo, but the deck is really fun to play)

[fallow citrus]

because people hear there's a best strategy and automatically assume everyone plays it

[golden plover]

Both are fast and interactive and do silly things

[fallow citrus]

same thing with every format

[glad peak]

Even then it’s not the best strategy

[fallow citrus]

not saying they'd be correct ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[golden plover]

And then stuff like Ghen and Roghark/Yoshimaru can compete with cedh decks but aren't nearly as good

[glad peak]

Thrasios/dargo is getting more popular now and is pretty fun

[golden plover]

Rogark/Yoshimaru has been my new favorite pet deck for a while

It's really dumb and I love it

[glad peak]

That reminds me of when people thought modern was all jund mirrors

[twilit canyon]

[glad peak]

It wasn’t too widespread but enough for me to hear it enough

[golden plover]

I'm thinking of building the gay kings with nothing but draw spells and ramp next since people complain about everything

My whole goal will be to sit there and not die while letting everyone else draw 50 cards

I'm sure someone will complain about that

[glad peak]

Reminds me of when the table targeted me with a cursed totem on the field when 1 opponent had a full creature combo on board

[golden plover]

I had a table kill me once in Ghen over [[Teferi's Puzzle Box]]

[lost widget]

https://scryfall.com/card/9ed/312/teferis-puzzle-box

Teferi's Puzzle Box <:mana4:292901508712890379>

Artifact
At the beginning of each player's draw step, that player puts the cards in their hand on the bottom of their library in any order, then draws that many cards.

[golden plover]

Meanwhile K'rrk was a turn off combo

The puzzle box was the only thing keeping him from doing it

[glad peak]

Yeah, the other 2 were visibly mad that their 2 mana mana dorks couldn’t make mana when they had 7 lands out

[golden plover]

People hate interaction

And it's why they always lose to the world's most obvious combos

[glad peak]

Yep I pointed out the combo and how we needed to stop it before getting rid of totem but nope they just wanted me out to play with 2 more mana

[golden plover]

Like hmm maybe the Bolas' Citadel and Aetherflux Reservoir will be used to kill everyone

[glad peak]

They removed totem and everyone loses immediately after

[golden plover]

That's how that game went too

He couldn't stack his deck to get Aetherflux because of puzzle box and not having the right tutors

But when they killed me, he was free to search it

And I pointed that out while I was getting murdered over a card that wasn't even hurting anyone

[glad peak]

Another game they did something similar, creature combo on board, totem on my field, and this time the creature it was stopping for the other 2 was something much less powerful than mana

They were being annoying so I destroyed my own totem to show them why they’re wrong

[lusty trench]

Supremely based

[rigid scarab]

If WOTC has any idea what they're doing

The eminence is gonna be a negative effect

[glad peak]

Sure but what busted effect does the commander have to be to warrant a negative eminence?

[copper pecan]

bruh i cannot wait for atraxa to get put in the hell queue

i swear like half the games of historic brawl i played today were against atraxa decks

[glad peak]

If the eminence ability turns out to be negative, I hope it’s not just life loss because that doesn’t matter and they’re more likely to overtune the creature if they have a negative eminence

Imagine a 5 color yisan but you take 4 a turn

[copper pecan]

plot twist: it's "phyrexian spells you cast cost 1 less, nonphyrexian spells you cast cost 1 more"

[sudden lava]

wait we getting a new eminence?

[copper pecan]

oh shit a battle card just got revealed

[fallow citrus]

I knew they'd be the invasions

..not that it was a difficult deduction

seems like they'll have subtypes too

and they have hp! They're just sideways PWs

[granite badge]

wow ngl this is... lame

[lusty trench]

Me when I give the battle card to the player who got mana screwed in an edh game (they physically cannot stop me from benefiting supremely from this)

Of note you can't just send it to gy to flip it, you have to defeat it

[copper pecan]

wonder if you can just bolt it to have it transform

[fallow citrus]

I'm assuming that counter is like