Bee's & Marcy's Ideal Patch notes :D

[desert kettle]

Hi, Hello, Hi.

Me and @amber mortar sat down and discussed some changes that we would love to see in the balance of beetleball. Some of these changes have 0 chance of making it into the game but some of the changes are genuinely good I think.

If you read this please comment on this thread with other ideas if you think we nerfed something too hard or not enough. would love to continue adding to this.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/126xHLfxRw-05xBcZ8Vdgbodjk4xIbNdQEH9j0O0M2Ko/edit?usp=sharing

also don't kill me some of these are controversial

[amber mortar]

https://tenor.com/view/mussolini-serious-who-cares-gif-5388395

[desert kettle]

Bee's & Marcy's Ideal Patch notes :D

@weak fox curious on your take on the tiger ideas
@obtuse burrow curious in your takes
@half briar curious on your take on the potato ideas
@lament urchin curious on your takes

I want to ping cheede but im scared he will get mad at me.

[amber mortar]

@agile spire

[desert kettle]

@iron shuttle curious on your takes too

okay no more pings forever!

[obtuse burrow]

Gonna respond when I'm not on 1 hour of sleep so I keep the slurs to a minimum

[lament urchin]

This all seems fine

I’m definitely in favor of increasing cooldown lengths to make ability usage feel more impactful for the player who uses it and for the other team to play around

[storm haven]

I think the 2 dive techs before touching the ground is good

[tawdry trout]

whasts SBD?

[storm haven]

silent but deadly

it's a wavedash thing

[tawdry trout]

i thought that was slip and slide

[tawdry trout]

i hate the clicj changes

#keep click the way it is

https://tenor.com/view/enogh-is-enough-gif-7740873707594491455

[storm haven]

https://medal.tv/games/requested/clips/mAEeZ04xM5Be1EhpZ?invite=cr-MSxGSlYsNTM2MDU2Njky&v=30

he goes super fast it's kinda hard to block

and it's great for getting away from people

[weak fox]

I think the double tp would be good to make tiger much more persistent at goal especially with the rewind goals back. Though i don't think those are coming back💀

[half briar]

i do like the cool down but try it with some 16-17 seconds and if thats broken make it 20 because there are many ways to combat the eat such as a 6+ ball or 2 ball or stuns but i think the range of the bite decreased and dash distance increased and i have other ideas that i had posted in https://discord.com/channels/1293737820862812190/1476674691216310314

over all the idea is good but the other potatos who cant defend or attack would suffer and thats fine but the shot which is awesome and the only good part would be nerfed so a fix that wouldnt nuke that is good and i think the other buffs giant peetle has should be buffed if the offball is nerfed because its all he has

@desert kettle thoughts

and make sure to actually look at the post but remember its kinda old

[iron shuttle]

I take a glance when I have a chance

[iron shuttle]

I like the lb changes, I don’t think it will affect a top level to much like the last nerf but it will force more skill expression

I’m kind of scared of the tato changes tbh

Saavi has been playing a lot of tato and one thing I’ve noticed is that if I’m not rhino or Goliath I lose a lot of regrab scenarios because of level three tater having such a big and strong headbutt

I don’t think enough people play level three tater offensively right now so I don’t think we will see it immediately, but tater might become one of the single most uncountable beetles when right in front of your net

Even if tatos stay at the net, increasing his and rhinos defenses dramatically will introduce a stall meta where a beetle with cc will probably be needed

I can see a rhino staying at net while a tato plays midfield, the rhino defends one ball and the tato gets level three, and you have something like a bee beetle in the back to buff the tato further

I would either get rid of the headbutt changes on tato or reduce it down significantly. As well as keep rhino walls the same as they are now

It makes sense for rhino walls to be weaker than ebb walls as they require less setup to do as well

[dreamy horizon]

You forgot me

What do u mean by charge

The sprint tbing if u hold q?

[iron shuttle]

Yes

[dreamy horizon]

Honestly i do think it being cancelable is very good but the thing is if you do that rhino can essentially infinitely sprint tech across the map

Maybe give it the headbutt cooldown after cancellin?

[desert kettle]

i agree with the lower cd i think… the idea is to take power away from a peetle with 0 size and add power to a peetle with 3 size

[half briar]

i hope that is what chenges if he does decide to change anythin

[desert kettle]

interesting point. i mean if its strong it can get reverted, the fact you can headbutt potato to remove size is a counter

[desert kettle]

it would likely lose a bit of cd so it cant spam it

[dreamy horizon]

Ok thats fair

These are acc pretty good imo the tiger thing prob has no chance of getting in tho

[rustic shale]

Ok uh don't give rhino better defense instead make the onball stun actually meaningful for the buff, its defense is already insanely good and with the change to becoming ebb would make it so theres no real way to counterplay just throwing up a wall besides dedicating a goal clearer... I would also rather just make the onball always go through on ping and it not just creating a random phaseable circle cause thats annoying.

[desert kettle]

rhino defence is worse then goliath defence by a lot

[random brook]

you forgot insta click but wtv

[rustic shale]

After talking with leaf it do be worse then goliath, so i guess it would be fine but if theres not a designated firefly, cyborg, or henry on goliath then its gonna feel so bad to go against, I think most rhinos would still prefer their onball stun not helping the opponent with the knockback allowing them to steal your ball with height, which would just be stun thats as long as the offball. If the offball shakey shakey on rhino was slightly less then ebb I think it would be fine. Also the stun on offball coming faster then the spikes would be more fun and encourage not being a chud like me.

[rustic shale]

also goliath parry should not turn the camera around on people, and parry needs to also not have a knockback multiplier on people, just only balls or people holding them.

[raw sable]

Hmm

That's smth

[desert kettle]

true

[raw sable]

Some of those changes are good

Some are interestinf

Some are ass

Overall better patch changes then nuin has ever done

[desert kettle]

which ones?

[raw sable]

Mainly the rhino one

Rhino fully does not need a buff to defense

Should focus more on offensive

Potato headbutt is kinda strong

Dung experimental seems unneeded

I love bungus but that buff seems a bit much (ofb part of it)

Bomba had a nothing burger

[desert kettle]

gotcha

[raw sable]

Also weevil one isn't very much of a nerf depends how much the speed cap is

[dreamy horizon]

Oh yeah i forgot Bout this

Rhinos onb needs to be buffed

Its so aids

[rustic shale]

also make it give more speed to promote aggro rhino, with maybe even a multiplier if used perfectly on the side of a wall to promote people using braincells!

It would also inherently make defensive chud rhino with onball worse cause i would be more out of posistion, so I would have to correctly choose which side to onball off of in goal to early challenge unlike a chud

[dreamy horizon]

TRuuuueed

[tough latch]

Least obvious beetle committee members

Aren’t we supposed to keep this in house?

Oh wait I just saw the message clearing it mb

[desert kettle]

lmao

[obtuse burrow]

had such a nice nap

woke up and felt like bks jizzy

anyway

so i think that to balance you kinda have to stop thinking of a balanced game as one where every beetle is the same power and instead try to make it so that the better player wins instead of the better beetle

it sounds like the same thing but the important difference is that increasing the skill expression can also have the same effect as making the game more balanced.

Like if you think about it beetleball should have absolutely dogshit balance.

if you look at any indie game (or any game period) with single ability characters there's usually a clear meta pick thats like 3 tiers above everything else

like titanfall

[shy nimbus]

?

[obtuse burrow]

and like there's barely been any patches for beetleball for balance and yet in the tourney all 6 people in the finals were on different beetles

thats like insane

[raw sable]

Well the ofb literslly just got a buff

And the onb doesn't really affect it (again depends how much it gets capped)

[shy nimbus]

offball is one of the core ways to get speed

removing that is lowkey alot

[raw sable]

How does it remove that wait what??

I'm so lost I never could be asked to understand how weevil works

It just kinda goes fast

[shy nimbus]

ig

[obtuse burrow]

Nuin forgot to add air resistance i think

Like normally there's air resistance and when the offball is active there's a different slowdown mechanic but in between there's nothing

[raw sable]

Popsicle your smart can you get nuin to fix PC diff already

It's annoying cause it affects the game the same way ping does but there's no definitive proof it's happening

Unless I ask someone what their PC specs are

[obtuse burrow]

@fluid coral

There's a poor little input event crying rn bc he wants to be on the same tick as his friends but he can't because he's on a different frame rn

[fluid coral]

These all seem reasonable except potato honestly

I think a small rework is in order for potato

Giving tiger 2 teleports could be pretty cool...

[amber mortar]

we were close to not changing potato at all

[tough latch]

He doesn’t know what this means bro

[desert kettle]

yeah the potato ideas where to like, try and encourage players to walk around at full size but ty!

[desert kettle]

yeah balance is surprisingly good

[obtuse burrow]

Yes he does

Nuin's my goat

Right nuin

Thank you nuin

[hard rover]

Yes they are encouraging that, but it also encourages really lame playstyles of just stuffing yourself with everything you can find and just merging in goal over and over

It’s discouraging use of ofb and potato cannons big time

[hard rover]

Should I be scared?

oh I should also mention I like all the other changes a lot

I dunno what cyborg push is though

[dreamy horizon]

also i dont think its fair for bomba to be nerfed that hard

[amber mortar]

discouraging offball is kind of the idea

[desert kettle]

Bomba got like

very minimal nerfs

[hard rover]

Why??

[desert kettle]

10s is not a real cooldown

why should potato get ability to strip a 5 size on 10s cooldown

[dreamy horizon]

I dont know the coooldowm seems kinda evil

[amber mortar]

thats the goop not the bomb

[desert kettle]

on ball bomba rn has no cooldown

[dreamy horizon]

Oh shoot I misread my bad 😭

[hard rover]

That’s fair, it should have roughly the same as whatever dung beetle ofb has

But it should not buff onb

Onball’s already good enough

[amber mortar]

nobody uses it

[hard rover]

A LOT of potatoes use it

The most popular ones don’t

[amber mortar]

they're the most popular because they're the best i would think

[hard rover]

Cristian and axolotl both use it a ton and they’re both top Peetle players

It’s just based on your playstyle

Me and axo don’t use it

.

If you were to implement these changes though the best thing would be to also remove ofb spit close to goal

just cause merging in goal like that is already much harder to stop than normal goal merging because it takes 1 headbutt per dung

[faint torrent]

"potato stay same" nerfs potato beetle so hard it makes tiger look S tier

also you shouldn't really just replace a beetles onb entirely esp with bungus where its onb is so important to its kit

[desert kettle]

oh whoops

[desert kettle]

i just think it kinda sucks

[faint torrent]

I agree with what beetles to nerf and what to buff and what to keep the same but I dont agree with the proposed nerfs and buffs for like half of them

[desert kettle]

i meant to write potato nerf

[faint torrent]

why tho

its fine rn

[desert kettle]

idk

im 5050 on it

[faint torrent]

its like

[desert kettle]

i think 10s on off ball is stupid

[faint torrent]

low A tier in 3v3s imo

[faint torrent]

I could agree on changing ofb to 15s if you buffed some other parts of it to make skinny peetle playstyle not unviable

[desert kettle]

i just think off ball should have a real cd

[amber mortar]

limiting changes to being based on where things go on a tier list is silly

[desert kettle]

the other changes are buffs

[faint torrent]

only for fat peetle players

[desert kettle]

i think 15 is fair

you should have to interact with your whole kit

players only interacting with half the kit is sign of a design failure

[faint torrent]

to an extent yeah, I think the 3 peetle should have 1.5x distance headbutts instead of stronger headbutts imo though

you gotta remember tho peetle is basically two kits in one

1.5x stronger than rhino headbutts is insanity tho

[amber mortar]

true

[desert kettle]

1.25x stronger then?

[faint torrent]

rhino headbutt already sends light weight beetles nearly all the way across gamba

[desert kettle]

the like issue rn

is that potato beetle puts a lot of work to get 3 size

and then they have like

rhino headbutt and no better

[faint torrent]

yeah but rhino headbutt is already enough, its the strongest in the game for player KB (goliath has slightly stronger ball kb) the issue with it for defense is the headbutt distance

its goliath size if not a bit bigger but has relative to its size tiny headbutts

its headbutts in 3 ball state should be slightly buffed in distance imo

which would make it more incentivized to use for both defensive and offensive peetle mains

[desert kettle]

i agree

[faint torrent]

@hard rover as the peetle guy what do you think

imo longer headbutt in eaten ball state would make it better for both defense and offense and incentivise full use of the kit more than just making skinny peetle useless

[raw sable]

False

You go higher than a click with ofb grab

[faint torrent]

click ofb grab gives a shit ton of horizontal speed too

[raw sable]

Ok but it's not on 10s cooldown

[faint torrent]

I agree the bite should have a longer cd but not twice the cd

[raw sable]

The onb is fun but really not good

I went whole tourneys not using it once

[raw sable]

For what you get out of it I think it's fair

[faint torrent]

the onb is pretty easily disrupted and isn't often very good which is why I think a short ofb cooldown is fair, I agree 10s is a bit too short tho

make it 15

[raw sable]

It's just you get a dungs dash out of it a click height out of it and full defense unless they spend extra time cracking the ball plus peetle cannon

It's a lot of things

So idk maybe 17.5

[faint torrent]

I mean isnt dungs dash also 10s

actually isnt it like 7.5

[raw sable]

Ok and why should you just get that ability plus more?

[faint torrent]

you dont

dungs dash is good cuz you can dung tech

[raw sable]

Meh

[faint torrent]

peetle bite is vertical dung tech to an extent

plus it has an onb that isn't really that good

[raw sable]

If that's all you're using it for then you're not a great dung

[faint torrent]

I know there's more than dung tech but that honestly just furthers my point to an extent

its good for getting back when balls stolen but peetle bite cant do that

cuz it only gives distance with bite grab

otherwise its like lb tap q

[raw sable]

Twin you have a flutter dash on shooting a ball out

[faint torrent]

english please

[raw sable]

Sorry one letter was wrong

[faint torrent]

you need a ball in you for that already

dung doesnt need anything for flutter dash

flutter dash is also more distance

[raw sable]

Ok but you still get that

Just as a side part on top of what the beetles used for

[faint torrent]

yeah but dung gets that for free

[raw sable]

Ok youre still not mentioning the fact you're on a different beetle just getting what another beetle gets

Plus more

[faint torrent]

yeah but its on a longer cooldown and just to get close to what the other gets it needs external resources which you don't often have

why leave dung ofb on 7.5 if you wanna change peetle ofb to 20 esp since peetle onb isnt very good

[raw sable]

You don't often have a ball in your mouth??

[faint torrent]

no

[raw sable]

Oh dung ofb should be 10s

[faint torrent]

fat peetle players often do but they dont have the ability to bite grab

cuz having a ball in your mouth stops you from biting

and bite is needed for peetle to steal properly

[raw sable]

Ngl if I continue debating this I'll be late for school

So good debate maybe continue it later

[hollow schooner]

nerfing weevil but not dung?

oh wait nvm

[light bobcat]

i agree with most of the balance changes, except for dung flutter dash nerf

and cyborg push

he should have like a 175% push nerf

but not get it removed

oh, and removing bombas sbd's

since it is a hard tech to pull out

i think that there should be some techs that doesnt gets removed, but do get harder to pull out

[light bobcat]

100%, having flutter dash and wavedash makes no sense on dung

he can always go fast

i'd say even 10s is way too fast, 12s makes more sense

i can spam trimps, spam wavedashes, spam flutterdashes, spam everything, and always have very little punishement

[iron shuttle]

Anyways I give the patch notes like a 8.5 out of ten

[iron shuttle]

That’s actually true

Even looking at the overlap between the top three it’s only one beetle

Still mad I lost my fantasy bracket though

[drowsy cloak]

Ok for ebb

1. U forgot about infinite dive tech

2. U only really do 1 dive tech anyways before touching the ground

3. Im ok with the wall delay as it only really affects defense

[hard rover]

stuff like Peetle flutter dash is just more difficult and risky moves to pull off though, like you have to look backwards to do a flutter dash which makes you very vulnerable

[hard rover]

I agree with all that

I might honestly just buff onb but get rid of stored ofb in/near goal to prevent the gimmicky playstyles

And then other changes I might reduce the range (hitbox?) of ofb a little bit cause it’s kinda ridiculous

This ofb had no business hitting the ball

And giving it a slightly longer cd

[faint torrent]

ehhh the ofb hitbox is a bit big which is weird but it's not really something that needs to be nerf imo

[hard rover]

I think it would nerf the Peetle goalie that so many people hate

It seems like they were trying to do that here when they were talking about 10s cooldown being too little to strip a 5

[ivory dawn]

i agree with the ff change but rhino is going to be VERY good with these buffs

i think it should refund half of the ability instead of cancelling and getting the whole thing back

[faint torrent]

esp with 50% more speed

[amber mortar]

My thought was that it would leave the cooldown bar where it was when you cancelled it

[ivory dawn]

yeah thats probably the best fix for it

[drowsy cloak]

Ya

[mild python]

bro goliath parry being able to deal with multi sometimes is the only reason goliath is even viable bro 😭

its not even consistant either

like i prefire the parry cus ping and ppl can still just go through it

imo buff hes defense and nerf tech like beetle punch cus i think that there should just be a goalie beetle in the game

[rain sage]

i personally disagree

But, goliath offense wont be nerfed, and goliath defense would be nerfed by that change

But the reason goliath defense is opressive isnt due to parry

Its the overtuned headbutt size

[mild python]

imo this isnt even that big of a deal tbh you can easily gk at the same level with the less hb distance

[rain sage]

not the distance, the size of the headbutt hitbox

[mild python]

didnt know the hb was bigger so prolly tbf

[rain sage]

Also this weevil change might kill the beetle

[hard rover]

It doesn’t remove Kyle tech, which is still an extremely good tech for weevil that’s easier than hump tech with a bit less speed

[hard rover]

I might kill super click

but honestly it’s not even THAT much of a problem

But y’know nuin doesn’t like infinite height techs and even though that’s not infinite it is still an absurd amount of height

[amber mortar]

lowk forgot to remove that

I would rather have hump tech than Kyle tech

[hard rover]

Absolutely

[amber mortar]

I know people like offensive weevil but it's not really what the beetle is supposed to do

Is making the onball push people away crazy

[amber mortar]

@desert kettle

[hard rover]

I think so.. it would kinda ruin weevils potential for movement completely

The idea of some ability pushing other things away in a field is a fun one though

[amber mortar]

You could maybe use the wind to boost you up and airchall, and also pushing people away from your net is probably easier than pulling

[hard rover]

[amber mortar]

Weevil movement is evil and janky though

[hard rover]

Absolutely

[amber mortar]

What if you throw a windy ball at your friend and they get pushed forward

[hard rover]

maybe if he just went back to relying on the ball pulling him

So no hump tech no Kyle tech

Just pulling yourself up and mting

[hard rover]

For the pushes things version?

[amber mortar]

Yes

I suppose it would be even worse than bomba is for killing your teammates though

[hard rover]

Yeah

I do really like the idea of onb pushing you

But I think it’s just a change that weevil players really wouldn’t like

[desert kettle]

yes

it is crazy

[hard rover]

too different for an ability people already use

But like

Would be really really cool on a new beetle

[amber mortar]

The thing is that that ability is aids and most of its usage is bugs

[hard rover]

I just think this would be like ideal world

[obtuse burrow]

Welcome back playtest FF onball

[hard rover]

But wouldn’t actually happen

[amber mortar]

Yeah

[faint torrent]

yes

weevil onb movement is fun af dont kill it

[dusty sage]

Lowkey atrocious ideas for ladybug

Its headbut is already way weaker

Reduce dung swinger to 1 charge and cap its speed

[faint torrent]

I honestly agree with bk icl

whats the point of nerfing its headbutt it already moves beetles like 2 milimeters

[ivory dawn]

they meant knockback

not how strong the headbutt is

i think

but i feel like that should only apply to teammates

[amber mortar]

It makes its defense and scoring potential worse

Lb has to much going for it at net

[faint torrent]

yeah I'm aware

apperantly not though

[amber mortar]

It's not meant for beetles, it's for balls

[faint torrent]

wouldnt that

be a buff

[ivory dawn]

so to nerf its reheadbutts?

[faint torrent]

?

cuz if you block a ball with headbutt you can then press Q to catch it midair

[amber mortar]

You can already do that

[dusty sage]

Not really

[ivory dawn]

lb needs a rework icl

no nerf could do it right

[dusty sage]

Its holes can be blown out with 1 headbut into the net

Ladybug is trash rn btw

It gets passed around and manhandled by literally everything else

[amber mortar]

That's true but nobody actually headbutts you and if they try you have enough mobility to dodge

[dusty sage]

Headbutting ladybug is so easy

[faint torrent]

makes it good for boosting

[dusty sage]

Not really

[faint torrent]

I lwk do agree it might wanna have its kb slightly reduced

cuz way back when going against wy I'd just bully him on rhino all game

cuz rhino headbutt sends lb like a mile back

[dusty sage]

So does click aids

And bomba aids

[ivory dawn]

give it 3 ofb charges that work like ff ofb but without the explosion and make it not last as long as ff

[dusty sage]

That aids

Npoxs rework be like jiat make it firefly but worse

[faint torrent]

wouldn't that kill its whole air thing

[dusty sage]

It would kill everythinf

[ivory dawn]

not really

just click with a lower cd and also horizontal

[faint torrent]

@dusty sage can you start making some bad takes like tiger being too op I need to disagree with you

I'm agreeing too much

[ivory dawn]

and without kb ofc

[dusty sage]

Losing to ladybug after its current 50 nerfd is highkey a skill issue

[faint torrent]

it's still low S tier rn

[dusty sage]

Not really

[faint torrent]

I think unironically rhino as been nerfed more times than LB

[dusty sage]

Not really

[ivory dawn]

tbf it was pretty busted back when it had 5 secs stun

[dusty sage]

I think rhino has only ever been buffed

[faint torrent]

fair but the onb stun has been nerfed to be actively worse to hit

[dusty sage]

Its onball is so broken

Bring back old onball

[ivory dawn]

ig

[faint torrent]

I don't think its ever been buffed brody

[ivory dawn]

the rework was a buff

[dusty sage]

The 2 reworks were buffs

[faint torrent]

arguably

[faint torrent]

2?

[dusty sage]

Yeah in the playtest the onball made you automatically run into players and balls and fling them behind you

Prealpha I mean

[faint torrent]

yeah alright great great gramps

[amber mortar]

Didn't the wall used to be unbreakable

[faint torrent]

wall used to be unbreakable but ofb used to fling ball without you

[dusty sage]

It was better

[faint torrent]

I honestly thing the old onb was better if you just got good with it

[dusty sage]

Now its just another aids teleport

[amber mortar]

Ah

[faint torrent]

STOP SAYING THINGS I AGREE WITH

[amber mortar]

Axo identity crisis

[faint torrent]

but yeah the rework kinda took a lot of the creativity out of rhino even if it was a buff in a lot of cases technically

[amber mortar]

I lowk don't know most of the changes on this post because it was 3 am and I was just saying yes or no to bee

[dusty sage]

Always say no to bee

[faint torrent]

half of them suck

which beetles to nerf buff and keep the same are good but the proposed changes are extroardinarily hit or miss

[amber mortar]

Idk why hump tech is gone but Kyle tech isnt

[dusty sage]

Prealpha ladybujg was just firefly without the blast I think he reused the code

Rework dung entirely rhoigh

[dreamy horizon]

Keep the headbutt knockback on ladybug im not biased because im a rhino main

[oak lark]

[agile spire]

I agree but tiger isnt hit enough

[quiet sable]

How does increased cd work on recharge abilities?

[faint torrent]

recharges slower

[obtuse burrow]

finally finished finals so i have time to finish my yap

if anyone interrupts me i will beetle hamslot

anyway

my point from like a week ago was that balance is less about making the beetles as close in power level as possible and more about making it so that the winner of the game is determined by the better player instead of the better beetle

or in other words the skill expression needs to be greater than the difference in balance

so with beetleball the game is not balanced at all, and yet we still get 6 different beetles in the grand finals of the last tournament

[obtuse burrow]

here's the rest of that thread if anyone's interested

so there reason why beetleball is somewhat balanced rn is because the skill expression is so absurdly high that even if someone is slightly better than someone else at the game, they can beat a significantly better beetle.

(skill expression is how good you are in a game translate to how much you win, so a game like chess has a lot of skill expression because someone with just a few hours played can easily beat a new player, while roulette has zero skill expression because no matter how good you are you can't influence how often you win)

There's no real concrete evidence for beetleball's high skill expression, but the game bears a lot of similarities with other super high skill expression games that don't struggle with balance because of it.

I'm gonna use starcraft and melee as an example (very high skill expression games).

like with starcraft 2 when a new patch drops, it takes months for pros to adapt, as even though the new strategies are better, players are so much worse at executing them that they're not viable until people have put more practice in

which is similar to how not many people have swapped their main to longhorn or potato despite them being really strong (the discord role breakdown shows this)

Also, both starcraft and melee have a lot of player expression, where players play the same faction/character very differently because the skill expression is so high that you can just master one element of a faction/character that you like and not worry about the ones you don't like

this is also true in beetleball where all of the ebb mains play completely differently (smiley uses his infinite height glide thing, jeet does a lot of dive tech momentum transfers, I stall on pillars a lot, etc)

THIS IS THE IMPORTANT PART

So although beetleball has super high skill expression for most of the game, certain parts do not, and that is where most of the balance problems come from.

For example

• cyborg's offball has very little skill expression for both players, as hitting the shot is very easy to do and the other player can do nothing about it
• tiger has far more limited options compared to other beetles, so while dung can dash anywhere or ladybug can fly anywhere, tiger can only tp to like 3 places or recall to one at any given time. This reduces player expression and skill expression, and prevents better players from becoming as dominant as other beetle mains do
• when ladybug air stalls, the opposing player cannot interact at all, meaning no matter how good they are they cannot attempt to steal the ball

The point is that these beetles are weak not just because of some numbers nuin set, but because a stalling ladybug could be playing against wyatt or jerald and they would still be able to stall

or it could be bee against 4 year old timmy or bee against the best beetleball player ever and she would still hit the cyborg shot every time,

or a tiger beetle is going to stop a momentum transfer with offball but no matter who's playing the beetle they can only press one button

it isn't the fact that these beetles are good or bad, its that fact that it doesn't matter if YOU are good or bad, which makes the winner determined by the balance of the game instead of the skill of the player

anyway

.

CYBORG CHANGES

The problem with cyborg is that there's very little interaction with offball, like i said before.

First person shooter games are designed around dodging hitscan shots using cover or movement, and beetleball's maps are not designed for that as there's no cover when the cyborg is in the skybox hunting you like an AC 130

in addition, you can pretty much hit the cyborg snipe blindfolded after only a little practice, so it doesn't really matter how good the cyborg player is either.

you could increase the cooldown as much as you want (it could have an infinite cd with only one use per round and it would probably still be good), or reduce push or stun or whatever but that doesn't remove the core problems listed above

[faint torrent]

W snitch

[raw sable]

Completely defeats the point of letting them finish talking

[drifting skiff]

holy yap

I might even read it eventually

[obtuse burrow]

if you keep nerfing it eventually it will feel like tiger and super limited, but you'll never be able to find a middle ground unless you add more interactivity

like for example firefly onball is 3x worse to get hit by but the ability to dodge it (even a little) and the fact it is far harder to hit at long ranges means that there's so much more skill expression for both players, so it feels more balanced

also the dash struggles to be useful, as unlike shooters there's nothing fast enough that requires the dash to dodge in beetleball.

like tracer blink is the highest skill ceiling ability in ow because you can dodge flashbang and widow shots and basically anything, but there's none of that in beetleball.

I've been trying to think of a solution and other than a dumb railgun idea that launches a ball super super fast i can't think of anything

beetle probably needs a major rework tbh

[amber mortar]

I like playing against a cyborg laser

When I know they're going to use it, I throw the ball somewhere that gives me an advantage as it's stunned

The big problem is bumping imo

[obtuse burrow]

wait wait gimme a sec

i don't have anything super specific for the other beetles, i just feel like in general most of the changes are reducing skill ceiling so they are going to make the game less balanced and less fun in the future

ok i have a few

Rhino: I think the bigger problem is that onball can only be used on the ground and doesn't go that far, and offball can only be used very close to goal. Both of these limit skill expression, as the rhino beetle is stuck near goal and can't interact with the rest of the game as much. Instead of limiting ur opponent's ability to stop the wall (lowering skill expression more) i think it would be cool if the rhino could aim the air blast projectile that causes the wall, which would allow the rhino to play at more unique angles and farther away. Positioning still matters, as the projectile has travel time so being farther away requires a lot more skill to block goals (but not impossible)

other stuff that I feel like lowers skill expression and will cause problems down the road:

• ladybug headbutt nerf
• tiger rewind into goal (reduces skill expression of opponent blocking)
• Weevil’s offball windup no longer affects velocity. (experimental)
• pretty much every cooldown increase

.

the last thing is about cooldowns.

• Ik bbnate said that increasing cooldowns makes it seem more impactful, but i strongly disagree. shitty abilities on long cooldowns feel AWFUL (dr strange tp, or anything else in marvel rivals), and the impact is determined by a combination of the ability's visual effects and the effects of the ability itself.

• most of these cooldown changes won't change much, as people rarely use abilities on cooldown anyway.

• higher cooldowns prevent you from influencing the game as much which lowers skill expression

• most of the cooldown changes don't touch on the problems i complained about extensively above and feel like a bandaid fix

[drowsy cloak]

woh

[obtuse burrow]

I yapped about why long cooldowns suck a lot more here. I do understand how long cooldowns introduce counterplay and stuff, I just don't think increasing cooldowns slightly is a great way to balance

ok im done

@amber mortar

@desert kettle @fluid coral @raw sable

[drowsy cloak]

tbf i dont use the infinite height that much

i just do normal dive tech

i only use it if they are abusing some bs

[obtuse burrow]

i mean yeah but you can still tell the difference from me jeet and you just from watching a clip

[drowsy cloak]

jeet does dive momentum transfers and i use normal dive tech

[obtuse burrow]

yeah and i miss my momentum transfers

[drowsy cloak]

its kinda like lower risk lower reward vs higher risk higher reward

[obtuse burrow]

tf is a bump

[drowsy cloak]

i do too

[drowsy cloak]

i miss my hb grabs sometimes

at least twice per match

[drifting skiff]

actually I think I lied

[obtuse burrow]

i hit them twice per match usually

[amber mortar]

saying long cooldowns are bad is silly

[drifting skiff]

I feel like doing that would lower skill expression bc it would force the onball to have one main use

[obtuse burrow]

i guess a better way to say it is that making cooldowns long for no reason is really really bad

long cooldowns can be hype if the ability is super impactful and people have to bait them out and shit

like ff offball

[tough latch]

i didn't read the patch note suggestions or what popsicle said but imma side with popsicle because i have to pick

[amber mortar]

i dont see where your problem is because the rest of the long cooldowns are impactful, except like, weevil offball

[drifting skiff]

I think click onball’s knock back should get a general radius buff, or at least a retiming so that you can push people trying to headbutt you away

[amber mortar]

you can shoot a goalie and bump them away

there's a little bit of skill in it but its basically free

[drifting skiff]

evil bbnate

thunderstorms

[drowsy cloak]

def

[obtuse burrow]

ah

[drowsy cloak]

it needs to be more consistant

[drowsy cloak]

so true

[amber mortar]

this would feel so bad for anyone else

[obtuse burrow]

yeah it removes the skill expression of the goalie because you can't do much against it

and its easy to do so there's no skill expression from the other side as wel

[drowsy cloak]

it basically doesnt work rn

[drifting skiff]

but sometimes there’s some atrocious grabs or headbutts and it feels terrible for the click

I think a retiming, where the knockback activates a little before the actual launch, would be best

it would push people back and let the click move, while still being possible to time it to steal

and the click player would still have to use their brain to disrupt people instead of just being in the general area

[obtuse burrow]

"click player"

"brain"

[drifting skiff]

hey 😡

[obtuse burrow]

xelokz brings the mean down unfortunately

[amber mortar]

i dont agree actually with any of the cooldown changes actually besides potato eat, ladybug onball, and bomba goop

[obtuse burrow]

same💀

[drifting skiff]

I haven’t read the actual form but extending cd for those abilities seems really reasonable

[obtuse burrow]

lady is good and i don't have enough ball knowledge to comment on bomba but it sounds fine

[amber mortar]

bomba goop like actually never runs out

unless you're holding it down for no reason

[livid basin]

Just spent like 10 minutes reading that and popsicle is mostly right I think

[drifting skiff]

the way bomba is played rn, it should never run out

[livid basin]

True

[obtuse burrow]

i wanna say give it 3 charges where each charge releases for one second but that feels like it would suck

[livid basin]

You'd still be able to do most bomba tech but yeah that would suck

[obtuse burrow]

and if you only get like 2s of goop it would be really hard for newer players

[livid basin]

I don't think you know how newer players play bomba 😬

[amber mortar]

what do you mean with the tiger thing? it added something to tiger and was already easy to counter

[obtuse burrow]

bc ur opponent doesn't really have chance to block (unless I'm wrong)

[amber mortar]

you could block it, it was just different

[drifting skiff]

it was easy to see coming if you had object permanence

[amber mortar]

you had to follow the ball instead of sitting in net

[livid basin]

Woah, big words

[obtuse burrow]

what if you like headbutt the ball to try and save and then they just offball onball

like you can't reach the ball in time

[amber mortar]

why would you do that instead of grabbing it

[livid basin]

Uhh idk how known this is but during tiger onball I think u can just grab the ball while the tiger is mid teleport

[amber mortar]

idk it was never an issue for me and bee

[livid basin]

I've done it against boneboy like 3 times

[obtuse burrow]

or like you goliath offball

[livid basin]

Might've been lag tho

[amber mortar]

yes

you can grab it before or after they teleport and they lose it either way because they lose their headbutt and grab cooldowns

[drowsy cloak]

it isnt

[obtuse burrow]

idk it could be fine i never had any problems with it

[livid basin]

No no, I mean like while the tiger was moving

[drowsy cloak]

yea

[obtuse burrow]

it just sounds hella frustrating especially for newer players

[drowsy cloak]

its like how it can pick up balls on its path

[amber mortar]

oh yeah that too

[livid basin]

Yeah I think they gotta remove that bc that shit looked like aids to play against 😭

[amber mortar]

you didnt play against it ;-;

[livid basin]

Yeah I felt bad for boneboy bc he would just be across the map while I had his ball just bc he hit q

[amber mortar]

oh do you mean the grab thing mid teleport

[livid basin]

Yes

[amber mortar]

yeah thats dumb

[livid basin]

Mhm

[drowsy cloak]

its not teleporting if they can get u

lol

[amber mortar]

• ladybug is both the best striker and best midfielder as it is, the headbutt nerf was meant to narrow it to the midfield without making it necessarily bad at scoring
• weevil needs a rework, none of the changes we wrote down or thought about writing down would fix it

[drowsy cloak]

lb wont be able to hurt a fly with its hb soon enough

[amber mortar]

holy ominous

[drowsy cloak]

but it will hurt a bunch of peoples souls

as they scream for it to be nerfed further

[quiet sable]

My personal suggestion for a tiger change would be to allow the teleport to target the ground as well. Imagine lh Onball targeting but for tiger offball.

[obtuse burrow]

Why is headbutt good only in the midfield?

[drowsy cloak]

its just worse in striker since it makes regrabs harder i think

[livid basin]

So it doesn't go back in time?

[amber mortar]

yeag

[quiet sable]

No like tiger Offball teleport isn’t just limited to dung balls

[drowsy cloak]

hmm

[drifting skiff]

the problem with that is lb doesn’t even need regrabs, it can just keep trying at the goal over and over

[livid basin]

Ohh I get it now that would probably be good

[drifting skiff]

it would help though

[amber mortar]

its a lot harder that way though

like you can just put yourself in the death angle with your onball and have a giant advantage

[obtuse burrow]

Oh and @lament urchin

[livid basin]

https://tenor.com/view/sonbrero-son-sonion-blasterdoll-gif-10302947654662408028

[drifting skiff]

“death angle” true tho

[obtuse burrow]

If u nerf onball cooldown doesn't that prevent it as well tho

[drowsy cloak]

it makes it last less time

holy grammar

it doesnt last as long

[amber mortar]

kind of but not fully

i mean not significantly

[obtuse burrow]

Why?

[quiet sable]

I could be wrong but I thought it was still possible to rewind into goal

[livid basin]

Nah u go right in front of it

[drowsy cloak]

nop

:(

[amber mortar]

i mean unless you make it so the onball has almost no meter, you can still use it that way

i guess that adds a choice of whether to use it to dodge in the midfield

[quiet sable]

It works on the lobby but not maps it looks like

[analog burrow]

K, just read through. I can't give opinions on most of the beetles (I do think some nerfs are a bit harsh, but I don't play em) but I was surprised for the two I use to be buffed (Tiger and Rhino)
For tiger, I definitely like the two charges and renewal of the old rewind tech, even if there is an itty bitty nerf. I would want to see some protection from grabs when teleporting to a ball, since it just takes the entire charge away, but only like 0.5 seconds or grab protecting, (not headbutt tho, that seems fair as it a lot less likely to be accidental)

[drowsy cloak]

yea

[analog burrow]

And for rhino, it seems pretty nice. no change for him

[obtuse burrow]

Ohh i see

I high-key need to play against you and bee

[livid basin]

U don't want that

[livid basin]

Stole my freaking joke

Damn clicker

[drifting skiff]

I did in fact read all of it

the whooollleee post

[hollow schooner]

liar

[drifting skiff]

rude

[livid basin]

Truth

[harsh otter]

• Removed Beetlebrian

[raw sable]

Um pop

Tiger tp back into goal

How does that possibly reduce skill expression of the goalie?

Unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean by skill expression

[obtuse burrow]

Bc the goalie doesn't have a chance to block

[raw sable]

Umm

Twin do you know how tiger works?

First of all the rewind takes 2.5 seconds to pull off which is plenty of time to reach him

[obtuse burrow]

It's like 0.75 I'm p sure

[raw sable]

Mainly becauss if you are thing back into goal it has to be close to the goal

Secondly

If you headbutt the trail at any point since the tiger first presses q it knocks the ball out their hands

[obtuse burrow]

WHAT

[raw sable]

And thirdly rn you can literally just grab the ball from the trail

[obtuse burrow]

WHAT

[raw sable]

Yeah twin this has been part of the game since playtest

[raw sable]

It sure as hell doesn't feel like 0.75 😭😭

[raw sable]

Oh worst part is if they headbutt slightly late the tiger onb happens but the tiger just doesn't have the ball in the new location

So it wastes a 30 second ability just to be out of position and the enemy to be in position with the ball

[obtuse burrow]

There's so much game breaking stuff you can do with this

[weak fox]

literally what happened to me in this clip https://medal.tv/games/beetleball/clips/mHndPpujj8hF8etad?invite=cr-MSxBdlcsMTQ0MzI1ODEw&v=12

[raw sable]

Yeah this is normal tiger atp

Also because the trail is currently fucked up they barely even have to aim for it

[weak fox]

yeahhh

there is a reason I dont play that much lol

[raw sable]

Cause the trail appears different on your screen and their screen and it cares about their screen

So if they headbutt the air next to you trail you lose ball

Lowkey nerf tiger guys

[obtuse burrow]

@rain sage

[raw sable]

There's so many problems with tiger atp

[raw sable]

Twin I'm sorry but like Mars knows about this

This is known

[obtuse burrow]

No

Gimme a sec

[raw sable]

[obtuse burrow]

If you ebb grab the trail i think you can just teleport the ball into goal

Bc the two tps compound

Ur also invisible and invincible from ebb tp

[raw sable]

Oh uh if you want actual tech with this look at bgb? I think that's what it was called

[storm haven]

i was mentioned

also I do both

dive transfers are kinda high risk high reward

[storm haven]

same

[rain sage]

🔥 popcicle you cooked again. And cooked so cleanly i dont think any beetle baller has a more accurate take on the game.

I wish stuff like air stalling was somehow rebalanced for all beetles because when you’re attempting to air stall while still being in range of others the gameplay gets so fun and interesting.

Goliath beetle and Lady bug are so disproportionately better at air stalling than other beetles though so i only get to enjoy that situation when im playing an S tier character against an S tier character.

[obtuse burrow]

🙏

[obtuse burrow]

Yeah 100% there's just no easy way to do it

[storm haven]

WHAT THE HECKY

MARS

YOU ARE ALIVE???

[rain sage]

Ive been in deep meditation. Ive become one with goliath.

[storm haven]

ermmm

when will you be back

[rain sage]

3 days

[storm haven]

thats so longggggggggg

we miss you

[rain sage]

I miss you all too 😭

[storm haven]

-# glazer

[amber mortar]

• cyborgs skill expression is mostly in cooldown management, as you have to choose when to use the laser. I've explained before why I don't think the person getting shot has no options.
• there's more to skill expression than just mechanics, tigers skill expression is in when you teleport and how you set it up
• half the cast has abilities for this and lb airstalling like that isn't good anywat

If every beetle had the same strengths it would be very boring

[faint torrent]

EBB is really good at catching aidstallers if you have a prior setup

same with fung

and click to and extent

[amber mortar]

Beetleball is balanced right now because all of the top players play their main instead of what is good

If the community was bigger that wouldn't happen

[faint torrent]

"beetleball is balanced"

[amber mortar]

His words not mine!!

[faint torrent]

anyways the top players mostly play their main instead of what's good because the beetles are incredibly well designed to fit peoples different playstyles meaning people play what they find the most fun, and since they're good at the game they can make it work even if the beetle isn't very good

@raw sable is a prime example of this

[amber mortar]

This is why I don't agree with a lot of Popsicle is saying

[raw sable]

Yes except for tiger

No amount of skill can make up for how ass tiger is

Except me sometimes

[faint torrent]

and @weak fox

[raw sable]

I cook in tourneys on tiger but it's rare

[raw sable]

And vail

[raw sable]

I miss you twin but hey I got nuin to agree to our idea

[obtuse burrow]

Wait till bee beetle oddball comes out and you'll see

[faint torrent]

too bad you gotta wait for release...

[raw sable]

That's if I even get the ideas across by then

Nuin hasn't read them yet

[obtuse burrow]

No but this game really is high-key balanced compared to any other game where you can swap out just one ability

Like either tf2

[raw sable]

It is pretty much

Except tiger

I know this is bad to hear from a tiger playe cause it'll sound like cope

But literally

Tiger is currently F tier and second worst is B

That's the current gap 😭

[obtuse burrow]

I mean yeah there's shit you can do but it's so 1 dimensional

Like every other ability in the game has the when to use it component as well as like 8 other things

And with cyborg often when doesn't even matter and it's more of just a do i use it or no

[raw sable]

I still don't understand where the cyborg criticism is coming from

[amber mortar]

Not every ability has to be a precise dash or a thrown grenade

Also it matters moreso on cyborg and tiger because of the cooldowns

You have to think a lot more on those beetles

[obtuse burrow]

Wdym?

There's plenty of long cool downs

[amber mortar]

Sure but with ebb and ff wasting your cd doesn't matter as much because you have a second ability with a shorter one

Not ebb actually

[obtuse burrow]

Yeah you lose dive

[obtuse burrow]

I mean ebb playtest offball is mechanically similar to cyborg laser and it was miserable

And I'm not saying that we should make cyborg more mechanically intensive at the expense of strategy but ebb dive is so much more fun

And I don't think any ebb players like dive tech because you can't do it when offball is on cooldown

[storm haven]

i like it

I can still play when I don't have it

[obtuse burrow]

It's not what makes it good tho

[storm haven]

well you said you don't think any ebb players like dive tech

[obtuse burrow]

Oh lmao

No i meant that dive tech is good because it's a fun ability with zero cool down that has a ton of tech and expression and not because you can't use it off cooldown

[storm haven]

ah

[faint torrent]

not balanced just well designed

[raw sable]

Lol yeah well designed twin sure

[faint torrent]

kits are well designed at least not so sure about the abilities themselves as individual things

[raw sable]

L

B

It's just fly and another fly

Click is jump and another jump

[faint torrent]

every rule has an exception

[storm haven]

L

B

aka

P

O

U

N

D

S

[raw sable]

Besides those most beetles have well designed kits

[raw sable]

L American

[storm haven]

no not really

[raw sable]

Yes??

only country that uses pounds twin

[storm haven]

nah pounds are also money

[raw sable]

A POUND IS FORM PROPER CURRENCY MY YOUND CHAP

or smth

[storm haven]

lol

americans are w

[raw sable]

https://tenor.com/view/hatsune-miku-are-you-british-british-your-mom-miku-gif-10809727938553525273

[storm haven]

the only problem is she is 16

[raw sable]

@small gorge

[raw sable]

Dang

[drifting skiff]

and yet clicks onball manages to be leagues worse than its offball

[raw sable]

Thats only because ofb has click shot

Which wasn't intentional

[drifting skiff]

no not only

using offball in a straight up click launch is still better than onball

it’s harder to steal from

also offball conserves some momentum

[obtuse burrow]

i mean yeah but its balanced bc its well designed

[small gorge]

?

Anyways these changes are.

Changes of all time

[faint torrent]

chances?

[small gorge]

Typo

It's like

Ladybug onball CD increase? Uh?

Click without any nerfs?!

[faint torrent]

nerf LB but onball cd increase is definitely interesting to say the least

[small gorge]

Yeah that's what I'm saying

I do think headbutt reduction is a good change

Might make it more balanced

[raw sable]

That's lowkey a buff to lb

So no

[small gorge]

Eh?

[raw sable]

Anyways I was just @ing you about the message before you're opinions on this aren't real because you don't play the game ever

[small gorge]

Oh if she headbutts balls they go less far so it's easier to regrab?

Yeah I see your point

[raw sable]

Yea

[small gorge]

Which message before

Also I do play the game lol

[raw sable]

I do yeah

You dont

[small gorge]

I do

[raw sable]

Nope

[small gorge]

I do

Anyways longhorn nerfs are

Interesting

I'm for them

But uh

Maybe get nuin to fix it first?

[raw sable]

Sure

[small gorge]

When 1/3 grapples just doesn't fucking work, I kinda need the 3 charges

[small gorge]

Stop ragebaiting

I haven't had dinner I WILL fall for it

[raw sable]

Anyways I lowkey don't agree with half these changes

But lh ones are good

[small gorge]

Yeah same

[small gorge]

Lh?

[raw sable]

It NEEDS an onb nerf

And hard

[raw sable]

Long horn

[small gorge]

I know

But like

It also needs to get fixed

[raw sable]

Rn it literally has inifinite onbs

[small gorge]

Half my grapples don't work and I lose a charge

[raw sable]

And with just 2 you clear the map

[small gorge]

1

You need one

[raw sable]

I was saying one of them was used to get away from enemy

Then another to clear map

Normally how it goes for me

[small gorge]

Idk how I feel about tiger teleporting into goal again

Shrug

[small gorge]

Ah that yes

[small gorge]

I find it a bit annoying ig

[raw sable]

Its required

[raw sable]

You can headbutt the trail twin

[small gorge]

Not if it gets other buffs

[raw sable]

[small gorge]

Eh?

[raw sable]

No it still is

[raw sable]

THAT'S BEEN A THING SINCE PLAYTEST BLAHDJOANSKSPFND

[small gorge]

Wym

[raw sable]

Cause tiger literally has zero ways to score

It already couldn't score very easily for an attacker

And then nuin took it's one last way to score

[small gorge]

Dawg you play bungus just get good

Idk tp into goal feels meh

[raw sable]

If a tiger presses q the frame that happens if you headbutt the trail on the tiger it headbutt the ball out their hands

[raw sable]

No

Just

No

[small gorge]

Holy biased

[raw sable]

You say that cause you're bad at countering them

[raw sable]

I'm just not tho

Tiger is currently F tier

Second worst is B

Like

Tiger is so atrocious ly bad

[small gorge]

Sure man wtv

[raw sable]

It was already second worst before the tiger rewind into goal

And then bungus got a buff so it would've been the worst even if it kept tiger tp in to goal

[small gorge]

What did bungus even get

[raw sable]

3 shrooms

[small gorge]

?

[raw sable]

"I play the game" - aub

[small gorge]

I play the game but I don't play against bungus or tiger

Because no one plays em

[small gorge]

I said stop ragebaiting I'm not in the mood

[raw sable]

You loterally played with me

WHILE I WAS ON BUNGUS

Twin it's not even rage bait atp

[raw sable]

And the tiger thing has been since playtest

[small gorge]

Never heard of it shrug

I knew you could headbutt it during onball didn't know the whole trail

[raw sable]

@faint torrent get in here I'm tired of having this discussion with every single person

[small gorge]

Yeah?

Wym 3 shrooms

It always had 3 shrooms?

[raw sable]

It has three ofb charges

[small gorge]

Didn't it always?

[raw sable]

Omg bro 😭

[raw sable]

NO

[small gorge]

Well not always always

But like

Since a while

Eh

[raw sable]

Yeah but you also haven't been on in a while

[small gorge]

I played literally yesterday

[raw sable]

And that while was before tiger rewind into goal

[small gorge]

Okay I don't care if it's not ragebait stop being an ass either way

[raw sable]

I'm not even trying to be

[small gorge]

Bruh

[raw sable]

I'm genuinely not trying to be

[drifting skiff]

click is fine as it is

[small gorge]

???

[drifting skiff]

click is just fine

it’s completely mid

it’s offball is great but the onball kinda sucks ass

[faint torrent]

I think click is strong but not op stronf

[raw sable]

That is true it's the most mid beetle rn and it's great to have it that way

[small gorge]

How is it mid

[raw sable]

Cause it's not strong

Or weak

[faint torrent]

I disagree with it being mid icl

its good but not great

[raw sable]

It's just at a point it doesn't need beers or buffs

[drifting skiff]

I’d call it top of B and if that’s not mid idk what is

[faint torrent]

everybody needs a beer

[raw sable]

Click doesn't

I do

[drifting skiff]

I feel like click is the middle point that should be balanced to

things should get nerfed to match it rather than it getting buffed

otherwise power creep would be awful

[raw sable]

[faint torrent]

what beetles do you think should be nerfed or buffed?

[raw sable]

Nerf tiger

[faint torrent]

true tiger triple S tier

we should return LB to its state before any of the nerfs too

[drifting skiff]

fung, tiger, rhino deserve buffs

Ngl I can’t remember the beetle list

[raw sable]

Nah did you see I beat nuin one time so Itd quadruple s tier

[drifting skiff]

hold on

[faint torrent]

nuin was the first beetleball player too so that means he's the best player

[raw sable]

Dung Goliath lb rhino ebb bombs fungus click tiger ff weevil cyborg lh potato

[drifting skiff]

ty

[raw sable]

True

I still have it memorised form the BB content drought in PLAYTEST

Ik it's not the right order

Pretty sure it's click tiger fungus but oh well

[drifting skiff]

ebb, Goliath, Bomba, cyborg, lh, lb should get at least some nerfs

[faint torrent]

nerf dung lb lh buff tiger fungus rhino nerf some of bombas and weevils techs rework potato and rhino leave the rest the same imo

[raw sable]

Rhino doesn't need a buff it needs a rework

Nerf the shit out of defense

Buff the shit out of offense

[drifting skiff]

weevil needs to lose Kyle tech

and ff could use a little longer cd on onb

[raw sable]

Goliath needs some changes to the party but yeah

[faint torrent]

nerf tiger* sorry

its too op in level 3 lobbies so it needs to be nerfed

nuin logic

[raw sable]

I can't wait for bee beetle to either be hot ass

Or game defining

[faint torrent]

I'd think it's gonna be like peetle where it changes the flow of the game without being too op or bad

[drifting skiff]

@faint torrent I think these beetles (+weevil and ff) could get reasonably nerfed down to where click is rn

[raw sable]

Maybe maybe depends what it's "support" Is

[drifting skiff]

idk how it would be implemented tho

[raw sable]

It shouldn't be just nerfed to where click is

It should just be closer

[faint torrent]

ebb nerf is unneeded imo

[raw sable]

Xause rn the gaps between beetles are too big

[faint torrent]

actually maybe a defense nerd

its defense is crazy rn

[raw sable]

Dive tech is way too good

[drifting skiff]

I think ebb is hella strong but there haven’t been good enough players to develop it yet

[raw sable]

Limit it in some way and it's fine

[faint torrent]

I honestly think dive tech isn't that busted

[raw sable]

Axo

[faint torrent]

you lose it for nearly a minute if you ever actually use your ofb

[drifting skiff]

same

[raw sable]

It goes THREE BUNGUS SHROOMS OF HEIGHT IN 6 SECONDS

[faint torrent]

theres stronger with much less draw back

[raw sable]

IT'S NOT MEANT TO BE A HEIGHT BEETKE 😭😭

And it's got no cool down on that

[faint torrent]

from what I've seen you already need lots of height for you to be able to do it

[raw sable]

No this is from the ground

You can also currently do this on any beetle

Cause silly nuin code

[faint torrent]

I've played around a lot with ebb idk if I'm just stupid but I can't get really any height unless I already have a lot of height before starting

[raw sable]

Idk twin

[faint torrent]

like near crater flower level height

[raw sable]

Ask actual ebb players I just know that I'm tired of getting caught up to in seconds while using all my shrooms

And they don't have to use an ability

[drifting skiff]

oh you can definitely do it with less

[faint torrent]

maybe but its difficult and inconsistent from personal experience

[raw sable]

Twin @oblique storm tell this man how high you go with the any beetle version of dive tech

[raw sable]

Not from my experience

[drifting skiff]

I think I’ve seen jeet do it from upper card level on gamba but you’d have to ask

[raw sable]

lowkey I know the perfect nerf for dive tech

Just make it so if you're doing dive tech the bar starts going down

[faint torrent]

imo the onb should be nerfed for defense (make it dissappear faster near net or smth) and make the actual ofb better

cuz rn it's not worth it to use the ofb most of the time and thats boring

[faint torrent]

so you can only dive once...?

[raw sable]

No

Like lb bar

It goes down

So you don't lose your full ability

[faint torrent]

upper card level + a headbutt up is about the point I can get equal height as the height I lose personally

[faint torrent]

so you can use your ofb without full charge???

[raw sable]

No like you can use ofb for dive tech but not for going underground

[drifting skiff]

I do think defensive ebb is chudy but this would be forcing ebb to be played agro and not really be useable on d

[raw sable]

So like

If you're at full charge it's regular ability

If you're not it's just dive tech no burrowing

[faint torrent]

kinda ig but base ofb can be used for D as well

[faint torrent]

so you just can't use your ability at all after dive teching???

[drifting skiff]

more so cyborg esq saves

[raw sable]

TWIN IT REGENS

plus dive tech is more than broken enough to make up for it

[faint torrent]

its the slowest regenning ability in the game

[raw sable]

YRAH AND DIVE TECH IS THE FASTEST AND MOST HEIGHT GAINING IN THE GAME

[faint torrent]

you can use it to break losing clenches

[raw sable]

This or nerf the dhit out of dive tech

[faint torrent]

which is really nice

[faint torrent]

neither of those are true from what I've seen

[raw sable]

@storm haven @drowsy cloak @supple birch @wary agate read down from here I want you guys opinions on this

[faint torrent]

its height gaining if you already have a lot of height and also only the fastest if, again, you have a lot of height

[raw sable]

That's really just not true icl

[faint torrent]

dive tech grabbing from that much height is really difficult tho

[raw sable]

It doesn't matter you gain height you go back down with speed you score

[faint torrent]

I've put like 20 ish hours onto ebb between my main acc and my alt in the past couple days, I'm just speaking from personal experience

[drifting skiff]

I feel like it should be a meter and as you use dive tech it just the timer on the actual burrowing shorter

[raw sable]

That's literally what I just said

Or at least what I meant to say

Idk if I worded it correctly

[drifting skiff]

oh I thought you said it shouldn’t be useable if your meter isn’t full at all

[raw sable]

Oh no if I did mb

[drifting skiff]

break losing clenches?

[faint torrent]

idk, ebb could use a slight nerf but "nerfing the shit out of dive tech" isn't it imo

[drifting skiff]

I agree

[faint torrent]

those battles of constant grabs and headbutts right infront of net

[raw sable]

Yeah so do this nerf that ham slot just said