SAM REWORK

[raw orbit]

When you stack sams, they should cover bigger ranges. I think it should be capped at 3 in one stack
1 sam - current range
2 sams - in between the current range and the range of a hydro
3 sams - covers the range a full hydro

The cost can scale more to balance this buff, maybe 1.5m, 3m, then 6m(just more than the cost of a hydro itself)

i mean after the first sam, all the rest cost 3 million, so i guess 3m, 4.5m, then 6m

and since it costs more to stack than to spread out, it still creates situation dependant choices

Since nobody at the start or mid game would afford a total 10.5+ million just for sams, it would balance the late game A LOT

[fathom gull]

Sounds pretty good

They'd have to see it though

[raw orbit]

yeah they need to just see that there are 3 in one stack, but maybe if the levels of sams had different design, like they progressively get bigger, then people would have an easier time seeing

[smoky saffron]

Sams don't cover bigger ranges if you stack them. No?

[fathom gull]

I think it would be a good idea for all buildings to have buffs

For levels

But be more expensive

[fathom gull]

No they don't

[raw orbit]

They dont, thats why im suggesting it

[smoky saffron]

Well instead of stacking them, you could make 3 level upgrade system for each sam

[raw orbit]

that would require more ui and more complexity tho

[smoky saffron]

They have already done it in a beta test for upgradable structures but backed down on it for an unknown reason

[raw orbit]

is it possible to play on that beta

[smoky saffron]

Idk, that was like in v22

[raw orbit]

ok anyways do u think this idea is good

[smoky saffron]

~

[raw orbit]

yay

[fallow citrus]

hmm, idk. would make a 20 stack sam literally unkillable cause you cant spam nukes fast enough.

[raw orbit]

i said its capped at 3 per stack

:D

[fallow citrus]

so cant stack higher or just the range is capped?

[raw orbit]

the game wont let you place more than 3

[fallow citrus]

works for me 👍

[raw orbit]

in one place

Ya

[raw orbit]

bump:3

[raw orbit]

bump

[steady phoenix]

i like this, it can be very frustrating to have a lot of money built up and put down a bunch of SAMs late game but someone can just land a hydrogen bomb just outside the range of it and destroy it anyway

[potent crane]

Exactly what i was thinking.

Atleast make them overwhelm the sam

[raw orbit]

bump:D

[raw orbit]

bump

[raw orbit]

BUMP

[raw orbit]

bump

[delicate kernel]

I think the reason is to avoid adding too much complexity - that's one of the main problems with most suggestions for new building types and stuff

SAM range definitely needs a fix though, this is a decent idea

It's so insanely frustrating right now because MOST players don't know about the trick with H bomb range, so building a lot of SAMs to protect can be effective... until one player from across the map wipes you out with one well placed H bomb.

[raw orbit]

18 upvotes is crazy btw thanks guys

[delicate kernel]

The construction time to build SAMs is also crazy too long, needs to be reduced. It's way too easy for a 750k a bomb to destroy the 1.5 or 3m sam while its still being built. When an opponent starts launching a bombs before you've got your first sam there is no way to counter that.

[raw orbit]

I think i agree, I think a good tactic would be to a buld a sam when you see an enemy is nuking you so theres a way to actually defend yourself

[raw orbit]

bump

[terse blaze]

highly vouching this, maybe not this exact way but somehow SARM Launcher has to be buffed because it is simply too ineffective against H bomb, especially with the recent updates. It is such a massive investment and so easy to destroy now..

[delicate kernel]

Sending n+1 atom bombs feels like a more fair way to defeat SAMs than the hydro range trick. Just need to add a toggle to send a volley so autoclicker spam isn't required.
Reduce construction time
Keep price the same while testing aforementioned changes

[raw orbit]

yes chat fr

[terse blaze]

Although construction time is quite long, I feel like if they add more range (so that H bomb stays out of range) it would be maybe too much and would make it a little too OP with shorter construction time

But I strongly agree with you for the N+1 bomb.

[raw orbit]

so making singular sams should take less time to build but if you stack, it becomes longer every time, that probably balances the op

[delicate kernel]

increasing time to stack is a good idea

What I want to be prevented is how if you don't have a SAM up before someone starts throwing nukes, you can't build a single one, even trying just wastes money, they can easily just keep you pinned down at that point.

[raw orbit]

level 1 sams should take the same amount of time as a silo or city

[raw orbit]

13.5m to get a level 3 sam
11.25m to spent on 4 silos, 3 atom bombs, and 1 hydro to penetrate the defense of the level 3 sam

[magic spade]

As far as I knew the structure upgrades were always just putting more of a structure on top and are the same as the current stacking systyem, unless I missed a beta.

[raw orbit]

[fleet scarab]

Nah strucutre upgrades genuinely raise the level of a single structure, and then change some properties, but the mechanics then may convert the levels into a number of buildings. For example, when calculating chance for a boat spawning, port levels are counted as individual buildings

[magic spade]

I would be interested in seeing more documentaton about that

[fleet scarab]

You can check the code yourself, for example here
https://github.com/openfrontio/OpenFrontIO/blob/0def339ad99acc2c4f9dd1c482142e145d29c986/src/core/execution/PortExecution.ts#L86

[raw orbit]

[fallow citrus]

https://github.com/openfrontio/OpenFrontIO/pull/2351

[raw orbit]

38 votes is crazy btw

[raw orbit]

jhi

[steep basalt]

This might be the best fix I’ve seen put forth yet

[raw orbit]

yaya thnx

[green star]

How desperate are you guys for living with one Sam location haha

[raw orbit]

https://main.openfront.dev/
this idea got added to the game for test u can check here

[quasi gale]

On small islands, you have no choice.

Sometimes you get wiped out on the mainland but have pretty good infrastructure on small islands. Right now, a single hydro can kill you. If there was a way to extend the range of the SAMs, that would give you a chance to defend yourself.

An alternative defence would be missile defence warships - naval SAMs. I might actually prefer that. Again, it can be overwhelmed by too many incoming missiles, or destroyed by a warship attack, but it would give you a way to extend the range of your air defence network beyond hydro blast radius so that islands can be protected.

[raw orbit]

extending the range of sams is in the experimental update, the link is above

[quasi gale]

Yeah, and while I like the idea, I think I like the idea of naval SAMs even better. I'm not sure we need both. But having one is an improvement.

[raw orbit]

they're kinda OP and if sams are implimented into warships, i think all this needs to be done beforehand: https://discord.com/channels/1284581928254701718/1436186330894831811

[fast stump]

SAMS are already so powerful, though. If someone has to spend 5mil to destroy your SAMs, I think it's fair game.

[steady phoenix]

with the current experimental build you need to stack at least 5 SAMS to outrange an H bomb, which is at least 13.5M and can still be overwhelmed by 6 atom bombs costing 4.5M, plus that's a massive investment to protect what is still not a huge area

[fast stump]

Yeah but you don't want SAMs to be overpowered either. A simple 5 mil bomb is fair to clear any stacked SAMs.
Besides you're not just protecting a small area around the SAM, you're also protecting your land behind the SAM. So you need to place them near your borders or in locations where the bombs are likely coming from.
I think the price of SAMs are fair as well because they can be very annoying to deal with and they deter a lot of bombs already. Remember it's not just about protection, it's also about making the enemy waste their gold as well. So it's both for protection, plus you drain your enemy's gold with it., so I think 1.5mil for one SAM is completely fair as well. It already takes 700k * 2 = 1.4mil to take out one SAM site. Really the SAMs should not be boosted at all, they're perfect the way they are currently with all the ways we have in the game to deal with them.

[raw orbit]

dont forget that its not 4.5 million for atom bombs, its 6 million for silos, then 6 atom bombs, so 10.5m+

[fleet scarab]

Well silos are reusable but yea

[quasi gale]

Don't forget that we're not always defending large plots of land. Sometimes we get kicked off the mainland but survive on an island. This is part of the purpose of extending SAM range and/or adding SAM warships - as far as I'm concerned, the main purpose.

Because right now - and this will continue to be the case if H-bombs outrange SAMs - a single 5-mil H-bomb can obliterate any infrastructure on an island and there's nothing you can do about it.

Allowing SAMs - if stacked up - to out-range H-bombs or adding SAM warships give you a way to defend against that. Not in a way that's impossible to attack - you can still be overwhelmed with a flood of normal atom bombs or a bunch of warships, or enemy warships farther out can intercept all your trade ships and starve your economy - but in a way that makes you a more difficult target that still requires serious investment.

I don't care as much about big land areas. Yeah, someone can do the creeping H-bomb barrage across your land, but for that to push deep inland is very expensive and I feel like if they can pull it off they kinda earned it, and the way to defend against that is for you to counter-nuke them - which you can probably do if you have enough money to build a lot of SAMs.

So I think big land areas are actually OK right now. The problem I see is small islands that currently have absolutely no defence against someone who knows how to aim an H-bomb.

That's why I would actually prefer a naval SAM ship. It should be weak or even defenceless against other ships and should not raid trade ships, but it should intercept incoming nukes just like land-based SAMs. Put a few of those in the water around your island - at a fairly high cost to do more than one or two - and your island becomes hard to nuke.

[raw orbit]

theres a lot to consider about warships though. how they move randomly makes it inconsistent if you want to defend an island. my idea i proposed was to make warships static by setting the movement radius to 0, or upping the radius to 10 so warships have a bigger range of movement. but then, warships would just act like a moving sam on the water, which is probably too op and unpredictable. and if you want a completely different type of ship just for sams? i mean personally i believe evan doesn't want to add more "complex" stuff like that into the game, but if there was some kind of destroyer ship that cost 10 million, had missiles and sams, and you could deploy boats from it, it might be fun

[quasi gale]

I would want a new warship for SAMs that only does missile defence. That's simple and straightforward. I agree that limiting the random movement - or giving the option to do so - would be good for a missile defence warship. But some randomness makes it slightly harder to reliably H-bomb a moving target, making a naval attack the best way to beat them.

[raw orbit]

I had the idea that naval sam ships would have a 30 second cooldown so they can only use sams in moderation, so it would be costly but strategic in some places

[quasi gale]

That's too long. Slower than land-based might be OK, but not that long.

[raw orbit]

then its too OP

the sams are already buffed (soon coming)

[sand vault]

What if nukes were given health, so that ship sams could do less damage than land sams. say that a ship sam does 1/3rd damage of a land sam, with an equal cooldown, so that ships need to be in stacks of 3 to intercept

or maybe nukes have different health than hydros, so a nuke can be stopped by 2 ship sams but a hydro needs 3

[potent crane]

What buff?

[raw orbit]

similar to this current suggestion you're on

stacking them increases the range

[potent crane]

Cus rn hydros are op and sams are minimally useful

[potent crane]

Perfect. Will it remove the hydro clipping strategy?

[raw orbit]

yeah, we're playing that gamemode rn if you want to join the next match

[raw orbit]

theres also stuff like this

[potent crane]

What do you mean that game mode?

[potent crane]

So it will show the outline?

[raw orbit]

everything

[potent crane]

Oh. Thats a public feature? And it is just the next update ahead?

[raw orbit]

pretty much

@potent crane wanna play?

[potent crane]

Yeah ill hope on for a few

[fleet scarab]

Be careful what you spread lol

[silver salmon]

Locking due to being in the next release / in the dev version already

[raw orbit]

Bump

who else is waiting for this to be implimented