nutty log analysis | Ravenholdt | Page 1

rose pike Jun 9, 2022, 9:18 AM

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moment

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oh, its a m+ log, interesting

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towards your covenant choice, i think theodar would be better

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tripple potency with LS/dd/pe

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your gear is a mess

signal cargo Jun 9, 2022, 9:20 AM

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Okay cool I just swapped to venthyr and I think I just unlocked him

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Yeah I just picked the game back up last week

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Only pieces I have for keeps are head chest shoulders lol

rose pike Jun 9, 2022, 9:21 AM

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you rly need the 4p to compete in m+

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also ideally you would run normal/heroic of the raid at least to get this trinket

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https://www.wowhead.com/item=188265/cache-of-acquired-treasures?bonus=4800:4786:1524&ilvl=278

Wowhead

Cache of Acquired Treasures

This epic trinket of item level 226 goes in the "Trinket" slot. It is looted from Artificer Xy'mox. In the Trinkets category. Added in World of Warcraft: Shadowlands.

signal cargo Jun 9, 2022, 9:23 AM

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And that’s the 9.2 raid?

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Is it one of the early bosses?

rose pike Jun 9, 2022, 9:24 AM

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yes

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it is one of the earlier bosses, so should be easy doable

signal cargo Jun 9, 2022, 9:24 AM

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Okay I’ll run normal and heroic to try to get it

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Tbh I’ve been super unlucky with gearing I’ve done like 60 dungeons and gotten basically no pieces

rose pike Jun 9, 2022, 9:25 AM

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towards gameplay, you did tart with strike there, but did not end using snd
unsure what the target count was tho

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ideally you would have strike-(storm)-flag-finish-symbols+dance-tornado

signal cargo Jun 9, 2022, 9:26 AM

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Okay on big trash pulls I just drop flag on highest priority target right?

rose pike Jun 9, 2022, 9:27 AM

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yes

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you in general should apply slice and dice

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also i am rly not sure if dance was a good choice to use here

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seeing how much time you waste when you use it

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the flag cast is entirely wrong

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the basic concept of flag is fairly simple

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flag-finish-tornado-cooldowns

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you did use flag without high cp, so you did need to use storm after

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then you had no symbols because you used it earlier

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and didn't use tornado but used tornado later

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it is probably that you did not have tornado up from your first use

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you also need to make sure to use all 8 secs from dance, e.g. here you only used 7

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this sequence has the same issue as mentioned above

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flag-finish-cooldowns

signal cargo Jun 9, 2022, 9:32 AM

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So don’t ever cast flag during sd

rose pike Jun 9, 2022, 9:32 AM

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to explain it, flagallation gets stacks from finishing moves given you consume cp

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so you want to start with a finisher

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also using flag during dance means you get less benefits from dance

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because you basically trade away globals during it

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this is also why you would never use a finisher at the start of shadow dance
so this is also incorrect

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it is fine to use a finisher in aoe, but in situations you would use strike ... you shouldn't

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you also again lose casts in this dance here

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this is not a big issue but still worth mentioning

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symbols is what you align dance too not vice versa

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so symbols-dance

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if you use dance before symbols and do casts during that, you potentially trade off shadow strikes you would use during symbols

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and if we extend the shown

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thats is exactly what is happening

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not much to say here, basic missunderstanding of how to use flag and cooldowns

signal cargo Jun 9, 2022, 9:37 AM

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So never hold a dance for symbols but always hold symbols for dance

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Right?

rose pike Jun 9, 2022, 9:38 AM

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holy, no

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this is also a quite noticable mistake

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to explain it

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the very basic of the spec is cooldown stacking

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and given the short cooldown of symbols, you will align cooldowns to it

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symbols is 10 secs, so you will always align 1 dance charge to it

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ofc, you will generate a lot more dance charges, so how to use them?

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well that depends on the covenant, but for venthyr you usually align it with flag or use it when about to cap on dance charges

signal cargo Jun 9, 2022, 9:42 AM

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So from some stuff I read it said aim to pair it with dance when you’re around 40-69 energy to cap on energy

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Is that just flat wrong cus flag is higher value?

rose pike Jun 9, 2022, 9:42 AM

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this means on pure st, you basically would use 2 dance charges with flagallation, and only use charges outside of that if your charges run high or if you are about to have downtime

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flag itself has a interesting position

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because you usually use symbols on cd

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but if flag is about to come up you can delay symbols

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up to a maximum of 10 sec

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for m+. as this is what you do in the log, you will also use dance more agressively

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because you generate a lot more charges in aoe

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the important thing is to know how to play flag, and i explained it above

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to basically flag-finish-(tornado)-cooldowns

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also side note as i see you using tornado rarely

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tornado is not a aoe exclusive cooldown

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so it can be used on single target too

frozen sapphire Jun 9, 2022, 9:45 AM

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ohh didnt knew that

signal cargo Jun 9, 2022, 9:46 AM

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Which situations should I be using it in single target?

rose pike Jun 9, 2022, 9:46 AM

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always

frozen sapphire Jun 9, 2022, 9:46 AM

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so tornado pretty much on cd

rose pike Jun 9, 2022, 9:46 AM

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well, you still need to use common sense

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if you go into a pull after the boss and wouldn't have it, maybe don't use it

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but this is for cooldowns in general

signal cargo Jun 9, 2022, 9:47 AM

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Ye of course

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The other thing you mentioned is my snd uptime is bad

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Shoul I be using it before my first finisher on most pulls and just refreshing constantly?

rose pike Jun 9, 2022, 9:48 AM

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if you have a high target pack, you don't need to use it

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but packs will naturally shrink

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so a 10 target pack will start out as 10

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but then might be 3, 2 or even single target for a bit

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it makes sense to slice and dice in that situation as it gets a lot more valuable

signal cargo Jun 9, 2022, 9:50 AM

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Okay

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So overall I need to work on my flag usage, symbols timing, snd upkeep and tornado usage

rose pike Jun 9, 2022, 9:51 AM

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you need to work on a lot of things, and that is completely normal

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the best thing is to try to understand why you use something, as it makes it very easy to get to the conclusion what to do

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a lot of people just try to learn sequences, this is why they come with questions like:
"what is the aoe opener"
"what is the opener in a pack when i don't have X/Y"
....

frozen sapphire Jun 9, 2022, 9:52 AM

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i find it hard since apm is high to make right decisions

rose pike Jun 9, 2022, 9:53 AM

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i mean, learning that is a valid approach, and you could in theory ask these questions long enough to have a sequence ready for each situation

signal cargo Jun 9, 2022, 9:53 AM

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That’s way more work than understanding why an ability is used tbh

rose pike Jun 9, 2022, 9:53 AM

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but it seems inefficient for me

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i know somone who played in the mdi that did learn it this way

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so its not something that is exclusive to beginners

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but as you also concluded, it does not make a lot of sense

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what i suggest you would be to go one step at the time and don't try to apply everything at once

signal cargo Jun 9, 2022, 9:56 AM

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Right, I’m gonna focus on being more efficient with flag tomorrow

rose pike Jun 9, 2022, 9:56 AM

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one of the things every melee dps can improve, is to try to get high uptime on targets

signal cargo Jun 9, 2022, 9:56 AM

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I just feel like there’s so much I don’t know so all the information is kind of opening doors a bit better

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Uptime is a huge issue for me

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Because I’m not completely familiar with boss mechanics when to blow cds and when to wait etc

rose pike Jun 9, 2022, 9:57 AM

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you have so many tools (sprint, shadow step, strike from stealth or vanish)
don't hessitate to use them to your advantage

signal cargo Jun 9, 2022, 9:57 AM

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Sometimes I’m hitting 14k on a boss and ending with 6-7

rose pike Jun 9, 2022, 9:58 AM

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thats normal, you will fall off a bit

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esp. with venthyr, your damage is mostly in flag windows

signal cargo Jun 9, 2022, 9:58 AM

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Okay I see

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Should I be pairing sb with flag as well?

rose pike Jun 9, 2022, 9:59 AM

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you can line it up with symbols yes

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also in terms of damage, keep in mind that your damage will increase quite a bit once you have 4p

signal cargo Jun 9, 2022, 10:00 AM

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It feels like when Sb and flag are on cooldown I’m just resetting rupture and snd till they’re back up and I’m not sure if it’s because I don’t have good gear or my 4p

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So I should just run whatever keys give me pieces to upgrade and the raid until I get that trinket and my 4p

rose pike Jun 9, 2022, 10:01 AM

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you can throw m+ pieces into the catalyst and upgrade them with valor

signal cargo Jun 9, 2022, 10:01 AM

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Ye that was the plan

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But I have been insanely unlucky lmao

rose pike Jun 9, 2022, 10:02 AM

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haha, loot is sadly only a random system

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but you got a high item level dagger from your weekly chest, so i wouldn't say you got unlucky

signal cargo Jun 9, 2022, 10:03 AM

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Yeah the dagger is super nice I just haven’t gotten any best in slot stuff and no legs/gloves for 4p

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But I’m not sweating it it’ll come eventually

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At least I can gain valor no matter what

rose pike Jun 9, 2022, 10:04 AM

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it is the last patch of the game

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and there is even a new season later in the patch

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(that will change m+ up quite a bit and means the item farm resets)

signal cargo Jun 9, 2022, 10:05 AM

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Ahhh I see

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Well I’m gonna keep grinding try to improve, I appreciate the help a lot. Rouge might not have been the smartest class to start with from scratch lmao

rose pike Jun 9, 2022, 10:07 AM

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subtelty is in its easiest iteration in a while, so could be worse 😛

signal cargo Jun 9, 2022, 10:07 AM

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Yeah my first time ever playing wow was at the very beginning of shadowlands

rose pike Jun 9, 2022, 10:07 AM

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but i agree, there is quite a lot of small things to learn/understand

signal cargo Jun 9, 2022, 10:08 AM

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It feels really weird that I do so well on aoe pulls but poorly on single target right now

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Lol

rose pike Jun 9, 2022, 10:08 AM

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other classes would often be easier because you have very clear cooldowns you most of the time just fire and forget

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it makes absolute sense that you peform well in aoe

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the aoe rotation is fairly simple, and you can't do much wrong

signal cargo Jun 9, 2022, 10:09 AM

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Yeah it’s 2 buttons lmao

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I just know sub is supposed to be great single target

rose pike Jun 9, 2022, 10:09 AM

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it isn't entirely true, as cooldown use is still important

signal cargo Jun 9, 2022, 10:09 AM

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And was bad aoe before because black powder was capped at 5 or something

rose pike Jun 9, 2022, 10:09 AM

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subtlety is not great in st

signal cargo Jun 9, 2022, 10:10 AM

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Oh I thought it was supposed to be

rose pike Jun 9, 2022, 10:10 AM

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it is about the same as sin/outlaw in raid because you can play kyrian

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but venthyr is behind by quite a bit, it is one of the weaker single target classes

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what sub is good is funnel and sustained aoe

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venthyr also works very well with the seasonal affix

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the trinket i linked earlier

signal cargo Jun 9, 2022, 10:11 AM

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Can you elaborate on why it’s good with the affix?

rose pike Jun 9, 2022, 10:11 AM

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the cdr from the relics works rly well with flag

signal cargo Jun 9, 2022, 10:11 AM

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Okay I see I see

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I played outlaw a bit but I’ve never tried sin what would you say is the most fun spec?

rose pike Jun 9, 2022, 10:13 AM

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i am biased, i do most of my work on simc on subtlety since legion

signal cargo Jun 9, 2022, 10:13 AM

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Simc?

rose pike Jun 9, 2022, 10:14 AM

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simulationcraft, i do most of the apl work for subtlety

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so basically define how the robot plays the spec if you run a simulation on raidbots f.ex.

signal cargo Jun 9, 2022, 10:14 AM

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Ohhhh okay got it

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So you’re a sub rouge master at this point lmao

rose pike Jun 9, 2022, 10:15 AM

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i am biased in that i like the spec more than the other 2.
But the current iteration is not my favorite

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i don't think either of the other ones is bad or not fun

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(well i think assassination is not my cup of tea most of the time due to the slow-ish rotation on single target)

signal cargo Jun 9, 2022, 10:16 AM

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I see I see

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Is there any way for me to save this chat for future reference?

rose pike Jun 9, 2022, 10:17 AM

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outlaw seems a lot of fun in m+ and people have a incentive to play it after the buff

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we don't delete threads, so you can at any time go into it again

signal cargo Jun 9, 2022, 10:18 AM

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Oh awesome

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Outlaw was fun is s1 but felt way less punishing than sub so I swapped back from it

rose pike Jun 9, 2022, 10:18 AM

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it gets achived after iirc 3 days default, but you can just write in the achived thread to wake it up again

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outlaw seems fairly nice if you don't play kyrian with dust

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kyrian with dust seems nearly too fast paced

signal cargo Jun 9, 2022, 10:19 AM

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Do you play anything other than rouge ever?

rose pike Jun 9, 2022, 10:20 AM

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i did try out other classes, but i haven't found anything that i enjoy as much

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ranged dps is a lot more chill, but also becomes boring for me usually

signal cargo Jun 9, 2022, 10:21 AM

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That’s what I assumed would happen if I played them

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I come from league so I’m used to pressing a lot more buttons lol

rose pike Jun 9, 2022, 10:21 AM

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i haven't played DH in SL, but when i played it it played like a simplified rogue spec

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feral is basically a rogue ^^

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even tho with a lot more snapshotting shananigans, and iirc in sl quite slow pacing if you don't play with balance affinity

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haven't played sv hunter or ww monk, but it seems like people like it

signal cargo Jun 9, 2022, 10:23 AM

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Yeah a friend of mine played feral for a bit I’ve heard the classes are relatively similar

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ww seems like a 2 button class from first glance I can’t really see myself playing it really

frozen sapphire Jun 9, 2022, 10:24 AM

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i mained feral for long long time

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since MoP

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rogue is very similar but with alot more options

signal cargo Jun 9, 2022, 10:26 AM

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Got you

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Well thanks for the help I really appreciate it

rose pike Jun 9, 2022, 10:27 AM

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well, good luck in your keys, and if you got questions just come back and ask

#nutty log analysis