#she eco on my dome till I deplete my key
raw shoal
that title 🤣
worn forge
okay so
some good here
double rupture early for scent, getting mark up
you keep garroting, one extra rupture is fine
generally after the first 5ish ruptures you lose a lot of value on ruptures
stealth garrotes hit like a truck though, so hitting everything with that is huge
what I kinda don't get it the double crimson tempest
crimson tempest is just a dot at the end of the day, so doubling up on it is a bit of a waste
after this initial pull though, things.... kinda fall apart a little
we just spread a bunch of bleeds, so we're in aoe
but there's no fan of knives?
no second shiv? no deathmark?
kinda strange there
this is also just the double up on crimson tempest again, bit strange
and then 3 ambush in a row to end the pack is kinda diabolical, that's so many cp
raw shoal
this is gold
worn forge
raw shoal
yeah i find myself holding deathmark too much
worn forge
like just look at this first pull
it's with lust and everything
but you're generating most of your cp with mutilate/ambush
the overcap is like, kind of okay
you cast a fan of knives here
when you were already at 6
but you didn't have a darkest night at this point
but like okay sure whatever
that brings me to point 2
this is your darkest night on pull 2
you notice how those blocks in the middle there are fatter than your mom?
shouldn't be like that
darkest night is the single most important thing you could ever consume
raw shoal
this is your darkest night on pull 2
what does that mean?
worn forge
without it you do not have a hero talent, and you are sad and pathetic
raw shoal
does that mean how long DN was up?
worn forge
so like
yah
this one for example
you consumed your final mark stack at 1:49
and then you had the buff
until 2:01
I can overlay the finishers you used in that time
so that first salmon colored line is a crimson tempest
that's what consumed
then you cast a rupture, AND ANOTHER crimson tempest
and then finally consumed with an envenom after that
but that envenom consuming darkest night
is a higher priority than both of those
easily
so that's not ideal
in general, you have like the right ideas sometimes but it feels like you're not entirely comfortable yet so you get these what I call "blackout moments"
where like what you got in your brain
and what your fingers do
simply don't match up
like looking through a couple more pulls, you got all the blocks
5 ruptures for scent
spread garrote on everything
keep CT up
but how that manifests is a bit sloppy
raw shoal
so,
- keep garroting is fine,
- dont rupture too much (rule of thumb, 5 ruptured targets is good enough)
- DONT double crimson tempest (kinda have it on my muscle memory, need to get rid of that bad habit)
- CONSUME DARKEST NIGHT ASAP (i know you emphasize this a lot on your video)
do you mean 5 ruptured targetts or 5 rupture casts?
worn forge
- yes garrote on everything
- rupturing 5 targets is indeed good enough, you can toss out a couple if there's like tiny shitters that will die soon, or on a giga pull or something just to make sure you got your scent stacks for the entirety of the pull
- yep yep
- yep
5 targets
maybe something that will help
lemme buss out this paint
raw shoal
alrighty
worn forge
so imagine you got this
the higher on the graph, the more value, the further right, the more targets right
so lets start plotting stuff
rupture for example
raw shoal
got it
worn forge
what do you get from 1 target rupture?
energy, caustic spatter
it enables everything right
raw shoal
YEAH!
worn forge
once you get to 3, you're kinda capping out on energy, you spent your 3 charges of bone spikes
so you lose some more value
then at 5, you cap out on scent of blood
so after that, the only thing you get out of it is like, extra energy (which you're probably overcapping in aoe)
and just the raw damage itself
which to be be fair, isn't nothing, but it's not great
raw shoal
isn't it 10 targets for scent of blood cap?
worn forge
okay, so now we have that
raw shoal
yes yes
worn forge
lets put another finisher up ther
like uh
CT
so CT right
on 1 target? kinda okay, just some damage
raw shoal
with CT i think im.... i thiink it's wrong decision making when to cast it because... for example, we pull this pack of 7-9 mobs.. then i already cast CT on them... then another 3-6 mobs stack on top of that, so im thinking, oh i should cast CT again, to make sure everyone's CT'd!
worn forge
on 2 target this shit kicks in
so it goes from 0% to 40%
and then 60, 80, 100%
and once you get 5 it just kinda ramps up from there
(little known thing but CT actually doesn't DR until 8 target, welcome to rogue we're buggy as hell)
anyway
big AoE? CT cranks hard
okay, so then two more finishers you could possibly cast to add to our graph
this is envenom
1 target? kinda poopy whatever filler damage
2 target? okay now you're cleaving with spatter
3? more spatter
and it just keeps going
more and more and more spatter
and now putting the darkest night envenom on here is actually quite easy
cause it's just an envenom
that's juiced to shit
during shiv, darkest night is +96%
cause 60 * 1.6 from the tier
and it's guaranteed to crit
which is just double damage
so if a regular envenom is 100 damage
a darkest night envenom baseline is already doing 392
and that's not taking into consideration that you're getting extra value from getting your mark back and all that extra nonsense
but it's like nearly 4x the damage
so we can just take that green line and 4x it
raw shoal
this is your darkest night on pull 2
thats why this is hurting me a lot
worn forge
(this is where I mention the graph is definitely not drawn to scale btw)
but darkest night is like this
kinda
ish
there's some caveats
raw shoal
is it a good idea to just target the fattest mob in the pack bec i think thats why im missing out on my deathmark, like i dont know who to cast it to, outside of elites/bosses
worn forge
technically it's higher prio that rupture in single target (but I drew rupture to high)
but then in AoE right, you want to get the rupture up for spatter
without spatter, that darkest night is just wasted
but after you have that initial rupture for spatter
then it's just the most giga shit imagineable
okay now we can do the same thing for generators
this is much easier
this is mutilate and ambush
you hit 1 target
you get your combo points
gg
this is your not-in-stealth garrotes
having 1-2 out for energy is great
trying to juggle the third is aids cause you gotta be casting that shit on cd and all sorts of garbage
just a headache
now from stealth though 
worn forge
them shits like up here
and then you got fan of knives whatever
more targets more piss
raw shoal
coz of this
worn forge
but you'd need like fucking 45 targets or something for fok to catch up to a cleaved garrote
for reference, your AVERAGE garrote cast across this entire dungeon
was 4.3mil
your average mutilate was 1/10th that
your average fok is 1/7th that
so like
those fuckers crank harder than me at 2am scrolling through twitter
you got 12 seconds of carnage/improved garrote
so you should be hitting everything with those imp gars
so putting all that together then
lets look at an opener again
this for example
this is like a 7 target pull
first gar and rup hit 3 cause they're cleaved
big chillin
that CT hits 7
big chillin
but like
that rupture refunds you a bunch of cp from bone spike
so you overcapped
you're not capped on scent, so that should be the second rupture
then instead of the fok, we ain't got garrotes on everything
so it's garrote time
so what this should've been
was this
(graphic design is my passion)
and like by doing that
you can see we get the mark, we garrote everything
we get our 5 ruptures
nice
then we get the CT up
that's finisher #3
so now we get darkest night
we get the caustic up with the mutilate
fan of knives (which will consume clear the witnesses)
that gets us to max cp, we do our giga envenom for darkest night
and then we're just fok->envenom
refreshing CT when needed
make sense?
raw shoal
holy shit
worn forge
now with that out of the way
raw shoal
this is a wealth of information i would'nt have gotten anywhere else
raw shoal
🤣
worn forge
get yourself a crit power or something
raw shoal
ok ok!
raw shoal
so thats the thing busting me out of stealth!
worn forge
- it doesn't aoe and it sucks
- it knocks you out of stealth randomly, which sucks
so don't do any of that nonsense
worn forge
aight, next order of business
I already kinda said that you weren't deathmarking for shit
which you're aware of
but lemme show you JUST how bad
raw shoal
like idk who to deathmark and when, if its just trash mobs
worn forge
cause this shit makes me nauseous
raw shoal
like, do i deathmark this? or save it for an upcoming elite/boss
raw shoal
T_T
worn forge
in a 26 minute key
my brother in christ
you see those blue bars?
that's lust
you were fighting for your life
to keep up with lust casts in this dungeon
are you insane
just hit something my guy
you got a mark on something?
that's your deathmark now
worn forge
you're envenoming a bitch? don't do that, roofies ain't cool
raw shoal
!!!!
worn forge
but if you were to be envenoming a bitch
just toss it out
the good thing about our current build
is that deathmark interactions in aoe are actually sorta non-existant
normally we have to babysit our kingsbane and line it up with deathmark and do donuts on it to make sure it grows up big and strong
but no kingsbane, no problem
can just throw that out
basically just the biggest dude you can, toss it out and deathmark will suck him off
big prio damage button
so in general, deathmark in aoe? whatever, but cool button to hit
the far bigger problem
which is the thing most people fail to understand
is that deathmark is not your main cooldown
raw shoal
shiv right
worn forge
it has the big ol 2min cooldown and it's in the middle of your spec tree
but damn right, shiv is the main star
and uh
you kinda? cast that
raw shoal
yeah i think i did... 😞
worn forge
you know what arterial precision does yeh?
worn forge
and buffs bleed damage as well as nature damage
worn forge
so imagine you're in the club
raw shoal
almost
worn forge
you got eight
big beautiful women
all around you
and you just wanna bust, I mean shiv
all around you
that's this
raw shoal
so no need to hold it for darkest night!
worn forge
you got like 5 latina baddies, two asians, and then like that one insane mixed race one in the middle
the mixed race one in the middle
that's your deathmark target
the rest just get cleaved
so explain to me
why in gods name
you just hit your shiv
and then up and leave
you got two of those fuckers
aight so you shot your shot
you missed a lil
round two here we go
raw shoal
refraction window T_T cant bust shiv quick enuf
worn forge
holy hell he's surrounded like a swat raid on jeffrey dahmer
lets see him close this out
aaaaaaaaaaand
he just shivs and leaves again
worse than that
you proceed to not shiv for another 2 min
then you hit it silly style, double shiv back to back
(you're not really hitting anything but I like the hustle to double shiv your deathmark, good work)
BUT THEN ITS ANOTHER TWO MINUTES
BRO HAS A GRAND CANYON BETWEEN SHIV CASTS
raw shoal
🤮
worn forge
on top of that there's some shit in here I just cannot explain
idk what to say aside from like
"don't be a pussy"
like what in gods name is this
raw shoal
🤣
raw shoal
they told me to do that 🤣
worn forge
casting fok?
but it's 15 seconds
of just sitting there dick in hand
but no worries, we can check the tape
raw shoal
yeah that Blind was something out of my muscle memory yet
and its my first time to cast it
raw shoal
yes hahaha
📣 🎙️
raw shoal
🤣
worn forge
bro the guy ain't even moving
raw shoal
what to do? they told me to do that on the adds that spawn coz they said it musnt get to the boss or we'll be wiped 🤣
worn forge
yeah sure
but we got tools for that
remember this?
that snapshots
you can just hit those adds + the boss
bang
4 stacks
giga value
you're probably out of energy all the time on single target right?
raw shoal
so just keep the boss as my main target, and just cleave all those adds
raw shoal
so shouldve had vanish here
worn forge
I mean sure maybe
I ran a 13 eco dome earlier
and like
the evoker solos one of the packs
and then we go on the other one
but if no one has cds
then my vanish solos the pack
but you don't NEED vanish
will you be soloing the adds? nah
but you can at least get your crimson tempest snapshot
you can get some energy back from a rupture + scent stacks
gives you some bone spike combo points
if they're close enough to the boss, caustic spatter will hit
you're not particularly strong in the burst aoe department
but like, you got stuff to do
hit anything
raw shoal
not dick around for 15seconds!
worn forge
this you're just watching them walk in
so, in summary:
- craft a dagger, MAKE SURE ITS NOT AN INT DAGGER, you want the one that says stabber
- once you get anything worth a shit, should get some enchants cause this column is drier than your dick (impossible challenge)
- get some trinkets worth a dam (having like lily or signet or something that gives stats on-use is basically a hard requirement). For most every spec in the game, having something to giga juice your cooldowns is massive, think about having a button that just says "you deal +25% damage now" after you cleaved all your bleeds and you're pressing your aoe shiv
rotation wise:
- press cooldowns. I don't really care what at this point, you'll get better at the when and what as you do the keys and push higher levels and things don't instantly explode, but for starters if your cooldowns are available, they shouldn't be. A bad cooldown that gets like 30% value is better than a cooldown you just straight up never cast
- don't fumble around on your priorities. Stealth garrotes > maintaining caustic spatter > fan of knives to generate in aoe > mut/ambush on low target counts. For your finishers, Rupture to get spatter/scent up > darkest night > crimson tempest (maintain, don't spam) > spreading a couple extra stealth ruptures just to make sure you got your energy/scent stacks > envenom spam for caustic
- don't just stand there, do something
now the GOOD news
is that you kinda have all those blocks together
you're just kinda
a 3 year old trying to put the round block in the square hole
gotta get your blocks in the right hole
not that you would know anything about that
and then this is your combo point waste
raw shoal
oh damn?!
worn forge
generally any row that isn't seal fate/shiv
raw shoal
i didnt realized im wasting so much!
worn forge
should say 0
seal fate waste is unavoidable
cause that's just rng combo points
but like 73 mutilate overcaps? 38 ambush?
you sometimes get a bit of that when you need to mutilate on 6 to get that last combo point for darkest night
that's also unavoidable
but 111 combo points
is uh
a lot
same with 90 combo points just from garrote/shrouded suffocation
that's 1cp on garrote, 2cp on shrouded
so that would indicate you're just hitting garrote when you're already at 7
and then the big one
you generated a raw 107 combo points with fan of knives, a 1 combo point generator
raw shoal
oh my God i didnt realize this
worn forge
and you wasted
nearly 15% of the combo points
so 1 in every 8ish fan of knives
the combo point just went into the ether
the bigger issue though
is how the hell are you generating 107 combo points with fan of knives
when your ambush/mutilate is generating over 1000
raw shoal
📝
worn forge
you can refresh yourself here
I got this set up
and it'll actually update
when you wanna use fok
so
more foks pls
like 85% of the dungeon is aoe
so 85% of your casts should be fok
(that's not how math works at all)
but I should definitely see more than this
raw shoal
yeah i should remove bad habit of keeping hitting my mutilate button
worn forge
that's like 400 mutilate/ambush casts
vs 78 foks
also 22 shivs in a 26 min dungeon
(30s cd btw)
anyway, that's probably a good place to start
go forth my son
raw shoal
i think all of these are worth more than any coaching session i could have ever gotten
worn forge
m+ parses in general just kinda a crapshoot
m+ is way too variable
so like yeah grey is "bad"
but also I wouldn't stress too much
most people don't even log their keys tbh
so who knows what you're getting compared against
raw shoal
but being concerned about it definitely led me to learning all of these things
worn forge
unrelated but I hit wordle in 3 and built a minecraft desert temple
kinda sick
the resemblance is uncanny
raw shoal
Got that in 4 with Audio as my starting word (always, 4 vowels OP)
Anyway,
Thank you so much for this.
There's a wealth of information to be gotten here, and I hope I can start fixing these mistakes, even slowly, so that one day, when I do learn and start parsing higher, I could bring justice to this review.
rose herald
I read along and also wanna thank you for the breakdown - there is just one thing that im kinda unsure about and it might be something corvo attano also wonders:
When you pull a new pack and already have DN up, whats the go to sequence to open on that pack? Assuming DN is up long enought so it doesn't run out anytime soon and you don't need to ambush to not risk losing your mark?
In my mind I can find arguments both for and against ambushing a target anyway, and it becomes more complicated because the Mark + DN interaction is bugged and it just feels weird to ambush anyway because of it.
But if I don't ambush, I feel the need to send that 7cp envenom asap and don't know if I should still send 5 ruptures and a CT before I do that...
worn forge
I read along and also wanna thank you for the breakdown - there is just one thin...
you should ambush
rose herald
Also if I ambush target 1 and send a 7cp env with DN up on target 2 afterwards, it seems like DN just does nothing on that 2nd target and mark is still up on the first?
worn forge
the majority of the marks value in aoe is just having it up for singular focus and clear the witnesses
hunt them down
etc
and you don't lose your darkest night doing so
you just lose 1 gcd of garrotes
which is totally whatever
worn forge
Also if I ambush target 1 and send a 7cp env with DN up on target 2 afterwards, ...
yeah there's some weirdness when you have both up, most of the time it will move
rose herald
yea okay I can see that
But that means I gotta find my main target at the beginning of the pull to ambush it right? or at least during subterfuge
coz I cant really reliably move the mark off of that first target even with DN up
rose herald
I just see some really long pulls sometimes where I could already garrote and spread ruptures on targets that just run after the tank, but I dont want mark on those guys
like first pull in HoA for example
maybe worth to send a vanish when everything clumps up I guess
anyway, thank you!
worn forge
np
rose herald
oh, 1 more thing
fok on 3 targets -> even when we dont take momentum of despair? should be 4 then?
but guide and bot both say 3 targets with the usual bleed m+ build
which no longer takes momentum of despair atm
rose herald
I often feel cp starved on 3, but I have low crit as well :/
worn forge
I mean
rose herald
mutilating somehow feels better
rose herald
yea but ambush procs n stuff? idk feels better to me
worn forge
that's not moving mountains
what about ambush procs
energy ain't an issue
you got 3 targets
rose herald
doesnt that somehow give more cp when I can ambush with a blindside procc, it feels that way but i cant read up on the talents atm
on 3 targets it just feels like i get more cp and therefore more envenoms out when i mutilate/ambush instead of fok, but i have less than 10k crit rating coz 0 on jewelery
worn forge
ya sure but it's also not doing damage
worn forge
doesnt that somehow give more cp when I can ambush with a blindside procc, it fe...
fok is 1 baseline + 1 per target crit
mut is 2 baseline + 1 per hit crit (2 max)
ambush is 2 baseline + 1 from improved ambush + 1 if you crit
so like
on 2 targets fok is obviously worse
on 3 it's like whatever
on 4 fok is obviously better
rose herald
yea 4 is no contest
does fok itself deal like significantly more damage on 3 targets than a mutilate or ambush
or is it whatever
worn forge
I mean when you add poisons and stuff it's a bit more
without the extra crit from momentum of despair it's like sorta whatever, mut on 3 isn't like "wrong" or anything
last I checked it was like 0.4% in favor of fok without momentum or some shit
rose herald
alright so its nothing major, thanks :)
its cool that you actually take the time to answer questions like these
worn forge
thrown precision is +10% crit on fok baseline though, that should be enough to carry
but if you're crit starved, that kinda blows regardless of anything you can change rotationally
rose herald
yea I am, but the sim still tells me vers is better than crit even at this point, and mastery is basically even with crit
just feels bad sometimes
worn forge
my solution to that
is that I'm a raider
and so my fatebound gear set
has like 35% crit
and I simply don't swap
rose herald
There is one last thing I wonder about - can spatter or rupture itself proc poisons on targets?
sometimes I pug a raid or smth and play fatebound, if there is any kind of aoe I talent into spatter. But: should I rupture offtargets for energy? Idk if anything even procs poisons on those so I would even get energy back
rose herald
has like 35% crit
haha well, I just dont have any necks or rings with crit 
worn forge
There is one last thing I wonder about - can spatter or rupture itself proc pois...
spatter no, the initial cast of rupture itself yes, the ticks of rupture no
rose herald
so what, i gotta hit those off targets with smth from time to time or not even rupture them at all?
worn forge
There is one last thing I wonder about - can spatter or rupture itself proc pois...
and the second part is just this
worn forge
so what, i gotta hit those off targets with smth from time to time or not even r...
(fok)
rose herald
yea but do you actually like track if it procced a poison on them
worn forge
oh god no
rose herald
fok doesnt guarantee it or does it
rose herald
im just asking because ususally fok in a single target specc like that would be on like 5 targets