we can also analyze your gear and give you tips how to best develop and what slots could easily be upgraded. sometimes people dont know about gear that is actually helping them
#classic-discussion
desert hazel
mossy prairie
wicked thanks so much!
current gear
options to replace
https://classic.wowhead.com/item=16832/bloodfang-spaulders
https://classic.wowhead.com/item=22002/darkmantle-belt
https://classic.wowhead.com/item=16825/nightslayer-bracelets
https://classic.wowhead.com/item=22007/darkmantle-pants
tyvm for the help mate 🙂
plucky nymph
Nope that's good.
desert hazel
current gear
@mossy prairie with your replacements you shouldnt replace anything right now but you should focus on some stuff:
- get better darkmantle parts. you want to have Head / Chest / Gloves / Boots
- replace spaulders with either T1 or ZG Set shoulders
- get earthstriker asap, alternatively Renatakis, wich I suggest anyway as in Pvp it will be forever BiS
- Seal of Jin is an immediate upgrade to Bersi ring and easy to get in ZG
- you didnt show any back, if you dont have it yet, get AQ20 set back, it's easy to get and very good
- replace your bracers with Nightslayer if you have your best darkmantle slots, obviously use T2 if you get access to it until then
- run BWL/MC/Ony to maximize chances on better sword. if you're not human, your focus should be Maladath imo as for your main hand you have options
- try getting the ZG offhand sword, it's really good offhand and easy to get
mossy prairie
- working on DM, just need SC chest and i can work on completing the last part to get full DM so I have more options to mix match
- I have ZG set shoulders or D2 available for shoulders
- i will try get these trinkets, thank you
- I have seal of jin
- my back is a piece of shit green, ill try get aq20 back
- bracers I have either ZG or nightslayer
- im actually trying to gear daggers, its going terribly
- i can also maybe get ZG chest item from hitting revered today if i spend the gold
desert hazel
Ah good, that looks quite promising. dont hurry with ZG rep, it's a 3day cooldown and you're far away from min maxing, dont focus on spending too much for intermediate progress imo
I didnt know you're interested in going daggers. If you do, it's really important to get ACLG as DS will be out of reach for you for a long time probably.
You have some interesting options for intermediate daggers, Perdition's still being great, you can also get Vael Dagger which typically drops well. Also Hakkar dagger is nice and hunters are a bit easier on it these days. This will also make an interesting offhand.
But as offhand, I suggest to go exalted with Cenarion Circle and get the set dagger. the 3set from AQ20 is dope for dagger rogues. for dagger rogues, AQ20 in general is pretty amazing
The good thing is, with running the 20 man instances you can make quite some progress
mossy prairie
-Sorry, what's ACLG and DS?
-Trying to get MC daggers just no luck on drops yet, same with Vaels dagger, only done BWL once tho
- Ran zg for the dagger every chance i get, no luck yet
- Been running AQ20 too - I have the item just need the rep and the other bits with it
- best way to get that rep? ^
cuz im only currently closed to honored lol
desert hazel
ACLG = https://classic.wowhead.com/item=18823/aged-core-leather-gloves
DS = https://classic.wowhead.com/item=21126/deaths-sting
good luck for your daggers then 🙂 They will drop eventually and you'll roll them
AQ20 is rather easy. you get around 2200-2300 per clear. you can do the quest grind in silithus, eat least until you have enough logistics/combat/tactical items for earthstrike quest anyway
Also AQ40 gives some AQ20 rep and the insignias are useful handins for some rep too (100 each)
other than that I suggest to do all silithus quests as they typically give CC rep and just keep going AQ20 on ID reset. it'll take a few weeks
weapon skill +7 (better: +8) is a high priority
it'll boost your damage a lot
mossy prairie
Awesome mate thanks so much!! Massive help
also do you know if t0.5 proc has any animation?
other than your energy bar jumping ofc
mossy prairie
also does anyone know the proc %?
desert hazel
it has an animation
it also has a loud sound (dispel sound)
and I use a Weak Aura to track per fight
you can modify trhat
untold atlas
raven snow
That sucks maigne
vocal otter
Ever just full sprint at someone and stealth just to see how they react?
Had a guy jump off a cliff just now and I'm really sad shadowplay wasn't recording.
desert hazel
lol gold moment 🙂
I just keep walking between alliance warlock ports in sili to see some buffs fade
shit keeps tensions high, sometimes our server is too kind to each other, that really messes with the game 🙂 respect the players, disrespect the toon at least on PvP servers
desert hazel
😄
pulsar pike
Guys, need some ideas...I am at 44, did a few quests on tanaris...don't wanna go to feralas (hate that map)..
any sugestions?
desert hazel
another wave STV, rather southern part
45 I suggest to go to Dustwallow Marsh
I definitely suggest to go feralas but thats up to you
you can also grind more
Tanaris should also still have quests for 46
47 then hinterlands, full grind, will be fun
maybe 48
mossy prairie
Was currently using this spec as human swords, but ive just got https://classic.wowhead.com/item=21244/blessed-qiraji-pugio so gonna go daggers, how different does the spec change other than that i move points into daggers. I also dont have any +dagger skill items, however have enough hit i think
is what i was using ^
desert hazel
for 100% pure pve you could make some changes in the combat tree but they're not really important
i run above spec for a tiny bit more pvp potency 🙂
w/o hurting my dmg
mossy prairie
cool id prefer to have some pvp ability
does hit % become valuable stat for dagger rogue
even above soft cap
someone told it me it was good
mossy prairie
Does backstab become number 1 combo generator?
and in pvp do you open with ambush typically or always cheap shot into kidney
regal axle
@here yo guys
when does signet of the bronze dragonflight take over master dragon slaying ring? at honored, revered or exalted?
signal ember
@mossy prairie If you're playing daggers, you should be backstabbing as backstab make up for huge chunk of damage unlike sword where it's more AA.
I would strongly recommend to get ACG, distracting blade or mugger belt as they get you dagger plus stat.
Distracting blade off last boss in dmw, mugger belt in dmn off the captain before king and acg off dog boss in mc.
desert hazel
yes, you actually need 308 (307 at least) weapon skill to be competitive as dagger. Best is Death's Sting from C'thun, 2nd best is ACLG from MC, then depending on your gear mugger's belt or distracting dagger from DM:N or DM:W
Does backstab become number 1 combo generator?
@mossy prairie yes. try getting Backstab rank 9 from AQ20 asap
and in pvp do you open with ambush typically or always cheap shot into kidney
@mossy prairie typically cheap shot. mages are a different story usually 🙂
does hit % become valuable stat for dagger rogue
@mossy prairie hit is super valuable. it always was and the misunderstanding of hitcap leads to many rogues dealing shit dmg even with evolving gear.
hit also increases your crit cap. just yesterday i analyzed a rogue on my server. he had 6% wasted crit (6% crit above critcap) because he listened to an idiot in his guild telling him he should stop with hit at softcap.
additionally, now in the darkmantle 4set meta, hit rating makes you proc more often (miss has no proc chance)
I explain the importance of hit around 2-3 times a week on my server, it's really weird how so many guides get it wrong and tell bullshit and people follow these guides
look at this spreadsheet. 6.12% crit is wasted because of not enough hit. just swapping out BhB trinket with 2% hit trinket from DM library (1g cost in AH) will highly increase his dps (but he's still above crit cap)
mossy prairie
Awesome mate, you've been so helpful. Got have rank backstab 9 so that's a plus
- Is it worth, if speccd into improve kick (im not just curious), using the 2sec silence to prevent instant blink during opener outside of the properly utilised 5sec spell school lockout or is that a waste?
I'll try digest that spreadsheet during lunch, my brain isn't digesting it too well at 9am rn haha
So does hit % ever reach a point as dagger utilising DM 4set where it stops being a useful stat? Like a hard cap or can is every bit i have on gear adding benefit. If that's literally what you just describe my bad, just wanna make 100%
desert hazel
Awesome mate, you've been so helpful. Got have rank backstab 9 so that's a plus
- Is it worth, if speccd into improve kick (im not just curious), using the 2sec silence to prevent instant blink during opener outside of the properly utilised 5sec spell school lockout or is that a waste?
I'll try digest that spreadsheet during lunch, my brain isn't digesting it too well at 9am rn haha
@mossy prairie Hey man, nP :)
imp kick can be worthit. i love it but its highly situational and typically not useful in a rather instant cast driven meta 🙂
So does hit % ever reach a point as dagger utilising DM 4set where it stops being a useful stat? Like a hard cap or can is every bit i have on gear adding benefit. If that's literally what you just describe my bad, just wanna make 100%
@mossy prairie yes but you will not reach that cap anytime soon if ever. I think it's technically possible in naxx but that would be intentional self gimping 😄
Hit is not always better. if your crit cap offers some space for more crit, go for it. especially Agi is awesome in that regard as it offers you AP and crit. it's always about balancing it well out. generally speaking, hit is a very strong stat in almost all situations
barren schooner
I’m struggling a little bit understanding ‘hit cap’, I’m at 13% hit on my dagger rogue (band of accuria, boots of shadow flame, other bits and pieces) but I heard the ‘soft hit’ cap is 6% or something? I also have ACLG.
Is there a tool I could use to figure out how I should be itemising my character right now? I’m generally following shadowpanther’s guide but I’m not sure how accurate it is.
desert hazel
your hit rating sounds quite healthy
it's important to understand how hit actually works and that it is minus miss, not really + hit generally. it's possible to get +1% hit gear without it affecting your normal hits at all (as you will crit 1% more, i'll explain further, gimme a sec)
First of all, we now talk about white dmg, not yellow one (yellow = damage from abilities) and this white damage is quite important for us, as it makes a big bunch of our damage and it's a lot trickier to understand than yellow dmg. Also we talk about dmg against instance bosses (Lvl 63)
Imagine every swing having a table with possible events, together that table has 100%
that tables ALWAYS has 40% chance to do a glancing blow. glancing blows are white hits that deal less damage. We can not counter those 40%, no gear has any effect on those 40%. with +weapon skill we reduce the damage penalty we deal. every hit above 300 gives us 4% less damage penalty against bosses (they are lvl 63, so they have 315 def) until 307, from 307 to 308 its 2% less. after that the effect on glancing blows stops. glancing blows will, even at 308+ weapon skill, still be 5% reduced in dmg but thats a lot better than the initial case of -30% 😄
additionally weapon skill gives a bit of other stats, also a bit of hit.
then you have miss. white swing miss rate starts at 24.6%. every 1%hit reduces that miss rate by 1% additionally to the small bits you reduce it with weapon skill above 300.
You also have 5.5% dodge. Let's not talk too much about that even though that itself can be a tiny little mathematical rollercoaster :D
Let's also agree on ignoring parry/block and just pretend we always stand behind the target for easier understanding as this should always be your target, no matter dagger or sword, with daggers its just more important 🙂
that gives us a table of 40 + 5.5 + 24.6 = 70.1
Add your crit % to that. let's say 20% as a low number. That makes 90.1% which would give you a rest of 9.9% of white hits in this table
as you see, hit is actually not what you push, it is what is left over 😄
now you can imagine. realistically you do not have 20% crit. you have 33% crit, buffed even a lot more, not to speak about consumables, having a feral and so on, even with low end gear.
but let's take above example and add a bit of realistic stats. let's take the "I only go to hit cap" people who believe all the bad guides out there. this guy stacked crit to 33% and has 6% hit as he's been told to do so (not his fault in the first place, good he's asking back!)
the table looks (roughly) like this: (roughly as I simplify dodge for the moment)
40% glancing blows + 5.5% dodge + 18.6% miss + 33% crit = 97.1% = 2.9% white hits
That is okish in terms of critcap!
But now this very same dude has consumables, world buffs and a feral in his team and gets additional 10% crit, which is nice (and realistic, I get more from consumables/buffs)
so now it is:
40% glancing blows + 5.5% dodge + 18.6% miss + 43% crit = 107.1%
This is not possible, 100% is the limit. so he has 0 white hits and wastes 7.1% of his crit rating.
Would he swap out 2% crit with 2% hit (for example Blackhands breadth with Royal Seal of Eldre'Thalas in the trinket slot) he would still waste crit but had actually 2% crit more, even though he equips less crit
40% glancing blows + 5.5% dodge + 16.6% miss + 41% crit = 103.1%
he misses 2% less which will lead to more actual crit. still, he loses crit towards the 41% but 2% less than before
(more to come, i'll delete this line here when I'm done)
now let's make a final calculation with a proper setup
our dude now has good itemization. not super badass BiS of all BiS 🙂 but thought through gear.
Let's assume: 13% hit and 40% crit, that's proper stats for phase 4 gear I'd say but low crit fully buffed (intentional for this calculation)
40% glancing blows + 5.5% dodge + 11.6% miss + 40% crit = 97.1%
That would mean, he gets the full 40% crit (more than the guys above with more crit!) and additionally does 2.9% white hits
that's shitload of more damage assuming AP and all other stuff is the same
and only done with having more +hit instead of +crit
this gets even better when we talk about having darkmantle 4set with on proc effect (+35 energy) and having more procs because we have less miss
**Sorry for this wall of text, I spammed you and that might be bad for some of you but I thought it might be helpful to actually understand hit, if you haven't already. I'm done with my Spam now XD **
oh btw I have written this 100% out of my head. to be super safe, double check the numbers
barren schooner
I appreciate the detailed response, have had a quick read but I wanna sit down and properly analyse what you’ve said over a beer tonight
desert hazel
Short version: Calculate your white crit cap, if you overshoot, replace crit with hit
Super short version: hit is good for you
blissful linden
Hey, im lvling a rogue with a friend right now, im playing as a combat dagger spec (since i can reliably hit the back it sounds like its better) do i ever consider a different offhand weapon or do i always keep daggers in both hands?
desert hazel
if you're not very experienced I really suggest to play sword 1-60
blissful linden
why is that ?
desert hazel
leveling as dagger only really works if twinking or if you want to spend a lot more time than necessary
blissful linden
i thought its dmg is stronger?
atleast thats what the guides say
keep in mind im playing duo only
desert hazel
the problem is, you need to be behind the target to make consistantly enough dmg
for that you spend a lot of time with stunlocking/gouging
blissful linden
no i dont
desert hazel
and more targets are a real issue typically
blissful linden
i got a warr duo he always has aggro
desert hazel
yeah ok that technically works, it's still slower but would work somehow
blissful linden
well we did experience do have problems with multiple targets
so its always more dps / faster do play with swordspec?
desert hazel
sword would be way faster for you guys, it's also easier to consistently upgrade your weapon
so its always more dps / faster do play with swordspec?
@blissful linden pretty much, yes
desert hazel
dagger itemization has more gaps between upgrades and typically costs gold while sword works well with quests/dungeonquests
oh lucky you, you're just before 2 really good dungeon quest swords
blissful linden
perhaps maybe
blissful linden
gnomeregan?
desert hazel
if you're alliance
if you're horde, there is a similar one to sword of serenity in UC from varimathras
desert hazel
check above quests. first you can get Sword of Serenity from monastery
then you can get vanquisher's from razorfen
blissful linden
ok thank you
desert hazel
that way you have an amazing mainhand which you replace with an even better mainhand and put the already amazing sword in your offhand 😄
anyway, generally you can ignore offhand during leveling
mainhand is way more important
blissful linden
ok thanks mate 🙂
blissful linden
ok ty so i stay dagger till i get a good sword or lvl 34 and got a dungeon group
desert hazel
yeah ask if you can join a scarlet grp thats being boosted
typically they let you join
blissful linden
ok ty
pulsar pike
@desert hazel
Death, I have serenity and vanquished right now. Got 45, going after thrash sword. How my setup should be? 😬
desert hazel
in terms of gear? offhand? nvm, just go for thrash blade and itwill make a big difference. dont worry too much. it will carry you to 60
pulsar pike
in terms of gear? offhand? nvm, just go for thrash blade and itwill make a big difference. dont worry too much. it will carry you to 60
@desert hazel
And which one should I use on the offhand?
plucky nymph
OH doesn't matter all too much, use whichever is the faster and gives the most stats.
desert hazel
Exactly. take the best you have access to but dont worry too much, it's not really important until endgame
pulsar pike
Thanks!!!!
plucky nymph
😐
jolly grove
hey guys what is the good pvp spec for daggers but without full t2 gear
i currently have like mix t1 t2 pre raid bis
desert hazel
are you asking for a spec (talents) or gear?
jolly grove
@desert hazel talents
signal ember
I'm planning to go 16/8/27 3 MoD and 2 HS, rest is typical daggers PvP talents.
desert hazel
https://classic.wowhead.com/talent-calc/rogue/005320105-320302002-05024303030012
I still suggest this here for dagger. it's my goto build with imp. sprint but there are options
rancid aurora
hello in classic wow for PvP which is stronger dagger or sword and why
signal ember
There's both pros and cons to it, its just down to what you want to do.
slow weapon hemo is mainly for the control and burst on demand where daggers can be bursty with ambush and backstab. Especially with ZG trinket.
My current build
Standard hemo build
https://classic.wowhead.com/talent-calc/rogue/305320105101-3-500253000332121
rancid aurora
i see thanks
desert hazel
Both is viable and fun. For solo pvp I prefer dagger. Its a safe kill and you easily kill pvp mages too while its a bit more jeopardized as hemo. They can outplay you.
Hemo is pretty dope in group pvp. You are less reliable on positioning and even CDs as you build up CPs faster but need CDs for burst.
Also SF is more and more a threat as a support build in BGs with imp. EA and imp. Kidney. In premades this can be a real gamechanger
desert hazel
My current build
@signal ember don't you miss imp. sprint or is it a BG only build?
I play around a lot but end up with imp. sprint all the time as it's just the one build that wins against everyone
floral remnant
are there any guides for frost dmg proc weapons and visc? im going to get the hammer of the north wind and darrowspike
desert hazel
Hammer is good, coldrage is good. darrowspike is rather low in ppm
I think when adding frost oil, coldrage probably is best but can be that hammer is still slightly better
in my tests I fared best of my guild with 2 coldrage + frost oil
floral remnant
ok thank you
desert hazel
coldrage is also super easy to farm
floral remnant
thank you. Im going for two coldrage. Are there any positive effects with icy chill?
desert hazel
I think yes. I personally have not tested it but the fightclub discord has and they stated it works
floral remnant
ok thank you
desert hazel
acc the description it shouldnt but it did in their tests and i've seen the logs
floral remnant
thank you very much
signal ember
@desert hazel imp sprint is good but it's no different than playing as hemo and I can stand toes to toes against rogues too.
desert hazel
thats why I prefer Hemo or SF in BGs and dagger in solo openworld pvp
in BGs i typically have access to dispels
signal ember
I have to do ZG or I miss this madness boss rotation then 3 more weeks for ZG trinket. Going to be so good with tea as daggers.
desert hazel
Its insane :)
pulsar pike
So if I plan to pvp mainly with a friend that is a Mage, the better choice would be swords and the hemo build?
desert hazel
in that specific lineup I'd suggest to either go standard dagger (with imp sprint) or if you can cover the gear SF with imp kidney
gear has a high impact on the 2nd option, both your gear and your friends one
pulsar pike
in that specific lineup I'd suggest to either go standard dagger (with imp sprint) or if you can cover the gear SF with imp kidney
@desert hazel 👍
past hemlock
I have a question has anyone simmed whether Crusader or Superior Striking is better on death sting because I heard it can go either way? and are the sims with or without ACLG
desert hazel
crusader is better by around 5-6 dps in my sim with ACLG and without
past hemlock
and does fap work on silithid royalty fear?
desert hazel
not tested (wotf)
past hemlock
I figure its better with ACLG but plan to replace ACLG when I get deathsting so curious how it changes
desert hazel
ACLG are only really an option if you run SF
DS + combat spec (or human) brings you to 308 daggers which caps you
you have no further glancing blows penalty reduction after 308
so ACLG + DS only really makes sense for Seal Fate builds
for combat it's a lot butter to run a better darkmantle setup (like sword: Head + Chest + Gloves + Boots) and use a better shoulder, best would be T2.5 out of my head
or just run full T2.5 if you have access to it
past hemlock
so it looks like Crusader is performing better than superior striking at 308 daggers still?
desert hazel
yes
past hemlock
kk
desert hazel
I still prefer +5 but that's a pvp decision
past hemlock
ya im all pve 🙂
desert hazel
ok 🙂 go crusader / agi then
past hemlock
ty
desert hazel
that gives you the advantage of at least around a typical item upgrade against other possible setups
signal ember
If you do pvp often, then I'd go with the 5+, otherwise purely pve as rogue crus is better.
tepid terrace
Should i follow the wowhead guide for leveling or pick deflection into riposte?
plucky nymph
Shadowpanther
desert hazel
I still support picking up riposte
plucky nymph
Not taking it for leveling is a poop idea.
desert hazel
thats the goto for solo leveling still
sullen oasis
Best profession for rogue to make money? Also when to pick it up and focus on it instead of leveling (I'm 32 rn) I looked on google but they're all mixed so I'd like to get some opinions here
candid sage
depends a bit on your server's economy, how heavily camped endgame mat gathering is, etc
most professions on my home server are pretty scuffed, outdoor gathering is botted heavily, instance gathering is only possible for certain specific mats and classes (herbing in DME might be a good fit for rogue), crafting professions aren't usually worth the cost of leveling mats
but it's all server by server so if you can figure out what your server is doing in those areas you'll have an idea
plucky nymph
AH Spec.
neat crater
Fishing can be a good one, since it doesn't seem to struggle with bots as much. Even Blackmouth oil is needed end-game, so you can make a profit there if you're smart about it. Raid tanks will forever be suckers for a good ol' FAP
urban junco
I'm sure this has been asked before, but I am new here. For sword rogue, is it better to run a lower dps sword or a higher dps dagger in the offhand?
plucky nymph
@urban junco This depends entirely on the weapons being compared.
urban junco
I'm currently running Mirah's, I'm looking where the next step should start for damage weapons.
plucky nymph
Keep Mirahs until Brutality Blade, OH Warblade, Maladath.
past hemlock
can I get a profession opinion
from high parsing rogues
I just got band of accuria but I am daggers and wont use until I replace the AQ20 3 set do I save until I get Deathsting/Pugio or double Pugio or do I give to another rogue and just use bronze dragonflight ring
I am already at 15% hit
plucky nymph
save what? DKP?
drowsy flare
accuria is > anything else you can get, you should be replacing the dragonslayer ring for the aq20 ring
pastel moth
Has anyone done some tests on seal fate with deathdealers recently? struggling to find good information on how well it plays in P5
talking about seal fate for raiding btw
drowsy flare
its maybe semi viable with death sting but not really
desert hazel
Seal fate can be dope in bgs as support build for your r14 warriors. In PvE it has a niche slot as imp.EA slave
Its fun to play with 50%+ crit but thats it.
bronze crystal
@desert hazel : have you compared the dps output of a full Phase 4 swords rogue vs swords Darkmantle ?
this is what I mean with full P4 gear :
desert hazel
you mean which one is better with standard combat spec? or SF?
bronze crystal
yes which one is better
desert hazel
darkmantle
bronze crystal
this, or include 4/8 darkmantle
desert hazel
head/chest/gloves/boots to start with
bronze crystal
this was not the answer I was hoping to get 😂
desert hazel
T2.5 is better. more consistant, same avg dps more or less but bigger life pool
desert hazel
no problem mate 🙂 T0.5 is only better than T2.5 if you're into parse fishing
which i clearly dislike
bronze crystal
understood! ❤️
shadow sinew
Is there a good sim out there for classic?
desert hazel
1?
plucky nymph
Suppose the other post was three HOURS ago huh > _>
desert hazel
yeah best sims imo are Garcia's and SImonize
this is garcia's
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14bmOiIIj7pMueT5ROE5qVIAPvlu04Ug0xz6CMCJSqiY/edit?usp=sharing
this is simonize
both are dope
I prefer garcia's if I only pick one but I think this is only because it's been my goto since forever
simonize is as good
plucky nymph
Ditto
If Simon had released his when everyone was like JUST GET WPS IDIOT things would have been different.
and the 1 is my bullshit Rank 1 Ossirian parse.
It's bullshit.
desert hazel
nice 😄
desert hazel
my best was rank 3 Buru and Rank 10 Ossirian I think
It's really really hard for me to do good parses in general with my swiss-only-community-guild
some of us still have no clue how to play their classes
and we never had a full raid in AQ 🙂
only have one 99 in AQ40
and we just killed ouro 1 time after an endless fight
desert hazel
yeah, I'm fine with that. sometimes I would prefer not to outdamage them all but be more successful with the raids but I love the guild and I love these people 🙂
plucky nymph
Having a good time is all that really matters.
desert hazel
we have a rl meeting saturdays and more people will join than in a raid XD
yes, it's a community game
I enjoy this a lot but can be frustrating when you still have to explain them basic stuff after months
plucky nymph
Of course.
desert hazel
damn your log 😄 insane hahaha
desert hazel
but such a wholesome log generally. still a warrior in front of you
i wish that would happen to me XD
plucky nymph
Yeah that's gonna happen.
desert hazel
we have a yellow front with some warriors and mages after that. it's not ok
should not be like that
plucky nymph
I think our mages are still waiting on a hot Ossirian parse, dunno.
desert hazel
yeah doesnt matter that much. I have all or almost all 99s too in AQ20 even tho I go pug but its just AQ20 in the end. you have dope AQ40 logs, which I have not. only 1 99 and some 95+ but not all
plucky nymph
Yeah we put a lot of planning into AQ40 even though I still think we're pretty meh as a guild.
There's just not enough mechanics to ruin things.
Though being too close on TwinEmps is getting there for some people...
desert hazel
it's not comparable to us mate 🙂 20+ ppl still dont understand a single boss
plucky nymph
Yeah we put even more time into recruitment since our BWL entrance sparked a fire under some people >_>
desert hazel
our first MC raid was 4.5h of luci wiping
BWL we at least killed first 2 bosses
AQ we killed 3 😄
if your recruitment condition is "be swiss, live in switzerland or at least be open to learn swiss dialect" you're pretty much screwed 😄
plucky nymph
Whelp, least they're clear about their recruitment parameters.
hushed laurel
god, i would be... rather upset if our dps wiped us because they hung out too close to the emps
desert hazel
I think we never had a worldbuff emp try :X
hushed laurel
we have 1 rogue who hugs the melee emp longer than we like, but we gently reminded him that if he wipes 39 other people because he wants to do 2 more dps he will pay for everyone consumes
desert hazel
but our melees do it rather okish
plucky nymph
In this case it was a shaman redropping totems and just got caught a little too close but we recovered.
Spooked him though.
desert hazel
and I'm stuck at 94 emp logs as it takes AGES till we kill them
hushed laurel
our emps kills are slow, but we dont care that much
plucky nymph
Hey if they die that's still pretty good.
desert hazel
monday we did ouro first try but still deep after phase 2
and only our 2nd ouro try
*kill
hushed laurel
ouro is our ugliest boss by far
desert hazel
we havent killed visci
hushed laurel
we have shamans
desert hazel
we dont 😄
and we're horde!
but even when we had (pug) we didnt manage to get the kill
hushed laurel
ouch
we do melee out, all the melee have drost weapons, but melee out is so brain dead easy
desert hazel
people are allowed to come to the raid as they wish more or less. blue geared enhancer, no problem, feral? nP, shadowpriest? nP. MS warri? nP, we're really slow
we have many dds that do less than half of my dmg
hushed laurel
i suck at dps, but still end up in top 10ish usually, our rogues are all really solid pumpers. we just lost one of our 2 big pumper warriors sadly
desert hazel
this was our last emps. it's so hard with us XD takes ages
5.39 and it was by far our fastes I think
hushed laurel
our last emps
the 22 was an ele shaman who got classified as enhance because... he healed
pastel wyvern
anyone online that could answer a question for me?
pastel wyvern
With the azure key quest, what reward is the best to take
heard some people say cape because you will never get rid of it because of the effect
desert hazel
doesnt really matter too much. you replace all of them but cape at least has a potential use
but I bet you will never touch any of them ever again
pastel wyvern
ill prob go for cape then because ihave a decent helm anyway
desert hazel
yeah, today it's really nothing you should focus on
desert hazel
I leave at 1s
hushed laurel
🤢
eager oriole
This has probably been asked a dozen times, but whats the best point to swap to seal fate vs combat?
signal ember
Personally,with positioning and movements in AQ, I'd keep playing swords if you are. Naxx should be more daggers friendly.
Otherwise when you're hitting 30% crit unbuffed or when I swapped to SF, I was at 28% but with kings and marks, that pushed to 30% is ideal.
desert hazel
SF will most probably never be competitive with combat, neither sword nor dagger, in PvE
I am open to all calculations/sims/ideas that show otherwise
I am a bit sad about it actually as I was looking forward to SF 🙂
eager oriole
Ah damn, yeah Im roughly 25% crit but got fang of faceless
have zeal sword MH so was tempted to swap dag
but def seems worth to stick to combat still
appreciate info
plucky nymph
The above is correct, SF will never compete with Adrenaline Rush.
signal ember
Playing seal fate was fun overall however. Just remember that you're playing 15 years old contents.
plucky nymph
Hilariously this kind of thing happened a few more times in future expansions where stat scaling invalidated most if not all other options.
But none as bad as you stopping using Finishers >_>
signal ember
Made lot of dads mad last night by killing them fully buffed.
plucky nymph
That weren't bugs
desert hazel
But none as bad as you stopping using Finishers >_>
@plucky nymph yeah..wtf XD
Made lot of dads mad last night by killing them fully buffed.
@signal ember it's your job, keep doing it 🙂
plucky nymph
To be fair it is when fully buffed, but I have to assume something.
desert hazel
its a bit sad how fun rogue pvp can be but how lame it looks on videos. this combination of complete control and burst dmg just doesnt look appealing
lyric mica
hey, in phase6 will combat sword outdps daggers?
plush vigil
Daggers and swords should remain relatively similar in dps phase 6
desert hazel
overall, sword typically runs higher dps. if you isolate it to bosses, I'd say they level out well depending on gear and in P6 this will persist mostly.
for speedrunners I typically suggest swords if they want to tryhard and squeeze every second as the cleave dps potential is higher
in P5 sword is stronger until dagger rogues have DS, that level's it out and gives dagger rogues the edge in boss fights (slightly)
This transfers well to P6 until the crazy good weapons are distributed 🙂
signal ember
Yeah but daggers requiring positions and movements kind of screw that up
plush vigil
You don't want exactly wanna dps in front of boss with swords either
hushed laurel
naw, parry haste is the healers and tanks problem, not mine
marble dune
imagine being pigeon holed into daggers bc not human rogue 
signal ember
I should start stacking ap as hemocb.
drowsy phoenix
marble dune
both are solid specs
diff specs for different scenarios
casual wpvp/group ganking daggers is great for one shot noobs
hemo is good for more organized pvp or duels vs good players
desert hazel
I couldn't agree more
Both are dope in the right hand at the right time. Dagger can really suck you out if you're out of CDs and when your dmg is not the most important part as you're more in a support role WITH high dmg.
I love dagger pvp, it's great for 1vX world pvp, its fun and it defines what I love in wow classic gameplay (while I understand that generally wow classic is mostly a chat with graphics, it's more social media than a game)
but, if you want to sustainably be useful to a team pvp scenario, as in BGs, hemo or support SF can be a huge step forward compared to daggers, at least when you run out of cooldowns
gritty goblet
@signal ember ap scales poorly with evis, what dayvanie has going for him is 5 set t2.5, expose armor and i believe imp kidney
tropic turret
floral remnant
Hey guys. I have a question
Well. For now i have 309 Weapon skill as a ud (2 points in weapon expertise and maladath) and roughly 15% hit.
So should i take one point from weapon expertise and move it to another tree or skll?
desert hazel
nope 🙂
floral remnant
Mhm ok. What is the cap there? And should i prefer improved evis vs. murder ?
desert hazel
until 308 it's actually worth it. patially because the lack of alternatives.
As sword prio evis. murder really only kicks nowadays if you dont do AQ but only focus on old content but I dont think thats the case with your stats 🙂
murder is completely wasted in AQ
floral remnant
ok thank you very much 😉
desert hazel
nP 🙂
309 weap + 15% hit sounds really healthy. I think you either miss DFT or accuria?
desert hazel
ah I see, nice
I skip T2.5 completely for others
will chug it towards end of the phase
plucky nymph
hoooboi 💦
desert hazel
thats dope 🙂
plucky nymph
Yeah gonna lose like... 3? percent maybe in Naxx but have like 18 leaving AQ40 I think.
Something like that anyway, 2.5 just has it basically on every piece.
desert hazel
I think leveling in at around 18 is good
plucky nymph
Will have 20% hit if BoA would ever drop, 19 otherwise it looks like, wooIguess.
desert hazel
good luck on BoA, we have one so far
plucky nymph
Yeah they don't exist, AFAIK.
desert hazel
its my 2nd prio after DS
probably should be pugio but I really want to focus on getting DS and BoA
Pugio is just easy to get anytime
plucky nymph
ye
marble dune
thanks blizz
hushed laurel
https://media.tenor.com/images/540bced7b575941653db25108497d740/tenor.gif
https://media.tenor.com/images/cd927ca67ce593afa8de5642e78538d3/tenor.gif
Hardiness I'd the best racial
Unless you weren't fighting an orc, in which case, wow you got fukt
desert hazel
true dmg hit n run them 🙂
hushed laurel
30% of the time it works every time
raven snow
did anyone have any issues with the animation of nugenergy not working ? the ticks work, but the animation of the bar doesn't 
plucky nymph
I don't use it sorry. Was there an update recently?
raven snow
I just started using it, so probably something fucked up at my end but don't seem to find what, tried reinstalling the add-on, running only that add-on to see if something fucks it up, no luck
plucky nymph
weird, any settings options you can change?
marble dune
t2.5 is poggers
gritty lichen
hey guys im relativly new to wow classic, im level 28 got full defias set, i was wondering whats the next step of armor i should get and at what lvl?
queen coyote
Classic gearing isnt similar to retail gearing if you're used to that and you don't go set by set either
Overall quest reward and dungeon drops are the way to go
You can see quest rewards by zone and faction on wowhead I bet
desert hazel
dont waste your time on armor. focus on getting some good quest weapons and completely ignore armor itemization, it's easy to level as a rogue, you dont need that extra protection/stats
gritty lichen
but isnt there some sort of item i should be going for at a certain lvl?
desert hazel
there is. but only weapons
soon the scarlet mon quest is interesting for you
what faction are you @gritty lichen
desert hazel
ok, just wanted to know if I try to help you. .. ..... ...... bye
😄
https://classic.wowhead.com/item=6829/sword-of-serenity
this is your next goto sword. forget it until there, focus to level, find a group or someone to boost you through all scarlet instances, get the Q done, party hard with this amazing new must have sword
https://classic.wowhead.com/quest=1053/in-the-name-of-the-light
This is the quest and you can get it on lvl 34
signal ember
But leading up to that quest will require you to kill i believe 37-39 lvl mobs
So just beware of that
then the next one will be from RFD, you get quest in cath in SW
near wagon
gotta question swing timer or no human swords rogue
sharp oriole
can someone refresh my memory, in BWL you could talk to a goblin (charm) and you were able to train smelting in elementium? or something like that?
hushed laurel
yes
you can mind control elementium shaper K-something, he is after all of the "lab packs", next to the first set of 3 drakanoid wyrmguards, near ebonroc and flamgor
once he is mind controlled, he can cast an ability on ANYONE, to teach them to smelt elementium, even if they dont have mining. if they learn mining, they keep the fact that it was cast on them
signal ember
Finally done, now off to murder horde for the whole weekend. Powerleveled eng and got my ZG trinket.
Pumped.
hushed laurel
did you level gnomish then drop it for goblin?
signal ember
Yes, I did that. Still have to get the rocket helm but just pvpin in org.
marble dune
Renataki + tea is very OP in 1v1 situations
desert hazel
Yes but 1v1 is not our problem most of the time anyway
signal ember
rocket helm is so unbelievable good for gap closer. especially when im not running imp sprint backstab build.
desert hazel
having Engineering in PvP is a game changer. it's adding so much to your kit and so many fun things. reflectors alone can offer insane options.
desert hazel
we won a whole guild vs guild fight because we've taken out the hunter traps with the frost reflectors. that would have really messed up our game otherwise as they were prepared (waiting for us) and we were not XD
plush vigil
Engineering is a huge money sink though
Even if you sell sappers
If i duel a hunter I found the barov trinket to be useful to trigger freezing trap
desert hazel
Engineering is a huge money sink though
@plush vigil define huge. I found engineering quite chill. yeah, it won't make you rich but I always found it doesnt drain much money either
plush vigil
If you go gnomish, get all gadgets and then switch goblin
You won't sell much with gnome engineering
desert hazel
yeah sure but it's also quite cheap to get it done twice
and sappers are a bit a pain in the ass to create but not too expensive
even less a problem when your guildies farming ele earth help you out with solid stones 😄
plush vigil
Sure but you pay a good amount of gold to switch, get recipess and then have sappers to earn profit from
You eventually get the money back and profit
desert hazel
I never sold a single sapper
plush vigil
But compared to alchemy your gold gain is really slow
desert hazel
ah ok now I get it. yes I agree, engi is mostly one directional, you spend and dont really earn much. but so what, it's not a money maker, it's a dude killer job 🙂
yes, I fully agree
nobody picks engi to make a fast buck
plush vigil
Oh yeah you use engi for pvp/parsing :p
desert hazel
I thought you mean it's expensive to keep yourself stocked up with engi resources
yes
I could never imagine having any character without engi
plush vigil
Idk i replaced engi on my rogue with alch and cannot look back
desert hazel
yeah it really depends on your gameplay and your focus
for me it's PvP > raiding > nothing
plush vigil
And when I pvp with daggers i don't feel like engi would've made a huge difference in 98% of tbe situations
Some 1v1 duels sure
desert hazel
while obviously, unrelated to engi, the most important factor is community. it's a chat with graphics afterall. it's more social media than any social media lol
plush vigil
Man for pvp i really wanna get claw of the black drake
And pve as well to switch up the playstyle from daggers
desert hazel
depends on your fights. in the current burst meta it mostly matters who starts the fight in 1v1 but in 1vX Engi makes a huge difference
plush vigil
Been using the same weapons since phase 1
plush vigil
I don't consistently raid anymore so DS gets prioritised to active raiders 😛
plush vigil
I do like daggers a lot but would like to switch to fist/ swords once in a while
desert hazel
typically you should not face big issues getting the claw
we already diss it
well actually since quite a while
plush vigil
the issue is it's not dropping
desert hazel
yeah that sucks
plush vigil
I'm the only person soft reserving it so should be no issue
desert hazel
we have bad luck with Mala
plush vigil
We got like 6 malas
plush vigil
But only 1cts drop through phase 4/5
desert hazel
a CTS are dumped
plush vigil
I would gladly give you our mala rng if you give cts
desert hazel
😄
plush vigil
Since we mostly have human rogues/ warriors
desert hazel
All I want for myself is DS and I get it if it drops.
for my bois I want maladath avalanche :X
plush vigil
The biggest upside of DS is that you can remove those ugly core hound gloves
plush vigil
But yeah since DS is out of reach hoping for claw of the black drake, simms show it's on par with current bis weapons
claw mh cht oh and we good to go
desert hazel
they're nice for pvp
plush vigil
Claw hemo in pvp is insane
desert hazel
Hemo PvP is fun, I like both
I enjoy the high burst potential I have with daggers
but I also enjoy the control I have with Hemo
desert hazel
Renatakis / Tea kills pretty much everything, feels a bit like cheating
desert hazel
yeah they survive but you still win if you have the opener
yeah against a shadow you have to be ready to reset at least once
plush vigil
Pvping with rogue is fun but man classic has so many buggy interactions
desert hazel
yes
not just buggy, it's simply not balanced 🙂 but thats ok
just never get cocky for dominating in such a game^^
plush vigil
Vanish not cancelling enemy aa
LOS practically non existant
Flare having a bigger range than the visual display.
Spell batching making mages have a bigger frost nova radius
Hunters tracking rogues with pets even after vanish
And many more
desert hazel
yeah but you get used to that right
I never complain
as a rogue I am more part of the problem than suffering from them 😄
fucking humans are a sorry bunch hahahaha but I learnt to adapt quite fast. just sucks if they are in a group and you have to waste vanish before you even open
plush vigil
You experience humans
But
We experience the orc racial
And lemme tell you that passive can be really infuriating
hushed laurel
orc racial is the most busted racial in the game
but you deserve the pain in dealing with it, because you made the mistake of rolling bluebois
desert hazel
orc racial is ugly, agree
Especially in my server
@plush vigil why? wehave around 50/50
plush vigil
What is your server?
desert hazel
Transcendence EU
plush vigil
Ah well we have around 60/40 alliance favoured in zandalari tribe
desert hazel
that's still ok
plush vigil
Was 50/50 but phase 2 hit and some top horde guilds transferred servers
desert hazel
yeah can be that we shifted as well
plush vigil
So horde rn has like one competitive guild
And big issues finding groups
50/50 servers are sweet tho
desert hazel
it's good for open pvp and blackrock/sili fun
marble dune
sweet jesus
daring coyote
Dagger of veiled shadows oh vs cht, aq20 cloak vs cloak of firemaw, and nef head ring vs aq20 ring, I think the 3pc from aq20 is better. Thoughts?
Mh is pugio
desert hazel
Dagger of veiled shadows oh vs cht, aq20 cloak vs cloak of firemaw, and nef head ring vs aq20 ring, I think the 3pc from aq20 is better. Thoughts?
@daring coyote you, sir, are completely right 🙂
cloak and offhand are better on their own, even better as set. ring only because of set. will die when you have either DS and pugio wanders to OH or with concentrated hatred (potentially, its quite close there)
daring coyote
Good to know. I'm trying it out in raid tonight looking forward to 15 eng snd
austere dirge
Hey guys, i started playing classic a few days ago. wanted to do the rogue class quest "Mission: Possible But Not Probable" for the poisons and the tea recipe, but the quest just disappeared from my quest log and i cant accept any quests from the rogue trainer either
has this happened to anyone before? i tried using google but didnt help at all lol
plucky nymph
Could it be an addon that is hiding the quest?
ancient phoenix
Do you still have the whistle in your inventory?
Maybe see if taskmaster has a quest for you
thorn bane
So i just got Death's Sting. My spreadsheet is putting crusader as a 3-4 dps increase, is this true?
desert hazel
So i just got Death's Sting. My spreadsheet is putting crusader as a 3-4 dps increase, is this true?
@thorn bane wow congratulations man! that's awesome 🙂 I'll have a scotch on that!
crusader is better than +15 agi, by around 3-4 dps, that's exactly correct
around 5 dps compared to +5 which is nice for pvp
thorn bane
Oh damn, ok, I've been under the assumption that +5/+15agi was better than crus/+15 agi. All good! Time to bust out the NS gloves lol CHEERS! @desert hazel
plucky nymph
It is when you don't want to rely on the RNG of Crusader.
marble dune
crusader also increase the risk of your buffs getting pushed off fyi
plucky nymph
Yarrr.
desert hazel
Agi/Agi has the risk to push you over critcap. Crusader can crush your buff cap. the safest would be +5/+15 agi but it's not the highest dps overall.
I agree it depends what you like. to be most predictable, run +5/+15 agi (it's what I do today but I will probably swap to crusader/+15 agi when I get DS, not 100% sure yet)
signal ember
If anything, just do 5+ dmg, especially if you pvp
thorn bane
This was really helpful. I’m a teacher so no time to pvp atm. Gonna keep testing sader. Went well last night, I’m never really close to@buff cap but it’s something I’ll keep an eye on it. Keeping an eye on procs has been somewhat enjoyable actually.
Heal doesn’t hurt either lol
marble dune
the only time a rogue is close to buff cap is when all cds are popped together
Sprint/Evasion/AR/BF/Earthstrike
- few protection pots
i popped all my cds, and vanished for aggro (vanish take up TWO buff slots) and knocked off my zg/ony buff last week
super feelsbadmoment
signal ember
I got purged, wasted 1 hr on my dmf buff and it's peak PvP time at dmf in mulglore.
All because I tried to get SF after telling my officer that I'm not getting it so they called me pussy and will lootban me.
2nd time. First one teabagging a shaman from a rival guild and he ankh's to purge me.
marble dune
gotta go for the non-popular flowers
the ones by the FP is a big no no
and scout it with an alt beforehand
hushed laurel
What a toxic guild you're in
signal ember
Least I got my claw off firemaw and T2.5 helm and parsed really well this week
marble dune
i would shame any melee that doesnt get full wbuffs
raven snow
for sword rogue, do u allways use hoj? or can i avoid farming it? i got maelstrom and breatdh trinket atm
can also use rune of the guard captian instead of breatdh or maelstrrom
plucky nymph
@raven snow What else you got?
plucky nymph
ahhh, dunno about daggers could run a sim real fast, mind listing all of your options again?
desert hazel
any combination between the on use ones (Renatakis, ES, JG) work and obviously they all work well with DFT.
If you can't get any of those and really dislike HoJ farm just skip it until you get one of those in the future as if you dont have access to them, the difference between HoJ/BhB or whatever else doesnt really matter that much imo
versed sparrow
hey guys i noticed a lot of recent discussion about daggers vs swords / hemo for pvp. Im recently trying to gear up a rogue for pvp and was wondering what the big deal about claw of the black drake is or that other fist weapon? I know they are good hemo items, but what makes it better than any other good sword when it comes to hemo pvp?
desert hazel
mostly its availability. you can typically get it without much competition
versed sparrow
ahhh ok, so if i get a good dps sword like CTS or mala probably dont need to worry about fist weapons then?
plucky nymph
For Hemo it's entirely about MH weapon speed, item level, and the stats you have elsewhere.
Claw is likely fine for a while.
marble dune
i think hemo is more user-friendly than daggers is for someone thats new to pvp
plucky nymph
Low NRG cost/etc.
marble dune
safe to assume any rogue pvp alts arent gonna have rentaki/chug tea constantly, which is a massive boost to dagger dps
reliant on those cooldowns to do any dps
signal ember
I'm playing hemo and I do miss the burst that daggers can get, especially with tea and renataki.
So after raid, I'm going back to daggers.
karmic lantern
Do I swap HoJ or BhB for Earthstrike as a dagger rogue? Assuming that I'm not crit capped
stable vector
Hey guys im around level 30 sword spec and i am wondering if its ok to have a dagger as my secondary weapon if its a dps increase or do i just wear sword because of the specialization all the way?
desert hazel
dagger is just fine
sword spec comes rather late if it comes at all during leveling process
you can anytime respec if you want to go full sword spec leveling at no or low casts and the respec costs reset by 5g every month, so you can expect that you're back to low costs anyway at 60
dont hesitate to use that respec
offhands are not really necessary, you can mostly ignore it and just use whatever you find. having the best possible MH at hand brings more benefit than micromanaging your offhand until endgame
full sword probably is the best leveling spec but I personally skipped sword spec until 55 or so to get more flexibility, e.g. maces and just rush through.
if you intend to stay sword in endgame, it can be good to get sword spec and focus on having 2 swords as well to get the feeling, it's crucial to have MH sword then obviously and learn the swing timer reset already so you dont have to learn it in endgame instances
stable vector
I plan to go daggers in late, tbh only reason i go sword its because all guides say its much easier to lvl with them. It is good to hear i dont have to worry as much on my secondary weapon for now.
Also on the swing timer i have read about it, correct me if im wrong please, i have to use sinister strike right after my main weapon swings. right?
desert hazel
guides are mostly right about sword being faster (this from someone who critisizes many guides out there)
as a 30 you soon can get sword of omen (horde) or sword of serenity (alliance)
get it asap. then you'll get vanquisher's sword soon after that from RFD, with that combo you're set for a while anyway as MH/OH
these 2 weapons should be your focus, get them the earliest possible and you'll be fine with weapons for 7 or 8 lvls
with 45 you'll want to get thrash blade asap and with that your set until endgame dungeons / instances
desert hazel
nP 🙂
going dagger is a good decision I'd say as the current meta seems to be that everyone is nuts for swords.
I understand them (I am a dagger rogue though) as sword spec definitely shines in current content and probably in Naxx as well. In terms of pure dps potential, BiS sword vs BiS dagger is around equal (thanks to Death's Sting being so crazy good) but the way encounters are being played currently and their nature, sword is def. stronger, not to talk about trash.
But it makes sense to have dagger rogues in your guild as well to make use of those dagger gear 🙂
Plus, a good dagger rogue finds his way
stable vector
I just always envision rogues to have daggers, swords are more of a warrior thing for me. Also i like pvping a lot so i like how daggers play in that too 😄
plush vigil
I find daggers to be pretty fun on aq trash
Trying to weave in the backstabs before bugs explode
desert hazel
they are. I love playing daggers. but if you compare it, sword rogues make more dmg, even more on alliance side
desert hazel
me too but thats mostly because of the different skill and experience
plush vigil
Yeah it just comes down to cheating out dmg instead of doing mechanics sometimes
stable vector
Sorry this is more of a general question but at about what level does SM Cath is do-able at least?
desert hazel
I just prefer dagger gameplay and as @stable vector said, it's dope in pvp as well. (don't underestimate Hemo though. especially in group pvp it can really shine, as well as SF-Support)
stable vector
For dps rogue ofc
desert hazel
no boost? dunno, too late. I think at around 40ish? but I'm really just guessing
ask a mage to boost
worth it
plush vigil
On ouro for example I pop evasion offensively to maximize my usage od ad and bf
desert hazel
these are things I mean with skill and experience.
I dont see any downside for us on Huhuran. then it's already getting tighter 😄
I bet you find yourself quite often pushing that salty little SS keybind
that hurts :X
and having really bad tanks (like I do) is pushing it off limits
plush vigil
Our main tank is great
desert hazel
Nice!
plush vigil
Offtanks can be 
tho
desert hazel
our tanks are really cool dudes but either drunk, stoned or just not focused 😄
plush vigil
That's our offtanks
desert hazel
my record tanking Vael was over 20 seconds (yay... that's what you want right lol)
plush vigil
Evasion tanking at it's finest
desert hazel
even with lip trick I have never had a single vael try where I could just push
I'm using vael just as an example to symbolize how bad they play. it's the same with every boss
plush vigil
Next week i wiped the same pug group by grabbing aggro on vael tho 
desert hazel
hahaha
plush vigil
You will find the worst tanks in zg
desert hazel
hey, you're not a real rogue if you haven't done it at least once 😄
plush vigil
There was this MT that generated so little threat i had to pause for 5 seconds after pressing one backstab
desert hazel
20s are amazing for me. I can go full ham as I typically can tank every boss myself if necessary
I was never really buffed in ZG or AQ20 but have full 99s there just because I can ignore our tanks being bad
plush vigil
I think i got a hakkar 99 without trying
The doom soundtrack started playing on boss pull and I went full ham
Also was hyped by too much red bull
desert hazel
😄
desert hazel
well it's a bit different in our guild
we have 20 people who know what they're doing
and 20 ... let's not talk about it
plush vigil
Honestly we had the same issue
And it became apparent in aq40 where carrying the other 20 became much harder
desert hazel
we have AQ clear since 2 weeks... took us a while.
It's ok, we're a guild with people only from one country and a tiny one too so it's rather hard to find enough good people under that premise but it's huge fun when it comes to the community events
totally worth it
ingame we will never shine though
which is a bit depressing for the 20 strong ones from time to time XD
the good thing is, if you get your 99s, you know you delivered lol
plush vigil
Well the 20 strong ones waste gold on consumes and buffs
But over time ppl got better due to class leads actually caring about them
desert hazel
what else would I waste money otherwise. that's fine. People complain about it but I found out with no effort you make shitloads of money. I spend 5-10 minutes in the AH a day and make around 500g a week. that can be a lot more if you want to so I really dont complain about my investment for the raid or the respec costs between PvP/Raiding, gold is no real issue I'd say
It's just weird when you progress, get your WBs, get your consumables to find out, you could dish out more dmg without some of it just because you dont have to constantly stop fighting because of threat issues lol
that's really demotivating
desert hazel
sure, thats no problem. just not as strong as sword currently
and nobody wants anything below 99 right ^^
signal ember
Yeah but I go for daggers because there's no one in guild that plays daggers so I get first dibs on it for pve and PvP.
I just forgot to get my dmf buff last night so I can't have it for next reset
desert hazel
happens. I secured it just late yesterday
I am dagger as well and I love it
we have 2 dagger, 5 sword. that's fine
signal ember
3 swords and me as daggers. The other rogues tried to push me into sword but I surprised them by my performance on last run as I didn't die.
desert hazel
damn DS doesn't want to drop 😄 it has to, fast, need it, want it and i get it 100% if it drops now
signal ember
Having lot of GNPP and LIP helped. Afking on trash too, especially on the way to cthun.
Yeah no DS yet but like all but 1 run had dark edge drop.
signal ember
So at this point I think a hunter is going to get it for PvP....
As most warriors have BRE.
signal ember
But even if DS drop, I think a fury warrior is going to get it which is fine depending on SL release.
desert hazel
I would gquit if our furies would get DS
marble dune
Pink parses only 👺👺👺
signal ember
We hadn't had a single drop of lok for us. Basically a meme for our balance druid that been trying to get it.
desert hazel
that's the spirit @marble dune and you already achieved it anyway 🙂
My wife (priest) made a fair bid below the core druids but they gambled, tried to outplay each other and in the end she got it. we laughed our ass off 😄
marble dune
I’d riot if fury gets DS
signal ember
Like I said, not going to cry over 15 years old loot.
desert hazel
nah you're right but there's no reason for the guild to make dick moves
signal ember
Plus SL release is soon.tm so won't be around for that so may as well let someone who can use it.
desert hazel
yeah thats fine. I probably wont play retail ever again, not really interested. on the other hands, after a 10yr break I thought I look into classic for 2 weeks ans leave again but ... yeah thats history
signal ember
Yeah I definitely would be back for tbc if SL doesn't deliver so not total loss.
Plus our fury warriors have ACLG so it's going to benefits them just as much for rogues.
desert hazel
but they have access to more than a dagger rogue 🙂
raven snow
I quit retail and deleted my battlenet acc. Best way to quit
bronze crystal
@desert hazel my Liege, I am requesting you again to share your wisdom. I currently own CTS + maladath. If I was given the chance to get my hands on deathsting, should I consider switching to daggers ? (OH then being the AQ20 one for starters.) Thank you for the help 🕵️
desert hazel
hahaha dude @bronze crystal what an intro 😄
It's a really tough question and I partially have to do what I really dislike, I have to push it into the "it highly depends on your taste" corner.
right now, theoretically, dagger can be as good as swords full BiS which would give you options to pick any depending on your taste.
To make it a bit less greasy, let me bring up some thoughts about that decision.
-
sword benefits more of both T0.5 and T2.5 which is the current meta
-
sword is easier to play, less positioning, easier energy pooling with T0.5 and in general
-
sword is dope to cleave
-
AQ40 bosses are more comfortable to play as sword, as dagger you regularly have to dump SS because of positioning or movement issues
-
sword opens Hemo PvP which is really nice in group pvp where sustain and support (CPs) is king
-
dagger is more unique, less dagger rogues out there
-
dagger excels when it comes to both short burst demand and longer lasting stable fights with good uptime.
-
dagger has a more interesting rota, even more with T0.5 imo
-
dagger perfectly synergizes with Renataki's in both PvE and PvP (sword as well but for dagger it feels more natural)
-
dagger pvp is amazing in open world scenarios or in smaller groups where burst and cooldowns are king
now let's have a slightly more strategic view on it.
Naxx is rather near, whatever that means, let's integrate it in our thoughts.
as dagger you have less competition for the only naxx dagger you'd worry with DS in your pocket: Kingsfall (Kel'Thuzad)
that is a huge plus as this dagger is amazing and won't be a regular visitor in your loot table
On the other hand, sword will stay the stronger build overall with new amazing swords in Naxx and T3 set bonuses that potentially (we will see in reality) supports the sword gameplay slightly better, especially the 8set
you see, it's a close call but hope it helps a bit. I love both but decided to stay dagger as I love it and for raid lineup balance
plush vigil
btw does kingfall lose it's unique status in bc?
desert hazel
nah stays unique afaik
in BC the first competitive dagger is from karazhan demon dude on the roof iirc
that's one hell of a dagger though, i remember how it changed my pvp game 🙂
bronze crystal
several options from heroics & exalted reps are ranked higher than kingsfall on shadowpanther
@desert hazel how many resistance potions from each type and elixirs / buffs / (flasks?) would you advise us to have in stock when P6 hits ?
desert hazel
several options from heroics & exalted reps are ranked higher than kingsfall on shadowpanther
@bronze crystal can you show me? i see kingsfall on top for both PvE and PvP (which it is during all of classic)
@desert hazel how many resistance potions from each type and elixirs / buffs / (flasks?) would you advise us to have in stock when P6 hits ?
@bronze crystal it really depends on your server and environment.
I dont care much about it as my wife is helping me out a lot with consumables like frost protection, mongoose, buff food and shit. so I might be a bit spoiled in that regards. I provide her crystals/bars in return.
What I suggest is to have enough mats ready for Naxx entry depending on your rep level with Argent Dawn (I will be revered as I'm too lazy to grind to exalted) and all mats for T3 as they will become a lot more expensive shirtly before and during P6, that's quite clear no matter what server you're on.
I also suggest to stack a bit of Frost Resi but you won't need as many as NR or Fire before as only one boss really needs them.
Stack your typical buff food and consumables as prices will go up. How many really depends on your consumption.
I stack cured rugged hides and mats for it as the price for those will rise and you need plenty of them for T3 and eventually for your frost resi gear (not sure we'll need it, I remember how everyone expected huhuran/visci to need tons of NR... now we all play it without any)
Stack no-/low-risk items, everything you'll need anyway or you know you can get rid of it anytime with some benefits such as consumables, T3 crafting material and enchanting mats
as I'm a lazy fuck and never grind, I invest in the AH atm and make around 500g earnings per week with <45 min effort with exactly those materials I need anyway. I started with zero and now I have everything I want and keep trading with the excess materials to make money. 2 birds ..
bronze crystal
I farmed reputation, attunement, frost gear mats, T3 mats, and now I am stacking up herbs and resistance pots like crazy, around 100 frost pots, 100 shadow pots, 50 nature pots, 50 fire pots, 50 arcane pots, 200 mongoose and other buffs, 10 Flasks of Titan
am I overreacting here ? I expect consummables to melt like crazy
and the prices to go up also
desert hazel
You are right. Nice you habe the discipline to do so. You will for sure benefit from it
bronze crystal
I was told a complete naxx run on farm consummes around 20-30 resistance pots
now imagine being in a dad guild
how long the progress will be >_<
plush vigil
Don't think the content will require that many mats
marble dune
@bronze crystal lol im on the literal opposite boat
currently a non human dagger rogue up for kingsfall/ds
but i convinced my guild to let me go swords for naxx, giving up DS
swords > daggers for parsing, especially in naxx
desert hazel
thats true but its just parsing and you can get your 99s with dagger too
marble dune
99s isnt enough
gotta be 99.9
fights like thaddeus where you cant backstab half the fight
will suck for daggers
same with loatheb
desert hazel
yeah agree. but I would never quit dagger for that reason. it's not gimp, so all cool
marble dune
hemo is also better for all 1v1 match ups except mages
bronze crystal
What is the math behind 20 to 30 pots?
@desert hazel Loatheb supposed to cost 3 shadow pots per head on a successfull down, fire on horsemen, nature on thaddius, arcane on the adds of gothik and frost on saph/KT, assuming there is one wipe here and there, it adds up to this number
Elixir of Poison Resistance (10) – Spider trash
Greater Arcane Protection Potion (5) – Gothik
Greater Fire Protection Potion (10) – Faerlina, Four Horsemen
Greater Frost Protection Potion (15) – Sapphiron, Kel’Thuzad
Greater Nature Protection Potion (5) – Thaddius
Greater Shadow Protection Potion (15) – Loatheb, Sapphiron
Heavy Runecloth Bandage (5) – Loatheb
plush vigil
Or you just burst them down without protection potions 
marble dune
Tbh just buy as many as you can
Prices will 100% go up for all consumes across the board when naxx is announced
desert hazel
yes. the best selling point will be before phase 6 and between the first 2 IDs
plush vigil
Guilds will probably stack pots ahead of time tho
plucky nymph
ez farm at least
desert hazel
My wife is close to 900. I luckily can ignore those 😅
steel shale
Q: Subt Hemo Rogue - MH should be slower then OH, but does OH speed matter? Lets say MH is 2.8 Speed, does it matter if OH has 2.7 or 2.0? So far I just check that OH is quicker then MH and then my next priority is highest DPS as possible.
desert hazel
yeah thats fine. I prefer faster OH for 2 reasons. 1) uptime in PvP is rather short, better having that extra oh hit go through than not 2) and this is more important, poison
but whatever OH increases your dmg, go for it
in PvP generally, MH is super important and OH is just nice
hushed laurel
gratz!
desert hazel
gratz!
@hushed laurel Thank you 🙂 quite a ride
hushed laurel
only like... 2 rogues are in front of me for my Dsting, though a tank might nab one before me, dunno
marble dune
[DISGUSTINGG
desert hazel
Yes! Thats totally not ok
Hey lets welcome my biggest critique. @gentle hound
He is not only a world class hunter but the one rogue who fucks me up raid by raid and finally joined our little community here ;-)
He is too shy to brag but he's an amazing twink in 'my' dad guild but a great leader of his own guild.
gentle hound
Thank you for the kind invitation. Absolutely glad to be here. @desert hazel I'll expect that you'll stand a chance next week with that little addition to your collection 😘
signal ember
Not much of difference between 15 agi and crus for offhand eh?
feeling cheap tbh.
Actually, I do have enough air of essences...just missing the shard.
desert hazel
its really close but I suggest Agi. it has the better avg dps, is more stable and in the current content with quite some encounters where you'd waste crusader uptime anyway, agi just is your better bet
I was also thinking about +5 on DS but decided to test crusader first to see how it actually plays with darkmantle. haven't had that as I use +15 agi on my OH
signal ember
Yeah I went for 15 agi as I realized my guild give out enchanting mats
desert hazel
it's not too expensive is it
signal ember
air of essence is like 30g each and im poor as F after buying consumes for my cursed aq run
ran off the cliff into trash after 1st boss in AQ and thats after me getting 4 DMT and SF buffs because of this mage kept catching me
so I think I spent like 150g on summon and buff
desert hazel
ah that sucks, sorry to hear man :)
I am poor af too but started to do some daytrading, so I am part of the reason why essence of air are so fucked up expensive on our server hahaha
anyway, still worth it, I never think about money for enchants, it's just something I have prepared for the items I want except that gawddayum ZG idol :X
signal ember
Yeah I still need the ZG idol so the rogue doll are going for 100g average
desert hazel
i need 2 idols and 1 doll für T2.5 but i'll manage that eventually. I dont yet have the pants anyway, just the head and technically the shoulders but we lack AQ40 idols (sun)
runic lance
So I have a stupid question, are Gloves of Holy Might good to use in Naxx or will I just end up using AQ gloves instead? Asking cuz I've had a pair for like 8 months holdin on to em just incase they were needed for it.
gentle hound
The gloves from Sartura should behave superior even without Hakkar Buff. 20 Agi +28 Str + 1% hit > 1% Crit + 50 AP
If you are lacking those, the gloves of Holy might might come handy
runic lance
Excellent, thank you. I'll hold on to em until I can get those gloves from Sartura
gentle hound
They might actually be better than T1 Gloves for Naxx but I'll have to sim that.
marble dune
what are you doing in naxx wearing T1 gloves
gentle hound
A sim on my character (without world buffs) shows that the gloves of holy might are slightly better than T1 against undead targets, this nullifies if I would have Blessing of Kings. With world buffs the gloves of holy might are worse. I consider them to be quite useless.
what are you doing in naxx wearing T1 gloves
@marble dune If I am not wrong then these are the 2nd best gloves which you can get as a Swordie. Maybe you were not lucky and did not get Sarturas gloves.
desert hazel
I dont see how Gloves of might shall be competitive. maybe in a scenario without world buffs or any buffs at all and where it does not kill any set bonus or anything but how realistic is that at the stage of naxx?
I bet there is a scenario but it's not realistic that it would matter much in said scenario
I like the idea though @runic lance
good thought right there, the question is completely legit but I think it's really gimp
runic lance
Thanks for the info guys, appreciate it
signal ember
Not having to worry about T1 gloves when I got ACLG
Well, I do have them but its just in bank for sword time
undone zodiac
Hey guys im sword spec and i got the zg MH and miras on the oh
i also have the dagger from hakkar, should i wear that on the OH instead of miras
signal ember
I'd just run mirah myself, the sword proc from mirah makes up for the dps difference imo.
desert hazel
Your main concern should be your MH not your oh in that setup
ZG mh is really bad for rogues
ZG oh is nice tho
signal ember
Yeah OH will get you moving for a while if you're unlucky with sword drop for offhand
[Maladath, Runed Blade of the Black Flight] off broodlord but what race are you as well
I would try to do much of ony as you can for viskag or cts in bwl
bronze crystal
Hello again
I have this, what would you advise to equip ?
Considering renataki + zandalar shoulders provide +20 AP
gentle hound
Do you have the other 4 pieces of T2.5? If not, then equip Zandalar Madcap Mantle + Renataki. The choice of the 2nd trinket depends on your gear. In my case I use BhB as 2nd trinket if I am not world buffed because it sims better on me than HoJ. If I am world buffed I use HoJ instead because of my crit cap.
somber maple
If you're daggers and crit capped Renetaki/ Royal Seal might also be an option
ocean trellis
best race for pvp?
gentle hound
Alliance: Dwarf, Gnome and even Human have beneficial racials for PvP. Horde: Undead or Orc.
desert hazel
fucking human racial!
but that's a rogue thing 🙂
I always play undead. love my wotf and would miss it too much but orc definitely has it's appeal, just more rng
signal ember
Undead rogue underrated imo.
plucky nymph
Very true
desert hazel
I want cow rogues 😦
runic lance
What should my BF/Darkmantle combo set look like as daggers rn, I have aclg as well. just no AQ daggers yet 😦
desert hazel
standard reply without having more intel would be: darkmantle Head, Chest, Shoulders, Boots. enjoy
gl on Death's Sting!
runic lance
Thank you, what other info would you need? I currently only have bf belt, pants, boots, shoulders. have mds ring plus don julios, strikers mark, perds/alcors, HoJ n BHB. I also have ZG shoulders and chest, working on renataki's
desert hazel
yes then definitely above setup
darkmantle is quite fun for a while but full deathdealer can't come fast enough for me tbh. RNG just isnt my thing
signal ember
Good way to start my morning
2 lotus in a 24 hour span.....and it tooke like 15 years to get my first black lotus....
desert hazel
my wife gets black lotus like fat kids their happy meals
she's well over 10k gold
and I'm sitting at 300 lol
toxic mantle
if i were to mostly do pvp and a little raiding on the weekends would CB/Hemo spec be best ? or is it only viable in pvp ?
toxic mantle
well then what is viable for pvping and raiding both?
gentle hound
You can do fine with a PvE build in PvP, but you will always miss Preparation.
PvP Specs as imp. Sprint Dagger or Hemo/CB do lack Weapon Expertise and Adrenaline Rush which are crucial if you want to dps.
past shell
quick question as i've found it hard to find a good source of info
anyone know how much stealth + the darkmantle boots give?
seems nearly as good as atleast 5/5 talent
past shell
ty i'm a nub it seems
plucky nymph
np bud
past shell
Thank you, what other info would you need? I currently only have bf belt, pants, boots, shoulders. have mds ring plus don julios, strikers mark, perds/alcors, HoJ n BHB. I also have ZG shoulders and chest, working on renataki's
@runic lance try get Boots of the shadowflame as it seems like they get disenchatned lately and get the aq20 set, will help you out while you wait for DS
darkmantle shoulders, chest,bracers and head seems better
with regards to other loot, either get belt of never ending agony, which is noramlly super contested, or drop DM shoulders when you get tier 2.5for darkmantle belt as the 1% crit from BF isn't great if you get full WBs
first 2.5 you should aim for is shoulders and legs
desert hazel
I wear 2.5 shoulders since I swapped dm hands with aclg.
Best darkmantle slots are head+chest+boots+hands but as dagger without DS you should take shoulders instead of hands
desert hazel
yep. ACLG is set till DS
sure, weapon skill is a flaw of the classic design but thats ok, it's kinda charming isnt it
hushed laurel
im a fan of weapon skill as a concept, i wish it was spread out more amongst races though, or on certain talent trees for other classes
slim current
I got a question. Slow or fast OH for leveling?
I got Krol Blade as MH. I dont know if I should buy Hanzo Blade (1,50) or Assasination Blade (2,70)? WIll put Crusader enchant on both.
What is best?
signal ember
doesn't really matter but get mirah sword, its a chain in scholo.
once you hit 60.
personally, i'd do fast monkey or tiger green boe sword.
somber maple
Fast OH for poison and sword spec procs and iirc HOJ is also not ppm but based on actual hits, so profits from a fast oh, too. And yes, Mirahs is bis before Hakkari OH/ Maladath if not human.
desert hazel
During leveling just ignore OH. Take whatever has better stats. If same stats and even dps go for faster OH.
MH is very important for leveling speed but OH is neglectable
ancient phoenix
I just rotated OH while leveling to keep the major weap skills maxed until I got Mirah's
somber maple
If he got Krol already he's not far from 55 which is when you get Mirahs, sooo...
ancient phoenix
So not really worth spending gold
desert hazel
If he got Krol already he's not far from 55 which is when you get Mirahs, sooo...
@somber maple ^ this actually
signal ember
Perd in MH for pvp with 5+.
marble dune
why perd in mh for pvp?
plucky nymph
Better enchant likely.
marble dune
i hated using my perds
the proc break saps if you try to do sap->cs tricks
or blind->ea
gouge->ea
etc
signal ember
Perd has 5+ dmg, pugio 15+ agi.
Im a gambler, what can I say but I don't do sap cs tricks
but Im going to use dragonblade for oh if Im pvping.
if Im pairing up with pugino
marble dune
should just +5 to pugio and MH it for pvp and pve
i would MH dragonfang blade over perds
stats too good
perds has no stats
signal ember
Im just going to keep 15 agi on it and slap 5+ on death sting if I get it
signal ember
Nothing like a good clutch with rocket helm to overcome 1v2 hunter/frost mage.
1% hp after killing hunter, rocket charged helm the mage and bandaged, two shot backstab.
wish I had it on stream
desert hazel
hunter/mage works really well as dagger rogue
if you have engi and they dont or dont use it well
it's a breeze and depending on how the hunter places his frost trap your frost reflector can beat both the mage and the hunter with one use
And rocket helmet is fucking crazy OP in 1vX situations
Hunter/Mage as Hemo can be quite hard though I'd say
what makes 1vX kinda easy though typically is the behaviour of your opponents when they're teamed up as they underestimate you and play stupid. like they forgot everything they learnt from duels
bronze crystal
Good evening all
MinMax question
I have 5/5 T2.5
what should I equip between : renataki, blackhand, Hand of Justice ?
assuming the +20 AP bonus of zandalari set is lost
desert hazel
first: gratuliere bruder! without more intel, I'd say Renataki's. I guess you run Renatakis/ES
Renataki's is still dope
in the short kill time meta we're running in classic, renataki's is insane
I still use Renataki's instead of ES
paired with DFT
just love what it offers
bronze crystal
ok clear, i got kind of addicted to renataki
unfortunately i never got my hands on DFT
thank you for the cheering
to be honest it's not that hard for rogues to get full t2.5
not so much competition
(in opposition to DFT)
desert hazel
ok clear, i got kind of addicted to renataki
@bronze crystal I so feel you man
I have 3/5 T2.5, I only bid on it to prevent low bids
signal ember
es/renataki is very solid choice if you can use both of the trinkets in a fight
desert hazel
and it's still amazing when you need on demand CP/energy such as stunlock crew at sartura or cthun
toxic mantle
is swords=daggers in pvp?
desert hazel
I'd say so. really hard to compare. they play really different
and have different focus
Overall I'd say Hemo might be stronger in terms of "having more situations where Hemo wins easier"
but thats highly debatable
and there's stuff like SF/support builds für BGs where its again really hard to say but at least there you can better compare sword with dagger. It's niche so dont focus on that though if you dont intend toiplay in a highly dedicated bg premade
marble dune
daggers = pug stomping noobs
hemo = better vs higher skilled/geared opponents (except vs mages)
desert hazel
Its simplified, obviously, but sums it up well
hushed laurel
signal ember
Probably will quit classic for a bit now to focus on SL.
desert hazel
😦
marble dune
ill try to play both
classic doesnt require much time commitment to raid
3-5 hours of prog the first week, add in 2 hrs a week for wbuffs
desert hazel
I'm a 40yo dad in a worse than dad-guild doing dad-guild-stuff, classic is fine for me 😄
desert hazel
true
somber maple
Way back when <3
stuck finch
t1 belt 
somber maple
Can't even remember if I even went for Renetaki first time round, sure as hell didn't go for darkmantle
desert hazel
from the title I can imagine the background story 🙂
bleak badger
Seal fate rogue. If i end up at 4 CP do i use a finisher or backstab to 5 with the chance of wasting a CP?
desert hazel
I'd say "dont play SF" but if you really want to, it's your decision. Then typically go for 4 CP finisher, even more if full world buffed where chances are high to build up crit CPs
bleak badger
Yea thougt so, im stuck with daggers and i think seal fate is more fun. Would u still recomend dagger combat?
desert hazel
you can play SF, it is fun, it is not viable in terms of what you contribute to raid dps
it's clearly, by quite a high degree, worse than combat dagger in pretty much every probable scenario
yes, that is unfortunate
but it's the truth :X
bleak badger
Hmm wowhead guide doesnt agree but i guess i try it out and look over some logs ty for the help :)