heh nice
#classic-discussion
robust moon
calm temple
I'm going to get it at 53
robust moon
on shazzrah only gauntels go for 140 xD
plucky nymph
Paying over 10g a leather is a scam, IMO.
robust moon
depends on server
calm temple
I paid 6.5
robust moon
and ah flippers
calm temple
so 143 in total
got the cured rugged hide for about 25
and the rugged leather came from my stash
plucky nymph
All good if you don't pay over 10.
robust moon
on my server (shazzrah) that would be a dream
maiden cave
if its gonna stay shit, then just dont get it
6pc SC works fine with cad + truestrike
it can just be a pain to get (SC cap + SC tunic)
robust moon
it gonna drop in couple days, but even on "normal" days I haven't seen it below 13g
13-14g is "normal" price here
maiden cave
I'm happy I got my set, but I didn't pay that crazy prices for it
plucky nymph
"Works fine"
Yeah there was a point where each leather was fucking 20g...
nope, no thanks.
calm temple
most people get 6pc sc with devilsaur
plucky nymph
Dunno how you know that, but it's an easy option for sure.
calm temple
thats what most people should do is what i was trying to say
calm temple
I mean, I was going to go farm the Devilsaur myself
but I figured that getting it as early as I can would result in faster leveling and faster devilsaur farming
plucky nymph
Armor doesn't make much DPS difference unless you are going from bad gear to something good.
aaaaaaaaaand the spreadsheet crashed, excellent, haha.
Shadowcraft DPS
Shadowcraft 8pc
- 670.63
Shadowcraft 6pc + Truestrike + Cadaverous Chest
- 687.90
Shadowcraft 6pc + Devilsaur
- 690.78
Gotta get that... ~3dps.
maiden cave
or maybe they want to have it for PvP (which its a great set for too) - or to have it when you replace a few SC pieces and swap over to NS/BF - or maybe they're not going 6pc SC
tons of reasons to get devilsaur, but don't pay stupid amounts for it
plucky nymph
You're gonna have to wait for quite a few pieces of NS but if you don't care about being literally perfect, as you should, just do w/e.
¯_(ツ)_/¯
exotic trellis
and Id rather just go farm gold to buy devilsaur
plucky nymph
Farm gold IN Scholo.
maiden cave
how many times can you shrug
plucky nymph
It's rather annoying.
drowsy phoenix
truestrike is ezpz wym
plucky nymph
If you don't have a group that is there for TS specifically.
Wdym wym?
Join UBRS for 1st boss
loot does not drop
Uhhh, gotta go to ONY guys...
heh.
Bye.
drowsy phoenix
that's why you go for felstriker too obviously
plucky nymph
About the same fucking droprate for me it seems.
drowsy phoenix
my first 2-3 runs, TS dropped and I was the only one that needed them
plucky nymph
w3rD
copper belfry
is it worth stacking Hit% past 9?
im at 9% with eye of rend, but mask just dropped, itd put me at 11
plucky nymph
Not over 1% Crit / 20 AP / 10 AGI.
Every point of hit until 25% has value still though.
copper belfry
so eye of rend is better in this case?
plucky nymph
They're about the same but Eye is better at Hit Cap.
copper belfry
thanks!
gritty goblet
@plucky nymph what's your gear like mize? O.o
plucky nymph
Same crap as always.
shadow tapir
Pvp daggers is so fun
red badger
I just won rend OH, should I keep thrash blade in my MH, or use mirahs for MH?
shadow tapir
Thrash
red badger
should I even use rend OH, or keep mirah in my OH until I get the rend MH?
shadow tapir
Im gonna assume Mirahs is better because of stats but Im not 100% on that
is there a huge DPS difference?
red badger
1.4 dps difference on the weapon
plucky nymph
Never equip Dal'rends OH without the MH.
red badger
Eye of Rend or Mask of the Unforgiven if I already have 8% hit without unforgiven?
plucky nymph
This does nothing without the MH.
Drop more hit, Eye over Mask.
waow, +7 DEF.
100 armor!!
half hamlet
i got Perdition's Blade yesterday. Which OH is preRaid BiS ?
shadow tapir
Bonescraper I think?
signal ember
fast dagger
shadow tapir
Thats what Shadowpanther has anyway
signal ember
There's the distracting blade on tuesday
old stone
classic loot sucks ass, I got one piece of raid loot from 4 resets
signal ember
1.30 or 1.40 with + daggers
Yeah welcome to the actual grind
instead of buying loot
half hamlet
ye thats what im aiming for on tuesday. just needed to know what to equip until then:D
signal ember
old stone
wtb bgs
old stone
most of my gear was pvp during vani;;a
signal ember
i was in MC/bwl
old stone
thrash/miras forever
versed cedar
I got a question: is it worth to get ACLG + diremaul dagger with +dagger and the waist with +dagger?
so you got +16 dagger extra?
or is weapon skill not that good over a certain level
maiden cave
the glancing penalty reduction caps out at 308
you don't gain much from +weapon skill beyond that
whether its worth it or not depends on the other pieces of gear you have available in those slots, I imagine
getting 308 is very good though, obviously
versed cedar
so getting one of the 3 mentioned above should be a good thing although I got to 310 then (with weaponskill talent)
exotic trellis
WAY too much weapon skill
you need MAX one of them
ACLG is good enough
and if you're considering ACLG I'm assuming you're already raiding
versed cedar
yes, yesterday was first raid
cedar jewel
You’ll use that till naxx at least
exotic trellis
yea then snipe a perdy and CHT with ACLG
versed cedar
we got 6 bosses down, so there is a real chance to get them
as I cant raid on every raid day, I hope for garr dagger for the start
and im the only dagger rogue, so if they droppt im good 🙂
exotic trellis
well a huntard's gonna want CHT
hope you get perdy first kill
It SHOULD drop and SHOULD be yours
versed cedar
"stat second" is a rule in my guild
cedar jewel
Grab darrowspike as an oh (quest dagger)
versed cedar
so they already granted first need to me 🙂
exotic trellis
Well if he's still in a lot of prebis distracting isnt the worst thing
probably easier to farm than bonescraper
Mainhands pre raiding are ass though
versed cedar
i got barman atm as mh
not much dropluck for me so far, but barman is good as a mainhand
darrowspike looks nice as well, but will take me a bit of time to get it
cedar jewel
If you want to be efficient you could respec to swords and use thrash blade/mirah’s song till you get the gloves and either garr/rag dagger
Darrowspike is basically the followup from mirah’s song
So you can get mirahs song and darrowspike by doing scholo>strat ud>scholo
maiden cave
do you really like darrowspike as an offhand compared to bonescraper/scarlet kris? zero stats, underwhelming proc
dagger rogue should just be farming strat UD a ton hoping for bonescraper, its that good
versed cedar
my problem is that i dont have the time for farming stuff a lot :/
maiden cave
(and for raids it works as a MH too, if you check sims)
cedar jewel
Its easier to get than bonescrapper
So yes
As a melee class your first job is to get the easy obtainable weapons = quest weapons
versed cedar
bonescrapper is oh only right? cause it has a terrible max dmg for mh, or am im wrong ?
cedar jewel
For swords that’s thrash blade and mirahs song
For daggers that’s darrowspike and no mh (that i know of)
versed cedar
i got thrash blade and rends oh atm, but the dagger playstyle gets me more
barman dagger is an easy farmable mh
with high max dmg for start
and you can solo barman
maiden cave
@versed cedar if you check the DPS sheets, for a raid setting, it still performs very well in MH
outdoing barman
versed cedar
kk thx so far
ah lol, i already had a look at it, but its kinda complicated for me
so i need to enter just my gear into the sheet to calculate ?
or is there a tutorial?
maiden cave
you do need to enter your gear and all, using the dropdown boxes - and it doesnt play well with any spreadsheet editors except WPS
maiden cave
the bonescraper ever so slightly outperforms barman in MH despite having lower backstab damage since it has higher white damage
and more procs
versed cedar
hm... okay
im editing the sheet in excel, but i dont have any drop down menus 🤔
trying it on my private laptop, my company device blocks stuff in excel
maiden cave
yeah as I said, its shit at working with other editors that arent WPS
its a shitshow
versed cedar
with libre office its also working so far
thorn vector
Heartseeker+bonescraper no?
maiden cave
heartseeker is for crazy people with too much money
versed cedar
servers are too young for cheap crafted items
neat sun
Is there any way to lower your resist change on pickpocketing?
Because currently, pick pocket farming just doesn't seem worth it.
tough pilot
@neat sun spell hit or whatever
If you have the luxury of building a set. Which will prob be hard
maiden cave
I have not seen anything to prove that spell hit % affects PP success rate, most people seem to just think it just has a base resist rate
if spell hit % actually works, that'd be awesome, but I don't think anyone has tested it proper
sharp grotto
There’s plenty of dagger peeps who run that
shut crane
dagger choices are kinda lame atm tho
winged crystal
and with no pvp, not as much reason to run dagger
tough pilot
I mean why would spell hit not impact a... Spell? That's what pickpocketing is hence it can be resisted etc.
I don't think anyone can prove it on current classic since no one prob has the luxury of making the set or really going out of their way for it.
sharp grotto
What you mean no reason to run dagger @winged crystal out dmg swords to lol
winged crystal
not as much != no reason
sharp grotto
I swapped to daggers at 51 when I got barman shanker
sharp grotto
Why? I barely saw any difference in dmg
winged crystal
it's the play style
I am very much used to chain pulling, extra mobs coming in here and there. with daggers that just gets a bit much
sharp grotto
Even solo style now I like daggers... pull 2-3 mobs and kidney / BS with bladefurry is nice
winged crystal
pretty much only stealth for humanoids so I can pick pocket them at this point
yeah but the other 2m you are just waiting for gouge/bs
sharp grotto
No lol
winged crystal
so no BF or aynthing. you open on a mob and then what?
sharp grotto
I saw hardly no difference in SS dmg haha... just a small portion
winged crystal
just white dmg it to death?
sharp grotto
And actually yea I ca. Get 1-2 CP and SND an watch the mobs fall over
And a lot easier for wpvp when lvling when daggers to... lol
calm temple
you're leveling combat daggers?
winged crystal
not trying to come off negative, genuinely interested. leveling daggers just seems awful
tough pilot
Other rogues when they realize you don't have to level cookie cutter 
calm temple
that i would never do
sharp grotto
i did
winged crystal
1 mob gets pulled without stealth and you are basically just auto attacking 100-0
sharp grotto
was 60 2 weeks ago as combat daggers
sharp grotto
yea lol just bc its not the ame spec as others lvling dnt mean its bad
winged crystal
there's a difference of can't be done, and just not optimal. and there's nothing wrong with that
that's why i'm asking questions and getting some info lol
sharp grotto
i have any answer you can give
i played daggers the same as i did swords
barely even went stealth
unless i knew multi mobs were coming
winged crystal
I'm pretty sure I leveled with daggers in vanilla lol
sharp grotto
so i could cheap 1
winged crystal
so you just use SS with daggers a lot?
sharp grotto
yea
winged crystal
did you take imp ss?
sharp grotto
theres never a build where i dont take that
winged crystal
or just deal with the 45 energy?
sharp grotto
unless Hemo
winged crystal
well I wouldn't take it for a dedicated dagger build I don't think
sharp grotto
but im not
i take it... 3 imp gouge 2 imp SS
as dedicated daggers
so i can get imp BS
winged crystal
still better than 3/5 reflexes imo so yeah
sharp grotto
its better than 2% dodge
winged crystal
I haven't respecd once, but damn do I miss imp stealth
sharp grotto
yea i only respec at 51 like i said when i got barman
winged crystal
brd right?
signal ember
Off Plugger
signal ember
Really? Even at 58?
sharp grotto
yea
just use the beer to make the adds go away
then pull him
and use cds
even at 55 i did it
just for some gold
winged crystal
i need.... levelllllsssss
but good info on the daggers. you could play 0/0/0 and lvl to 60 i'm sure. or use all rank 1 spells. it's possible but doesn't mean it's great. I just like hearing about the first hand experience of doing it
winged crystal
i was extremely close to speccing hemo at 31 but never did. it took seeing other people talking about their first hand experience doing it that made me rethink
I was daggers in vanilla, I remember my perd/cht combo and it brings a tear of joy to my eyes. never got far enough for the pugio
pretty much in this for pvp as well so i'm just kinda grinding through until then
sharp grotto
i dont see a reason to be hemo atm
im staying pve spec till bgs really
in Wpvp as combat daggers i can almost beat anything just bc of cds
a cheap into AR into BS into Kidney into BS x2
lol
sharp grotto
yea i just like AR so much haha... but for sure when bgs and shit come ill be prep dags
signal ember
i mean at 60, i will probably switch to daggers
but sword is just easier to play with and im human too
so 10+ to sword is thicc
winged crystal
basically when I can start casually farming instead of mindlessly grinding
plucky nymph
Barmans+Bonescraper
signal ember
yeah
plucky nymph
You can look at the math yourself > _>
signal ember
its 2.0 so BS/Ambush damage will be thicc as f
rain jacinth
ok
signal ember
just got hookfang shanker for offhand when i get barman
plucky nymph
Baron doesn't wanna drop his cape but he dropped Bonescraper instead :3
plucky nymph
o _O
rain jacinth
ok
plucky nymph
Just global people >_>
marble dune
feels amazing man
winged crystal
banned in duel tournament. hope that's not why you farmed lol
plucky nymph
Banning effort, interesting.
marble dune
why would i care to farm a trinket for a tournament thats not even in my server?
lmao
plucky nymph
If dmg ranges/speed were normalized then DPS would be the same across the board but since the damage range isn't fixed some things do hit harder than others because math is still a thing.
sharp grotto
yea barmans range is what makes it so good
plucky nymph
Poisons are nice but they're a small part of your damage.
shut crane
i'm reading it has to do with AP calculations
plucky nymph
Reading it where? and what does "it" mean in this case?
shut crane
let me find something more substantial than a reddit post
plucky nymph
Reddit posts are fine so long they're sourced.
Weapon DPS does matter as white damage is still a very large amount of damage but without knowing the duration of the fights in question it's all kinda just juggling things.
shut crane
this was the calculation prior to 1.8
damage = base_weapon_damage + (weapon_speed * Attack Power / 14)
after 1.8 was this
normalized_damage = base_weapon_damage + (X * Attack Power / 14)
base weapon speed is 1.7 for daggers
so all daggers use 1.7 speed in that calculation
im just wondering if the current phase uses normalized weapon speeds
winged crystal
I don't know what server you're on? I was poking fun at the tourney though and not you, the banned stuff is insane. healthstones banned! rofl
plucky nymph
It's not reflected in anything in game.
¯_(ツ)_/¯
I do know that there's some weirdness with weapon speed brackets and damage calcs though.
Wil make a copy of the spreadsheet real fast and see where Barmans vs. Heartseeker is.
shut crane
im just curious really
i'd love to go get a barmans and run combat daggers
then get kicked out for taking up a debuff slot with the bleed lol
plucky nymph
Yeah that would be hilarious.
sharp grotto
its a low prio
it falls off quick
i hardly EVER see it
deep wounds over rides it i do believe
shut crane
thats good
plucky nymph
Now I just have to unfuck this math because I tabbed when I shouldn't have.
great
Barmans (Crusader-WF) + Bonescraper (Crusader-IP): 701.09
Heartseeker (Crusader-WF) + Bonescraper (Crusdaer-IP): 711.59
So about 1%.
Which is what I expected.
sharp grotto
so barman is better
plucky nymph
or the AV dagger.
When we get that.
Barman's is, if anything, very easy to get compared to Heartseeker.
Also in regard to the DMG Calcs.
As of patch 1.8, attack speed has no bearing on your primary special attacks (SS, Backstab, and Ambush). These all now use a "normalized" speed for attack power calculations. Daggers use 1.7, other 1h weapons use 2.4. So, for looking at which weapon will do the most main hand special attack damage, the sole determining factor is the damage range.
Since we're already looking at DMG ranges for what is better this doesn't change much.
Do note that this doesn't influence your white damage directly, but your Total Attack Power and the math that uses that (Special Attacks).
Man AV has some nice rewards >_>
winged crystal
i'm guessing no heartseekers because all the mats are funneling into other things?
shut crane
mostly because arcanite bars are way to expensive to make it worthwhile
plucky nymph
The leather can also be surprising in price.
But you only need 2 here.
Was thinking about the Tier.5 upgrade quests.
Where you need like...
winged crystal
yeah i'm not all up to snuff on mats and pricing. it looks like a lot but what isn't
shut crane
easy 300g on my server
plucky nymph
The gems are pretty common, the leather is cheap, and the enchanted thorium is fine.
shut crane
for the bars alone
shut crane
12?
shut crane
its kinda in the same boat. anyone competant enough to get an arcanite reaper will just get a obsidian edged blade instead
shut crane
is nightfall in game yet?
plucky nymph
Not yet IIRC.
neat sun
I need to come up with 600g ASAP ... Ideas?
neat sun
I picked up Mining - I think Thorium/Mithril might be decent
But it sucks not having an epic to farm it
plucky nymph
Phase 3
neat sun
I've made most of my gold on leather, but I'm tired of just grinding mobs with my mediocre gear
winged crystal
the entire game is grinding mobs with mediocre gear
winged crystal
so still rocking a sword that is extremely capable of raiding isn't all that bad
neat sun
I mean, when every rogue but me and one other in my guld has Vis'kag, it's bad.
winged crystal
i won't argue that's better, but it's not that bad
but that could just as well of been you be it some luck or whatever loot distro you use. give it time
neat sun
Oh, I'm not complaining that I didn't get the sword.
I'm simply saying it takes me longer to farm than others.
My gear needs a LOT of work
And I've yet to find a good farm
winged crystal
i'm not even 60 so you have that going for you
sharp grotto
so bc top end... Felstriker would be better than Barman correct?
serene prawn
and a few more questions if you dont mind
so how much hit do we actually need
cause im confused by now
is it 6 ( 5 talents + 1 )
or 9%
and also, in the 6pc shadowcraft build why is blackcrow listed instead of boomstick
maiden cave
300 weapon skill: 9%
305 weapon skill: 6%
hit % beyond that still improves your DPS, since it increases your white damage which tends to be ~50% of overall dmg (for raid rogues)
maiden cave
blackcrow vs boomstick doesn't really matter
serene prawn
i got like 12% hit currently
maiden cave
they are very close in dps
outer dirge
yea 12% is great
maiden cave
6pc SC is very strong, feel free to go for it
outer dirge
6pc SC with either cadav/true strike or 6pc + devilsaur is strong. but i think the main reason people go for 6pc SC is to avoid devilsaur cost
serene prawn
i already have devilsaur
id like to get 6pc SC
im looking at the shadowpanther bis list
outer dirge
yea it's fun to play with. go for it. i have standard pre-bis and the full t0 set and i prefer to play with SC because the energy procs are awesome
it procs off of abilities and white attacks. getting that juicy relentless + 6pc proc off of an eviscerate is glorious
serene prawn
so thats means i have to sacrifice cadv armour
to get the tunic and the helm, so i can keep devilsaur
outer dirge
6pc SC + Deilvaur, Cadav/TS, or Mask/TS are the combos you want to go for
all of them are really close in dmg
serene prawn
im full prebis non shadowcraft
MAEP is 375 vs 397
theoretically its a slight difference only?
meh ill give it a try
thanks for the info
sharp grotto
the only thing i dont like when using SC 6 pc... is losing all teh AP
lol
i lvoe looking at my 790 AP... with no epics or anything
winged crystal
thrash blade wooo lets go boys
plucky nymph
w o o
winged crystal
you win
plucky nymph
I ween!
winged crystal
crusader is out of my price range, is +4 acceptable on thrash?
plucky nymph
Yeah sure it's what I used before Crusader on Thrash+Mirah's
winged crystal
dirt cheap! awesome
proper ivy
where can i find a BiS for human rogue?
short goblet
Is there another resource other than the shadowpanther site for rogue info?
plucky nymph
Yeah wowhead.
short goblet
Ok, didn't know if it was updated/reliable, thanks!
plucky nymph
Good enough.
urban matrix
What's the latest bloodmoon sheet version?
plucky nymph
1.8
urban matrix
where can I find the latest? I only have 1.5
plucky nymph
http://www.mediafire.com/file/fg19esagjyfj3yl/RogueDPS_Bloodmoon_v.1.8.xls/file
Hosted on the utterly piece of shit website Mediafire, make sure to click the DOWNLOAD (2.53MB) button, NOTHING ELSE.
plucky nymph
seemsRight
fair carbon
What a megamind strat
plucky nymph
I need inverseHitRating.
plucky nymph
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clever kayak
hushed laurel
if you leveled at the Pserver average rate, it takes about 4.5 hours a day. but, pservers were much harder than classic is due to guess work.
midnight dew
been doing a lot of research about + weapon skill, anyone know if 310 or 315 is more worth to aim for, considering you would give up slot stats for 315 opposed to glance cap which is 310, speaking for a dagger rogue.
maiden cave
Glance cap is 308, not 310
https://github.com/magey/classic-warrior/wiki/Attack-table is all you need
I would aim for 308, but it's obviously fine to be a few points above
thorn vector
But does wpn skill affect additional stats above 300? I mean the 0.04% of hit crit etc.
Because then 315 for daggers even more effective due to additional crit rating.
Unless you can get crit% or agility on items in the same slot
sharp grotto
Anyone know if logs in classic show OH hits?
shadow tapir
For you guys asking about weapon skill
https://github.com/magey/classic-warrior/wiki/Attack-table#weapon-skill
That makes me think that 2/2 weapon expertise isnt worth it if youre a human
shadow tapir
Makes sense
Now to figure out whether distracting dagger is better than bonescraper OH
Going to assume that if its the only weapon skill then it is
sharp grotto
Yea, but only till you get aged core leather gloves
shadow tapir
Yeah
cedar jewel
Or death’s sting, depending on your luck 
shadow tapir
Well I dont really have time to raid so not looking too good for me
Doe sanyone know if its possible to stealth and loot the books in DM that can drop the Quelserrar compendium?
I know its a low drop chance but cant remember how many there are
cedar jewel
There’s one book that can spawn in 13 (i believe) different spots throughout dm
It is possible to stealth trough and loot some of those spawn points
marble dune
anyone know if +Hit is applied to Blind?
i missed a blind earlier in a duel and i have +5% hit so im wondering wtf happened
ancient phoenix
Did they use insect swarm? -2% hit
marble dune
thats a possibility
echo phoenix
soo, how much hit% are you guys going for? like when you stop , what's a nice sweet spot
wraith parcel
For Pve you need 9% total, reduced to 6% when you have weapon expertise
And then you probably have 5/5 precision, so you need 1% hit from gear
For pvp its 5% total
signal ember
Anyone farming black dragonscales? Good $$ as lock needs it for their epic mount.
maiden cave
@echo phoenix for PvP: 5%, no more. For PvE I am going for whatever pieces give me the highest possible DPS, perfectly fine if that's more hit %
I'll happily be at 10-15+ hit % if that's the highest DPS loadout for me, nothing wrong with that, hit % beyond yellow hit cap still improves your white damage.
cedar jewel
Use more hit if you are reaching your crit cap
maiden cave
that too, crit cap is a thing, but probably more an issue later
plucky nymph
Not probably, is an issue for later.
White crit cap is 29.8% (30%... come on) + your hit rating.
Yellow crit is waaaaaaay higher and not really a thing without huge modifiers from talents/ec.
wraith parcel
Why is it so low? Isnt it 100-40(glancings)-5(dodge)-miss?
Or how much miss % is it for dw?
maiden cave
DM in 1h20m
wraith parcel
I thought it was 20%, but with what miz says its 25%, i might just be wrong
wraith parcel
Then thats prob true
plucky nymph
I am looking for the vanilla tables real "quick".
From the most recent math -
Whites miss chance, dual-wielding @ 305+ is 24/25%.
@wraith parcel
In regards to the attack table default values on a target 3 level higher than you with 0% hit as a dual-wielding class.
Removing the +3% hit from the weapon skill brings the default miss chance up to 27-28%.
Fighting a boss with +5 weapon skill and 0% hit
Parry: 14% front / 0% rear
Dodge: 6%
Block: 5% front / 0% rear
Glance: 40%
Miss: 24-25%
Leftover Hit/Crit from front: 10-11%
Leftover Hit/Crit from rear: 29-30%
With the only value on the table that can be influenced by the players being Hit, increasing Hit Chance will reduce Miss Chance increasing your Leftover Hit/Crit by the amount of added Hit Chance.
and here I was thinking I wouldn't have to do this until TBC re-released > _>
plucky nymph
whoops
hushed laurel
lul
plucky nymph
cedar jewel
I was reaching +50% crit on lightshope in full t3
plucky nymph
That's nice.
cedar jewel
Had way more world buffs tho :p
plucky nymph
Yep.
hushed laurel
if i cant get a 40 man songflower tick its not really classic...owait
plucky nymph
lol
cedar jewel
As a dagger rogue right now i believe i had 29% crit
No head/songflower
Or feral aura
marble dune
this comment gave me cancer
plucky nymph
YO I JUST GOT PERD BLADE
loud tree
lmao
plucky nymph
seemsFine
shadow tapir
a dagger that white damages for as much as thrash blade lol
plucky nymph
lol
There are plenty of people denouncing Combat Dagger as a thing in general.
When it's only "bad" during the middle bit.
shadow tapir
and screw that, I want 2k ambushes
winged crystal
so what's this book from DM called that gives hit%?
signal ember
[Garona: A Study on Stealth and Treachery]
plucky nymph
winged crystal
ty, going to have to keep an eye on the AH for it
shadow tapir
Trinket though : /
plucky nymph
yeeee
plucky nymph
Imagine using an addon for the express purpose of making you sad.
marble dune
theres nothing else to do besides raid 1 day a week and farming gold lol
plucky nymph
Yeah but there are other ways of doing that
tough pilot
that addon kinda neat
ocean parrot
Did I make a big mistake making a gnome rogue instead of a human? Shiuld i reroll?
cedar jewel
Just go daggers and you’ll be fine
shadow tapir
Weapon expertise helps reduce the human advantage, youre fine
cedar jewel
Basically you’ll do less damage than a human
If both of you are swords
Unless you get yourself a maladath
ocean parrot
Ah I see
So daggers can compete with swords?
Thanks for all the advice
I hate humans
fallen panther
crude sphinx
signal ember
Doubt it
cedar jewel
Just get a friendly hunter/lock/priest to solo it for you
winged crystal
even in a regular 5 man run my dps on princess is awful. you have to run out so frequently and you can't even apply bleeds on her
raven snow
I know this has probably been discussed before. but with muggers belt coming out and distracting dagger out... is it worth as a dagger rogue to get 315 wep skill?
Assuming I have 6% hit for cap already
or should I try to stack as much hit as possible, of just go agi. I tried to use classic craft sim but they dont have +dagger skill as an option
viscid marsh
I'm also trying to figure out if I should stack +wep skill. Already have core hound gloves
raven snow
you could easily get to 320, my understanding is that wep skill increases hit chance
maiden cave
https://github.com/magey/classic-warrior/wiki/Attack-table has all the info
I would not go above 308-310
viscid marsh
yeah so if I went and got the new dagger and belt I would be at 321 wep skill
Looks to me that it should be a very small increase in dps
not sure what I should do with hit if i get that much wep skill
shadow tapir
That link shows how hit interacts with weapon skill too. It’s pretty minor after 305.
To 305 is effectively 3% hit. 305 to 315 is only 1%
Glancing blows are the big thing there
raven snow
looks like 308 is the magic number, but in reality that would be more 310 since the items give +10
raven snow
so if we have 310 wep skill and hit cap at 6%, would we be better suited to push further hit cap or stack agil
Aka can I ditch true strike shoulders and get shadowcraft/wyrmtounge
push further past hit cap*
viscid marsh
using the bloodmoon rogue spreadsheet its saying that stacking all the +dagger skill is a small increase
maiden cave
TS shoulders are very good stats-wise, compton
shadow tapir
Yeah sorry I wasn’t very specific. I believe it’s 308 skill and glancing blows are reduced to 95% and you can’t get them lower
So past that weapon skill you gain some hit, not going to be worth much
sharp grotto
hanbi question
raven snow
@maiden cave, 22 agi is much better than 22 AP though
sharp grotto
i have barman, distracting, bonesdcraper... what setup should i run lol
maiden cave
for raiding? the one without barman
raven snow
My question is should i be sacrificing agi for hit even though I am "hit cap"
maiden cave
just check in the spreadsheet
raven snow
and crit as well, like swapping eye of rend for mask to get 2% hit instead of 2% crit
maiden cave
I can guarantee that TS Shoulders will rank better dps-wise in the spreadsheet for you unless you have some weird stats
eye vs mask is whatever, it's a tiny difference, both are good
raven snow
Is there a better sim tool I can play around with other than classic craft?
maiden cave
the bloodmoon DPS spreadsheet from the rogue classic discord
raven snow
Can you share rogue classic discord?
maiden cave
viscid marsh
Hanbi can I trust bloodmoon 100%? Its telling me to go for 321 dagger skill
maiden cave
I don't think you can trust anything 100% tbh
plucky nymph
Can you trust anything 100% o _O
shadow tapir
That’s highly dependent on your other gear options too
maiden cave
I don't know how it handles weapon skill above 308, I personally would just try and stay at 308-310
plucky nymph
Yeah the math doesn't show gains after 308 specifically, but if the OTHER things on the item that are not +weapon skill make it better, then it's still better.
Regardless if you end up being 400 fucking weapon skill or not.
viscid marsh
So I have shadowcraft belt and gutgore ripper
while having core leather gloves
and its saying muggers>shadow and distracting dagger>gutgore
if you take out wep skill shadowcraft and gutgore are def better
plucky nymph
What's your MH?
I can see Mugger's over SC belt if you maintain 6pc (or if that's not a consideration).
viscid marsh
Perd
plucky nymph
How much higher is DD over GG?
viscid marsh
very small
shadow tapir
Did you check them one by one or just both at once
viscid marsh
like between 1-2 dps
plucky nymph
Because we're looking at more weapon dmg vs. more poison procs.
viscid marsh
I check one by one and both
plucky nymph
Use whichever in regards to the weapons, doesn't matter IMO.
That math makes sense considering the tradeoffs.
viscid marsh
muggers is showing like 3-4 dps increase solo or with all 3 equiped
doesnt change much
plucky nymph
Yeah SC belt has like 14agi and like, 6? str
So that makes sense as well.
14 and 9, w.e
viscid marsh
15agi and 9str on shadow
plucky nymph
Yer
viscid marsh
muggers just 1%crit
viscid marsh
is there another 1,3 speed dagger that I could see if its just actually the speed thats making the increase or if the dag skill is the difference
plucky nymph
The Dagger Skill literally doesn't make a difference past 308.
You can just do the math yourself, once you're there you don't get almost anything past that.
It becomes flexibility in picking other gear, and useless otherwise, much worse than overflowed +HitChance.
viscid marsh
what stat weights are you using?
plucky nymph
The generic weights done by Ming forever ago that weighs the Shadowpanther lists.
an Agility comparison system for comparing gear using the formula
10 Agility = 10 Stamina = 20 Strength = 20 Attack Power = 1% Crit
That lines up toooo well > _>
shadow tapir
Yeah muggers only has 1 crit though
plucky nymph
uhhuh
viscid marsh
yeah I havent looked at that but thats what they looked like in my head
robust moon
how 10 agi is = 10 stamina
viscid marsh
i end up ignoring stam tho ofc
plucky nymph
It's weighting, you'll figure it out.
plucky nymph
Nevermind I did the Muggers backwards.
It's 10, brain am potato when not paying attention.
Apologies.
plucky nymph
I was calcing for AP.
this is for 308 skill to 315 skill.
So you gain .12% penalty reduction, and .7% hit.
So, nothing.
viscid marsh
I am confusion
plucky nymph
In fact going that high might be leading to funky math.
viscid marsh
so why is it a increase
plucky nymph
I mean, you said how much difference?
viscid marsh
I changed the fight length from 3min to 2min
and the diff was bigger
but still pretty small
but a small increase vs what would make sense as a decrease
plucky nymph
What is a "small increase"? 2? 3?
viscid marsh
gutgore and distracting is like a 2-3 dps increase muggers and shadowcraft is like a 4-5 dps increase
in the dagger skill favor item each time
plucky nymph
¯_(ツ)_/¯
Just feels like it's valuing +Skill too much.
The game math shows that there SHOULD be gains though, especially in hit.
wait you're from like...
316 to 321?
What weapon skill are you going from where Distracting Dagger is showing an increase?
plucky nymph
If I had a gigaShrug, I'd use it.
Aim for 308 weapon skill, the gains after that are dramatically diminished.
shadow tapir
My guess is that the weapon skill isn’t perfectly implemented
viscid marsh
Yeah ill just value everything over 308 as pmuch nothing
shadow tapir
Can probably bring it up to the people in charge of it
viscid marsh
have to look at all the items but usually gloves is the correct peice of out the 3 to wear right?
viscid marsh
like between muggers distracting and aclg
viscid marsh
yeah
if im dagger spec all the way that is
on a side note im still confused on how wep skill changes hit cap
raven snow
Are you saying aged core hound gloves over nightslayer?
viscid marsh
do I only go for 6% if im using aclg
shadow tapir
It’s just a weird coding thing blizzard it
Basically when the bosses defense skill is more than 10 higher than your weapon skill you get a penalty
raven snow
Combat rogues ALWAYS only go for 6% because we get +5 from talents
but I am tihnking +hit past 6% is still way more valuable than agi/AP/crit
plucky nymph
Hit still has value past the special attack hit cap because white attacks are 50% of our damage.
raven snow
but would you take 1% hit over 1% crit?
plucky nymph
It will have substantially more weight when you are up against the crit cap.
Depends on some variables.
raven snow
Example, 6% hit to 7% hit vs 25% crit to 26% crit
plucky nymph
imo, they're equal at that point.
The difference is so tiny it literally won't matter.
viscid marsh
i mean yeah ofc hit is still good after yellow cap
but loses value
trying to difure out when that is with wep skill
raven snow
i am just excited to get rid of my Skilled Fighting Blade (Alliance)
plucky nymph
So a good example of the hit vs. crit thing.
raven snow
Sucks having a green offhand lol
plucky nymph
These are within 2dps of each other.
https://classic.wowhead.com/item=19120/rune-of-the-guard-captain
https://classic.wowhead.com/item=13965/blackhands-breadth
raven snow
at what hit%?
plucky nymph
over cap
raven snow
so... I dont need to farm true strike shoudlers, I can keep my spaulders of the unseen
raven snow
Unseen is 22 agil = 22 ap + 1% crit
so I guess the delta is -1% hit
damnit, I am not gonna farm it anyway I will wait for my t1 shoulders lol
killed that pyro 15 times and havent even seen them drop yet
plucky nymph
lol
Pretty much.
Unseen to TSS is ~1% dps.
and you can't take too many of those hits.
TSS are fucking annoying though.
raven snow
Sorry, I meant unseen vs Wyrmhide Spaulders
How are you calculating these values? I'd love to be able to run it myself
opaque sand
Hello there, does our spells scales with our weapons or our AP ?
plucky nymph
Depends on what spell > _>
and I am just used to what ~10AGI is worth in DPS, you can use the cancerous Bloodmoon spreadsheet from the classic discord as well.
viscid marsh
so do I still got for the same hit cap at 310 wep skill. Read that if I have something like aclg i -3% off hitcap
plucky nymph
Depends on what weapon skill you are going from to what skill you end up at.
real simple
viscid marsh
305 to 310
viscid marsh
my brain is too small to understand what u just said
plucky nymph
So look at that chart, in the left is the DIFFERENCE between the targets defense, and your weapon skill.
A level 63 target has 315 defense.
So with 300 weapon skill you need 9% hit.
Since there is a 15pt difference between you and the target.
viscid marsh
is this after talents
shadow tapir
No
winged crystal
The higher your skill the less hit you need to reach the goal
plucky nymph
This is ONLY looking at WEAPON SKILL vs. TARGET DEFENSE
viscid marsh
yeah im confused on how weapon skill and hit chance on gear work together
plucky nymph
They all count towards your Miss Chance/Hit Chance.
winged crystal
That's is saying when you have 305 skill you need 6% hit for cap. At 310 you need 5.5%
Yellow cap I believe since white is much higher
viscid marsh
yeah
viscid marsh
but that would mean that with talents rogues would only need 1% hit to get cap
viscid marsh
305 wep skill from talents
winged crystal
Assuming precision ofc
winged crystal
Are you human or other?
viscid marsh
orc
winged crystal
So you want the 2/2 expertise and then 1%
shadow tapir
Basically
winged crystal
I'd still get the 1% because being over isn't going to hurt in that case
But humans only need 1/2 expertise because that gets them the 307 or 308 and they don't need 310 perse
The extra 2 won't help glancing all that much so it's better to use elsewhere
viscid marsh
Im still confused. Ill just value any wep skill over 310 as pmuch worthless and then only 1% hit
how much does the value of hit drop off after yellow cap
winged crystal
That would probably need to be calculated to see if what you are losing makes up for the gains
The value will be relative to what you are replacing
viscid marsh
wdym
winged crystal
Like are you dropping 1% hit over cap for 2% crit and AP? Or half of that?
viscid marsh
if 1%hit is worth 10 agi
winged crystal
It would be kind of relative.
viscid marsh
what is it worth after the first 1%
winged crystal
I'm not sure. Would have to calculate with spreadsheet i imagine
viscid marsh
Can i just trust bloodmoon with that
plucky nymph
Maybe.
I just follow the general weights I posted earlier, things seem fine and agree well enough after doing the math.
¯_(ツ)_/¯
viscid marsh
you just use 1hit=10agi even over cap?
plucky nymph
That's how ima see it.
Since we need so little fucking hit, you're not gonna not get it.
winged crystal
Someone will find a way
plucky nymph
Nah there's literally too much of it on gear that is already too good to not use.
eg. Tier2+
There's too much hit on Tier 1.
We've a neck with too much hit.
a trinket later on
You will be swimming in it.
onyx nymph
pretty sure a good chunk of our best pieces have hit and there isn't much you can do about it yeah
viscid marsh
yeah pretty much everybody will be overcap
plucky nymph
Like 99% of overcap and they don't know it.
viscid marsh
just a matter of are we overvaluing it always
plucky nymph
?
added hit
yay I guess
and that's +6%
not 6% total.
Full Tier3?
o k
You need it there though, as you're smashing the crit cap.
winged crystal
I can't wait to not get a pugio again 😂
plucky nymph
lol
winged crystal
Never got that far in classic. Managed to get my bloodfang hood, perd/cht (back in vanilla) so at least I can relive that. Maybe
Single happiest day of my wow career was getting the bloodfang hood. Just so in love with that aesthetic
shadow tapir
Does anyone know the LP skill needed for DM doors?
I read 275 but saw someone say 300
unique flame
winged crystal
book is at 75g. going to enjoy watching these prices for 6 more lvls
sharp grotto
now i can just stealth look for books
got dagger and both rings.... dont want belt so im happy
hushed laurel
im going to be farming for books for a long ass time. prolly gunna chain tributes with a few guildies for cash
sharp grotto
do books just lay on the ground in all the DM? or just certain arenas?
hushed laurel
there are spawn points for them iirc
DMW has 3, 1 near the last boss, 1 near the shadow priest, 1 near immolthars pylon in his room
they also drop off bosses, but cant solo that as a rogue
might be able to 2 or 3 man a tribute run though, bring a druid and 2 rogues. wont be worth the money, but 🤷
hushed laurel
forors should drp from tomes, its just a misrablly low dro prate
cursive ridge
I just got my barman shanker like 2 days ago
you can guess what I went and did immediately after the dungeon
exotic trellis
PvP and then break a gouge with the dot?
cursive ridge
Who needs gouge when people are dead?
sharp grotto
anyone know if lifestealing enchant would out do Crusader?
plucky nymph
drowsy phoenix
mgmghphgpghppghpgh agility dodge tank come here
versed cedar
so agility is pretty close, isnt it maybe better in fights where you are not always at the boss ? @plucky nymph
like maybe geddon or so ?
plucky nymph
What AGI? Yeah it's better if it existed.
Probably even dumber in price though.
_ >
versed cedar
oh :/
plucky nymph
Phase 3 enchant.
versed cedar
yeah, read it now 😉
versed cedar
so is it recommended to enchant both weapons with crusader? or mainhand with sup striking ?
plucky nymph
Sader on both.
versed cedar
does the one buff override the other ?
plucky nymph
Nope.
sharp grotto
No
versed cedar
ah ok
sharp grotto
Mizerok you think it’s worth putting sader on my distracting?
versed cedar
then ill have to farm a ton of living strat runs 😦
plucky nymph
If I am not using a weapon for a while I just put +4 on it.
sharp grotto
No telling how long I’m using distracting but if I get any weap it will be in my MH.... unless I get ACLG
signal ember
@plucky nymph I have been selling my scales for 1g and 20s. Selling like hot cakes.
versed cedar
scales selling well 🙂 that makes farming rend a bit better
signal ember
I'm farming off the dragons in burning steppe because you need to kill like 40 dragons for ony attunement so dead bodies for skinning everywhere
versed cedar
hm... youre right 🙂
winged crystal
sometimes when i'm trying to quest there are just corpses everywhere waiting to be skinned. Such a decision to keep finding mobs or stop and skin everything
winged crystal
yeah it always just depends how close I am to falling asleep and getting what i'm doing over with
versed cedar
^^
winged crystal
19/20 on quest mob drops and finally see one off in the distance? bet your ass I'm running right to him
civic crest
so I have a really hard time understanding weapon skill and misses :/
I've tried reading into it, but I think Im just really dumb
lets say i would get the dagger from DM with +6 dagger skill. what hit would I need against raid bosses?
maiden cave
How much hit % do I need to never miss yellow attacks (Sinister Strike/Backstab/etc.) vs raid bosses?
300 Weapon Skill: 9%
305 Weapon Skill: 6%
315 Weapon Skill: 5% (but you generally should not aim for 315+ Weapon Skill)
This is total hit % required, so if you are playing a regular Combat raiding spec with 5/5 Precision and 2/2 Weapon Expertise, you will not miss yellow attacks with just 1% hit from gear.
civic crest
also, if I would get that dagger, would I still need 5% hit against players? if I understand correctly, weapon skill gets maxed out in pvp, but what if my skill is higher then 300, will I need less hit?
Shit you were fast with that, alright thanks
any idea about the pvp question?
maiden cave
+skill by itself gives barely any hit % (and I'm not even sure it works in PvP), so I imagine you still want 5% hit for PvP
maiden cave
and I'm compiling a hit % FAQ for the rogue discord, since thats all people ask on there
ofc, hit % is still a DPS increase even after the yellow cap
civic crest
I might be an idiot
But reading into it, all it did was confuse me more
yeah ofc, but everything I do in pve, is with pvp in the back of my head
maiden cave
Then all hit % beyond those values is useless?
No. This only applies to yellow attacks. Your white hits will still have a large miss % due to the Dual Wield penalty applied from wielding 2 weapons. What people commonly refer to as a "hit cap" is more accurately the absolute minimum amount of hit % you want to have. Hit % above that still improves your overall damage since it will cause more white hits to land, and white hits tend to be ~50% of your overall damage (depending on gear/fight length/and so on).
idk if this makes sense
civic crest
Yeah I know that, but I figured that white hits are less important in pvp, since Im trying to burst
maiden cave
oh deffo
civic crest
Not trying to poke him for a while
atomic sigil
im leveling right now
staminia is not really a problem. i have an option of two boots:
swampwalker = 13 agi + 6 stam
archer boots of power = 20 ap
any advice?
civic crest
I'd personally take the agi ones, for the simple reason I like crit, 13 agi is nearly 0.5% crit, and 13 ap, and some dodge
20 ap is 20 ap
But I am no expert by far
civic crest
indd
hybrid cloud
Guys you would change the boomstick gun for the satyr bow as pre raid bis?
14agility vs 3agility+1%hit rating
maiden cave
it doesn't really matter, both are fine
winged crystal
there is a yellow cap but the white cap is much higher. depends if you are human or not
empty dove
6% and 27-somthing %
oak haven
anyone have a link to that dps spreadsheet? It's not in the pins...
winged crystal
as a human you want 1/2 weapon expertise and 1% additional hit, assuming you have 5/5 precision for yellow hit cap
oak haven
(disregard previous, i searched and discovered there is a classic wow rogue discord which owns this spreadsheet, i guess)
void olive
does anyone have a video or advice on doing coffer runs at 55-60? can only find p/server vids
civic crest
Guys
as a pvp spec dagger rogue
woudl y' all still use SnD
I feel like it doesnt add too much but Im really not sure
civic crest
in pve
I seem to be just doing fine in dungeons but going MC in a bit
hope double vanish will carry me
exotic trellis
Yes you keep SnD up
civic crest
Alright thanks
marble dune
your damage will 100% be trash if you are pvp specced into mc
tropic karma
can you pickpocket the gordok shackle key?
civic crest
idk, if bosses die within the minute I feel like if I bring all the consumables including the juju crap
I might stand a chance
I literally dinged 2 days ago tho, we'll see what happens
marble dune
yea youll get smoked by other rogues with AR