What you mean Don? They said it will be included with a basic sub
#classic-discussion
latent tusk
autumn tiger
it's gonna be the same as it was in vanilla ofc
1g then doubles to a cap of 50g basically
potent sleet
the lack of inns in classic zones is killing me
warm oasis
i mean im basically paying that respec fee every week for zul azerite
weary island
y tho
worn maple
@weary island respeccing, yes, it'll have a gold fee
@potent sleet slow movement was part of the classic experience
travel across continent even with flight paths---AFK for 10 minutes+
hehe
weary island
Yea I know respeccing will have gold fee like it should, I was saying y tho to the guy that respecs his azerite every week lol
warm oasis
Because running only 3 rogues on zul means I have to do the big deeps or we don't meet the check
I should clarify mythic zul I guess
weary island
Shouldn't really need to do that at this point but I see
autumn tiger
i cant wait for classic bros
i got my hype back after those panels, I can really tell Ion and all the others who talked genuinely love classic and want to recreate a true authentic experience
blissful locust
well, Ion was a big thing in classic
eager quarry
Best part is it's not a private sever!! Losing all the hard work for some server error!
wraith parcel
Yeah lobster, i really liked ions reaction when the presenter said that bfa was "the real game"
Thats the definition of offended
autumn tiger
hahaha yah
raven snow
@wraith parcel what is that in reference too?
fathom gale
I can't find reference to the honor among thieves talent in classic - am i dreaming it up?
wraith parcel
Fairly certain that talent wasn't introduced till wrath or late tbc
keen night
Honor among thieves was WotLK if I’m correct
sacred hawk
Think that is correct
fathom gale
but now i cant remember why i played sub in AQ
bronze beacon
merry cave
marble dune
preparation op for pvp
weak salmon
Do you guys think classic rogue would be fun to play for someone who enjoys a faster-paced version of it we have now more? Earliest version of rogue I've played was wotlk and I don't think I'd prefer it right now.
weak salmon
I understand that can be applied to all classes tbh
bright matrix
That's exactly what i was applying it to
weak salmon
Either way it's gonna be fun having poisons back
The other option I was thinking of was mage.
raven snow
@bright matrix Not true at all
Far from the truth
Tanking has incredibly high APM
Haven't played rogue
weak salmon
Not planning to tank with rogue :)
autumn tiger
you talking about pve?
raven snow
yes but vanilla tanking is extremely different
you cannot compare the two at all
they are night and day
topaz knoll
So when is vanilla out?
weary island
summer 2019
hexed berry
14 years ago
sleek jay
Gonna love to fram fadeleaf for blinding powder again.
fair carbon
Tfw rogues will actually have a reason to have herbalism aside from profiteering again
weary island
you mean to not go broke but still lose money
plucky nymph
Just farm Major Fire Prot. potions lul
raven snow
i can't wait to use and abuse the market 😩
cosmic merlin
Weird, a lot of the reddit posts that ask you to state what you're playing in classic has zero people rolling rogues. It's like they all forgot how insanely good they were for pvp and pve!
I just dont know if I'm rolling orc for stun resist and blood fury or undead for the aesthetics and WotF
hexed berry
have to do undead so you don't drown... people will forget you cant stay underwater forever.
cosmic merlin
You still can't on retail?!
plucky nymph
People don't like the Rogue class, they never did.
weary island
If it does it's Hunter loot anyway
autumn tiger
legendary bow? 🤔
autumn tiger
oh BC
worn maple
Was gonna say it's more rogue-like to not talk about existing
subtlety 
generally rogue players tend to be less chatty, idk
more loners
not always true but
scenic linden
Stay in silence and confer with other like minded individuals when needed
fathom gale
The world first legendary bow went to the Officer of Ensidia who was a hunter iirc
scenic linden
My man. 
tulip owl
Well here's a hopeful conversation starter: Do folks feel like a big part of the vanilla rogue experience requires being on a PVP server? If you're on a PVE server, are there significant chunks of "what it means/feels like to be a rogue" that you miss out on?
cosmic merlin
Definitely @tulip owl I rolled on to a pve server at launch. I regretted it immensely. Thankfully one of the onlytimes Blizz allowed free transfers from pve to pvp in vanilla included my old server (Alleria) to the new server Dalvengyr. Once I moved, I had some of the most fun times I ever had on my rogue.
hot kraken
could you roll toons on horde and alliance on pvp servers in 1.12 or whatever patch classic has can't remember i know you couldnt for a long time after release
shadow tapir
Don't think that changed until wrath or later
raven snow
I swear that was a BC Change
whole salmon
So Stunlock is back in Classic?
raven snow
It fucking better be
worn maple
Did they say whether it would be pve/pvp servers or war mode?
I know it's controversial but I was kinda hoping they'd bring war mode to classic
esp since traveling to sw/org to turn it off/on won't be nearly as convenient, and no flying mounts
autumn tiger
they won't have war mode 100%
weary island
Why wouldn't stunlock be in classic
And why the hell would they have war mode in classic 
autumn tiger
You can turn off warmode by logging off
You haven't experienced real WoW until you've been corpse camped by spike haired undead rogue named xstabbyx for four hours in STV
whole salmon
I remembered xstabbyx at STV
lime arrow
hey its me xstabbyxjr
weak salmon
Not enough X, should be at least 3 at both sides.
drowsy phoenix
limited to two duplicate characters at a time
frank crown
Is the pvp build (prep + cold blood I think?) viable for pve?
untold atlas
worn maple
guys what are we gonna do without pet battles?!
obsidian jay
Actually play the game 
lyric cradle
wait for Pet Battle GO
tepid pine
imagine playing the game and not pet battles 
frank crown
How much BFA gold is 1 classic gold? xD
worn maple
tbh probably like 50k-100k
autumn tiger
kinda hyped to pay for my classic subscription with easily farmed retail gold
raven snow
they wont, tokens make them more money than a sub does...$20 compared to the average of ~$13 I think
blissful locust
^ idk why people think that tokens make the game f2p or something, everytime you buy a token with gold you give blizz more money then you do with a normal sub payment
tulip halo
If you make the gold yourself and you’re paying for your sub with gold then that is free to play
ivory pagoda
It's play to play
shadow tapir
Play to play free
worn maple
Kinda off-topic but I'll weigh in
If you're playing, you're feeding into the engagement metric, which is v.important now that they don't discuss subs as a metric (investors want that info somehow).
If you play for gold, and then buy a token with gold, you are using engagement to create demand, which perpetuates a market. Because tokens cost more than subs, you individually aren't paying more, but you're generating more revenue for blizz.
Somebody is always paying for tokens. They don't just "appear."
But to Rare's original point, Classic and Retail are, so far according to blueposts (including recent ones) supposed to be independent things. Your achievements, mounts, pets, etc don't carry over.
So it's difficult because they said Classic will be covered with "your regular sub," which basically, as Rare indicated, means that Retail economy/gold does impact the Classic server.
As a matter of fact, I think it would be worth asking the team about, because it's troubling! Especially if people can pay real money to sell a token on classic, that would completely and irreversibly destroy the integrity of the Classic economy
hot cairn
@worn maple it's been asked, there was a Blue Post about it recently from Ythisens
they don't consider using retail gold to pay a classic sub to be a gameplay advantage, because it isn't
I'm not playing retail so ostensibly I'm on the losing end of this policy
but am I?
it doesn't matter to me that someone else is paying with retail gold instead of paying with $15 a month
there is no gameplay difference
autumn tiger
yah seems like a win win situation for everyone Blixz gets more people playing retail and players are able to pay for themselves without affecting other classic players
worn maple
I'm more concerned people will use real money to buy classic gold, if you re-read what I said
which to my knowledge hasn't been addressed yet
would be easy to just disallow sale of tokens on classic tho
weary island
You won't be able to buy classic gold lol
autumn tiger
yah that was never a thing
all on retail, but the retail sub allows you to play classic
lyric cradle
i think you mean classic sub will allow you to play retail 
hexed berry
personally I'd love it if appearances, mounts, pets, and maybe titles you acquire in Classic are added to your Retail Collection (but still function properly in classic)
so still no transmogging, no mount/pet journal, but it actually provides a bit more added incentive for players that like collecting those things to play in Classic.
eager quarry
I don't care honestly, done with BfA and xpacks after it! Classic to WotLK! Blizzard servers or Private is only thing worth playing.
lyric cradle
I think it would be cool but unnecessary
hexed berry
it seems like there are 3 types of players that would play classic, people like @eager quarry who are basically completely put off by the current state of the game, people wanting to play for nostalgia reasons, and and there is a major content drought, that would send a few people over.
honestly, unless magically private servers stop appearing, I think people with hard's attitude will tend to play private rather than pay $15. people playing for nostalgia will most likely quickly burn out when they remember how horrible classic is.
so some sort of incentive to play classic would help to keep the classic player base at healthy levels rather than a zillion at launch and large surges during retail content droughts.
autumn tiger
hexed berry
when it launches there definitely will, yeah I was just imagining launch day questing 🤢
1 hour in you've killed 2 wolves
lyric cradle
and I don't think people play private servers cause of the cost
hexed berry
just pulling numbers out of thin air, but I would guess about half do, half don't. most of the people I know that have played private basically played private because at the time they couldn't justify the sub.
lyric cradle
assuming classic is up to blizzards pre-BFA standards, it should be a much better experience than any private servers
inner stream
I played on a vanilla private server for a little over a year, and I quit when Blizz officially announced the release dates for Classic. Private servers suck so bad.
ivory pagoda
Blizz won't deliver a full vanilla experience
Sharding on release, spell batching etc
spark raptor
Neri, what server were you on? Kronos was rly good and still is
Sharding would totally kill it
lyric cradle
they said sharding will only be for initial launch
which makes sense considering how many people who don't like BFA will try it plus the old guard
spark raptor
does sharding affect 1.general chat?
lyric cradle
not sure, i didn't play the blizzcon beta
not sure if it even effects chat in retail tbh
inner stream
Fox, I was on Anathema/Lightshope/Lightbringer. LOL
What sucks about private servers is that they get low pop and eventually die, and then they open new fresh servers which further kill the already dying vanilla servers.
Essentially, you are resetting your progress, which in vanilla is tiring. Blizzard servers won't be like that.
weary island
Depends on where you play, like fox said kronos is good and has been around for years and years
spark raptor
@inner stream anathema lightshope lightbringer, the nost knockoffs xD yea theyre all "nost core" but not really. i had a T2 nost rogue but didnt play there at all im happy about it, what a shitshow
a lot of these servers die because theyre developing on the run. kronos has all content scripted and released on a fully progressed server (also buffed naxxramas)
but holy shit kronos pathing is xDD luckily thats not too impactful in raids
inner stream
Yeah, I never played on nost. I came later to the game, and I raided naxx for about a year. I kind of got burned out with all the crappy server drama. So, I'm just gonna wait til Classic now. 😛
spark raptor
yee same
are you used to getting world buffs?
i think a lot of people cant be arsed to get them so you'll look like a golden god if you get them for a while :p
inner stream
They had buffs enabled in naxx at the time I left, yeah.
spark raptor
i never did naxx with wbuffs, rip
i think wbuffs were disabled for 3 months on kronos or so
inner stream
It made it a breeze as long as no one derped and pulled an extra trash pack. Then you could kiss those buffs goodbye.
spark raptor
cant wait for people to whine about BWL trashpacks :DDD
inner stream
Lol, the ramp trash. Juju ember necessity, lol.
spark raptor
yeah ramp trash is so rough
inner stream
I popped greater fire pots on cd cuz i hated dying. Sometimes, I would flask. So expensive, lul.
spark raptor
thats a unique kind of annoying and lethal, even though there are worse mobs in AQ40. theyre not as many tho
i never GFPP'd cause i was too stingy with my gold
but them im melee dps
it was mostly mages and warlocks getting shields and prio heals for AE and hellfire
in my guild at least
obv you could stand at the edge of the aoe and move out if youre scared/low hp xD
inner stream
Being a rogue and having to stay on the suppression room traps was scary. Talk about trusting your healers to not let you die to flamestrike or welps. bleh
spark raptor
its more about trusting hunters and tanks tbh
inner stream
yeah and heals to roll hots on you
so you don't pull whelps
but yeah hunters pulling for sure
spark raptor
we had a hunter pull whelps back so rogues could do their job in peace
inner stream
yeah definitely. i cringed every time we had a new hunter do it.
spark raptor
tranq bots basically
they can do competitive damage in naxx actually if you give them proper trinkets
inner stream
Yeah, I've seen some really good hunters in naxx.
spark raptor
kiss of the spider (and badge if you dont reduce the boss to close to 0 armor)
theyre good early MC, good late naxx and inbetween theyre required as tranq bots, easy life
inner stream
yup
spark raptor
reminds me of this dude
who had dark edge of insanity and tidal charm and r13+T2.5
survival spec
8k hp unbuffed
he just wrecked me 1v1 in melee (t2.5 arms warrior)
inner stream
oh nice
spark raptor
actually numerically unbeatable
inner stream
I was thinking about rolling hunter in classic just so I skip the rogue t3 drama.
lol
spark raptor
if youre 100% attendance people will love you as hunter
inner stream
true
Idk what it is, but most hunters in vanilla (that I met) had the best attitudes in raid.
Might not be true for all, ofc.
spark raptor
i think it's their excess gold because they dont get salty when they have to pop a new set of consumables
inner stream
yeah lol for real
spark raptor
i never had a hunter for DMN farm, i got super toxic whenever i died
inner stream
I remember getting whispers from warriors that were salty when I got a t3 piece. Got old fast. haha
spark raptor
a stack of plaguebloom was 90g at some point on kronos, unreal
inner stream
oh dang lol
I just realized I said "got gold fast". I meant to say "got old fast". haha whoops
worn maple
I hope that somebody ™ is able to track the players at launch versus the active players at max level from 5 months to a year
There will obviously be a dropoff, but maybe not massive. I'd love to see how it plays out
(There's a dropoff for every expac, that's natural, it doesn't mean anything more than people play new stuff for a bit and then leave)
outer grail
I really hope for classic to be very successful so that they can make retail better also. Atm I only log for raids. This is so sad.
hexed berry
not sure classic being successful will stop blizzard from becoming activision. the wheels are in motion.
weary island
the wheels became in motion when blizzard north ceased to be an indie studio
~2006-ish
spark raptor
Did you see the wowhead comments on the hivemind restriction article? Try selling that crowd a "hardcore" mmo and see how it goes xD
blissful locust
where the fuck was classic wow a hardcore mmo lol
it was THE casual mmo even back in the days
weary island
^
spark raptor
Thats why i put "
blissful locust
well,wildstar had multiple problems, but yeha, if you only go for the´´hardcore´´playerbase, you lose a shitton of players
autumn tiger
Wow was the casual mmo compared to EverQuest when it released but it's a lot more hardcore no life than current wow now
blissful locust
deepens wath is hardcore imo
old wow had a huge grind requirement for mats/raid attuments, the rest was not that hardcore
you cant really messure old with current wow, they are basicly 2 different games at this point
worn maple
Yeah I was gonna say, classic was nolife but not hardcore difficulty
the "hardcore" element was the nolifing required to sustain the raiding/etc
eager quarry
The difference is the feeling to me, i can't stand AP farming it feels awful. I know other expacks had rep, and others. Just small amounts of AP for a reward just isn't fun at all.
blissful locust
tbf, thats more or less wath most people wanted(even if they cry now)
people didnt like that you ´´needed´´ too farm ap like a mad man in legion,so they made a system that has constant progression, but you cant really fall behind(srsly, you dont need too farm ap too get stuff)
same with azerite armor, people complained that too much power was in legendarys, so they made something new that does something, but not too much so you dont have a gigantic disadvantage(example, 2 rogues, 1 had the shoulder legendary, and did not, the difference was huge)
not trying too defend blizz or something,ofc both things have problems, but there is a reason why everything is like that right now
worn maple
I will say something I miss about vanilla/TBC and to a lesser extent wrath is that trash and world mobs mattered
The gold/loot/rep you got from them, even if grindy, was important
Part of that was also that there was more to playing classes/specs than hitting 4 buttons in most cases
worn maple
@autumn tiger are you gonna main rogue?
worn maple
Warrior tank?
If I play it'll probably be Rogue. I wouldn't mind tanking but I wouldn't warrior tank, so they'll need to make another one viable
don't feel like yelling at retail babies to wait for 3 sunders
autumn tiger
yah I like tanking best in pve
worn maple
Were they? I literally never partied with one until Wrath
downside of no CRZ...if there wasn't one on your server, there wasn't one
autumn tiger
yah bears have some real advantages
high threat
people are better now , the wait till 3 sunders thing isn't really followed but yah will be interesting to see all the DPS specs learn to cope with threat mechanic
that teeming m+ mod brought it back at least some
eager quarry
Watched a stream last weekend of a bear main tanking BWL on a PS. Can't remember the guild or server tho.
spark raptor
Fury warriors should always help with sunders, if they dont your raid is shit
weary island
? sunder creates threat why would fury do that
when they have no reliable way to drop threat like rogue
worn maple
Retailbaby detected
eager quarry
Words hurt! Okay can't use retailbaby! Have to find a more sense-able word!
autumn tiger
You have all the fury warriors use their first GCD for sunder so that the boss's armor gets to 0 asap , good tanks have to be skilled at getting threat fast
being a hardcore main tank in vanilla takes a lot of skill and dedication, they will rank up to grand marshal just for threat gear. they tank dual weilding with no shield fury specced to maximize threat
weary island
shy bobcat
Keeping heroic strike queued is hard
autumn tiger
@shy bobcat mad?
spark raptor
Lobster is not trolling btw, thats how it is
worn maple
Have they said yet if they'll iterate any on classes
Or is it going to be how those classes were exactly in Vanilla
idr seeing any concrete discussion of it
spark raptor
Patch 1.12.
So it wont have infinte reckoning, damageless bloidthirst or ccless deathcoil. Most undecided things are not rly class based
I guess the biggest things that are unclear would be spell batching, progressive itemization and debuff cap?
autumn tiger
they won't change any of the talents or spells that are in 1.12 , vanilla class balance in all it's perfection and flaws
autumn tiger
basically the talents and spells are static 1.12 design but the content and items are patch progressive with a new rough timeline they've announced
worn maple
Neat
wraith parcel
Progressive itemization was basicly confirmed not to happen during blizzcon. As they said they will not touch the data, they didn't explicitly mention it though @shy bobcat
autumn tiger
ehh disagree
spark raptor
"basically confirmed" - so it wasnt. :v)
weary island
16 debuff slot limit has already been confirmed
you can't really remove that limit anyway without it having cascading consequences to the raid meta at that time
class balance was more based around roles instead of specs/classes
and imo 16 is a fine spot within that meta
way better than the 8 it was previous to 1.12
weary island
the debuff slot increase was widely regarded as a good choice, the people that cry about that will be very small and doing it just to rile things up
wraith parcel
I mean you can't have progressive itemization without touching the data. It's not confirmed though correct
weary island
progressive itemization has nothing to do with 16 debuff slots, unless you were referencing something earlier
shy bobcat
Sorry, yeah I worded that poorly. I meant progressive content releases (tiers essentially), not that they were going to update gear properties
autumn tiger
16 debuff slots is bad tbh
it makes the raids even easier than they already are
@wraith parcel all of the old item data exists in the db
weary island
why is 16 debuff slots bad?
making it unlimited as it is now is ridiculous, but any fight in AB and ZG vanilla was tuned at 16 debuff slots
and was capped at that
continuing that vein, would it be ok to cap debuffs at 8 until ZG release? if it's even staggered? i would be ok with that. but we dont know the release schedule
what even is the schedule? is there a schedule?
hypotheticals
autumn tiger
unlimited is much much worse
8 until it gets buffed until ZG
makes BWL and MC more difficult
the thing about easy vanilla content that everyone memes about, the vanilla hardcore meta is all about speed runs. Yes, MC is braindead easy but MC finished in 17minutes is the current record and it's no easy feat
weary island
i totally agree unlimited should never be a thing. i also think it should stay at 8 debuff slots until ZG is open, just like retail
it will be interesting to see how they address that
if they just say fuck it 16 at 1.12, have fun steamrolling BWL
or if they stick with 8 until ZG
autumn tiger
yah for sure
and like u said the timeline isn't very clear or good tbh. Only 4 major patches??
weary island
exactly, who knows at this point
autumn tiger
I'm hyped tho
weary island
Same!
spark raptor
Mc is way easier with 16 debuffs, thats all there is to it. You either like it or dont x; and thats fine
spark raptor
People will be able to throw more dots
ruby pier
Can we speak about this ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKCUxRCILks
blissful locust
the walk animation is faster, and....?
plucky nymph
THIS RUINS EVERYTHING
signal ember
CLASSIC RUINED FOR ME
@autumn tiger How do you feel about this? No longer a vanilla classic wow that we all know and love
autumn tiger
lyric cradle
cancel it!
delicate stone
The Demo animation looks much better. The original doesn't look like it adheres to the ground at all. He may as well be ice skating.
spark raptor
did the spec into subtlety to get that kind of movement speed? in combat spec you'll want to end yourself while stealthing because your speed is so crippled :v)
fathom hearth
New looks smoother, the old slides more
blissful locust
soo...we need a smooth slide?
weary island
blissful locust
tbf, that list is outdated as hell or made by somone that never touched m+ in his life, cus you need a shitton of cc there
and legendarys was legion;P
weary island
damn you're fun at parties
blissful locust
and we can combine the shoulder/legendary part with´´I FINALY GOT MY FKING SHOULDER LEGENDARYS AND CAN DO REAL DPS´´
weary island
you dont really have to cc in m+ either unless you're doing 18s or up
blissful locust
fk the legion legendary system, worst shit they ever made in wow
signal ember
I ditto, this azerite pieces are worse.
blissful locust
azerite is boring
legendarys was boring cus you only used the same 2-3pieces AND you where fucked if you didnt have the right ones
atleast they removed the ´´lul you do 15%less dps cus you dont have the right legendary, hf farming 1 1/2 week too have a CHANCE too get the right one for 1spec sucker`` bullshit that legendarys where
eager quarry
Terrible system... WoD > Legion!
dense ingot
Same. Shoulders were my last piece 😃 Great system
hybrid zealot
i didn't play a rogue in wow. But rogues kind of specilize in damage based on spec. Many classes and specs used multiple different legendary depending on the fight or part of the dungeon
blissful locust
you......used the shoulders all the time, on all 3 specs, and then every spec had 1-2 other legendarys you used beside the shoulders,that was it lol
fallen panther
Shoulder plebs smh
hybrid zealot
That's why I mentioned I knew rogues were kind of different. And I meant in legion I didn't play almost any rogue. My b
But most specs of other classes didn't have that issue rogues had with one being the end all be all at all times
blissful locust
most classes used the atleast 1 legendary all the time, hell, spriest was bullshit too play without the waist as an example
hexed berry
lets balance classes around an item that players have an extremely low chance to acquire. Genius!
autumn tiger
that made me quit legion
that no matter what I couldn't parse high cuz I don't have the right legendaries
hybrid zealot
Thats a little dramatic honestly
autumn tiger
its a factual statement
i couldnt perform as well as the people with bis legendaries no matter how hard i tried
hybrid zealot
Yes and your reaction was dramatic. If you were parsing you weren't benched. Which means it didn't matter for you. and while doing mythic outside of bleeding edge it wasn't that important.
autumn tiger
I can agree with that
but it did affect my enjoyment of the game knowing I couldnt do my best because of some shitty RNG I couldnt control
horible game design at start of legion, like most systems in wow they fixed it by the end of the xpac (and then remove/fuck it up next xpac lul)
drowsy phoenix
azerite is the farming version of legendaries smh
worn maple
blissful locust
where the fuck is azerite ´´farming´´ close too legiondaries?
you dont need too farm azerite, the weekly catchup makes it a pushover BECAUSE so many people complained about the really bad AP grind for 80%of legion(only was more or less fine after they made AK character wide on all specs)
azerite armor is the answer too legendarys, legendarys had too much power on 1piece that was pure luck based too get, so they made a new system where you know where you get that specific piece and the effects are less impactfull so you are not 100% fucked for not having the BiS one's
yes, azerite armor is still flawed, but it is the answer too the bad legion legendary system
coarse flower
You know what would be even better? No azerite.
Nobody asked for RGN legendries either
but blizz gotta add some bs system every expac now
hybrid zealot
Sure lets go with no changes. Just keep adding raids and dungeons.
blissful locust
like i said, azerite is flawed, dont like it too
coarse flower
Nobody hate changes
hybrid zealot
Yes but they need some kind of system on top or there's really no change happening. I'm not saying azsrite doesn't have problems but a system does need to be there
raven snow
Weren't people really happy with the Artifact system from Legion?
coarse flower
not at the start
raven snow
Sorry, I haven't played for seven years (since late-stage Cata)
seems like they're really willing to fuck with the base-level way the game works now though and I don't know if I like that or not
coarse flower
just like they "fixed" it over the course of legion, Azerite gear is getting the same treatment
raven snow
I wonder what the problem was with the way items/weapons worked before then, in Blizz's eyes,
coarse flower
it's just not right now xd
raven snow
justice points, valor points, honor points, etc. was there something terribly wrong with all of those systems?
raven snow
Is that to keep people coming on and playing more and keep a subscription up?
Cause grindiness is what killed all those Eastern mmorpgs.
So I just wonder why they think grinding will keep people around.
coarse flower
it certianly doesn't have the benefit of what Blizzard would like (keep subs stables)
because ppl get tired of the grind, not that you really have to grind it though
only if you are at the top end, no way to not grind
raven snow
I see
quartz tide
Hey guys, would this work in classic at all? https://classicdb.ch/?talent#fZbxEbd0tZxMgochoo
hybrid zealot
It's the opposite
If your at the top end you need to grind if your not and you do thats on you cause you don't have too
And all those systems were just ways to get gear iirc. They didn't add to the game. Back in older expansions they added abilities and changed classes to give them a facelift. They are trying to use systems so there are things you can gain and lose. It's to avoid the bloat that hapened from expansions of giving and giving and giving
autumn tiger
mace pvp spec?
I'd go with something like this: https://classicdb.ch/?talent#fZhxxdr0tZxMgochRo
quartz tide
I figured the 5% hit was a nice thing to add, as that was the spec I was looking at originally @autumn tiger
quartz tide
Yeah I'm playing on Lightshope, it's more exciting than retail right now.
raven snow
Im not gonna lie, I have a hard time leveling by myself in classic, it just gets mind numbingly boring
the furthest that I've gone is 32 but then I just get bored doing it alone
quartz tide
I just invite randoms I see in the area.
You're probably going to see them a bunch, so why not just invite them, and then guess what later, they may remember you were dope, and you hook up with them again.
My buddy is going through the same problem right now. We're 18/19, he's 14 and wants to make a hunter to level up alone, because he says it'll let him solo content. Trying to explain to him classic isn't like retail where you can just reroll an alt, and get it caught up in a couple hours. He'll start at 2, by the time he hits 14, we'll be like 20+
lime arrow
The thing about a MMORPG is it's way more fun with friends
Playing solo is a good way to get burnt out
drowsy phoenix
I no-lifed legion (aka when I got a wow account), did way too much, now I can barely bring myself to play the game
lyric cradle
I barely played legion, just didn't find it that fun
Probably didn't help I got a super shit legendary
worn maple
@drowsy phoenix Legion had a ton of solo content though.
I'd say that's the difference between Legion and BFA--Legion's solo content was generally very good. BFA's is not. The stories don't flow, the quests are stale, and the class halls were way better than anything solo-centric that's in BFA
Has anything been said about allowing addons in Classic?
There's a lot of new addons that would dramatically change the 'classic' experience imo
if adapted to that
autumn tiger
they've said that they know add-ons is going to be a very complicated issue they will have to address
Maybe they will block part of the API, but I don't think they have any concrete solution yet
as far as boring during leveling in vanilla, it does happen. I try to switch up and do dungeons. I make friends and quest with new people in zones. Sometimes I'll just grind and watch twitch or the TV
worn maple
At least mobs dropped stuff that mattered then. Grinding didn't feel like a total waste
now anything that isn't a quest target feels like a complete waste of time
ruby bridge
why would addons be an issue?
i agree they could alter the experience but even back then a lot of players used addons for various purposes (very often for bots)
autumn tiger
because add-ons can add features that are the antithesis of vanilla wow like gear score, lfg, etc
fallen panther
Grinding mobs for vendor trash loot 
I actually did that a lot 
I guess technically it was for cloth. But grey stuff added up as well
autumn tiger
Gonna have to grind a lot in vanilla wow, it's super relaxing to me
autumn tiger
that's a great way to put it
weary island
Grinding gorillas in stv for the gray sinews starting at like level 37 to get enough gold for a mount 
autumn tiger
vanilla wow is so rewarding every little gold, talent point, rep point, level etc feels awesome. Where as in retail I don't personally experience that at all
fallen panther
Grinding is ded for a long time already afaik. Other than some specific weird rep farms or whatever
Never understood why tbh
autumn tiger
I remember legion when my legendaries dropped it made me feel like shit because they were some of the worst ones
GJ blizzard making it so obtaining legendary gear make ppl sad
hybrid zealot
I mean. Unless you were top 100 getting the wrong legendaries weren't that big of a deal. If anything the ones that were should have just had little nerds to bring them in lone.
drowsy phoenix
@worn maple the thing is, I did almost all of loremaster, a bunch of miscellanous achievements, rep grinds (ogri'la, BSB and steamwheedle exalted at the same time, etc.)
I just burned out after that
worn maple
Hm?
You did those in Legion, you mean?
I'll admit I was an achievement junkie (19k+) until MoP-ish
and then I didn't have the time to hunt all of them, max out archaeology, etc
Archaeology was always so frustrating because it was total RNG. I still don't have the scarab mount
after years of farming it
But yeah I actually really enjoyed hunting down all the possible achieves and then once I fell behind I just kinda gave up
I didn't do any archaeology whatsoever in WoD--never got stage 3 fishing shack, etc.
lyric cradle
Yeah I think MoP was when I gave up chasing achievements
But that's kinda because I quit in Cata and catching up is a bitch
autumn tiger
I hate game achievements so much
trying to tell me how I should play the game and then they get abused and required to even do half the pve content
drowsy phoenix
archaeology doesnt seem to hate me that much
hybrid zealot
@autumn tiger they aren't really required. Theres one achievement that people even remotely look for in pugs. and outside of pugs in which all of the pve content is better it doesn't matter
autumn tiger
from my personal experiences I disagree
hybrid zealot
Yes experiences meaning anecdotal.
autumn tiger
it's a very commonly echoed sentiment among the community
hybrid zealot
echoed does not mean correct or a majority feels that way. It's a very common misconception that the thing someone sees the most is thought of the most prevalant opinion. Especially when it aids in confirmation bias
autumn tiger
😂
raven snow
My question is they are including all the QoL improvements we come to expect like group finder, raid finder, etc. in the classic version?
blissful locust
lfg/lfr will not be in classic
i mean, lfr is its own difficulty, and classic stuff only had 1
hybrid zealot
they will not because while I'm not a fan of classic persay the people who heavily miss it prefer the forced interaction as it's the only way some of them interact with other people
weary island
@raven snow of course not
autumn tiger
@hybrid zealot 😂
red yarrow
iirc, there's actually a group finder addon that a lot of people on private realms use. There will probably be a premade group finder addon for classic wow ready to go within a week of it going live. 🤷
autumn tiger
Yeah, it just scans the global channels and city channels but we don't even know if the global /world channels will be allowed in classic because it's not actually blizzlike
Vanilla also had a LFG system of sorts that most dont know about , you have to go through the innkepper. It even queued you and found other players looking for the dungeon. Ive never used it however
and then summoning stones worked in the TBC pre-patch
red yarrow
To be frank, the classic group finder was kind of crap. Given that it's 1.12 built on a modern base, there will likely be a global addon channel for addons to communicate.
autumn tiger
Yeah but I personally feel that even with that addon the vanilla experience of finding a group and trekking to the dungeon isn't changed
weary island
i leveled multiple 60's on multiple different 1.12 1x realms and never used or even saw ppl using that addon
¯_(ツ)_/¯
and yeah global lfg channel isn't blizzlike and most likely won't be a thing
autumn tiger
its called vqueue, i used it before
red yarrow
global channels were 100% a thing in classic, even player created ones. Just can't remember the specifics of them off the top of my head.
weary island
hmm u might be right, i think the defense channel was global
autumn tiger
they had global channels but it had a cap
they were only used by a small group of people
red yarrow
There was 100% a LookingForGroup channel added at some point, but I forget the exact patch. Granted, it was limited to cities. Didn't stop people from just using Trade, though. lol
autumn tiger
yeah it was only in cities which is different from the pserver /world
defense chat was based on zones
red yarrow
As I said, it'll boil down to how / if an addon channel will be implemented with classic wow due to being built on modern version of game. The original purpose of the addon channels was to reduce the amount of spam in chat channels iirc.
You're also thinking of LocalDefense. There was also GlobalDefense that would notify you of pvp happening anywhere in the world. Anyone could join it, but only people rank 10 or higher could talk in it.
autumn tiger
There also exists the possibility that Blizz could just ban addons that are against core vanilla values like LFG, gear score. Theyve said it's going to be a serious issue the will have to look at case by case
yah global defense but its very different from /world heh
weary island
gear score would just be dumb because of resistance gear and mp5 etc
although mp5 gear wasn't in the game until dire maul patch
but still
red yarrow
If there's an armory that you're able to send API requests to, some rather interesting addons can be created
autumn tiger
hopefully they wont lol
but i do think its inevitable to a certain degree
in vanilla the macro and addon API was so broken/loose you can make bots to heal in raids for example or one button macros for every spec really
red yarrow
Exactly. The modern API exists for a plethora of reasons.
It's why I find issue with the statement of "banning addons that are against the core vanilla values". Yeah, the game has changed a lot in terms of design since vanilla, but so has the design philosophy of the players who create addons and 3rd party resources.
A lot of our "modern" ui/out of game resources got their humble starts in vanilla. Some of them like Armory had 3rd party equivalencies in classic like CTProfiles, but Blizzard decided to remove the middle man in TBC.
Yeah, Blizzard could potentially restrict certain API calls, but between modern 3rd party resources and modern addon developers, the player base WILL undoubtedly create a different game than what was.
ruby bridge
gearscore 😛
also i would like to counter that argument, in classic a big part of the game api allowed a lot more automization. This was used A LOT. if you want a authentic experience you essentially would need to fully allow bots to the game
red yarrow
ha. I actually raided with people back who told me stories about how back in classic, there were addons where you could literally control the actions of another player.
ruby bridge
there was a popular heal addon that essentially healed for you it was suggested by the majority of raiders
red yarrow
oh, definitely
ruby bridge
as mentioned, having to deal with tons of bots was a big part of the experience so if you aim for authenticity blizz probably should even add bots that steal your quests, materials and similar
red yarrow
iirc, the healer in Drama that got their first Atiesh couldn't heal without healbot. When it was canned, he more or less quit the game.
ruby bridge
classic had other perks, mainly the community and a straight forward time = power relation
the majority of gameplay is for current standards dealing with annoyances and unnessecery grinds
red yarrow
Yeah, it definitely did have its perks. The community aspect, though, I always wonder if it was partially due to state of the internet and online gaming at the time. Pre widespread social media made the internet quite different
blissful locust
the internet as a howl is different nowdays
just look at anything people´´discuss´´nowdays, there are only 2 opinions about stuff:love it, best thing ever OR worse then hitler/satan togheter
classic will have way less community interaction etc....cus of it too, it can be the same game it was in 2004, but the people changed
spark raptor
at least you could set goals for gearing back in the day. that doesnt exist anymore really.
blissful locust
eh, has nothing too do with the point i made and its not 100%true, cus you can(and should....) still aim for items etc. yes maybe there is that 1-2 item that forge pretty good and are usable cus of it, but all items except in 3 slots (head, 1weapon and 1 trinket) are from the current raid on me as an example
you have more ways too gear yourself in current wow, in vanilla/classic you had 1 big goal, its 2 different things
weary island
your first shoulders in vanilla = better than any legendary
autumn tiger
@ruby bridge thats super inaccurate lol
did you ever play classic?
the heal addon was introduced on pservers not in vanilla
there were leveling bots and gold farming bots but they were very basic and mainly used by gold sellers
there was also really poor account security because this was before 2fa was widespread... lots of accounts got hacked
blizzard was trying to stop the bots and gold sellers back then ofc they would continue to
ruby bridge
i remember having the ability to execute 3rd party scripts
what absically let you bring maleware to the pc
i assume it must be a thrill now knowing if you just installed sth harmfulll with your new addon
for the automation addons, yes they got more popular with the first and secound addon
bot count was very early relatively low, however become quite noticable very fast
autumn tiger
they didnt have addons that played for you in actual vanilla
they had external bot programs for the bots
ruby bridge
most bots where simple automation scripts more expensive implementation came later
autumn tiger
I'd double check your sources on some of those claims tbh
ruby bridge
well luckily we wont have both issues with wow classic 😃
i also dont think addons are an issue, as you can decide yourself if you use them or not. So your personal experience is up to you 😃
blissful locust
you really think there will be no bots?
plucky nymph
None of the kind that there were.
autumn tiger
There will always be bots in wow just as there's bots on retail rn imo
but there will be less on classic than on pservers or vanilla imo
some add-ons are an issue even if u don't install them like gearscore imo but I already wrote about that above
blissful locust
*there will always be bots in everything
autumn tiger
bots will rule the world
fallen panther
red yarrow
yeah, in the grand scheme of things, WAs for 15 year old game, unit frames that aren't a crime against humanity, and a simple ui that gives a list of group currently looking for people aren't game breaking rocket science. 
ivory pagoda
Try saying that to the #nochanges crowd
spark raptor
Just use the 1.12 client :^)
wraith parcel
Even the #nochanges crowd will have to deal with changes, as most of those are people who played on private servers which arent exact replicas of the actual vanilla that blizz will provide. A lot of proc rates, armor values and drop rates on those servers are estimates or going of a random dude on a forum claims.
spark raptor
I really wonder which ironfoe we'll get
storm spire
The 1.12 one 🤔
spark raptor
Is it 4 or 10%
weary island
is what
spark raptor
Depends on proc chance rly. On kronos the 4% foe was only beaten by kt weps and ed, 10% youd never replace
autumn tiger
1.5 ppm is 6%
spark raptor
4% is still bis until kt weps, but not fun to play i guess
spark raptor
I mean if you get no procs in a 30sec fight its bad obv
Actually i might misremember the numbers, but there is a nice discussion on the kronos bugtracker on this
desert atlas
Are there any generic guidelines for Rogues in PvP? Like Prep is prob the most important talent to have in pvp so seal fate while it can be fun is prob not much viable? How is Cold blood vs Prem? I was thinking of going 21/3/27. Since I will most likely go Sword as human in PvE might aswell go Hemo in PVP with CB and Prep
autumn tiger
@desert atlas Theres a bunch of builds I put in the pins. Seal fate is a lot of fun and it gets better and better the more gear you have. I could def see it being a good pvp build in the later patches. The 21/3/27 build you mentioned is the standard sword stunlock pvp build. It has the most burst and can build up combo points the quickest
i like 21/8/22 with daggers
but that's the beauty of classic rogues, they have half a dozen+ viable pvp builds
autumn tiger
energy is a fixed rate, it dosent change
if you use all your abilities you will have low energy
I guess Lol
usually that term is used for rage
fallen panther
Still better than running out of mana as a dps caster 
autumn tiger
Tru
spark raptor
Now that i look at the builds, youd want to get improved backstab for vael dps even if youre specced sword. Remove points from endurance and parry to get it.
spark raptor
I love perditions blade mh + warblade of the hakkari oh
autumn tiger
that's pro
spark raptor
Looks good and feels good too with that spec
autumn tiger
I always raided as daggers tbh
spark raptor
One guildmate on nost did play daggers
Rest was sword. Daggers is just straight up worse but it can be beneficial for raid dps obv by not wasting itemization
He beat all our sword rogues but 2
spark raptor
Nah windfury is too strong
spark raptor
Yeah but muggers belt is a sad item
autumn tiger
Lol
spark raptor
Yeah gloves are great
310 skill is good enough already
On short fights especially i guess
autumn tiger
how do you get 310 sword on horde
spark raptor
I mean 310 dagger
spark raptor
For sword your only option is maladath
autumn tiger
sword is prolly better but daggers can compete
spark raptor
Yeah omg deaths sting is great
autumn tiger
maladath usually goes to warrior
spark raptor
Horde warriors shouldnt use swords
Horde is kinda favoured from an itemization standpoint kinda
Deathbringer is utter crap on alli and rly good on hordr
autumn tiger
What guild did you play with on Nost?
autumn tiger
dank budz memes were the best
autumn tiger
idk
spark raptor
He did some nice posts on the corecraft forums, rip
autumn tiger
Corecraft Lol
spark raptor
He did 1 vid that was something like a rogue guide irl
spark raptor
And he used nightblade
And the nightblade was a black dildo
That he slapped his friend with
Good times
But yeah axes are all over the game and very powerful, horde can actually utilize them
autumn tiger
sounds like a grizzly member lmao
spark raptor
Definitely
Man now i think of that one NA dude i actually had contact with. Met him in maraudon and coached him a bit
autumn tiger
axes with edgies is still viable on ally
spark raptor
I mean theyre usable but you wanna avoid edgemasters
Using edgemasters usually means you messed up in character creation by not being human female
autumn tiger
Lol
autumn tiger
@granite escarp are you playing vanilla?
do wailing caverns or deadmines
both have rly good swords
granite escarp
lmao
autumn tiger
Lol
granite escarp
im a 15 mage
granite escarp
ight
spark raptor
Just suffer through it, spending gold on low level gear just cripples you
Esp as a caster you have think about what spells you buy or dont buy anyway
raven snow
Don’t buy gear from AH, you will just get better gear through natural levelling
raven snow
^ You are going to need as much as possible for riding
signal ember
I remember getting the 52 epic rifle which covered my epic mount training
past epoch
I remember combat daggers being the top spec until the end of vanilla, but I'm seeing some people say things have been different on private servers. Can anyone confirm this? I'm having trouble finding any reliable information
autumn tiger
combat swords for sure on alliance
combat daggers and swords is pretty close on horde
autumn tiger
Yah human racial +5 sword skill is huge
devout pendant
10% rep buff is op af
lyric cradle
hell yeah, think how much time it saves getting the winterspring frostsaber
spark raptor
Daggers cant compete even on horde. Windfury is a thing
autumn tiger
I can show u logs
spark raptor
I mean in a shit guild it probably can
Top30 legacyplayers rogues are mostly humsn, and nonhumans in the higher ranks are swords. Obv there is a place for daggers, as not using them is wasted itemization. But daggers never can tie swords (assuming gear and skill is comparable)
Also kronos fuck yeah :3
autumn tiger
ye i realize swords is always gonna be top
but for 90% of guilds dagger on horde can compete imo
theres benefits, those daggers should go to someone on horde
plus also daggers is easier to itemize for weapon skill with muggers belt and aged core leather gloves
blissful locust
til:beeing undead gives me more stamina
spark raptor
Troll has highest base ap, huh
autumn tiger
bezerking 
novel cape
is there a release date yet for wow classic?
autumn tiger
not yet @novel cape 😦 they said this summer tho
novel cape
wasn't there like classic servers that were shutdown
plucky nymph
Probably.
lyric cradle
there have been private servers for years, and im sure they still exist
Blizz forced one of the most popular ones to shut down a couple years back though which is probably what you are thinking of
outer grail
seems like end of summer tbh else Alpha would have been out.
anyway i dont mind the wait i dont want it to be rushed although i really cant wait to play cause i really hate bfa. but can wait a bit more to be polished
hybrid zealot
Classic polished. Lol. Then it's not vanilla.
autumn tiger
weary island
he's also responsible for a lot of the scuffed systems in BfA so it's a wash imo
¯_(ツ)_/¯
blissful locust
tbf, guy is working all day on wow, probably has better stuff too do then play it on the night then
dusk crystal
doesnt take that much time and he obviously does raid so that takes time
looks like he is 5/9 M
blissful locust
5/9 in this tier is pretty casual lol
outer grail
@hybrid zealot By polished i mean same as vanilla. Since the engine is the new one it has a lot of tweaks to work on.
And about this post i really want as hell to believe it but yeah I dont like at all the direction wow got over several years so i am just not that optimistic. #fingerscrossed
plucky nymph
Nonetheless, we’ve fixed some fairly high-priority issues:
Dodge, Parry, and Miss were all not happening often enough.
Oh yeah, fuck me up.
autumn tiger
i got no idea how they gonna release in 5months if they still fixing huge bugs like that
plucky nymph
That could have been fixed literally moments after the beta ended but they are reporting on it now.
autumn tiger
they didn't mention that much else
literally fixing warlock pets is a line item
thats how little they have done it seems
autumn tiger
@plucky nymph so you think their gonna make their Summer 2019 release?
cuz im losing faith a bit...
plucky nymph
Yeah sure, ezpz.
autumn tiger
😄
plucky nymph
Will it be perfect? No. Not possible.
autumn tiger
hopefully more polished than BfA lul
plucky nymph
Yeah will see heh.
Least there are way fewer systems and loot acquisition vectors to mangle.
blissful locust
well, classic will be pretty bug free after a while if they dont add new stuff
because......weeeell.....cant get big new bugs without new stuff comming
plucky nymph
What that's not how programming works at all! Especially due to the inverse spaghetti they are designing.
autumn tiger
ye backtracking with that old database on a modern client
seems way more complicated actually
plucky nymph
IIRC they're still using the modern line templating so there should not be any REAL issues with DB calls and getting mangled information.
That plus the conversions can be mostly automated if you have anyone with a brain doin git.
weary island
also didnt they streamline how the engine produces damage values?
and how it calculates them
plucky nymph
They've done that a few times over the years.
Importantly for the "new" DB item/spell database they're using their more modern technique for managing those IDs so they take up less space and take less time to deliver.
Classic is on CASC as well and not MDQ me thinks?
blissful locust
i meant more in that way
that it will ''run out of bugs'' after a while if they dont add new content
and most bugs/broken stuff etc...simply lets fixed
plucky nymph
Not possible, as fixing bugs can easily introduce new bugs.
The best example that I can think of that, that I keep bringing up when this is talked about is that there was a patch in/around TBC, that changed nothing publicly known to crafting at all; yet you could no longer DE cloth.
willow moss
Hey guys, I have some questions about alliance rogues in classic, I was wondering what the best leveling routes might be, talent setups, and what abilities I might want to get asap or skip (rolling human)
weary island
pins have builds/talents, leveling route is easily googled
outer grail
personally it really comes down to if you play pvp or pve server and if you will get invloved in pvp or not while lvling.
tepid widget
just use thottbot for all your needs
autumn tiger
@willow moss most people suggest combat swords for leveling but it's not the best for pvp. As far as skills you can skip out on a lot of the situational stuff to save money, just get the core abilities u use while grinding
Leveling guides check out monkey news play through or jainas play through, vanillaguide addon for 1.12 servers
willow moss
thanks for the info guys! C:
autumn tiger
np
tepid widget
Riposte crits ❤
fierce arrow
What's the "best"/most popular vanilla pserver atm?
autumn tiger
lights hope
obsidian jay
Assuming it's done getting ddos'd 
willow moss
if a blizzard employee ever tries to ban you for "playing on a pserver" tell them when you said pserver you meant public server
jade hatch
Back in vanilla when rogues used to switch targets, they would lose combo points. However, does anybody know if you could use focus-target macros to blind/kick without losing your combo points? Also, what happened if you gouged/kidneyshot an off-target?
raven snow
Blind kick was fine. Combo points stayed on whoever you generated on. When you switched targets and started generating points on the new,.old ones were lost
jade hatch
I don't remember the part of when you lose combo points. Do you lose them when swapping targets with TAB, or do you also have to generate a combo point on the new target?
For gouge, clearly you lose your current combo points as you generate a combo point on the focus target.
What about Kidney Shot though? In any case kidneyshot would consume all combo points anyway. But, do you get to have a full combo-point KS on your focus?
raven snow
When you generate.
Points won't xfer. So you either spend them on your current or lose them
outer grail
i remember if you change target insta lose combo but maybe i am wrong
weary island
you do
ivory pagoda
You can't /cast [@focus] kidney if i'm not mistaken
spark raptor
Focus is tbc, and you lose your cp when you switch targets. You can untarget and retarget tho
autumn tiger
really good news
biggest thing now is the honor system imo
also multiboxing is a big issue since it's been allowed on retail forever but poses specific problems in vanilla
lyric cradle
it has been massively limited since vanilla though
i don't see them allowing 40 person multiboxes again just cause it happened in vanilla
autumn tiger
I hope not
lyric cradle
I imagine if you could pay for 40 accounts every month, having a powerful PC wouldn't be a problem
that's more than some people pay in rent just in sub fees
autumn tiger
it did but PCs weren't powerful enough to do things like 40man raids like modern PCs can do
how does multiboxing work on retail? don't they have some unique rules
lyric cradle
yeah, like i think you cant use follow in battlegrounds and stuff like that now
neon spear
I remember shaman multiboxers in vanilla
drowsy phoenix
damn zug zugs
tulip blade
!help
autumn tiger
I am here to help you
storm fjord
I cant wait for the complete mess where people have no clue what they are doing. I watched a video of someone trying to do the quests and the auto quest text was disabled and they never let the text fixed and ran off thinking they had the quest and were looking at the map to show them where to go
fair carbon
That’s what Questie is for
lyric cradle
fallen panther
W
W
hexed berry
on the one hand, I get that it reduces CS load, on the other, loot ninjaing is part of the classic experience. they're removing a layer of community in doing so.
lyric cradle
its not like it will stop ninja looting cause you don't have to trade
im sure people would lose their minds if ML wasn't in classic though
hexed berry
I do think it's a better solution to just not have trades and not offer CS solutions to that stuff, isn't that basically how vanilla worked? if you contacted CS about a bad RL stealing everything, they just told you that you got boned?
onyx stag
Sorry if it has been asked before, are you suposed to lose combo points on target swap or when you generate combo points on a new target in 1.12
weary island
yes when u change targets u lose cp
ivory pagoda
The loot trading change isn't meant to prevent ninjalooting, but to correct mistakes in loot distribution
lime arrow
@onyx stag rogues didn't get redirect until level 81 in cata. That let you move combo points from one target to another. Prior to cata you needed to actually perform a combo on someone to get combo points
lyric cradle
Pretty sure he means do you lose your points on your last target if you target someone else
lime arrow
It's not a combo anymore If u start hitting someone else xD
I don't remember if just looking at someone removed them
But hitting definitely should
drowsy phoenix
the power of energy pooling to prevent CP loss
manic hound
In classic you could have combo points on Target 1, switch to Target 2 and use non CP generators, and keep your CP up on Target 1.
spark raptor
I'll try to find something in popular rogue vids tomorrow. I dont think there is a single offtarget blind with cps in all roguecraft vids
Quite sure for ep1, not so sure on the others
onyx stag
@lime arrow Yeah I know that much, just been playing private servers to sate my need for Classic for now, but I noticed when I un-target a mob the combo points disapear, without actually generating new combos on a different target, I barely remember Vanilla and can't reemember if that was the original design or if a private server issue.
@odd lake I don't really know who to ask this question to, but Ravenholdt always been a home for Shadowcraft, do you think since Classic is an already established game that will basically remain the same that Shadowcraft can make a return and serve a new-old purpose.
odd lake
I doubt it - but I think @meager peak and @ancient zenith are best equipped to answer.
onyx stag
Thanks for the reply/tags, I honestly forgot who where the heroes who maintained ShC.
meager peak
As always it would depend on whether we can get someone interested enough to work on the engine. That was the true issue when we shut it down.
And whether blizzard provides character API data for classic, which last time I heard they hadn't committed to yet.
ancient zenith
^ I wonder if someone has backups of old spreadsheets, even. Anyway, personally, I'm not too interested in bothering with classic support, to be honest.
onyx stag
Ah fair enough, lowkey hoping it somehow happens
lyric cradle
im sure there will be people interested in doing it
spark raptor
spell batching will be in classic. it's the real deal.
vanish resist, breaking cc with sappers :>>
plucky nymph
Great. > _>"
spark raptor
yes, it's great. you do great shit in pvp with it, doesnt affect anything else really
hexed berry
can you summarize what spell batching is for me? when I played vanilla all I did was sneak around and go places I shouldn't.
plucky nymph
Server updates batches of spells faster now than it used to.
hexed berry
I think I got it... I just learned to google.
plucky nymph
So in the past it was easier for two mages to poly each other than it is now.
spark raptor
it's related to server tick rate. im not sure what the rate it happens at was, but let's say it's 200ms. so every 200ms the server processes all activity it's fed
hexed berry
basically your spells are added to a queue?
spark raptor
the queue window is bigger
hexed berry
right, so in some server time frame it accepts spells, then deploys them all at the same time?
plucky nymph
But they're not a queue, it's done in batches.
spark raptor
like, you can gouge a mage when he presses blink, and he'll blink and teleport away, but be gouged
plucky nymph
WoW and MMOs all function by processing spells in batches.
hexed berry
yeah, I guess it's sort of the opposite of a queue
plucky nymph
With different priorities.
spark raptor
it's easier to have stuff happen at the same time. its still like this today, but you never see it because the window is so small
plucky nymph
Now the batches are processed quickly, in Vanilla it was much slower.
In Vanilla you can have the SUPER AWESOME GAMEPLAY of two warriors charging at each, changing places, and waddling at each other.
hexed berry
I see, essentially a latency mitigating mechanic, but it results in some possibilities that otherwise can't happen
plucky nymph
Nah it's just how the server processes spell casts.
hexed berry
right, but it was processing it that way to help mitigate the appearance of latency was it not?
spark raptor
20ms is pretty close to 1 frame in a 60fps game (16,66ms)
hexed berry
you can easily notice a 200ms delay though
plucky nymph
You cannot notice 200ms server tick rate when the client/server is sync'd, MMOs don't move that fast.
spark raptor
and yeah you'll notice a difference
like, in old wow, when a rogue with sprint runs circles around you, it looks quite wild, especially if youre lagging a bit
because of the large/slower batches
hexed berry
ok, so you're saying the batches are processed every 200 ms vs maybe 20ms now?
spark raptor
i dont know waht the numbers actually are, but yeah something like that
hexed berry
even in a synced game, I'm pretty sure that would be noticeable if you put in your ability right at the start of the batch.
spark raptor
if you press sininster strike exactly once
at the beginning of the batch
maybe. but who presses sinister strike once?
hexed berry
good point
plucky nymph
Yeah due to the spamminess of the game you tend to fill things, client sends, server accepts, things are OK.
Finding this is a little annoying > _>
spark raptor
im not sure if im imagining things, but i feel i remember in old vurtne vids when when he pressed counterspell ,sometimes the button would stay "pressed" on his bar for a really long time sometimes
why annoying, this is great, you can delibaretely use this to read oponents and punish them
rogue is probably the best class in a spellbatching world
plucky nymph
That could just have easily have been clientside lag.
The Spell Queue has removed most of this weirdness.
spark raptor
no, if it's clientside lag, you dont press your button
plucky nymph
Though for a time the WoW UI processed client side spell activation on release as well, but lit the button up the entire time > _>
spark raptor
ah you mean the vurtne thing, yeah youre right that can be
plucky nymph
and you can see the clientside lag now function the same as you described by lagging hard and mashing your entire fucking action bar, it will light up but not process.
Either way it could be a few things o _O
spark raptor
yeah
plucky nymph
and I very much doubt that WoW servers run at a 20ms tick rate, that's much too quickly for an MMO > _> though might be the cause of some problems.
or at least, that the spell batches are done @ 20ms.
Wish they would have said > _>
spark raptor
yeah i agree <.< still, 50 updates per second dont sound excessive, with sharding and all that crap
plucky nymph
Server virtualization shouldn't influence anything IIRC, you just scale it all out and get similar performance MOST OF THE TIME.
spark raptor
though servers go to total shit in stormsong when the pvp even is there :v)
i've seen private servers handling mass pvp better
spark raptor
nah i've seen proper 150vs 150 shit
at ahn'qiraj and mugambala
not mugambala
the zandalari island in STV
yoya something
plucky nymph
I do think that Blizzard segments things in a regional sense, and there are simply hundreds of people in the same place and it causes lag due to a few factions.
So while things are sharded, you're still kinda there.
spark raptor
yeah, but only that zone is affected then
lyric cradle
pretty sure the blog did clarify that spell batches currently run at 20 ms
plucky nymph
That's much too fast > _>
or could have just been an example.
spark raptor
"50fps"
lyric cradle
well not every batch runs at the same speed it sounds like
spells are given highest priority
spark raptor
ah yeah true, vanilla only has 1 level of priority for everything i guess
plucky nymph
Yeah there is priority processing but that's within batches.
Like if Poly is low-prio and Kick is high-prio in the same batch the kick will process first.
I wonder what is in the high-prio batch loop in Classic if spell casts are low-prio > _>
lyric cradle
who knows
spark raptor
isnt there only 1 priority level for everything? or did i misread?
plucky nymph
They infer in the most recent blue post that spells are being moved to low-prio in Classic.
lyric cradle
i dont remember reading that but its possible
plucky nymph
meaning on Retail they are high-prio.
spark raptor
yeah, so everything is "low prio" now i guess?
plucky nymph
For WoW Classic, we’re moving spell casts to a low-priority loop that will cause them to be processed at the frequency that best fits how the game actually played in version 1.12.
i dont think they are going to tell us that
cause there probably will be things at a higher priority, i couldnt tell you what though
spark raptor
i wonder if player coordinates are in those batches, or if theyre somehow interpolated client side
lyric cradle
yeah i was thinking maybe interactions with things out in the world
plucky nymph
Like NPC interactions and quest completion.
Because that's just fucking annoying when it's slow.
drowsy phoenix
deathwing didnt destroy the barrens, chuck norris just roundhouse kicked too hard
spark raptor
Does he have anal [Relentless Strikes] tho
daring thunder
yes
tame palm
I am looking forward to being a rogue in classic! Going to be a meme burst spec for PvP with a friend who is also a rogue
neon spear
Will weapon swap during combat be possible in classic?
lyric cradle
I believe so, I think it has just been other slots that have been restricted in the past
neon spear
Well it was because of rogues that they changed it I think. The dagger ambush -> switch to swords for more damage or such
wraith parcel
Weapon swap has been in the game always afaik, it just takes up a global cooldown to swap
Whereas swapping trinkets with vanish used to be possible in vanilla but isnt in later expansions
ivory pagoda
Swapping trinkets with vanish is possible outside of combat
Basically world pvp and rbg
Or random bg
lyric cradle
thick sinew
finallllyyyyyyyy
ruby bridge
weary island
late 😡
ruby bridge
yes, sry
shy ether
You guys think 2 to 3h a day is enough to play classic wow?
lyric cradle
just depends on your goals I guess
if you are aiming for top tier in pvp, no lol
but even for raiding I think that will be fine, I imagine there will be a ton of people in the same boat who don't have 8 hours per day to devote like they used to
blissful locust
lvling will be WAY faster because now people actually know wath they are doing/fast rotues are well known