and every week hit sim and afk for 8 hours
#assassination
low girder
rofl
balmy condor
I did a gem sim for someone a couple weeks ago
and let me tell you
raidbots is nutty
took my PC 9 hours and 47 minutes to get through it
low girder
i imagine, raidbots' gem sim at the regular tier was like over an hour for me
balmy condor
idk why flag zoldyck is so low
I'll have to check
if i messed up
I don't see anything though
honest vessel
this is compared to kyrian right?
balmy condor
seems like its actually just that bad
yes
kyrian/pelagos/lethal poison 7 is the base
grizzled bough
isnt flag not woorking rn? like it gives 0%?
balmy condor
venthyr/theotar/lethal poison 7 is all the flag ones
honest vessel
sad
balmy condor
flag is working on sims
giving reasonable dps numbers and buff uptimes
pelagos too strong
well pelagos/kyrian
surreal solar
got time for Night fae niya?
balmy condor
you think I don't have time?
surreal solar
i didnt know if you needed sleep brohan
honest vessel
lmfao
surreal solar
shrug some people work 3rd shift
surreal solar
<- still has job, is smol job, wouldve made more from unemployment
balmy condor
dungeonslice first :)
low girder
i'm ready for the slaughter of MA
surreal solar
i don't think many will use with the 2seconds
low girder
it's not as bad as i thought it could be in ST
but i imagine dungeonslice it'll be much worse
we'll see
i expect zoldyck tbh
actually wait there's no affixes, maybe not
fleet whale
so it appears that Kyrian is still simming the best, but it doesn't appear that you wouldn't be punished too hard if you go venthyr
low girder
lmao
balmy condor
dungeon slice
low girder
LOL
balmy condor
I thought it looked weird
low girder
i was trying to figure out why MA was so high
balmy condor
looked at a profile
peak swift
killing our dreams!
low girder
rofl
peak swift
include venthyr for us ❤️
balmy condor
sure
fleet whale
so with doomblade back....
what if blizz replaces Venom rush with Agonizing poison lol
balmy condor
shut
surreal solar
uhhh
tawny shell
sand flax
lmao
surreal solar
we dont need all the FotM's
honest vessel
what was agonizing poison?
fleet whale
and punished you very hard for target swapping
honest vessel
was it like stacking DP overtime
fleet whale
no, it replaced DP
it had a 20% base to proc
50% with envenom
and it stacked 5 times
surreal solar
it was a lethal, that made deadly poison look like a small package of stomachache
fleet whale
openers could be very frustrating with bad rng
jolly comet
honest vessel
yeah that sounds p awful lmfao
low girder
stacking dmg increase, scaling with mastery
fleet whale
funny thing is
low girder
it was awful
fleet whale
people actually were upset when it got removed lol
fleet whale
the fact that people were so upset that it was gone
just shows me that many players care more about their numbers than gameplay
low girder
agp on helya was miserable
honest vessel
i imagine with perfect rng combined with PB youd absolutely pop off
low girder
jesus
honest vessel
but the other side of the coin would be v sad
fleet whale
the spec was also like 35 apm with agonizing
so with the dashing scoundrel nerf
34% crit might be mandatory again
to make up for the lost crit
balmy condor
low girder
eh that's fine
balmy condor
venthyr is so bad that its always just worse than kyrian lmao
low girder
rip
peak swift
damn you pelagos
low girder
wait
crimson palm
venthyr needs an apl change now
balmy condor
yeah
crimson palm
that haste during vendetta is huge
balmy condor
probably
fleet whale
will venthyr bring life to exsang
surreal solar
ew
crimson palm
could be
low girder
'We’ve recently had internal discussions about our tuning targets for Legendaries and concluded that we were aiming too low with respect to their power.'
wut
fleet whale
yeah sl stuff for sin seems far more focused on poisons
balmy condor
smh
fleet whale
so exsang essentially pretty much is just a ghetto Adrenaline rush in SL
jolly comet
"hey we nerfed all this shit but realized we didn't mean it"
burnt ledge
whack-a-mole development
simple ore
Anyone compared ptr to beta for sin rogues in pvp? Ptr I feel absolutely weak as hell
fleet whale
well you don't have toxic blade anymore
fleet whale
that's probably a big reason
low girder
probably not, ptr/prepatch is a meme anyway
low girder
fleet whale
pvp won't be balanced for level 50 anyway so i wouldn't worry about it
balmy condor
@fleet anchor feel free to step on me if I'm talking out of my ass
peak swift
@balmy condor thanks for your service
balmy condor
lunar pelican
How’s ST looking between night fae and the rest?
balmy condor
oh true
fleet anchor
The cooldowns and stacks are different too
fleet anchor
Shadowdust is actually not that bad fwiw
With ER
Or Sepsis
Since it lowers the cooldowns of those
red mango
!guide
prisma monolithBOT
fleet anchor
Also
Probably MA might need some APL tweaks with the smaller window
I'll have to look at it
balmy condor
I mean, realistically was the APL completely optimized to begin with
90% of it was just copy paste the APL from the last 3 expansions and it'll be fine anyway
idk how much ambush shenanigans there really are
drifting light
Shadowdust works with fae vanish?
drifting light
Interesting
low girder
in most cases they're rogue abilities and modified by our stuff
except the sepsis dot is kinda weird
balmy condor
its all a little weird
@fleet anchor shadowdust still behind tho eh
also @lunar pelican I think you were the one that wanted night fae ST
fleet anchor
Yeah Shadowdust is weakest for Assassination
It's about 1% stronger for the other specs
balmy condor
I see
fleet anchor
But there are some fringe benefits
balmy condor
yeah I assume there could be some fight timing stuff
fleet anchor
Like having a lower effective cooldown on shroud
lunar pelican
@balmy condor thank you!
fleet anchor
Sepsis + Shadowdust cuts like 60-90 seconds off shroud's cooldown lol
I guess slightly lower now after the nerf
balmy condor
cuts 10 seconds off of tricks
fleet anchor
So it's kinda neat
fleet anchor
Shadowdust probably gonna be used for some PvP situations too I suspect
fleet anchor
I mean like.. especially now with everything down at like 5% damage
balmy condor
smoke bomb seems pretty gud
balmy condor
ye or that
low girder
they're getting buffed again
fleet anchor
No I'm pretty sure ours are staying
A bunch of specs were nerfed to like 2-3%
Ours are around 5% already
low girder
rip
drifting light
Yeah Shadowdust is weakest for Assassination
@fleet anchor such a shame
fleet anchor
Well the main issue for Assassination being that only bumping Vendetta cooldown doesn't do a ton
So it's like Vendetta+Shiv
Since it doesn't affect Vanish itself
tepid fractal
god i hate blizzard. MA was such a fun legendary, why nerf again?
honest vessel
it's cool, but nothing wrong with having different cool things
grizzled jay
Doomblade being better than Dashing Scoundrel hmm
@balmy condor Have you sim'd Sephuz's?
balmy condor
succ
grizzled jay
huh
grizzled jay
well of course it is conditional
but if you can meet that condition every 30s is it good
grizzled jay
well im more talking for M+
balmy condor
:(
prisma yoke
is necrolords not even worth simming right now for sin?
prisma yoke
balmy condor
Doomblade > zoldyck > dashing
Kyrian > night fae > flag > necrolord
grizzled jay
SBS is still good on specific, niche fights. It'll be good on Sire, Council as two examples.
Which might make it good enough to take for raiding.
balmy condor
Is it though
It’s a fair chunk worse in single target, and significantly worse in aoe/cleave
tough skiff
Which covenant will shine for M+?
balmy condor
kyrian
tough skiff
I hope they nerf kyrian is my least favorite 😕
balmy condor
night fae is close enough if you really don't want to go kyrian
tough skiff
I like night fae more, but that spell reseting mobs will be a pain or they fixed that?
balmy condor
it still does that
will realistically only matter while leveling
in dungeons/raids it won't matter at all since you have a party
tough skiff
Or doing world quests, we spend a lot of time doing world quests
tough skiff
No fix today for rogues?
tough skiff
The bis changed?
balmy condor
yes
tough skiff
I guess we have to wait for SL first few weeks I bet there will be even more fix/nerf after launch
icy ember
ye go look in #tc-research they have sims posted there
tough skiff
Thx
balmy condor
yep mystler posted some sims results
they're similar to my results as well if you scroll up in this channel as well
if you prefer a bar graph
teal kettle
the fuck am I gonna do with a 2 second mantle
lunar pelican
I doubt that will stay, but who knows.
balmy condor
2 seconds actually seems pretty good in m+
3 might make it go to again
for night fae
but its only about ~1% behind zoldyck
probably lower in practice tbh
ocean ruin
Is shiv used on cd?
balmy condor
just like tb yes
you can pool a little beforehand
but the same rules apply to shiv as did to tb
ocean ruin
kk thanks
balmy condor
np friend
grizzled jay
@balmy condor Well at the end of the day, the only Covenant that matters for raiding is the one that is best on the last boss, as you'll spend 1.5-3 months on that boss. SBS will be good on Sire, comparatively to ER.
You'll do worse on the other 9 fights, but at least it'll pull its weight there.
balmy condor
idk im unconvinced
fleet whale
I mean doesn't that also depend on what your raid comp needs?
like even if SBS leads to more overall damage to Sire, it might still be better to go Kyrian or night fae etc. if you need more boss damage
balmy condor
the thing is even then, I don't see how sbs is going to be more damage
considering its worse on every target count and duration
its a sizable margin behind in single target, and falls off even more in aoe
and it just gets worse with more and more
fleet whale
kyrian and Night fae are also burstier
balmy condor
so if you need prio damage, its worse
fleet whale
which can be very important in progress
fleet whale
maybe if uptime is a huge issue?
balmy condor
would need to be a lot of uptime
and you can usually plan your cds around it
and hold for the parts you need on prog
so that seems like a shaky argument as well imo
fallow otter
Damage windows in a fight are very important for prog and consistency, it's why alot of us play blood when clf sims higher
The only reason sbs will ever be better is if we afk behind a wall for a long time for a mechanic while it can tick away
But it's way too early to call with hopefully many balance passes to come
- prays to the gods*
surreal solar
nah, Night Fae looks fine enough
- the free stuffs
aint just "use this in world content for a temporary 5min dmg boost"
fallow otter
These nerfs to all the legends just make MA look better and better which sucks donkey dick coz im sick of it
grizzled jay
@fleet whale On Sire, SBS would deal double damage to Sire as all damage on the Sword is dealt to Sire. So SBS is basically 2x ticking on Sire.
Over a 5 minute fight, SBS will tick 100 times, that's 1000% AP. Over a 5 minute fight, you can ER 6 times, that's 720% AP. So the CP and Animacharged needs to be worth 280% AP for it to be better on ST. Which I believe it is. But then you have two SBS rolling over 5 minutes, that's 2000% AP and now the Animacharged and CP needs to be worth 1280% AP, which is obviously isn't. So SBS is better on exactly 2+ boss fights.
So Council, Sire are two fights where SBS is gonna be competitive and might even parse highest.
Maybe even Huntsman as he takes damage the bears take.
fallow otter
Doomblade > zoldyck > dashing
Kyrian > night fae > flag > necrolord
@balmy condor these new rankings after today's neutering?
balmy condor
yes
grizzled jay
what was changed about Flagellation
grizzled jay
haste over mastery is questionable. what do you mean by stacks up instead of down
balmy condor
you cast, it slaps, you finish, it slaps
at 40 slaps, it caps at 20% haste
you pull it out
repeat
grizzled jay
that explanation does not translate to how 'it stacks up instead of down' is a change, or what 'stacking up' means in relation to 'stacking down'
so now im confused
grizzled jay
when was this
balmy condor
idk
dim crystal
visible confusion
grizzled jay
all they did was make the payoff higher
but using 40 CP as Sin is gonna be hard. is it still in 45s?
balmy condor
ye
grizzled jay
rough
grizzled jay
they brought the base power level of legendaries down so they can re-evaluate them is what the blue post said
dim crystal
other than sin I might alt 2h frost obliterate build tbh
balmy condor
~5% seems to be where they want it
I heard a lot of other classes are ~2-3%
but our legos seem good
dim crystal
i hate that sub has been so op on the beta, i hate the sub playstyle and rotation for some reason. Sin flows so much better imo
dim crystal
grizzled jay
@balmy condor eh a few need work, like Bloodfang, Tiny Toxic, Dustwalker's, The Rotten
vestal wren
Updated Legendary chart:
shadow tulip
Ty
vestal wren
i rly like that MA (the talent) seems like a good option for st
(see mystlers post in #tc-research )
strange python
dear how bad master assassins is
balmy condor
yeah, doesn't help that MA the talent is good
and MA the legendary just overkills it
strange python
Blizzard should fix the basics > talents etc
shrewd night
Welcome to my ted talk: Topics today - There shouldnt be talents and leggos existing at the same time, giving the same kind of bonus.
balmy condor
lazy legendary designing
vestal wren
dear how bad master assassins is
i think the ma nerf will be the most hated one, but it probably gets a buff again... see the bluepost
shrewd night
But then again
MA was arguably the most divisive and hated rogue legendary from the old tier
strange python
i am fine with zoldy, my most loved leg in legion
dustwalker makes no sense for me too
fast nacelle
MA deserves the nerf the most
balmy condor
zoldyck is a crowd favorite tbh
fast nacelle
its toxic for m+ and makes rogue just too strong in m+
it was an issue in legion already
i think 3 sec MA is fine - 3 globals dont feel bad
golden marten
Hi guys anybody tested assa rogue on arena in SL beta?
golden marten
Ty ❤️
balmy condor
yup yup
shrewd night
MA was too strong in legion, just imagine how strong it is comparatively with all our restealths now
strange python
exe exe execute ❤️
vestal wren
hated rogue legendary
ye i also got the feeling that its the most hated from all the pings and dm's i got when it was not top on the legendary charts and also all the questions if sepsis + ma is now bis because other combinations can gtfo
pseudo hamlet
How many legendary item will be able to wear in SL? Is it 2 or 1?
shrewd night
I hope they dont, because thats going to be stupid op for some classes 
pseudo hamlet
Yeah, was wondering the same. 🙂
I have an additional question. What do you guys think about covenants right now? I mean, which one is the most practical for all the content?
balmy condor
kryian
pseudo hamlet
I know that Kyrian is best for ST, but is it that good for M+ or PvP? I was wondering about Necrolords.
balmy condor
there's a dungeonslice sim in the pins as well
necrolord is a little too weak for anything atm
sand pewter
oh wow they really smacked some of those legendaries huh
pseudo hamlet
Oh, okay then. Thanks for the help. 🙂 I know that there will be plenty of tunings still, but wanted to know your opinion about the situation right now.
winter gale
delicate bone
lmao, thats a little dramatic, you think?
somber bison
Stealthy angel 
somber bison
Do we get angel form instead of cheat death ?
amber quail
🤔 Nice idea
somber bison
amber quail
I’ve The feeling that DEV intervein on which community play...a bad feeling.I think them might modify what ppl DON’T
delicate bone
you literally are not becoming the covenant, you are helping out the covenant essentially, it really doesnt matter what you choose unless you love the mogs
i plan to pick thebest performing one in the end
amber quail
Mogs are 15% of dps if not more 🤩
If you dress a good suit feel better and more productive
somber bison
You sayin i dont have to repent all my rouguely sins ?
amber quail
Same your char😉
delicate bone
if thats the case, all the cov mogs are pretty trash
the CN leather mog is much better
proven moth
So I redeem all the sins I had as a rogue to return cath School to top dps? 
somber bison
proven moth
strange python
Anyone know how our rotation will be in prepatch?
Assuming using the standard exsang/CT build currently
vestal wren
!guide
prisma monolithBOT
vestal wren
wowhead guide is updated for pre patch
strange python
Oh nice, thanks fuu 🙂
meager oriole
So, no Slice and Dice in Pre-Patch (lvl 56)
royal lantern
prepatch will be funky anyway
no toxicblade
and exsang will probably slide into unplayable again
sooooo^^
humble tiger
Hey firends! how do i use Orc Racial as a assa rogue?
royal lantern
what is the orc racial again lol
strange python
Just macro it with vendetta
@meager oriole we have Slice and Dice in prepatch
Level 9
Rank 2 is at 56
meager oriole
ah, ok
ember mural
damage part yes, energy part no
potent gorge
Thanks
untold stream
Oh damn, this occured with the last week(s) nerfs ? Anything but Kyrian and Pelagos 😢 It's the same for Sub too, why did they nerf it so badly
loud light
keep in mind flagellate changed and got way stronger yesterday too
this stuff is going to see-saw for a while
we will observe it
placid dawn
did blizz really make the leggo only give 2 secs of 100% crit?
icy ember
ye they made it worse than the real talent that replaced it years ago
tho that is only 50% so it requires the extra global
and for sin idk, for outlaw/sub it kinda feels better cuz you gotta open w/out garrote/ruptures
placid dawn
man, i miss the days whith 12 seconds 100% crit opener, super fun
wide ridge
i thought venthyr would sim better after flagellation rework, 4th is yuck
fleet thorn
idk if flag has been simed yet. I saw someone sim kyrian with different legos
nvm looks like it has been simmed, though the details of those sims are unclear (what lego used and etc)
drifting light
Ugh
vestal wren
we vr gamers now?
fleet thorn
drifting light
They better buff it through the roof so it compete with alacrity
Both boring anyways
vestal wren
the notes seem a bit wonky tho
thorny jasper
is toxic blade just gone on prepatch or does shiv function as tb? i dont remember
vestal wren
it does not in pre patch
sand flax
it gets a passive at like 58 that makes it function as tb
vestal wren
but in sl
balmy condor
Fuu helping in my channel dude wth
All the questions answered after a 4 hour afk man feels good you guys are sick
placid cobalt
hi guys are there updated covenant sims with flagellation changes?
placid cobalt
thanks, how do they match up compared kirian?
oh nice
id rather play venthir than kyrian XD
balmy condor
I’m trying to find my sims from earlier
placid cobalt
not that it matters anyway, im sure they will tune this stuff 20 more times
balmy condor
Hm
I don’t actually see any direct comparisons
@placid cobalt do you want with legos/soulbinds/conduits or nah
actually I can do both lul
hasty vale
Quick question for prepatch, with darkheart still being a thing will we still be able to play the bleed spec?
hasty vale
Which would be the best heading into prepatch? I figured back to crit build ya?
balmy condor
bout 2-3% behind
I have a sim for that
the second one is VoP major
with 3x NP
hasty vale
Hmmm
balmy condor
@placid cobalt here's the direct comparison
its oppressively strong
probably will get tuned down
hasty vale
Looks like crit double dose nothing persional it is then lol
balmy condor
That’s still with haste
hasty vale
Oh nice
balmy condor
I think I simmed crit build and they were just worse
I can double check in a little bit
balmy condor
Yeah
8 energy won’t be enough to fight alacrity
Especially not in m+ for example where we don’t even mut
low girder
yeah
has CS only given 1 CP for a bit too? don't remember seeing that either but went and checked ptr and sure enough
balmy condor
Has what now
low girder
cheap shot
low girder
hmm
balmy condor
That’s been like that since uh.... last week?
placid cobalt
@balmy condor thanks man! appreciated
vestal wren
the problem with flag is that its not working, so the implementation is more a speculation and even if its op its not usable
vital haven
TRUE lmao
civic palm
butmeebeenot 
balmy condor
butitis 
civic palm
justUwatch
drifting light
@civic palm u supporting/updating ur WAs for SLs?
civic palm
Likely.
drifting light
Cool, tks
fleet whale
remove venom rush
tough skiff
How much energy would be competitive for venom rush?
balmy condor
more than 7
more than 10
I think once you get to 15, it'll get there
but that's all feelycraft
fleet whale
idk maybe it's better than exsang now
tough skiff
8 energy now after hotfix
balmy condor
yeah
fleet whale
but exsang is trash in SL, 10% haste is too good
balmy condor
still bad at 8
fleet whale
maim mangle would probably have higher value i guess
balmy condor
CT never coming back
fleet whale
I imagine VR would lead to more casts per fight when compared to Alac, but haste does a lot more overall
more auto attacks, more poison procs, faster bleeds
balmy condor
yep
fleet whale
Poor exsang though... It;s probably the dumpster talent now
obtuse anvil
fleet whale
To be fair assassination tuning should be easy
buff envenom for sure
like ambush seems to hit as hard, if not harder, than envenom
unless you get that mastery up
kind eagle
anyone ever tried Hidden Blades over CT for FH boosting?
kind eagle
i have 3x EB just didn't know if one was better than the other
mental trout
fleet whale
would be funny if VR sims higher now in pure st lol
balmy condor
fleet whale
i guess on the plus side it should be quite nice for sin leveling
balmy condor
I refuse
grizzled jay
Whispyr is afraid VR is now bis LMAO
fleet whale
i mean in pure ST
it likely wouldn't feel all that different from alac
and it's not like were losing a button lol
if VR is bis will any of you be mad?
balmy condor
I will be
prisma yoke
any passive on a row being BiS is an absolute win 
fleet whale
well alac is passive and is bis
prisma yoke
yeah, but i wouldn't mind VR being it instead
drifting cloud
if they remove VR we wouldnt even notice
when was the last time you played that shit
fleet whale
Legion when the talent was actually good
cause it made your bleed ticks give more energy
but i don't think i've seen a single person use VR in BFA
and i'm not digging through all the logs to find one lol
sand pewter
vr needs a rework, boring talent
fleet whale
or it just needs to be replaced
marble hemlock
VR is fine if its actually tuned to a point where even at super low levels of haste its already trash
what i mean is, if its already bad early expac, itll only get worse
sand pewter
its not that its a passive effect, its that its just a low amount of energy generation
we already have talents that change our resource system that are much more interesting
marble hemlock
eh, its a 15% energy cost reduction on our main builder
thats pretty significant
on a spec with low resource gen
fleet whale
i'm just curious for VR sims
low girder
lol
low girder
it's a refund right
wait
yeah refund, i've literally never used it, is it in the combat log if it's a refund?
i doubt i'd be able to notice it otherwise, i guess i could log
balmy condor
yeah kinda weird tbh
fallow otter
Lucid dreams?
balmy condor
there's no PTR branch of simc
low girder
yeah i'm just curious if i could read combat log to see if it's actually 8 on ptr
if i have to log i can but zz
low girder
hmm
balmy condor
so it's giving ~420 energy
with 8, it would give ~680
either way at 5 its really bad
so unless 3 extra energy on it makes it worth 9% magically
200 dps is probably going to need a bit more than 3 energy
vital haven
man i liked that talent row in bfa
you had toxic blade and exsang
two different abilites
they complemented different azerite traits
both of them got some time in the spotlight throughout bfa
fleet whale
yeah but now exsang is dead
low girder
and they need to figure out exsang yeah
fleet whale
idk if alac needs to be tuned down
i don't think any part of sin needs tuning down lol
low girder
i mean that's just numbers
i don't think the spec is in a good spot numbers wise
but i think alacrity is too much for a never-think-about talent
granted, exsang just doesn't have anything buffing it in SL so far
fleet whale
and haste will be lower in general
and idk if exsang will ever be a thing. All the borrowed power for Sin this expansion is mostly centered around poisons
low girder
tbh idk why VR needed to be buffed, how bad would it be if it just became legion VR
so it was actually good
fleet whale
i guess blizz would be worried that sin would become too fast maybe?
low girder
i mean it competes with alacrity
now
so idk
i guess you don't necessarily want two talents that are take and forget
and strong
but we have so many of those
guess it's also a wishlist kinda thing and they had their hands full remaking spriest 3 times and the druid covenant spells like 8 times
strange python
Sim the Story... wtf
balmy condor
hm?
fallow otter
Whisp have you tried scaling up haste for future tiers to see how VR scales in comparison?
balmy condor
don't you dare
fallow otter
I kinda don't want to know
balmy condor
the fact that secondaries scale so bad
probably makes alacrity even better tbh
its always 10%
low girder
if flag stays how it is and gets bugfixed maybe we can make exsang viable
jk it won't
balmy condor
so my feelycraft says that unless we hit gcd cap through like crazy trinket + flag + alacrity
VR will remain dead
amber quail
One SL Worst part of sin numbers are in dmg skill/abilities also
Melee dps in beta is 1st
2nd with ooze
Bleeds and poisons also under trinkets
maybe a little tune on scaling is needed
Or on %of AP spell formula side
Or in %stats secondaies side
I think that increasing amount of AP % is better
quaint sequoia
Do ppl really want exsang to be a thing, I really hate that spell
balmy condor
yea exsang is pretty sick
low girder
it's much more interesting than either TB or alacrity, and VR is a meme, so yeah, i like it, wish they did more with it
amber quail
really to understand: why u love exs?
low girder
it's not a love, i just think it's more interesting than either of the other options. alacrity is take and forget it exists, TB is use on CD, you can pool but it doesn't actually matter in any significant way, and VR is also extremely boring in the same way alacrity is.
at least exsang you have to do something
balmy condor
yep I agree
sin is already a very straightforward, passive class
and exsang is one of the only thing that's actually interesting
quaint sequoia
That what I like with it, simple high (usually) dps. No need to make it more complicated 😛
low girder
you can still have that even if exsang is viable
problem is, it's not. not with the systems we'll have
there isn't anything in these systems that supports it
amber quail
I see a 45sec talents to press on cd that waste single target bleeds. Needs a lot of haste/gear to properly work and (for design) easy to waste
balmy condor
that waste single target bleeds?
amber quail
No, i don’t lke
quaint sequoia
Yea I just feel like is to much set up for it. 🤷♂️
amber quail
With kilothones of haste?
worldly iron
too much setup? 
quaint sequoia
But like to be optimal you want to snapshot it with high haste buffs and stuff aswell.
balmy condor
?
low girder
the only thing you actively try to snapshot is gcb
balmy condor
the only thing you need to be optimal is stand in galecallers every minute
low girder
idk where that comes from
amber quail
You are minding atm in ST scenario
balmy condor
trying to snapshot with anything else is a dps loss
quaint sequoia
yea gcb is more that I wanna do xD yea I know I'm lazy
balmy condor
and raids are the main form of content in this channel
low girder
and SS
balmy condor
and those are mostly single target
shrewd night
amber quail
I’m talking in normal gameplay (no corruption) in multitarget/istante
shrewd night
They are mostly single target to you
balmy condor
damn you right
worldly iron
all we do is pad
low girder
in multitarget you're just refreshing bleeds
amber quail
Istance
low girder
exsang isn't exactly difficult there either
balmy condor
me and my single target mindset
amber quail
and wait 45 sec usually on opening
balmy condor
Huh?
low girder
?
balmy condor
amber quail
But sud with no corruption haste
balmy condor
Waiting to open?
low girder
you realize we went exsang in EN right
shrewd night
If you wait 45 seconds to open as sin, you are playing it wrong.
balmy condor
I use all my cd’s on the trash before the boss
And then sit in stealth while my group pulls
Till it comes back
amber quail
W8 W8
balmy condor
worldly iron
balmy condor
Man this language barrier is brutal
worldly iron
i was gonna say, whispyr
low girder
yeah this is a rough barrier
amber quail
No dmg to next exs
balmy condor
So the complaint is that it’s a burst cd
low girder
do you think TB windows are big dmg?
shrewd night
Imagine having lower damage outside of cds. Man, who'd have thought.
low girder
'cause they're really not
balmy condor
I’m lost
shrewd night
wha-
amber quail
And chained to particular scenario
amber quail
Personale i find TB more versatile
worldly iron
^
amber quail
And a talent that inproove mechanics
low girder
8/25 = ~33% of the time you're target locked
amber quail
class design
worldly iron
what does that mean? you need to play around TB in a particular way, the same way you need to play around exsang in a particular way
fallow otter
Is this a Tb vs exsang versatility discussion?
low girder
pretty much
low girder
you are though. if you're swapping targets you are wasting TB uptime
amber quail
nope
fallow otter
Well if it's about target selection exsang is more versatile
fallow otter
Tb locks you in
amber quail
I said that i dislike
worldly iron
you can dislike exsang however much you like, but you can't make up arguments for it
low girder
he's explaining why he doesn't like exsang but using arguments that don't make any sense
balmy condor
Yeah and then the rest of your arguments have been factually incorrect
worldly iron
that doesn't make sense
amber quail
And many wanna kill me
low girder
i don't want to kill you lmao
amber quail
Cause atm it Sim better
low girder
this is a discussion, no one's mad
shrewd night
sermoneta
worldly iron
no, we're arguing against the points you're making
shrewd night
low girder
same
fallow otter
It's that a so much autocorrect?
balmy condor
Yeah
balmy condor
He might be making a good point
amber quail
😆
amber quail
Sry i’m on Phone
worldly iron
yeah i dunno, based on what we can gather, it doesn't seem like great points
fallow otter
Me 2
shrewd night
If he wants to be suboptimal, thats on him. But fuck me if I accept bullshit arguments for why being suboptimal is better
amber quail
In bus
balmy condor
I mean even putting optimal vs suboptimal to the side
The arguments don’t make sense
fallow otter
Suboptimal and better in the same sentence
low girder
true. yeah like no one's mad, we're just explaining your arguments don't hold up. but that doesn't have anything to do with not liking exsang
balmy condor
As to why he prefers it
worldly iron
"i like X better" is fine, but you can't make up that "i like it better, therefore it performs better"
low girder
if you don't like it, you don't like it
fallow otter
I think he was better off saying he likes the Tb playstyle better
balmy condor
And that’s fine
low girder
ye
balmy condor
It’s everything else that was wrong
fallow otter
Hahaha
worldly iron
but if you go on and say "it's more versatile" and that it's factually better gameplay, then it becomes a little iffy
fallow otter
The fact is, if you press Tb on cd and pressing perfectly with pooling etc the difference in dps compared to scuffed exsang is huge
worldly iron
i kinda like TB more, but i haven't used it in months since exsang is better
amber quail
Guys, you all talking snalshoting EXS in THIS CORRUTION MOMENT ST scenario
shrewd night
No
low girder
we're not though
shrewd night
We dont.
low girder
the tier is over, no one actually cares about live right now
prepatch is in less than a week
amber quail
I want to repeat NO WAY
fallow otter
He was close to typing analshotting, so I've typed it so that we can all smile
amber quail
Exs is The best if you have 70% haste in ST fight
shrewd night
amber quail
No point on this
low girder
that has nothing to do with any of our points though
balmy condor
Exsang is better with ~30% haste
shrewd night
Did we have 70% haste in uldir?
balmy condor
And yeah
fallow otter
You are confusing exsang and CT surely
amber quail
You played EXS all BfA?
shrewd night
we did for many tiers, yes.
amber quail
For many tiers
worldly iron
alright at this point, i've given up on understanding where this is going
amber quail
So in different times it not shine
balmy condor
Sure
shrewd night
If this guy is legit confusing exsang and ct, Im losing it.
balmy condor
That’s called balance
low girder
yes, because of actual numbers. it had nothing to do with how versatile or not it was
amber quail
So it not shine overall?
balmy condor
What?
amber quail
Are you said this?
fallow otter
I just lold irl
low girder
it all depends on tuning. no one played MP this tier either.
worldly iron
the way it plays doesn't translate into damage done
amber quail
It is not tuned by the start
worldly iron
shrewd night
this is a fat
fallow otter
Coz broken English makes me laugh
amber quail
No change in exs
fallow otter
No offence
balmy condor
Blindside has sucked all expansion
But you aren’t saying blindside is better than ep
shrewd night
There was actually a time in uldir where blindside was wonky 
But they fixed that within days
low girder
what we're trying to point out is, we're not arguing we like exsang because it sims better. we're arguing we like exsang because of how it works.
fleet whale
I mean i'm not a huge fan of exsang lol
thorny dirge
!guide
prisma monolithBOT
balmy condor
Well you said a lot of things that weren’t just your opinion
So it’s hard for us to just see “I like Tb more than exsang”
fleet whale
neither Toxic blade nor exsang really excite me that much, but of the two i prefer tb more
even though TB is just a poison colossus smash
fallow otter
They are kinda back to front, one you get the damage from what you do beforehand + some energy and the other you get the damage from what you do after
shrewd night
I mean, if you dont gather some energy first
fallow otter
The fact is, if you press Tb on cd and pressing perfectly with pooling etc the difference in dps compared to scuffed exsang is huge
This
fleet whale
well toxic blade you pretty much just press on cd
fleet whale
the sims even refresh bleeds in toxic blade windows lol
low girder
lol
fallow otter
Yeh exactly but compare that to scuffing an exsang
shrewd night
Im just comparing to earlier tiers without wild haste. Youd pool to like 60 energy or some shit just to fit in three envenoms
low girder
yeah, but doing 3 vs 2 was like what
2%
you fuck up an exsang badly you're just done
low girder
lmao
fleet whale
I just remember back in EP
fallow otter
Pink parse bois
low girder
it totally matters
fleet whale
there were arguments every day about pooling tb
low girder
i'm just arguing in relative terms
fleet whale
and about refreshing bleeds before TB so you wouldn't have to refresh in the window
low girder
we sim for less than 2% for items
fallow otter
Well soon it will be about pooling for shiv
fallow otter
Doesn't feel right
low girder
did you see whispyr's sim i made him do
balmy condor
Pool for envenom uptime
fleet whale
and it always ended with "refresh rupture if necessary in tb, pooling isn't that important"
low girder
for using shiv vs not
shrewd night
So glad Ill be standing beside yall putting down crash lightning and not care at all abouut pooling.
fleet whale
fire TB on cd
low girder
it's like