Oh god u gotta do BOTE grind
#assassination
raven mica
boreal maple
or just go reaping/clf if u wanna do less dps
raven mica
Did that twice
onyx crane
nah pvp really is bad for my mental health
boreal maple
or stay world vein
raven mica
Thank god I never have to do it again
storm perch
clf is nowadays superb with exs build)
onyx crane
idk why blizzard had to be so cruel to put a good essence behind pvp
that's just abusive
analog seal
onyx crane
no but pvp just makes my piss boil in general
placid harbor
how do you fit the essences into your rotation? after vendetta and before TB?
raven mica
BOTE is always after TB
delicate bone
BOTE was a pretty easy grind, only took 2 days!
toxic kiln
90% of the questions asked today are posted in the pinned messages
raven mica
Hi welcome to class discords.
storm perch
yep, all answers are in pins
toxic kiln
check pinned messages @placid harbor ]
placid harbor
Thanks!
toxic kiln
@worldly fable pinned messasges
boreal maple
Bote for 99% of things
shrewd night
Wdym
worldly fable
Ravenholdt guide has not been updated for 8.3 afaik and the essence part on wowheads guide was last updated on March
toxic kiln
hmm guess the full paragraph on bote wasnt enuf
shrewd night
!essence
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination Essences overview: https://bit.ly/2XaZOVd
worldly fable
That paragraph was pinned before 8.3 tho
toxic kiln
that means nothing has changes if its still there
shrewd night
If it's still pinned, it's not faulty..
ember mural
you can update pins without the timestamp being changed
worldly fable
It still did not mention botd
toxic kiln
wonder why...
ember mural
BotD is good on fights where you can get resets, otherwise the majority of fights youll use BotE
worldly fable
Thank you!
raven mica
Tldr if use bote for like everything, you’ll be fine.
placid harbor
Excuse my ignorance, what do ST, EB and MA refer to in the pinned message?
tribal marlin
worldly fable
With all due respect, sending me to the pins when the pins don't even cover half my question (and having being posted before 8.3) does not help me at all
Sry if I'm being passive aggressive
shrewd night
worldly fable
No it wasn't
toxic kiln
nah u no being passive agressinve ur being ignorant with a side of no common sence
raven mica
Because pve content can mean anything from raiding to M+ to horrific visions to like even open world content or some shit.
vast forum
bote is best for m+ and raids, botd good for drestagath and solo content
toxic kiln
the pins 100% answer every single question uve asked
vast forum
so pick your poison
shrewd night
If you dont ask full, coherent questions they do correct in referring you to the pins.
worldly fable
Pve content is literally visions, raiding m+
vast forum
are dailies not pve?
lean marten
bro my dailys build is 🔥
shrewd night
You don't think choices change between those?
worldly fable
For world content someone could be using worldvein and it'd be fine
vestal wren
island expeditions and warfronts are also pve
raven mica
And none of those have the same damage profiles and you’d likely swap your setup for all three if you were planning to be optimal
vast forum
i could run naked with 2 daggers in visions and i'd be fine
storm perch
what essence should i use for dailies?
vast forum
so what's your point?
shrewd night
What essence should I use for my daily emissary guuys
storm perch
i'm sorry)
vestal wren
btw. bote is not nessecery the best essence, people just like to use it everywhere.
raven mica
Ripple in space
vestal wren
best essence is often variable and gear/group and skill dependent
ember mural
@worldly fable you asked if there was a clear winner, those winners are the ones in pins
vast forum
bote is best overall, but other essences outperform it in specific scenarios
vestal wren
not even that
bote has trade offs that are largely ignored
neverless thats a discussion we had several times
shadow needle
Should I always delay my Bote to line up with vendetta ?
worldly fable
For the love of god, pins don't even mention a 3rd minor
vast forum
there's only 1 mandatory minor (that stops being mandatory at super high expedient levels) and it's lucid
raven mica
It’s
boreal maple
thats what he said
storm perch
Should I always delay my Bote to line up with vendetta ?
@shadow needle yes, in raid
boreal maple
ROFL
raven mica
Fuu he does that sometimes.
vast forum
fuu likes not reading
shadow needle
Thanks sethrose.
vestal wren
oh nvm
boreal maple
and pretty sure lethal strikes gives more dsp then lucid tho at rank 3
shrewd night
Fucking fuu
raven mica
And now he realizes it
vast forum
either way, simming is your best bet and asking for "what's best" in here will usually point you to raidbots
either that or you'll get a generalized answer which might end up not being the best for you
worldly fable
Very well then
mellow loom
Any suggestions for simming cara
vast forum
@mellow loom single target 
p1 isn't a dps check
p2 is just... p2
p3 is single target
toxic kiln
all the time that ean dude spent asking basic rogue 101 questions he would have been done watchiung the 10 min youtube vid that explained itall
vestal wren
its unavoidable to have basic questions asked over and over again
shrewd night
Tho k we can all agree the first visit to ravenholdt is a shock factor 
vestal wren
but you can just link !guide tbh
worldly sandal
any rogue specific tips for a KR +14? so i dont smash my head into a brick when i deplete it
mellow loom
@vast forum im just nervous that its suggesting inifnite stars
I feel like theres too many options for it to hit on cara
vast forum
just don't run IS
worldly fable
However, if the asnwer to everything is , then how I choose between bote and botd for m+
worldly fable
Afaik, we can't reliably sim for m+ the same way outlaw can
vast forum
but then you ask for m+
mellow loom
yeah might have to top gear and not select any IS gear
vast forum
not "what's best for pve"
toxic kiln
u can dungeon slice sim and its pretty accurate
vast forum
that's generally the way to go @mellow loom
worldly fable
Okay okay, let me rephrase
vast forum
dungeon slice sucks
vast forum
this isn't an argument
toxic kiln
help urself then come have the discord carry ur brain
vast forum
he's asking a question
storm perch
any rogue specific tips for a KR +14? so i dont smash my head into a brick when i deplete it
@worldly sandal well you can avoid things on first boss with cosh and with vanish
loud brook
You can cloak and run into the shadow adds to eat them
worldly sandal
i usually dispel with belf racial
worldly fable
Bote vs Botd for raiding and m+, what's generally the best and what are the variables
(now raiding has been answered, what about m+?)
loud brook
Ye, same
storm perch
you just use cosh before he applies debuff
vast forum
@worldly sandal use evasion on the axe barrage in kings' room
worldly fable
Is it all skill based or?
vestal wren
tbh just go blood everywhere, everyone is doing so so why bother
vast forum
@worldly fable bote for m+ always
delicate bone
@worldly fable are you going the echoing blades build or what?
worldly fable
EB isn't optimal everywhere afaik
vast forum
regardless of what build you're running, botd eats up too many globals to just snipe targets that die to passive cleave within a few sec anyway
wicked comet
is cosh menna be cloak
worldly fable
tbh just go blood everywhere, everyone is doing so so why bother
Not good enough
delicate bone
theres many variable your question doing telling us, simming your exact situation is the best way to get answers
worldly sandal
cloak drops zuls ability right? the big AoE?
delicate bone
then go test them, and see what you prefer
worldly sandal
i forget what its called
vast forum
you might get better personal dps from botd but you won't clear dungeons faster
loud brook
Other than the shadow adds, I think the only other thing you can do is take iron wire and silence the caster adds in the hallway for forever to let your tank setup
worldly fable
He said "veryone is doing so"
lean marten
you were given a broad answer to a broad question, you want specifics then
worldly sandal
literally just run bote, spam FoK, rupture everything, ???, rinse repeat
delicate bone
im starting to feel like he doesnt have bote and wants us to get him a reason to not have to go get it
worldly fable
How do you sim for m+
vast forum
stop telling ppl to sim m+, that's just shit
worldly fable
I have bote
grizzled trail
vast forum
if you wanna time keys, and not pad dps
storm perch
cloak drops zuls ability right? the big AoE?
@worldly sandal https://www.wowhead.com/guides/assassination-rogue-basic-mythic-plus-keystone-dungeons#dungeon-tips-kings-rest
grizzled trail
haste my bottom weight now 😭
worldly sandal
delicate bone
simming for anything isnt shit, yea aoe sims are usually trash, but they give you a rough idea, and then its up to you to test it, same for single target
worldly fable
Optimal botd isnt padding btw
vestal wren
ean, the problem with major essence choices is its not only between 2 its between many (4+) diffrent ones. What could be the best is variable but the decision from the majority is "just use blood"
worldly sandal
@storm perch tyvm
loud brook
I sim 4 bosses for a minute 30 to get a rough estimate of my aoe potential
vast forum
optimal botd is very much padding btw
worldly fable
Optimal botd isnt "you" killing the trash with botd
It's brining them to 1-2%
To get instant resets
vast forum
killing a 200k hp target that has dots on it instead of focusing down a higher hp target is a waste of a global that increases your personal dps
worldly fable
Anyhow, I got my answer
loud brook
vast forum
every global spent on botd on secondary targets is a global not spent killing the one that actually needs to die
loud brook
I love these pepes
vast forum
so yes it's padding
and bote also just has good interaction with EB, and is strictly superior on short ST fights
toxic kiln
he was able to convince himself to only us an ability at 1-2% health of a target and say its not padding lol
weve told that dude bote 40 times and he stillwants so bad for it to be something else
rancid obsidian
Geeeez, upgraded both my Chest,Offhand and Trinket from 440 to 475 and gained no dmg at all. (Barely +700dps if i play with a trait i won't in practice)
worldly fable
You don't use botd at 1-2%, your aim is to bring the enemy at 1-2%
worldly sandal
Just use iris
crimson palm
optimal use is to funnel the emp one into a priority target
vestal wren
iris isn't bad on st
crimson palm
and then wait for 45s kek
loud brook
Do you have a sim to share alex?
vast forum
if you end up only using 1 breath into your primary target after all the small shit around it has died
rancid obsidian
vast forum
you've effectively used 10 globals for 1 global worth of dps
loud brook
That sounds like something bad happened or the piece is dookie
rancid obsidian
nothing from before anymore thou, got massive upgrades gs whise but my dmg barely moves.
brazen garden
should probably enchant your stuff
worldly sandal
The piece is dookie
loud brook
Yeah unstable catalyst is dookie
rancid obsidian
Oh, jeah right.
worldly sandal
Also glimpse of clarity
rancid obsidian
that might fix the offhand dmg lol
toxic kiln
i think ean's key grps kill mobs 1 at a time so they can use botd, #45min5mobpulls
worldly fable
I mean, if you are going to end up insulting me...
rancid obsidian
Jeah i will cleanse glimpse but it's not like i have anything to replace it soo...
loud brook
I'd keep the piece in my bags to inflate my I level and use the lower I level piece
vestal wren
so just to be sure, is using abilities/spells that do less damage to your primary target in favor for aoe/other targets bad/padding?
vast forum
not always
but in general, yes
depends on the context
a big aoe grp of same hp, same danger mobs?
urban minnow
why is subreation not updated with the latest affixes?
vast forum
you want to aoe, not single target down 1 with botd
urban minnow
i keep rerfreshing but nothing
vast forum
a group of small mobs with a prio target? you wanna hit the prio target
worldly fable
So, in your group, everything dies at the same time?
vast forum
both scenarios = bote better
botd is just strictly inferior for assa in m+ and any sims pointing the other way are padding
worldly fable
I just feel that you're basing this judgement on what "feels" right
shrewd night
Thats ironic
worldly fable
Or what "is known"
vast forum
simply because in sims, you don't have other 2 dps + a TD tank doing dps and you can't rely on low hp targets dying passively
ok @worldly fable you use breath, it's just better
loud brook
I love blood for anything that requires multiple aoe windows in a fight. For fights where boss damage is paramount I go clf and a single target build
vast forum
i use CLF on single target but sometimes, killtimes are just awkward for it
loud brook
Ilgynoth is one of the fights I just go all in on st
Cause if you phase him faster, less mcs
vast forum
i hate il'gynoth... CDs just don't line up at all
storm perch
Ilgynoth is one of the fights I just go all in on st
@loud brook vexiona too
vast forum
vendetta off CD? perfect time for the boss to be at 15% hp so you have to wait
loud brook
Vexiona I just go outlaw
vast forum
lol
loud brook
If you phase ilgynoth after 1 mc, vendetta will be up at least when he pops back up
In my experience
Non vop minor vendetta*
storm perch
sry for noob question, are gushing wounds nerfs on live?
rancid obsidian
Is the My'das Trinket realy that bad?
loud brook
Yes
vestal wren
gw nerfs are not live iirc
heavy forum
Yes
fickle sedge
0
loud brook
I have a 475 mydas from m+, it sims slightly worse than a 425 aspirants badge
vestal wren
mydas is one of the worse trinkets
loud brook
I keep it in my bags to laugh at it
rancid obsidian
Bugger, i can't get a fucking trinket for month's and now that i finaly get one 465 and it's worse than my fucking trash 440
worldly sandal
???
cobalt pelican
if you use mydas and loot the body of opulence in battle of dazaralor you get 100k gold though
which is kinda nice
warm parcel
I mean just read what mydas does
sick oyster
Just Farm old content for a coral 🙂
warm parcel
Its like 5k dmg on a long ass cd 
lean marten
somehow even my 445 coral i got last night beats a bunch of 475 trinkets
fun lil minigame to apply it in m+ too
sick oyster
Would never play in m+
warm parcel
I mean at the start of the patch
It was said coral would still be your #1 till the end
loud brook
Torment for m+ tbh
lime edge
bote is the best overall essence right
delicate bone
yyes
loud brook
Spyglass is the only trinket I dont have 
delicate bone
same lol
lime edge
pog
sick oyster
EZ
loud brook
scarlet sequoia
i dont think thats viable after the gushing wounds nerf @lime edge
strange python
galecallers boon + coral sims 200 more than my plumage and vita
ive read somewhere here that galecallers is kinda simbait is that true or can i play it?
lime edge
verbal radish
Already have Gorak's shoulders. Have enough to buy another Azerite piece. Presently running 465 Heroic Nya in the chest and helm, so they are equal pieces. Which armor slot has the next best azerite piece? Chest or Helm?
lime edge
u got 480 goraks?
cobalt pelican
depends on what for and what build you play and
what content you clear
and what star sign you are
loud brook
I'm a Gemini
lime edge
gemini? more like gemi-no
loud brook
Oof
lime edge
🤣
vestal granite
Does Shadowmelded Garrote get buffed by Subterfuge in raids??
scarlet sequoia
yes
loud brook
Maybe
vestal granite
raidbots quicksim doesnt seem to use it
cobalt pelican
no yes
boreal maple
isnt it only SS?
cobalt pelican
it won't unless you have shrouded
verbal radish
@cobalt pelican We are working on Mythic Nya, about 3 bosses in. I'm running Subt, but our fight lengths arent short enough to use SS according to Sims, so I am primarily DD with Subt. And I am a Scorpio.
cobalt pelican
yes shrouded no subterfuge
scarlet sequoia
maybe
vestal granite
thats so awkward
loud brook
/ vomits
vestal wren
subterfuge only procs in stealth
cobalt pelican
generally if you have the potential to get maut helm on mythic i'd just go chest if you're playing the normal build
vestal wren
and melt does not apply stealth in a bossfight
cobalt pelican
since vex mythic seems a bit far away
verbal radish
I would say it is. Thanks @cobalt pelican
scarlet sequoia
cus meld counts as stealth
vestal granite
also, at 3CP do I envenom or mutilate, I know its probably asked a 1000 times but..
loud brook
I envenom if my dots are good
scarlet sequoia
u never envenom at 3
loud brook
Really? Huh
quasi pewter
you envenom 4+ with vigor 5+ with ds
lime edge
oops
shrewd night
loud brook
I saw that
scarlet sequoia
cringe
quasi pewter
ha
loud brook
👀
lime edge
pvc
warm parcel
Or in other words max-2
loud brook
I figured that it was better to use envenom at 3 cp over potentially wasting free cps from crits
warm parcel
is when you still mut
loud brook
With vigor anyway
scarlet sequoia
n
warm parcel
If you want to do lower dps sure go ahead
loud brook
Yeah, I can see how the unreliability of critting makes it worth at 5
warm parcel
its wasting cp vs being efficient with finishers
loud brook
What is the determining factor for the latter being better for over the former?
delicate bone
weak af
warm parcel
and env at 3 comes out at a loss according to the bot
loud brook
I see, so it has to do with our current energy constraints pushing us towards more full finishers
warm parcel
no
loud brook
O
warm parcel
even if you have infinite energy
every envenom still costs 35 e
so what you get for spending those 35e is less
if it has 3cp vs 4 or 5
lean marten
if mut does more dmg than a 4cp then theres no reason to ever 4cp
but idk how much mut does
xD
lime edge
3x DD op
loud brook
Gotcha, ty
warm parcel
its not just that mut "deals more dmg"
or dd
just that overall when you have x energy to spend in a time window
envenom at 3 is inefficient
loud brook
53 corruption though 
sick oyster
3x9 on mythic iirc
scarlet sequoia
12
lime edge
kk
glacial steppe
ok wtf, they changed the chains of servitude in SW vision
you get dragged trough cloak
-_-
scarlet sequoia
cloak after it goes off
glacial steppe
you could precloak before too
loud brook
Just clf and shroud dot him 
tough skiff
Assasin is the way to go on M+ in shadowlands. Get ready
tough skiff
Outlaw is aoe target capped assasin isnt at least yet
lime edge
all i know is that all rogues get all poisons or something, and that outlaw cleave is capped
FoK isnt capped?
tough skiff
Not yet
tough skiff
Lets see, blizzard know we need easier and better aoe for sin They may consider that
glacial steppe
no, they didnt plan to cap everything
they just want to make a clear distinction between cleave and aoe
cobalt pelican
fok hits for like 2k in current game
lime edge
fok is booty without eb
tough skiff
All the talents in the bottom arent target capped in Shadowlands. Poison bombs, fok and CT
lime edge
interesting
loud brook
There was an interview with slootbag where ion said he wanted to restore niches of damage design rather than having everything devolve into deathballs all the time if I remember right
dim wyvern
do we let the rupture in exsanguinate drop off or refresh in pandemic?
dim wyvern
ty
lime edge
same way u dont overwrite subterfuged garrotes, right?
lean marten
yup
bleak spoke
the problem is that fok is an awful ability wihtout EB
poison bomb is awful in general
ct kinda owns tho
onyx crane
if they make poison bomb a spell, toss a flask at the feet of your target blabla it would be better, less random not proccing when tank is moving or on killing blows and what not
warm parcel
ye well would have to do dmg
cause 0 dmg is still 0 dmg no matter when you "get to press it"
bleak spoke
Poison bomb could be cool if it was an off gcd empowerment to next finisher or something
bleak spoke
Hey man
warm parcel
I feel those days are long gone
onyx crane
it's not that poison bomb is THAT weak but the randomness of it makes it so
warm parcel
I mean it is man
It used to do a fair bit of damage compared to what it does now
And if we compare it to some other specs, its laughable as our "aoe"
crimson palm
hidden blades is still there even when classes are being reworked and u complain about pb 
fallow marsh
Hey guys quick question --> if I wear an infinite stars 3 and an infinite stars 1 how does it work with the proc? Is it so that my infinite stars 1 and 3 can have different proc's? i.e. are independent?
arctic token
so ive been doing alot of research for mythic plus. i love the shrouded suffication build but damn theres alot of people who play alot of different builds as far as stats and corruption goes. im seeing 50 percent crit and mastery and then high haste. and also kind of even. i feel like the crit mastery is best but im asking what others think. also ive got a TD3 on 450 pants.. got real lucky. but thought of cleansing and buying multiple severe think. just seeing alot of options and wondering what others think
onyx crane
at what ilvl do you get 50% haste...
lime edge
just use other pants
has nothing to do with ilvl
its just having expedients
and haste on every piece
ok has a bit to do with ilvl
bleak spoke
people don't play high haste in m+ because it's good they do because they don't have other pieces of gear
haste is a pretty dead stat in aoe for sin
onyx crane
I have 35% crit and 32% haste 27% mastery
bleak spoke
it's also the case this season that the number of single target encounters in key have gone up significantly
so like
it's not even bad tbh
arctic token
yeah thats what i thought. and yeah i wouldnt cleanse sorry i meant replace with a 465 pair.. thats after i get my severe r3 stuff
lime edge
@onyx crane whats ur ilvl
arctic token
ive just been seeing alot of diff stuff. be interesting to see what happens when severe 3 comes out.. TD is so much corruption. im 467
bleak spoke
severe's just incredibly strong in aoe for us
like
crit is such a dominant stat with basically infinite energy regen
arctic token
because of seal fate right
thats why im liking the crit mastery build
but have to give up the TD3 eventually
vestal wren
assassinations energy generation scales absurdly well with targets
thats why subterfuge is so good
arctic token
yeah and weeks like this where its literally all trash in m plus
bleak spoke
super fun week yeah
vestal wren
you only need ~3 targets to get a very high energy regeneration
bleak spoke
7 energy/s per bleed out on a poisoned target 
arctic token
yeah and i when with tempest as well. its really fun
vestal wren
tempest does not give you energy regeneration
bleak spoke
imagine how absolutely nuts it would be if it did
gameplay would be super boring though
literally cannot be punished energywise even on 2t
lol
vestal wren
the pacing change with targets is already absurd as it is
blizz should in theory make it lower
bleak spoke
yeh part of why i absolutely love watching seli play key is like
when i play sin i have like
arctic token
well i usually go poison bomb. but if tanks can handle it they will def be moving alot this week
bleak spoke
5-6 bad gloabls in like 40 seconds
and when i watch seli he has like no bad globals almost ever haha
vestal wren
i think beeing gcd caped so fast does not rly fit in well with the usual pacing of the spec
bleak spoke
yeh in my mind sin is the least... frantic? of any spec in the game kinda
like even in exsang and lust it's so controlled on st
vestal wren
but i also did not like zul as sub rogue from a gameplay perspective
bleak spoke
there's never a moment where you're like, slamming your keys trying to get "the next abilities" in
because you kinda know it doesn't change the outcome
but with the target swapping and multidotting the 1s gcd lock which is usually super relaxing and measured becomes such a shitfest haha
yeah fuu for sure
funnily enough i think the best gameplay during zul was when X number of crawgs died
and you had to adjust
so in a good kill the gameplay was awful haha
vestal wren
zul felt bad given bad tanking or other stuff that interrupted you for only a hand full of global did dramatically change your damage output
bleak spoke
oh, kinda interesting https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/s2kQqxbQ4AZhFzS9t1PQ4g (forgot to hit the purify on my mh dagger zzzzz) but aoe setup seems to certainly favor a strikethrough/severe split
this is a 6t60s bloodlust sim
cobalt pelican
cobalt pelican
bleak spoke
like my aoe outlaw sims never have one in
oh
WHAT
WHEN
DID
THEY
mayun
ackshually inting myself
cobalt pelican
gem settings and stuff are somehow saved per spec, so when you put your outlaw string it's probably sitll not got it
i have no idea how it saves it, must be site cache or something
bleak spoke
i kinda hate that
yeah raidbots has some weirdddd caching
especially with the time/target stuff
strange python
how important is vers to sin?
cobalt pelican
medium important
vital tapir
hi guys, I was wondering if you could maybe help me out and correct my gear if it's needed
altho my guild stopped doing mythic progression I'd like to improve my rotation and stuff so I'd like to get help from experienced people if possible
I have a feeling that, in comparison to similarly geared people, I'm dealing a lot less dmg and would like advice on the subject
I'll be posting my raidbot sim in a sec, and logs if needed?
arctic token
so really on aoe.. like this week. crit will give you haste.. aka energy regen with the trash in there correct.
strange python
i feel like I cant sim for shit when raidbots tell me I have to for verse with eb and ss
sim for
bleak spoke
well not exactly
echo haven
Guys I thought that for assa the best stat is haste, i would have gone full haste also for mitic, why crit is better?
bleak spoke
on aoe when you open 3 garrotes into rupture out of stealth, you have 4 bleeds out, first of which after those globals will have 14s duration
arctic token
yeah its kind of hard to sime for m plus
bleak spoke
as long as you maintain 4 bleeds whether they're ruptures or garrotes
you'll have the energy to play the game on every global
that's not crit reliant, though crit does make it smoother
vital tapir
is there some % of crit that we should strive to or is it just the case of the more the merrier?
bleak spoke
single target is different
single target you just go with what the sim tells you to go for
usually it's haste
vital tapir
okay
btw, wanted to ask smth, since I've been thinking about it
now that we have corruption vendor
is it worth it to swap mindflay on daggers for expedient 3 or smth like that ?
some stat increase
bleak spoke
yeah that's what lots of people have been doing
vital tapir
yeah, bc I felt like mindflay isn't reliable
bleak spoke
the expedient setup is the bleed build of sin usually
vital tapir
on some pulls it triggers often enough and my damage spikes, but on some pulls it doesn't proc even once
bleak spoke
where instead of toxic blade and master assassin and vigor (though high gear tb setups also use deeper), you play exsanguinate and subterfuge and deeper with 3 shrouded suffocation traits
hushed lion
anyone knows why raidbots adds 2 wrathion sockets when it clearly says that its only gonna add 1?
per set
vital tapir
oh okay, so ideally, if I went for ST damage, I'd go for as much haste I can go for and then go bleed build huh?
echo haven
Wow assassin i the most difficult spec of the game, for a newbie like me playing the class il like doing smth impossible
tropic ocean
if you have the gear for it
echo haven
Ahhahahah lol
tropic ocean
its not its pretty easy
vital tapir
yeah, sin's pretty easy kinda
lean marten
easy to learn, hard to master
tropic ocean
You press 2 buttons most of the time
vital tapir
agree with xang gang
what are some tips to maximize dmg as a sin rogue?
like is there some way to cheese some more dmg?
or is it just stat difference at one point?
tropic ocean
Multidot
lean marten
main difficulty is that opener and burst window mistakes aren't very forgiving
fairly simple otherwise imo
vital tapir
yeah, experienced mistakes on opener
dps falls off for like 20k
depending on the fight that is
but yeah, it's not very forgiving from what I've experienced
tropic ocean
Its normal
strange python
How is sin hard to master?
strange python
Sin is the easiest shit ive played
tropic ocean
i guess it depends on what class you compare it to
vital tapir
never really played dh so wouldn't know
tropic ocean
Must play a different game then
lime edge
just my op
vestal wren
playing dh perfect in m+ is harder
lime edge
and dh has fast gcds
tropic ocean
theres no thinking for dh
lime edge
so more button pressing
quasi pewter
the classes in wow arent hard, its the fights that make ur rotation hard to execute optimally
tropic ocean
Its not
lean marten
the fact taht talent changes and esence changes and trinket changes can drastically alter gameplay affects difficulty to master imo. you can't swap to assa and be a "master" so easily. to learn? very easy
so exactly what i said
easy to learn hard to master
vestal wren
difficultly is always opinionated, a lot of ppl have a hard time keeping dots up f.ex.
tropic ocean
Theres already more thinking than in dh for example
Cuz using gcd to dot targets that dont live through it
Is dps loss
vital tapir
true
quasi pewter
there is definitely more depth to specs like assa compared to dh, atleast in situation that dont just involve 1 target
i wouldnt call it hard though
tropic ocean
or to phrase it differently theres not much room for error in specs like dh or bm
quasi pewter
the hard part about specs is learning timings, proper efficient movement etc.
tropic ocean
as u just press everything on cd
I dont think I play dh good
But just using all stuff on cd good enough for orange log and 20keys
🤷🏿♂️
lean marten
interesting tone choice ausr
tropic ocean
dont wanna say sin is hard as you legit only press 2 buttons between redotting
But playing so many classes the dot specs imo require more thinking
delicate bone
Dh is easiest class in game lol
tropic ocean
i see it similar to arms warr
steep obsidian
bm hunter is probably easier
faint harness
survival is prob one of the specs that got most minigames going for it
tropic ocean
Arms warr rotation is very simple but once cleave starts you need to think some
hollow ether
can we all just agree BM hunter is the easiest brainless class in the game
tropic ocean
Compared to dh where rotation doesnt change
hollow ether
i think that should be enough
faint harness
DH is easier than BM
right now
BM requires some thinking about CDR stuff
which DH has none of
hollow ether
lol
steep obsidian
that is my dr stuff
faint harness
you cant just mindlessly press barbed shot
faint harness
i mean sure you might play it like that
steep obsidian
you havent played a geared bm hunter with lots of crit and haste 😛
faint harness
but are you azortharion
tropic ocean
No procs no charges 0
bleak spoke
dh gameplay in raid is kinda resident
bleak spoke
dh gameplay in key has really really really high ceiling
tropic ocean
Tracking dr and purge etc
faint harness
talking about fana?
faint harness
avade has been a DH since day 1 of Legion and stuck with it
tropic ocean
But to pick up and go higher than 95% of the playerbase its very simple
bleak spoke
but like the example i always use is like
avade will taunt and dance on every blade combo in KR
like
how do you play with any dh after that
that isn't him
you feel
faint harness
well
bleak spoke
like that actually takes away like 1/4 to 1/3 of the damage a tank takes in that encounter
that kinda deal
faint harness
how much is it actually giving you
tropic ocean
Thats pretty easy
lean marten
arent they removing taunt in SLands
bleak spoke
yeah but no one does it
shut garnet
theyre removing the dodge off blade dance afaik
tropic ocean
Cuz 99.9% of players never seen that
bleak spoke
is my point
faint harness
when they cant even compete with the EU team anyway 
shut garnet
and just keeping it on death sweep
bleak spoke
like 99.9999% of stuff is really easy
wintry turret
Sub vs Sin
bleak spoke
but no one does it and no one does all of it
lean marten
blade dance dodge is still a thing, just wont get it till like lvl 40
its a rank thing
for lvling
tropic ocean
sin>sub
bleak spoke
@faint harness man NA boys actually can't play like EU boys do though like
when you guys have ppl who need to go
you guys find gamers in like 5 minutes
faint harness
they just stop
bleak spoke
yeh even when it's not though
shut garnet
isnt dh like the best m+ class now anywya
tropic ocean
i think the best class in m+ if we talking high keys is mage
lost horizon
Dh rogue mage is meta
tropic ocean
Not only throughout overall output but also carrying the hard pulls
lost horizon
Hunter is also insane
faint harness
BM hunter will nestle their way in
tropic ocean
Due to spec nature
vital tapir
fire mage with their combustion are just insane
bleak spoke
it's just a fundamentally broken dps profile
shut garnet
outlaw utility spec 
lost horizon
Yeah
bleak spoke
where you can compress 1:30 of your damage into :18
like
that's just fundamentally nuts
tropic ocean
Uve seen it especially in those high keys on andi group
bleak spoke
i mean i play with a mage
tropic ocean
How wildi carried hard pulls
tropic ocean
Workshop 2nd pack after dog for example
vital tapir
Idk man, when I've seen their dmg on hivemind for example
bleak spoke
when he slams the combust button it's like we can't die
tropic ocean
Not sure u will survive it in 26 without mage
bleak spoke
yeah exactly
vital tapir
you can just see them spike the moment there are adds spawning
bleak spoke
like sure hunter might catch up and exceed their damage X time into a pull but
if the wipe conditional is "this pack lives 25 seconds"
then hunter sucks
lol
lost horizon
You can do it without mage, you'll just get 2 shortouts for sure
bleak spoke
the reason outlaw actually is the nuts in high keys is like, i can on so many pulls personally make "this pack lives 25 seconds" into "this pack lives 35 seconds"
tropic ocean
And how u gonna live them?
bleak spoke
even though i do less damage now
lost horizon
Rotate immunes
tropic ocean
Lol
bleak spoke
with shortout?
lost horizon
It's ass but doable
tropic ocean
Gl
bleak spoke
you don't need a mage you can play sin
vital tapir
?
bleak spoke
idk man we killed it with sin/fire on a 24 on the first tick of the first short out
like
with 6 seconds of vendetta to spare
shrug
tropic ocean
in 22 with am and feint healer did 130k hps on that pack including darkness
tropic ocean
Not sure u can live 2 in 36
bleak spoke
it doesn't survive 1 short out with rogue mage anyway
lost horizon
I've been 26 and had 2 cast
vital tapir
ah yeah, if you need to kill one add on any diff, sin rogue's your man
bleak spoke
i mean like dark + immunity set means you live yeah
like rogue never dies to that without the dot on them
cuz of feint
being a very very good button
vital tapir
feint bis
bleak spoke
so you literally can wall every one that you don't already immune
like feint in dark is actually the most disgusting combo
the shortout does so little damage to you vial outheals it on a 24
lime edge
remove sub and add a tank spec, kappa
bleak spoke
...
lost horizon
Crawlers in yard are worse imo, solely cause higher level yards are doable
bleak spoke
crawlers in yard are awful yeah
lost horizon
You have to just not pull them at a certain point
lost horizon
Cause 0 chance you live
bleak spoke
man what if you die in a junkyard it's basically ff
okay like
on bolstering week
you pull crusher on turtle
sure
but like
any other week there is better count
and better wits
lost horizon
Crushers are good combust targets, and actually last almost as long as turtle
They're fine to pull
bleak spoke
see that's the issue right
you combust the turtle innit
can play double mage and do all crushers i guess
taht could kinda own
like turtle with 3 crushers healer far bait for rocks
and they just melt it in 14 seconds or whatever
honestly at this point i think maybe you play double mage in fh and kings
lost horizon
The point is you can pull crusher+pack during RP
And chain in
Without just having 30% health mobs into turtle
bleak spoke
Yeah but like my point is like there are other packs around the rp
This is actually an argument as old as the expansion
I remember having this argument for literally 3 hours with the key in the hole ready to go in s2 lmao
The problem now though is that wits isn’t as dominant right
lost horizon
If harpooners are up the other packs are inefficient
bleak spoke
Cuz when you played na comp in s2 you need a stable wits source
Other side
And pat
The kick is easy
bleak spoke
Okay but there are no harpooners on the other side
Also just blind the harpooned and play it with g47 or whatever
lost horizon
Obelisk side?
lost horizon
There's one harpooner obelisk side
bleak spoke
Also you can parry bait the harpooned anyway like
lost horizon
The other side has like 4 through the packs
bleak spoke
Lemme screen mdt sec need to pop game open
lost horizon
Parry bait harpooner, 2min CD, then what?
lost horizon
Not on 26
bleak spoke
yes it does to ignite
lost horizon
No combust for turtle
bleak spoke
you tight stack outlaw bait
you combust the turtle to begin with
like
i swear
no one remembers the outlaw baits in fh
for stuff like that
lost horizon
You still have to be playing a pack during RP
bleak spoke
yeah play the harpooner pack to begin with in rp
lost horizon
And combust harpooner? CC and chain it in? What's your play
vital tapir
is GW still viable?
bleak spoke
https://i.imgur.com/DkSkjF8.png like you lose no time doing this
this is blind harpooner
faint harness
@vital tapir its not nerfed yet
bleak spoke
drag into arena
faint harness
they might go back on it
bleak spoke
and you play yellows with turtle when purple dies
for wits
so like after you break blind you hold backpedal and parry and take a wider arc with your back to where boss spawns
and then no one can get pulled by harpooner while you're gather red
lost horizon
That just sounds annoying as fuck
bleak spoke
and rest of group tight stacks on tank then after you take the harpooner you grapple in and tricks for red
i guess yeah
but
idk
i'm pretty accustomed to doing shit like that
lost horizon
"just do this" has to be actually worth instead
bleak spoke
like the fact of the matter though is like crushers are bad count
there's no way you can say they're not
like 1.5x hp for value
lost horizon
If you play them alone yeah
But if you're playing it with turtle it doesn't matter
Since you can't continue to chain other packs in anyways
bleak spoke
idk like i can definitely see playing the crusher with turtle as okay right
but
i just don't think
it's better when you're like finishing count there anyway and you need all of those packs
and it's very smooth like 3 packs
like if you were to do crusher i think you do wtih boss tbh
lost horizon
You def don't need all of what's highlighted there (even considering the ones that disappear)
I just disagree that you need to hard avoid crusher
Pulling all crushers is excessive sure
1-2 is fine
bleak spoke
well i mean that's the thing though right
you don't need the stuff taht's there sure
but you want to do it
because of the rp block
if you pull super big and then super big and then you're out of count by the time you're in that azone
then it's actually time loss
lost horizon
You start pig RP beforehand so you only need to do turtle and boss RP
bleak spoke
even though there is much much better count in the dungeon
lost horizon
If you pull too much you lose out on ravager packs
bleak spoke
yeh exactly
you never do last 50 count
obviously
but like let me explain
like in raw numerics this is the best count in the key https://i.imgur.com/4dM3vJ0.png
but people rarely do either packs
because
in order to do this you need to not do second boss room trash
if that makes sense
like in s2 when we timed the wf freeholds we played jolly raoul against the tables where they spawned and pulled in the trash around the room one pack at a time for wits + bad brew cleave right
but that's not a possibility now
lost horizon
Tbh a lot of previous season stuff just doesn't fly anymore
bleak spoke
like by "best numerical count" i mean like 6 mobs for 26 count, 10 mobs for 52 count is fucking nuts
contextually
the first pull the threepack at the start
is 9 mobs for 38 count
and that's considered "good count"
verbal sparrow
Is coral better than plumage 455 with socket ? (I don't like simming trinkets because its quite odd, at least in my simming)
bleak spoke
coral owns
strange python
What's odd about simming trinkets? Besides Cannonball Runner
verbal sparrow
I have Vita HC, Plumage 455, Coral M and Blackscale M
strange python
And galecaller if you can't stay in range
Coral and wrathion probably
But sim it
verbal sparrow
When I'm simming it, it always picks coral and Spyglass
oh and I forgot about spyglass mb
lost horizon
It's also about what's doable, tank dmg does come into play
But efficient pulls also have to make sense in the route
bleak spoke
yeah
lost horizon
Playing last pack with bombs into boss is most efficient, but super risky
So you shouldn't do it unless you're unable to time otherwise
bleak spoke
okay like ti's actually not that risky if some 4head dh doesn't get the horse guy by accident
strange python
Well why don't you pick what's simming highest then? Like, Coral is insane and spyglass is decent. No Wonder it recommended those
bleak spoke
sap blind stormcaller
and all the damage in the pull is like
not even there
i hate that pull though
some fucking 4heads always end up cleaving the shit by accident or sunfire or etc
sometimes i'm the 4head with flurry tbh
lost horizon
It's always sketch, unless your team has practiced it repeatedly
bleak spoke
yeah like any mechanic that requires ranged dps/healers to tight stack in melee of mobs
is always so sketch
like even really really good players of those classes/roles
it like
goes against their instincts kinda
vs. rogues where we just sit anywhere because like
playing with cheat makes you not scared of being in melee of mobs kinda
like even less scared than other melee dps
so we're never the issue with that sort of thing but like trying to get a druid or mage to stack tight to drop those circles is actually so awful
i'm not even flaming i'm like
saying that it's not something they naturally feel comfortable doing
and it makes a lot of sense why
i try to take the most charitable view of why people fuck up "easy" mechanics like that 
lost horizon
Honestly it's just practice
bleak spoke
yeh
lost horizon
With a consistent group it's easy to just try it out, esp on TR
But in reality you're always looking for a 5th or whatever
And any new element can easily scuff risky plays
chilly marsh
tropic ocean
@bleak spoke better count doesnt also necessarily means making the dungeon faster though
especially when playing with a mage
like in fh for example first pull > pillar > pack > boss
will line combustion perfectly
so I guess sometimes its smarter to play a worse pack mobcount/mob amount wise
as it results in faster clear
tropic ocean
yea
its the same how I desperately try to explain to ppl how less overall can make your dungeon faster
😄
vestal wren
yes but not live on na or eu
echo haven
So now is it better play a build based on GW or on severe/expedient?
last crown
is BoTE even that good? all top logs are running it and i can sorta see why but it sims pretty bleh
i understand why its good for cara, but looks like padding fodder on most other fights
loud brook
bote does like a few %'s less than clf. As soon as you introduce more than one target into the fight blood becomes better value. Then there's the people with high logs playing around twisted appendages
so they blood of the enemy when they have tendies out to get more value out of them
which is wonky af.
crimson palm
shy axle
anyone got some ilgynoth mythic tipps for me that are not written in the guide? First time trying him this evening
vast forum
i wouldn't recommend vop on progress tbh
loud brook
toss a poisoned dagger at the add to help out your ranged every once and awhile
same goes for mcs
mint oar
Is there a guide for azerite?
potent carbon
can always copy top players or sim what you have
loud brook
you can also just soak the beam without having to move if you cloak right before it lands
and just keep dpsing, and save alot of room for everyone
shy axle
thanks guys, lets see how it plays out
ember iron
guys, i want to log my M+ run and maybe get some advice on rotation
when i do it, it says the report contains no information...
limber lion
Should I run IS3 on Shad'har or just not bother?
balmy condor
@ember iron do you have advanced logging on
@limber lion if you’re looking to parse, sure. But imo, IS is too niche and RNG to take
That’s why exped stacking is recommended for single target, and not something like tendy stacking, which is how a lot of the high parses are getting up there
ember iron
@ember iron do you have advanced logging on
@balmy condor fixed it, yes it was that and also i didnt type /combatlog 😛
balmy condor
That’s mega rip
ember iron
im going to log my m+ runs tonight as i think my rotation sucks
balmy condor
3 garrotes on pull, something something win
ember iron
yeah but im ending SotS for instance on 60k
twilit hollow
wheres the garrote copy pasta
mint oar
what addon do you use for simming?
ember iron
im sure i should be at like 80+k
balmy condor
Simulationcraft, and you import it into raidbots.com
mint oar
ty
balmy condor
What azerite/talents are you running
ember iron
3xeb/ss