It’s always been like that right - you could play subterfuge and “just get lucky lol”
#assassination
minor thicket
Sorry what do you mean get lucky
bleak spoke
With crits
minor thicket
Ahh
bleak spoke
If you get lucky with crits then ma actually doesn’t do anything in a way
Obviously that’s a stupid way to look at it but it’s technically correct the same way subterfuge technically will sim better at these gear levels right
In terms of how it feels to pilot, if I play a tb dd build I play vigor and I play ma
Cuz it feels natural kinda
sullen knot
why subterfuge sims better than MA without SS then?
minor thicket
He just said lol
MA has diminishing returns
The higher your crit the less effective it will get
bleak spoke
Like early in the tier we were getting around it by literally blooding after ma window
So doing openers like m r m g vendetta Tb vanish env muti env bote etc
It was like a modest gain on sims to just do that differently
Like 200-250 dps for most people
Actually just the smallest most insignificant change to not overcap on crit
So it kinda tells you where we are gear wise vs playing master assassin
So it’s not a stretch from there to think that maybe randomly have 90% more damage on garrote while it may seem insignificant will sim better than just de syncing stuff to space out our crit intake etc
minor thicket
In your experience mind you i will SIM shortly. But is exsangugate build best for ST dmg
minor thicket
I’m going to make a build and sim myself
bleak spoke
I played exsang on nzoth with literally just the haste on my gear and no expedients
minor thicket
I asked this question last night but got a answer I didn’t think was correct
bleak spoke
And it didn’t just sim better my first burn was actually like 1m higher on avg
minor thicket
Besides the regular opener when do you use exsan next?
bleak spoke
Cuz exsang with triple shrouded is giga burst
minor thicket
On CD when bleeds refreshed?
bleak spoke
You just use on cd
And then the exsang at 2:25 you hold your vendetta and vanish for that
Obviously if fights will finish before then etc then you hold exsang so you don’t miss a vendetta/vanish etc
minor thicket
Same opener GR,Mut, GR?
bleak spoke
On nzoth in particular it’s very very strong to be able to vanish garrote both thought harvesters and turn your shitty garrote on the boss into a good garrote
Nah
Garrote rupture garrote vendetta mutilate to 5+ rupture to overwrite
And then exsang
And press blood after exsang
sullen knot
that opener was giga fun
bleak spoke
You want to basically create a close to max duration set of bleeds
Before you hit exsang and blood
sullen knot
so much haste for spam envenoms and ur garrote pumping
minor thicket
What is bkood?
bleak spoke
If you have really really high gear levels then you can play clf
And you hit it before vendetta
Blood of the enemy
minor thicket
Oh lol
bleak spoke
But that’s also a sim question
minor thicket
Ya ya I use that now
sullen knot
bote after or before exsanguinate?
bleak spoke
Out of stealth on pull on a boss you can match any other class in burst with equal gear
minor thicket
After
bleak spoke
And in most cases even better gear than you
After
You want the globals in blood to be damaging globals
sullen knot
aight
bleak spoke
And you don’t lose any crit amp time if you press it after
Note that exsanguinate snapshots your haste on cast
minor thicket
Thanks you’ve been helpful. Now to sim to see if I have enough haste to play exsan
sullen knot
gonna try triple SS in nzoth today
bleak spoke
One of the few abilities in game to do so
minor thicket
I have about 30% haste without procs baseline
bleak spoke
So casting it in and out of lust is actually like... well for me it was like 1m+ damage difference on first burn on nzoth
So literally in 22ish seconds if I missed lust window like
minor thicket
Obv when expedient kicks in I’m well over 50%
bleak spoke
The damage just went to nowhere
minor thicket
Anyway appreciate the help @bleak spoke
bleak spoke
Mhm 🙂
sullen knot
ye so much thx mate
bleak spoke
All good
frosty talon
cleanse the weapons from cara or keep them with TA?
minor thicket
if i dont have 480 Gibberng maw what is another suitable head with SS?
i only have 465 Gibbering
turbid osprey
one of the m+ helmets must have it
twin bay
is there a haste/expedient value in which its safe to say the exsang build is better then DD with 2 cara dagger? i have so many items i would need to cleanse or put sockets on that im a little bit afraid/overwhelmed 😄
tropic ocean
no
minor thicket
yes likely another part if I dont have the head in 480 is there even a point to running exsan
tropic ocean
you dont need to cleanse you can sim every combination in raidbots
turbid osprey
probably not ideal though since you cant get hod
is there a 'bis items list if you had expedient on everyone' list? or is it just mechagon rings, the 3 azerite pieces, cara daggers and haste crit in every other slot?
e.g. worth putting an exped on these? or look for high haste low crit boots?
warm parcel
Do you have 15 ex enchants available?
Like you gonna swap out the boots anytime soon?
turbid osprey
i have a strikethrough pair i use in a slightly higher than safe corruption set
but thats about it
warm parcel
Doesnt matter what item you enchant
Just enchant something you wont swap for a while
glad compass
do w want 2-3 gushing wounds on 485 pieces? i did some gear compare and it seems a lil better than pure expedient
vestal wren
koji pushed the gw nerf manual yesterday, thats why its now in the nightly:
digital stone
!Essence
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination Essences overview: https://bit.ly/2XaZOVd
vestal wren
Its usually better to just go with nightly. But the only diffrence between nightly/weekly is the essence nerf atm what makes it a good option to see the impact.
flat pike
How much corruption should I aim for in raids? 39 or 59?
tranquil marsh
farm boss 59
progress boss 39
next lily
Where can I see the best azerite traits for m+? I want to buy some pieces from vendor, thank you
snow hamlet
- You don't need SS to play with Exsanguinate. It's good with DD as well and DD might sim better depending on the ilevel and stats of the piece.
sorry but what is SS and DD?
mint valve
snow hamlet
thanks
echo haven
Some of you play assa in m+? Which key are you able to time?
scarlet sequoia
15
echo haven
I really would like to play assa in m+ but it seems that it is a class more for pvp or raid- single target boss 😦
shy axle
you can play it just fine in m+
scarlet meteor
What do you guys think are the best corruptions to stack for raids and m+?
hollow escarp
@echo haven unless you go for very high keys, it's still good
it's harder with pugs though
prisma monolithBOT
Rogue abbreviations: http://www.ravenholdt.net/rogue-abbreviations/
vestal wren
!abb links to an article that sums up all abbreviations
echo haven
@hollow escarp what do you mean for very high? Like 19/20?
vestal wren
its a good read if you are new/unfamiliar with the spec/class
last ingot
strange python
oh boy...this corruption shit is getting confusing -.-
zinc furnace
Gentlemen. Have 24 Expedient, R3 and R2 Apendages. Sim says all my gems and enchants to be changed to Crit. Does that sound reasonable? Are sims accurate with Expedient?
23% Crit, 37% haste unbuffed. 475 galecaller
zinc furnace
ty
frigid briar
I have 52% base haste and rank 14 expedient, Im gemming crit for now because of the off items Im using
shrewd copper
24 expedient means 24 % ? Sorry to ask but i'm figuring how much expedient minimum i need to have.
strange python
52% haste base? ^^ is there no cap?
junior sail
zinc furnace
24 i meant 24% ye
the weird thing is that sim suggest crit games and also switch deadly navigatio not mastery one
so confusing 😄
strange python
so u guys cleansed your infinte stars?
zinc furnace
never used any. i was the acolite of Apendages God
zinc furnace
major?
radiant vapor
Nice, I finally got a 2nd dagger last night so I’m making the switch to assas finally
uncut cape
ohh GW still good ohn 485 items 😄
tropic ocean
@hollow escarp depends on what u define as high
i pugged sin to 3.4k
and theres sins that play at 4.5k? or so
hollow escarp
yes
bleak spoke
^actually doesn’t matter beyond that
Keys are scuffed off of people dying to stuff right now
hollow escarp
I haven't reached there yet
bleak spoke
There’s not a single deplete in my highest keys played this season where I thought my setup or gear etc had anything to do with why a key depleted
tropic ocean
i've not depleted one key due to not having gouge either
99% of depletes are people inting on bosses
like going to last boss atal 22 using 3 cr and 2dps still dead for 40% of the fight
bleak spoke
My depletes are all deaths from different people or in like maybe one or two edge cases the route
tropic ocean
yea
same here
and at least for me
never dps issue
well actually dps issue
but due to ppl dying
bleak spoke
No dps has never been the issue so far
tropic ocean
XD
hollow escarp
well, I rarely do more damage than my fire mage
bleak spoke
Yeh
hollow escarp
but usually I'm not 3rd
bleak spoke
Yeah that kind of scuff has nothing to do with specs or even gear really
hollow escarp
yeah, but the community bias has a lot of influence
bleak spoke
And most depletes are that kind of scuff
hollow escarp
the best guild in my realm has a survival hunter that is pushing keys
bleak spoke
I’m of the opinion that the only time specs and classes matter is survival
In a high key
If you can’t live a mechanic
That’s a hard wall right
It’s rarely anything else
hollow escarp
I managed to deplete an +18 underrot and people blamed it on comp 
bleak spoke
Like right now windwalker isn’t bad because it does no damage or whatever like in raid
Ww actually owns in keys
It’s just that they kinda get owned
By like
Everything
willow pulsar
I got kicked from a party for 20 waycrest after key owner realised i am sin not outlaw player
hollow escarp
exactly, the community affects that a lot
bleak spoke
Tbh if ppl do that you don’t want to play with them to begin with imo
Because that means they’re probably bad and it’s manifesting in a negative way
willow pulsar
I play an outlaw sometimes just for memes and never can reach numbers i do on sin
bleak spoke
Sin has better raw throughput this tier
But a spec you play often and play comfortably will almost always outperform one where you don’t
willow pulsar
I believe that with corruption vendor we will get beyter
hollow escarp
I like assa but I only have a 480 azerite piece for sin, I rolled another one yesterday and it's an outlaw bis, I might try to get a weapon and do some keys with outlaw myself
the avoidant corruption will be fun for M+
willow pulsar
Can't wait to get my hands on those severs and strikethrough
bleak spoke
Idk I wouldn’t consider avoidant pieces unless I were getting oneshot by stuff despite feint
Cuz anything avoidant gives damage reduction to can be feinted
bleak spoke
Like there’s three moments that come to mind where that corruption seems really insane right
The vent jets on first boss of workshop, crawgmaw tantrum and doubles on explosive bursts on korgus
hollow escarp
I did have some fun with tendies in M+
bleak spoke
Yeh I’d stick to damage corruptions
willow pulsar
I think i am gonna get two severs for tyrannical weeks
hollow escarp
maybe have an avoidant corruption on a piece with a tertiary stat for situational plays
willow pulsar
Tfu, gushing
bleak spoke
Just because tendies isn’t optimal or whatever doesn’t mean it sucks imo
hollow escarp
tendies are better than infinite stars for M+
if you kill an ad, the tendie attacks another
bleak spoke
Well yeah is actually does in fact suck
willow pulsar
Tendies are ok but i don't like the huge rng factor
hollow escarp
I like to see people complain about my top damage ability 🙂
bleak spoke
Yeh but if you don’t have other options then definitely better than nothing
hollow escarp
I got lucky with rank 7 tendies
bleak spoke
And better than other options that aren’t even vaguely good
hollow escarp
1 x III, 2 x II
bleak spoke
Yeh I got a rank3 early in the tier as well
I don’t really have many strong feelings about it, can’t think of many times it’s been awful, can’t think of many times it’s absolutely popped off either tbh
willow pulsar
I did two kr runs, i had a huge variance in dps on tendies, one did 12m other 7,5
Also you want tendies to deal dmg to bosses, the second run had two bosses with one proc only xD
hollow escarp
yeah, now that we have the corruption vendor I will limit the tendie and go with stats
not sure what yet
but will sim and farm echoes
or just ask in every discord and twitch chat what is best corruption
urban minnow
does TA act the same being if its on a weapon or armor? no difference in damage scaling or anything?
willow pulsar
Just ilvl
urban minnow
ok
steel holly
When it comes to arena are we going to stack gushing post nerf due to its reliability? Or do we build around versatile or mind flayers?
urban minnow
cuas ei dont have carapace daggers but i just got TA on a 475 piece from 5 mask
willow pulsar
470*
urban minnow
eep yes
pliant token
How I aoe in m+? Just focus on 1 target but use fok instead of muti?
pseudo hamlet
Subterfuge -> use 3x garrote on each target
In the pins:
M+ AoE Openers
With Crimson Tempest talented
G1 G2 G3 CT FoK R1 BotE 5xFoK
Without Crimson Tempest
G1 G2 G3 R1 FoK Env BotE 5xFoK
pseudo hamlet
No, it depends on the situation.
pliant token
didnt found anything in ravenholdt guide?
pseudo hamlet
If there are still multi targets -> use FoK and put rupture on them(to keep energy gain). Then just FoK+Envenom. If you have CT -> use it(but only if you have more targets) etc.
pliant token
ok thx, i will try 😄
grizzled trail
also getting there
got one expediant in bags but goin to wait till wednesday. see if i get a decent piece to put it on (legs please)
grizzled trail
just wondering if the TA on weapon will always be worth keeping
tropic ocean
dunno I gonna purge it once I got more expedients
sick scarab
mm lol
tropic ocean
cuz ta is rng bad
deft obsidian
Probably asked a few times but is GW nurf live for raidbots?
limber lion
I'm so tilted that my main had 0 echoes before the update and I managed to grind 2 Expedients and now it's going away already. Meanwhile my alt warrior got 3 expedients without much trouble because he had 10k stockpiled already :') I'm gonna be far behind everyone else for weeks now. Ugh.
Yes @deft obsidian
tribal marlin
you'd better off buying strikethrough before it left and come back in 3 month 
tribal marlin
ye I just hope they will not like put the same corrupt on multiple rotate
and some other once very 21230 rotation
storm nymph
Random question, which Mech ring is better...the 3 ability one or attacking from behind?
cobalt pelican
behind
storm nymph
thought so 🙂
fierce vine
has anyone tried ineffable stacking + 3x NP
uncut cape
hope GW will be on sale soon
deft obsidian
3 mins 
finite moss
@fierce vine woah sick idea, i might have to sim that
grizzled trail
all about those 3min sim. gotta make myself look strong
3min is the only way u will get shrouded to sim higher 😛
wicked comet
never understood why all the sims are 5 mins for patchwerk
static glacier
because during prog they can take 5 mins I guess?
frigid briar
I just look at kills previous week then sim for that amount
deft obsidian
Farm wise, little take 5 anyways but yeah just a prog bench mark
static glacier
at this point in time with how overgeared we all are compared to release
yeah simming 5 mins seems silly
deft obsidian
With exception to wrathion/n'zoth etc;
grizzled trail
Yeh so stop shitting on me ereb:(
deft obsidian
Sorry bro, can't help it as people do the same to me 😦
deft obsidian
Helter Skelter though, worst sim package eu
frigid briar
We will be simming 1 minute by september kek
static glacier
29 second sim 
grizzled trail
Yup and we will be bottom dps
deft obsidian
And I meant kill time wise for farm, not so much patchwerk
grizzled trail
Parse 99 bottom dps
frigid briar
remember simming for those 17 second fel reaver kills
static glacier
why exactly are we so erm, not optimal atm
frigid briar
cancel aura macros ect lol
deft obsidian
But on that topic @grizzled trail I also committed to the bleeds having finally gotten Ra'den helm this clear, I dig
urban thistle
does haste increase the tick rate of garrote/rupture/poison? Not a sin player
static glacier
yes
urban thistle
is there a breakpoint?
static glacier
no
the last tick is not full power, breakpoints don't really matter
based on how close you are to next tick
hastewise
urban thistle
oh, gotcha
and that would hold true for a level 80 sin rogue, as well, correct?
I'm playing sin for a herald of the titans run
frigid briar
I assume there will be points where you gain an extra tick for each ability, never looked into it that much but I guess because haste buffs so many spells you just keep pumping it
drifting cloud
is sin even good at 80
frigid briar
is that ulduar?
urban thistle
yea, well, sounds to me like there is a breakpoint, but you would have to know the duration of the fight in order to determine it
yes, algalon
everyone has to be 80 with ilvl 100 or less gear
and yes, sin is amazing
static glacier
there used to be breakpoints, but with haste adding dmg to the final tick till it's full dmg then adding a new, weak tick there's no major breakpoints really
frigid briar
fight time wouldnt matter for break point if there was one
urban thistle
yea, ^^ that's news to me
Yes it would lol. There would be a finite amount of haste you would need in order to get 1 more tick of each DoT
frigid briar
how long the boss lived wouldnt matter though. its about gaining ticks per rupture cycle?
it wouldnt be 1 tick for whole fight
urban thistle
but assuming 100% uptime, it'd be the same, just one would be the first number * number of rupture applications
it's effectively the same measurement
unless I'm super misunderstanding how the dots work
but re application doesn't reset tick count to the start, I assume
static glacier
thing is, gaining a tick doesn't do anything
since the tick would be piss poor dmg
if you just passed the extra tick's breakpoint
urban thistle
But I thought only the final tick of the DoT did reduced damage
static glacier
and outside of empowered garotte we don't really let any dot tick its final tick
urban thistle
So I'm at 43.21% crit, and 10.70% haste, and I'm wondering if I should drop crit for haste. The gearing options are pretty limited, though
drifting cloud
you are overcomplicating for no reason
tribal marlin
you do unless you refresh out of pandemic range which you should not
urban thistle
I see
drifting cloud
if anything just sim stat weights if its even remotely accurate for lvl 80
to see if theres some huge differences
frigid briar
for herald of the titans it dont matter shit, the bosses still melt anyways right?
urban thistle
That's the thing I am thinking, I want to do sims, but I don't even know if they'll work for a level 80 character. I guess I could make one
static glacier
are you struggling to down the boss?
drifting cloud
for gems, since not like you can swap alot of gear for herald anyways
static glacier
if not just run with what you enjoy
urban thistle
I don't wanna just be #1 on my friend group's meters, I want to make 2nd place look bad
yea, but what sim profile. I'm thinking I might have to create one for an 80 rogue
grizzled trail
Haste is a lot of fun, can’t even empty my energy if I wanted too
frigid briar
I mean back then had BiS lists, cant you just use something like this
https://sunwell-community.com/index.php?/topic/4037-guide-ulduar-t8-bis-assasination-rogue-list/&__cf_chl_jschl_tk__=e20c8966af74e8c0db3628c57761e12cca598434-1590250983-0-Af7Fi7QnFAd5KWQ0m3t8av7EJheVotzQanwH8RJgjZSOX2cg2d61gDgGMa1SXRd4GFAoMLkSu4yBoL-4BZXGFBVScREHegUQ-bkVW7LaK7eqQuD9olhy4RJezl7Tva8gFDu6ivJTaJuIZqCXs4GkGtMf8fKu4oPMdZU5AE2iXpe2BDRl3sveNqBjsT6EjoPMcOX56PuHGHWFM93TVbfkN4yCUmFmbj63ucqNMatLAegjm8ncdaNMnU9yA9J9auJ-5ztlWjdH6nUgU4GgxgfsCqB8SeFcVG6ROSvPg4SWmzeVeQ6rc0NvGu0FAVUs9wwXtwqdXJoHPPFWvFQGUw3RdV0Q99PmTrkcbOwEI0B1zlcT
static glacier
armor pen
drifting cloud
like I said the only gear you can really swap is gems
static glacier
😮
urban thistle
You actually can't swap gems lol
There is a single gem that is just far and away the best
no question or competition
drifting cloud
well then not like you have insane amount of options
how many slots even have more than 2-3 items
the budget from sockets is just insane on that gear
frigid briar
AP gem everything
urban thistle
almost none
but I mean, is 1 haste worth 1 agi and 1 crit? probably not
what about 2 haste?
this is what I'm wondering
static glacier
in that case perhaps just sit at a dummy perfecting your rotation
gear seems set in stone
you can sim gear compare if you want an answer to that question
urban thistle
I don't know how to sim a level 80 character, and that's why I'm here, to see if anyone has any ideas
aside from writing my own apl
which I really don't wanna do
drifting cloud
do you lose any core abilities outside of tb
urban thistle
And yea, I would do the target dummy comparison if I even had the gear to test with. Hard to get BiS when everything is on a weekly lockout
No, I have everything else
drifting cloud
the default apl should be fine or?
or does it not work at all
and then the biggest question would be if assa is even good for herald
urban thistle
drifting cloud
if you wanna demolish people .P
urban thistle
It's supposedly amazing for herald
the only thing that it is supposed to lose to is a BiS fury warrior
drifting cloud
as long as you have gear and do basic assa rotation should be fine then
we used to do it with half the raid in heirlooms
urban thistle
I mean, I killed the boss on progression however many years ago, but I have no idea how faceroll it is these days
either way, it's fun min maxing, it's basically pve twinking
drifting cloud
its easy, then sometimes blizzard scaling breaks the boss for a bit every other xpac
in mop or whenever people would like 5 man it or something like that
urban thistle
can't do it in heirlooms these days
drifting cloud
then sometimes the boss would not give achiev or just 1shot the tanks, those sort of things
but yeah no clue what the current state hes in, I know my boosting community does it so it cant be that hard
late tusk
vapid scarab
well you press one defensive and then you press another
wind nymph
Sup guys,
what do you suggest to improve this setup?
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/shxgCCsvnZ1yDLL9ZL664X
frigid grotto
guys which corruptions should i have for pvp?
tropic ocean
versa %
lone junco
20 haste plus verse stack sounds nice.
Tendys get dead too soon these days. Used to be a lot of fun.
frigid grotto
ye thats what im thinking
i think in goin to purify my tens
in order to get more vers
tall rose
I have a question. When i run top damage its telling me to take a Echoing void r2 over a void ritual r2. Both have the same corruption.. On the St chart it shows that VR is way ahead.. Why would it be telling me to go EV R2. Am i missing something?
distant lava
because the chart isn't adapted to your gear
that's why you sim yourself instead of looking at it
tall rose
i did sim thats why asked.. Guess ill go with it.. just thought size for szie vR would of been better.
drifting cloud
EV for assa? thats kinda weird
tall rose
yea
drifting cloud
I know vr isnt anything special but ev is pretty dogshit for assa
tall rose
but the ring has like 200 more haste and i have 2 r3 exp and 1 r2 atm.. i guess maybe thats why cause it has more haste
drifting cloud
thats a more likely reason yeah
stable isle
Did you have void ritual allies enabled?
strange python
!guide
prisma monolithBOT
strange python
Mindflay is crap for PvP. People just tab kill it
lone flower
Question: I was looking at openers with subterfuge and some are doing garrote>mutilate>mutilate>rupture and some garrot>mutilate>garrote>rupture, whats the difference/the right opener? (all openers were played with vision major, 3x nothing personal and toxic blades)
analog phoenix
the only option for mindflay is when you play with DISC and he is smart enough and fast enough to shield it
quasi scroll
I play like 80% pve
outer lotus
or play at low ranks and people dont kill them
quasi scroll
I know mindflay sucks for pvp... but is it dumb to get vers for pve?
verbal sparrow
Boiz, Which one to keep (for Exa 3 and I can make a hole for socket tho)
I wonder which one to corrupt, because those 465 have good stats but I'm afraid I can drop better ones
calm lily
get a socket on the left one and then corrupt it right?
analog phoenix
I'm so uncertain if I should keep the two expedient IIIs I just bought. they are just such a minor gain dps wise and I could just invest all into outlaw m+ gameplay, have a lot to gain there. but then again, removing one IS piece for these will also make my fights just way less random
shy axle
My normal sim (3x DD, bbi, hod, NP) simmed at 90,6k prior to the gushing nerf ( r6 TA/ 2 gushing) 88,6k now. I get 93,6k with bleed build and 93,1k with DD instead using a truckload of expeds and 1 or 2 severes. Any tipps how people get the jump to 100k+ ? Do the extra ilvl from the chest make that much of a difference? Hard to picture it for myself whats the thing that makes it better.
tropic ocean
more expedients
485 weap
475 vita
more sockets
also at some point haste essence will outsim lucid too
tropic ocean
there cant be too much basically
after some time u want 1 racing pulse or so
with rest expedients
zinc furnace
i hit 249% haste at ine point
zinc furnace
y
zinc furnace
o have 475 gale and other procs
tropic ocean
ah well yeah
upper elm
When i go for td 4 i go td3 + 1 But why Not 2+2 is there any difference?
shy axle
thanks mate
verbal sparrow
btw, so should I go for corrupting those 465 boots I posted or wait ?
zinc furnace
wait for weekly chest
ruby notch
guys thoughts on three rank3 expendiant + one rank2 expendiant pieces ? ^^ or would that be to much ?
distant lava
@upper elm no difference excepts the stats that change from your items
grizzled trail
I run 3 rank 3 and two rank 2
Secondary’s on my items aren’t amazing but all my stat weights are fairly close which is nice
ruby notch
K ty, got several sims running ~.~ waiting for output ^^
deft obsidian
I’m currently R14 Expedient and R3 Pulse. I tried simming into more Expedient but falls short of Pulse
zinc furnace
envy u. sims trokls me every time. like i changed crit gems to haste, theb upgraded 1 item and it says switch all 6 gems back to crit
deft obsidian
Like @grizzled trail my stat weights are just about equal
zinc furnace
and whilenit suggests socketing xrit it removes deadly navigation for mastery one
kill me
grizzled trail
Just go with what top gear says
The difference is so minor it really doesn’t matter
deft obsidian
Yeah I can regem and enchant a few bits but we’re talking 120~ dps
So I’ll stay as is
lament dove
I didn't play for months and now I'm just casually gearing in m+ at 463 with a crit setup, not sure if I will mythic raid before Shadowlands, should I still stack up some expedient from Mother, or is there something else to consider?
hallow coyote
How many of yall are running Deeper Strat now with these monstrous haste levels we can get ?
grizzled trail
I’m running deeper strat
Takes a while getting used to as assa man
I keep Dumping 4 combo points
zinc furnace
showgunn how much haste?
gleaming viper
My normal sim (3x DD, bbi, hod, NP) simmed at 90,6k prior to the gushing nerf ( r6 TA/ 2 gushing) 88,6k now. I get 93,6k with bleed build and 93,1k with DD instead using a truckload of expeds and 1 or 2 severes. Any tipps how people get the jump to 100k+ ? Do the extra ilvl from the chest make that much of a difference? Hard to picture it for myself whats the thing that makes it better.
how did he manage to clone his gear ?
grizzled trail
I’m like 55% or something
zinc furnace
did DS sim better or just experimented?
55% sounds stronk
dunno how u all get this high with decent crits retained
grizzled trail
It sims better for me
hallow coyote
I'm at 41.85 pre buffs and it still simms better
coarse solar
Can anyone explain to me exactly how Exsang works? Reading it, I thought it would double the speed at which my bleeds tick down, but it actually just seems to cut a big chunk of time off of them (50% of remaining duration?) and deal all that damage at once? Experimented with it in m+ today and had decent results but not really sure on the best way to use it yet
hallow coyote
Yeah it halves the duration and keeps the damage the same
It's good priority damage cause you take all the damage from empowered garrotes and pandemic'd Ruptures and frontload them
coarse solar
Yeah that’s what I was doing and shot up to like 150k DPS on a single mob. Fun to use for sure, just not sure whether it beats out TB. Seems easier to use and works better with SS/Sub
crimson palm
Can anyone explain to me exactly how Exsang works? Reading it, I thought it would double the speed at which my bleeds tick down, but it actually just seems to cut a big chunk of time off of them (50% of remaining duration?) and deal all that damage at once? Experimented with it in m+ today and had decent results but not really sure on the best way to use it yet
@coarse solar so you're saying that an ability that makes dots tick twice as fast reduced the duration of them by 50%?
grizzled trail
I personally think TB is much easier to use than exsang
Exsang is fun tho takes a little more forward thinking
tranquil moat
Anyone here running sin in m+?
crimson palm
So instead of the dots doing full damage in 36s they do it in 18 sec,?
primal turret
is there any essence worth buying atm?
coarse solar
@coarse solar so you're saying that an ability that makes dots tick twice as fast reduced the duration of them by 50%?
@crimson palm yes, but it doesn’t actually line up with what the tooltip says. The tooltip says bleeds deal damage 100% faster, NOT bleeds deal half of their remaining damage at once. Hence why it was confusing
crimson palm
It makes perfect sense
deft obsidian
Deeper strat simmed higher at rank 11 expedient and as DDx3. Just with higher haste levels it becomes a much better choice
junior flume
Do you let the bleed run out entirely before reapplying after popping exsang? It's been ages since I've played with exsang,
lament dove
yes, otherwise you overwrite ticks from the empowered bleed
deft obsidian
Empowered is full drop off, non-empowered is just under the usual 5secs
junior flume
Yea that's what I thought, I just didn't remember, been ages 🙂
deft obsidian
But yeah reapplication won’t be affected by exsang
junior flume
So if you exsang with non empowered garrote then you refresh at 5.3 as usual?
scarlet sequoia
you never refresh exsang bleeds.
junior flume
Alright, it didn't make sense to me that you would, but I'm just a pleb. Always nice to know for sure 🙂 Thanks y'all
scarlet sequoia
np bro keep at it
deft obsidian
How’s the sim looking @scarlet sequoia. Did you hit your goal of R3 prior to vendor swap
glacial steppe
did you had echoes before or farmed 3s?
deft obsidian
Are you as sick of visions as me? 🤢😂
glacial steppe
KEKW
deft obsidian
Ah ha. Just as fun hahaha
little root
what in the hell is that raz
deft obsidian
What is it a 3s win anyways?
grizzled trail
Holy shit raz, nice grinding my dude
glacial steppe
too bad i suck at pvp
rancid bobcat
where did i lose 5k dps from 
plush remnant
What are your guys recommendations for gear improvements?
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/pwKAY5xGdJsM18Ti9efaKW
ripe gulch
anyone know the ammount of haste needed for exsang build to work?
vast forum
it works at any levels 🙂
but TB works better at certain levels and it's not a specific number
deft obsidian
I’m now at 52% and feels smooth.
deft obsidian
Got a raid bot link to check gear @ripe gulch
junior flume
Only 41 here too, but noticed that haste food gives about 2% now with 3 expedient
deft obsidian
With vita proc, overwhelming power & racing pulse. You get some crazy haste levels that’s for sure
fleet whale
it's pretty much heroism, in fact it might even be better
ripe gulch
also should i run racing pulse instead of one of the severes
lament valve
sword or dagger
scenic nacelle
I'm assuming raidbots already has the Gushing nerf active, right?
drifting cloud
nightly has it as of yesterday or today yeah
scenic nacelle
Going to have to cleanse gushers now to have an ethical sub 40 set
deft obsidian
Depends @ripe gulch, you run a top gear sim yet? Pulse sims really high for me currently
fluid bough
Is assassination a viable spec to run as your main spec if you’re only doing m+ and pvp or am I limiting myself by not playing outlaw in m+? I’m just now starting rogue, coming from demon hunter where I’ve gotten bored.
grizzled trail
Assa is completely viable in m+
fleet whale
yes it's viable to main in all content
grizzled trail
Sure it’s not as good as outlaw but it’s fine
scenic nacelle
Biggest issue is getting all your echoing blade azerite from the vendor
fluid bough
So can I run the same pieces of gear in pvp and PvE if I play assassination?
drifting cloud
not really
fleet whale
no not really
grizzled trail
I mean it depends what level you’re planning on playing at
honest silo
Assassination probably has the most amount of combinations of azerite from all the specs I play
fluid bough
2k is my goal with a friend. He’s starting a mage and I’m starting to play rogue.
grizzled trail
Yeh you will@need different sets then
fluid bough
Okay I’ll worry about that when I get there I guess lol I am still low level.
fleet whale
the pvp channel here may be able to help you more though, the spec channels are pve based generally speaking
fluid bough
Okay once I start gearing I’ll definitely go talk to them some
Pvp is really my secondary though. M+ is much more fun atm I think. Even though I’ve only pvp up until BFA.
honest silo
problem mostly comes to M+ wanting a lot of crit and pvp wanting as little as possible
slender wolf
hi guys, is there a specific channel for rogue pvp?
broken zodiac
Hello guys, i recently notice that most best rogues have change talents from Master assassin (crit) to Subterfuce + 3SS (with many haste)
Do you know why it's better?
Because i don't see the difference..
gleaming viper
whats the new opener now ? with subt,ds, exs and bote ?
deft obsidian
Obtainable levels of haste really
vast forum
it outscaled TB 
broken zodiac
TB?
vast forum
toxic blade
strange python
If the sims is telling me that SS and heart of darkness is better then DD, should i just fallow the sim or just run DD?
for ST
vast forum
3ss, 2hod, bbi is the best trait setup at high-end gear levels
with deeper strat and exsang
strange python
oh that trait
ocean drum
2 questions from me: is exs-build viable in m+? and what's the opener? like 2x garrote out of stealth, rupture, exs?
primal turret
I tried it this week and works fine
deft obsidian
I tend to run it regularly with literally just my raid ST setup as I’m not pushing above 20s and I’ve no EB azerite. Pumps around 90-100k overall
primal turret
in large mobs your damage isnt that high
deft obsidian
And that is running BOTE with no TD shit
primal turret
but is really good in bosses
ocean drum
ye, kinda bursty, i guess. should be tending to use pandemic on garrote & rupture before using exs over the fight while keeping exs on cd, am i right?
deft obsidian
Probably still got combat for fort weeks though. In tyr weeks the trash dies before garrotes drop
primal turret
In a situation where there is a priority target you should garrote on 3 targets, rupture on the main one and ex
You are right ereb
ocean drum
ye, right, ereb
primal turret
Works this week with tyranical
wicked comet
does garrote still have that bug where if you do a regular one after doing subterfuge ones it does less damage
vast forum
no
drifting cloud
incredible
vast forum
it's been fixed for over a year and a half now
wicked comet
not played since uldir
primal turret
I didnt knew that it was fixed
vast forum
@ocean drum opener is g-r-g-vend-mut-rup-exsg-bote
tropic jackal
wait so i dont need to wait until garrote drops off completely to refresh?
vast forum
no no
there used to be a bug
where if you put subt garrotes on 3 targets
and then normal garrote on 4th
the first 3 would lose the subt buff
jolly star
w8 w8 w8, so if i get 3x SS garrote and refresh it after subterfuge it's still doing bonus damage for original duration?
vast forum
and they would all be weak
tropic jackal
ohhh i see
vast forum
@jolly star no
vast forum
i personally prefer assa on fort
on tyrannical, bosses live the awkward amount of time where you don't really get a 2nd vanish/vendetta
but also the fight is long
primal turret
It depends on the key level
deft obsidian
In fairness you can kind of play whatever if 10-19
I still tend to play sin in higher keys as my DH/Mage blows shit up
jolly star
deft obsidian
Outlaw is just if I’m being lazy and want to face roll my keyboard through a key
jolly star
i hate this statless shit
gleaming viper
whats the opener now on single target with the new build ? (SStraits, subterfuge, DS, exs, bote )
vast forum
if you have a ton of aoe in your group, like fire mage/dh/bm, i find assa's dmg profile much better than outlaw's in higher keys as it really shortens boss fights
i think we need a proper exsang guide...
every 3 minutes someone comes in here asking about SS/exsg opener
drifting cloud
they still would
vast forum
if you scroll up 10 messages, you get the answer
jolly star
opener is g-r-g-vend-mut-rup-exsg-bote
jolly star
he asked about bote
gleaming viper
ok ok ty !
deft obsidian
I agree @vast forum even as outlaw we are there for control and utility. Any DH/BM etc will destroy us on trash unless some godlike TD procs. Sin does actually bring some good value and even more in specific dungeons
vast forum
ks?
jolly star
kidney shot
vast forum
oh ye
tbh, bte is sometimes an issue 😄
when you DR stuns on targets that you need to stun later 😛
jolly star
it sux on sanguine
deft obsidian
You don’t 👀😂
jolly star
i bte in pools way too often
vast forum
now, i'm not saying assa is better than outlaw, but i often play assa in my group for melting bosses
untold current
I see alot of logs with exsang/bote, is that a preference or are there sitautions where its pref. I would assume that CLF sims higher for most bc of the haste?
vast forum
CLF sims higher on 5 min but there are no 5 min ST fights in ny'alotha
jolly star
@untold current high end gear favours it a bit
deft obsidian
Yeah combat definitely has more control. But also can hit like a wet fish versus others
vast forum
i personally find assa has better dps than outlaw (bear in mind, i have no raden weps)
in m+
jolly star
idk, it's hard to pull off ~15s of 300k dps as assa
vast forum
it's really not
jolly star
where as outlaw u press 3 buttons and smash
vast forum
if you have a 6 target pull with vanish off CD
jolly star
haha
vast forum
6 garrotes - bote - fok spam
jolly star
yeah, but thats 2min downtime before u can repeat it
vast forum
i mean, you get 150k dps easily every 3-target pull if you get a restealth between pulls
jolly star
and god forbid tank chainpulls
vast forum
the problem being that at really high keys, you often want to chainpull
deft obsidian
Like don’t get me wrong, trash is relevant as is boss damage depending on the week but again, on a fort week with your DH running BOTE, Fel Barrage and TOS poison trinket. You don’t need more cleave 😂
vast forum
for example, a lot of groups do motherlode trash before first boss in 1 long chain-pull
deft obsidian
And yeh, you need restealths 😂
And instance like KR for example is a pretty solid sin dungeon. Lots of medium sized packs etc
ocean drum
thanks, @vast forum 🙂
verbal sparrow
Guys, do you think somehow split up haste and versa would be good ? (corruptions)
vast forum
versa corruptions are shit for pve
vast forum
for pvp you just want all versa 😄
vast forum
well
jolly star
why tho
vast forum
get on the grind then 😄
verbal sparrow
but I'm not such a tryhard that I could have both 😄
vast forum
and make 2 full different sets in a month 😄
deft obsidian
😂😂
jolly star
i farmed 5k echoes today and i refuse to farm them untill #3 expedient is back
vast forum
i'll farm all the echoes so i can buy infinite expedients when they're back
deft obsidian
Yeah I purchased 3, I’ll collect echoes now until they appear again. Don’t “need” them currently
vast forum
i only got to buy 3 this cycle
deft obsidian
IS? 😮
vast forum
i had 0 vessels coming into the week
and i DCed in 1 of my visions
meanwhile my mage has 12 vessels
jolly star
IS is good on two bosses
deft obsidian
I had 4 vessels, no echoes
jolly star
and they are hardly 'hard'
deft obsidian
Stopped doing dailies like months ago now it feels like
vast forum
worth doing them nowadays 😄
deft obsidian
Yeah needless to say, I’m back to it
jolly star
dailies? dailies don't give echoes
deft obsidian
I was doing dailies on 5 toons and got burnt out
Dailies to get vessels to get echoes 🤪
vast forum
dailies give coalescing visions 😄
deft obsidian
Yeah I regret not having more
verbal sparrow
how long do you think it will take for expedients to get back ? 🤔
jolly star
~1m?
grizzled trail
It’s just terrible how you get out at a disadvantage for playing the game
I know people who had 20k echoes goin into this man
Put at
I knew the corruption I wanted would be first up for sale, sucks man
gleaming viper
50k farm in 3,5 days ?
jolly star
rustic fractal
Arena / M+ spam is a hell of a drug
glacial steppe
3s on 2.4k+ net you like 150-180 per win afaik
jolly star
thats 250 wins
gleaming viper
it means more than 250 arena win
jolly star
if u get 200
glacial steppe
well, thats doable if you actually have the time
grizzled trail
Has anyone worked out the best possible corruption combo at highest corruption resist?
jolly star
undoable
jolly star
it's 12.5 hours of playing arenas, while on average winning a game 100% of the time in 3min's max
that's too much even for korea
deft obsidian
I mean I could, but progress is over
rustic fractal
12.5 hours is nothing
deft obsidian
No amount of grind is worth that for farm. Personally ha
jolly star
12.5 back to back arena games, not counting queues
winning 100% of those
250 games
bit**, please
drifting cloud
and he tanks mmr when cr gets too high so every game is a 30s win
jolly star
holy shit, i wouldn't believe if someone told me there are so hardcore farmers
ocean drum
okay guys, i need your help. I'm kinda confused: i thought when i used exs, the dots's remaining time was halved - but it is not? neither does the tooltip of bleeds change numbers?!
jolly star
who dat
warped panther
okay, I have a question. I don't know what to do to be able to sim higher
In mythic raiding what is the best talent to use?
I saw some higher sim with deeper strat + exsangu, but I don't know if that's optimal.
What are some better corruptions to use?
I have some TA and IS but I feel like IS is RNG heavy and want to be more consistent
topaz valley
Is there some way you can put corruption on an item in raidbots?
placid pollen
Is crimson tempest worth is for M+? Or is it more for fort week only?
topaz valley
i'd like to sim before applying expedients
topaz valley
Okay thanks
strange python
i tried to sim with corruption but it doesnt want to put corruption where i want it to be in
cobalt pelican
does it matter
if you're planning a different upgrade path expedient on one piece of gear or another is 0 difference
strange python
i want to purify everything and just add the haste% corruption and it just say current gear is better
steel holly
What will become top arena corruption?
cobalt pelican
why would you want to purify everything
i'm confused
top gear literally takes your gear and adds whatever corruptions you tick to any piece of gear and duplicates the sets
gleaming viper
@zerf raidbot can only add 2 corruption and it will be on random stuff except ilvl scale corruption
strange python
the current on i have on are not good
cobalt pelican
versatile/surging vitality/gw for pvp probably
in which order idk
but versatile is a safe bet
strange python
increase crit by x amount stack by 5 and such is what i have
cobalt pelican
why would oyu want to remove that from your gear thoug
i don't get it
unless you're trying to sim yourself in 2 months
strange python
so i can stack haste
steel holly
Ty nameless fairy
strange python
1 atm
cobalt pelican
ok well
strange python
but trying to set up
cobalt pelican
you're stuck with 1 for now, so probably just top gear your gear with a single replacement expedient 3 so you can find your best gear?
upgrade paths are complicated
there's actually 0 reason to try and figure out your gear for in a month
vital haven
if it says current gear is better my suggestion would be not to cleanse everything
worldly sandal
so no cara dagger again last night team. tilted because two other rogues in my guild got it on their first run through- we let alts/non regular raiders join heroic now.
vital haven
i feel like people are getting a bit obsessed wihtt eh 100k+ sims
worldly sandal
5 weeks in a row sadpepe
vital haven
those come with time, dont start whole sale cleansing your gear
dreamy cypress
if you really want to sim some super specific major overhaul of your corruptions/gear just use gear compare
deft obsidian
Indeed. It’s a good bench mark but ultimately gotta roll with the punches
cobalt pelican
infinite stars hasn't been changed..?
lime edge
tooltip is bugged
verbal sparrow
When I have only 4/12 M which azerite items should I go for when I cant have the Il'gy, Raden, Vex nor Carapace? Gorak's and ?
cobalt pelican
i can't say that i really keep track of bloodmallet relative dps gain charts, i'd assume all that happened is that they regenerated their profiles
goraks, slithering loa/maut and cephalohide probably
verbal sparrow
Im going for SS exsang build tho
cobalt pelican
uh
i mean forcing it without mythic gear is going to be rough
but if you insist
irontide/gorak(or extravagant)/type 2 bomber jacket are probably best? idk if there's a better helm than ss/ttk
sly shoal
There's a NP/SS helm idk if that's good though
verbal sparrow
I have bomber, trying hunt gorak but i have gold tasseled and I have gibbering maw from Raden
dreamy cypress
Cowl of Fluid Machinations has NP/SS
Also 2 M+ NP/SS chests, but idk how those sim
cobalt pelican
probably pretty badly compared to goraks/clockwork pieces
idk on helm, both dust pieces sound like ass and i wouldn't be surprised if heroic r aden is better
should be easy enough to check though i guess
thin gate
wait
the sim says gushing wound > expedient
right
but expedient stack is better than gushing wound isnt it?
i mean raden+wrathion trinket un full expedient stack should be stronger or not
on high haste build
primal turret
Idk about wrathion trinket on sims but in combat it isnt that good
lime edge
@thin gate are u talking about bloodmallet
if so, bloodmallet isnt updated with the nerfed gushing
no sims are
until the patch goes live
fleet whale
raidbots nightly is updated with the nerf
lime edge
is the nerf live?
fleet whale
no, but raidbots nightly has already updated for it
hence my sim dropped by a little over 1k
fleet whale
correct
kindred pelican
Is it worth to try to save exsan for haste proccs due to it snapshotting or should it just be used on cd? My haste fluctuates between 53% to like 160% so its very inconsistent.
lime edge
probably not worth saving
but if u have galecaller's for example
u want to use that right before u exsang
kindred pelican
Yeah, that makes sense. I play raden and plumage so i'll just go for it on CD
last sandal
Hey all, quick question. When running Elaborate Planning, is it worth letting buffed Garrotes/Ruptures expire or just keep reapplying as usual?
vestal dagger
As far as I know, never refresh a buffed bleed early
loud brook
Honestly, I never even think about planning around elaborate planning anymore
last sandal
That's what i had been doing, haha.
vestal dagger
I don’t think anyone plans around EB, and it’s probably ok to refresh a buffed bleed with a buffed bleed that’s in pandemic range
loud brook
That reminds me
vestal dagger
Not 100% on that
feral creek
Does rupture snapshot EB?
last sandal
Okay, yea, I thought that it'd be fine like that, but it popped into head and really couldn't find snapshot details
loud brook
If I run exanguinate, do I let my bleeds tick off or can I refresh them during the regular pandemic range
cobalt pelican
after you exsanguinate you let the exsanguianted bleeds fall before refreshing
everything else is standard
feral creek
U want to let them run out and apply when them gone
cobalt pelican
and idk what you mean by snapshot eb
fleet whale
I guess he/she meant snapshot EP?
vestal dagger
Oh I wrote EB above when I meant EP.
feral creek
Yeah EP I mean in the window from ep apply rupture will buff rupture for the entire duratiom?
loud brook
I thought our dots updated each tick
fleet whale
Too my knowledge it's dynamic, i could be wrong but the only things that snapshot for assassin are nightstalker Rupture and subt garrote
loud brook
Only like feral druids still have snapshotting
feral creek
Okay👍🏻 thank you
loud brook
Oh yeah, forgot about subterfuge garrote
tiny fiber
what should we be putting our expedients on haste crit pieces? haste mastery?
cobalt pelican
everything is dynamic for rogue dots besides haste on exsang
loud brook
I like haste crit because I have most haste crit gear
I'd imagine the same holds true for haste mast
fleet whale
I just choose my highest ilvl pieces on my ST raiding set to put exp rank 3 on
most of them happen to have haste though
loud brook
From my sims before corruptions, all my stats were really close to each other
With rank some expedient it's still all even
minor thicket
At what point does switching to exsangugate make sense. I was only able to buy one expedient. Currently my exsangugate build and my normal subterfuge build sim within 1.5k of each other.
Nvm I read the Pin
urban minnow
@jolly star what do u do go@grind 5k
slim oxide
Hey guys im trying to perfect my set: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/9XBQC5GnXTRcJ4dbvWwudt
but how much base Haste should i run?
arctic walrus
royal lantern
haste in m+ is not really a good stat
less value then your other stats in aoe, and m+ is aoe for most of the time
slim oxide
so i should just go crit mastery fully ? @royal lantern
ocean drum
in exs build i let garrote & rupture run out fully, right? pandemic refresh is overwriting, isn't it?
royal lantern
@slim oxide ye
ocean drum
kk, ty (:
royal lantern
and ye, you let them run out and at the moment the timer is at 0 you immediatly put a new bleed on it for 0 downtime
otherwise you would,well, waste a big chunck of exsang
tropic ocean
crit/mastery or crit/vers with echoings in fortified weeks
ripe gulch
thats hive
prisma perch
I am Derias some help?
vital haven
gz @ripe gulch
slim oxide
@royal lantern i still think its weird not running haste
royal lantern
crit has its main value cus of,well, how EB works, how CP generation with FoK works, crits on multidotting etc.....
mastery makes all your bleeds/poisons stronger, and a big part of your dmg in m+ is garrote
haste makes "only" your energy reg higher(wich is not a real problem in aoe), autoattack speed(doesnt matter in aoe) and tickrate of your dots(not as much dmg increase as your other stats in aoe)
haste is the big boi for st, in aoe other stats simply have more value
MAYBE somone here knows a haste heavy m+ build im not aware off, but i honestly dont think that
tranquil moat
Anyone here playing sin in m+?
Not high keys, like 10-15?
faint harness
yea
keen pumice
yes
scarlet sequoia
i read here earlier
111k being max sim
this is not true sirs
with my current gear i can reach 114k at max corruption
strange python
Well shit. So I need to be sad I missed out on buying haste corruption 😦
worldly sandal
ill just be happy when i can finally buy some infinite stars
ive gotten everything else at this point
cobalt pelican
what for even
i don't think i've played with stars on any of my gear on my rogue since the first 2 weeks of the patch and i don't really plan for that to change
worldly sandal
mostly the single target bosses, because itd be nice to have it for those
but on that note, i heard someone talking about people taking stars in high keys during tyrannical weeks? is that actually a thing?
cobalt pelican
no
MAYBE ta but even that seems to just not be worth when stats are insanely good at everything
but i wouldn't invest echoes in a stars piece ever for anything if i were you
worldly sandal
versatile 3
cobalt pelican
vers if you pvp is about the only functional thing
worldly sandal
i think is the only good one
jovial haven
people arent excited for siphoning and avoidant?
worldly sandal
i cant even use leech corruptions on my pally since i already have TD3 and expedient so no