assassination

[lusty swan]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/hgYx6Yzypm1a9oKJsHWKmS

now it makes sense

2nd question. i should be running the crit prepot?

or unbridled ?

[rigid mango]

If it sims better and you wont be swapping target during the 20s window, yes

[lime edge]

is there a good sin weak aura that shows me my rotation?

the one i found is wrong

[rigid mango]

There's rotation helper addons

But generally I'd say learning it by yourself is better

Relying on muscle memory is better than an addon

[silent fossil]

a 12/12 mythic main rogue in my guild uses an addon for his rotation and follows it blindly even while streaming. watched it tell him to toxic > muti > garrote > rupture the other night. shits hilarious. learn it yourself, sin is easy as hell and wont take long.

[lime edge]

kk

what about addons to track bleeds on multiple targets

?

[silent fossil]

use kui name plates or plater

plater has more options but needs like a 10k IQ to setup

[rigid mango]

I mean reapplyying bleeds inside of tb is fine 👀

Plater addons help a lot for multi dotting, yeah.

[silent fossil]

its far from optimal

[rigid mango]

It isn't

It matters very little

You can reapply bleeds within 3 sec of pandemic hitting if it means you wont have to reapply inside of tb

but otherwise it's fine to reapply them inside of TB

Better than dropping them

[lime edge]

i assume u cant use both threat plates and kuinameplates?

[vestal wren]

very likely not at the same time

[lime edge]

does kui show threat

lol

[cosmic pier]

yeah

turn tank mode on

[vestal wren]

^ there is an option

[lime edge]

?

[cosmic pier]

ye

[lime edge]

gotcha

[cosmic pier]

then just set these colours to whatever you usually use

[lime edge]

transition meaning that you arent tanking it?

oh wait no

[cosmic pier]

the default colour is the one you set in the health section

[lime edge]

nvm

[cosmic pier]

means your ripping threat

[lime edge]

yea yea

forgot about that

[old saddle]

quick question regarding assasin on hivemind mythic, would ever in any situation be beneficial to go wound over deadly poison?

[lime edge]

is it just me, or does kuinameplates not have exclamation points for mobs you need to kill for quests?

[rancid bobcat]

dont go wound

your team either kills without it or cant kill with it

[old saddle]

thats my train of thought but our raid leader actively asked for it and i was liek "why the fuck would i"

[sour karma]

do u guys think assa> outlaw atm?

[old saddle]

just wante dto know if i missed something

[rancid bobcat]

tell them to ask warriors to do mortal strike

and get a windwalker

[old saddle]

windwalker got a wounds debuff?

or just for the phys dmg?

[rancid bobcat]

https://www.wowhead.com/spell=107428/rising-sun-kick

[old saddle]

never knew that

[lime edge]

how much does wound poison reduce healing by

[rancid bobcat]

i think it's 15

[warm parcel]

32 with mp

[rancid bobcat]

pretty big

[lime edge]

does this work in pvp

[rancid bobcat]

yes but it sucks

[lime edge]

oh lul

[rancid bobcat]

its meant for if you mess up in pve and take 1 big hit of damage

[lime edge]

yea ik

[rancid bobcat]

but in pvp there's like 100 small hits in a row

[lime edge]

its good for mythic+

[rancid bobcat]

so once it procs the damage just keeps going through and you die

[lime edge]

but 85% dr tho

[rancid bobcat]

you're only at 7% life

[lime edge]

then u pop ur smoke

🧠

vanish*

[rancid bobcat]

or you could take elusiveness

[lime edge]

true

[hollow robin]

!wa

[prisma monolith]

Assassination WA's for BFA:
https://wago.io/HJUbINlV7 (Mizerok's Group)
https://wago.io/E1EB91OtM (Lokkek's Group)
https://wago.io/SyLUNGD4X (Sovv's Group)
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)

[lime edge]

in a big pack of mobs, im having trouble constantly switching targets to reapply dots

mainly because the health bars are on top of each othjer

any way to fix that

im just tab targeting

:/

[rancid bobcat]

set up something that lets you see what debuffs are on your current target

not just on the nameplate

[lime edge]

not sure what u mean

[dark crag]

Anyone here who did nzoth mythic without ever going psychus?

[rancid bobcat]

your problem is you cant see your dots on nameplates when theyre too stacked

right

so have the debuffs on your current target shown somewhere else

[lime edge]

kind of

i see

is there a gladius but for mobs

where theres just a list of the ones in combat on the side and i can just click nameplates

[ocean drum]

hi! may someone tell me, why sims are telling me to not use shrouded suffocation but still recommends subterfuge? also, i really thought haste was best stat, but it tells me to enchant crit and says almost every trinket is better than vita-charged - even black humming scale? o.O what did I miss? :D
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/mWaDJDjKWwZys5153MY49D

[honest silo]

Subterfuge overtakes MA at some point even without SS

[rigid mango]

Because subt w/o SS is still really good

it scales better and when you have too much crit a fair part of MA is wasted

[ocean drum]

thanks! what about crit/haste even mastery? haste is even my worst stat, though i don't feel like 27% baseline isn't that much :/

[rigid mango]

Whatever sims best

They all good

[ocean drum]

well okay, ty 😄

[tardy nimbus]

anyone know what to use to shrink on the 1st boss in FH?

is it a toy?

[mossy pawn]

!wa

[prisma monolith]

Assassination WA's for BFA:
https://wago.io/HJUbINlV7 (Mizerok's Group)
https://wago.io/E1EB91OtM (Lokkek's Group)
https://wago.io/SyLUNGD4X (Sovv's Group)
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)

[strange python]

Burgy Blackhearts Head @goji @prisma monolith

https://www.wowhead.com/item=65665/burgy-blackhearts-handsome-hat

[glacial steppe]

do i want to use exsanguinate on cd even if it might delay my second vendetta window by 10-12s?

[lament adder]

I'm sure others could answer that more accurately but I would say it's situational. Like, if you used it now do you think you have enough time to use it 1 more time ? and things like that

[olive tusk]

you can create a WA to see if a target do have or doesn't have your dots

sry, that was an answere to an old message.

I came here because i have a question. I can see here (https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/24#class=Rogue&spec=Assassination&boss=2327) that all the players with "Vision of perfection MAJOR" do play with 3x "Nothing Personal"... Does it mean that if you don't have 3x "Nothing Personal" you should'nt play with "Vision of perfection MAJOR"? That's my 1st question.
I also see lots of players with 3x "Nothing Personal" and with "Blood of the ennemy MAJOR". So that means for me that you don't need to play "Vision of perfection MAJOR" if you have 3x "Nothing Personal"... Am I right?

Here is my sim:
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/mvLwVWvX11ZzAtGWysYyAG
Playing with "Blood of the ennemy MAJOR" or "Vision of perfection MAJOR" seems to be really similar. But is it really so? Because I have the feeling that 3x "Nothing Personal" + "Vision of perfection MAJOR" can be madness...

[strange python]

whats the question

[honest vessel]

u play it if it sims better for you and its cool with the fight

ie: the only logic for gearing

[proud wren]

anyone got a nice elvui profile i can steal?

[honest vessel]

wago.io has some cool ones

[proud wren]

i looked at some of those

[olive tusk]

go with Afenar stuff

on wago.io

WA + ELVUI

[proud wren]

okay let me check that out real fast

wa also?

[olive tusk]

yes goes together

[honest vessel]

afenar is a great place to start

personally i took his shit and made it slightly my own

[olive tusk]

https://wago.io/Afenar_Rogue and https://wago.io/AfenarUI_Profile

so just to make sure. When Vision of perfection applies a "small Vendetta", it does apply the DOT from Nothing Personal right?

[lament adder]

Is Shrouded Suffocation a trait to try to aim to always have? I took a break during BoD raid and just came back

By always have i meant always have at least 1

[olive tusk]

ShSu can be really great yes. Perfect for AOE, and good for MONO if u master Exsanguinate

only 1 is not opti

[lament adder]

Yea but is it a trait that should be sought after like how it was during Uldir/BoD

[fathom swift]

Not really, just trust your sims

[olive tusk]

yeah, not really. Check this out:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/24#class=Rogue&spec=Assassination&boss=2327

[proud wren]

i got the wa but the ui doesnt change like anything?

is the string broken or something?

https://gyazo.com/0de656f70ad7084a4315baf9e3b45e33

that use to be my ui and i really want to find something almost similar to that

cant remember where i saved my string

[shy dust]

@lament adder no

If you have high lvl gear and corruption triple SS with exsan is usually a very strong option though

[lone junco]

That is an imposter richard.

https://tenor.com/view/stare-glare-angry-aubrey-plaza-gif-15078694

[shy dust]

[harsh sphinx]

[strange python]

does anyone know the average PPM for lucid dreams' passive for assassination abilities?

[quasi scroll]

what's the thinking on Void Ritual?

[drifting cosmos]

Damn another item to go to the bank

[sour glade]

@quasi scroll It's an alright corruption, there are a lot better options. Gotta sim it.

[stiff laurel]

gutripper or elemental whirl?

[sour glade]

Prob ele whirl but sim it.

I can't believe how hard it is to get my sim higher on rogue than it was on my fury war. Still at 79.5k on rogue with 472 gear, running double heroic carapace daggers for tendies 4, expedient 3, racing pulse 2, and a gushing wound.

I was able to get pretty close to the sim on mythic Maut tonight so that's cool, but at 472 my war was already simming like 88k.

Guess I can't complain when my class has so much M+ and pvp ability that warrior doesn't that they get to do more raid damage.

[stiff laurel]

!essence

[prisma monolith]

Assassination Essences overview: https://bit.ly/2XaZOVd

[stiff laurel]

how do you sim different enchants on raidbots

trying to sim force multiplier vs quick nav

[strange python]

Top gear and then select "replace existing gems/enchants" then select the enchants ud like

[tropic charm]

So I’m currently trying to get blood of the enemy rank 3, but apart from that what are the best minor essences for M+? I unfortunately do not have C+S which sucks

[quasi scroll]

my problem with simming is I have like 6-10 items in bag for every slot

I paid for the $5/mo plan for raidbots but I can't sim "everything"

[tropic charm]

And I guess a follow up question would be for single target, without blood or conflict, what should my major and minor essences be?

[hidden bay]

prob clf major with breath/lucid and iris in minor

But as usual ->

[sour glade]

So if I was to use blood major with master assassin would I want to delay blood for vendetta vanish after each use?

[hidden bay]

Yes

[modern heart]

!tb

F

[tropic charm]

For an accurate sim, what’s the average uptime of symbiotic presence?

[fleet anchor]

In a raid it should be 90%+ most of the time

And usually that's only due to downtime. Really it's almost 100% effective uptime in most situations.

But could put 90% to be safe

[brisk forge]

How am i suppose to play around with CT? will i spam it at some point?

[gloomy steppe]

What's proper razor coral usage? Pop it once during opening burst and then save second pop for second vendetta?

[quasi pewter]

apply on opener and use every vendetta

apply again when vendetta runs out

[gloomy steppe]

Aight, figured as much - thanks

[keen spruce]

Are the pins or current blood mallet sims the most accurate for ST corruption?

has Void Ritual right behind tentacle and infinite stars, i've got a r3 void ritual but it's putting up to 49 corruption which seems a little risky for raiding

I don't have any stars or tendie gear, just wondering if it's worth sitting at 49 corruption in raid i guess. Void Ritual is a big dps bump over nothing obviously

or is it generally advised to stay at sub 40 'ruption?

[slender relic]

@keen spruce sitting at 80 Corruption is bit risky. 40 is like just move 3 yards 😛

[keen spruce]

my 2 options right now are 0 corruption or 49 lol. thing from beyond is pretty annoying but i'm not doing any cutting edge progression so maybe i'll just leave it for now

[ripe gulch]

is raiderio not updating for others too?

[silver otter]

Little essence question with BoE rank 3 and Vision of perfection Vendetta and Blood don't line-up exactly, to you still use them together ?

by delaying Blood a bit ?

[quasi pewter]

yes

always use blood in ur vendetta

[swift crest]

as assa rogues, do you guys just carry two sets of gear?

one with EB, one without?

[plain thistle]

I carry more than that 😂

[ember iron]

@proud wren - mines this, cant remember where i got it - although i customised little bits i think

[subtle tundra]

why do you have my'das on your bar demon trinket

[ember iron]

hahaha - its all i have mate 😛 im a new rogue - dont judge

[ember iron]

Q: Mythic+ building, considering ranks... this look good chaps?

[silver otter]

That's what I run in M+ with similar essences ranks personnaly

[ember iron]

Sweetabix

[plain thistle]

considering you dont have what everyone runs for mythic plus, thats probably the best option

we usually run VoP minor and not purification protocol

and blood major

[sick bone]

Hi! New to the discord. Is this the right place to post my armory for any help / hints?

[scarlet sequoia]

u could just vanish when you land

[dreamy mist]

!stats

[prisma monolith]

Assassination Stat weights:
Single target: haste > crit > mastery > vers
Multi target: crit > vers => mastery > haste
Note: Simming will always result in more accurate results.

[scarlet sequoia]

if u wanna get a good nzoth log just pad on psychus

[plucky shadow]

I need some help on how and when to use Bote rank 3, Does anyone have the rotation for that?

[stiff laurel]

is there a link for trinket sims?

[prisma monolith]

BfA Simulations:
Herodamage: https://www.herodamage.com/rogue/
Bloodmallet: https://bloodmallet.com/index.html

[vestal wren]

!sims

[late tusk]

Hello guys, this is my log https://es.warcraftlogs.com/reports/QCAtz9Y1Hd6jFaPm/
some advice about how to improve dmg? i know i got pieces from wrong set

im "pastorcilla"

[quasi pewter]

you should start with reading a guide i think

[late tusk]

I follow a guide and i follow maxDps rotation

[grim trellis]

would you still do FoKx5 in the M+ opener even without BotE?
G1 G2 G3 R1 FoK Env BotE 5xFoK

if it's on CD I mean not in the case of running a different essence

[strange python]

you dont follow a guide, and thats not a "maxDps" rotation.
at least you don't follow the guide well then 😛

Sims say I should use subterfuge for Single. Since I don't run Shrouded Sub, would the opener be something like Gar+Gar +mutilate+ rupture+mutilate (Condensed) Ven+TB then regular rotation?

its in the wowhead guide

gar mut rup

you only do double garrote when you have an SS piece

hm alright, thought you would double gar for more uptime on it being empowered

[tardy nimbus]

@strange python Thanks mate

[strange python]

with ss yes, without not

[tardy nimbus]

i guess its the only toy that works for it right?

[strange python]

the other gnome toys are too short i think, yeah

and this one has no CD, p nice

question, say on hivemind and I'm not running SS with subter, would I assume you would still garote both and rup both like in a SS M+ buid

for the opener specifically

[opal minnow]

yes

[late tusk]

wowhead rotation is right?

i will read it again, dont really know what im doing as wrong to do that shit dps

[strange python]

awesome. and sorry, one LAST question. would I then use vanish when that empowered garote in the ST opener is about to fade? Just another gar mut rup/env ?

@late tusk check the timeline from your shadhar kill and compare it to the opener and priority system explained in your guide

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/QCAtz9Y1Hd6jFaPm/#fight=last&type=casts&source=9&translate=true&view=timeline

[opal minnow]

@strange python yes, you can refresh that garrote within the pandemic window with a second empowered garrote or you can hold vanish if adds spawn soon

like on mythic ra den or xanesh

[strange python]

got you

Gameplay:
your opener is wrong, you don't get enough envenoms during your toxic blade, your garrote uptime is hella low, you missed one cast of BotE, you wasted 15 combo points from Mutilate, you used FoK once on a pure singletarget fight

General:
You don't have a Food Buff, Flask, Augment Rune, your Gear isn't enchanted at all, your Raid was missing a battleshout Buff (you can get that from war scrolls even without warriors

and your gear is shit
@late tusk

just what i can see at a glance

you can fix the gameplay by practicing and reading the guide, the general stuff you gotta spend some gold

[late tusk]

Its my second week at game will cehck it all

[strange python]

oh, and you didnt use any potions

[late tusk]

no, i dont use it

my guild say that i should wait

[strange python]

sure, fix your gameplay first if you want

[late tusk]

i will end this run and i will read you slow, and guide again

really thank you

[novel hazel]

how much envenoms do you look to typically get off during a TB window?

[opal minnow]

2-3

[novel hazel]

thanks

[tardy nimbus]

@strange python Pygmy Oil also works 10 applications make you a gnome

its super cheat to buy

[fervent fox]

!wa

[prisma monolith]

Assassination WA's for BFA:
https://wago.io/HJUbINlV7 (Mizerok's Group)
https://wago.io/E1EB91OtM (Lokkek's Group)
https://wago.io/SyLUNGD4X (Sovv's Group)
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)

[late tusk]

mmm im reading, and i suppose that bfore toxic i should save energy right?

i mean, i see myself spaming and no energy holding

[strange python]

Yes, pool Energy a bit before Toxic Blade comes up. And ideally also be at like 3 or 4 Combo Points.
You try to get as many enevenoms + mutilates during the duration of Toxic Blade as possible

[late tusk]

nice

thanks

mmm and when shuld i enchant my items?

[indigo totem]

Immediately after you sim them

[late tusk]

sim?

[frank olive]

is exsang build good in visions ?

[strange python]

Yes, big burst

Just Blast those Bosses down

[indigo totem]

@late tusk Raidbots. Maybe ask a guildie to get you started and then post Sims here for pointers/answers to the mysteries of life.

[unique fulcrum]

garrote twice out of stealth?

on pull

[strange python]

With Subterfuge and 1 or more SS traits yes

G R G

With Subterfuge and no SS traits no

G Mut R

[sour glade]

I switched to MA for raid last night because I absolutely hate how subterfuge with no SS feels. They sim about the same for me anyway.

[fossil crow]

Can anyone recommend a good weakauras script to keep track of dots on targets / poisons / etc

i miss inline aura

[vapid scarab]

what would an opener look like with SS TB and BotE? something like G>R>G>V>TB>BotE>Env>Mut till 4-5>Env?

or would I use BotE before TB

[strange python]

Bote after TB is correct

And the opener is correct

[limber merlin]

Guyz, how does Exsang work?
Like is it a Single target like Garrot or it work in a specific area

To all enemies?

That make all the Enemy in a yard to take quick bleed dmg?

[strange python]

Single target

AoE would be fucking TASTY

[limber merlin]

I see so we use it on our Main target.

And our 30 sec Rupture will turn into 15 sec Rupture after Exsang?

[scarlet sequoia]

yes our 30 second rupture will turn into 15 sec rupture after exsang

[toxic current]

how much haste is enough to go crit/other stat?

single target

[opal minnow]

there are no breakpoints

just slap on whatever top gear tells you.

[toxic current]

what addon is top gear?

[opal minnow]

simulationcraft

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/topgear

[toxic current]

ty ty

[umbral sigil]

Best traits for raid assa?

[strange python]

Look on warcraft logs

But Double Dose for SURE

I've even seen a Visions Nothing Personal build sim high

I think the only trait that's poopie that's rogue specific is Scent of Blood

I don't think I've seen anyone run it anywhere

Even in m+

[scarlet sequoia]

double dose, nothing personal, heart of darkness, blightborne infusion, shrouded suffocation

depends on your gear etc

[tender folio]

Guys for myth+ when it comes to gem sokets , should I go all versa or crit. I mean crit is prio but I was just wondering

[umbral sigil]

cele have cap? or not?

[fleet anchor]

I generally gem Crit because it's the most flexible stat and good for Outlaw also

Maybe some specific setups with large Expedient that would benefit gemming Haste but that's about it

[viscid gorge]

Hey guys, I'm pretty new to rogue and I just dont get this. I see this opener listed when you have SS, TB & BotE.
G>R>G

Why dont you just G>G>R? That way you can rupture with 5 combo points and wont have to refresh rupture during vendetta which is what I'm finding.

[opal minnow]

wasted cp unless you're running deeper strat and you have to build cp again to prep for vend/tb/bote window

[gentle oracle]

Question: Since BotE has 1.5min CD vs the 2min CD for Vend+Vanish, do you guys still use BotE while the other two are on CD or just always wait it out?

[opal minnow]

wait for the others

[gentle oracle]

nice! cause wowanalyzer is always giving me shit because I could have used it a 3rd time...

lol

[opal minnow]

if the fight will end before you get a 3rd vend you can use it with tb

[tacit steppe]

Wow analyzer isn’t maintained by anyone btw so it’s pretty useless

[gentle oracle]

I see, thank you

I just did a Maut fight, parsed really badly (at around 55) and WoW Analyzer told me I only missed 1 bote and 1 enchant.. after what you said @tacit steppe I now understand that it's actually useless what's written there. Thanks!

If anyone is willing to go over it with me please let me know!

[opal minnow]

If you're looking for feedback your best bet is to link a log here and ask for some help on what to improve

[tacit steppe]

It’s a cool idea just no one is there to keep it up to date so, best thing to do is have a log wizard look at your logs and give you some pointers

[gentle oracle]

Unfortunately I don't know any current playing log wizards haha

but I will flollow Skaro's suggestion

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/Tk7F2fRYq3K4MZGn/#fight=last&type=summary

If any log wizard is willing to go over it with me that would be awesome!

[tacit steppe]

Plenty in here, you can post them here and most people are pretty good at telling you what to fix

I’m on my phone so I can’t look as accurately but at a glance you a) refresh your bleeds during tb windows a lot b) on your second vendetta you tb’d before vendetta wasting a global you had during that TB window and C) o saw two occasions where your first global after TB was mut, which wastes energy and a global you didn’t have to in a short tb window

You have really good dot uptime and low amounts of wasted cps so that’s good

Biggest thing I see is enchanting your offhand is a good start and getting better gear in general

Also I’d be willing to bet subterfuge is probably better but you’d have to sim that to make sure

[lone junco]

@scarlet sequoia hit 100k yet?

[scarlet sequoia]

on wednesday

[ember iron]

Q: 3 x SS, 3 x EB - would you drop EB's for 1 x Nothing Personal and also drop another for anything else?

^^ currently running 3 x SS , 2 x EB and 1 x NP

[frigid kestrel]

I know the answer is typically sim, but I’m away from my computer right now and it’s a general question anyway. I’m general is Dead Eye > Vita? Just got a 465 last night and I’m wondering if I should go to Dead Eye.

[versed mica]

Dead eye is def better for m+ tho, so there's that

[frigid kestrel]

That’s what I was wondering

I don’t fully trust the Dungeon Slice sim so I figured I’d ask beforehand anyways

[vast forum]

tbh, vita buffs your whole group, probably worth wearing

it's almost like you're wearing 2 full trinkets

[drifting cosmos]

What's your second trink?

Usually vita is worth it for its group effect

[polar sinew]

Hello boys ! i have some questions for you and sorry if it's already explained (sorry too about my bad english xd)

[frigid kestrel]

@drifting cosmos vita and Jar

[polar sinew]

what kind of food do i need in assa for raid pls ? crit or Mastery or haste ?

What are the % exactly ? actually i'm : 38% crit 22% haste 40% mastery 6% Poly

Do the poisons proc on our rate of haste ? (like corruptions)

[frigid kestrel]

Most of your questions require sims. There is not set % of any stat that you need.

[polar sinew]

Enchant Weapon - Force Multiplier is better than Deadly Navigation ? on the main hand ?

[frigid kestrel]

Same with enchants sims will tell

[polar sinew]

Ah f*ck ... I always sim but i didnt know we can see our best %

[frigid kestrel]

You typically want to enchant your weapons to your top two secondary stats (top mh and second oh)

You can see your stat weighs in Raidbots

Generally thought it’s crit >/= haste > vers > mas

But like I said it’s not always true, right now in st I’m vers > haste > crit, but my AOE is crit > haste > vers

[polar sinew]

damn... i always thought it's mastery the main stat for poisons xd

well i will check that stuff more carefully next time 🙂

thanks a lot man !

[naive vigil]

what rank 3 should i buy

i raid this is a alt

[cobalt pelican]

breath blood conflict vop probably

in that order

[azure grove]

if MA subs lower than sub by like <100 dps

does it just come down to preferance at that point?

[drifting cloud]

yeah

[azure grove]

does MA work better on pure st fights like shad/wrath?

[strange python]

Why "work" better? I don't see a reason it would

[rigid mango]

If it sims give or take the same, it's obv give or take the same on bosses that are just 1 target

Like the ones you took as examples

[strange python]

Like If your pure Singletarget Sim says it's about equal, why would one work better in that case

[azure grove]

tbh I didn't think that question through

I'm just tired lol

[strange python]

Happens to the best of us

[sharp snow]

hey guys, im kinda ashamed to even write it this, been playing for years, never binded stuff on keyboard, now i got into more serious raiding and i need to sort it all out, whatever i try it just doesent feel right, would anyone spare few minutes to help

[strange python]

Comes down to Personal preference in the end. Nothings gonna feel amazing at start, but you will get used to it after a raid and some couple Keys or whatever. Or just Punch the Dummy a while.

Bind the stuff you most use to Keys that are easiest to reach is all i can say

Like, If you use wasd to move, then you should probably have mutilate, envenom, garrote and rupture on qerf123 or somewhere along those lines

And If you play multiple Specs, remember to make the same keybind for Interrupt, Stun, racial, and anything Else that is shared on all Specs

If you have a Mouse with 1 or 2 extra Buttons on the sides, it's probably recommendable to bind those to alt/Shift/Ctrl or whatever and make more keybind like alt+q alt+r etc.

To not have to reach so far If you need many binds

[fervent beacon]

So when are you sin boys going to become the CHADLAW?

[sharp snow]

thannk you guffin so much

i just click mouse button 4 + lets say 2

for kick lets say

[strange python]

Sure, and then you can have something Else on 2 without Mouse Button 4

And If you have Mouse Button 5 as Well, you can do that + 2 as well for a third one thats easy to reach

Repeat that for q,e,r,1,2,3,4 and you already have 21 keybinds that are easy to reach even without super dexterous Hands

[mystic fractal]

Wow that’s an excellent idea

Thanks man

[sharp snow]

so i should switch a,d to q,e for strife?

i mean reverse*

[strange python]

Nah Like I Said in the PM, don't rebind your movement Keys If you are used to them. Just chose Buttons that are Close to them

Want the hand resting in one place and just slightly extend Fingers from time to time

The Buttons I mentioned were Just examples

[harsh sphinx]

!wa

[prisma monolith]

Assassination WA's for BFA:
https://wago.io/HJUbINlV7 (Mizerok's Group)
https://wago.io/E1EB91OtM (Lokkek's Group)
https://wago.io/SyLUNGD4X (Sovv's Group)
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)

[vagrant brook]

Nah, just be W O K E like me and change movement to e, d, s, f so you free q, a, w and use it for abilities, plus alt+q, alt+w, shift+w, etc... Also, i use space bar for my main damaging ability, such as mutilate, sinister strike... and jump with the mouse button big brain

also mouse wheel up and down, alt+mouse wheel... are good keybindings, i think. But hey, dont trust me

[dire spoke]

using keybinds xd

[icy ember]

yo zeno, whats up w/sin being outplayed on the last 2 bosses

just curious

now my guild is approaching the final 2 bosses within the raid and supposedly outlaw is the way to go

[lone junco]

!wa

[prisma monolith]

Assassination WA's for BFA:
https://wago.io/HJUbINlV7 (Mizerok's Group)
https://wago.io/E1EB91OtM (Lokkek's Group)
https://wago.io/SyLUNGD4X (Sovv's Group)
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)

[vast forum]

outlaw is definitely not the way to go on last 2 bosses, unless you are severely lacking in cleave/aoe damage

last phase of carapace has quite a bit of downtime and any dmg on the adds as a rogue in the world of fire mages, BM hunters, DKs and DHs is just padding, you should be focusing on the boss

n'zoth is arguably ok as outlaw but it also has a lot of downtime during paranoia/mindgrasp, and burst on psychus or n'zoth is usually very good for progress

[fervent beacon]

arugably ok?

outlaw is great on nzoth because of the cleave

[rigid mango]

I mean it's fine but assa is just prog spec galore

And if u wanna count cleave in 3 SS works really well on the fight so might aswell count sin in for the cleave

[sweet inlet]

anyone got a link to the usage of coral?

the one in pins doesnt seem to exist anymore?

[rigid mango]

Huh

It's right there my dude.

[sweet inlet]

the link in pins isnt working for me :S

wont let me click it

and i manually checked in TC updates and that doesnt seem to have Coral in there anywhere

[rigid mango]

The link to TC updates is specifically Font + coral

And it's still in TC updates just a bit up

[sweet inlet]

hmm, i wonder if i need to restard discord because nothing seems to be working

nope, i dont seem to be able to click the link in pins

[rigid mango]

You can just scroll down to the channel ^^

[sweet inlet]

what date is the last update for coral then? so i can just scrtoll to that date thanks

[vast forum]

@fervent beacon what relevant cleave is there on n'zoth? the adds in p2 die to passive cleave from other classes, you don't bring a rogue for that

i mean, sure, you could maybe get higher overall as outlaw than assa on n'zoth but if you care about overall dmg on a progress fight, you're doing progress wrong

[fleet anchor]

I personally went Outlaw for both of the last two bosses but at the end of the day it depends on what your team needs.

[tropic ocean]

not sure you really need cleave unless super scuffed raid comp

[vast forum]

my guild only had 2 fire mages on progress and i didn't touch any of the adds ever, and they were never close to getting a 2nd cast off

[fleet anchor]

I mean I think that’s not really a universal statement. I can see a lot of comps where the opposite is true.

[tropic ocean]

sin is just super potent for every boss burn phase due to cd lining

[fleet anchor]

If you are running a ton of BM Hunters and Warlocks you probably don’t need ST.

If you are running a ton of Mages you probably don’t need cleave.

There’s no universal comp.

[tropic ocean]

but what else would you need with bm/locks?

They destroy the adds as well

[rigid mango]

What if you have both

[fleet anchor]

Ok don’t bring Rogues then.

[vast forum]

there's no universal comp but in almost every comp, assa is just better for progress

[fleet anchor]

Sad truth. 😛

[vast forum]

assa brings the best boss damage for n'zoth if you don't have to use CDs on psychus

[tropic ocean]

well u bring immunity for soaking

[fleet anchor]

Rogues are the most expendable pure spec this tier by far.

[vast forum]

and yea, immunity

[fleet anchor]

Mages and Hunters have that too. 😛

[vast forum]

well

[tropic ocean]

And i was playing 3ss exsang and was pretty high on boss dmg

[fleet whale]

this raid in general is not great for rogues

[vast forum]

you don't have infinite mages/hunters in your guild 😛

[fleet anchor]

You are there to cheer on your group and play as best you can.

[fleet whale]

we have no broken azerite

[tropic ocean]

would say rogue is solid

[fleet anchor]

Rogues are not required for ST or cleave. Just do what they want you to do.

[vast forum]

the point is, if you're bringing a rogue, it's almost strictly better for progress that you play assa

[tropic ocean]

i‘d say the same

[fleet anchor]

I really don’t see a basis for that statement other than it being what people have convinced themselves of. 😛

[tropic ocean]

No matter what dmg u lack, tents, psychus, boss

U can take care of it

[fleet anchor]

There is no shortage of either form of damage in other specs.

[vast forum]

outlaw's ST suffers a lot on n'zoth

[tropic ocean]

only thing I see outlaw being better is synapse/harvesters

[fleet whale]

this is probably the worst raid for rogues since Highmaul

[tropic ocean]

But they shouldnt be any problem

[vast forum]

a lot of downtime during paranoia/mindgrasp

[fleet anchor]

Here's what my argument would be

[vast forum]

while assa dots just keep ticking

[tropic ocean]

No matter the setup

[fleet anchor]

Outlaw advantages on cleave are far more extreme than their weaknesses in ST

Therefore if you need cleave, Outlaw has more clear of a role

If you already have cleave

[vast forum]

that's only true if it's sustained ST

[fleet anchor]

Assassination is a passable filler ST spec

[tropic ocean]

but where do you really need cleave

[fleet anchor]

But not really required because plenty of classes will do the same

[vast forum]

and the amount of damage assa can put out in the first 2 shattered ego phases is insane

[marble hemlock]

if you need cleave on nzoth, it means you dont have enough mages/warlocks. which also means, you dont have enough psychus dmg. which means you need to play assa.

[fleet anchor]

Well again, Assassination isn't doing anything BM Hunters can't already do

[tropic ocean]

but thats not the question

[fleet anchor]

Like seems odd to argue "you don't need cleave, because Mages"

[marble hemlock]

getting to play outlaw is a luxury, not ever gonna be a necessity

[tropic ocean]

Obv u should just use locks mages bms

[vast forum]

none of the hunters in my guild could come close to beating me on boss damage when i wasn't assigned to vendetta psychus tho

[fleet anchor]

But not argue "you don't need ST because Hunters/Warlocks"

I mean that is 100% anecdotal Yoppa

[tropic ocean]

but if you are a rogue the superior choice for nzoth is sin imo

[glacial crypt]

I don't think so

[fleet anchor]

The aggregate logs clearly show on average Hunter/Warlock beat Assassination on boss damage

[glacial crypt]

Im playing outlaw in our N'zoth prog just now and so far, we haven't had any prior target issues at all

[tropic ocean]

only need cleave for harvesters/synapse and if that is an issue raid is playing wrong anyway

[fervent beacon]

Yoppa, I don't really play sin because its brain dead spec so

[vast forum]

that's because rogues are far more likely to be assigned to vendetta psychus @fleet anchor

[fervent beacon]

[fleet anchor]

I mean honestly I think you guys are just making some false dichotomy

[vast forum]

imagine being a buttonmasher and calling assa a braindead spec

[fleet anchor]

Like assuming cleave is free and taken care of

And ST is in shortage

When that is 100% comp based

And could easily go either way

[glacial crypt]

^^

[fleet whale]

imagine thinking any rogue spec is hard right now

[glacial crypt]

Koji is right

[marble hemlock]

not really. its just the ever so present "outlaw can do it all" when 99/100 rogues during HoF progression that were brought at all play assa

so clearly there was a reason to play the spec over outlaw

[vast forum]

the amount of required cleave on n'zoth is free

[fleet whale]

all we need is foreverguy in this discussion of outlaw vs assassin on N'zoth

[vast forum]

if harvesters had more hp

you could argue for outlaw

[tropic ocean]

well it is and was the major problem for basically everyone i talked too

[fleet anchor]

I mean first of all, WF progression is not where we are at now

[marble hemlock]

outlaw is decent on nzoth, yes. but you wont ever bring a rogue and say "its cause hes outlaw"

[fleet anchor]

Boss damage was nerfed, boss DPS check is irrelevant even for scuffed comps

[marble hemlock]

you allow him to play outlaw because you already have enough dps

[glacial crypt]

No

[rigid mango]

Even if they're nerfed assa just kinda fits better does it not?

[vast forum]

well in my initial point, i said outlaw is ok for n'zoth but assa is better 🤷‍♂️

and as seli said

there's VERY good reason why 99% of hof guilds used assa and now outlaw

[tropic ocean]

is boss dps irrelevant tho? Cuz that was what we struggled with even after nerfs

[rigid mango]

Idk if ur comp can fix every damage check then assa just does more boss damage and if u need shit to be filled in like psychus assignments assa does that too

[fleet anchor]

I mean it's only 99% of guilds if you decide for some reason than CN/KR guilds don't exist at all

So that's a pretty disingenuous statement 😛

[fleet whale]

Assassination is always a decent spec for progress, almost regardless of the fight

[glacial crypt]

I've offered to go sin rogue if our orio damage is an issue at any point, but so far the psychophaages living too long has been an issue for us - so I play outlaw to deal with them more effectively

[tropic ocean]

well theres fights were outlaw is idd superior but in nzoth idk

[fleet anchor]

Lots of Rogues are in on comp because they are good players and happen to play Rogue

If a guild was truly comp min-maxing they would just bring another Hunter

That's just the unfortunate reality of Rogue right now in a general sense 😛

[vast forum]

i mean, limit had a rogue in their wf kill 🤷‍♂️

[tropic ocean]

but why would u make ur rogue go outlaw if you bring him nzoth i mean

[rigid mango]

ok but in a world where a comp is minmaxed

and the last slot is for a rogue alone

would u ever go outlaw

over assa

[glacial crypt]

For add damage

[tropic ocean]

Warrior dh mage lock hunter they all cleave

[drifting cloud]

if you were comp minmax youd only bring a dh and a warr from melee anyways

[fleet anchor]

I mean again Limit had a very good Rogue when EV was broken af so I mean.. sure, bring him I guess?

But that isn't now

[marble hemlock]

and EV was more broken for assa than outlaw?

[strange python]

[marble hemlock]

or why bring up EV at all

[glacial crypt]

Because ev was huge DPS in wf kill

[fleet anchor]

Because EV was far more broken for Assassination in relative terms yes

[vast forum]

pretty sure EV was more busted for outlaw 😄

[marble hemlock]

more so for assa than outlaw?

[fleet anchor]

It was not lol

[marble hemlock]

or why was he playing assa

[fleet whale]

it's always dicey to bring up what world first guilds bring to their first kills

[glacial crypt]

Assa is a solid prog spec

[tropic ocean]

min maxing is not an argument against assa 🤔

[fleet anchor]

Because Assassination could fill GCDs with Detection to get free damage

[fleet whale]

like Method had two sin rogues in their world first Arch kill back in WoD

[vast forum]

but outlaw has higher apm

so should get more stacks

[fleet whale]

yet maybe like 2 weeks later, a sin rogue was more rare than lightning striking twice

[fleet anchor]

Assassination could literally max out the potential stacks easily

[rigid mango]

P sure with detec spam EV was better for assa

since you literally

Don't have a dead GCD

[drifting cloud]

you know why they were assa varolyn, or are you just making a random example?

[rigid mango]

optimally

[drifting cloud]

its was for execute dmg

[vast forum]

what prevented outlaw from using detection if they ever ran out of energy @rigid mango ?

[fleet whale]

yes, assassin had great execute

[rigid mango]

True ig

[fleet anchor]

But again, why are we talking WF when class balance was in a very different place and before boss nerfs?

[drifting cloud]

archi was a 700 wipe boss because legendary ring nerfed that boss into oblivion

[fleet anchor]

We aren't giving recommendation to WF raiders atm 😛

[rigid mango]

Honestly never saw an outlaw use detec so forgot they could use it

[marble hemlock]

the reason is pretty simple. p2/p3 boss dmg, which amttered the most back then, is just something outlaw cannot bring

[tropic ocean]

its the same now?

And min maxing is no argument

[vast forum]

thing is

[fleet anchor]

Everyone's DPS is ridiculously higher than week one

[vast forum]

someone just made a statement that outlaw is "the way to go" for last 2 bosses

[tropic ocean]

Cuz dh/warr alt will solce cleave problem better than going outlaw

[vast forum]

i said it's wrong

[fleet anchor]

Psychus damage check is absolutely non-issue with any comp

[vast forum]

and now you're saying "this isn't world first"

[fleet anchor]

It's 100% execution of pathing and killing synapses quickly

[vast forum]

obviously it's not, but that doesn't mean outalw is the way to go

[fleet anchor]

Any random comp can kill Psychus

[glacial crypt]

I think that just now, outlaw is better for last two bosses

[vast forum]

any random comp can also kill n'zoth

[rigid mango]

Why is it

Though

[marble hemlock]

it most certainly is a matter of assigning cooldowns and having classes that can carry ST

[rigid mango]

I don't see why outlaw is better than assa

[tropic ocean]

yeah and not any random comp meets boss dps pushs

And sin excels at it

🤷🏿‍♂️

[vast forum]

but would you recommend sub rogues and ferals and MM hunters to someone asking for spec advice?

[marble hemlock]

like mage, warlock, assa

[rigid mango]

Unless your comp especially needs what outlaw does

vice versa for sin obv if ur comp needs an assa rogue u take that

[glacial crypt]

In terms off boss damage, no. But the adds do need to die, and outlaw excels in aoe situations

[drifting cloud]

dont bring feral down to sub and mm levels

thats rude

[fleet anchor]

Because Outlaw has sustained AoE control over Bashers/Corruptors/Harvesters and unless you have enough Mages to rotate Combust on literal everything, they are very useful

[rigid mango]

but even if every slot is filled for assignments

[vast forum]

bashers

[fleet anchor]

If you have 5 Mages then fuck it

[vast forum]

relevant dmg btw

[rigid mango]

Assa is jsut better right?

[fleet anchor]

Run any comp you want in the universe

Play Sub

Who cares

[vast forum]

as i said, we had 2 mages and the aoe was free

[rigid mango]

I mean we're not talking about what works

[vast forum]

anecdotal, sure

[rigid mango]

We're talking about what's best

[vast forum]

but free as fuck

[rigid mango]

Saying just play sub works for sure

but it's not the best

[glacial crypt]

Define best

[rigid mango]

The best of the 3 specs

What

[vast forum]

best for progress

[rigid mango]

???

[fleet anchor]

I mean if you have 2 Mages you send one down in both Mind Gate and Psychus is free too

[glacial crypt]

At?

[rigid mango]

At

killing

[marble hemlock]

not at all koji

[rigid mango]

the

boss

??????

[marble hemlock]

now? yes

[tropic ocean]

you said boss dmg is no issue after nerfs but for me it was the only issue left, cuz psychus was never an issue, even before nerfs, and harvesters wasnt either so the only thing we struggled at was meeting boss push

[marble hemlock]

during progression prenerf? you needed 2mages each, or 2warlocks

[fleet anchor]

We are in the now and talking to someone who asked about what his guild is doing this week. So...

[rigid mango]

I've said that if u need something specific from either spec you take that spec

[fleet anchor]

Why does progression prenerf matter?

[rigid mango]

Obv

[marble hemlock]

most guilds used 3 people in both mindgates for psychus

[tropic ocean]

we had superb comp, 2 destro lock 4 firemage, 2 dh, bm hunter and still choked boss dmg

[glacial crypt]

If boss damage is an issue - take sin

[marble hemlock]

because guilds progressing the boss now, run into the same issues as guilds prenerf did, because they perform 10% lower or more

[vast forum]

boss damage, even if somewhat trivial to guilds reclearing now, will still be a struggle for a lot of progress

[glacial crypt]

If add damage is an issue - take outlaw

[tropic ocean]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/8YMkXafwLZt1J7Pq#fight=20&type=damage-done&target=38

[vast forum]

the add damage is not an issue tho

[rigid mango]

^

[glacial crypt]

Then take sin

[tropic ocean]

2 days ago kill after all nerfs

[rigid mango]

How is ur add damage lacking

[tropic ocean]

super setup, still only issue boss dps

[fleet anchor]

I just don't really understand how you can say Outlaw has no reasonable value on the fight. It is 100% comp-related and dependent on where you need to put the damage. Someone has to kill everything in the fight.

[rigid mango]

Your comp can't even be that bad to make that happen just poor play at that point no?

It's not about outlaw no reasonable value

It's about

[marble hemlock]

doubt anyone said outlaw has no value on the fight

[glacial crypt]

I agree with Koji

[rigid mango]

being better than assa

No one said outlaw was bad

[fleet anchor]

My guild wouldn't have killed it either without me playing Outlaw, so that's just how it is.

[rigid mango]

People just said assa is better

[tropic ocean]

lol

[marble hemlock]

its the typical outlaw attitude of "but we can do this and that and thus outlaw is as good or better than assa"

[tropic ocean]

now thats anecdotal 😄

[vast forum]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/bJmr6wgAX9CNZpcq#fight=17&type=damage-done&target=71 0.1% wipe btw

night before hof closed

[marble hemlock]

the original argument wasnt "outlaw isnt valuable", it was "if you bring a rogue to nzoth, bring an outlaw"

[glacial crypt]

Oh my god

My heart

[fleet anchor]

lol I literally played both specs during prog. I have no dog in this fight. 😛

[tropic ocean]

theres no thing where outlaw will carry the fight literally in nzoth

[fleet anchor]

In terms of "typical Outlaw attitude"

[glacial crypt]

Same

[tropic ocean]

if outlaw would make the difference your raiders are trolling

[fleet anchor]

I played Assassination more bosses than Outlaw

[tropic ocean]

not dpsing synapse

or adds

[glacial crypt]

I played assa for most fights this tier

[fleet anchor]

But still made a decision that Outlaw was better for N'zoth for our guild

[glacial crypt]

But on last two bosses I played outlaw

[fleet anchor]

And I know plenty of guilds that had one Rogue go Outlaw for cleave

Both are viable

Play what your guild needs

That's all

[marble hemlock]

and thats perfectly fine. some guilds do struggle with what outlaw can do well on nzoth. most guilds however do not, they struggle with what assa does well.

so the statement "assa is more valuable on nzoth" is a simple fact of mathematics

[glacial crypt]

Most ?

[tropic ocean]

yes

[glacial crypt]

Where are you getting that?

[marble hemlock]

yes. most.

[drifting cloud]

@glacial crypt you dont even have a nzoth kill ?

[tropic ocean]

go to wcl and check the wipes

[glacial crypt]

I don't, I'm progressing it just now

[tropic ocean]

before nerfs, after nerfs

everyone choking to push boss

[marble hemlock]

from the fact that theres more kills with assarogues than outlaws, meaning those guilds decided that they would rather have an assa than an outlaw in their setup?

[fleet anchor]

I mean I just disagree Seli in terms of I think the math actually shows Outlaw is overall more valuable of a tradeoff in a generic sense. But again comp determins all.

[tropic ocean]

but how

[fleet anchor]

Like Outlaw averages 4k less boss damage and 14k more overall damage

[vast forum]

averages

because assa depends on where your CDs are assigned

[fleet anchor]

Someone has to provide that damage

It's not hard to see a lot of comps where you want the 14k

[vast forum]

if you could separate by parses that use vendetta on n'zoth, rather than psychus

[fleet anchor]

And can make up the 4k by shifting another assignment

[rigid mango]

But I mean the fight is strictly on timers right

so everything needs to die within X timespan

[strange python]

tbf both specs are shit compared to hunters who do both

[fleet anchor]

Unfortunately true. Hunters be busted. 😦

[rigid mango]

Isn't outlaw just doing that damage before X time has gone out in a lot of scenarios? Atleast I can imagine it

[drifting cloud]

nah its clearly all relevant dmg

[vast forum]

just kill the harvesters in 5 sec instead of 10

[rigid mango]

yeah idk

[tropic ocean]

how much of that 14k overall more is bf pad on psychus

?

[drifting cloud]

meanwhile im refreshing dots for coral stacks on boss

while everything around me is dieing from passive aoe

[rigid mango]

same

[fleet anchor]

There really isn't any padding on N'zoth, other than downstairs psychophages. Which is a very small percentage of overall

Everything has to die otherwise

[marble hemlock]

ofc it is

you just said

[tropic ocean]

and psychus?

[vast forum]

there is tons of padding on n'zoth

[tropic ocean]

yeah psychus has to die

[marble hemlock]

"1 mage is enough for psychus"

[tropic ocean]

but it dies without using cds

[marble hemlock]

ergo every non-assigned damage on psychus is pad

[rigid mango]

There's so much padding if u count in killing shit before it needs to die

The harvester doesn't need to die before 20 sec lets say

killing it in 10 sec

[tropic ocean]

like from pull 1 i used cd on boss instead of psychus cuz he takes 600k envenom just by stacks

[rigid mango]

doesn't help

[vast forum]

any harvester that dies before they START the 2nd cast has died too early and too much non-passive cleave was assigned to it

[rigid mango]

if anything it probably lowers cleave gains on boss dmg xd

[marble hemlock]

harvesters dont need to die before the second slam. killing them early is pad, because killing them early means less boss-dmg for hunters and warlocks

[rigid mango]

^

[vast forum]

that too

hunters gain ST from having 3 targets

[fleet anchor]

I never said it was pad

[rigid mango]

No, we did

[marble hemlock]

you said specifically there is no pad

[fleet anchor]

I said that the emphasis on having the available ST cooldown was not important

[vast forum]

just imagine zul where every1 kills the small adds "because relevant damage"

[marble hemlock]

?

[tropic ocean]

and for psychophages if anyone is struggling to kill them can personally think its due to tanking

with all classes cleaving like crazy

[fleet anchor]

Because Psychus damage check is easy

[marble hemlock]

http://puu.sh/FFcI9/c846e1b667.png

[fleet anchor]

And a lot of guilds just have to stop DPS on Psychus anyway

[glacial crypt]

This is a little heated xd

[marble hemlock]

no guild that is progressing on psychus

is gonna call for dps stop on psychus

[rigid mango]

It's not heated at all xd

[glacial crypt]

We do

[marble hemlock]

then assign less dps on it?

[glacial crypt]

We have to stop DPS for psychus

[fleet anchor]

Our group 2 was stopping DPS for 10s...

[tropic ocean]

then u should fix ur groups

[drifting cloud]

then you have bad dps assignments gratz

[fleet anchor]

To help with Combust alignment for P2

[glacial crypt]

It depends on the pull

[rigid mango]

[tropic ocean]

yeah thats not a class issue, but a raid leading issue

[fleet anchor]

The DPS check is so easy

[vast forum]

literally having mages combust and then hold dps for 10 sec is dumb af

[marble hemlock]

yeah

have less people downstairs

[tropic ocean]

yeah so send less dps ?

[marble hemlock]

more people upstairs?

[glacial crypt]

I don't think we have too many DPS

[fleet anchor]

We had no Mage downstairs

[rigid mango]

I mean

[fleet anchor]

Still easy

[rigid mango]

You literally do

[glacial crypt]

We've taken a few people out

[tropic ocean]

so?

[marble hemlock]

yeah

[tropic ocean]

send more dps up

[rigid mango]

if ur holding dps

[marble hemlock]

cause warlock does the same a mage does

[glacial crypt]

It's not every pull

[rigid mango]

Then u can just have more people upstairs

[tropic ocean]

dps stopping cuz having to much dps on psychus is literally the worst decision

[rigid mango]

like idk it's a simple fix too

[glacial crypt]

Like sometimes my folly will proc and do 8mil on psychus

At which point we'd call to stop DPS

[fleet anchor]

I mean sure. You could do that. You can trade damage around all you want. My point is that certainly very few groups need Vendetta on Psychus or whatever.

[tropic ocean]

yeah

but on boss

[drifting cloud]

you can easily see when psychus is on 50% or even higher if its gonna die too fast

[rigid mango]

And how many groups need harvester to die 10 sec early

[marble hemlock]

so your raidleader is capable of seeing whether your folly procced, or the mage had a weaponproc during combust, or the holypally had a visionproc, to live-track the current dps and time to kill on psychus? respect

[glacial crypt]

Uh

It's more so something that tank in psychus calls

To hold DPS

[tropic ocean]

its a bad call

fix groups

[marble hemlock]

yeah. youre not gonna push psychus too early cause your folly procced. you pushed it too early cause you have too much dps downstairs.

[glacial crypt]

We try to come out at a certain timing so

[fleet anchor]

Anyway, at no point did I say Outlaw is better to bring. I just don't believe in the blanket "assa is just better for progress" statement either. I think it's just more habit than with a firm basis.

[glacial crypt]

I mean you can check out logs

[marble hemlock]

cause every try you have good RNG, someone else has bad RNG

[tropic ocean]

yeah most guilds do at around 2.30ish due to cd lineup for boss dmg

[glacial crypt]

They're public

[tropic ocean]

cuz again, boss dmg is the biggest issue for most on progress

[fleet anchor]

If the other Rogue on our team wanted to play Assassination my answer would be "cool sounds good"

And if he wanted to play Outlaw it would be "cool sounds good"

😛

[fleet whale]

when is the last time outlaw was brought for an end boss in Mythic? Xavius maybe?

for like top kills

[tropic ocean]

how does it even matter

[vast forum]

once again

this entire discussion started

when i said "outlaw is ok, but it's not "the way to go""

no1 is saying that outlaw is bad on n'zoth

[glacial crypt]

People are they, that jumped in later

[rigid mango]

Quote it.

[glacial crypt]

Are though*

[fleet anchor]

I mean I think if you say outright "assa is just better for progress" you are basically saying Outlaw is the "wrong" choice. I just don't think that is nearly that clear cut.

[vast forum]

i mean

[tropic ocean]

and i majority of cases it is

for nzoth

[fleet whale]

it usually is

[tropic ocean]

and you basically said it yourself

[vast forum]

ele shamans and warlocks were better for progress on uu'nat than ret palas and ferals

[tropic ocean]

just with wrapped around words

[vast forum]

but that NA guild had them anyway as world #5 or smt

[tropic ocean]

psychus dps check is easy, harvester dps is easy

[marble hemlock]

the argument was started becuase yoppa correctly said that playing outlaw is arguably okay, and outlaws having their feefees hurts because they think their spec is much better than "arguably okay"

[tropic ocean]

boss dps is left

sin is better than outlaw on boss dmg

[glacial crypt]

I don't need to search for it and quote it. The way you've all been expressing your opinions on the matter made it seem like you were literally arguing the point of outlaw being bad on N'zoth

[vast forum]

are you inting your team by playing outlaw? no

are you optimal? also no

[fleet anchor]

Assassination will be played more because most Rogues played Assassination on every boss this tier and a lot of people are one-tricks. That's the real reason. Which people say as the reason that CN/KR guilds all run Outlaw. So it should be pretty obvious that preference plays more of a part than tuning. 😛

[vast forum]

no, we were just saying that assa is better

[marble hemlock]

koji made the correct statement in that it is obviously comp/raid dependant

[raven mica]

Well if you wanna be optimal you just don’t bring a rogue to nzoth at all

[tropic ocean]

and when you said that outlaw has way better overall yeah and when you check the logs of those outlaws they pad like motherfkers on harvesters and psychus

[rigid mango]

Like how much do u need to twist words

idk

I've said it like 3x now

That no one said outlaw was bad

just that assa is better

[marble hemlock]

not better

[rigid mango]

That's the entire basis of like the 4 of us who've responed

[vast forum]

strictly better

[marble hemlock]

but more useful for what most guilds will probably struggle with

[tropic ocean]

and bfing down harvesters fast is basically lowering your raids dps so meh

[fleet whale]

Just go Havoc DH, you'll have both the cleave and ST dps

[shrewd night]

Obviously if assassination is better, you are saying outlaw is worse, which means its bad

[marble hemlock]

there will be edge cases where psychopage damage is actually an issue (LUL)

[rigid mango]

Yeah, so in a progression mindset you'd say if you're helping what you're struggeling with more than another spec, that'd be better?

[vast forum]

psychophages

[fleet anchor]

Most Outlaw damage isn't on downstairs psychophages 😛

[marble hemlock]

but for most guilds, p1 tentacle damage and p2/p3 boss damage will be the non-movement related wipe-reasons

[fleet anchor]

It's like the tiniest part of my damage breakdown lol

[marble hemlock]

not killing bashers early enough, having leftover spikes etc.

[glacial crypt]

Yes

Unavailable

[tropic ocean]

yeha and ur highest is

[fleet anchor]

Because I don't want to fuck with being in range of them for no purpose

[tropic ocean]

nzoth-harvesters-psychus?

[glacial crypt]

I said earlier I'm willing to change to sin if we're struggling

[drifting cloud]

is dh even better than assa on nzoth

[tropic ocean]

yes

[drifting cloud]

next topic

[raven mica]

Yes

[glacial crypt]

There's a lot of people talking I'm getting overwhelmed sorry xd

[rigid mango]

Why do you think that was directed at you

[vast forum]

@glacial crypt you do you, but stating that outlaw is better because you in your guild are struggling with psychophages is just... wrong

[tropic ocean]

dh basically has similar boss dmg+cleave

+buffs all fotm firebolters

[drifting cloud]

dh has 8k less boss dmg

on logs

[marble hemlock]

dh does good synapse damage, has immunity, has solid sustained dps on tentacles and gets 2 metas in p2+p3. so yeah, DH is good on nzoth.

[fleet anchor]

Only time psychophages should be a problem on N'zoth is if you don't have a good CC/grouping strategy for topside group during psychus phase

[drifting cloud]

its all the way at the bottom actually

[marble hemlock]

DH can solo carry synapses for example

(same as hunter)

[fleet anchor]

That's almost all execution though

[glacial crypt]

I night have said that but afterwards Koji said it's conp dependant and I agreed with him

[vast forum]

it's only comp dependant

if the rest of your comp is garbage

[tropic ocean]

?

[drifting cloud]

it actually has same boss dmg as outlaw

[tropic ocean]

idk if im doing something wrong

[vast forum]

if you don't have a few mages, a few warlocks, and a few hunters, why are you even progressing ny'alotha?

[marble hemlock]

lets say it like this. youre never gonna kill nzoth because you had 2 solid outlaws in your guild. you will however maybe snag a kill that otherwise wouldnt have been, because your 2 assa rogues totally demolished nzoth in p2+p3.

thanks to being able to get 4 vendettas off

[vast forum]

just look at the log i posted a few min ago

and tell me if we had another rogue pumping instead of a SP, that wouldn't have been the kill

[marble hemlock]

woudlnt have been a kill if the rogue was outlaw.

[fleet anchor]

Well again honestly, Rogues are only there as a "bring the player" moment. Otherwise just bring more Hunters. So talking about optimal comps doesn't matter. Your own guild's comp is all that matters. Who is good, who is in.

[tropic ocean]

when I sort nzoth by boss dmg havoc has similar boss dps than assassination

[vast forum]

we literally lost hof to a 0.1% wipe on tuesday

[tropic ocean]

O_o

[vast forum]

because we didn't have full team and a shadowpriest had to be in

[marble hemlock]

not necessarily koji

we fixed our lack of psychus dmg when we had shitty comps by having a 3ss/3np assa rogue sit on psychus

[fleet anchor]

Like if your Rogues are pumping more than your Hunters it just means your Rogue is better or better geared than your Hunters 😛

[strange python]

@drifting cloud that was a good point waiting for a response rn

[fleet anchor]

DHs get special consideration because of debuffs

Lucky them

Thanks Monks for stealing ours 😛

[fleet whale]

DH's have the better one anyway

debuff that is

[tropic ocean]

even without debuff you'd rather bring dh than rogue for nzoth no?

[vast forum]

i mean, the 0.1% wipe would have been a 100% boss dmg parse for me 😛

if we killed it

[marble hemlock]

depends @tropic ocean

[vast forum]

but in general, i was pumping higher than our BMs

[marble hemlock]

DH can only immune 1 harvest, rogue can do 2

[tropic ocean]

yeah sure im just thinking

[fleet anchor]

pfft who even immunes now, you see the new strat this week? 😄

[tropic ocean]

like in my friends guild top 10 they made r1 logging rogues play dh

and priest

[marble hemlock]

assa on nzoth is there for tentacles and/or psychus, and boss-dmg. i fail to see what you specifically bring outlaws for.

[raven mica]

Wait hold up I wanna hear this new strat

[tropic ocean]

so im not sure you'd take rogue over dh anyway

[glacial crypt]

New strat?

[strange python]

we should get guy in here he is the face of outlaw after all to have some top tier discussion

[fleet anchor]

Basically skips all the P3 soaks and mechanics completely lol

[raven mica]

Has guy even pulled the boss yet

[glacial crypt]

Oh god

[marble hemlock]

guy doesnt have alpha access, he cant be good.

[tropic ocean]

what new strat?

bring 30 tanks dont get paranoia and twilight takes care of everything

[fleet anchor]

Basically group stack for Paranoias in P2, move a few necks over so you hard burn boss

[raven mica]

He can’t have gotten in that fast on club camel can he

[fleet anchor]

Go inside on the 2nd TH cast on P3

Just ignore everything in P3 and hard burn boss

[tropic ocean]

nice

[fleet anchor]

Drop 1 evoke to the side, yolo drop 2nd + go insane

[sudden brook]

no nzoth for me still

[drifting cloud]

its a farm strat

[tropic ocean]

thats a strat that is really good for sin

[glacial crypt]

A strat you'd need assa over outlaw for

xd

[tropic ocean]

😄

big

[fleet anchor]

Well you gain so much DPS from just hard burning in P2 ignoring paranoia

And not running around like tards in P3

[marble hemlock]

A strat you'd need assa over outlaw for
@glacial crypt wat

oh

nvm

misread

[glacial crypt]

Oh my god

My heart

[marble hemlock]

🙂

[glacial crypt]

Please

[raven mica]

To be fair seli

You also misspoke earlier

[marble hemlock]

read "never" instead of "need"

[raven mica]

And I was about to flip shit

[fleet anchor]

Started as a farm strat obviously but actually pretty sure a lot of upcoming prog kills will use it

It seems strictly easier in almost every way

DPS check is actually lower and less movement/wipe potential

Less soaking

Fewer anguishes

[drifting cloud]

depends how close the dps check is going insane that early

[fleet anchor]

The gains in P2 are big

[drifting cloud]

so we come back to boss dmg again

[glacial crypt]

Oh god please xd

[marble hemlock]

in any case

[vast forum]

so

old strat

[fleet anchor]

Imagine just being able to fucking stand there like idiots instead of fucking with paranoias. It would be glorious 😄

[vast forum]

assa better

new strat

assa better

see a pattern?

[drifting cloud]

lowest you can get him before chamber is 25 right?

[marble hemlock]

id still say that if you can play outlaw on nzoth, good for you. your guild can afford to have you sandbagging, because you provide nothing of value. atleast assa can claim to be 2nd best boss-dmg after BMs.

[glacial crypt]

I'm going to cry

[vast forum]

exsangery 😄

[raven mica]

I’m going to just reroll DK

[marble hemlock]

why?

[vast forum]

i love the emote

[marble hemlock]

you have a guild that can afford to let you play outlaw, because they have enough st, enough cleave, enough prio.

be happy.

[glacial crypt]

I WAS BEFORE THIS LOL

[raven mica]

Also at this point with corr res

[vast forum]

"afford" is a bit of an overstatement

[marble hemlock]

it is not.

[fleet anchor]

"afford to your you play Outlaw" "have enough cleave" wut

[raven mica]

Like your raid gets stronger every week

[vast forum]

they haven't killed the boss yet

[sudden brook]

which warlock spec is better on nzoth

?

[marble hemlock]

destro

obviously

lmao

[tropic ocean]

destruction

[sudden brook]

wait but demo does more st damage

[marble hemlock]

hi guy

[sudden brook]

isnt that what matters?

[drifting cloud]

please just go back to outlaw