Something that's throwing me off though, is that it's saying to use subterfuge despite not running any SS
#assassination
glacial crypt
glacial crypt
Hmm, okay. Thank you c:
glacial crypt
Okay so, hold up
New opener is weird without having SS
An 8 second rupture doesn't seem worth it, but a 1CP envenom just seems dog
Do I literally just Garrote > Garrote > Garrote ??
fathom swift
garrote mutilate rupture
glacial crypt
And refresh garrote at 1s from vanish?
glacial crypt
Ahh, it doesn't waste the empowerment since it'll have the extra time
I understand
quasi pewter
you can also look at the opener for your currently simmed build if you do a quick sim and look at the sample sequence below
vital haven
ive seen some rogues use garrote>mut>garrote>rupture
glacial crypt
^^
That's how I used to play the subterfuge build in EP, before swapping to MA during Zaqul prog
quasi pewter
this is the correct opener
sometimes you will have to mut twice ofc to get to 4+ cp
vital haven
skullguard
glacial crypt
Okay, so 1800 rating would allow me to be able to use the triple SS build, right? Or do theother traits not line up well enough in the headpiece?
quasi pewter
the inner traits arent very good unfortunately
glacial crypt
We're not reclearing Mythic until we down nzoth, unfortunately
quasi pewter
i would not recommend the ss build on nzoth anyway unless you need big psychus damage
bote with vop minor is very good
preferably with 3np but not a big deal
fleet whale
so i was just messing around with a max apm assassination build on raidbots that sims horribly... but i was able to get a 55 apm sim!
vast forum
you can have 60+ apm if you spam detection while pooling 
glad torrent
so method site recommends taking internal bleeding talent if you dont have shrouded suffocation. can someone explain when to fit that into rotation?
just kidney on cooldown?
or does the bleed only happen on enemies that can get stunned
glad torrent
gotcha. another question: why am i simming 53k dps and doing 33k lol? i feel like i got the rotation down. 33k was on Skitra
drifting cloud
skitra logs arent correct because of some phasing mechanics
unless you were logging yourself
glad torrent
30k on wrathion
and yes i was logging myself
at the starts of fights im getting like 45k dps then it just falls off to 30k sustained. trying to analyze my rotation but im pretty sure im doing it right
shrewd night
Link us the logs, that kind of difference is not what I expect from someone doing it right, no offense.
shrewd night
If thats your dude, I can see if someone did log, brb
oof
Uuuh
You have your higher ilevel dagger in your offhand for some reason
Your azerite is doo-doo
glad torrent
hahaha
shrewd night
Youre using the wrong pots
glad torrent
lol really?
shrewd night
Not sure why you are using breath as a major, but it might just sim higher for you for some reason
From this one log you are never using vanish
It took you 18 seconds to use vendetta in your opener
Its like
glad torrent
gotcha. thanks for looking at this for me
obviously im completely deluded that i thought my rotation was good. maybe too much for you to comment on rn, i should just go study guides more
shrewd night
That would be a start 😄
For future reference as well, when we refer to logs, you can upload your own: https://www.wowhead.com/how-to-use-warcraft-logs-to-improve-character-performance#getting-started-with-warcraftlogs
glad torrent
cool thank u
arctic walrus
sim your gear in top gear
Do a quick sim, set it to target dummy instead of patchwerk
go to a target dummy and that is dps you will more realistically match
dont try to compare what you sim as with patchwerk to what you do on certain bosses
arctic walrus
yeah
glad torrent
so guides are telling me to run blood of the enemy major- mine's rank 2. should i run crucible of flame instead if its max rank
fathom swift
you can sim to find out
glad torrent
i will but breath of the dying was giving me higher dps than blood of the enemy and apparently breath is wrong
in sim
arctic walrus
why
glad torrent
lol idk. my breath and blood are both rank 2
vital haven
breath and blood are pretty comparable as major sim wise pladdy
glad torrent
gotcha
steep obsidian
the sims arent wrong
¯_(ツ)_/¯
not many people run breath cept on drestagath taht doesnt mean its necessarily bad
vital haven
well also because its busted as a minor
same reason why no one runs lucid dreams as a major
fathom swift
you know if you pick an essence as a major you also get the minor too right
fathom swift
i mean "it's a good minor" is not a reason to not run an essence as a major, if anything it's a good reason cause most of the usual major essences have mediocre minors
glad torrent
switching my higher ilvl dagger to main hand lowered my weapon dps slightly? i even re-enhcanted to make the mainhand have quick nav and offhand to have masterful nav
vital haven
ok my bad
rough day
im sorry for that remark
but no i mean there is a reason why you use clf and blood as major
and stuff like breath/lucid as minors
fathom swift
its fine i dont take offense i just legit wasnt sure what you meant
yeah its just like part of the value of taking breath major is that you get to take an extra minor like iris/focused energy when otherwise you would get something like bote minor
its prob still not better in most cases where you cant snipe resets like drest but its something worth thinking about
vital haven
ye sure
glad torrent
and yeah i simmed 46k with breath, 43k with crucible, 41k with blood all on training dummy
fathom swift
what did you mean by higher ilvl wep in mh lowered your dps btw
glad torrent
so earlier when shiennar was helping me, he said i had my higher ilvl dagger in my offhand which was bad. so i swapped them and got lower weapon dps
fathom swift
weapon dps?
rancid bobcat
Post it
glad torrent
kk one sec
fathom swift
are you running stat weights
cause thats not what you should be basing your gear on
shy dust
Are both weapons enchanted
glad torrent
yes i was doing the stat weights mode- and yes both are enchanted
generating results one sec
subtle tundra
dont sim using stat weights 
fathom swift
dont worry about the wep dps in stat weights just look at the amount of damage it does
like the sim dps
subtle tundra
sim your gear using top gear
you can choose what stuff to sim
and makes everything easier
fathom swift
idk why they're telling people to sim stat weights you shouldn't need to basically ever
rancid bobcat
Weights are fine tbh it's just most people don't know how to use them anymore
fathom swift
I can't even think of situations where you'd need to use them where you couldn't just sim comparisons instead
rancid bobcat
With full socketed gear you quickly overload on combos
fathom swift
if you're simming 2 gems instead of 4 you should be fine if you have 15 mill iterations or whatever the cap is now
rancid bobcat
And simming just sockets is also a waste since it'll push the smart sim iterations up due to very small differences
Then there's also enchants on rings and weapons
fathom swift
yeah you can do rings after based on gem sims and weps arent gonna often change
rancid bobcat
Just saying you can wait 30 min for a 15 mil top gear sim or 2 min for a stat weight
shy dust
30 mins to do more damage
fathom swift
im ok waiting for 30 min for a more accurate sim
shy dust
rancid bobcat
I mean
fathom swift
like simming what happens if you add 238 to each stat and using that to determine which stat to add 50 to isn't gonna be accurate
rancid bobcat
You can use weights to get within margin of error of whatever top gear spits out
If you just take the time to think about the weights
fathom swift
i trust sims more than my thinking ability when it comes to stuff like gems
like if you just looted a socketed upgrade midraid and want to slam a gem in before the next boss even then you can just do a topgear with 4 gem combos and boom thats more accurate than stat weights
rancid bobcat
I have the highest tier premium and don't like using gem sims
arctic walrus
Little hypocritical rae 
rancid bobcat
Also yeah sim for 30 min between bosses 
shy dust
Broke life Vel shush
fathom swift
no I mean like dont replace any gems just sim literally 4 combinations, thats like 40k iterations
takes 20s
faster than simming stat weights
rancid bobcat
But then you don't know what else needs to change
While if you came into the night already knowing your weights in your current gear, you could factor in the changes in the base stats and know what gem to put in already
fathom swift
how would you know what else needs to change by running stat weights?
fathom swift
what goes down and what goes up is not about what your current gear is, it's about what your current gear + 238 of a stat is
rancid bobcat
Assassination stats are robust enough that without big changes like corruption, you can use them pretty reliably
fathom swift
if you're drawing conclusions about what an extra 3.5% haste out of nowhere does for your dps then you're probably going to be way more wrong than just simming what 50 stats to add to your current gear
idk mine definitely arent
fathom swift
sure
rancid bobcat
I mean without stars and without heavily stacking stat corruptions, unless your highest ilvl gear is very skewed to one stat, most stats should be fairly even
If you have stars you stack haste and if you have a bunch of 1 stat corruptions you stack that stat
fathom swift
so say I see that and get a socketed vita, and go "oh ok so crit is my top dps per point so I should socket it with crit"
fathom swift
i know its within margin of error either way
rancid bobcat
Weights also have margin of error
vestal wren
stat wights have limited use
i would advice against using them, its better to use top gear
rancid bobcat
Hands up don't shoot
vestal wren
if you got your setup quite finished and you rly want to know what scales good you can do a plot
this is the magic that you need for it:dps_plot_positive=1 dps_plot_stat=haste,crit_rating,mastery,versatility
nimble mesa
Hey guys, starting to progress on N'zoth MM. I was thinking breath major could be good since there is so much target switching all the time in P1. But maybe in 80 tries the difficulty will be completely somewhere else and breath becomes fairly obsolete. What would be your advise? (I wanna focus more on progression than parsing/padding, so use what's best for the raid)
arctic walrus
Just go with blood unless you’re really struggling in your psychus group with synapses, which might seem like an issue but gets fixed with just more comfortability
crimson palm
clf is the way, 1.2 mil dps for 10 secs on psychus
umbral scaffold
Can anyone recommend a good corruption build for assa without IS?
quasi pewter
whatever sims best?
pretty much all the stat corruptions are good
especially expedient
gushing wound ofc
and TA
umbral scaffold
I really dislike IS and DD playstyle in general - my best set sims 86,6k, but i can only get my Exsan build to sim about 82k without IS 😦
quasi pewter
IS is always gonna sim alot higher than ur "regular" setup
4k difference is not that big
umbral scaffold
True, i just need more stat corruptions
That 82k build is based on 1x rank 2 TA, 1x rank 3 Honed, 1x rank 2 Expedient and 1x rank 3 Masterful
swift gull
hey guys, recently got 2x expedient r2, simmed a 460 & 475 boe with another r2, does +1500 dps for 460 & +1900 for 475 means "a lot" or that isnt worth investing golds ?
fathom swift
its a decent amount of dps, up to you whether its worth spending gold
raven locust
If the BoE is priced at a reasonable amount I think it's worth it. If you're still in prog then definitely
is it the boe boots or ring?
swift gull
boots
~300k for 460 and 475 is at 450k, going to prog on raden starting tonight and golds arent much an issue. as ring i have the mecha ones with haste proc and 3 diff spells on target
scarlet sequoia
wtf that is insanely cheap
buy those, definitely
usually expedient boots go for 1+ mil
swift gull
yeah the r3 expedient is at 980k ^^, 450k is only a r2 at 475 ilvl
scarlet sequoia
ye thats still a really really good price
raven locust
snatch that up if it doesnt break the bank
strange python
If some1 knows his shit about expedienrs its raz he has like 5 pieces or some shit
proven smelt
when do you want to use Crimsson Tempest in m+ rather than Poison Bomb?
or maybe you don't want to use that?
steep obsidian
i think with 3 eb its not even a button worth pressing
next arch
If im stacking twisted appendage, do i hold off on using blood of the enemy until it procs.
scarlet sequoia
n
obtuse cedar
!wa
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination WA's for BFA:
https://wago.io/HJUbINlV7 (Mizerok's Group)
https://wago.io/E1EB91OtM (Lokkek's Group)
https://wago.io/SyLUNGD4X (Sovv's Group)
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)
near magnet
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/ojvcpwgrdANUGNGwiQPHsa hello there guys! Iam having some trouble to be close to that 64k dps. In raiding iam about 57k-58k and it rly pisses me off. Is it due to the rng procs of twillight dev or not? I think my rotation is rly on point , hitting always 3-4 envenoms with 4-5 CB during toxic blade and I keep up my bleeds , dont know wtf am i doing wrong.. :/ Also my Envenoms feel rly weak
vast forum
if you want performance analysis, post logs
vast forum
otherwise, i recommend swaping out conflict and strife for iris minor, and try simming hod on your shoulder
near magnet
sim says its a dps loss
faint harness
ye thats very strange
near magnet
I just wanted to do the sim without the buffs
the problem is that I do like 55 to 58k with buffs
My opener is huge
like 200k dps
but after like 2-3 minutes iam at 50+ k dps
faint harness
this is on xanesh
are you kicking the ball during that time?
almost a minute of downtime
no wonder your dps drops (?)
near magnet
i think it was a tanks bad positioning on the boss and I had to stay far away during torment
near magnet
hmmm
faint harness
like theres no excuse to spending a full minute staring at the boss
you have tools to play around the mechanics
night vale
he was playing football at that time it looks like
near magnet
it was football yes
faint harness
regardless, football doesnt take a minute
gotta be more greedy, thats just a blatant takeaway
near magnet
Thanks for the info guys:) Its raid day today going to test me
faint harness
is ur galecallers outsimming coral btw?
near magnet
oh
faint harness
GL HF
hollow bridge
for heroic parses are all purple logs good enough to start mythic first 3 bosses? Let me know if u want me to link
faint harness
yes
faint harness
yes but if your potential dps is about purple heroic you can kill the first 3 easily
while someone at green/grey heroic might struggle to provide enough dps
vast forum
ofc, if you have 2 ppl doing mechanics just as well, you choose the one with higher dps
but purpleparsing in hc and not knowing mythic mechanics doesn't help 😄
faint harness
I dont think that was the question tho
vast forum
true i guess
faint harness
You're assuming he meant he could just herpderp into mythic and kill them EZ clap
I thought he meant if its doable at all.
vast forum
i just don't think dps is relevant on first 3 bosses at all
faint harness
Which it obviously is
vast forum
assuming you don't enrage wrathion
hollow bridge
All that has been said has been helpful. Learn mythic mechanics and then improve on the Dps thanks
cobalt pelican
wrathion is really fucking rough in super bad guilds
cause it takes like 8 minutes still
vast forum
yes but
cobalt pelican
and you get like 50 stacks
faint harness
maut is also rough in bad guilds
vast forum
you don't get to 50 stacks if you play correctly 😄
faint harness
HEROIC is rough in bad guilds
vast forum
doing 40k dps on wrathion while controlling your stacks is probably better for progress than doing 80k and dying within 2 minutes 😄
faint harness
Not really
or well
take away the dying part
But doing 40k dps wont kill it
Theres a limit to how bad your dps can be, raidwide, even on the first bosses
hollow bridge
I'm on the higher end of the Dps in our heroic guild. We haven't cleared ilgynoth yet...or at least I haven't in the guild...
Usually given a fight I push upwards of 60k dps. Depends on the fight of course. Sometimes my corruption really boost the dps and sometimes it's just okay
fleet anchor
I would say as a general rule though that if you have to play football on Xanesh you aren’t gonna parse. Getting 58k while kicking if you have 64k sims doesn’t seem out of line of what I would expect.
faint harness
he excluded eveyr single buff in the game from the sim
including bloodlust
probably simming closer to 80k
fleet anchor
I don’t think buffs would add quite that much but still. Hard to really judge anything if you are playing football.
fleet anchor
You still have the debuff so it is what it is. If people do it wrong you aren’t doing any damage. 😛
I usually drop to like 67k just from being in a kicking group on our Heroic clears.
fleet anchor
Instead of 89k or whatever I had the last run.
faint harness
another 26 or something seconds from doing nothing
fleet anchor
Even sitting on the boss waiting. So it basically sucks. 😄
faint harness
i agree that doing football is gonna lower your dps, but theres no excuse to stand there and do nothing for 20 extra seconds
fleet anchor
Other melee in the raid have the same gap so I presume it’s something with how it was positioned.
faint harness
or they are all playing it suboptimal by orders from RL to stand still during torment
fleet anchor
Either way, I’d just mostly throw away damage numbers on that fight in particular if you have to go down because it skews pretty bad.
faint harness
which isnt too farfected in a heroic raiding guild
fleet anchor
Dumb mechanic. 😦
faint harness
I think you can solve all of that by playing more greedy, ur a rogue you can take some hits
standing in a beam wont kill you and even if it does you have cheat death
faint harness
i play 59 on all but ilgynoth
and did on prog too, i swapped to 39 on drestagath for the first kill
vast forum
i recommend <40 for last 3-4 bosses
maybe 40-59 is fine on carapace but definitely not recommended on n'zoth
strange python
dark niche
and what about m+?
fleet anchor
39 is pretty typical for Assassination in many groups both raid and otherwise because of the lack of tools for dealing with it. TfB damage does add up quite a bit over time but will depend on your healers.
Also depends on if you have much to gain from it.
Since corruption breakpoints and gains are all over the place.
Depending on what gear you have.
crimson palm
59 seems fine on all but ilgy and nzoth
you can take elusiveness and just soak every tftb
faint harness
why do you think nzoth is extra scary
crimson palm
you still have the dot ticking
faint harness
and get like 3 in a row while stunned
fleet anchor
You talking about Mythic or Heroic?
faint harness
mythic
fleet anchor
I really don’t think I’d run 59 on Mythic unless it was a farm rekill.
Just asking to die during Anguish randomly imo.
faint harness
and it never happened
and ive ran 59 since then
all reclears
never died to the thing
fleet anchor
I mean it’s RNG. That doesn’t mean if everyone does it it won’t happen. Happened to one of our DHs the other day who is usually invincible because of Leech.
faint harness
I think a lot of ppl are overestimating the dmg it does
and scared of running more
the slow is more of a killer, and thats there on every corruption level
fleet anchor
TfB during Anguish will definitely kill. If you don’t have cloak up for it you’re done.
Cloak as in dispel cloak
fleet anchor
I mean people during prog are still gonna drop to like 20%
faint harness
HP during prog kill, never in danger
fleet anchor
I dunno. Just doesn’t seem needed especially with the HP nerfs anyway.
cobalt pelican
he raids with a cheating mw
fleet anchor
Except those 4 times you were?
cobalt pelican
so take that into account
fleet anchor
😄
cobalt pelican
but tbh after the evoke damage change i never felt in danger either really
fleet anchor
Do tfb not spawn in the heart chamber either? 😉
rigid mango
I could run 59 because I'm unassigned soaking wise but always a backup
but I don't really feel the reason to
faint harness
@cobalt pelican tbf his healing wasnt that impactful on the first kill
fleet anchor
The problem with applying personal experiences to this is that you have to think about the logical extrapolation
crimson palm
What's your raid HPS like?
fleet anchor
If everyone in the raid was running tfb.
fleet anchor
Someone would die to it every pull on prog.
faint harness
i think rogue is safer than most other specs tho
crimson palm
that MW lel
fleet anchor
I mean Outlaw maybe but I don’t see how Assassination is.
faint harness
@crimson palm thats nothing x) this is 2nd kill
rigid mango
idk I never felt like my extra 1k dps was relevant enough or w/e I gain from the extra corr
fleet anchor
If my prog raid is gonna absorb some tfb risk it’s mostly gonna be Hunters, DHs, Outlaw, etc. that basically ignore it.
rigid mango
But again I feel like if you're comfortable with it, go for it
fleet anchor
Assassination mostly just has to eat it
crimson palm
With a MW like that you can prolly run 79 and be fine lmao
rigid mango
Personal choice and if you're not dying to it like push then it works ig
crimson palm
Since the other healers can just focus on you 😄
faint harness
he rerolled
got too much hate from the MW discord
so he plays a resto sham now
even played leech on kill cus cheat death was overkill. yea 39-59 wont make or break your dps
fleet anchor
I mean we generally had to rule of “if you die to it you have to stop running it” and lo and behold, by the end of prog nobody was running it other than DHs/Hunters 😉
faint harness
mages, hunters, DHs ran it for us quite sure
fleet anchor
Probably
crimson palm
cloak
fleet anchor
On early bosses I think they did but honestly blink is too useful to burn on later fights
vast forum
the thing about n'zoth
fleet anchor
Just for a 1% damage increase
fleet anchor
Il’gynoth, Carapace, N’zoth you don’t have a lot of freedom of movement to kite and shit
vast forum
very unlikely to die to it on cara tho
fleet anchor
Early Carapace is fine but P2 is pretty constrained
You get tfb during mind Bomb and it’s kinda rip
faint harness
i went into every fight with 39 at start
checked dmg taken
and equipped more
the only fight i would never run 59 on is ilgynoth cus the chain reaction can just wipe ur entire guild for being greedy
fleet anchor
I ran 50s as Outlaw on Carapace and if not for Vanish I’m pretty sure it would have got me at least once or twice
In terms of causing a death
faint harness
i should thank my healers then, always felt very safe
fleet anchor
Obviously I run a lot in Heroic runs because nothing there is dangerous. Or farm or whatever. But I think the marginal benefit is low for a lot of people.
There were times when it was only like 0.7-1.2%
To go from 39 into the 50s
faint harness
we killed nzoth with like 2 second margin first time, who knows, if i played 39 we might have not killed it.
fleet anchor
And that actually gets more dramatic the more resist we get since the relative gains are smaller to our total budget
Unless you are at some hard spot of fitting a specific trait item in
marble hemlock
corruption in raid is also a bit about the general attitude @faint harness
you played above 50, and its gonna make you take more damage. that might be fine for you, but consider everyone in the raid doing it
if everyone suddenly takes more damage from eyes, or even grand delusions, the healers will be more stressed and theyll have less chances to do dmg themselves
choices in raids like this arent just about the individual, but whether your raid can handle if everyone decides to do what you do, keep that in mind
faint harness
had 3 healers that did healing by doing dmg
and a resto druid
either way, yea i tested it and checked if it was possible
i didnt hardlock myself to 39 cus its the "go-to" limit
And i wouldnt ever have done it if it was griefing the raid
fleet anchor
Well we are only giving generalized advice here. So I tend to err on the conservative side. If someone in my raid was coming in fresh and asked, I would tell them 39. Because probably if they are asking it should be 39. 🙂
faint harness
Sure, but I think it's a good idea to keep an open mind
fleet anchor
But I do think it is just a reality that Rogues don’t deal with it all that well. Like I can sit there with my shit geared BM Hunter and still run 59 on day one for everything and never get hit by it ever. lol
Which is totally hax btw
faint harness
I don't think our tools are that bad either
Cheat death is an excellent counter to the thing from beyond, on most fights its not even procd, but it becomes utility when you include smallbois.
and the chance of you getting SUPER unlucky and spawning 2 at the same time or 1 during a very bad time is quite low.
So the 1 cheat death should be enough in most cases.
And yes, there's a lot of things to consider before going head to head with the lads. Not just slap it on, have a go.
fleet anchor
lol for some reason when I read that it makes me think about when Ion said Ankh was a defensive for Shaman 🤣
faint harness
It's a bit different i'd say since ours is reset on wipe and doesnt have 30 min cd 😛
fleet anchor
I do get what you mean although I'd rather use my Cheat Death on a fuck up than a TfB, but of course if you are really pushing I get the logic
faint harness
Ion also runs avoidance corruption so his time as an elitist jerk has surely surpassed
fleet anchor
You know they really missed their window to make the Leech/Avoidance things relevant
They should have just made them really cheap
like 3-4 corruption
So you could fill gaps with them
faint harness
the leech budget is just insane
fleet anchor
Like I sit here on weeks where I'm at 35 (if aiming for 39)
If I could throw in Leech for 4
Sure, why not
faint harness
true
fleet anchor
Lots of times we get in those spots because of the multiples
faint harness
They were probably going for something similar, but as he also said, they missed the tuning quite hard
I sit at 50 now, really awkward spot. Can't really get more, and theres no point to get less (atm).
I could remove GW on feet for like 2k dps or something
rigid mango
Got the first piece that would actually get me over 39 but not over 59 this week, and I've been looking for it for like, a month.
Only a bunch of t3 procs and shit
rigid mango
yeh got t2 RP that could bring me up there which is dope
But I only kill 2 bosses each week so 
rigid mango
I'm only in for daggers
faint harness
ah
rigid mango
Don't need anything else
But I also got the dagger this week, so now I only need the chest
I don't need a 2nd dagger
faint harness
uhh
faint harness
same
faint harness
so expensive or what
rigid mango
Anyone say crit?
carmine cave
So I am here getting a 460 azerite for PvP and don´t know shit about what item I should get
rigid mango
1 was from last guild other I bought myself
carmine cave
everyone says something different
rigid mango
Mythic feet + hc ring
faint harness
imagine getting loot from guild
rigid mango
They priod me for loot bec I was consistantly there and like turbo grinder
We had a huge boe pot bec we boosted a shit ton at the start of the tier
Got some good stuff for a bunch of diff people
faint harness
Its nice to be able to hand out boes
we rarely boost as a guild so gbank is at like 4 mil consistently
rigid mango
But I think uhh
Atleast half of the boes went to people that left the guild/quit the game
So that was, uhhh, funny?
marble hemlock
I wouldnt even play cheat death on pmuch any encounter in Nyalotha :x
Leeching is pretty solid this tier, and Elusiveness makes a big difference on quite a few fights as well
In particular nzoth
rigid mango
I can't even think of a fight where I've felt like CD really helped
marble hemlock
because it doesnt, not this tier
every fight is sustained damage over time
only fight id say cheat is valuable is ilgynoth
and even there, leeching might be outvalueing it
crimson palm
it doesnt feel right not to have it tho
that feeling that you're covered if you fuck up
is valuable 😄
fleet anchor
Hmm I think Elusiveness is better than Leeching just because it's nice to actually have a personal
marble hemlock
feels good to run a talents thats actually useful most of the fight
and not one that doesnt do anything for 30pulls in a row
fleet anchor
10% Leech is not that much imo
marble hemlock
theres not that many fights where you actually need the 30% from feint though, most bigger abilities are feintable this tier (nzoth being the notable exception)
whether its void collapse on raden, circles on ilgy, infinite darkness on cara etc.
rigid mango
Idk I feel like CD is my go to for the first maybe 10-15 pulls of a fight
If even that
And that I should swap off it as soon as you're comfortable with the rhythm of the fight
But I'm too lazy
marble hemlock
usually as a rogue you die at a point where CD is kinda pointless to have
if youre the first one to die, you fucked up bigtime
rigid mango
Normally yeah
rigid mango
Yeah but the thing for me about CD in m+ is
marble hemlock
stop being bad zine
rigid mango
If you fuck up and CD saves you and saves the pull
that might be the key
yeah I'm not 4k ok
Bite me man
marble hemlock
theres a few dungeons where i feel CD is the best choice
like temple, junkyard, highkey freeholds where eudora oneshots through elusiveness
fleet anchor
I just mostly feel like Leeching Poison is really underbudget for the effect
rigid mango
idk I only play elusiveness 10/10 times in KR
marble hemlock
then id run elusiveness in KR and freehold for eudora (unless you have a warrior tank)
and leeching in the rest
fleet anchor
Like 1 Leech tertiary roll on a random item is like.. 3.5% or something
fleet anchor
Having a talent for 10% seems kinda meh
rigid mango
Imagine if that dagger you gave me had leech instead of fucking indestructible seli
Just thought I'd remind of you that dagger you gave me
Thanks btw
strange python
What, indestructible is BiS. Think of the Gold u save
rigid mango
What daggers* now
marble hemlock
and koji, while i agree, id also make the point of baseline leech in combination with leeching
10% by itself isnt that great
but running 1 or 2 leech items and sitting at like 5%
rigid mango
I'm only floorpov in raids when I step on nzoth 👀
marble hemlock
and then going up to 15%
puts you at the level where you literally dont need heal on an aoe pull
because youre gonna leech back up
fleet anchor
I think if you are doing AoE damage yeah
fleet anchor
Sure, yeah could 100% see that especially in a M+ setting
I do think Cheat Death has some value in some surprising ways at times but largely goes unused
So it's a strange one like that
marble hemlock
its definitely best if youre just starting out and not comfortable with the situation you find yourself in yet
fleet anchor
Like best case, you don't need it and it does absolutely nothing? But when it does do something useful, it's usually really useful.
marble hemlock
but i see CD as a crutch, and you better learn how to walk without having it
rigid mango
idk for me atleast I feel like cheat would save a key more often where leach/elus wouldn't
But that's because I stand in shit like a genius
fleet anchor
So Cheat Death is very extreme in the value range. It's either 100 or 0 lol
rigid mango
Exactly
fleet anchor
But usually 0 if you are playing well
rigid mango
I just feel like when I'm doing pug keys which I only do really
fleet anchor
It's an interesting question
rigid mango
And people aren't as perfectly insync as in higher keys
Having random tank mechanics hit me and me proc cheat and not die that pull
fleet anchor
I think that talent tier would be a very tough decision in general if Leeching Poison was like 15% or something
marble hemlock
just as an example (although waycrest is one of the best leeching dungeons in general)
but 5mil healing extra is nothing to scoff at
fleet anchor
Leech in that kind of situation is definitely something you could plan around and build a healing strategy around, whereas Cheat Death is more of a backup brez so they just do different things. Which is fine. Elusiveness is really the only one I feel strange about
Because I really don't like the way baseline Feint is that much atm
marble hemlock
yeah
leeching is nice when your healer knows you have it
and wont spend CDs on healing you on a mob where youre not gonna take damage again for 15+sec
i.e. tankbuster, you tank the aoe slam, and by the time the next one comes, youre full from DPSing anyway
no need to heal you
elusiveness only has value, atleast for m+, when you can use it consistently or desperately need it to survive
i.e. highkey kingsrests, atals and potentially freehold cause eudora is an asshole
having to play low-ilvl azerite and running virtually no versatility sadly means we might get oneshot without using feint/elusiveness regularly on some of these fights
bleak spoke
whenever i have elu over cheat i always feel so fundamentally unsafe
marble hemlock
yeah
its like not carrying a condom but trusting in your pullout game, eventually youll get there and feel safe
but if youre just starting out, id go with cheatdeath over elu/leeching for sure
fleet anchor
lol
rigid mango
Yeah I'm just starting out so I'll stick with CD
sudden canyon
are these leech numbers with x3 eb?
warm parcel
RE: one simple reason leech is expensive
Healers
5% leech on a healer is worth unimaginable amounts
While dps can do maybe 60k dps, a healer is doing 150k hps at the same time
And something like rdruid can ignore themselves
marble hemlock
yeah @sudden canyon
i love leeching in tol dagor on bursting
everyones dying, you shoot the cannon one more time, heal back to full with leeching+vamp speed
sour glade
If you're doing high keys you should almost always be running cheat death. If high tyr Kragg or Eudora pick you two times in a row to shoot and you don't have evasion chances are your cheat death goes off. The value of elusiveness is so situational that having the safety of cheat death is nearly always the best choice.
I do run elusiveness in high KR simply because none of the trash in there can kill me if I don't screw up and elusiveness has very high value on all 4 bosses though.
I can't imagine every running leeching when crimson vial, feint, and cloak of shadows just handle any issues for you.
turbid zealot
!wa
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination WA's for BFA:
https://wago.io/HJUbINlV7 (Mizerok's Group)
https://wago.io/E1EB91OtM (Lokkek's Group)
https://wago.io/SyLUNGD4X (Sovv's Group)
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)
rancid bobcat
you can just always los kragg when you dont have feint up
eudora doesnt kill you 2 shots in a row unless youre doing something like 23 tyrannical and your healer isnt great
strange python
What do u guys think of vita heroic and mythic if the heroic one has a socket and mythic version doesnt? Its still worth it to run the mythic one for the increased raiddps isnt it? Otherwise ill put a socket on it
Its a 200 personal dps loss currently
rancid bobcat
run visions to put a socket on it
dark niche
why does breath of the dying major sim higher than blood of the enemy by 600 ish dmg
tropic ocean
because it is a strong essence
dark niche
i figured blood would always sim highre since everyone uses it
tropic ocean
blood is often not used because its the best simming essence
but because it lines up good with vendetta vanish
strange python
Vop major is the gang
fleet whale
Breath of the dying is extremely strong but it's still a relatively new essence and BoTE is very easy to play with
plus i know people hate this term but BoTE is more feelcrafty, it feels really good to get those huge vendetta openers while breath can be a bit awkward to play
fleet anchor
That and people don't tend to re-sim their essences too frequently
And probably haven't really checked their own gut feelings about it since they were AP 75
And Breath at AP 85-90 is way stronger than it was a couple months ago
bleak spoke
^other way to look at it is generally better to play what you know well than what you don't know poorly
breath can be pretty hard
depending on the fight
fleet anchor
Yeah although for Assassination even like naive usage is quite strong
bleak spoke
yeh
fleet anchor
Like you'll get a solid 5% from it just from using it on CD on ST
Which is still basically the same as what Blood gives on ST
pale saffron
Stupid essence question, do big dots like vanish garrote snapshot with bote?
bleak spoke
hard to see a world where i use it on a fight where it feels like something's at stake though koji
fleet anchor
I'd say people largely overestimate how much damage Blood actually adds
bleak spoke
yeah for sure
but i also think that the + side of blood and clf is that your windows are a bigger part of your damage and that's probably good for prog especially
especially if you're assigned to do annoying things
will definitely try botd when nzoth goes down and i actually get to reclear though
trying to actually make value out of it is super fun
fleet anchor
Like for example
If I take my BotE profile
And comment out actually using Blood
I lose 4.2% damage
That's all the major on-use is actually adding. I suspect people would probably guesstimate at least double that if you asked them to pick a number. 😛
So like if you take some random ST tunnel fight. Like say H Xanesh.
Even in this case where Reaping seems really low
It's still contributing essentially the same or more damage as Blood Major would have anyway
And CnS is a better minor than Blood
Generally speaking
So the floor for ST is quite high, the ceiling for AoE is extremely high
The floor for AoE is quite low because you can get yourself stuck on 45s cooldowns if you aren't good with it
But honestly if you used it just on sub-20/above-80 on an AoE fight you'd probably still get like 7-8% damage
patent topaz
depends on gear as well, for me blood and vop majors are 1k ahead of breath
limpid matrix
Do I take multiple Nothing Personal traits or choose Double Dose over all but one of them?
rigid mango
You sim it 🙂
crimson palm
Love the passive aggresive 🙂
fleet anchor
Gotta keep Mystler and I employed during this pandemic. You wouldn't want us out on the street would you?
rigid mango
I can always do thte passive agressive 🙃
strange python
ive never played assa in m+ i always went for outlaw should i try it in this weeks tyrannical?
sour glade
I'm playing sin this week in m+ because my outlaw weapon sucks so I do more damage on bosses in sin even with 3x eb.
I mostly play outlaw on fort weeks and those times when I want to think less while in keys.
azure pewter
Is it worth to do 3 combo envenom to keep Elaborate Planning up? (sorry im new to rogue)
scarlet sequoia
no
azure pewter
okay, thank you
patent topaz
it used to be a thing in like trial of valor during legion but ep got nerfed since then
worldly sandal
Any tips for heroic hive mind? Im taking my rogue for the first time tonight.
crimson palm
Spam eb and bote small adds 
near magnet
yo , for AoE simulation which option do u guys use hectic cleave or dungeonslice?
royal lantern
near magnet
so what should I choose cause I play assa in dungs its more fun to me
fleet anchor
DS has plenty of resealths for what it is representing tbh
Looked into this a fair bit the other day and honestly the number of restealths for the time portion of the non-boss segment seemed pretty reasonable all things considered
HecticAddCleave literally has zero restealths so that's not gonna fare any better 😛
near magnet
aight thanks for the info mate:)
quasi pewter
its not about the number of restealths
the apl just plays like absolute dogshit in the dslice sims
flint gorge
hey im new need some help
like i got a 120 boost and all my friends left
so i got no one to help me learn
if thats askin to much sorry
i was told this places helps new rougs
rouges guess not
quasi pewter
what do you need help with
flint gorge
everything lol got trown in the deep end
ornate gazelle
is there a way to actually use the opening full 3 seconds of master assassin at the beginning of mythic n'zoth?
quasi pewter
you should read a guide to start with @flint gorge
patent topaz
that is really vague
quasi pewter
we cant really help you if you dont tell us what ur struggling with, trying to understand the guide is the best you can do for the beginning
cobalt pelican
read your abilities and put them on your bar where you like them
patent topaz
you will use pretty much all of your abilities
cobalt pelican
if you're brand new to wow just
walk around randomly
and roleplay
or some shit
patent topaz
basically you want to put abilities on keys that are easy to reach
patent topaz
the more you use the ability the more easily you should reach it
keybinds are entirely preference
flint gorge
yeah which abilites should i be useing the most
patent topaz
rotational abilities - mutilate and envenom
patent topaz
that means abilities you will use the most
flint gorge
umm
patent topaz
to build and spend combo points
drifting cosmos
Or go banging dummies till you understand
fleet anchor
@quasi pewter honestly I think you're overblowing it pretty considerably. Doing a couple things non-optimally is not "dogshit" nor does it actually have that much impact on the valuations of things in a general sense.
drifting cosmos
How the skills work
quasi pewter
i mean
it vendettas mobs that die 1 sec later
its absolute garbage
no debate
doesnt even garrote 3 targets when 3 are up at points
fleet anchor
I think there is a debate and that you are again overblowing this rather considerably.
patent topaz
you said you read a guide, after that you should be familiar with fundamentals
quasi pewter
its playing like absolutely no sin rogue would ever play in a dungeon
fleet anchor
There is a reason the boss mob and long duration mobs are at the start of the sim
quasi pewter
there is no way its usable for valuation of your gear
fleet anchor
The impact of Vendetta usage on the waves of short-duration mobs later in the sim is a non-issue
Because people don't use Vendetta on those types of mobs generally speaking in any sense either way
flint gorge
thanks for trying guys
quasi pewter
thats wrong
patent topaz
I mean you literally can read a paragraph that says what you do
flint gorge
?
fleet anchor
If you can define anything that you think would actually legitimately change the valuation of gear then please do give that constructive feedback but I think you'd find the things you are bringing up right now aren't actually as relevant to that as you think.
fleet anchor
Damage and ability profiles don't have to be 1:1 in order to be extrapolated to gear valuations. That is just a common myth about sim fight styles that has been shown time and again to be inaccurate.
e.g. there was a subthread on r/competitivewow about this a while ago on a similar vein from some M+ Rogue players where they said Outlaw players couldn't "trust sims to tell them what the best stat is" because the fight styles don't map directly to exact dungeons, despite the fact that Outlaw literally prefers the same stat profiles on any possible configuration of target counts or fight styles. And it's just something to say without much evidence. 😛
And it is of course true that the APL is not going to be able to map out the exact ability usage pull-to-pull like a high-end player might be doing on a set route, but again I don't think you'd find it actually impacts the end result other than the DPS number itself all that much. (And I would argue most play is more chaotic than people would like anyhow.)
Also these things:
it vendettas mobs that die 1 sec later
doesnt even garrote 3 targets when 3 are up at points
Are extremely rare and certainly not the average behavior across the 10k iterations. This is why Raidbots cautions against using single iteration results to figure out the behavior. The timings and fight durations are not deterministic.
FWIW I just checked and ran a sim on my own profile and every single wave was triple or quad Garroted and Vendetta got full value except the last one on the small add wave at the end of the sim. So I'm not totally sure where you are coming up with these conclusions that it is a common issue.
lone junco
If you run exang with BOTE. does it hold the BOTE until after the exang to overlap the runout? 5 seconds is pretty short, but should be pretty easy to overlap it with a strong /use trinket.
just reminds me of BOTA
and that was the shit on exang.
fleet anchor
@lone junco Would have to look. I changed the BotE timing wrt Exsang last week.
I made changes to sync up BotE with Exsang windows anyway based on what the Exsang users were seeing anyhow
lone junco
BOTA damage was nice because it landed at the vanish rupture. and 10s matched well with the 18s/2 exang.
Here BOTE, after the vendetta + exang with a strong trinket, would be easy to line up.
fleet anchor
Forget who brought it up, Raz or one of the Exsang crew probably
lone junco
just dabbling imo. I havent mained rog since Grong progress lol. and def dont have bote yet.
just started looking at him again last week.
fleet anchor
Exsang was missing a little bit of logic since it was quite a bit behind for a long time but now that it's getting back up there I tweaked a few things
lone junco
probably easy to use with MA TB.
5 sec window over the 3 second window. BANG BANG BANG
quasi pewter
i obviously cant say how big of an impact the mistakes of the apl make on the evaluation of different gear options, but there is alot of them
fleet anchor
Was definitely a gain to hold Blood for the Exsang windows due to the rather short duration as long as it still fit within Vendetta
lone junco
not like it matters anyway. when 15% of you damage may or may not be tendies
no offense to the sim
quasi pewter
and this is not uncommon at all
lone junco
but corruption fucked it all
fleet anchor
Timing edge cases will happen like that far sure Saryero with Vendetta but it will not really impact how you think it will when the goal of DS for comparisons is to give a simulated allocation of damage/ability profiles
lone junco
damn vendetta small add 1. totally getting burnt.
fleet anchor
The usage doesn't have to be perfect for it to be relevant
lone junco
btw, I really liked seeing the Logs of people running high haste, where they are just blowing energy out the top during vendetta
fleet anchor
Like something like that would minorly decrease the value of NP trait on one iteration on one Vendetta. It is really nothing that wouldn't come out in the wash over 10k iterations.
lone junco
hince the shift to crit gems, and DS>
quasi pewter
i mean its not 1 iteration though
fleet anchor
DS execution log is not a guide on how to play that sequence of events
Nor does it really need to be
quasi pewter
i cant look into 100 sample sequences but i'd bet there is errors like this in more than 1/3rd of them
and thats pretty significant
lone junco
isnt that a Slice sim anyway?
fleet anchor
We could of course make far more complex CD holding logic based on incoming add wave size, etc. but that would be total overkill and not affect the relative results hardly at all
Rogue APL already has some of the most complex add wave logic of any APL in SimC
And generally holds things correctly in the majority of circumstances
Vendetta has too many complexities with existing Font/Coral/Exsang/Vanish logic to build delay logic for add waves without it being more trouble than it's worth though
Because it doesn't affect the net result significantly
strange python
Because it doesn't affect the net result significantly
you say that about 5 things and suddenly it's significant
lone junco
the hps of those adds probably die from the SS garrote anyway
im just glad you guys finally got the GGG in
fleet anchor
I mean haste, no offense meant but I'm pretty sure I could say with 100% confidence that I have run a lot more comparison APL sims than most people. And I have tried a vast number of suggestions from this very thread that turn out to either be neutral or 0.1% DPS differences for things that were said to be "major" problems.
strange python
i get your point but that 0.1% adds up, is my point
if you keep saying this or that is insignificant then suddenly things go out of wack
fleet anchor
0.1% is non-relevant for doing a 10k iteration sim to figure out which Corruption or Waist item to equip
lone junco
not when Corruptions do 15%
faint harness
competitivewow reddit doesnt live up to its name
faint harness
basically
fleet anchor
If two items are within 0.1% then wear whatever the hell you want
Because Assassination's per-pull variance nowadays is like 18% 😛
lone junco
yeah, Remember, when you fart during your burst window you probably lose more than 0.3%
and my wife talking to me while, im trying to focus is like 5%
fleet anchor
Pressing your PTT key probably removes more DPS than the difference between half of the weapon enchants nowadays. 🤣
lone junco
right
strange python
i actually gain dps when angry, i want sims to account for that!
fleet anchor
lol
lone junco
I do remember some complex conditionals in legion that HAD to be better. and were like a 0.0005% wash
or loss.
fleet anchor
Play Warrior
lone junco
Rage
lone junco
has anyone found what the % haste cap is yet?
Im def seeing it in logs. just not sure what % number it might be.
granted when you have a ton of the Expedients, you cant plan for them to proc right when vendetta hits
fleet anchor
I'm sure Raz has hit it if it exists 🤣
fleet anchor
Hogging all the Expedients in the region
quasi pewter
for me and raz haste is not highest weight anymore atleast
lone junco
just spewing out the top
fleet anchor
Haste isn't even top for me right now and I am only running 1 Expedient + Vita
lone junco
but that only happens during vendetta. and tbh, maybe it carrys through the mid block
fleet anchor
But Expedient probably still the best when you are stacking
quasi pewter
i mean expedient increases the weight ofc
but with deeper exsang build it seems like 45-50 is the "cap"
lone junco
saw tisu at 50% crit. and that is good shit.
always liked high crit.
Deeper is only there cause the haste cap would be even lower with Vigor
quasi pewter
well yes and its just better with exsang
lone junco
anyone over 100k yet?
quasi pewter
not without stars
scarlet sequoia
ill be over 100k in 2 weeks
lone junco
another socket?
fleet anchor
Haha nice
lone junco
you run like 49 c?
scarlet sequoia
55 atm
quasi pewter
with vop major i could be 100k in 1-2 weeks too
fleet anchor
You'll be competing with those 445 ilevel Arms Warriors soon enough, don't you worry! 🤣
lone junco
our warrior went fury ofc.
fleet anchor
lol
lone junco
hes the guy that liked Glad spc.
fleet anchor
Warriors seem to love going Fury despite Arms being totally busted. But alas.
fleet anchor
Feral can pump atm at least
faint harness
any spec can pump
fleet anchor
Would rather play Feral than Balance atm
lone junco
im maining druid, and like feral for the hive
faint harness
with the right amount of good corruptions, you're a winner
lone junco
gib myself on Maut though
fleet anchor
Dude I'm so jealous of the Feral corruption
lone junco
seriously the bites are too big.
fleet anchor
They seriously should have put that shit on the Rogue Dagger
fleet anchor
Yeah it's insane. It's like 0.33% per Corruption
Freakin better than IS and GW
Would have been so nice for Rogue specs as a unique affix
lone junco
i just saw a german shepard eat a fluff dog on the sidewalk
fleet anchor
That is... unfortunate
lone junco
fluff off leash.
lean marten
its also life-boating ferals im pretty sure lmao
fleet anchor
Corruption is life-boating a lot of specs tbh
lean marten
true
lone junco
saw a R1 rogue on the dog boss with like 25% tendy damage or something
so yeah.
grats on not dying while thats running
fleet anchor
So many of the good Rogue parses are just tendie RNG with 80+ Corruption and it's kinda unfortunate.
When there are other specs that perform at that level basically every pull
fleet anchor
Think it gives people a little bit of a false sense of balance, but right now some of the class tuning issues are pretty bad
lone junco
but corruptions did EXACTLY what they were intended to do. Flatten the difficulty curve through gear acquisition
just a lot faster and more RNG than WF/TF imo
ive still never seen a gushing wound, and i have a ton TON of corruptions druid.
fleet anchor
lol was one of the other Rogues in our H sales run last night who was running 96 corruption worth of pure TA and getting a healer to pocket him 😄
96 net corruption that is
lone junco
96 is probably like -45% heal
fleet anchor
And he got 2 tendie procs one pull
fleet anchor
And it did like 20% of his damage lol
fleet anchor
Haha yeah I saw that video
lone junco
imagine thinking that your rotation mattered at that point
fleet anchor
His corruption circle was the size of the room 😄
lone junco
but the sim gain by 0.1%
fleet anchor
He also died and got a brez
lone junco
did he just eat the circle
lone junco
i got 3 6buffs in a row once, and the tank dropped a boss mechanic on me.
so yeah. if you are that far ahead, they try to get you dead.
fleet anchor
It was for quite a while
I'm sitting there on Shadhar last night.. and I got only 7 procs. RIP.
storm perch
What are best corruption for m+ as sin?
fleet anchor
This dude, 26 🤣
26 is what the top parse has too
But he didn't die
DPS is only like 128k vs 134k
So pretty much that made the difference lol
lean marten
im not even that mad about corruption except A) sellin it on AH and B) does too much dmg
fleet anchor
Yeah corruption is mostly fine but it's kinda too impactful on the high end of the RNG spectrum
Like the mechanical idea of it is fine
lone junco
i love the expedient builds.
or anythign that buffs the class. but the raw damage ones are silly
lean marten
buy ur MW's expedient, buy ur tanks TD, buy ur fmages mastery. WIN NYLOTHA
lone junco
in Arena, my kills at 425 ilvl were tendy proc, Kidney Smoke. and dance
got a R3 tendy first
fleet anchor
Yeah I think the impact of BoEs was probably too high
I mean usually BoEs are kinda helpful to get an edge but whatever
This tier they are a big game
lone junco
last raid BOE ive gotten was in Blackrock Furnace or something in wod
such bad luck in that dept.
fleet anchor
Like people legit doing multiple server transfers
Moving BoE corruption around
It's pretty insane
drifting cosmos
Does dmg from tendy stack? When you have 2 items with it
drifting cosmos
And that's the same for gw too?