theres an answer
#assassination
faint harness
bleak spoke
if you don't care enough really just follow the pins i guess
faint harness
if you sim yourself
bleak spoke
lmao if you don't add a dash of verse before you gem it up
it tastes weird when it comes out of the oven
faint harness
smh, ppl think theres like a recipe for success
bleak spoke
mighty moss
Sorry for asking
spring topaz
I do have 24% crit gain. But raidbots is your best friend.
But look up melouza on Draenor if you wanna look at stats, my logs are pretty decent as well.
warm parcel
theres frankly no point
each chars different
so each char wants diff stats
¯_(ツ)_/¯
yes, as a base crit and haste are good
and vers not so much
but you might already have crit and haste plenty
or diff corr
bleak spoke
anyone else just staring at weak's discord pfp for extended lengths of time
warm parcel
bleak spoke
glacial steppe
If playing 3x SS/Exsang I do want to delay my Vendetta until my Vanish is back up, correct? (should be 15s delay or so)
echo crest
how much curruption is good to play as sin on progress?
buoyant flicker
as long as it doesnt kill u or make ur healers oom ur good bro
echo night
Is the hidden Heart of Darkness nerf confirmed?
echo night
Got less 2ndary stats as assass now than i did 2 days ago with exact same gear
dark crag
Did you drop under 25?
wet ruin
did you increase your resistance by 3 and got below 25
echo crest
how should i deal with thing from beyond? blind? or is the slow enough?
cloak and back?
tropic ocean
blind
Stun
Run
Cloak/cloak
if theres no dmg income otherwise can eat it as well
raven locust
It's a healer mechanic anyway xd
glacial steppe
I feel like the grand delusion hitbox is kinda buggy
sometimes i dont get hit and kidney him as soon as im in range
sometimes i do get hit
rough loom
how would you say assa ranks in m+ compared to outlaw? is it much worse?
orchid notch
@anbeefer re: 3ss exsang, delay only if it won't cost you a use in the fight. If you only get to cast exsang 6x instead of 7 for example. By waiting, then don't delay.
tropic ocean
@rough loom its not
it has less utility/control than outlaw
dmg potential is better/same depending on dungeon/affix
strange python
@cobalt pelican huh, the rng on BBI is that bad? never had it
crimson palm
It should sort of overlap naturally, you use vendetta 4 seconds into the fight, vanish around 13
And exsang is 2:17ish
Most of the dmg comes from SS
rough loom
okay, so control disadvantage is basically not having gouge and having to waste CP for a stun, correct?
cobalt pelican
it's the exact same procrate
tropic ocean
and yeah bte is huge as its in your normal rotation while also stunning and increasing dmg taken of the mob
cobalt pelican
just less noticable cause it's a stat bonus
rough loom
ah right
orchid notch
@circ0n outlaw is demonstrably better. Not just because of on demand large group AOE burst, but utility. Longer range melee means more positioning options, gauge is an extra interrupt, etc. Theres arguments for 3xSS assassination, during high tyrannical keys but only if you're running consecutive 3-4 mob pulls, and never pulling large groups.
But in high tyr keys you NEED to pull large groups usually so. Catch 22. Assassination is viable. But inferior 90%
rough loom
does garrote silence/dmg reduction make up for it to some xtent or is it more or less negligible?
rough loom
mhm makes sense
tropic ocean
its good for caster-heavy packs but cant compete on other mobs like bloodswarmer or other hard stuff that outlaw can just take care off
rough loom
was thinking about switching to rogue from my dh, as we now are 2x DHs in our m+ group, but I kinda dislike the outlaw playstyle with constant rerolling and having basically only 2 dps buttons
brisk light
Hey guys i was wondering in general haste and mastery are in general better than crit ?
tropic ocean
well you can play assassination personally I don't think it heavily influences your gameplay unless you really want to push the highest of keys
theres several sins at 4k+ or so
brisk light
and if you wanna push high keys then its better to go crit or still haste mastery ?
crimson palm
tropic ocean
as sin you want to go crit>mastery>vers
depending on week/azerite vers will outscale aoe dmg over mastery so you need to individually test with raidbots what is good in what scenario
(and also depending on your corruptions)
tropic ocean
% stat corruptions or proc ones heavily influence your stat weights
like if you have several honed minds for example mastery will get probably worse and crit vers will get better and so on
rough loom
assa is also harder to gear, or?
tropic ocean
yeah
dusky moon
assassination is fine
tropic ocean
your to go azerite comes from tr vendor only
tropic ocean
you can also play 3 ss with 3x heart of darkness from raid azerite but its very behind when it comes to overall output
especially in keys like fh/ur/ml and other trash heavy dungeons
white wyvern
If you are actually serious about pushing as Sin just find yourself two big AOE DPS and fill the ST niche.
dusky moon
if the tank does not stop pulling for you to drop into stealth, yeah, that may be problematic
tropic ocean
its not really problematic
if you handle it smart and obviously play with eb traits
worldly sandal
slightly unrelated, but if you get the 30k honor/35 marks, can you just skip buying BotE rank 2?
tropic ocean
you can either stay behind when mobs are about to die and restealth when he chains
dusky moon
but big pulls are fun too - drink a potion, trick the tank, bote, FoK until evrything is dead
tropic ocean
if he chains properly
e.g. when hard mobs are dead chaining into next
you have your bleeds setup and can just keep pumping
rough loom
you alos cant restealth on obelisks, right?
surreal bolt
When you use bote do you just keep fanning or do you try and spend your cp?
dusky moon
just fan
rough loom
mhm, i like the more control aspect of the outlaw, since that's what makes rogue fun, but the rota is just so boring
dusky moon
@worldly sandal for all essences you can use rank 3 without having rank 1
but I'm not sure you can skip rank 2 from the regular vendor
worldly sandal
yeah thats what i was curious about. i didnt know if i got the achieve for 30k honor and had the 35 marks if it would let me skip buying r2
dusky moon
it may be the same as other vendors - does not show rank 3, only shows rank 2 if you have rank 1
worldly sandal
rip
dusky moon
but you should have enough marks doing BGs and stuff to buy both without much issues
lean marten
if u have r3 on any char mother will sell u r3s
worldly sandal
never bothered getting bote on my main (retribution) so im getting it for the first time
also i spend marks on a legion xmog set early on like a nooblet so im behind
mossy pawn
!wa
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination WA's for BFA:
https://wago.io/HJUbINlV7 (Mizerok's Group)
https://wago.io/E1EB91OtM (Lokkek's Group)
https://wago.io/SyLUNGD4X (Sovv's Group)
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)
glacial flare
is there any way to force a corruption effect like IS proc more often ?
spark rampart
How do I fit ashvane's into my rotation? M raiding tn for the first time and I got it yesterday
tropic ocean
How to use Razer Coral trinket?
- For Assa, apply it as soon as possible and consume stacks with each Vendetta, reapply after.
spark rampart
So I apply when the fight starts, and then when do I use again for the crit?
it has a 20 sec cooldown so wont the activation for the crit be well out of my open vendetta window?
spark rampart
got it
also, sin rogues always garrote 2 times on opener, how do I do that?
is there like a talent im missing or something?
strange python
hey , what stats would u prioritize for a workshop key in assa ?
spark rampart
eh im gonna keep master assa then
so, my sin rogue opener is stealth , garrote, muti, rupture, muti, vende, worldvein, toxic blade, and then envenoms
why do some people open differently on some fights like wrathion with the stealth, mutilate, rupture, mutilate, garrote, etc
fervent jasper
What is the ideal sin rogue trait setup for m+ this tier? got all my BiS outlaw gear now wanna build a sin set
glacial flare
@spark rampart also depends on what your main essence is
if you got CLF, it should be something like Mut, Rup, Mut, Garr, CLF, Vend, TxB, Vanish, Env ...
if your running bote Mut, Rup, Mut, Garr, Vend, TxB, Bote, Vanish, Env
thats for MA btw
think there's something on the pins on the openers
spark rampart
nah im running worldvein
dusky moon
@spark rampart with subterfuge talent you can reapply garrote out of stealth for 3 sec
spark rampart
dont have clf rank 3 yet
lone junco
first raid on rogue since grong. went about as expected.
452 baby damage
died like a bitch on the Eyestalk boss. took a melee to the face.
sim is 61k so most of that went as planned
crimson palm
@spark rampart you don't want to garrote with MA as you get 3 guaranteed crits in that window, that's why you mut
dusky moon
@fervent jasper personally, i run 3x SS and 1+ EB for fortified weeks, or 1 EB + something else for tyrannical
spark rampart
so what should my rotate look like with MA and worldvein
fervent jasper
so always 3 SS
lone junco
thats actually what im using.
spark rampart
or opener what I meant*
fervent jasper
fill in the rest with HoD or TTK?
crimson palm
mut rup mut gar wv ven tb
spark rampart
got it
lone junco
I used world vein and my trinket right before the vendetta.
lean marten
u can do a patchwork quick sim and see the order
spark rampart
yes thats what ill do
lean marten
but there is variance if u get 4cp or not from mut
dusky moon
@fervent jasper 3 SS is pretty much a must for garrote opener and re-vanish
crimson palm
then mut mut rup
lone junco
spark rampart
ima do mythic w my guild for first time tn
crimson palm
on skitra you can blind one add if you need to
maut is pretty much patchwerk
you can cloak during no healing buff period to help your healers a bit
spark rampart
got it
one of my major problems as a rogue is not really using my cloak and other survivability stuff as much as I should be in raid
crimson palm
most of the time cloak is your panic button
lone junco
one of the top rogue logs on maut holds his vanish until after the barrier is down. kindof scumbagging but he wont gib himself.
btw, I didnt really like running MA worldvein. and look forward to getting my SS subterfuge opener back.
spark rampart
what should my aoe be looking like as sin?
just remembered that its another one of my big problems atm
bleak spoke
Sin aoe without talents (subt, ct) and azerite (ss, eb) is pretty awful don’t worry about it
It’s dps neutral to rupture a second target if you don’t do it in toxic blade or vendetta
But sin is by and large a boss damage spec
strange python
If its not a gain to rupture and garrote on a 2nd target why does the dps increase on patchwerk 2 targets?
tropic ocean
it is a gain
strange python
Apl just keeps up garrote and rupture on 2nd target
strange python
Ye i agree
bleak spoke
It’s a gain on overall
It’s not a gain on your main target
I think it rupture has to last 9 seconds? Or something for it to be a gain on overall
Not sure about garrote but possibly longer cuz of energy expenditure
We investigated this in ep I think
tropic ocean
@warm parcel is it really a loss on prio to
have 4 bleeds running on 2 target
?
to chain more finishers into prio?
bleak spoke
Not a loss
warm parcel
no
bleak spoke
It’s neutral
warm parcel
just a really small gain last I looked at it
and this was jaina
it came out worse than what OL gained from wits
bleak spoke
Oh it was that long ago wtf
tropic ocean
might need to resim some stuff again then
bleak spoke
Back then wits was pretty busted though
warm parcel
¯_(ツ)_/¯
tropic ocean
think it can be a bigger gain now? if my logic is not flawed
warm parcel
yea but say ST then was 30k
rup on 2nd was around 1k gain on your prio
so not really amazing
bleak spoke
But honestly yeah who cares I’ll continue to multidot with a long living second target
Unless it’s an actual loss
warm parcel
yea its not like its gona hurt you
tropic ocean
I mean its very niche anyway
bleak spoke
Just makes it play smooth
warm parcel
if the targets live and have to die
tropic ocean
cuz when will 1 or 2 more envenom over duration x be a big impact on priority dmg
bleak spoke
Yeah basically
warm parcel
i wouldnt avoid it
but I wouldnt sweat about it either
say vexiona
I aint gonna rupture the big lad
cause I know its gonna die to cleave
and Ill rather pump boss with ven
warm parcel
I do garr it yea
tropic ocean
yeah garrote i meant sry
but also 1 rupture in begin
so I can just pump more during vendetta
no clue if its actually a big gain but works well
glacial steppe
Im kinda confused. I had a top gear sim where my Dragonscale simmed ~80 dps better than my Coral but when I sim trinkets only (also via top gear) it sims like 1k less
warm parcel
url
glacial steppe
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/ikkh9VRj5YechJa21QueXh this is where it sims +80
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/ikkh9VRj5YechJa21QueXh and this is where it sims 1.1k less
lean marten
thats same sim
lean marten
3rd time
lean marten
yeah ur top gear uses coral in both sims so im confused
warm parcel
clf - vita coral beats scale coral
bote - theyre close
glacial steppe
ah so with bote i can swap coral for scale if i wanted to
warm parcel
then its less punishing to swap vita to scale yes
just that bote itself is around 1k down with your current setup
glacial steppe
yeah, but dunno if i should go clf for carapace tho
glacial steppe
i guess, ill try it then
just had a really weird cd timing so i thought bote fits better
glacial steppe
since i use my first vend on the first eye
warm parcel
yea it all depends on when and where you need dmg
strange python
Who did you bribe to get R9 expedient?
glacial steppe
currently using vedn on first gazer, in p2 and after second darkness
but i dont have it for lust
@strange python idk, super lucky, then again i have nothing to fill the left over corruption with so
my druid has 3x gushing wound ;-;
strange python
I got my first expedient today. 460 Boots from visions, when I already have 470 GW Boots
lone junco
@spark rampart unless you have a set with Echoing blades, or SS (open with 3 garrotes) your aoe will be dog shit. I ran 3DD last night and just glued to the boss or big bug on Hivemind. and on dragon for vexiona. it is what it is.
aka, boss damage is good.
strange python
3 SS 3 EB on my first and only hivemind Kill
Was actually top Boss and ravager damage
Didnt do shit to darters though, but others got that covered
lone junco
all my luck is on hpal. got Lockjaw shoulder at 450 and 480 first time each.
night vale
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/hQcsCAMJpnSr5VEiuHvAJn
Telling me to pick some weird traits! but i guess go with it.
crimson palm
@glacial steppe bote's much better that fight
it's so satisfying to bote the small adds in the last phase XD
crimson palm
it still is 😄
glacial steppe
and i think i dont have cds up there iirc
weird strat and weird cd timings for me
crimson palm
you should get an overlap on first and third set
glacial steppe
nah, my first time cds is second darkness due to me using my first vend on first gazers
cus weird strats
glacial steppe
dunno if it matters that i dont have em for lust burn tho
probably not since we had a 3% wipe i believe
static glacier
do I trust sims that Bote is not good ST?
warm parcel
its not "not good" tho
vestal wren
just fallow the bote cult if it makes you most comfortable
static glacier
I think my hands can press one of the others if need be, essences sorta scuffed.
BotD 2 simming 4.2k higher
vestal wren
in times where 30%+ of your damage can be due to random corruption the diffrence of essence choices often is irrelevant
warm parcel
4.2k is you simming something wrong
static glacier
ah i've got an empty essence slot >.>
let me recalc this
ok, the top combination of essences with Blood major is 2k under
2019 dps to be exact
I think i'll just use it, burst dps is valuable.
faint harness
why use something that is 2k dps worse
warm parcel
2k still sounds quite a lot
warm parcel
is it rank3 bote?
static glacier
no lol, rank 2 bote, being beat out by rank 2 breath
warm parcel
ah yea then
static glacier
came back 10 days ago. grinding em
faint harness
rank 2 bote is shit
static glacier
time to get used to breath 2 or crucible 3, both are sidegrades :l
alpine stream
What's the assassination best guide you guys know?
red bloom
alpine stream
😦
rigid mango
!guide
prisma monolithBOT
quasi pewter
there is multiple guides linked in the pins
red bloom
- discord
rigid mango
All of the above are good.
alpine stream
Okay thank you ^^
red bloom
The wowhead one is solid, not too familiar with the other two
wet ruin
I see more people using g->g->r as opener with SS/TB instead of the normal one. Have anyone tested if this is a gain or not, or with a specific profile etc.
alpine stream
A think the best one is g->r->g
rancid bobcat
it'll be a very tiny difference if it matters at all
alpine stream
Just for the 10% damage buff on first talent
patent topaz
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/9Pb8rUpR5CEkb1ECLBCUgE DS and vop major 
static glacier
fair.
wet ruin
from my experience the g-g-r is better for without lust
since with the other one you tb window seems a bit 'tight'
rancid bobcat
follow your dreams
lone junco
@patent topaz DS is only showing up there because your haste with Lucid is capping out due to the extra Vendettas right?
looks like the expedient 3 and 1 and 2 and vita and lucid and vigor was just too much energy
patent topaz
thats not even my final haste form
rigid mango
DS wins when you start stacking expidients
lone junco
if you run a single sim with HTML, and Vigor, you can see the Energy graph, and see that it capped out at a point
my guess.
rigid mango
Raz runs DS, exsang and 3 SS
lone junco
but its happened in the past
patent topaz
my azerite isnt good for SS
Can anyone run azerite droptimizer for me? I dont have prem
lone junco
with all the E in the world, I guess DS and bigger env /ruptures is a good thing.
warm parcel
theyre unaffected
lone junco
sorry, thought proc rate was effected by haste
lone junco
if the numbers go up, is it a meme?
warm parcel
expedients are good
warm parcel
and unlike stars, its a good corruption
patent topaz
wtb a guild
lone junco
@patent topaz can you run that final kit again with HTML turned on. would be neat to look at. might need to use the Quick sim.
unless you dont actually have that azreite setup
patent topaz
azerite is specced outlaw atm
patent topaz
idk, you tell me
rancid bobcat
am i missing something in the settings
lone junco
if it dropped vigor for DS, he is probably capping energy somewhere.
rancid bobcat
if you're running >40 corruption in stars that would be hitting 90k
i mean you dont use stars every fight but
patent topaz
I only have t3 stars
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/aWADjiupTgmviPKFDqfwGW I was just trying sims, looks like a pretty bad set
patent topaz
yea, just usable 480s from the vendor I got
patent topaz
got 10k residuum atm, not really worth gambling atm imo
patent topaz
my dh sims 87k with stars 4 
hasnt even set foot in hc
lone junco
@deft obsidian 9 sockets is nice. how many of those did you buy with mementos?
deft obsidian
7 sir. I just love visions <insert sarcasm>
Oh wait I tell a lie, 6! I've another ring that I no longer use that was socket 7
lone junco
do you get more from masks, or is it the same
deft obsidian
5 mask runs /w crystals is like 4.8k ish a run
patent topaz
I do chests + crystals. Not killing all mobs. Works out to around 4.6k in org
lone junco
I ran out of steam just after getting finishing cloak on druid. I dont hate the idea of socket currency though effort not gold. but i wouldnt do it until I got a good box piece with solid corruption.
aka hpal and rogue are fucked, cause IM about done with the invasions.
deft obsidian
I tend to grind enough for one and hold hoping for weekly cache, and then spend as I approach no.2 I'm weird like that
I've stopped doing dailies on my alts now, I was doing 20-25 visions a week and can't hack it anymore
scarlet sequoia
rancid bobcat
alts are for squares
deft obsidian
WTB Raz...
lone junco
I was dumb and tried them in groups early on. and wasted my time on the group table buffs.
scarlet sequoia
whatever sims highest
warm parcel
those corruptions tho 
lone junco
@scarlet sequoia love to see that high crit exang.
warm parcel
nice game
warm parcel
it does
deft obsidian
Yeh tendies pulls ahead easily but the proc based damage is so annoying
rancid bobcat
warm parcel
Internal bleeding talent does apply a bleed that gives energy
Given you can stun the target
lone junco
neat.
rancid bobcat
wheres the galecallers tho
lone junco
there it is. even with DS and all the expedients, and no gc the energy is capping. probably why he shifted to crit gems.
patent topaz
how much unbuffed haste is that, im about 32.7 with my set
shy axle
if using the bote major and MA, do you sit on bote for ~ 30 seconds to always combine it with vend/van? Just changed back and totally forgot if thats the right way
quasi pewter
you always use vendetta and bote together yes
patent topaz
vop minor simmed pretty close for me with bote major and subterfuge
round dragon
So on my Azerite pieces I only have one double dose, I know the goal is to have more. Along with the 1 double dose, I have a shrouded suffocation. Right now it sims higher. Don most go back to master assassin when you get more double doses or is it just a six each one and see what works out best?
Sim*
arctic harness
Do you hold BOTE for Vendetta?
arctic harness
Ah righty
devout salmon
Tips for the Coagulated Horror in Org? He seems to drain a ton of sanity from me every time. Looking to jump from 4 mask to 5, and my 5th will be the half sanity mask so I’m afraid he’ll chunk the crap out of me
patent topaz
he is quite annoying this week
wait until the wall madness procs, then go in and use cds on him
only sidestep the casts, dont move too much
devout salmon
That’s what I was thinking, or sitting on the pack in front of him until Titans is off cd and hopefully proc it
rancid bobcat
its not really that bad
with enough experience you should be able to get a feel for when split personality is coming up
like 5 seconds or so when the purple glow initally shows up
craggy nexus
even then, proccing Gift of the Titans into it is super safe
rancid bobcat
scenic nacelle
Raz probably the luckiest person in the world... I have yet to see 1 expedient
crimson palm
Are you precasting CLF?
rigid mango
This other bitch rogue in my guild got dagger and had to trade it to me
jolly spoke
whats the opener for MA spec?
quasi pewter
openers in guide
cobalt pelican
not even 100k
quasi pewter
strange python
Holy shit
low ocean
noobby rogue question, does cloak work on boss mechanics?
tropic ocean
yes
low ocean
noiceee
scarlet sequoia
it did bro
lethal heart
lone junco
@scarlet sequoia looking good.
that /use gladiator trinket is made for exang dreams. does the APL hold 3rd exang for vanish?
lethal heart
apl is meh in general for exsang right now
or at least used to be 2 months ago
doubt anyone looked into it
scarlet sequoia
it has been fixed
lone junco
the real sim is logs. when some prophet drops some god tier shit.
chilly marsh
low ocean
is coral still really stronk?
ornate mauve
I'm leveling up an ass rogue and selected subterfuge but I can't see the use for it at low levels.
devout salmon
Worth using 465 helm over 480 eng goggles for visions if the 465 has SS?
drifting cloud
yes
devout salmon
Not running TD corruption either fwiw so extra Stam isn’t that relevant
lone junco
@ornate mauve you can cheap shot 2 things then garrote the 2nd, move into damage. ? idk, i leveled as outlaw with mark and gouge
ornate mauve
That works for more than one target, but most of the time I am just fighting one enemy. And enemies still die way to fast to really warrant doing extra work.
errant swallow
!wa
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination WA's for BFA:
https://wago.io/HJUbINlV7 (Mizerok's Group)
https://wago.io/E1EB91OtM (Lokkek's Group)
https://wago.io/SyLUNGD4X (Sovv's Group)
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)
upbeat pecan
Not sure where to ask, is this a weak aura or addon?
cobalt pelican
basically everything in this game is a weakaura these days
shut thistle
tacit steppe
I’d be willing to bet TB Sims better for you
Also your trinkets kinda suck
And get your R3 essences
Vigor is also prob better than DS... sounds like you didn’t even attempt to read a guide
opal minnow
you hold 2nd vendetta for your vanish when playing subt correct?
not seeing logs of people holding vend for vanish
loud light
I'm assuming you mean with vop minor since normally vendetta and vanish are both 2 minutes so there's no holding to do
vast forum
with subterfuge, you use vanish later than vendetta in opener
dapper dock
Does vendetta buff bote damage?
opal minnow
im asking specifically about the 2nd vendetta and vanish aprox 2 mins into a fight
without vop minor
dapper dock
Run quick sim scroll down and see how the sim handles it
next arch
See, I’d love a gw, I’d also rather not get it on anything but a 475 tho.
strange python
No, Vendetta only buffs rogue abilities @dapper dock
What's the opener with Subterfuge but no SS traits
Garrote mut rupt
You don't garrote twice, you only do that with SS
It's in the Pins or one of the Guides tho I guess
didn't see it in the pins
Ye then it's in one of the Guides
warped panther
How do you open with Subterfudge build but not with Shrouded Suffocation
Do you do Garrote -> Mutilate -> Garrote -> Rupture?
tacit steppe
You 
cobalt pelican
literally 3 lines above you
loud light
subterfudge is my word of the day now
warped panther
LMAO
tacit steppe
tacit steppe
Think the openers have been in the pinned guide since bfa launch too sooo
warped panther
So basically Garrote -> Mutilate -> Rupture -> Mutilate -> Vendetta -> Blood of Enemy -> Toxic Blade -> Spam Envenom
and afterwards just Vanish to reapply empowered garrote
something like that?
warped panther
I was just reading it
strange python
that opener feels like blasphemy. hate it
warped panther
cause didnt see the guide previously
next arch
yeah i would be aswell, lucky boy, only GW ive gotten so farm is on my spriest.
on a 420 piece -_-
whole mantle
fleet whale
i got really lucky and got GW on the 470 N'zoth ring
quasi pewter
yes
quasi pewter
thats nothing
its ~2k raid dps
depending on how good haste is for the ppl in ur grp
warped panther
Why did I start simming a lot better out of nowhere with sub instead of MA build?
Why did I also start simming better with Blood rather than VOP build?
any ideas?
crystal vault
vita is only for your group right, not raidwide
rigid mango
Subt is better when you overcap the crit w MA
It also scales better
Realistically might've been better last tier.
warped panther
For example this is what I am running now.
And I tried to compare with VOP build and it has barely any difference
While before VOP was so much better with MA than subter blood
subtle tundra
why the 6 min sim 
warped panther
Should it be more? I don't know how to sim, so tell me what I can improve
drifting cloud
use 5
subtle tundra
5 is the standard if you want to compare to others
harsh anchor
We start Nzoth prog tomorrow; I've watched a few videos of a rogue pov but I wanted 1st hand input from knowledgeable rogues to add to what I should work on.
Any tips of prio such as ven psychus? Currently have 2dd, 1bbi, 1np and 1 hod. So I feel vop wouldnt be worth it without more NP. Anywho, tips?
cobalt pelican
whether you vendetta psychus or not is mostly down to what you're told
generally playing np heavy or some other low uptime requirement build is better if it's comparable to your normal build for bossdam, vop major is probably a swerve but vop minor can be nice
fathom swift
Vop minor can give you nicer timings on cds for p2 but prob dont use major on prog
harsh anchor
ofc, I'm rolling with blood as major. And I figured comp and RL would decide what I'm pumping into. Was just curious what someone had to say.
fathom swift
Dont need to use vop minor early prog anyway since you generally hold cds for psychus/boss vuln either way
It does let you cd a basher if you're cding first psychus tho
cobalt pelican
i'd kinda just plan out if you're gonna play it or not before hand and just stick to the same thing
i think it can be handy early on, mostly cause it lets you comfortably vend 2nd basher regardless of your psychus assignment which means your side should be pretty clean before midngate
and if you're making it past psychus1 the vendetta on the basher before mindgrasp is kinda nice
harsh anchor
Thank you for the input, I appreciate it 🙂
tiny sierra
any tips on how i can squeeze out some more dps?
this sim i tried out a bunch of different combos with my corrupted pieces but it feels like this is the ceiling with what i currently have
subterfuge sims higher rn and it sims higher without me running SS
tiny sierra
also if i do run subterfuge without SS what does the opener look like?
limpid quest
I ran a Raidbots top gear sim... should I have a 120 agility gem at all times in a prismatic slot? being its top stat even tho its asking for crit?
empty ravine
do a sim on the site to scale your stats, i personally found the crit gem to be better than the 120 agi gem
limpid quest
tx ET
Not sure what stat scale is saying here does this mean I need more agility?
sterile ocean
is it worth it to sim the 120 agi gem or nah?
drifting cloud
and secondaries scale better on aoe
limpid quest
Im trying to understand the scale here been a while
looking at my scale should the numbers be higher for agility? being its low here?
drifting cloud
no thats just how agi is
limpid quest
k my question is what is the stat sim good for? looking at it
drifting cloud
not much
limpid quest
lol
drifting cloud
well you wanted to know if you want to use a 120 agi gemđ
stats say no, you could have also just simmed the gem
either way its a almost irrelevant difference
limpid quest
what I thought as well, tx for reply
Im just getting back to playing a rogue again so learning alot from here... garrote something im trying to understand if you use it more than once on a same target it boosts your dps
sterile ocean
@drifting cloud that was me
drifting cloud
goes for everyone 😛
limpid quest
can you explain garrote being used in rotation
I always make sure it up but wondering if I should use it multiple ties while it is up for any benefit?
cobalt pelican
no
limpid quest
k tx
cobalt pelican
keep it on your target at all times, refresh any time it's 5.4 seconds or lower
limpid quest
sweet tx for reply
elder crescent
There is a really good Weak Aura that will blink when your target is in the refresh window for garrote and rupture.
Also if you're running iron wire and SI azurite trait, I use vanish on CD for the good garrote.
pearl widget
Is there a place where we're talking about Alpha?
arctic tulip
sour glade
I run crimson tempest in everything except siege, temple, KR, and workshop but you could get by just running poison bomb everywhere.
glad torrent
Im assassin rogue, any way to escape another assassin rogue if they open on you from stealth and get bleeds? If it were a lock i could vanish+Cloak of shadows but Cloak doesnt get rid of bleed and then i get unstealthed
rancid bobcat
is this arenas or just open world
glad torrent
open
is the answer: have a raid group ready to jump over to help you out lmao
seems like all i can do is stand there and die since this dude was full mythic gear
rancid bobcat
kidney and hope they trinket, then blind and run away
pop vanish once you've ran a few seconds so you can guarantee combat drop from pvp
so even if the bleeds knock you out of stealth, you can still mount up
as long as you dont aggro mobs
frigid kestrel
Whats the big thing with Blood in single target fights that im missing? Im simming higher with Guardian, but i feel like im missing something.
marsh raven
The crits?
frigid kestrel
I mean, thats what i thought. But sims dont seem to say its the "go to" choice for me.
I was thinking it was them Envenom crits after that Toxic Blade, but it.... IDK im lost
marsh raven
The initial damages disappear in single target, but very high crits that can be paired with cds + if you crit a lot you get a bazilion of haste
sullen pagoda
@frigid kestrel bote is usually outsimmed by vop/clf but its the most consistent one imo and most versatile
marsh raven
that makes some dps
sullen pagoda
vop sims like 2k more for me but its like playing a slot machine so i just went back to bote
marsh raven
but needs to be lined up pretty well, espaceially considering it has a different cd from vendetta
sullen pagoda
it can also have same cd if you play some build like this for example https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/jCgNcVYeSCPs9Cs5MvxHZS
marsh raven
yeah if you do not play with a 2 min cd trinket that is ^^
indigo sinew
a kinda noob question. I've seen some people run 3 SS and no EB traits in dungeons. how would this work in pullls bigger than 3 mobs? how would your aoe work basically
marsh raven
No need to be mean... that's @indigo sinew
frigid kestrel
Its only a 500 DPS difference
indigo sinew
bruh
heavy haven
Multi dotting and prio dmg with fan of knives env i guess @indigo sinew
drifting cosmos
Depends on your actual mob count, if it's 4-5 it wouldn't be too different without eb imo
But if youre talking about 10-20+
No eb would feel bad
rancid bobcat
if they have no eb traits that prob means they have ttk or heart
so they can just play like legion sub and spam big finishers with ttk or just do even more damage with bleeds with stats from heart
its not like not having eb means youre running uldir gear with only 1 outer trait
indigo sinew
True true
static glacier
why's VoP parsing so high on ST bosses accross difficulties?
next arch
Are you running Nothing personal azerite trait ?
static glacier
I'm saying parsing
as in on warcraftlogs
and I'm running NP, I assume anyone running any form of VoP will have NP as a priority
scarlet sequoia
its because its an rng essence
so its gonna perform well on logs
cus some1 is gonna have insane vendetta uptime and get a good log
thats how it works
static glacier
this is for all percentiles
and Im not sure I understand that argument raz, surely a no rng essence tha sims higher will on average outperform rng
scarlet sequoia
which is true
static glacier
since for every parse it gets lucky there should be one it does not
arctic walrus
And a top parse isn’t directly tied to essence choice alone
static glacier
for sure, but the minority that is using VoP is having much better results
scarlet sequoia
no
static glacier
this isn't a top percentile parse
it's across all parses, VoP is outperforming, what's going on
scarlet sequoia
its not
arctic walrus
Corruption is what is carrying most top logs
static glacier
is it people using it for farm / faster kills?
arctic walrus
Yeah idk why you’re saying it’s out performing everything
scarlet sequoia
corruption + vision procs
u could play fucking
conflict major and get a rank 1 log
if u get good corruption rng
arctic walrus
There’s like probably a handful in the first page of a boss top logs
scarlet sequoia
doesnt mean its good
raven locust
Almost every top log is still BoTE, pretty much only Wrathion has a top VoP parse
raven locust
It's 100% a fact
arctic walrus
It’s corruption, good play, and better gear
static glacier
im not saying top, im saying on average VoP is coming out ahead, exceptions are aoe fights and last 2 bosses on Mythic
raven locust
oh you mean someone else
raven locust
^ im curious too
static glacier
raven locust
Click my link and show me these VoP parses
arctic walrus
Yo bro used by 10%! That’s hard facts for an essence being better
static glacier
im not sayng it's better
im saying it's outperforming, and for these fights it is for those people atleast
??
nimble mesa
He has a point
static glacier
because im looking at individual bosses
boreal maple
damn time to sepc VoP and loose 5k sim dps
raven locust
Ok you put on all bosses and its BotE
static glacier
comparing all fights together in mythic is silly due to how few kills of the last few bosses there are relatively
boreal maple
guess it will perform better
nimble mesa
And 400+ parse isn't a great sample, but not that bad neither
scarlet sequoia
because it is an rng essence
static glacier
here's maut
faint harness
@boreal maple it actually sims better for many ppl 
scarlet sequoia
so people are going to have a good pull
static glacier
im sure you guys can switch the bosses
scarlet sequoia
what dont you understand
static glacier
and look for yourselves
scarlet sequoia
are you dense or what
boreal maple
i loose ALOT
static glacier
im not comparing all bosses because obviously VoP isn't an option for aoe
arctic walrus
And if literally almost 2/3 of a spec have 1 essence, the average will be brough down significantly. While the fewer sample size has less variance
Do you not understand that
raven locust
No one plays Assass for AoE Mo
faint harness
Do you guys know how averages work btw
scarlet sequoia
like talking to a door
static glacier
agreed, but on those fights it's Bote
without question
your argument of they're having good pulls doesn't work because this includes bad rng pulls too, it's all percentiles. not just for high percentile lucky pulls
??
that's how I see it, im willing to listen
faint harness
I dont think ppl in here understands how averages work
sullen pagoda
@static glacier flaw in that graph you are looking is that there are low amount of vop parses to compare
static glacier
like yeah there's a smaller sample size
faint harness
Theres a point where sample size isnt relevant
scarlet sequoia
vop major is mostly run by people with good gear
sullen pagoda
by that same logic sub was "fine" throught bod
static glacier
but does that mean better players are gravitating to VoP? or just bad players run Bote?
scarlet sequoia
meanwhile blood has little johny with 450 ilvl
static glacier
which doesn't make sense to me
scarlet sequoia
so average goes down
arctic walrus
You arent going to run vop major unless you gave azerite from last 2 bosses
static glacier
since we know bote is better
sullen pagoda
like https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/8kHRAZqviW1MAo4kzeYbFY
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/jCgNcVYeSCPs9Cs5MvxHZS sure vop major sims like almost 2k more for me
but its so rng its insane
faint harness
Nothing is set in stone in this game
nimble mesa
@scarlet sequoia sounds like an assumption
scarlet sequoia
theres like 4 different essence builds rn
faint harness
Well it is
static glacier
anyways, got dungeon now. ill be back boys.
faint harness
Thats why logic > assumptions
faint harness
Numbers > Feels
sullen pagoda
yeah
scarlet sequoia
one isnt better than the other
vop just happens to only really be good on pure st fights
more or less
sullen pagoda
@scarlet sequoia raidbots earning a bank on poor rogue sims
nimble mesa
Yeah, and someone asking: Guys, I realized XXX, how is that
Is a healthy thing
If what he realizes is legit
sullen pagoda
i literally have to go to like 20mil if i want to sim everything in 1 batch
nimble mesa
Mathematical models of raidbots are not failsafe
scarlet sequoia
ye need raidbots legendary or something, too many sockets for epic version rn
raven locust
feelbots.com is the more reliable sim
faint harness
sullen pagoda
but ye i tried out vop for 2-3 weeks now not enjoying the rng fiesta and really shitty gameplay overall
static glacier
that's fine, a reason to not run it for sur
e
since this is a game, we're allowed to have fun 😂
faint harness
If you want to play the casino, play VoP major. Easy fix
nimble mesa
Isn't VoP capped in proc per minute?
sullen pagoda
u literally just sit there hope to get procs and your gameplay affects the log so barely its insane
nimble mesa
Wasn't it like 0.85?
scarlet sequoia
no vop is purely rng
nimble mesa
Or it's just average and it can spam but "will" average on a large sample to 0.85?
I would have thought it has internal timer
raven locust
Nope
scarlet sequoia
it does not
raven locust
I've had 3 procs on an opener in a single Vendetta cd
nimble mesa
Okay. Nonetheless, as it was said, those sample perform best for the unlucky guys too
static glacier
if anything
nimble mesa
static glacier
i found that 95th + percentile
sullen pagoda
friend got rank 1 all classes on maut hc by having infernal 100% uptime for what 3min fight @nimble mesa 🤷♂️
static glacier
favouring non VoP
nimble mesa
If it was that RNG, I think the lower bracket should be way more left shouldn't it?
raven locust
As stated before the only people using VoP Major have 490 chest/shoulder Azerite on ST fights
scarlet sequoia
can u just scroll up and read the conversation
static glacier
anyways, cya for now
nimble mesa
I don't get where you pull your numbers for regarding gears
sullen pagoda
490 chest is actually dps loss for that build for me @raven locust
faint harness
We need someone who actually knows math to explain this
nimble mesa
I'm not doubting them, just would like to see how you get them
scarlet sequoia
find out how many people are playing vop major
raven locust
What chest sims higher for you?
scarlet sequoia
and how many people are using blood major
faint harness
3000 ppl is enough to get an average
fathom swift
the only people who use vop are people who have insane gear and are trying to parse, your average jimbob just doing prog with his guild using bote isnt gonna pull those numbers
scarlet sequoia
if it just so happens that 10k people use blood major and 1k people use vop major
nimble mesa
Yeah, on Shad'har sample sizes ar 416 vs 3k
scarlet sequoia
obviously blood major is gonna be worse on average
sullen pagoda
vexiona one cuz carapace one forces u into ttk @raven locust
arctic walrus
24k vs 3k
faint harness
3k is still statistically sound when finding an average, is it not
nimble mesa
400 starts to be okayish too
arctic walrus
Mb looked at the wrong thing
faint harness
otherwise school has been teaching us wrong about quantified data collection
scarlet sequoia
look at the average ilvl of the ppl playing each essence
fathom swift
it's not about the average it's that there is a difference in the players that use each essence that you're not accounting for
faint harness
sure you have to consider the ilvls/gear, but thats not visible here so you cant argue that without evidence
nimble mesa
And I'm no king at statistics, but do own a engineer degree, so I can of get the basics
Still would love to hear where the "everyone with vop major has better gear" comes from. Maybe you're right, but I have no clue how this was concluded
faint harness
would have to do a separate study of the average gear lvl of these 3k vs the 25k 🤓
fathom swift
how is it not visible it's super obvious anyone using vop is just tryna rng parse, who used that on prog
sullen pagoda
raz has a point that vop build is a niche that usually works with high specific ilvl pieces
its not just about putting vop on and you're done
nimble mesa
I still don't get the argument of RNG parse
faint harness
maybe vop major ppl play way higher corruption
nimble mesa
If it was that RNG, you would have a pool of people with SHITTY parses, and a pool with BIG parses, with most people in the middle
Which isn't really the case here
fathom swift
no you don't get why I'm saying that
shy dust
Mtvcribs outta curiosity
scarlet sequoia
😡
shy dust
Does triple SS and exan sin worse with your gear
fathom swift
the kind of people who use vop are doing it to parse, so they're doing a bunch of other stuff to get good parses that other people aren't doing
faint harness
how did you come to that conclusion
fathom swift
like running more corruption or padding or having better gear
faint harness
that was the point
raven locust
@shy dust Sim it
fathom swift
because why else would you run vop?
nimble mesa
Hmmmm
shy dust
No I just wanted to see with his gear Det
sullen pagoda
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/ioSc2SK4uo26DkkSh5xVre
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/jCgNcVYeSCPs9Cs5MvxHZS
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/8kHRAZqviW1MAo4kzeYbFY @shy dust this is all 3 setups sims for me
faint harness
why are you asking me? you're the one saying ppl only run it to parse
strange python
the day i get vop major shoulders yall ruin it 
nimble mesa
I would still argue that the top players of any major essence run is trying to parse strongly
sullen pagoda
3x ss bote is close to 3x np bote @shy dust
shy dust
Did you try CLF with SS
sullen pagoda
i havent simmed clf at all tbf
shrewd night
scarlet sequoia
im the highest simming rogue so all your arguments are irrelevant, clf is the best essence its pretty obvious
shrewd night
what did I just roll into
faint harness
raz 
shy dust
I’d recommend simming it
arctic walrus
Who the fuck even are you @scarlet sequoia
boreal maple
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/9UFmbgdZG5TxUhngzpavoG @scarlet sequoia im getting you soon
scarlet sequoia
just 5k to go mote
arctic walrus
Why is this guy even copying your transmog
scarlet sequoia
sub 40
boreal maple
any sim above 40 is a cheat sim
scarlet sequoia
ok moment
arctic walrus
Lol the fuck is this February?
shy dust
60
deft obsidian
60, always.
shrewd night
*59
arctic walrus
No a million
raven locust
corruption is a healer mechanic
shy dust
59* more accurately
deft obsidian
Been mid 50s all progression.
arctic walrus
Don’t take damage, corruption doesn’t proc
deft obsidian
Blind those bitches, all good 😛
soft lily
I wish TFB had a smaller radius. Their explosion is the same size as KS. Sometimes you’ll be able to stun it before it goes off otherwise you just get smashed. That or their explosion was either delayed or had a cast.
nimble mesa
Can't check right now, but does anyone has a sim with 3*NP + VoP Major under the hood? Would like to see how much uptime simc gives to the Vendetta buff to see if it reflects more or less what we see on logs
arctic walrus
Probably saryero but he’s probably sleeping atm
sullen pagoda
i linked above @nimble mesa
fathom swift
you can just do it on your own sims anyway? its not that hard to make a profile
nimble mesa
Yeah no right, don't need 3
shy dust
And at that point just check the uptime yourself with a sim
shrewd night
there's been like half hour debacle regarding vop and trying to make the build correspond with parses on wlogs 
distant lava
soft lily
I tried 3 NP with VoP but Sims always favor 3 DD with Bote
warm parcel
I played vop before sary was born
nimble mesa
Very feelcrafty, but Raidbots gives a 24% uptime vendetta, and that's... I haven't seen that low on about 10 profiles I opened, included people parsing pretty low. It's often around 35%+, with peaks in the 45%
strange python
you also only see the luckiest of lucky in logs
nimble mesa
Yes an no
soft lily
I was thinking of running 3SS and 3 NP for a heavy cleave dot play
strange python
look at logs that parsed badish
nimble mesa
I should be able to see a trend that is more or less translatable to the logs
strange python
like 2-3rd page
strange python
nimble mesa
People with 72K damage parse
strange python
thats interesting then
warm parcel
I mean its a fair point
faint harness
More factors to dps than vop uptime
warm parcel
Err how old are those logs
strange python
wasnt there a fix recently to that in simc
warm parcel
Something changed regarding vop recently
nimble mesa
Last 2 weeks
warm parcel
Like week or two ago
arctic walrus
Logs that far down your also looking at some rotational mistakes
nimble mesa
Yeah but still
faint harness
rotational mistakes, bad corruption rng
nimble mesa
I'm only looking at vendetta uptime
faint harness
you can still have good vop uptime
nimble mesa
Rotation shouldn't affect that
Assuming they press the CD on cooldown
(They are still doing Shad'har MM, which I'll assume they can press their CDs on cooldown)
faint harness
so yea, go through about 350 more logs and get back to this channel
nimble mesa
@faint harness Don't think that should be the philosophy
faint harness
You need to hit a statistically sound number
warm parcel
No need to continuously take a jab
fathom swift
if they're parsing that low they also might have just died on the fight, in which case they won't be using cds on cd
warm parcel
Mas gotta point
strange python
i think he's onto something and yall need to be less hostile
nimble mesa
I wish I could just run queries on warcraftlogs to ggive me the average on parses, but didn't find anything like that
nimble mesa
I'm at 20 parse checked
faint harness
I am not hostile 
I'm just saying it requires more logs to make a valid point
warm parcel
And he obviously gets it
warm parcel
Sure hes not at 20k logs yet
static glacier
it's not the size of the sim, but how it's played in a raid