i think beginning bfa introduced hasted bleeds/poisons
#assassination
lean marten
untold current
About to start Carapace M prog, so running some outlaw and sin sims. What is a good profile to sim assa on the fight? Dungeon slice maybe?
lean marten
does ur raid need cleave or ST is the biggest factor imo
untold current
Not sure, yet
lean marten
u have 3+ mages? lol
untold current
nah
faint harness
Just cus theres adds on the fight doesnt mean outlaw is more desireable
untold current
1 fire, 1 frost
faint harness
Frost mage??
untold current
@faint harness true, I am really just prepping so I can switch depending on what we need
lean marten
yeah i'd just play what you feel comfortable on and ask ur RL if he would prefer more cleave or ST from u
idk
untold current
Yeah, I have been playing largely ST assa most of the tier, switching to outlaw for hivemind so I have that ready
soft lily
Our fire mage has been playing frost mage too for farmable bosses
fleet whale
The lack of breath major on logs still surprises me a little bit. With neck level getting higher and higher it's gonna do massive damage
strange python
People need to get used to it I guess. It's the endless Feedback Loop of "top logs use it" thats hard to Break.
Start of the Tier many top end guilds didnt have R3 BotD and If they did they didnt sim it or it simmed slightly lower. Simply because they are used to Blood, and Blood DOES do work obviously. Especially for when big burst Windows are required.
Then everybody copies that, and no one even considers BotD
Right now Breath Major sims 1.3k DPS Higher than my best BotE Major build
So its obvious to use it
But even If it sims same-y or like 100dps lower, it will perform better in reality on many fights than a PW Sim would leave you to believe
Simply because of many fights having adds to snipe or at least get CD reductions from that aren't accounted in the PW Sim. And while Blood does have some Increased value in these situations too, it's just not nearly as high I'd say
But like you says, as Neck Levels increase etc. the gap will increase i guess. And people will swap
fleet whale
Bote really doesn't scale with neck level either, except for the minor part and the initial damage which isn't significant
strange python
Yep
strange python
Ironically though, the doo-doo BotE minor is currently one of my 3 best ones
So I DO Run Bote, just not major :P
vestal wren
Blood is possibly the most overrated essence in the game
fleet whale
it's easy to use and makes for flashy openers on meters
that's why a lot of people like it lol
I imagine when more and more players get stuff on farm they'll start using breath more
lean marten
what happens to ur frames if a players name is more than 6 letters lol
lean marten
fleet anchor
@tropic ocean I am proud of you!
fleet anchor
I heard you liked big crits 😄
But yeah honestly the more pulls you get with it the stronger it gets
As you get a better feel for the timings
misty hazel
Exsang snapshots haste right?
old escarp
Breath major is fun on nzoth but feels like the majority of it isn’t useful damage i.e. sniping low HP mobs and it’s mostly just tentacle pad as tentacles never feel in danger of living too long. That being said I’m still progging Nzoth and don’t have a good handle on purely ST dps from it.
tropic ocean
@misty hazel yes
misty hazel
Mastery aswell?
tropic ocean
@old escarp its actually super good on nzoth
misty hazel
If I use honed mind
tropic ocean
u can snipe tents outside to blast synapses inside
u can snipe harvesters to pump big hits into boss
I don't think theres a better essence for prio dmg if you play it good
you can actually control where your dps goes
and for tents/corrupters they need to die so u hit them >80 and <20
old escarp
I don’t get a psychus phase. But I assume sniping harvesters to pump nzoth is probably a significant boost
tropic ocean
the buff has some duration as well so
u can snipe spike tentacle or shit to have a 100% dmg hit when nzoth is damagable as well
if you dont go down in psychus
old escarp
I agree on the tentacles. But it’s not useful damage imo. Just pad in P1 (psychus/synapse damage obviously not pad) but I can see how it would be strong in p2 sniping harvesters to funnel the 2x dmg into nzoth
Chaining resets off the spike tentacles in transition to next tentacle spawn is fun though
tropic ocean
its not pad, if you use it properly, its actually very useful
like no matter if you play good or not you can alwas get >80 <20 which is higher dmg on the tents/corrupters than bote anyway
if u snipe good u can use the buff to pump into boss as well
when people come out
its easier to snipe spikes obviously but you can just snipe tents as well
old escarp
Yes I always game it to snipe resets. I just mean tentacle damage is useless imo, because tentacles die always. There’s never a threat they won’t die. I understand it’s still beneficial damage but tentacles will die with or without my using breath on them. I’m not sure if that’s proper or poor logic on my part though
hot chasm
Is dual wielding shard of the black empire something to do?
tropic ocean
its a decent corruption yeah
nimble mesa
!coral
prisma monolithBOT
The way to use coral in M+ is using it on your priority target,
and then whenever that target dies, reapply it to your next target.
Whenever your target dies it gives you the crit it would give from using it,
so consuming the stacks for crit mid pack is generally suboptimal.
stoic token
what would be safe max corruption for .. m+ 10-15 keys
What is the upper limit of what is suicide? im 48 I think that seems ok.. wondering if going to below 60 too much
jolly comet
i run 58
but i usually run with healers than know i run that much and tell them when i need to be focused
stoic token
as atank or dps?
jolly comet
dps
stoic token
ok.. wow so my 48 not any big deal
jolly comet
i mean
i chug pots like its going out of style
i also run the alch trinket
so extra health from pot
stoic token
so that works with the pot.. interesting.. I got a 470 trink
jolly comet
i pot is like 75 percent of my health
stoic token
would need to replace either my 445 razor coral or 460 torment in a jar trink
which trink woudl u replace if u were me..
jolly comet
i dont play coral so personally i would swap that but thats my personal pref also its 15 and below you arent trying to min max
the slow is what fucks me most of the time. try to catch up to your tank pulling the obe boss away
the circle the healer is gonna heal you through most of the time anyway unless you are really low then you can cloak or run out
if you have lower ilvl and high corruption obv thats going to be worse cause youll have lower health to deal with
i have a shard T3 TD and two of the 2% crit corruptions
stoic token
im 474 ilvl.. running rank 3 twilight devastation ring
12% mastery corrut ring
and 9% haste weapon corruption
not sure I should not swap the haste corruption from more crit or mastery.. I am not sure how something like echo void .6% on a 470 piece does in m+ or a gushing wound
i fixed it.. got rank 3 twilight, 12% mastery bonus and 9% crit bonus.. total 53 corruption. crit 35/13/46/11
thats perfect i think
crimson palm
@scarlet sequoia https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/3kwSEgUMecGEe6puEQHhEr can u check this shit out when u get a chance
scarlet sequoia
what do u want me to check out sir
crimson palm
the 3SS build
scarlet sequoia
go on
scarlet sequoia
it simmed higher like that for me for a while too
strange python
How much corruption you guys use for farm bosses?
vast forum
@scarlet sequoia you're still using an agi gem? does it sim better or just forgot to disable "always use" for sims?
scarlet sequoia
sims better
vast forum
weird
i thought the secondary scaling is way ahead at this point
it is for me at least
scarlet sequoia
no clue
drowsy scroll
Mine is at 3.57 without font so, yeah who knows 😛
crimson palm
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/hrq5JJt2q61kjiaSviquBH managed to squeeze in around 93.7k, probably need vita for the SS traits?
lone junco
neat. Agility itself is garbarge, but the ilvl for the corruptions probably isnt.
is 93.7k super high? or normal mythic high
distant lava
it's pretty high
hot snow
Hmmm comparatively, my sim score is like 30k lower and I have similar gear
distant lava
I really doubt that ngl
hot snow
I’ll have to have a look later tonight at my azerite shit. Sadly I’m an essential worker 🙄
fleet whale
what? at 465 ilvl or 474?
hot snow
I’m 470
distant lava
@crimson palm 1 np isn't simming higher ?
fleet whale
For some people it doesn't
hot snow
Hoping my issue is largely neck traits
fleet whale
what essences you use?
hot snow
Still on my m+ set so, Iris, purification, lucid and breath
But I’m using condensed and iris (swapped out purification) for st
crimson palm
@distant lava nop
it wants all the haste it can get
vita is like 1.2k dps upgrade at this point
fleet whale
you don't have Breath of the Dying or even formless void?
oh nvm you have breath
my mistake
lone junco
So my Moonkin peaked at 199% haste the other day and I'm normally at 33% unbuffed. Made me lol.
fleet whale
Havoc DH's can get crazy high like that too
scarlet sequoia
weak
lone junco
A bunch of Vita in my group and lust and the wrathion trinket and some haste corruptions.
fleet whale
that's sort of the "problem" with assassination. We don't have any azerite traits that give us broken stats
but i guess it's not that bad since it will all go away in SL
scarlet sequoia
i get to 300% haste with every proc
fleet anchor
Breath major is fun on nzoth but feels like the majority of it isn’t useful damage i.e. sniping low HP mobs and it’s mostly just tentacle pad as tentacles never feel in danger of living too long. That being said I’m still progging Nzoth and don’t have a good handle on purely ST dps from it.
@old escarp honestly don't really think this is a thing on N'zoth
fleet anchor
There is really no wasted damage on that fight
royal lantern
that doesnt count
fleet anchor
Unless you are padding on Psychophages downstairs
scarlet sequoia
kinda rude
lone junco
At leaste rogue might be able to use it. Cast speed got my fingers cramped.
royal lantern
still love you ❤️
fleet anchor
Melee being able to snipe Spike Tendies is actually a huge gain tbh
Since they are almost always outside of cleave range
Same with Psychophages on phase transitions when they are getting cleaned up outside of the group
Also you can usually easily reset on Basher into Corrupter
Which is 100% useful damage because those are prio targets
fleet whale
Breath of the Dying will rise in the coming months
fleet anchor
The logic that just because a mob is almost dead that killing it faster is not a gain is not really sound imo
I actually laugh to think what a full coordinated group could do with multiple Breaths at the same time instead of just like the 1-2 people who usually bother doing it
fleet whale
when we all get 90+ neck levels the damage could be insane
fleet anchor
With the 2s reset window it would be hilarious to watch a group of people all pop off at like 2m health left 🤣
It's already kinda ridiculous in BGs for that reason if you are playing with someone else using it
If you both are rolling the death buff you can basically one-shot someone if you use it at the same time
But rolling the death buff is really the key in both situations. The difference between optimal and poor usage of Breath is very massive
But on average like 12% of my Basher damage is from Reaping and 18% of my Corruptor damage is from Reaping so it is a pretty large damage increase on prio target
vast forum
if entire raid runs breath major, every1 just presses it on a synapse and it's dead 😄
tropic ocean
hard dps stop on psychus guys !!! we need to phase 2.30
vast forum
tbh
if you get a good coordinated group that wants you to parse on n'zoth
you just take a world tour with psychus with every1 PUMPING synapses with breath major
take like 11 stacks and then solo dps him down
lean marten
Does it take that many stacks on mythic oof
scarlet sequoia
no
vast forum
no, but if you wanna parse, you can just take him for a ride
don't think you can convince 19 ppl to play just for your parse tho
maybe koreans will do it
crimson palm
raz do you rupture into exsan disregarding current timer?
scarlet sequoia
i do ye if its less than 25 seconds left
scarlet sequoia
i have no idea
tropic ocean
@lean marten 7-8 stacks usually
muted sail
can someone tell how high haste etc should be ?
tropic ocean
wet ruin
why is haste that good when you have 300% of it, does it not have diminishing returns
wet ruin
yea, but 300% seems much even with DS
rigid mango
I mean 300% seems like a lot ye
wet ruin
I would've assumed that something like mastery or versa will gian more value, since I assume you are gcd capped at that point
rigid mango
bleeds still scale off it to some extent
wet ruin
true, but its only 2 bleeds, while you can be spamming mutilate into envenom
rigid mango
Yip. Idk, 300% is a fuckton but idk what raz sits at during nothing
But granted if u hit 300% > exsang
You will fucking pump
wet ruin
yea, but then the question is if its worth to keep it until you get a vita proc or racing pulse proc
rigid mango
Imagine if OP was still a hasted proc with all of this garbage
wet ruin
oof
vast forum
90% uptime on 20+ stacks 😄
rigid mango
Woulda been great, alas, it's not
wet ruin
is the haste build better than all around GW if you ever get to that point
vast forum
only sims can say that
wet ruin
has anyone done sims with that
vast forum
i think it might be better
wet ruin
yea, its more of a question if someone played around with it
rigid mango
I've thought of that too, the hate build kinda scales exponentially with itself
But it also DR's sooner or later
My assumption would be haste + GW
wet ruin
yea, thats what I thought, but if raz gets like 300% haste at points and its still not diminishing
where would that point be
or if it will be reached within the normal 39-59 range
strange python
That Point is in my dreams, because there is no way I get all that expedient/RP in real Life
Legit got 0 expedient
rigid mango
I mean idk about not DR'ing at that point
It's more like, there's nothing he has that beats it yet
afaik he doesn't just randomly have GW pieces to swap out other pieces for
wet ruin
yea, I guess thats true
crimson palm
GW is better
vast forum
how do you know?
vast forum
but you're not comparing it to an expedient piece
crimson palm
You got a string for a rank 3 expedient bracer?
vast forum
gear compare does 
crimson palm
Ye but I'll probably need to sim 3x SS traits
DD sim higher atm
nvm actually
i'll do it manually
wet ruin
the good thing about expedient as well is that it doesn't really scale with ilvl
while for GW to beat it you would need it to be on a higher ilvl piece
wet ruin
I saw one today
wet ruin
he meant gw I think
wet ruin
yea, I know about him
finite yarrow
whats the reasoning for some ppl going vop major on nzoth?
wet ruin
today on a boost there was a shaman with 3 GW
crimson palm
rigid mango
And a tank with 3/4
crimson palm
Exp III outsimming it
rigid mango
wet ruin
and 2 of them were on a 475 'mythic 15' piece, meaning he got them from the chest...
rigid mango
@finite yarrow it's a high roll tactic to semi pad on psychus w/o actually padding, sorta.
Wouldn't use it for progression ever
finite yarrow
ok ty
crimson palm
320 dps on 5 corruption
wet ruin
gief gold plis
rigid mango
Payout
wet ruin
is the % for lead worth
rigid mango
Yessir
wet ruin
or is it the unsaved part better
wet ruin
true
rigid mango
Anyways cough assa
crimson palm
I mean I got dagger and carapace chest on first kill today, it can't be harder to get a 475 GW XD
rigid mango
Eat shit
wet ruin
I have dagger and 2 chests + shoulders and 485 ring, yet I don't have the GW
so it is harder
wet ruin
bonus roll 😄
rigid mango
Lucky for me it's optimising for boosts and not for anything I care for
crimson palm
I have a theory that the trick is into fucking up your pull
wet ruin
or be the first one to loot the dagger so you can't trade it 🙂
crimson palm
My guild literally trolled me and pulled with CDs on cooldown
Cuz I was getting 86k+ dps which would've been around top 15
But I got both items and bm'ed our rogue
lul
rigid mango
I've never caredthis little about logs honestly
I've barely progressed any of the fights
yet to kill 3 of them or some shit
rigid mango
Literally getting gear for my boost runs and chilling until Sl
rigid mango
yeah I love it
Getting shat on raz and saryero in my runs w/o even being in sight of them 
outsimming me by nearly 10k
crimson palm
shadowlands will probably be the same tho
crimson palm
those who get good loot early will just outdps everyone
rigid mango
This is about someone being literalkly 10% ahead of me in raw sim numbers
crimson palm
in some form or another
rigid mango
No
Not as bad as this
Never as bad as this
Raz was beating me by 2k last tier and I was pissed about it
now he's beating me by 10k
Close though?
Not much for me to do about it especially since he's obv a very insane rogue and his corruptions aren't proc based TA shit or IS either, so it's hard for him to low-roll it either
crimson palm
Ye probably the variance won't be this high
wet ruin
I mean, my gear is insane in terms of ilvl, and I am simming like 90k
rigid mango
I sim for sub 85k in the set I use every day
Add about 2-3k on that to make it my BiS set, but I never use that 😉
Just want actual expidient pieces and shit so I can run this fucking exsang build that I run anyways
just better in every way
crimson palm
You haven't gotten a single one since release?
Like I've at least 4 more in my bags
rigid mango
Not on my main, nope.
crimson palm
Total of 8-9
crimson palm
You get 2 GWs tho >.>
wet ruin
I have like 2 of them, and I have 40+ corrupted items in my bank
rigid mango
Because I bought both of them
crimson palm
Oh.
rigid mango
Rest of my pieces are all procs 🙂
I can get t12 Deadly mom or something
same for RP
crimson palm
Without the dagger, I was at 25 corruption with Expedient and GW
More resistance means dropping HoD
rigid mango
Ye but I have 2 GW that fill out most corruption pots
If not, I have 2 Severe that do the same thing
I wear all my low corr stuff because it's the only thing that's good 🙂
crimson palm
It's the same situation on my side
wet ruin
I got another GW on a piece that I had 470 GW on 🙂
crimson palm
I was gonna drop below 25 next week if I don't equip one of the higher corruptions
Because every slot taken by Severe III / Exp II / GW
And mecha rings
fleet whale
you don't have to drop your corruption if you don't want to
could just stockpile them
crimson palm
you can't
You won't be able to get a new item
at least that's how it was with the quest items
Binds when picked up
Unique
fleet whale
seems like dumb design
fleet whale
even with that said i don't think it's really that big of a deal
rigid mango
Killing nzoth once and doing a vision once, that you would be doing anyways?
I really don't see the issue
tacit steppe
If you aren’t gonna hit r15 it doesn’t matter bc you can stockpile the visions
crimson palm
Yeah
rigid mango
So again, you can ignore it forever until you get a piece where it's fine to use it
fleet whale
and full clearing a vision is a joke these days
crimson palm
And then you can't use the piece instantly because you haven't stockpiled resistance
rigid mango
Seems like you're making an issue out of it more than there actually is one 
tacit steppe
Not as mage 
crimson palm
And you'll have to play time-gated catchup
Instead of being able to stockpile and apply all that resistance instantly since you've been playing the content anyway
lone junco
I'm just not excited for dailies for the visions currency on an alt. So my cloak just died at R6 lol
On my 3rd guy. R3 tendys and just stopped there.
tacit steppe
If you’re in a situation where you’re not capped yet so you’re thinking about stockpiling just for HoD the content you’re doing prob doesn’t matter if you pick a lesser trait for a bit
crimson palm
wut?
tacit steppe
Uh, basically like Zine said, the issue doesn’t really make sense
crimson palm
Your explanation makes no sense
If I have a gearset that sims the highest and I'm at 25 corruption with it, unable to equip more, upgrading my cloak means literally DPS downgrade
vast forum
do more visions 🤔
white wyvern
Okay so don't apply the 3 resistance this week. Hopefully you can get something that fills you out to 25+ corruption by the end of next week. If you don't then bite the bullet and drop HoD for a little bit. Making this complicated for no reason.
tacit steppe
I’m not saying you’re wrong, I’m saying you’re overthinking it because whatever content you’re doing where you don’t already have a maxed out cloak, isn’t gonna be any more or less easier because of that. Like you can’t tell me you’re progging on M Nzoth on that char with a cloak that’s not even maxed, so does it really matter than you might do 150 less dps 
main tendon
Hey guys sorry to interrupt the discussion, but during vendetta window should i just mutilate and envenom or i should as well renue garrote (6s) and rupture (7s) when comes to the time
white wyvern
Always keep bleeds up.
tacit steppe
Refresh
white wyvern
Try to have them up so you won't have to refresh during TB. That being said still TB on CD.
crimson palm
What do you define as a maxed cloak?
tacit steppe
?????
echo heath
max cloak would be rank 15 and +62 corruption resist
crimson palm
Yeah and what's the correlation between maxing corruption resistance and progressing M n'zoth?
echo heath
well thats a silly question, the more resistance you have the more corruption you can run, the more corruption you can run = more damage
more damage= boss dies faster
crimson palm
That's wrong
tacit steppe
I can’t anymore lmao
echo heath
ok explain why thats wrong
lone junco
I smell something stupid going on.
crimson palm
Because most of the good corruptions are low corruption stat
rigid mango
Since I say so, you can quit the convo now.
tacit steppe
@lone junco u are correct
echo heath
thank you for making my point
main tendon
@white wyvern when i am not in vendetta, should i use envenom at 4/5 cp even if tha means i would be losing the Elaborate planning window, or i just use envenom at 3 to make use of Elaborate planning?
serene sierra
What is a good number for mythic plus sims? anyone got some pumping numbers?
white wyvern
@main tendon Always Env at 4+ CP. Min/Maxing EP is not really worth.
main tendon
ty
lone junco
Anyone got alpha thoughts?
tacit steppe
I wish Guy was over here for that convo 
rigid mango
if I wasn't mid game you'd all be eating it
tacit steppe
Assassination is now Sub in Alpha 
lone junco
Saw snd. Wod sin was pretty lackluster wasn't it? Or was it king st
echo heath
i just read the start of that conversation, wish i had stayed out of it now
rigid mango
Good that you feel like you need to comment on it again.
rigid mango
Pretty fucking horrendous, and no.
tacit steppe
Yikes
echo heath
well i hope tomorrow is a better day and you also get an alpha invite, i hope we all do so we can give good feedback
i dont know about having slice n dice back as sin
tacit steppe
Zine too busy climbing ladders for alpha 
lone junco
People actually running exang on nzoth? Seems like it will line up on big tendies a lot.
rigid mango
I do.
lone junco
Vision minor helping with that alignment?
rigid mango
Just bec I'm bored more than anything
Nah I don't play vop minor anymore
And my gearset for it isn't good either, I just always play exsang now
I think TB's generally better, unless you have a high haste set
lone junco
Yeah. I liked exang in legion even though it wasn't my top sim. But 55% crit at that time was nice
100% crit with buffs made mut env chains fun.
fathom swift
How much haste is "high" haste?
rigid mango
I just always use it for bost runs and now I'm just kinda bored of TB.
Enough to make it sim better, is the simple answer to that.
fathom swift
Ya but like 2 or 3 expedient pieces or what roughly
rigid mango
Something around there, yeah.
Which I personally, don't have.
But I still use it bec it's fun or whatnot.
fathom swift
I got a galecallers from weekly chest and want to try it 🙂
rigid mango
If it sims better, go ham famalam
lone junco
Gc led me to stand in fire lol
fathom swift
Even if it doesnt sounds more fun to play on farm
lone junco
Cloak time.
tacit steppe
I got a m wrath trink and have a socketed vita just wish I had the azerite for exang
rigid mango
Coral still better.
tacit steppe
Yea but fuck that noise
lone junco
Doesn't exang just need 1x ss
tacit steppe
Didn’t play EP
fathom swift
With haste proc trinkets you still need to time exsang within the proc window right
rigid mango
Not proc ones, no
lone junco
I wouldn't sit on it.
rigid mango
You don't sit on shit, really
fathom swift
I was under the impression it snapshotted haste
lone junco
It does. But you can't delay and miss out on a cast.
Hay nothings changed since legion.
fathom swift
I never played it in legion
fathom swift
Same only kj and avatar
rigid mango
Didn't play assa in uldir either so
lone junco
It was best in legion because bota gave +100% bleed duration for like 8 sec. And with NS vanish rupture you could exang and fit the entire rupture in a single bota with exang.
And vendetta was down to 45s and lines up every time.
And rupture mattered.
rigid mango
What a time to be alive
lone junco
Would be the equivalent of 100k rupture ticks right now.
fathom swift
So you're saying dont delay exsang right
rigid mango
Yip
fathom swift
But if you use on cd it doesnt line up with subsequent vanishes
And its not what i see when i look at logs of people using exsang
rigid mango
I align every 3rd to vend, but idk if that's correct or not. Playing entirely off of feelies rn.
or rather, I align vend to it.
fathom swift
Holding vendetta/vanish prob isnt the end of the world as long as you dont lose total casts i guess
rigid mango
Yep.
lone junco
👍
plucky briar
Does mastery affect gushing wound?
strange python
Its Shadow damage, so no
fathom swift
It has a whitelist anyway
plucky briar
interesting, i didn't know it's shadow
rigid mango
No mastery effect (afaik) affects outside non-class/spec specific abilities, afaik. I'd assume the same goes for fire/frost/arcane damage etc. Good rule of thumb anyways.
fleet whale
there was a time where enhance mastery did scale with a lot of stuff
but those days are over
fossil zodiac
Hi guys, new to the channel here. just picked up a crit/mastery 460 ring with tier 3 tentacle. I would lose 6% vers and 3% haste from using it. is the tier 3 tentacle still worth the loss of stats?
devout salmon
Twilight Dev worth it in Visions? I find myself not pulling more than 1 or 2 groups at a time because SSx3 just melts them quicker than large aoe pulls anyways. Other options are just like vers procs and % more from stats
fossil zodiac
I am not. No streamer here 🙂 I forgot to menion it would be for PVP only. I just started simming yesterday and I'm not sure if sims would give accurate represenation of arenas
fossil zodiac
ahh, ty!
edgy scaffold
hello fellow rogues just a quick question... Assass funner to play then sub wanting to start a rogue. r they hard to master
fleet whale
Not really
honest vessel
in the current state i'd say sin is more fun than sub
its pretty hard to 'master' depending on your definition
but you can definitely pick most of it up pretty quick
edgy scaffold
thanks @honest vessel well said. was thinking Sin or Havoc
honest vessel
both fun, havoc is a bit easier to play and to gear for different types of content
both a good choice
rocky ruin
What did you guys think about that what a player wrote in alpha about assa
Its the latest post
TL:DR
Mutilate Energy cost reduce
Blindside baseline and improved blindside talent
EP damage reduce
Something change at vigor vs DS/MoD
faint harness
I think he had some great points
Master poisoner should be a pvp talent
Blindside has to be significantly buffed
Dunno about the mutilate cost
faint harness
As far as i can remember its been 55 energy
Reduced by passives
But why would anyone pick master poisoner
For instance
In pve
More deadly poison dmg?
Its very bad
rocky ruin
Haha thats true but like he wrote EP should be dmg reduced but idk how blindside could still work
faint harness
Blindside can increase the pace of the class
With the free procs
But its not competitive dmg wise
Cus, why is there basically a 10% dmg increase on first row
Nothing thats not broken will ever compete
I disagree on snd being a pointless ability
rocky ruin
Or blindside could reduce the energy cost of mutilate after a ambush
faint harness
If anything, snd can increase master poisoner worth
More AAs more passive poison dmg
dark crag
He thinks snd adds too much of a maintenance
rocky ruin
In terms against the shiv window
faint harness
Its such a long duration, but yea havent played with it
dark crag
For sub and outlaw snd adds more beside pure attackspeed and poisonprocs
faint harness
Well i forget how the energy proc works for sin
Is it bleed ticks on poison
Or poison ticks on bleed
faint harness
Ye
I definitely agree with hidden blades point, it has some niche uses, but having echoing blades would be cool
While on the topic of azerite traits, a weaker shrouded suffocation could replace master poisoner or something
Or shrouded on last row instead of hidden blades
vestal wren
snd is by default rather boring
idk if i would say it adds a lot to any of the specs
but same goes with poisons that are now also on all 3 specs
undone scroll
there a list for best trinkets for ST?
steep obsidian
mutilate hasn't really had snd since like mop right?
in wod you pressed it once per fight if you did it right
topaz axle
rocky ruin
Maybe Venom Rush could take a change too
steep obsidian
im pretty sure you pressed it once in wod and it was refereshed by a passive talent
although I guess i played combat or sub for most of that expac so maybe my memory isnt 100% accurate
snd on sub was a little bit more interesting because it would snapshot with your mastery
i dont think its an interesting button though for any spec
zinc zealot
ive been testing out this new build for mythic+ unguent caress but on sims it recommends i equip the weapon in mainhand and dagger in offhand (only have 1 unguent caress) anyone know why this is?
rocky ruin
Mutilate works only with both daggers
raw shadow
wow thats crazy
zinc zealot
ye thats fine, u dont use mutilate in aoe rotation it shouldnt change the sim at all
drifting cloud
its higher ilvl than your dagger?
and if theyre the same ilvl then it doesnt matter anyways
zinc zealot
yeah its same ilvl thats why i was confused
u can check out the sim here if u want https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/pvDAF8LmuYeqMiKkBAvUYV
lone junco
Lash of the void garrote into fok spam. Neat.
scarlet sequoia
@zinc zealot prolly cus main hand attacks tend to hit more often than off hand
drifting light
Hi. Do you guys experience bugs with Coral on mythic ilgynoth?
woven bane
wasnt there a pin about the VoP build recently? did they remove it?
arctic walrus
For outlaw sure
woven bane
oh thougt it was for assa
dim yacht
pvp question. what the fuck do i do against demon hunters in any situation
they dodge half of my shit, the half they dont dodge they leech back
if i get even close to killing them they leap up into the air and bomb me
dim yacht
oh duh, thanks
fresh flint
Hey guys, i was talking to a guildie rogue the other day who mentioned to have heard somewhere of reaching a cap od 25% haste and then dump it all on crit if i remember, allthough warcraftlogs show us a variety of statweights which obviously have to do with their personal gear we cant immediatly figure out where they get those differences from.
Which would you say affects your statweights the most?
shrewd night
Sim yourself through top gear, dont listen to guildies who think they know their shit.
fresh flint
Oh i know my statweights are the right ones, just wanted to see how one could run with more crit then haste as i am currently simming better with rounded up ofc 30% haste and 29% crit
faint harness
sounds like something he has gotten from ask Mr Robot
rigid mango
Idk about knowing ur statweights are correct when you're saying statements like these
faint harness
stat weights are extremely volatile
rigid mango
There's 0 magical % in any of the stats, you literally just go to top gear on raidbots and let it figure it out
faint harness
and its better to sim top gear
fresh flint
Let me rephrase, i simmed my top gear for very specific fights and i am using the best possible result really
rigid mango
Stat weighrs should only be used to try to figure out why certain things are the way they are, not actually for gearing
fresh flint
Maybe this qualifies as a theorycrafting question, as i just want to understand why someone elses statweights are different then mine really, thanks anyways guys
fresh flint
Not if you want to compare them to other logs to find out the difference between someone elses statweights
rigid mango
Wdym
shrewd night
How do you even sim for 'specific' fights. No such thing exists.
fresh flint
you guys are getting stuck on the details too much guys.
Nvm, theorycrafting anyways
rigid mango
No you seem like you're 100% going to be confusing yourself with the data you're getting
And I'm just gonna say it sounds like an awful idea, that's all
strange python
well you can sim for fights where coral is awkward to use
rigid mango
I've yet to sim a specific fight this tier, and last tier it was literally only orgo.
strange python
or for short fights
fresh flint
I mimicked fight lengths to suit the logs i was looking at, but never changed any of my gear as i just wanted to see if it would make a difference
rigid mango
The apl does funky stuff when you change that though
strange python
thats bad tho due to sims having variable length
fresh flint
I sim myself normally aswell suiting my fightlengths as obviously my group does things differently
fresh flint
Fair enough, thanks for the advice
jolly atlas
Someone in my pug yesterday told me about the "garrote" spec. I've never heard about it and can't find any videos about it. Can somebody give me a tl:dr ?
rigid mango
You mean running several shrouded suffocation traits?
jolly atlas
I think thats it? He said "spec" so I also assumed another talent?
rigid mango
Subterfuge? but everyone should be running that give or take w/o SS traits anyways
jolly atlas
I've been running master assassin as I dont have any good way of forcing out crits (no ashvanes)
rigid mango
Ah then ye.
blissful crown
what poison should I use? deadly poision?
In no guide it's mentioned
scarlet sequoia
ah but jesus christ
blissful crown
thanks 🙂
shrewd night
@scarlet sequoia sweet summer child
rigid mango
strange python
anyone got a good write up or sometihng for assa M+?
shrewd night
raz this is where you slide in
tropic ocean
sour glade
So how does exsang snapshotting with haste work? Let's say I ran galecaller and exsang in m+. How do I get the most out of the exsanged bleeds?
sour glade
So I don't need to have the haste buff up before I cast the bleeds? So I can go garrote rupture garrote vendetta, galecaller exsang and i'm good?
On say a boss
shrewd night
no, it updates dynamicly
snapshot hasnt been a thing since
idk
long time ago
for rogues that is
sour glade
Thanks. I've never really used exsang so I wasn't sure if there was some trickery to it
distant lava
it's exsang that snapshots not the bleeds afaik
so you just need to exsang during the buffs yeah
marble hemlock
Exsanguinate snapshots your haste value as you use it, meaning that even if you lose your overwhelming power/bloodlust/galecallers buff after using it, the exsanguinated dots will still tick as if you had the haste-value you had when you used it
All the rest updates dynamically
sour glade
Nice. Sounds like I might start running exsang over toxic blade in my M+ build.
I'm really bad at using TB on CD on trash anyway because I'm so focused on just AOEing stuff down
crimson palm
@scarlet sequoia did you have any pulls on n'zoth with clf? I'm looking into setup atm as we start progress on tuesday
faint harness
prob not the best essence for nzoth, ive used it on 2 kills ish
scarlet sequoia
no i go blood for last 2
faint harness
if you really want to go CLF, it seems like the way to use it is holding it until 1st vuln phase
crimson palm
I'll probably use vendettas on Psychus 1 at 2:00ish and 5-00ish on boss
It'll overlap with both CLFs
Bote would be good since there'll be some inbetween casts on tentacles
spring bane
anyone having issues with TD not proccing a whole lot in dungeons as sin rogue? how does everyone compete with damage?
woven bane
is the VoP assa build a good choice or only in certain situations?
storm perch
guess with something like 3 np - its good
but in certain situations
o my, i stopped Shiennar from typing
shrewd night
No, my cat had filled the box with 0's
storm perch
shadowblades just give more detailed answers)))
how to be "good" assa on Hivemind, when you got 3 dh, 2 hunters and 1 fire mage at your raid?
myth ofc
storm perch
ignore bees?) trash?
storm perch
just can't get pass 89k dps, even with t4 td...
strange python
3x eb + blood
scarlet sequoia
dunno if playing that shit is the move
static glacier
opinions about SnD returning?
personally idk how it's going to feel to have an extra finisher to ramp before bursting
strange python
sucks
static glacier
like I'd understand if it had gameplay implications like where it gives sub more energy and combo points, for sin it doesn't really do anything as impactful.
lean marten
i can imagine with MA it wouldn't be hard to Mut->SnD->Mut->Rup
static glacier
difficulty isn't the issue at all, it's like over 30 sec duration
can't they make it do anything for gameplay?
static glacier
it also funnels more power budget into single target
summer tapir
I think I am clouded by nostalgia here but I am excited for SnD. I agree with your point about it not having an impactful gameplay implication but I just love the idea of SnD as a buff
static glacier
I remember SnD, it was alright but back when I played rogue when snd was out (MoP) we had runes
to cover the QoL issues it had
namely if you're not fighting a raidboss, if stuff dies quickly, it feels aweful to refresh
glyphs*
not runes lol
deadly momentum iirc
I also remember for MoP combat had rupture but didn't use it :l
lean marten
ithought u put 1 rup and evisc would refresh it
dont remember
but it seems like nothing but a boon
u dont have to use it in short combat scenarios
lean marten
wasnt that a lvling glyph
sour glade
I like SnD returning. It's a once every 36 second buff that will be worth using I'm sure. And while it won't give more energy or combos like for sub it'll still increase single target damage.
summer tapir
Oh wow I forgot about Recuperate!
strange python
its just another button they added back for the sake of adding more buttons
static glacier
my point is, is that neccesairily a good thing Josh?
lean marten
how is it a bad thing lol
static glacier
POWER BUDGET
lean marten
its 100% a good thing
strange python
how is it a good thing
summer tapir
Also, with Toxic Blade being baseline and the ability to take Alacrity maybe the on-hit application of poison damage could make for a nice build?
static glacier
they balance us around it
strange python
if you have to keep up more things
lean marten
just rupt too hard for u?
static glacier
so if we didn't have SnD we would have the damage elsewhere
strange python
how is that an argument
sour glade
I typically enjoy having more stuff I have to do
static glacier
it's not hard, just pointless
strange python
when your only argument is "hurr its good u bad"Q
static glacier
I don't mind them adding spells, blindside would have been much better than SnD
lean marten
power budget isn't a thing that gives blizz way too much credit
static glacier
atleast then I have to watch for a proc
sour glade
Not saying it's automatically a good thing, but I personally like to have more stuff I have to manage to perform well.
static glacier
it is, if with SnD we magically do 12% more dmg relative to all classes than we do when balanced
they will nerf us
strange python
you're delusional if you think snd back means a net buff
static glacier
it's not a buff, it aught to be power neutral
lmao pressing snd instead of env every 30 seconds means performing well?
summer tapir
depruning isn't about buffs and nerfs. It is about bringing back options people had
lean marten
by that logic everyone should just autoattack becuase all our abilities and classes are normalized
static glacier
not at all, envenom for example is an interesting spell
strange python
its not an option if you have to use it
static glacier
rewards pooling, rewards funneling envs into TB window
summer tapir
There are talent options that aren't useful now that could become useful
static glacier
the spell has nuance, it's simple yet allows for better results with better play, what does snd do?
summer tapir
with having SnD and Toxic Blade baseline
static glacier
I like depruning as an idea
for sure
but bring back spells that actually added complexity to a rotation
or maybe bring back snapshotting 
faint harness
nothing adds complexity to it
lean marten
refreshes SnD with mob at 1% hp, the rotation just isn't complex!
theres a decision there
summer tapir
complexity isn't the same as depth
static glacier
lmao
sturdy python
summer tapir
complexity isn't the main goal here
static glacier
you can still make that exact same fuckup with rupture
like cmon guys, our rotation isn't exactly difficult
lean marten
its literally a target independant rupture
faint harness
have you mastered it
static glacier
the rotation? yes, encounters - no way
faint harness
theres never been anything complex about a wow spec, its only in tandem with boss mechanics it becomes more difficult to pull off
static glacier
performing a rotation in a vacuum isn't hard, doing it in a live situation is what's difficult, and that's tied more to encounters being increasingly complex while rotations have been getting simpler since mop
some specs are / were difficult
feral in legion for example wasn't super easy to play perfect, even on a dummy
faint harness
yea maybe 10 years ago when you were less of a veteran
static glacier
since you litterally didn't have enough resources in the first patch to maintain rip / rake and SR, you had to plan SR downtime
lean marten
if you think our power budget is normalized why does it matter if you spend that 5cp on envenom other than SnD would u rather just Mut Env all the time?
faint harness
SnD is a choice you have to make, and you have to consider it when pooling/preparing for the TB window, it adds something. You might not like it
static glacier
becaue env rewards good play more than SnD
and doesn't mean oh wait I have to spend another 2 globals before doing damage
to a mob
:l
this is just my opinion, you're all welcome to yours aswell
who knows, maybe I'll love SnD and i've got reverse rose tinted glasses
faint harness
voice an opinion, get a discussion
not like i feel anything special for SnD, i just think ur blanket "adds nothing" statement is false
static glacier
to be fair now I consider it, it's something else you have to avoid using in TB / Vendetta if possible
so in that way it does add complexity, my bad. I was short sighted
faint harness
ur not alone with that opinion tho
just rn maybe
plenty of people in here thinks SnD can pack it up and leave again
drowsy chasm
maybe because SnD lacks interaction like allowing a different use of an ability or another ability
faint harness
its interaction is with poison dmg
i suppose
but yea nothing special. But thats a luxury to have spells always do something extraordinary
drowsy chasm
I agree it adds a layer of planning which i like but lacks to add a different feel i suppose
will have to play to see how it feels
lean marten
who knows it could play like garbage but tahts why we need alpha testers to give feedback
but im optimistic
considering blizzs track record i probably shouldn't be tho lol
static glacier
like why not add kingsbane
faint harness
hopefully the covenant abilities will fill that hole
lean marten
specs in legion were designed with artifact abilities baseline. how hard was it to just add them baseline moving to bfa and add to that
nope just rip core concepts and yolo azerite
apes
faint harness
like uh getting a bad kyrian covenant CP proc
the nightmare if its like 3, gotta hope mutilate wont proc
crit*
lean marten
or force it with Poison knife/Shiv could have some nuance
static glacier
I actually hate how they keep removing the new system for each expac
once you get used to em
faint harness
i actually dont, at least not now with BFA
imagine having to go through yet another expansion with this system
static glacier
bfa was a shitshow through and through
static glacier
I don't mind it at all, I like shrouded suff
strange python
idk how that will turn out
lean marten
yeah but its becuase of essences and azerite not the core spec
static glacier
EB could just be aoe buff to fan or poison dot
faint harness
lucid definitely helps too
lean marten
take out azerite and essences and the spec would be dooky
like pretty much every spec
but wait they realized that for hpally glimmer and thats it
faint harness
ret also got another trait
as talent
cant remember the name, the AW explosion on holy power usage
lean marten
would be dope if SS was baked into the subt garrote bonus
lean marten
well yeah but just incorporating azerite type stuffs into Slands
strange python
fuck the dmg we need the extra cp
lean marten
that help the spec work
lean marten
they don't have to reinvent the wheel every expac
azerite adn essences have some interesting mechanics that are basically getting trashed
faint harness
for the game to stay fresh they need to change some things tho
strange python
imagine if they kept the good stuff from each expansion
what a great game this would be
lean marten
i agree but at the same time ppl are spamming frostbolt in classic
if it aint broke dont fix it
faint harness
maybe they are trying to find a good system?
waxen socket
Been a while trying then KEK
faint harness
wdym, its been the same old until legion
tight ridge
at what point does master assasin sim more? im not even using shrouded and it's still worse
faint harness
i dont think theres a specific point
lean marten
depends on ur azerites and corruptions mostly
static glacier
thing is they don't approach them with the idea that if it's good we'll keep it
they're like THIS IS FOR ONE EXPAC ONLY
waxen socket
u forgot the "haha xd"
tight ridge
so i can just stick with the sim if it says it's better right? some abilitys don't sim right sometimes so im just making sure
tight ridge
i never played MA so i wouldn't know which i like better
but i stick to that then, thanks
faint harness
@static glacier the AP grind of Legion wasnt sustainable
even if the weapons themselves were cool
they changed to a more lenient AP grind in BFA but the system wasnt cool
lean marten
artifact power and azerite power are the same thing tho
faint harness
2 iterations both with their faults
lean marten
the tryhards spend hours in maw like they're spending hrs in islands
faint harness
before Legion you got the occasional quest for a legendary and a new talent row for the new expansion
and tier sets
thats it
so even if i dislike how we get weaker by each expansion release, at least its more interesting than yet another row of completely unbalanced talents
tight ridge
oh i have one more question.. i don't really use stat weight sims but can i use them to decide my buffood? or does it not matter that much
sinful island
What stats do we aim for as assa for ST? Just so I know what to include in sims
tight ridge
thanks
lean marten
dont use pawn
tight ridge
im not
static glacier
@faint harness the ap system doesn't need to be as grindy, they could have just hardcapped it at a low level
question, a bit general - which dps is least reliant on cooldowns? does fine damage with / without
faint harness
well you could play a stacked BM hunter and always have cds
sub rogue has frequent cds
tight ridge
Demo lock has high cd uptime aswell
faint harness
Basically all the out of favour specs, name of the game is burst
static glacier
it usually ends up being so late expac
faint harness
Survival hunter can keep their cd up whole fights
peak quiver
hey guys, first time jumping into any class server. But ive been struggling to parse and dps well in heroic progression for a while and just not understanding what im doing wrong after looking at logs.
sorry if this is abrupt, didnt know how to approach or where to start
peak quiver
gotcha one moment
static glacier
his uptimes are also superior
peak quiver
we only did xanesh last night
patent topaz
your azerite traits are really bad looking at shadhar
peak quiver
tbh ive been seeing the lack of casts, I just dont know how to cast more. Ive been casting envenom only at 5 combo after toxic blade as my fifth combo point
static glacier
wait
patent topaz
fok in the opener?
static glacier
you do know you cast env with 4 too
patent topaz
you play MA but never vanish
static glacier
unless you're going to be able to use garrote for 5th
drifting cloud
theres a guide in the pins
peak quiver
yes
patent topaz
never do that
you can finish at 4 as Mo mentioned
you will mutilate at 2/3 combo points. If you get 4 you envenom
you can even overcap using toxic blade
static glacier
basically envenom to 4-5, TB on cd, regardless of CP
patent topaz
0 envenoms in TB
static glacier
only major play around TB is try to save energy / CP to spam atleast 2 envenoms inside of it, 3 if you're a boi
patent topaz
you also seem to be refreshing garrote too often
static glacier
afenar's WA can help with knowing when to refresh garrote
patent topaz
id advise to read up on basics because just looking at shadhar you are playing very wrong
on top of having bad azerite traits
peak quiver
understood. also if i cast toxic blade off of cd, do i have to cast envenom and nothing else?
and gotcha ill look back at traits
torpid jewel
you have tri-SS azerite pieces.. you really need to run subterfuge
patent topaz
ideally you would want at least 2 envenoms inside a toxic blade debuff
you can refresh bleeds if you have to but mostly you can plan around that
static glacier
@peak quiver the simplest way I can explain it is, TB buffs your nature damage, envenom is pure nature damage, poison procs from hitting are nature damage
so you want to fit as many hits / envenoms into your TB debuff window as possible
so generally you TB on cd but if you see it coming in like 4-5 secs maybe try to pool energy / CPs to TB > envenom > Mut Mut > env etc
sit on a dummy and just practise pooling for TB if you need to get used to it buddy
peak quiver
absolutely. yeah ill get to that. I really appreciate it guys. This really helped a lot.
pliant heron
it also looks like you're missing enchants
although to be fair so is half your raid
peak quiver
yeah most people in the raid are fairly still pretty new to the game
lean marten
Sin is all about the opener and TB rotations, rest is mostly keeping bleeds on
rigid mango
I'll play devil's advocate here and say this; pooling is nearly irrelevant and so is perfecting TB windows.
With all the haste and procs we have rn you can basically not think about it at all
Because the diff between optimal play and just clicking on cd is minimal
lean marten
for MA you should open like this Mut->Rupt->Mut->Garrote->Vend->(If CLF use here)->TB->(If BotE use here)->Vanish->Envenom
rigid mango
And people highly overrate the diff of the two.
lean marten
rest is just mainting dots and don't reapply bleeds in TB
rigid mango
And u should be using clf before vend :)
rancid bobcat
:^)
rigid mango
Just follow the opener shit that I posted in pins
Ah nvm it's my pin but ronkles posted it
👀
peak quiver
gotcha!
lean marten
opener pins aren't that intuitive and should be organized by MA/Subt imo. not very noob friendly
rigid mango
There's not an opener for subt because I've been too lazy
And it's a simple thing for me to answer in here
Feel free to give me feedback on them if u want but avoid giving people incorrect info thanks 😄
fading wigeon
Hey zine when do you CLF in subt opener. I have been using subt opener from ravenhold.
fading wigeon
Ah ok thank you
orchid solstice
Hey guys, starting Nzoth prog, only had 5-6 pulls so far but wondering where people recommend using Vend
Going in first psycus atm
rigid mango
Are u using on psychus?
orchid solstice
I’ve been trying all over atm, guild hasn’t planned any cd’s yet as only just got there end of last night
Where is optimal for assa as I’m speaking with the guild later about the boss so can recommend timings
rigid mango
It's realky good on psychus