like, any number of people that should run it for high uptime?
#assassination
crimson palm
tranquil stirrup
!stats
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination Stat weights:
Single target: haste > crit > mastery > vers
Multi target: crit > vers => mastery > haste
Note: Simming will always result in more accurate results.
tropic ocean
@quasi pewter yeah it is due to the nature of proc base + 3 np
so while it might be lower median compared to dd it has a higher max as well
which then gets even further influenced on fights like drest or nzoth or any fight with dmg amplification
quasi pewter
with exsang or what
tropic ocean
but then again not sure how super accurate sim is cuz you know just like with tents u'll have that pull where u proc vision 239020 times
nah with tb
no matter how much I try not getting exsang to sim even equal on fights 5min or above
tropic ocean
with 3 np vision major and expedients?
tropic ocean
for me its 93k max on standard build and 97k max on 3 ss 3 np with 3 expedient
but yeah the max output should be a lot higher idk if raidbots has a cap for that in iterations
but you can see it kinda from logs
e.g.
50% uptime with rng procs
quasi pewter
i mean sure but why ss
tropic ocean
I guess due to it having higher dps than dd
quasi pewter
maybe ur standard build is just not very good
tropic ocean
like as in the dps during the timeframe of vendetta
tropic ocean
im not sure why its always told ss is bad for st - im not as in depth into raid bots to 100% accurately prove it but you can see it pretty much from wcl if you remove the corruption stuff
quasi pewter
i dont think anyone that knows their shit ever said ss is bad for st
it just hasnt been better than dd for a long time
tropic ocean
e.g. garrote doing 20k dps with 3 ss build
quasi pewter
and so there was no reason to run it in st
quasi pewter
and ur garrote does 0 damage without ss ?
tropic ocean
thats where im not so sure
cuz everoyne is just like "sims"
but can you ignore actual logged fights
honest vessel
garrote + dd > garrote + ss
quasi pewter
what logged fights are you talking about
tropic ocean
for example
just not enough sample size cuz too little amount of people playing it
compared to classic dd
quasi pewter
you do realize theyre both running exsang
tropic ocean
yes
quasi pewter
and no vop major
tropic ocean
yes
tropic ocean
yeah shit envenom dmg and no tb
but super competitive dps
and im not talking about the overall dps but dmg done by ability/source
quasi pewter
i mean for some ppl exsang build sims good
tropic ocean
(if you compare e.g. tb build envenom avg vs 3 ss build)
quasi pewter
that doesnt mean its actually better than a good dd build
tropic ocean
difference is very small in some logs non existent
quasi pewter
i mean idk why you wouldnt trust sims, comparing single logs is impossible with gear differences being so huge
tropic ocean
I just think that you shouldn't 100% rely on something that can be flawed and as we saw over the past patches there were couple of flaws in sim
and there might still be
so im just checking actual logs as well
drifting cloud
and with exsang build you cant just check dmg from source
when you can "snapshot"
like the first log is running plumage
quasi pewter
exsang apl is actually scuffed but not to that extent
and also as i said
it already sims good for some people
that doesnt mean its better overall
just that they may have very good gear for it
e.g. alot of expedient
drifting cloud
475 gcb 
quasi pewter
just like i propably have very good gear for vop major/3np build with my honed mind
drifting cloud
but yeah its such small difference overall
quasi pewter
that doesnt mean vop major is better for every1
drifting cloud
like if it was destroying we would know and it would be meta
quasi pewter
altho it might be now with the new update
drifting cloud
but its comparable enough that people run it
tropic ocean
and thats not what I was saying
LyshmoToday at 8:32 PM
what am i looking for on raid azerite in terms of single target? 3 x Double Dose 3x Heart ?
AusgelebtToday at 8:33 PM
whatever you can get and sims best out of those of your options
theres no "bis" unless you have access to high rated pvp azerite and 12/12M
🙂
LyshmoToday at 8:34 PM
i know, i will sim but just thought there is general direction to aim for
this where it started
but when you can freely choose corruptions/azerite or whatever
there will be 1 best combination
so very theoretical basically
tropic ocean
i'll try to simplify
lets say you can put whatever items you want
leave out corruption cuz mind flay/stars will be the highest potential dps one due to rng
patent topaz
for my gear standard build is 2k higher than vop major atm
tropic ocean
well or let me rephrase it
maybe not on a 10min patchwerk or w/e
but looking at current raid
on shadhar for example
nzoth too if you can use your cds freely
wrathion too probably and maut if you can live through it
quasi pewter
eager solstice
Out of all of the WAs available does anyone who’s been playing for a while have a pref?
lean marten
!wa
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination WA's for BFA:
https://wago.io/HJUbINlV7 (Mizerok's Group)
https://wago.io/E1EB91OtM (Lokkek's Group)
https://wago.io/SyLUNGD4X (Sovv's Group)
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)
lean marten
Afenar is best imo
ionic hemlock
eh not a fan of any of them, mostly because I use default UI. It ends up just looking awkward
crimson palm
@scarlet sequoia https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/c8yFh8TkJA38igq2QPbaYR could you check this out?
hidden bay
whats there to check?
looks good, azerite u dont have a big selection, corruption wise u are loaded af but its better to go haste build due to low/no rng
try to get raden trinket and u pump big numbers
honest basin
What % of mastery and haste are usually recommended in m+ ? I know haste doesn't have a very high value but you still need some % to be decent on boss fights esp in tyra right ? As for mastery I know it's one of the two best stats alongside crit for m+, but is there a value that is "good" ?
alpine rain
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/kSa298dntHQmkeYPdJ6K4n anyone got advice... my dps sims really low
alpine rain
still 2 weeks away ;_;
hidden bay
gotta work on that!
alpine rain
true true
this is what i got now
still feels extremely low
are there any specific items that would give me a major boost
Or are my stats / corruptions just bad
patent topaz
run 59 corr if you want to
alpine rain
why 59 xD
drifting cloud
79k is not low for rogues
patent topaz
you asked for more damage
drifting cloud
so not sure why youre just parroting that
if you wanna sim more play arms boomie or dh
alpine rain
I mean... dude above was simming at like 90k +
drifting cloud
dude above you is 12/12mythic
honest vessel
84k is fucking insane
patent topaz
I can run regular or vop major with 76k but thats 57 corr and no mythic gear
and no coral
leaden garden
Hey guys. If playing CLF, when in the opener do I pop it? Just before vendetta?
tropic ocean
depending on boss can run more corruption as well
like i run this on wrathion/maut/shadhar e.g.
leaden garden
When in the opener do i pop clf?
patent topaz
also double stars which sims really high
quasi pewter
in farm you can just run 40+ everywhere
slender sandal
What trinkets do you guys run on tyra weeks
quasi pewter
vita segment
honest vessel
@leaden garden you were right, just before vend
crimson palm
@hidden bay I just wanted to see if I got the 3 SS build right
For some padding on heroic 😄
leaden garden
Ty @honest vessel !
chrome forum
Just killed ra-den mythic but logged really shit. We did it like stankkies video so i didnt have to swap on orbs. Anyone got a good video of how you play it without a billion mindflay procs
raven locust
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/a9hKAEsbQYLdXSM6a74fiv -1 less dps to play non-rng Blood major lol
chrome forum
Playing subtrafuge?
raven locust
I am
chrome forum
Sim higher or just prefer?
raven locust
It sims about 400 higher
quasi pewter
sims higher for almost everyone now
chrome forum
Im out of touch but all my corruptions are +crit% ot +crit damage
So ill have to check
The sub opener is like garotte mute garrote?
quasi pewter
openers are in guide
ionic hemlock
seems odd that purification is better than iris?
raven locust
@chrome forum Assuming you dont have SS traits you just press Garrote once
ionic hemlock
err rk2 vs rank3 i mean*
chrome forum
Then what makes it better, sorry i dont understand?
raven locust
Sub opener with no SS is Garrote > Mutx2 > rup
chrome forum
Just the increased garrote damage
raven locust
Yes its just more damage
chrome forum
Oh nice thanks bro
quasi pewter
@ionic hemlock haste isnt very useful in aoe so iris is kinda useless there
ionic hemlock
ah so I need to figure if i need to value the aoe more for fights.
quasi pewter
i would still run iris propably, but dont you have vop or conflict?
ionic hemlock
My ST is pretty meh I think for the small gain I'll just keep using what I got
everything is rank 2 but yeah I have conflict and vision (vop?)
ionic hemlock
I do have that, I am resimming it now.
strange python
can you still spam heroic mechagon for it? that was a fast way
quasi pewter
you can but it has a 30% droprate
so just doing a few m+ is faster
if you get invites that is
and also have a chance at 2 iirc
so theoretically 2 runs for r3 if ur very lucky
also vop will not sim good in aoe
but its bis for m+
ionic hemlock
I feel like my aoe is in a good spot, I am wondering if I can change much to get a bit more st dps for M+
quasi pewter
vision works very well in m+
you can use ur vanish with 2nd vendetta on bosses
and also use ur vendetta/vanish more freely on trash
ionic hemlock
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/9TXstm62BG4yqXgjawdFrG yeah the sims don't like it much on the aoe fights lol
How long are you simming for a single target fight?
quasi pewter
well for me bosses tend to last 2-3 minutes in m+
so you can sim that
idk if it uses vanish correctly though
ionic hemlock
I can try it at 3 and see how it goes, I don't think 5 will be a whole lot different
quasi pewter
vop only works so well because you can save ur vanish for 2nd vendetta
fights over 3 minutes it wont be that good anymore because you will need to hold ur vendetta very long
it might not sim good if the apl doesnt do what i just said
so keep that in mind
you can pretty much trust me on this though
ionic hemlock
yeah, well my ST is awful as a whole, I did 45k.
3xSS 3x EB is great up until about now lol.
ionic hemlock
yeah I got a helm thats nice but HOD and SS share the same ring, which sucks.
unless twist the knife is the dark horse lol
I do enjoy using CT though
spare narwhal
If I have twilight devistation on two different pieces of gear, do their affects stack?
spare narwhal
thanks
potent smelt
Anybody know if the Exsanguinate build is still relevant? was looking for some answers on if it would be a better performer
true nexus
is it weird that just 1 SS is enough to put subterfuge ahead in st for me? i gave it the option for triple ss
quasi pewter
subterfuge is ahead for most people even without ss
true nexus
how does subterfuge play in singletarget?
with vanish and such
you garrote rup garrote every opener/vanish to pandemic it ?
i feel like i'd fuck it up
you garrote rup garrote every opener/vanish to pandemic it ?
dark token
its quite easy and smoother than MA imo
strange python
@potent smelt not for normal killtimes etc.
It's best for super short burst kills in heroic or late Tier mythic though
But that only applies to the very few groups that actually go for that
Other than that, it's pretty rad in visions for the same reason: insane burst with Triple SS
potent smelt
@strange python okay ty for the info so u would recommend just double dose and heart of darkness for my tier 2 and 3 and obviously one nothing personal
strange python
I would recommend you to Sim it in any case
potent smelt
i currently have gibberingdarkheart and tentacle laced
i sim around 70k with the double dose in and not sure with the garrote build
strange python
But yes, generally DD, HoD and one NP is a standard raid Setup.
But really sim it in top Gear
Just select the different traits
potent smelt
okay preciate you
true nexus
i think in my case the sim is so close to regular MA that i wont bother
with learning it properly
cause i'd def do less damage while i learn it
for a 200 theoretical gain
distant lava
only 86% healing reduction, playable 
mighty elm
defo playable
mighty elm
vivid iron
Is VoP major not the play at all for ST?
next solar
got our first mythic Raden kill tonight, tendies only procd 3 times, live by the meme, die by the memne
honest vessel
@vivid iron it can be, if you got lots of NP or other factors, sim yo self as always
honest vessel
yeah its simming higher for me too
i'd do it but blood is kinda a must have for nzoth
vivid iron
i'll give it a run next raid, cheers
dark token
https://i.imgur.com/tdUBx1C.png 10 crit sockets 
red plaza
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/6PG5s1J1rY6o1HYJsAamnz
Same. Gonna try it out on Drest and Ilgy prog tonight
dark token
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/5Ccaw9TH2FWPcPbH8VJE8V vop major popping off for me too
tropic ocean
2+
serene portal
thanks, last question sorry, do i spam it or just use it to keep the dot up?
tropic ocean
Just keep the dot up
tropic ocean
for aoe you usually spam fok
proud salmon
anyone have a good suf profile?
rigid mango
A what?
proud salmon
shadow unit frames
dark barn
thoughts on cannonball runner for keys?
rigid mango
dog in all content
dark barn
bet. Thanks
glacial steppe
what fight length should I use to sim for mythic? default 5mins?
rigid mango
5 min sims are v standard yeah.
It's not often you change your sims to fit the fight
The more you change the kill timers or targets the more mumbo jumbo the APL becomes and the more incoherent your sims will become
glacial steppe
i want to compare standard build vs vision build
fight length obviously matters a lot in terms of vision
rigid mango
Yeah then just rock a 5 min sim
glacial steppe
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/9Zn272GhWMk9z3ZHVSB8Qe hmm, guess its vision time
glacial steppe
do i even want to go sin for nzoth? saw lots of outlaws so not sure yet
rigid mango
Yeah sin is more than fine.
Depends on what your comp requires, more than anything.
If you feel comfy w both, they're both fine just that they fill diff spots.
Sin will do psychus/boss dmg as per usual
Outlaw is better at add-clear and psynapse damage
glacial steppe
not sure what we will need once we hit nzoth, currently sitting at 9/12, but i guess it will be more focus damage cus we have lots of fire mages, hunters and dh's
rigid mango
We don't talk about it fairy
Vop major is the abom of assa
And I will never stoop that low
cobalt pelican
i think if i had equal gear for both specs i'd probably lean to playing outlaw for nzoth
but my outlaw gear is bad and so am i at outlaw and sin still owns so
glacial steppe
it obviously depends if i get double raden weapon
cobalt pelican
yea my poor casual guild can't afford to just ship in the hottest classes though
glacial steppe
cus that shit is way to busted
rigid mango
ofc
glacial steppe
i also have a DH ready to go but i want all kills on one character plus DH is boring
and fuck DH
cobalt pelican
i'm still kinda torn on playing vop minor on that fight or not
i ended up playing it tonight cause it h elped with bashers randomly
like i could use on basher2 and basher before neurons
and still have for both burns but
idk if good or not
glacial steppe
funfact: i switched from boomkin to rogue cus i genuinely started to hate vision after azshara progress
and here i am once again
rigid mango
- the fact that it's also a 13 min fight
so you get like 3(?) extra vend casts
throughout fight
cba doing maths but ye
cobalt pelican
it's really awkward cause to use it on the basher before neurons and have back for burn
it has to be like
my first gcd on the basher
which feels very bad
rigid mango
Idk I didn't ahve any issues
cobalt pelican
i'm still learning kinda so i'm just randomly pressing my buttons
rigid mango
for my very extensive 30 or so pulls
for 1 night
that I was in
Guess I get CE next week mbe
never cared so little about it in my life
glacial steppe
i think ill probably stick with sin for nzoth tho, my outlaw is kinda doomed anyways, no raden weapon since release
rigid mango
Like u just play w/e u pref so u don't 
on prog
glacial steppe
i like both specs so im willing to play whatever we need but im p sure it will be sin
3 more bosses and im finally done with bfa, cant wait tho
glacial steppe
raiding itself is still fun, but everything else is meh, atleast in BFA
proud salmon
how are people playing raden?
dotting all the adds?
feel like i can only keep dots up on raden and one of the dds
subtle tundra
playing subterfuge helps a lot with that
honest vessel
i just dotted the higher prio one and tunneled ra den, unless its void in which case i did the opposite
then i swapped to subt and just garroted everything
leaden garden
If playing MA do i vanish AFTER toxic blade in the opener?
inner sonnet
yes
leaden garden
Cheers
winter gale
Guys, wich spec is more used for Horrific Visions?
scarlet sequoia
assa
scarlet sequoia
3x ss 3x np is the best
winter gale
Ok
scarlet sequoia
and then u play exsanguinate
patent topaz
ez blast with 3 ss 3 np + font. I just do 5 mask with all chests, adds up to around 4500 mementos
winter gale
I have good gear, I just checked Nemco run with worse gear at that momenat than mine is atm
I, up to now, tried only as Outlaw few times and did 4masks. Finished 5 masks on my alt before my main. Feelsbad
obsidian ruin
just play OL end 5 masks with 3 orbs
vast forum
assa is way better
lean marten
sin can demolish every elite in <10 seconds and thrall in like 30s
vast forum
also has far better self sustain with leeching poison
unless outlaw rolls leech
but that's rng
patent topaz
244k on rexxar with archive proc 
winter gale
Yes, thats what I saw from videos. Much better on Elites
lean marten
outlaw might be better for full mob clear cleave farm runs im not sure
but not 5 masks
patent topaz
I cant be arsed with full clearing, visions take fucking ages as it is
winter gale
What about Cara mythic progress? Assa for that too?
I will start that on sunday and I think ppl are going assa for that progress?
cosmic prism
how viable is the haste ss build?
cobalt pelican
people have killed every raid boss with it, so it's probably fine
crimson palm
how viable is the haste ss build?
@cosmic prism It's mega fun when you start outbursting the fire mages
cosmic prism
lol seriously? u got a log to it in action?
crimson palm
I tried it in a pug don't think I've logged
Probably raz has some logs
He's running it
tropic ocean
@vast forum dont need leech with that 2% hp food invincible basically
@winter gale yeah you basically just play st and do boss dmg/prio dmg on tentacle and cyst shit on wall
cant compete overall but who cares
winter gale
I get it, care about kill only tbh. Later I can always finetune it 😄
vast forum
cheat death kinda useless anyway
tropic ocean
@winter gale what I can advise you is get a macro to focus a target and set a keybind to interact with focus target on keybind with mouseover
for gate usage
winter gale
Yes, that I saw on Stankies video
tropic ocean
thats basically all imo hardest part is until everyone understands to not immune and not gangbang with mind bombs
rest is pretty easy
fleet anchor
Keep in mind, you can swap specs in HVs. Not locked in like M+
So Outlaw vs. Assassination is really not that clear cut. I use both. 😛
Not locked into gear either.
strange python
@cosmic prism this only shows top10 logs for each boss, for more you gotta go into their rankings directly: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/24#class=Rogue&spec=Assassination&search=abilities.200806
fleet anchor
I’ve talked about it in the past but unless you specifically need the burst in a tiny window. I’m not sure why Exsanguinate would be used with SS.
The only reason people used Exsang with SS in Uldir was Haste snapshotting with Galecallers
Otherwise Exsang has no particular interaction with SS
strange python
to pack as much burst into a small window i guess yes
same as using plumage/medallion with it
and deeper
fleet anchor
It isn’t a specific DPS increase though. FWIW
In essence all Exsang does is give you more unbuffed dot time
So if SS is expiring before the target would have died normally it doesn’t have a lot of purpose. But I could see it for extremely short windows I guess.
quick ingot
!stats
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination Stat weights:
Single target: haste > crit > mastery > vers
Multi target: crit > vers => mastery > haste
Note: Simming will always result in more accurate results.
strange python
but youd have more of your dots inside the blood window or not
so you do everything to make that tiny window better
fleet anchor
Well you are also giving up TB damage to NP and poisons
And probably an Envenom or two
Exsang really doesn’t have a ton of value unless the window is extremely small. It also can work against a lot of the haste procs we have right now since it snapshots. Unless you proc immediately.
In Uldir everyone was running Galecallers with SS and then using Exsang to effectively get the Galecallers buff over twice the normal duration.
That was the main purpose of Exsang in that application.
Because of the funky Haste snapshotting
fleet anchor
It does. But none of those logs are using anything that would abuse that fact that I can see.
The snapshotting can work both ways.
scarlet sequoia
@cosmic prism did 300 something k burst on xanesh yday
fleet anchor
E.g. if you get a vita proc after using Exsang it has no value.
vast forum
we call that "inting" where i'm from
@scarlet sequoia you don't use any NP in your SS build?
scarlet sequoia
neh
vast forum
for me, NP sims higher than BBI on gorak's
fleet anchor
@strange python yikes!
scarlet sequoia
well i only have 27% crit
vast forum
oh
strange python
thats from the only gcb+exsang log i could find
vast forum
yea you're the haste god i guess 😄
fleet anchor
Someone should probably tell him that doesn’t do what he thinks it does. 😄
scarlet sequoia
42% haste amp 🙂
distant lava
I have a 475 gcb on dh I could give you 
fleet anchor
Granted. Exsang behavior isn’t exactly intuitive. lol
distant lava
inc blood + gcb + fel barrage dream
fleet anchor
I mean if you are going all in on SS and Exsang probably.
vast forum
not sure if exsg apl is fully optimized for it, could do a gear compare i guess
scarlet sequoia
let me sim
fleet anchor
Otherwise I kinda suspect SS/TB is still better.
vast forum
i'm thinking font+coral might just be better
scarlet sequoia
u definitely want vita
strange python
doesnt the exsang apl use it wrong atm
scarlet sequoia
cobalt pelican
ss is hot
vast forum
you sure about that raz? 😄
scarlet sequoia
galecaller shit
cobalt pelican
i wanted to make coral font ss work but as soon as i started touching font coral at all the entire thing broke and i cried
and now we have glorious VITA
vast forum
font coral exsg ss apl seems hard to handle
fleet anchor
Font Coral is fucking terrible.
vast forum
maybe font+galecaller?
fleet anchor
I hate everything about it hahah
strange python
font in 2020
cobalt pelican
i still play my 435 font ok
it has a SOCKET
my 475 vita also got yoinked from my which was a very sad day
fleet anchor
I could look at the Exsang APL again. I was meaning to clean it up a while ago to make it more flexible. But I’m not sure it will math out anyway.
vast forum
i'm just happy exsg is gonna see playtime again, i hated switching from it to TB
fleet anchor
But I still think TB is probably better even with SS now.
crimson palm
You do use exsang after applying all the buffs rights?
fleet anchor
Unless you purposefully are catching your Vita procs it seems questionable to use Vita and Exsang together.
vast forum
exactly why i wanna use font+coral or font+gcb 😄
they can overlap nicely at ~2.20
when vanish is used anyway
cobalt pelican
in raz' freak gear tb is still a loss to exsang if you're forcing 3ss
maybe with some stat rejiggling it'd be better but idk
scarlet sequoia
exsang is better for me by almost 2k dps
fleet anchor
Are you running NP at all? I noticed most of those logs weren’t.
cobalt pelican
almost all his pieces can have np hotswapped in for the hod/bbi and it's still not a gain though
not sure
fleet anchor
Dunno. I guess it’s possible. I haven’t see Exsang pull ahead with SS for me personally in quite a while. But if you’re dropping a lot of poison damage it’s possible for sure.
cobalt pelican
the 2k prolly wouldn't hold on like 3ss 1np2dd or something but idk if that's even a thing
strange python
shouldnt exsang become even better the more vitas you got in your raid
cobalt pelican
his gear really is kinda weird case though like if he gets an op/racing pulse proc early he has like
70k haste
strange python
and less reliant on your own proc
fleet anchor
DD and NP are both pretty aggressively tuned right now. It’s hard to give up on it.
cobalt pelican
so maybe not representative of a normal case
fleet anchor
Yeah but that cuts both ways with Exsang
If you get those procs after you use the ability they do nothing. 😦
strange python
look at the apl i need ss+exsang be better 🙏🏻
scarlet sequoia
my highest simming build is this https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/phpU9oALUBLhT3yjLndWhY
but im not gonna play that
its weird
does not seem good at all
hod seems to pull ahead of np for me cus i have so much haste amp
fleet anchor
Well like I said that doesn’t surprise me really because Exsang doesn’t actually really interact with SS that well.
I am a little surprised Exsang beats TB with that top setup though
Must just be the large overall scaling to bleed damage in general from that much haste
I’ve certainly never seen that many Expedients myself 😄
strange python
How much haste do you have 😮
ornate gazelle
So all the builds sim similarly (within a few hundred dps of each other), which build is the best kind of "all-round" build for varying fight lengths, etc?
Vision?
cobalt pelican
uhh
scarlet sequoia
vision 
cobalt pelican
depends what all builds encompasses
ornate gazelle
Like condensed, vision, blood major and subtlety/master assassin talent. like every combo of those
scarlet sequoia
whichever build allows you to proc 100 tentacles is prolly the best
cobalt pelican
but generally bote/tb/subterfuge is the most consistent across fight lengths and actual real world fights i think
ornate gazelle
should we ignore sims for corruption and just stack as much mind flay as we can haha?
cobalt pelican
for traits it kinda depends
ornate gazelle
like obviously IS sims highest but fuck that
scarlet sequoia
if you want to attempt to get r1 logs then yes
u should stack rng corruption
if you want 0 rng and consistent pulls then u stack % stats
ornate gazelle
but regarding like vision/bote/condensed build and MA/sub
cobalt pelican
if you're doing actual content surely you can just look at the fight you're doing and like
fleet anchor
What Raz said lol
cobalt pelican
wiggle your brain around a bit
i think i've played bote on every mythic encounter though actually
besides xanesh
fleet anchor
If you want a chance at high parses it’s all IS/TA. Because you ain’t getting page one without it. But if you want to be consistent and good on pull to pull, those aren’t always the best.
I also hate BotE but I’m not going to get into that this early in the morning. 😄
cobalt pelican
meh, it's my top simming at this point and the only thing i'd consider playing instead of it might be breath if i was a gamer
but i'm genuinely awful at this game so adding things to look at hurts my eyes
fleet anchor
Breath is so much better on a lot of fights. But it’s definitely harder to use.
I will also never do any solo content without Breath lol
Once you get used to using it optimally, it is ridiculously overpowered.
scarlet sequoia
breath for wqs 
fleet anchor
I will show what percentage of my damage Breath is in HVs some time. 🤣
vast forum
@fleet anchor plz don't tell me you use breath major in visions? 😄
fleet anchor
Yes I do. And it’s broken af lol
vast forum
it seems unnecessary with 3xSS
fleet anchor
Buffed crits can literally one shot half the enemies in HV
Although we are getting to the point with cloak and gear where setup matters very little. Last 5 mask I did I ended at full sanity using zero devices. lol
ornate gazelle
when running subtlety without SS, when do we vanish-garrote around vendetta?
during vendetta or before?
fleet anchor
You Vanish Garrote whenever you can get max duration in the pandemic window
vagrant tapir
Why do I keep seeing sims/logs with Subt but no SS traits
fleet anchor
So it depends a little bit on how your previous Garrote lines up
Because Subterfuge is outscaling MA nowadays
vast forum
people have so much crit that MA overcaps it
fleet whale
i miss legion legendary shoulders and combining it with Nightstalker. Those big envenom crits
crimson palm
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/swnBM5pyJCtP34dY4F5ZSQ started getting the same weird shit with 1 SS trait
fleet anchor
I mean in this case it's basically just SS beating TtK
With a lot of haste and Exsang I don't think that is too crazy
TtK value goes down a lot without TB
crimson palm
Ye but also HoD instead of NP on helm
fleet anchor
Well that kinda plays into it as well
crimson palm
Like my highest simming sim is still the normal build https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/c8yFh8TkJA38igq2QPbaYR but this one seems to be taking over quite fast
fleet anchor
TB boosts NP damage
fleet anchor
SS will scale with haste yes because the bonus is per tick
crimson palm
Since I've never played Exsan before, what am I supposed to be doing
Like what's the prep before using it
Fresh dots, clf (if up) and then exsan?
fleet anchor
More or less
mystic vault
when playing subterfuge and deeper with no ss trait would you rupture at 4 cp after garrote mut in the opener or mutilate again for a 6 cp rupture?
fleet anchor
I'll probably dig out some of my exsang notes from long ago if it's making some sort of revival and see how it works out
crimson palm
the APL looks broken as well
Check the opener
It should be garrote garrote rup vendetta guardian exs
mystic vault
well you use a 6 cp rupture 7s into the fight for exsang
so the extra duration on the first rupture is pointless
= wasted combo points
crimson palm
why refresh rupture later
mystic vault
you want a full pandemic stacked or w/e you say rupture with exsang
crimson palm
make sense I guess, but is it a gain over wasting 3cp on a rupture there
since you'll get an envenom out for -3s on rupture
and it's a gcd during vendetta
actually more than -3s since you lose the pandemic
needs testing i guess
mystic vault
I haven't played exsang since early uldir but I am pretty sure you always go for a max cp rupture into it
see how the sim mutilates on 5cp just to get a max duration rupture before the exsang
crimson palm
yeah I noticed
fleet anchor
"It should be garrote garrote rup vendetta guardian exs"
This kind of stuff I really think is hard to say unless you prove it out
crimson palm
It's just what felt natural but is probably wrong
fleet anchor
There's a lot of black magic theory about openers that is mostly neutral and makes no difference 😄
fleet anchor
Could hard-code it with a sequence perhaps
Typically the reason it is like it above is that it's not usually worth using Exsang until your second Rupture because otherwise the low CP Rupture expires too fast
crimson palm
And what's the reason It's not using exs with the full emp garrote?
During 2nd vendetta
It's casting vanish at 2:18 but could be delayed to 2:28
fleet anchor
Exsang doesn't multiply or create any damage
It makes it so you refresh your non-empowered dots sooner further into the fight
So the interaction is not as obvious or intuitive as a damage amp
I'd also be honest that I think in real-world scenarios, TB is far easier to optimally use and even in cases like Kaz's profile the best TB profile is only 0.3% behind and it's really easy to lose more than that with just one badly-timed Exsang due to the mechanics.
fleet whale
I just hope both talents change in some way in Shadowlands. Both of them are just so boring for being "ultimate" talents
crimson palm
Venom Rush is still there 😛
sonic echo
I'm seeing a lot of different graphs and sims on all of the guides. For spamming mythics, do I went to prioritize shrouded suffocation or echoing blades?
strange python
shrouded
sonic echo
Okay. But I want one scent of blood right?
strange python
no
sonic echo
Okay so I think I've been doing the rotation wrong then. g1,g2,g3,r1,fok,r2,fok,r3 and then just keep those up on as many people as possible?
I see in the pin it's fok x5. So I use garrote on cd, rupture on 1, and spam fan?
marble hemlock
that would be with multiple echoing blades
without youd use your combopoints on envenoms, or rupture if you need more energy sustain
but you generally dont rupture for its damage, becasue it barely deals any
but because it generates energy, and you want a consistent energy sustain to use abilities on the global cooldown, which generally comes down to 3garrotes+1rupture or 3-4ruptures (depends a bit on your haste value)
i.e. you want to be able to generate ~35energy/second through passive regen and venomouswounds
sonic echo
That's super helpful thank you. Is there a guide that goes into detail like that? I want to see at what % haste I should be doing one or the other. Right now I have SSx2 and EBx2
fleet anchor
Yeah the thing you have to be careful of is spending too much before you get your DoTs up because you can easily get energy starved and then fall behind
But SS triple garrote helps a lot with that, as long as you are planning for when they fall off
sonic echo
Okay. So, g1 g2 g3 r1 fok, garrote on cd, keep rupture on at least one target with garrote for the energy, dump energy with envenom? Or do I spam fok and make sure I have enough energy for garrote when it's off cd
Sorry, I think there's one piece of this I'm not getting lol
I appreciate the help. I do like 60k overall right now but my sims are saying I should be at 83
rigid mango
You want to be sitting at 5 bleeds most of the time, which means you're energy positive
You then fok to build in most packs and finishers are often reapplication of bleeds, or just envenoms on the main target
If you start reaching really high target counts with a decent amount of echoing blades traits, you can start ignoring envenom and only fok as that'll be your damage
sonic echo
Is there a rough number for that?
That's what I do for the first big pull in freehold
I should find an addon that keeps a track of how many bleeds I have out
sour glade
@pale kernel If you're talking about M+ AOE you g1 g2 g3 CT FoK r1 Blood FoKx5
sonic echo
Yeah m+ aoe
sour glade
Refreshing CT as needed
After the FoK x5 you just fan, refresh CT, keep 5-6 bleeds up counting the CTs and then finish with envenom
rigid mango
Last time I checked it was somthing like
sonic echo
Hm okay
eternal turtle
whats the best neck essence for m+ now?
rigid mango
Blood
fleet anchor
I'd personally vote for Breath, but I know that's not the popular answer 😄
vestal wren
^
fleet anchor
(I think if most people reverse analyzed their logs they would realize how little Blood Major actually does.)
Not that it's bad, but it isn't really mega strong in dungeons either
For example, I looked at one of the top Blood logs for Atal on WCL and based on the uptime, crit rate, etc. overall the Major itself only accounted for about 3-4% of his damage.
But it is what most people use because it is fine and relatively easy to use
eternal turtle
is breath 2 fine enough? only came back a week ago
while i have most other stuff rank 3 (except blood)
fleet anchor
Nah Breath really isn't good until R3 unfortunately
eternal turtle
ah rlight
fleet anchor
The kill bonus is the main reason it is good in dungeons
fleet whale
shouldn't breath in theory scale better with higher neck levels
fleet anchor
Breath damage does scale with neck level yes
fleet whale
while bote.. only the initial damage and minor scales
eternal turtle
and was the 2/2/2 thing still a good start for traits?
fleet whale
with neck
fleet anchor
(Actually why Breath is meeeeega strong on alts because you get boosted to such high neck level immediately even when your gear sucks)
fleet whale
i'm still a little surprised to see so many BoTE logs still in fact. You would think with time breath would just be better
fleet anchor
I think it's mostly just habit
And because BotE is good enough
Breath R3 came in pretty late for a lot of people and I don't think many people have spent a lot of time using it
It is definitely a bit tricky to use optimally too
But you get used to it
fading walrus
so just got 15 corruption gushing wounds
i was running 1 rank 2 flay with rank 3 IS
should i run 1 flay r2 /1x gushing wound / 1x rank 3 void rituals ?
im really confused cz i knw gushing is op but IS is siming the highest
lean marten
IS might be better in pure ST but GW is really good in aoe
fading walrus
my gear is atm rank 4 TD for aoe with 3x SS and 2 EBs
im really confused on what to do with it
stoic plinth
So is VoP ever worth running as assaination with 3 NP traits
stoic plinth
Ok
fading walrus
if u time it perfectly u get 3x vendetas with blood
and vanish on first and u save it for 3rd vendeta
fading walrus
any high mythic raider that can advise me based on experience cz im new to high mythic raiding
arctic walrus
what are you looking for exactly
fading walrus
so just got 15 corruption gushing wounds
i was running 1 rank 2 flay with rank 3 IS
should i run 1 flay r2 /1x gushing wound / 1x rank 3 void rituals ?
im really confused cz i knw gushing is op but IS is siming the highest
for ST
and for AOE i have rank 4 TD with 3x SS and 2x EBs and 1 NP
wondering what would work the best
tropic ocean
td is not really used in raiding as assa rogue maybe in farm on add bosses if u want to go for log or pad
and IS is good for like wrathion/shadhar/maut(dangerous there tho) half decent on carapace/raden, gushing will beat is heavily by dps per corruption though
and depending on how confident you are/your raid is you can also run more corruption depending on boss, in last reclear I ran 65 corruption without an issue until drestagath (meaning on some bosses you don't even have to choose which corruption to use cuz u can just use them all)
fading walrus
yea cz sim kept saying IS rank 3 is the best
i was so tempted to IS and 2x rank 2 flays
but ye i get ur point with gushing
nzoth whatd u reckon ?
sour glade
There's no way whatsoever that breath 3 is the play for major in M+ on sin
When playing sin in M+ you already have to deal with the fact that unlike outlaw, you have to talent and trait for either ST or AOE. You need the AOE
Blood is its own damage but it's also the crits on fans which gives more echoing blades.
And if you wanted even more AOE but at the cost of boss damage then you'd run focusing iris.
But IMO running breath 3 as sin in keys is basically inting.
If someone showed me an overall from a fortified week of a sin doing 80k+ overall running breath 3 in a typical run, or 65k+ overall on a tyrannical I'd eat those words, but I don't think it would play out that way.
fading walrus
so i found a way to put in for keys and aoe fights , rank 4 TD with rank 1 gushing
but i lose 10 ilvls on my wep
from 470 to 460
tropic ocean
for overall td will probably heavily outvalue the weapon ilvl
for nzoth to your question all u need is boss dmg
and tentacle dmg
0 aoe
(is isnt really good on that fight due to many targets around, % stat, gushing, tentacle will most likely be better)
fading walrus
honestly im gona state some stuff based on under 60 corruption
tropic ocean
for progress im personally under 40 actually
fading walrus
i can go for 2x rank 2 flay / gushing
1x rank 2 flay / 1x rank 3 IS
1x rank2 flay / 1x rank 3 void rituals / 1gushing
tropic ocean
2x flay gushing is what i'd pick
fading walrus
oh i just got gloves
with vers
proc
so it would be 475 glaves with haste vers + socket
tropic ocean
sim it to be sure but sounds good
fading walrus
vs 460 haste mastery + 800 vers cproc
yea will do
can i asku smthg else
sry to keep bothering
but why did u pick 2flays over 1 flay and IS 3
is IS not sustainable ?
tropic ocean
because the high dmg from is comes from stacking the dmg amplification by proccing on the same target
eternal turtle
question; you shouldnt care about toxic blade during aoe? and from how many adds do you do the aoe opener / spam FoK? starting from 2 or 3 adds?
tropic ocean
which doesnt work as good in fights where there are multiple targets
@eternal turtle tb+vendetta and envenom into priority mob if theres one if not aoe fok
fading walrus
so u would swap to IS 3 in fights like maut and wration right ?
tropic ocean
yeah
maut is risky tho if it procs with high stacks into shield u r dead
but wrathion/shadhar free
eternal turtle
k thnx
drifting cloud
like you should just sim because those corruptions rise/drop in value alot depending on what ilvl stuff they are
then just try to make your highest simming IS set and non-IS set
and check the difference, since IS wont do the dmg it sims at on most fights
eternal turtle
and from how many adds is FoK worth it? already from 2 adds?
drifting cloud
but for me my IS set was simming so much higher that I still used it on every boss
fading walrus
does IS have an internal cd ?
eternal turtle
over mutilate that is to build cp
drifting cloud
it can
I had 10 stacks on shadhar at like 70% one kill
or 6 on a 45s xanesh wipe 🤣
@eternal turtle depends how many DD traits you have
tropic ocean
its hasted and the procs are very rng
fading walrus
mastery works on gushing :D?
drifting cloud
nope, would be too broken
tropic ocean
and for infinite stars @fading walrus
it can be very rng
having max stacks very early or then on other kills having not even max stacks at end of fight
fading walrus
so that spare corruption @tropic ocean sim says a rank 1 td on a 465 ilvl belt with vers mastery is better than 460 150 crit mastery belt ;p
by 1.4k dps but i duno if i wana trsut that
tropic ocean
well if sim says it probably is on patchwerk fight
personally i would not use it for nzoth
honest vessel
^
fading walrus
yea for overall, since i have a spot for 35 corruption available for me
fading walrus
yea im not talking abt just nzoth
tropic ocean
(which you need for most bosses)
fading walrus
i asked for nzth earlier czi . was on it
tropic ocean
the only boss I ever used td was hivemind
or maybe in carapace farm if u want to pad adds
fading walrus
on hivemind carapace do u go full aoe ? like SS and EBs and Tds ?
tropic ocean
3 ss 3 eb y
hidden blades too
in carapace progress not I played full st, but in farm I guess ill play same build as in hivemind
fading walrus
cool cool thank u
west cove
3x ss 3x eb is good for vexi pad?
tropic ocean
not sure if you can make up the dmg you'll lose in last phase
west cove
yeah was thinkimg that
fattest chinese logs are indeed 3x ss and as much as possible eb again
tropic ocean
well I guess if raid has not much aoe it will be benficial
like the one guy in orgozoa that was in bad guild that had no good aoe and he just pumped 100k dps cuz adds were alive so long
40% of the fight is still st
so the dps gain from padding needs to be higher than the st loss for 40% of the fight
wet ruin
@sour glade first dungeon I run with it, but subtract 10k for the zaps, so you get 75k on tyranical, more than 10k of what you asked for
west cove
this guy fan of knived even 2 target
west cove
is it viable to 2 target fok if u have 3 eb
drifting cloud
with 0 dd and 1 eb you already fok 2 targets iirc
west cove
ah idk much about ss eb builds
drifting cloud
could be wrong, I dont remember the exact breakpoints but its pretty low
its mostly the DD traits that make you not fok on low target count
tropic ocean
poor fury chokin
fading walrus
what do u usually for in ST as essences, right now i feel CLF major > lucid breath iris is working best for me
before i was runnning blood major > lucid breath vision
tropic ocean
bote/lucid/breath/iris(for bosses I use is on) if not I replace iris with c&s
clf sims a little higher for me too but bote just lines up better in most fights with situations where u need to push/burst dps smth
so I prefer using it
fading walrus
but bote doesnt line up with vendeta unless u go vision minor too no ?
i thought clf is good with vendeta cz its 2 mins
and blood with vision minor to line up with vendeta
can u link ur character would love to see stats and stuff
west cove
some people hold their coral to like 5-6 secs after encounter starts it has no GCD i assume people bind it with vendetta or what?
why just not apply it at the start
tropic ocean
binding with vendetta is not the best afaik
but I guess its due to slow hands or not wanting to press different button during opener
but yeah can use it right after first mutilate or garrote when playing with subt
keen acorn
hey guys, for assas, in raid what talents should i take?
im still tryna learn is, assass is really confusing to me :(
rigid mango
Is pretty standard.
keen acorn
someone told me vigor is horrible, he was saying that about outlaw, is it not the same for assas?
rigid mango
It isn't for either spec
And it's always the pick for sin in every type of pve content, give or take.
keen acorn
oh shit, alright, thank you :), do you know what essences are best?
tardy nimbus
rigid mango
!essence @keen acorn
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination Essences overview: https://bit.ly/2XaZOVd
rigid mango
honest vessel
gotta do the ! part first huh
keen acorn
ty
rigid mango
aye the ! introduces it as a command
honest vessel
makes sense
coarse carbon
Someone able to give me a quick "best practice" in regards to using Razor Coral? Took 10mos off and wasn't here for EP to get familiar with it.
tropic ocean
How to use Razer Coral trinket?
- For Assa, apply it as soon as possible and consume stacks with each Vendetta, reapply after.
coarse carbon
IE: Ideal number of stacks to proc the secondary use of it, etc.
strange python
anyone know how many mementos you get from a 4-5mask FULL clear when you only tag the last boss?
fallow marsh
hey should i always keep blood of the enemy and my vulpera acitve (30k dmg) on cooldown or should i wait for vendetta and use both of them then?
royal lantern
fallow marsh
uh lol yeah haha thanks buddy ^^
Does anyone know the right settings for raidbots when I want to sim for aoe? I mean patchwerk is only for the single target
strange python
you can specify more targets for patchwerk
fallow marsh
do u mean the number of bosses? hmm how many? 2,3?
strange python
try 6
fallow marsh
k thanks ^^
hidden bay
can any of u boys search the most fun build with NP/HOD/SS for me?
and non rng corruption
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/gmb7HZheUUWyTM7NQX6AmU
proud epoch
!stats
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination Stat weights:
Single target: haste > crit > mastery > vers
Multi target: crit > vers => mastery > haste
Note: Simming will always result in more accurate results.
tacit pebble
90k sim ok
fallow marsh
If i simed 70k for single target dmg how much dmg should i do by myself during the raid encounter? is 65k fine or to less?
flat wadi
do you bote before poppign vendetta?
tacit pebble
bote after your TB
fallow marsh
what do u guys mean with bote?
scarlet sequoia
bread on the eyes
civic palm
fallow marsh
Ok i simed a second time the sim is using bote after vendetta. Im not sure when i should use bote. I thought that i could use my bote after the first toxic blade hmm but it seems like that this idea is a bit dumb haha (https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/q8ow1pE5hyx3dpk6xVVq9d)
wet ruin
your sim is using bote after first toxic blade, don't know what you saw
fallow marsh
sry if i wasnt exactly enough ^^
shrewd iron
it wasn't a dumb idea 🙂
west cove
i thought that was dungeon slice wtf 90k sim st
wet ruin
he can get +400 dps by switching food
quasi pewter
yes
west cove
human female with slutmog i’d say
fallow yoke
debating.. 😦 just making random rogues looking at how xmogs look on them
both female and males
fallow hollow
how do you play muti rogue on the scale phase of mythic wrathion
honest vessel
personally i get the scale so i run all the way to the back with it, rupture a few, and look for a group of two or three that are by themselves and need attention, then i go pump on those
meager steppe
he runs subfertuge without having garote azerit, is that normal novadays?
subtle tundra
yes
nova viper
Is it worth playing rogue if i dont have bote?
rigid mango
yes
strange python
should i be rupturing the adds on xanesh? i was doing it but checking the replay of the #1 rogue on xanesh he just stays on xanesh is it cuz he runs IS?
tropic ocean
Did he play futball? Had to kick add?
strange python
nah full uptime on boss as far as i saw
tropic ocean
is wont be affected by not attacking the adds it just procs random
strange python
ah ok didnt know ty
tropic ocean
should be a gain to dot add
but then again the high ranked logs are often not determined by how optimal you actually play but rather how often your corruption procced
strange python
yeah makes sense tyvm
tropic ocean
Not saying the guy played bad but
On one of my best logs On one boss i forgot to use vendetta in the end but didnt matter with stars rng still +12k dps on older log where i played better
🙂
strange python
wtf xD
steep obsidian
yeah i once had 2 is procs in 5 secs when someone pulled the boss to reset and i sat in stealth while it was reset
i wish i had that good rng actually in fights with it i gave up on running it mostly nowadays
tropic ocean
too bad
quasi pewter
its not worth rupturing adds if ur only goal is to do boss damage
tropic ocean
that'd be some nasty log whoring possibilities
steep obsidian
everyone would be doing it like 100x if it worked
people did it on raden for the supremacy buff just for the locks
quasi pewter
for max overall dps, its worth but only if the adds dont die instantly ofc
tropic ocean
sometimes I have the feeling people do more for logs
steep obsidian
i you get refunded energy if a mob dies with your bleeds on it i believe
tropic ocean
than they do for progressing the bosses
quasi pewter
yes you do get refunded energy but it is not worth it for prio damage
unless, and this is just feelcraft, a tb is coming up and ur low on energy
orchid sequoia
if i have r2 mindflay r2 infinite stars, does the mindflay maybe proc less cause i already got infinite stars?
my mindflay used to do atleast 6% of my dmg, this wrathion kill it did 1.1%, and infinite stars did 7%
orchid sequoia
kk
orchid sequoia
yea my friend plays r6 mindflay so his does that too sometimes
but mine has never gone above 6%, i guess cause shit rank 2
strange python
u mean stat increases like expedient or proc based ones like honed mind? or do u only mind dps procs
tropic ocean
afaik dps order is gushing > expedient > rest
honed mind is okayish it has higher rppm than tents
with 3 np build 12% mastery probably pulls ahead on expedient, but needs to be simmed
faint harness
@strange python i mean like % stat increases, honed mind has quite good uptime
Expedient would be cool, but % crit is also alright
strange python
ah i never thought about going 3 np with masterful 3 ill sim it later on
ornate gazelle
Is there a sin m+ guide anywhere? Mostly for gear, stats, etc. I know x3 SS but beyond that
elfin fossil
scarlet sequoia
no dont
cosmic prism
do u need an excessive amount of haste corruptions for that tripe SS build to work, its simming like 3k less than my current
cosmic prism
rip the dream, will have to wait for mythic raden kill 
marsh aurora
guys
need gigafast answer
workshop 21 should I go assasin ?
cobalt pelican
yes probably
low junco
keen dome
Guys, is gardian of azeroth benefiting from haste ? Sims rank it higher than botd as major since I got raden trinket in place if my old font
scarlet sequoia
yes
keen dome
Thanks, makes sense
agile phoenix
anyone thats good with simming able to help me out?
cold apex
hi guys i got a question about assasination rogue with blood in dungeons. How do you properly use it there ?
Do you pair it with vanish or just garrote a bunch of targets and then use blood ?
thin bone
I've seen alot of rogues simming over 80k 5min patchwerk with rank5 mindflays
Would you be able to give me some insight on which gear pieces looks to be the most problematic atm?
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/kUdqKZ6VgCJyXd7rjyeiZ2
fast hound
