as melee alteast
#assassination
rigid mango
crimson palm
ra-den and ilgy also?
crimson palm
on shad i think u just need to plan the usage
rigid mango
not about the major
crimson palm
oh
rigid mango
it's about the uptime on the minor
cobalt pelican
idk
this was about our entire melee camp using it
pretty gross
i just looked at it and i was like there's no way this is worth it without forced stacking which can lead to slow brainers dying
rigid mango
ye idk we never wipe bec of dps issues either so
I'd rather just let people play w/ever they're comfy with and try to not int
cobalt pelican
p1 naturally just has movement like
you can force your melee to move as a unit
but that's just recipe for disaster
p2 you spread anyway for breath
p3 is like
super stacked but
meh
late plinth
hey i really need some help about my daggers, i cant't decide wich one to use even after i simmed them š¦ any1 got an idea ?https://i.imgur.com/iR7mYyC.png https://i.imgur.com/nSBi6Fy.png https://i.imgur.com/UHa2zR9.png
inner sonnet
do they not sim that differently?
crimson palm
the 440 IS is ass
inner sonnet
and remember - add a target and IS loses value - so for all fights but like 3 in Nya it's outclassed by TA
late plinth
barely any difference in sims. but i know how busted IS is in sims even tho its a 440 dagger
inner sonnet
yeah, just ignore it and use the other 2
rigid mango
The stuff that isn't inf stars
crimson palm
is force multiplier supposed to fall off with ilvl?
cobalt pelican
secondaries tend to get stronger as gear increases
and mainstat just
stays the same
crimson palm
i've 60% mastery and somehow it still wants me to put more mastery
cobalt pelican
when stats are kinda close to begin with and you have 9% bonus income from mastery
crimson palm
idd
that's getting cleansed as soon as i'm home though
can't wear the new ring with the pants
idle ember
So I got double EV II from my chests. Any plausible reason I shouldn't cleanse haste/mastery EV II boots? They wouldn't buff them in the future would they?
idle ember
I figured, I just needed to hear it from someone else. I may hang onto them for now, I have the same boots @ 460 with leech so it's not exactly a massive upgrade.
cobalt pelican
i got a 475 socketed ev3 belt this week and cleansed it immediately
crimson palm
it might be worth holding onto corruptions for the future socket though
inner sonnet
yay.... more holding onto gear....
crimson palm
ye it fucking sucks...
nocturne gate
do u guys still gamble no matter what for goraks ?
rigid mango
I won't.
nocturne gate
i got pistoleers last week. im in a (currently) 5/12m guild so head arent the problem(maut) and we are pretty close to xanesh so i guess this maybe next week hes dead but dunno if its worth then to gamble chest 
if vexiona is the next*
rigid mango
I'd droptimizer/do big gear compare sims and check for yourself
I personally dont see huge gains for me to get goraks, and it's essentially the only piece that's bigger thana negligible dps diff, but I care more about m+ than 600 dps
crimson palm
Goraks are ~1k dps upgrade over HC Nzoth shoulders
rigid mango
For you, not for me š
crimson palm
The variance can't be that high š
rigid mango
Depends entirely on what you're wearing and what I'm wearing
Corruption matters a ton
HoD is worth a lot for me thanks to GW
So yes, blanket statements like those are generally bad.
quick egret
How do you guys sim for M+?
I'm using a combination of hectic add cleave and dungeon slice but im not sure if that is correct
modest tendon
Nope
Just do ST sims or custom sims if your clever, check out fuuās dungeon slice for instance if you really want a dslice
Just copy gear off good players otherwise, dslice comes out with strange and wrong suggestions sometimes
quick egret
I heard from a previous debate that SS is bad? Is it just bad for ST or for m+ too?
modest tendon
Ss is bis for m+
quick egret
ie should i prioritise eb over ss?
modest tendon
Also good for some cleave fights
But most people just pump ST in raids
It depends
Some dungeons ss is better, some dungeons eb is better
quick egret
I can either run 3 eb and 1 ss or 2 eb and 2ss
modest tendon
2eb and 2ss will work in basically every key
quick egret
But 3 ss is bad for st right?
modest tendon
In M+ nope
Ss actually does the most ST out of all azerite traits until after 3 minute fights thereabouts
Thatās why itās bis in M+
quick egret
Ahh I had 3 ss and 1 eb but I just got a 480 eb and twist the knife
so I can go 2 and 2 I guess
modest tendon
In Dungeons with small pulls prioritise 3ss, dungeons with bigger pulls prioritise eb
Take 3ss 3eb into almost every key if you can but itās really hard to get that set
nocturne gate
it became cephalohide jacket^^
inner sonnet
I always replace a SS for a NP in higher level tyranns too
Cephalohide is pog for basically whatever you do in assas
modest tendon
Iv been messing around with NP too, Iāll need to do some simming but itās really nice to have for the bigger vendettas especially when you run vision minor
Recently decided I think assa is better for siege than outlaw, just becusee you have a vendetta ready for just about every high health mob in the dungeon
inner sonnet
it's roughly the same for shrine too
modest tendon
And it sucks not being able to reset on spotter but spotter should be doing all of the damage anyway so who cares
inner sonnet
only big things are the currents that you lack a Vend for
modest tendon
The currents?
As in the elementals at the start of the dungeon?
Donāt pull those š
I would only take 3ss 3eb into shrine, which Iāll never have soo
But yeah vendetta will be nice on the adds on last boss
And big pulls letās you make the most of eb
quick egret
Big pulls as in 3-4 or more targets?
inner sonnet
5+
low lodge
Hey guys, can you explain why Subterfuge sims higher than MA on this sim? It's a standard 5 min patchwerk. The weird thing is that SS is an alternative, but it does not choose it.
warm parcel
why could it not be better?
low lodge
It just feels weird, that Subterfuge is better even without SS, but I guess it's possible
Just normally, I would assume no SS traits would result in MA being better
inner sonnet
typically that's true, but you don't even have a TtK so there's less value in the MA crit window, especially with only 2 DD
low lodge
Yeah, but I still sim SS as an alternative
inner sonnet
MA gains value with DD and TtK, SS increases the value of Subterf, but they can sim equally otherwise
low lodge
And it just feels weird that it would not choose that
warm parcel
ss is just trash
thats why
rogues have some really good traits
like dd np and hod
ss was great only at the very start
royal lantern
razor coral+high base crit+possible you have crit procs
warm parcel
has been bad ever since
and yea as tryan pointed out
youre 40 crit without any procs
warm parcel
theres dr to having just one stat
crimson palm
& focused resolve pot I guess
low lodge
Well, I simmed alternatives to the crit stats and I still simmed highest with this amount of crit
But of course it makes sense that MA would overcap me in Crit and then lose value
warm parcel
crit being good doesnt mean you want ma
low lodge
True
warm parcel
like the more crit you have the better sub is in comparison
just cause the value of ma goes down the more you have
vague rock
in the aoe opener you still want to envenom after fok if you only get 2 cp?
crimson palm
what would the ST opener look like with Subt
you hold vanish until garrote expires?
royal lantern
you never use finishers at 2cp
crimson palm
then it'd be off sync with 2nd vendetta window though
royal lantern
exception is like, rupture when the ennemy dies in the next 10sec
but never envenom, always go for 4-5
vague rock
the aoe opener thing says that in the opener
rigid mango
yes @crimson palm but u delay 2nd vend for 2nd vanish and use them together from that point onwards
low lodge
What would the opener with Subterfuge and no SS look like on ST? Garrote -> Muti -> Garroe -> Rupture?
rigid mango
g m rup
crimson palm
that feels like ass tho
low lodge
But if I don't crit Zine, I'd be on 3 CP
crimson palm
would rather take the DPS loss from MA and not delay shit
low lodge
But double garrote would also prolong the duration of empowered garrote
crimson palm
check what the sim is doing
rigid mango
It's doing what I'm saying
cobalt pelican
the sims just do what they're told which is still g m r
not sure if it's been checked whether with scaling a second garrote is worth for 1cp
crimson palm
gar mut mut?
crimson palm
Gar Rup Gar is with SS traits right?
rigid mango
y
crimson palm
@cobalt pelican ye but the sim rules are a dps upgrade in this case, we're debating whether we could improve even higher š
rigid mango
I don't do APL shit
And subt no SS APL is potentially littered with issues
Just do what it says, can't go worse than just following it
crimson palm
exactly ^^
cobalt pelican
hwuh
languid sail
which is better for m+ HoD or TTK?
cobalt pelican
i'd pretty much always take hod
ttk is just kinda ass but i know not everyone agrees on that
modest tendon
Itās ass but it works with the playstyle perfectly
Iām thinking 3ss 3hod is bis
Just being able to melt small packs š®
cobalt pelican
i don't think it's really possible to have a 'bis' setup for this spec in m+, too many of your globals just shift around
sometimes you're spending on envenoms frequently
sometimes you're not and fok is like 2x the globals it normally is
sometimes you're pulling big sometimes small idk
it's too hard
this spec is literally just GET ALL THE GEAR
bold yew
i gotta say i have 5 different azerites on each slot
modest tendon
Well itās get 3ss/3eb or go outlaw
modest tendon
Then have your 3ss build for Kr and siege
fathom wyvern
if i wanna target an azerite piece tho what do i go for?
warm parcel
you can see that from raidbots droptimizer
rough veldt
can i pm my logs to anyone from last night to help me improv on my deeps numbers
much appreciated please
lofty junco
is the cns essence necessary?
hollow stone
Its one of the best. But going w flame, lucid, and botd is pretty close. So no, its not necessary
For st
lofty junco
I just dislike arena. bote honor is allready annoying enough
hollow stone
Its more of a should get than a must get
lofty junco
allright ty good to know
potent raft
@cobalt pelican you're definitely doing something wrong in that melee camp :D
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/FdDCWmwfTqVkbrzh#fight=last&type=auras&ability=295137
cobalt pelican
link no werk
potent raft
oh ofc.. it's private..
cobalt pelican
but i think we were doing fine, the boss died in like 17 pulls
maybe it's possible some guilds naturally stack more and are ok
but eh, for us it's just not worth it
potent raft
cobalt pelican
yeah but like
click through to like
one of your rogues
and show the stack uptime
i'm curious
cobalt pelican
yeah i still
wouldn't play that
much better than mine for sure
but it's not close to sim value, and sim value is only like a 600 net gain in my gear
potent raft
is there a way to filter time active only on 4 stacks
cobalt pelican
i think you'd need to use a filter expression and they're in like
pseudo mysql
not sure if there's an easier way
potent raft
54% uptime on 4 stacks, i counted it manually
cobalt pelican
yeah idk
cobalt pelican
sim uptime with 2 allies selected is
and it spikes up to like 95% 4stack with 4 allies
and kinda levels out there
with the only benefit above 4 being lower lowstack counts
potent raft
so basically it looks like sim it with 1 ally to be somewhat accurate
cobalt pelican
it kinda varies a bit fight to fight like
like on maut you'll get close to sim value
but on shadhar or anything with ANY movement
yea
cobalt pelican
did you get a lot of circles or something
i can kinda understand dropping stacks at intermission as the boss moves etc but then they should settle back down if your raid is playing it
1 ally for reference
potent raft
reee, wtb 1.5 ally š¤£
cobalt pelican
what i'd probably use as a personal rule of thumb is
add it to your sims at 1
and if it's close to something you'd play otherwise
play it
for random stupid fights
and then for fights you know you'll get good value
you can just take it at 4 ally value
cause like idk what happened on that maut pull but assuming you're basically on melee ass forever and your melee camp has it it should do a bit better than that
potent raft
well yeah but even for fights you think u'd get good value, you dont
cobalt pelican
yeah i mean
i don't play it anywhere
rn
i stopped a few weeks back
cause i noticed the same trend of like
potent raft
i checked other melees on maut, same shit
cobalt pelican
it's just kinda shit
that and like
1min cd is kinda butt
cause if you have to delay that middle wv for any reason
you then knockon have to delay vend a bit
i just kinda hate the entire thing tbh
raw oasis
Is there a significant gameplay change when running 3x DD?
cobalt pelican
nop
be more mindful of making sure your mutilates are during envenom but even if you try your hardest it's hard to miss that at current levels of haste
potent raft
so if WV is out of the question.. it leaves CLF or BotD , until i finally finish the BotE farm
cobalt pelican
clf is consistently best for me in my gear, but a lot of people (probably ta players/whateve) have blood being their best
i think either is fine, i'd prefer if blood was my best but you know what can you do
potent raft
lmao.. i got expedient3 boots today
pushed my haste so high (it was very high already, as i have expedient 1 and IS3 as well..) so now i finally replace 445 font+socket for 460 vita š
pulsar ledge
Finally a good weekly, besides the on equip lol
ashen osprey
I have the residuum to buy a piece, which slot has the best chance for a good piece in your opinion?
hallow coyote
hollow stone
It depends on your gear and what all youre gearing. If youre gearing for sin st, sin m+, and OL; that changes the math vs just gearing for sin st (for example)
And your raid prog
And what content you like doing
ashen osprey
M+ and we are doing h raid. Going through the sims now
fair delta
droptimizer just seems to list all gear from the source you choose - not which is best, yes?
ashen osprey
It sims the gear in comparison to what you have for the dps increase from what I am seeing
scarlet swift
I know we trust the sims, but my sims changed today to use Potion or Focused Resolve. Do I switch or keep using fury pots?
hollow stone
Sim them both in separate sims and find the answer for yourself
vagrant tapir
hollow stone
Where it says ālet simc decideā or whatever, change it to the 1 of the 2 options and then do the same with the remaining one
100% is ideal, yup
cobalt pelican
like 99.8% or something with the only downtime being the first few globals and maybe at the end of the fight if envenoms take priority over refreshing cause of ttd
timid cloud
Suggestions for M Wrath CD line-ups? I feel like my CDās are always like 30s off for some reason, mainly my vanish.
cobalt pelican
play vop
press vend on the boss on cd
and probably just play subterfuge and randomly use it on shit when you can
warm kettle
Is conflict and strife rank 2 worth using as a 4th minor in a Assa single target senario or should I take something else. Already use Lucid og dying as the other minors.
or do it have to be rank 3
tropic ocean
@ashen osprey a huge part to decide what azerite to roll is if u want it either for raid or m+ and how many bosses ur guild downed
Could potentially just save up and buy straight up m+ pieces as raid decks you with raid pieces if you clear hc
fleet anchor
Catching the WV discussions from earlier, I actually think some of you guys significantly underestimate how good it is. Or donāt have other people in your raid that want to run it and deal with lower shard generation rates.
royal lantern
oh boi, shits gonna be real now
fleet anchor
At least with my gear WV is virtually the same as BotE if I literally have zero allies with it and garbage uptime and only use it as a major during CDs. With any additional uptime it gets much much better.
royal lantern
subtle tundra
fleet anchor
I think the issue stems from assuming WV needs good uptime to be good rather than viewing good uptime as a bonus.
tropic ocean
fleet anchor
Or looking at overall uptime while not considering time away from the boss as being reduced efficiency anyway. (Say moving between new targets on Drestagath)
hollow stone
tropic ocean
isnt breath major the top pick in drest anyway?
fleet anchor
Most likely if you can game the execute buff. It was just an example.
Like looking at the overall uptime of the buff on Vex for example is also kinda useless since you have full downtime phases that donāt really matter.
tropic ocean
idk wv w/o allies is not a lot better than bote for me and thats simmed with 100% uptime so i dont bother
fleet anchor
There also seems to be an odd idea that because BotE hits AoE that itās inherently better for AoE even without movement. But thatās not really true either. WV scales AoE damage equally as good as ST damage and actually can be better in situations with streaming adds you canāt catch with one single BotE usage.
tropic ocean
we used it in first id for stuff like maut wrathion skitra prophet
It was super good cuz everyone used
In orgozoa last id basically shards all over the room but idk
I just wouldnt use it in some bosses even if its a small up
e.g. nzoth
Or carapace
fleet anchor
They also have ninja fixed pretty much all the shard refresh bugs from EP
So having lots of people running it is not really a problem anymore
subtle tundra
worldvein š¤®
tropic ocean
Idk how to sim it but on nzoth eg
On a mob with x% inc dmg
Shouldnt 25% from bote naturally be better
Than agi
fleet anchor
I mean sure on Nāzoth itās likely a bit more limited although depends on how the timings line up. Iād have to look at it more.
tropic ocean
idk if its multiplicative or additive
fleet anchor
They should both be multiplied as separate parts of the formulas afaik. So not sure that makes any difference.
tropic ocean
and for aoe like hivemind i use bote for the sole fact that it basically guarantees every fok procs 5 eb
fleet anchor
I think the real challenge for WV is comp related. Like if Iām running it with like 6 or 7 people in raid who like it (Hunters, Rets, maybe DHs minor, another Rogue)
There are shards everywhere basically all the time lol
hollow stone
For hivemind (just to play devilās advocate), wv lines up w every drone phase for max cheese
fleet anchor
When I looked at Hivemind logs from last week the WV uptime was a lot higher than I thought it would be.
tropic ocean
but does it outscale the crit dmg + eb procs is the question
hollow stone
That is indeed the question. And idk
fleet anchor
If you are running EB I think BotE does gain some value for sure.
I never really run EB though.
tropic ocean
Cuz w/o bote on aoe my crit is about 60% ish
hollow stone
I just played OL 
tropic ocean
No weapon
š¤·šæāāļø
maybe i will run 2xdeadly momentum next kill
- wv
And see
fleet anchor
There is certainly EB synergy. That part is accurate.
hollow stone
Id say its worth a go on rekills
tropic ocean
gonna get my raid to run some wvs and try it today
hollow stone
Honestly, the hardest part about playing wv is convincing others to also play it
fleet anchor
I was thinking of making a SimC setting that allowed simulating random movement related stack drops. Rather than having to toy with the ally count to manipulate stack uptimes.
If that would make people feel more confident in the comparisons.
tropic ocean
I mean the problem us
Its just very hard to realistically compare it
Cuz everyone moves like a monkey
so uptime will vary a lot
like xanesh eg just popped wv and tank is like naw not gonna tank it here
fleet anchor
Iād also say that itās hard to judge peopleās performance this tier based on essence selection because you could pick freakinā PP major and still get a good parse if you have good corruption/RNG š¤£
tropic ocean
def gonna try some wv today can link logs after
subtle tundra
just proc tentacle 20 times 
fleet anchor
Yeah ez
I saw a log with like 12 tentacle procs in 3 minutes. 1 RPPM. Geez.
But yeah itās definitely interesting in terms of the feedback loop. For example even on Wrathion you can see WV mixed in on the top 200 parses but still mostly BotE. But canāt really see too much reason for it unless nobody else in your group is running at all.
In my Wrathion pull last night I had over 50% 4 shard uptime and when subtracting movement phases it was almost 80% and thatās more than enough to just crush the value of BotE really.
But still more people running BotE on the charts. Kinda interesting really.
Then again, Iām slightly interested in the logic of using BotE over GoA on ST focused fights as well. Since GoA is about 1% ahead for me on ST compared to BotE even after the nerf.
I think people just like big crits. š
hollow stone
People also just like big parses, especially on farm content, and run bote to pad on spires
So while wv may be the better choice for meaningful dps, people will want to pad
fleet anchor
Well dropping WV during spires probably is just as good as BotE for padding tbh. I usually hold for the boss with the timing though. Wrathion timings are obnoxious for Assassination in general. š¦
hollow stone
Unless you have to move cause the group of spires you chose to pop on dies quickly. Then again, you could apply that same situation to bote
shy axle
do you use bote on cd or let it sit until vendetta/vanish are usable again ?
hollow stone
On wrathion?
fleet anchor
Yeah I was gonna say, seems like that issue is identical for BotE since if your targets hit with it die the value is gone.
Just as if you moved out of WV.
Best bet for padding is always gonna be finding a clump nobody else is touching. š¤£
Either way
shy axle
i wonder how you guys are doing the spires. Just dot them and fok when you got more than 4/5 - or are you dotting and st-ing them down ?
tacit pebble
you run bote major on wrathion because of timers
you'll get shit worldvein major usage because of intermissions
shy axle
yes i know
just wondering if it is okay to let bote sit ~ 30 sec to combine it with ven/van always, when not using vop minor
scarlet sequoia
yes.
fleet anchor
@tacit pebble Not sure how you figure that. Unless you are desyncing your BotE from vendetta the timers are gonna be meh either way due to 2 minute alignment.
fleet anchor
Sure but if you do that Iām not sure how that leads to āshitā WV uptime. Even if you delay the major a few times the 4 stack uptime if you are running with others is going to be well ahead.
tacit pebble
because worldvein major being used twice every 3 minutes is worse than bote being used with every vendetta
fleet anchor
As the saying goes, ādonāt allow perfect to be the enemy of the goodā
Just because something doesnāt line up perfectly doesnāt make it inherently worse. It makes it worse than itās own maximum potential, that doesnāt imply itās not still better than other options.
tacit pebble
when its only 1k dps ahead in the first place
and you lose 30% of its uptime
then yes, its rough
final dust
I mean the uptime is completely dependent on you raid
final dust
If you know how long you have till the intermission is over you can
tacit pebble
then it desyncs from vendetta
fleet anchor
I mean even VoP is a tradeoff. It may feel better but giving up damage because minors are very strong right now.
tacit pebble
wrathion is just a fight thats bad for worldvein
tacit pebble
thats why the logs show worldvein being good on shadhar/maut and bad on wrathion
fleet anchor
I mean the logs donāt show that at all
fleet anchor
There are WV parses in the top 20
Just because people run BotE doesnāt make it better by default. It means people are running it.
fleet anchor
And parses are far more dependably on Corruption than Essence selection regardless.
tacit pebble
on sample sizes of 1400 bote vs 1500 wv
you're telling me their corruption is 3000 dps different
its literally wrathion timers just being bad for worldvein
fleet anchor
I think you are drawing conclusions from a dataset that doesnāt actually tell you what you think it does.
Those charts are misleading at best. And have always been.
tacit pebble
what metric do you want to go by
top logs where its all bote
average logs where its all bote
same stats show worldvein being slightly better on shadhar/maut, because you can use worldvein well
the small % of people running vop minor on wrathion on average perform far better
because the timers are ideal for it
fleet anchor
You have to actually measure the results in terms of the uptimes. You are making a supposition about the uptime that isnāt reflected in a raid with more people running it. Easily will have 60-70% effective 4 stack uptime on Wrathion even delaying the major.
tacit pebble
i dont care about the minor, we're talking about majors
fleet anchor
Well both are relevant. They both add up. But the minor is more powerful for WV than BotE. BotE is not a great minor at all.
tacit pebble
so use worldvein minor with bote major
fleet anchor
Like I certainly get the logic you are following in terms of the timing issues but I donāt think you are accounting for the negative trade offs either.
tacit pebble
i mean the results are all there, logs show the right thing to do there
fleet anchor
Considering there are multiple top 200 parses using WV on that fight or without CoF, I would say that assuming itās binary is incorrect.
fleet anchor
That is an interestingly convenient cutoff.
strange python
is every single one of top 16 bote major because better geared people play it maybe
tacit pebble
i'm sorry, is 16 of the top 17 better?
i feel like when every one of the top 16 is one thing, its a clear sign somethings better
fleet anchor
And fairly irrelevant to the point that WV can compete with the numbers if someone equally geared chooses to run it. But most top end parses default to BotE. Which is the topic being discussed.
fleet anchor
There is clearly a feedback loop.
tacit pebble
fleet anchor
āRun correct essencesā for most players seems to be āgo to WCL and copy the top parseā which naturally is a feedback loop. Anyone who has played the game for some time knows this.
Which is why I wanted to start a discussion about it. š
hollow stone
The question is why, not what
tacit pebble
you're locked into something bizarre when its clearly been shown to just not work as well on that fight
tacit pebble
that would be reasons to not run it on maut or shadhar or whatever
but on wrathion its just flat worse
the current r1 on wrathion, some random china man, ran bote/vop minor on wrathion and switched to WV for maut
because the essences work better for the respective fights
hollow stone
I agree that bote is likely better for wrathion esp w vop minor. But just dismissing it because āwcl doesnt use it in top parsesā is not a satisfying answer
quick edge
Should i be using Unbridled Fury or Focused assault pots in single target as assa?
focused resolve*
fleet anchor
āShown to not work as wellā is something that just isnāt really supported. The top 200 samples show that BotE, non VoP, WV, and GoA are all roughly viable. There could be more reasons but just pointing to the top parse statistics is not really great evidence when those same people could probably equally parse with any of the options.
hollow stone
Sim both in separate sims and compare @quick edge
fleet anchor
People do tend to play what they think feels better for sure. Usually without considering all the tradeoffs.
Using VoP minor alone has a lot of hidden costs that offset much of the value of syncing things up.
winter gale
What are my tools for moving debuff from Wrathion? Vanish, Cloak od Shadows and thats it ?
arctic walrus
What boss you talking about?
cosmic pier
just stand still 
strange python
you can also use a draenic action potion but that's like last resort
hollow stone
Weāre talking about wrathion specifically now. But were discussing wv in general before that
fleet anchor
Cloak should be all you really need unless you get bad luck
cosmic pier
for real though, sometimes you can hard drop if you dont need to run out
fleet anchor
lol
tacit pebble
running bote major for a lot of people means subterfuge is better anyway, and subterfuge lining up with vendetta isn't a huge deal, and vanish/double on use desync are the only real drawbacks to vop minor
hollow stone
You can reset after every transition as long as you dont get incerate
And if you do, cloak your stacks or get a freedom or tigers lust or w/e
cosmic pier
also just call for a freedom/tigers lust
fleet anchor
Font desync is also an issue, which is surprising considering the top parses also run Font with VoP which drastically reduces Fontās value.
Frankly would probably be better off running almost any high ilevel trinket other than Font when using VoP and desyncing CD cycles.
tacit pebble
i agree, which is why i dont run font for that fight
3 fonts on a 7.5 minute fight isn't the play
rocky holly
generally whatāre good alternatives to font? second trinket being razor coral
rocky holly
hmmm one of the only trinkets i donāt have lol
strange python
a high loaded dice sims pretty well too
rocky holly
i did get a 475 loaded dice from weekly but it didnāt look good on sims
strange python
anything looks good if you just dont select font
frigid sleet
475 dice does sim better than 430 font paired with 445 coral for me by quite a margin
frigid sleet
That's too much of a juicy font I guess
tacit pebble
475 raden trinket outsims my 445 font by a few hundred dps, thank god
rocky holly
iāll re sim but last time i checked, 475 dice + 430 coral is a -800 dps loss
5min 1 target light movement
rocky holly
seemed like a more realistic number. why not run it?
rocky holly
can you substantiate that for me? genuinely curious if iām doing it wrong
shy dust
Itās just better and more useful to sim patchwork
rocky holly
yeah but how is what iām asking
opal minnow
apl optimization probably
rocky holly
okay i see
final dust
Hi skaro
rocky holly
still 5 minutes with patchwork yeah?
opal minnow
yeah still 5 min
cosmic pier
i use coral + 475 socketed spyglass
rocky holly
thatās phat
cosmic pier
so nice not use double on use
final dust
I think anything a 440 socketed donāt you will be using forever
rocky holly
: (
shy dust
With enough expident vita would probably beat it out
Given in a few weeks you can add a socket to gear
rocky holly
right
final dust
Like I have 455 socketed coral + 445 socket font
cosmic pier
i main swapped to dh though because its just better than sin 
final dust
And no trinket out sims tho
shy dust
Given enough expedient a M ra den will probably beat your font
rocky holly
in my mythic EP this week someone ROLLED a 455 coral
vital haven
@cosmic pier traitor
final dust
@shy dust I mean given the corruption I want gushing wounds is best
So my font would still win out
shy dust
Expedient is a very strong option
shy dust
Gushing wounds being possibly the best doesnāt mean expedient isnāt also a very attractive option.
final dust
But itās just a matter of what I can get
shy dust
You canāt go for corruption
vital haven
the best description for dhs went like "dhs are playing wow 2 every other class is just playing wow"
shy dust
You use the best options you have
vital haven
you know in the mdi realm they have corruption scrolls
im like thats such a good idea they should implement that in the live realm
obv its not gonna happen
rocky holly
they should make it so that you can buy all the gear too just like tournament realms kekw
vital haven
LOL
rocky holly
shrouded suff / echoing blade build or outlaw on hive mind? whatās the consensus
rocky holly
mythic
subtle tundra
@rocky holly it depends on the raid dps
final dust
If you had everything no point in playing
strange python
Hivemind depends what your raid needs. But generally for prog i would say assa bc wound Poison + master poisoner. And maybe Pump Vendetta into adds
quick egret
My st Sims don't go over 57k and I'm 464 š¢
subtle tundra
do you struggle with drones, small adds, boss damage, ravager damage
as rogue you can just adapt to those needs
vital haven
outlaw prob
rocky holly
which is the better choice for either scenario
fleet anchor
What aspect of the adds?
subtle tundra
on prog my second vendetta + font was used on ravager
strange python
Which adds? Smallies? Biggies? Self heal Phase?
fleet anchor
Bursting them down before they heal? Keeping them in place? Interrupting casts? Etc.
rocky holly
smallies, healing
cosmic pier
outlaws pretty nice for hivemind, instant target swapping plus gouge and bte for add control
subtle tundra
just go outlaw and be decent at all of those things
strange python
Healing Go assa with wound Poison
And master poisoner
Reduces their healing by 30%
And you got competitive damage
fleet anchor
I think most guilds try to have at least a couple people run Iris to time at low heath and burst them down. Could be anyone though.
Thatās what we did anyway
iron heath
can any 1 link the h nzoth logs
hollow stone
Id recommend OL for hive. But honestly, both are super comparable if weāre talking equivalent gear. If weāre not talking equivalent gear, run the one w better gear
rocky holly
gear for outlaw is just a bit better, but iām still learning to not waste combo points etc
which is why iām hesitant
rocky holly
that was my thought process
hollow stone
Its a mechanical fight at the end of the day. If youre more consistent at dodging mechanics as sin, just stay sin
next solar
Killed hive mind as assass last night. Also depends on how good your raid burst is for drones/darters
cosmic pier
not being able to play all your specs as a mythic raider 
hollow stone
We got a future dh player on our hands
rocky holly
gotcha
idle ember
having to adjust your spec for your raid single target failures
hollow stone
Come join the dark side š
distant cypress
raidbots down? :(
short token
we're using focused resolve?
rocky holly
if raid is having trouble with darters / ravagers would it be worth it to run double dose instead of ss build?
hollow stone
Weāre using āsim both pot options and use the one w higher simā
next solar
If you go assass cleave youāre essentially replacing mutilate with fok
For drones you want burst dps from raid more than anything.
next solar
Ah do you have a blood dk running conflict
cosmic pier
keep em locked down
next solar
Oh forsure outlaw destroys darters
idle ember
My outlaw corruptions suck and I don't have any SS traits, maybe volunteer to sit on Hive š
:
idle ember
Might be the play since we have 3 warriors and 3 DH and 1 rogue on the roster.
next solar
3 dh run beam and barrage and adds are ezpz
Iām going to try pure st next week on it, our comp has a lot of burst and passive cleave
rocky holly
for hive?
upper ether
is there like a trinket that can replace front and/or coral?
next solar
Raden haste trinket can replace font for some people
vast forum
mythic ra'den trinket
next solar
My heroic trinket our sins my 430 socketed font primarily because of infinite stars
But hive mind is one of those bosses where people canāt get to obsessed with parsing. Lots of factors go into that boss similar to zaqul
upper ether
So if i get raden trinket i just sim and see?
next solar
Yeah
rich raft
anyone knows how good is clockwork heart?
woeful hornet
master assassin > subterfuge with no shrouded suffocation? doing mainly M+
idle ember
I dont think anything will replace mythic coral. I'm still pugging EP for a socketed coral and folly. I'm using humming dragonscale over heroic font which is even a slight downgrade but still parsing fine without 2 on use.
hollow stone
M+ without ss is a big no no @woeful hornet
upper ether
Well yeah i have all but my front is mythic so
woeful hornet
hmm :/ thats a pickle
upper ether
And its not out simming it
So i tought maybe there was some kind of sim bait with front cuz i see some ppl use hc trinkets over front
woeful hornet
@hollow stone would a 10 ilvl decrease and losing 1x double dose be worth it to sneak in one SS trait?
hollow stone
Yes. Dd is a dead trait for m+
woeful hornet
thank you!
rigid mango
SS isn't bad at ST
Just not as good as the "mainstream"
It's still middle of the pack
shy dust
Itās good if itās a very short kill time
hollow stone
Which makes it a clear choice for m+ as you wont lose nearly as much boss dps by running ss vs eb (for example). Ideally youd want both but
Ss > eb
For m+
rigid mango
I really don't see a reason to drop SS, seli was using more TTK builds but honestly
SS feels fucking booonkers as per usual
woeful hornet
ill take the 10ilvl drop, thanks a ton applejuicce
rigid mango
I can see dropping an EB for a TTK if you want more mixed shit, but I don't wanna drop 3 SS anytime soon
hollow stone
I want ttk. But i dont think its worth 
quick egret
I dropped 3 SS 1 EB to 3EB 1 SS. I may go to 2 EB, 2 SS though
hollow stone
Fuck it. Going OL main to think less
shy dust
Only 1 SS is kinda sus.
hollow stone
quick egret
Yeah I like eb on big pulls though, feels so good to press one button lol
rigid mango
I'm so stuck on siege like
woeful hornet
so i'm assuming with my newly acquired 1xSS, suterfuge yes?
woeful hornet
tyty
rigid mango
I mean I do
I will for siege keys
p sure
I play outlaw when I feel like it but I think sin is just so much more satisfying
next solar
This is why assass is both fun and frustrating in a good way haha so much variety
quick egret
Still don't know whether I should go 2 EB and 2 SS or 3 EB and 1 ss
rigid mango
2 2
hollow stone
Yea man, the game made the decision for me at this stage. My sin m+ gear is ass compared to my OL gear š¦
short token
well i mean assassin is dominant single target outlaw is dominant aoe, if you can play both it's the most satisfying
rigid mango
Wouldn't go 3 eb 1 ss unless it's a fort ML key
hollow stone
Both are aoe for m+
rigid mango
possibly FH too
short token
ehhh
next solar
Ek SS can pump
rigid mango
Assa wins in both š
hollow stone
In fact, w m+ traits, outlaw st is likely better than sin st
short token
i wish, would save me reforging bills
rigid mango
Nah brochacho
hollow stone
You dont think so?
hollow stone
I have not, no
rigid mango
It's great
next solar
Itās amazing and kind up with blood
rigid mango
hold vend for 2nd vend + bote
next solar
Lines
hollow stone
Is it my lord n saviour?
rigid mango
Do massive dig bick dps on bosses
nuts prio on 1.5 min cd
it feels fucking nuts to play
next solar
Yup
rigid mango
Use vanish freely on trash
hollow stone
What do you like for minors then?
rigid mango
Just so u always have it up 1.5 min into bossfight
hollow stone
Lucid, pp, vop?
rigid mango
bote + lucid botd vop
next solar
Itās so much damage
rigid mango
botd situational ofc, but ye
hollow stone
Ill have to give that a go when i get sin m+ az 
next solar
And if youāre running on use mmmm
hollow stone
Sounds nice
short token
how high of keys you running as assass?
rigid mango
I play coral + torment
bleak spoke
in like a 2 min boss fight how much damage do you do zine
next solar
I did an 18 UR with that build
bleak spoke
i only play workshops as sin
rigid mango
On straight ST
wide delta
raidsbots down?
rigid mango
y
wide delta
i need to sim all my upgrades lmao
rigid mango
dw
next solar
Agreed. I donāt lose oh bosses
rigid mango
Did a 19 ToS where my weapons went red on last boss
still timed it btw
but ye, rn I win in overall and bosses
but I also don't play with nuts gaymers
I sit on par with Dj every key, I win bosses 9/10 times and I sit +- his overall, only person who's beaten me is some random 3.5k dh
next solar
It varies for me and obviously corruption plays a lot into it too
rigid mango
Who blasted my ass in a ML key
quick egret
Does outlaw still do more m+ damage than assass? And if so by how much?
next solar
Outlaw kit just better
rigid mango
Just about sin being harder to optimise and sacrificing more vital stuff like boss dmg/utility that otl bringgs
next solar
Is main reason and chain pulling
rigid mango
but I honestly don't feel that atm
rigid mango
I also play every single key with an outlaw so I get the perks of outlaw without playing it
and no, everything isn't corruption
š
short token
lol
lemme guess, you've got some rank 3 corruptions?
trust me, when you don't have infinte stars, and someone with your exact same setup does...it's fucking everything
wary ice
This just in
next solar
Imagine infinite stars in m+
wary ice
Equivalent numbers not equivalent when additional numbers introduced to one side
rigid mango
Trust me, inf stars sucks dick
short token
nah tentacle, not tendril
rigid mango
It's too high variance for me to rate it as good
honest vessel
just get 6 gushing wounds smh
honest vessel
omw
short token
here zine, take this 9% haste, chance on hit to stack 41 crit, and 12% avoidance as per haste corrupt
and give me hwat you got
bleak spoke
it's not high variance over the course of a key imo
it's just high variance on individual fights
short token
i'm talking just all around situations
rigid mango
And I play with deadly momentum too
next solar
I got t3 haste proc, itās nutty
honest vessel
yuh
rigid mango
Same.
honest vessel
i got t3 haste proc, t1 haste proc, and t1 increased haste
rigid mango
It's like, aigh.
next solar
1300 haste for 4 seconds with a 31% uptime is bonkers
rigid mango
32-37% uptime for me on nozth
quick egret
I have so many deadly momentum 3
short token
if 9% haste beats infinite stars than my sims are way fucking off
quick egret
Is that better for outlaw?
bleak spoke
idk man seems pretty consistently good to me @rigid mango https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/XnhNB3Kvj7Crgd8L#boss=2328&difficulty=5&wipes=1&type=damage-done&cutoff=3&source=19
short token
so is my details
bleak spoke
there was like, one pull it literally did 4 million
but most of the pulls it was consistent
short token
showing infinte stars doing 20-25% of people's dmg on single target
rigid mango
I've got entirely diff experience w it lettuce
rigid mango
Bucknutties, no one cares about inf stars
next solar
I donāt think Iāve ever personally seen it that high
bleak spoke
and spiked 160 or something
rigid mango
it sucks outside of like 2 encounters
hollow stone
IS is so situational that its basically poop or just to show a big sim
rigid mango
Exactly.
bleak spoke
idk the other rogue in my raid plays IS and it's pretty good for him
short token
lol
next solar
Thatās great.
short token
idk what these guys are lookin at, it's dominant on every single target fight in nya
next solar
All 3 of them
rough veldt
@short token, haters basically
rigid mango
On most of relevant bosses
rigid mango
It's good on maut, shad, xanesh(?) raden (?)
bleak spoke
https://i.imgur.com/bzjCu4E.png like this is really reasonable
next solar
If you get t3 on a 475 piece then GG
rigid mango
then ye that's fine
short token
well of course, i'm not talkin about heroic bosses
bleak spoke
like it did almost as much damage as me hitting up five ranks of mind flay
fleet anchor
IS is bad on some fights but definitely better on more than 2 fights tbf.
next solar
Rng is rng
hollow stone
Wait, corruption depends on what other options you have available to you?!
rigid mango
If you pick inf star and you have a better option you're semi-trolling on a lot of bosses š
hollow stone
Groundbreaking
bleak spoke
https://i.imgur.com/NdKX1oS.png both of these are top 50 for boss damage (mine was actually rank 2 yesterday but shrug)
like he's running literally 40 less corruption than me
vapid terrace
What corruption do you run after resistances?
bleak spoke
i'm like at 56 lmao
sand whale
IS has the potential but same I wouldn't use it for prog
hollow stone
Id use it for shad prog
rigid mango
And that's a lot of corruption that people are getting
bleak spoke
oh on vex you definitely shouldn't run it probably
rigid mango
For that dps?
bleak spoke
like vex has too much side stuff it pops on
sand whale
did maut and it hit the add a few times, didn't even end up with max stack IS in the end
next solar
Comparing added raw dmg to damage increases overall by star corruption isnāt really fair to negate
rigid mango
raden I can see it same for xanesh
bleak spoke
i dont' doubt it's atually okay for nzoth
rigid mango
Shadhar obv great
next solar
Stat corruption
bleak spoke
cuz the burn is long
rigid mango
It's aight for nzoth probs on the basis of 15 min fight xd
fleet anchor
IS can be good on Wrathion, Maut, Xanesh, Shadhar, Vexonia boss damage, Raden, and sometimes Carapace boss damage.
bleak spoke
@fleet anchor how is it good on vexi tho
rigid mango
no thanks
fleet anchor
Itās better on Vex tha. It looks.
bleak spoke
like i guess if you're lucky?
next solar
All those wasted procs to adds
rigid mango
You have to RNG shit onto it all the time?
fleet anchor
IS is literally on the top parse for Asn on Vex boss damage.
bleak spoke
its hard to imagine a scenario where it's actually good on vexi
alright
but like how lucky was that
hollow stone
This is why i never look at top parses -_-
drifting cloud
well ok thats just a highroll most likely, otherwise it wouldnt be the top parse
next solar
I can get 5 buffs back to back to back as outlaw too and be top parser
fleet anchor
The question I would ask is why you think it would be bad on Vex if you are looking at only boss damage.
rigid mango
It's bad on boss dmg too
fleet anchor
Just because it can proc on the adds doesnāt make it bad.
fleet anchor
As long as it stacks high enough by P3 it is going to be good.
rigid mango
Add damage = irrelevant = star proc is irrelevant
sand whale
but that's the catch
rigid mango
Yeah, "as long"
sand whale
IF it stacks high enough
rigid mango
Dude wat
fleet anchor
Adds existing on the fight doesnāt make IS useless. Thatās just not good logic.
hollow stone
Yes it is
next solar
Wasted potential prio damage
next solar
Our main use in raid at this point is prio/sustain
final dust
I mean it also depends on what other corruption you have available
rigid mango
His inf star did ON AVERAGE 200 dps more than my 1 GW
and his cost him 60 more corr
how is that good?
hollow stone
Should go spend my whole paycheck on slots because āit might roll wellā
fleet anchor
Wasted potential damage in P1/2 doesnāt make it less good in P3. Unless you get massive unlucky.
rigid mango
No
final dust
If u only have IS not using it is just lost dmg
rigid mango
It's bad on average
good if you are lucky
Other way round
It's not "unlucky" to proc on others, it's "lucky" to proc on the boss. Consistantly.
hollow stone
If it procs on adds, that lowers your p3 dmg due to fewer IS stacks
rigid mango
IS is good on classes with high hste regardless of fight, essentially
fleet anchor
More likely people perform poorly with IS due to not having strong Haste setups.
bleak spoke
cuz the burn is like 1:30-1:45 for most guilds right
fleet anchor
Than adds.
hollow stone
Yes, obviously using āno corruptionā vs āwhatever corruptionā is a dps loss
rigid mango
Yeah but this is like
aaaaaaaaa
You're saying it's good in the niche situation of having a lot of haste and being lucky to rng on the boss
But everyone doesn't 1. have that 2. be that lucky
hollow stone
Rip koji. I liked your discussion earlier about wv but man youre losing credibility by the word
rigid mango
- it's prog I don't want my boss damage down to RNG
Like
Having my prog boss dps be that high variance sounds like a real bad time
Compared to the consistancy of GW/Expidient etc.
bleak spoke
like obviously gushing is the best zine yeah but right now i think i'm comparing IS to something a little more accessible like mind flays right
fleet anchor
Iām not really overly concerned about that Applejuice. You can think what you like. š
rigid mango
I'd say both are really high variance
bleak spoke
cuz we can reasonably expect a mindflay off of carapace at some point
but mindflay always goes on your primary target when it procs
fleet anchor
People are way too dramatic and binary about all these things.
hollow stone
Youre being binary here goon
bleak spoke
yeah zine but not everyone has gushing
rigid mango
I know
fleet anchor
Everything is either āshitā or āamazingā itās actually just not very logical.
hollow stone
Its good cause top log has it
bleak spoke
i don't think it's shit koji
sand whale
my guild hasn't seen 1 gushing yet XD
hollow stone
Youre literally doing what that bote guy did to you a few hrs ago
rigid mango
No, I'm saying it's a lot worse on fights where it can proc randomly
bleak spoke
i just think it's probably higher variance than mindflay by alot
short token
yeah my point was totally mistaken, my options to go from a single target trait like IS or GS to an AOE trait don't exist, and it punishes me
rigid mango
yeah I'd rather have mindflay
fleet anchor
Of corpse people will ideally run Dagger proc because why not.
rigid mango
than IS on that fight
short token
you obviously have 2 pieces of a great trait
fleet anchor
I donāt agree that people running IS would be ātrollingā their raid.
short token
i'd trade my 9% haste for a GS in a heartbeat
bleak spoke
i did in fact say that i thought it was better on a lot of fights than people think but i don't think vexiona is one of them
it's definitely not trolling your raid
rigid mango
9% haste is like bis buck