assassination

[bleak spoke]

But it might have something to do with outlaw doing weird jobs in keys on big pulls

[tropic ocean]

so yeah basically useless for aoe

[vestal wren]

lets do ct for the memes

assuming you go all in 3ttk with ma you are close to same in prio btw.

[chilly marsh]

@tropic ocean i know but it still did 4% my dmg on a tiranical week

[tropic ocean]

now imagine what a trinket will do

[rigid mango]

I don't think CT is a meme tbh

[tropic ocean]

that does something on aoe

[rigid mango]

I think it's potentially really good

[vestal wren]

its probably rly good with 8 targets

[chilly marsh]

prob not the better for sure

[tropic ocean]

I mean you cant really see flat % numbers from stat/proc trinkets unless they do dmg

[chilly marsh]

yes thats why it might worth a sim

[tropic ocean]

but what u can probably do is just sim ur different trinkets and select 5-6 boss targets paatchwerk and see

[chilly marsh]

to confirm

[tropic ocean]

it wont be super accurate but it will show the difference between the trinkets at least i aoe

in*

[chilly marsh]

since fu is testing many m+ profiles anyway

[tropic ocean]

I think a high ilvl socketed dice in combination with spyglass is very decent as u just get the buffs procced u cant "misplay" them and im having good results with it all the time

font is giga as well but you're reliant on other players to make it good

[vestal wren]

ready for the meme?
sim: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/51WyNdfxqJXbcyVnPRtBD2/simc

i mean ct is ahead on overall

🙈

[rigid mango]

By that little?

[tropic ocean]

not worth it for little gain

[vestal wren]

just dont look at prio

[tropic ocean]

and losing 8k st

def not worth it

[vestal wren]

ye, i expected more but seems like blizz did a good job undertuning it

it only keeps 2 bleeds up

if thats what you ask for

[tropic ocean]

aoe rotation should/need to keep 4 bleeds up

and keep ct up at all times as well

[vestal wren]

no

apperently its a loss if you do so

[tropic ocean]

O_o?

[vestal wren]

i tested that yesterday

[tropic ocean]

but then the apl is flawed

cuz when I go to the dummy for 3min and not keep 4 bleeds up and just spam fok

[vestal wren]

it still applies the subterfuge garrotes, but would only keep 2 bleeds up outside of that

[tropic ocean]

i do significantly less dps

than keeping 4 bleed and spamming fok

[vestal wren]

and it was a slight gain overall and in prio

[tropic ocean]

without any movement

[rigid mango]

It doesn't need 5 bleeds fuu

It should only need 4

With bote minor being up nearly 100%

[vestal wren]

i think ausgelebt means dropping env entirely?

[tropic ocean]

how is sim doing more dps

having only 2 bleeds up and running out of energy

instead of keeping 4 bleeds up and not running out of energy

i will just go to the dummy and log it

[vestal wren]

prio damage will drop if you change that

assuming you play around prio damage as sin

[chilly marsh]

sometimes you dont need to prio

[vestal wren]

so, remove env from the rotation and re-run?

(and allow fok to be used as filler)

[chilly marsh]

myabe one evenon to keep the extra poison

not focusing it

[vestal wren]

kk

[chilly marsh]

with 0 env you posions procs will go down too

[tropic ocean]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/KDPmMXH2QNh743cd/#fight=2&type=damage-done&source=1

first one 2 bleeds just spamming fok

2nd one 4 bleeds just spamming fok

(i accidently pressed ct in the end so remove that 1k dps)

46k dps 2 bleeds 60k dps 4 bleeds

with 2 bleeds u miss a lot of gcd due to being empty of energy

like despite having 11 more casts of rupture in 4 bleed one I still have more fok casts as well thats how much u run out of energy with 2 bleeds

🤔

[vestal wren]

the 4 bleed limit does not apply to subterfuge garrote, keep that in mind

mainly limits the use of rupture spread

[tropic ocean]

yeah

but that means you mainly run out of energy

once the garrotes drop

like in the log i linked I open with 3x garrote rupture then just spam fok

and apply 2/4 bleeds when garrotes fall off

14k dps difference

it will be a bigger dps difference on higher target count cause of missed fok casts

78 fok vs 94 fok in same timeframe

is very big

[timber meadow]

So apparently azshara is immune for like a couple globals at beginning of P2 - does anyone know if rupture / garrote still get applied during this window?

[tropic ocean]

90 casts vs 118 casts

so with 2 bleeds up missing 28 gcd

over 2minutes

@timber meadow you can apply it ye

usually what I do is channel font while decree ends shadowstep azshara

apply bleeds build cp vendetta tb bote vanish pump

by the time she is active u ready setup for ur pump

[vestal wren]

sim:https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/ec6gvnxt69EDm5LCbZYC47/simc

prio damage loss is quite big

but overall def. went up noticable

[bleak spoke]

okay how about fok spam with diver's follies equipped

[tropic ocean]

but is it

[bleak spoke]

cuz that's become a new build fuu

[tropic ocean]

with 2 bleed or 4 bleed

[vestal wren]

4 bleeds

[bleak spoke]

you play 3 eb and you slap foks

[tropic ocean]

and which one is 2 bleed?

[timber meadow]

@tropic ocean okay that’s what I wanted to know. I do the same thing but wasn’t paying attention to whether garrote and rupture were applying

[vestal wren]

the old one

the green one labled "fok spam" is the new one

[timber meadow]

And was about to yell out a big yikes if they weren’t lol

[tropic ocean]

yeah im trying to find the one that is fok spam 2 bleeds vs fok spam 4 bleeds

cuz u said that apl only keeps 2 bleeds up

but that is giga dps loss in aoe

[bleak spoke]

yeah

[vestal wren]

i can do 2 bleeds too

[bleak spoke]

nah 4 bleeds is important

[tropic ocean]

so might want to change apl for aoe sim situation

[vestal wren]

i changed it to 4 as you requested

i can do 2 for fok spam too, just need to re-run with the parameter change

[bleak spoke]

i think 4 is accurate

[tropic ocean]

cuz if x target sim with 3 eb traits just keeps 2 bleeds up in sim

it will be a lot lower dps than u actually do

[bleak spoke]

though with 6% haste maybe check 5 bleeds

[tropic ocean]

nah

I just did it in real, gcd locked

with 4 bleeds

[vestal wren]

moment, ill re run both with 2/4

so you can compare

[tropic ocean]

I did 118 casts in 2 min so

[vestal wren]

will be a bigger table then

[tropic ocean]

2 casts off from gcd lock casts but thats personally error I suppose

[bleak spoke]

can you check it with diver's follies in both hands fuu

that's an actual meme but i think morning's played it in some bleeding edge keys

[tropic ocean]

morning is also playing hb and pumping

but idk how to sim hb properly

[bleak spoke]

nah i think ct is the standard now

[tropic ocean]

as u have downtime in dungeon where it stacks higher than the 20%

but no clue how to accurately sim that

[bleak spoke]

that's the problem you can't sim the sort of downtime yout get

[tropic ocean]

I tried playing hb in some freeholds and when its full stacked with bote on double pack after second boss freehold

I open 400k+ dps

[vestal wren]

moment, letme re-sim the 2/4 bleeds discussion

[bleak spoke]

aus do you have diver's folliles

[tropic ocean]

overall was similar to poison bomb but it was different groups so not really accurate

only 430 one unsocketed

[bleak spoke]

unlucky

i don't have the azerite to play the build

[tropic ocean]

if u have better ones u can just gimme the string and I will give u my string with divers

[bleak spoke]

change the enchants btw

main_hand=,id=168900,enchant_id=6148,bonus_id=4800/1517/4786,context=6
off_hand=,id=168900,enchant_id=5962,bonus_id=4799/1502/4786,context=5

it's a 445 and a 430 one

[tropic ocean]

https://pastebin.com/v4kX2Gjw

there u go

can change the enchants or using 2x 445 as u like rest is my sin gear

[bleak spoke]

if fuu would be so kind to sim that after he does 2/4 bleeds 😉

[vestal wren]

good that i got raidbots premium XD

[tropic ocean]

i just sim normal raidbots 4 target 1x with folly

1x with normal daggers lets see

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/4iv6SmqhAZFtopMtJfgzDb

daggers

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/vkAb6vpFSMEJs5jRTDG9vp

follys

6k gain on aoe

[bleak spoke]

jesus

that's like 8%

btw that has versa nav on it

and not deadly nav

might be even more

[vestal wren]

so, 4 vs. 2 bleeds

So essentially, you trade off prio damage with more bleeds

for minimal gain on aoe

[bleak spoke]

that's not much of a gain on ae

aoe

[vestal wren]

^

[bleak spoke]

i'm really surprised actually

[vestal wren]

thats why i went with 4 -> 2 yesterday

after i found that out during simming

[bleak spoke]

i wonder if it's the act of maintaining the bleed that loses out on aoe

[vestal wren]

probably

[bleak spoke]

like the dpet on the use of that rupture

vs. just waiting

so as long as you squeeze out maybe like 2-3 more foks vs putting out like 6-8 ruptures on a pull

[vestal wren]

i am still stunned (like yesterday) that sin with ma + 3x ttk can actually compete on prio damage

[bleak spoke]

on prio it's not that shocking

cuz like

the setup is bleeds into foks + envenoms

you get these incredibly strong tb windows

[chilly marsh]

@vestal wren can you test trinkets ?

[vestal wren]

like look at this diffrence

[bleak spoke]

that kinda owns

[vestal wren]

yes esp. hence the focus was so high on prio

last season

i assume aszhara trinket will be big

what trinket do you want to test?

[chilly marsh]

Harlan's, Spyglass, inkpood, coral and Azshara's Font

anyone remember other good trinket?

[vestal wren]

you have harlans and spyglas

so essentially switch 1 for font/coral?

[rigid mango]

What's "default ttk" in that?

[vestal wren]

i just removed that in the last pic XD

[chilly marsh]

hum yes dont think 2 on use trinkets are playable in m+

[vestal wren]

huh?

ss mut is essentially never using fok

i just added that apl change to see how valid the argument to use mut for prio is

problem with that is that you would need other azerite traits for that to work out

[ashen oriole]

its not even aoe

[vestal wren]

like with DD it suddenly becomes top of the list

[tropic ocean]

?

with 3 eb 3ss on 8 targets

mutilate wont beat anything

what

[vestal wren]

oh, i understand it

[knotty shard]

So if im a level 116 assassin rogue trying to get to 120, would I want to push quests?

[tropic ocean]

@vestal wren there must be something wrong if the both gree marks are 2 bleeds vs 4 bleeds

[vestal wren]

but ye, its wired

[tropic ocean]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/316923750073499648/635937845869019166/unknown.png
idk what this sim does but in aoe spam fok

4 bleed > 2 bleed big time

and the bigger the target count goes the higher the difference will be

[knotty shard]

I just came back 4 days ago to WoW since December so I dont have any friends 😂

Na xd

[vestal wren]

probably sth wrong with labling

not sure need to re-check

[tropic ocean]

and theres also no way in 8 target situation mutilate will do close to or more dmg than fok

[vestal wren]

bc. i had to re-run the sim and i just copy/pasted the copy section from raidbots and changed things there

as raidbots did not save my strings^^

[tropic ocean]

like in 4 targets my average fok cast is already 20k

[vestal wren]

after i run the initial comparison

[tropic ocean]

not accounting eb

[vestal wren]

ahh

the "only mut"

does not use mut

bc. i added the fok condition

XD

[tropic ocean]

yikes

[vestal wren]

for the fok spam

[tropic ocean]

so which is 4 bleed vs 2 bleed

cuz i totally lost track of anything

[bleak spoke]

@tropic ocean https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/vmh9hAH67bsPL1vh14AunW

[vestal wren]

all fine, just ignore the "only mut" parts

[bleak spoke]

Holy diver

[tropic ocean]

yeah diver would be pretty big if u could use mutilate with 1 being in off hand

[vestal wren]

still wired tbh

[bleak spoke]

I mean the alternative is you just sac some st

[tropic ocean]

"some"

u will do 20k on bosses XD

[bleak spoke]

More than that

Fok costs less than muti

[tropic ocean]

yeah and u get 1 cp per cast no?

[vestal wren]

not sure why the "only mut" part is higher

[bleak spoke]

And if you’re on a 2t boss then you don’t lose much at all

1-2

[vestal wren]

probably bc. it uses less bleeds

[tropic ocean]

i dont understand the screenshot

like what are the 2 green marked boxes

[vestal wren]

both green boxes

use the fok spam rotation

the other one is the normal rotation

[tropic ocean]

and 1 is with 4 bleeds and other one is with 2 bleeds

?

[vestal wren]

yes

[tropic ocean]

thats impossible

[bleak spoke]

I’d like to see a sample sequence yeah

[vestal wren]

tl;dr: outside of subterfuge keep up 2 vs 4

[tropic ocean]

your sim is wrong

[bleak spoke]

Cuz that is inconsistent with the conventional way to play it

[tropic ocean]

i literally did it on live server and logged it

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/KDPmMXH2QNh743cd/

[vestal wren]

i posted sims XD

[tropic ocean]

keeping up 2 bleeds and spamming fok is 15k dps loss on 4 targets already

yeah and the sim is wrong

[vestal wren]

only did not for the last 2 pics or so, bc. i essentially just run 2-3 more for them

[tropic ocean]

you are constantly out of energy

with 2 bleeds up and have empty gcds

where u cant do anything

[bleak spoke]

Yeah that’s the main confusion for me

But I do think it depends on exactly how out of energy you are maybe

[tropic ocean]

2 bleed energy

https://prnt.sc/pmfnih

u are essentially out of energy where u cant fill gcd

[bleak spoke]

Is the 4 bleed sim garroting

Cuz that could be why

[tropic ocean]

so essentially the sin game play is 3garrote into rupture and when garrotes fall off you spread 4 bleeds or 2 bleeds (what I did in the log)

and you are constantly out of energy where u cant fill a gcd with 2 bleeds

resulting in 28 gcds wasted

[bleak spoke]

by 4 bleeds we mean "rupture unless you have vanish garrote"

and you only refresh on pandemic

[tropic ocean]

yeah I know

I did only refresh on pandemic

[bleak spoke]

no i'm making it clear for fuu

[tropic ocean]

it wont matter if you vanish and regarrote

2 bleeds will be the same dps loss over 4 bleeds

[knotty shard]

Whats assassination rogue rotation

[tropic ocean]

no matter the source of the bleed itself

[bleak spoke]

so a sample sequence is something like
g g g r fok fok fok r fok fok fok r fok fok fok r van g g g fok fok fok fok r something like that

you overbleed a bit near the start of the rotation so it spaces out the ruptures

and you sit in ep at the start of the pull by default

[vestal wren]

this was with 2 bleeds fok spam:
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/78JYfTXLzjNYQJJwKdiUui/simc

but ye it essentially fok's a ton

XD

[bleak spoke]

that has focused azerite beam fuu

;-;

[vestal wren]

hmm

[bleak spoke]

we play bote we play bote!

[vestal wren]

lol ye

uff

the other sim has bote

[bleak spoke]

okay so i guess you end up pooling a lil by defaut when you have it

[vestal wren]

yikes, need to be some copy/pasta mistake

moment lets rerun with bote

[bleak spoke]

so you actually end up with a lot more banked energy than the other sim

[tropic ocean]

where can u see ability log

in that thing

[bleak spoke]

your gas has 5-6 more foks worth of mileage

you go to action priority list

and you hit sample sequence table

at the bottom

[tropic ocean]

where is it in the link fuu linked

ah got it

[bleak spoke]

ALSO FUU THIS IS CASTING VENDETTA MAN

mannnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn

[tropic ocean]

o wait i dont

where the fk is the ability log

[rigid mango]

simc

[tropic ocean]

ah there

[bleak spoke]

there's no no vendetta conditional in

monkaS

[tropic ocean]

man

this thing is overbuffing empowered garrotes

[vestal wren]

with bote
fok spam 2 bleeds:https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/gdMJirTcURyGC4zLKuEZef/simc
fok spam 4 bleeds:https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/ps3B3qpvN3NtAnZR6cH6Hw/simc

need to wait for sim to finish tho

[tropic ocean]

this sim is as worse as one can play

and nowhere near actual dps or gameplay

[bleak spoke]

could probably argue that on 4t is the last time vendetta might be a gain still on overall aus

beyond that it's pretty neutral unless you fuck up and need energy?

[tropic ocean]

u can see from it

that in sample ability log

it is missing many gcds as well

which you dont with 4 bleeds up

[vestal wren]

and the fixed image (green = fok spam rotation)

[tropic ocean]

so first 1 is 4 bleeds 2nd 1 2 bleeds?

yeah 4k loss in sim

[vestal wren]

yes

[tropic ocean]

its wrong, but still a loss

[vestal wren]

i mean, it seems logical that

cutting bleeds is a loss if you spamm fok

[tropic ocean]

the longer the duration of the fight / the higher the target count the more 2 will lose dps over 1

and essentially you will always have 4 or more enemies in mythic+

except for maybe kr/tos

[vestal wren]

its 1 min only so thats sth to keep in mind

[tropic ocean]

aight i'll go 1min on the dummy cya in a bit

[vestal wren]

the good part is

with bote outlaw and sin are about equal

sin might be even slightly higher

but thats only if you sacrafice massively in st

[chilly marsh]

15k AOE dps again and 10k prio loss for fok spam right ?

[vestal wren]

comes down to your build

[chilly marsh]

using default SS

the top one

[tropic ocean]

dont trust these sims

[vestal wren]

If you go with the extremes:

3TTK 3EB:
156,3k
57,3k + 50%

3SS 3EB
186,5k + 19%
38,4k

aoe vs prio

i mean its kinda relatable.
If you only fok and maintain bleeds you essentially lose massive on priority (just like shown)
if you maintain low bleed amount and use Env more you gain more prio

[tropic ocean]

the more interesting thing is how sim manages to do such dps while mainting only 2 bleeds

when I do it on dummy for 1 min

4 bleeds is 60k dps 2 bleeds is 52k dps already

on 4 target

[cobalt pelican]

it's a 1minute sim with garrotes excluded right

so that covers like.. half of the sim

[tropic ocean]

i just did it with

[cobalt pelican]

i'm not entirely caught up on the conversation

[tropic ocean]

garroting 3 and restealthing garroting 3

[vestal wren]

i mean as you see dps is big at start and gets shit towards the end

[tropic ocean]

after that I only maintained 2 ruptures and 4 ruptures respectively for the rest

yeah but its the same for 4 bleeds

[vestal wren]

[tropic ocean]

big at start but doesn'T fall of as much as you dont lose fok casts

[vestal wren]

4 bleeds != 4 ruptures

garrote is a bleed

[tropic ocean]

yes I know

im not stupid

g g g r

when garrote falls of g g g r again

then keep 2 ruptures up

vs keeping 4 ruptures up

[cobalt pelican]

i think the best way to sim the actual scenario you're thinking about would be to just disable garrote altogether and see how many ruptures are required to do the most damage in a 1min sim

but eh

[tropic ocean]

you never regarrote out of subterfuge

(on aoe)

[cobalt pelican]

that's not actually what the current apl is but yeah, that's what's recommended

[tropic ocean]

regarroting without subterfuge is doing

45 energy for 25k dmg

instead of 30k dmg for 25 energy

so if the apl does that, apl is really stupid

[cobalt pelican]

i'm not arguing whether it's right or wrong really

the basic question was

after subt window

is 2rupt 3rupt or 4rupt optimal for dps

[vestal wren]

dissable rupture huh, not sure i can follow

[cobalt pelican]

right?

[vestal wren]

also sim starts to energy starve even with 4 bleeds

[tropic ocean]

you dont energy starve with 4 bleeds

in fok rotation

these sims are so scuffed idk what to say

[cobalt pelican]

the only thing that really interferes with energy regen besides haste and venemous is lucids proc rate right

[tropic ocean]

yeah

[vestal wren]

energy starve means not gcd capd

[tropic ocean]

im literally doing that on dummy and I can hit a spell every gcd when having 4 ruptures up

[vestal wren]

but just look at the sample sequence... its not like there is to much it can do wrong

[tropic ocean]

its using garrote out of subterfuge

which is wrong

it is using toxic blade

you dont use tb on aoe

[vestal wren]

yes but having 4 ruptures up is a diffrent scenario

[tropic ocean]

how does it matter if you have 3 garrote 1 rupture or 4 rupture

u never run out of energy with 4 bleeds up

[vestal wren]

lets check

[tropic ocean]

sim is even using arcane torrent which I dont

and im not running out of energy

[vestal wren]

its not like the sim runs out of energy for a long time

so it could be just your reaction time

for TB, ye could dissable it too

[tropic ocean]

https://prnt.sc/pmg1e1

this my energy with 4 bleeds

literally can press a spell every gcd

the only situation where you drop low or need to pool a little bit before is when using 3x garrote in a row

[vestal wren]

does not look like sim is energy starving either tho 🤷

[tropic ocean]

as 3x garrote is 135 energy

[vestal wren]

only with 2 bleeds it is

[tropic ocean]

with 2 bleeds you starve a lot yeah

[vestal wren]

ye, so whats the point?

[tropic ocean]

as mentioned earlier I missed over 2 minutes 28 casts compared to 4 bleeds

[cobalt pelican]

is the 2bleed sim the last one linked

[tropic ocean]

wdym whats the point

[cobalt pelican]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/4HVsx4SnfcHUuHBcu8jSYB/simc

or is it a different link

[tropic ocean]

u cant use 2 bleeds or u will rip ur dps

so sim should not use 2 bleeds

but 4

[vestal wren]

i mean sim shows that

2 bleeds sim lower

[tropic ocean]

and sim shouldnt regarrote out of subterfuge as well

cuz rupture>garrote

[vestal wren]

whats the point of running subterfuge then?

[tropic ocean]

?

it greatly increases your garrote dps

from stealth

and synergizes really good with shrouded suffocation traits

[vestal wren]

it only applies 2x garrote over the fight

then

not seeing a point in running subterfuge then

[tropic ocean]

yeah and you should never garrote unless you are in subterfuge

but the sim garrotes without it

which is bad

[vestal wren]

not sure i can follow your logic

[tropic ocean]

you only ever use garrote in aoe from stealthed

[vestal wren]

so you run a single trait to have 2 full "buffed" subterfuges

[tropic ocean]

????

the sim you linked

uses garrote while not stealthed

[vestal wren]

its not about the sim

its about your playstyle

[tropic ocean]

my playstyle is normal sin playstyle

[vestal wren]

why would i run subterfuge

[tropic ocean]

3x garrote from stealth

[vestal wren]

if i dont use garrote

during it

[tropic ocean]

u do use it during it

but sim uses it outside of it

are u drunk? o.O

[vestal wren]

not during subterfuge = 1 garrote at start of fight and 1 time with vanish

with that use case of subterfuge the talent choice becomes highly questionable

[tropic ocean]

????? i dont get what you are saying

[vestal wren]

that you dont make sense

XD

[nimble tinsel]

I mean, it's getting precisely the same amount of use as MA would

[vestal wren]

^

[tropic ocean]

your sim: 0:18 garrote without subterfuge, 0:28 garrote without subterfuge, 0:35 garrote without subterfuge0:49 garrote without subterfuge

if you are not stealthed

using garrote is bad

and you should use rupture instead

idk how I can explain it any better

[vestal wren]

dpe per garrote is higher

still does not answer my question

[tropic ocean]

your sim keeps using garrote from non stealth

and you dont do that

[vestal wren]

you keep missing the point i complain about

you did say: dont use garrote during subterfuge

[tropic ocean]

nope

[vestal wren]

why?

[tropic ocean]

i never said that

AusgelebtToday at 11:32 PM
yeah and you should never garrote unless you are in subterfuge

🤷

AusgelebtToday at 11:31 PM
and sim shouldnt regarrote out of subterfuge as well
cuz rupture>garrote

[vestal wren]

missunderstood your point then

[nimble tinsel]

He is saying ONLY use garrote DURING subterfuge

[tropic ocean]

ofc you always garrote from stealth 3x else why would u run subterfuge

but sim is using garrote without subter buff

which is wrong

[timber meadow]

one of those builds and one of those spends ... why would you be using one in place of the other?

[vestal wren]

the "only mut" one should do right ^^

[tropic ocean]

because u only use the bleeds in aoe

to get energy

and rupture costs 25 energy

while garrote costs 45 energy

[vestal wren]

yes

[tropic ocean]

both are irrelevant dps wise

[vestal wren]

only mut should only use garrote during subter

[tropic ocean]

as the highest dps per gcd is fok

u only use them to generate resource

[timber meadow]

eveen out of sub? feel like garrotes carry dps hard

[tropic ocean]

out of sub garrote does no carry dps

as it dont benefit from subter and dont benefit from shrouded either

[timber meadow]

oh okay

[tropic ocean]

4 point rupture si 30k dmg

garrote is 25k dmg

one is 25energy one is 45 energy

[timber meadow]

i never play assa in keys but when I look at assa dmg breakdowns I feel like i usually see garrote near the top?

or no

[vestal wren]

i mean, all just comes down to adjusting apl

to do sth diffrent then you expect it to

[tropic ocean]

for that aoe things apl seems really scuffed/inefficient

by the time being I think its impossible to sim m + properly

[vestal wren]

i think you are just stupid about sims

and i know where this is comming from ^^

[tropic ocean]

from actually playing the spec?

I mean give me a logic reason why sim is using garrote over rupture

unbuffed

when essentially bleeds in aoe are just used to feed you energy

I mean you can theorycraft all you want I linked u logs u can see my cast everything from it

[vestal wren]

i mean, creating bullshit is easy 😉

[tropic ocean]

doing what sim does is literally big dps loss

if u dont trust my log log in the game do the same

see for yourself

I mean im telling you whats the issue and u can read the dmg from the spells and sim just does it wrong

if you cant see the flaw idk

[timber meadow]

wait so for AOE we shouldn't listen to sim?

[chilly marsh]

anyway let's changed topic... about about the trinkets @vestal wren

[vestal wren]

na, ausgelebt just expected a hacky apl change to play perfect

so instead of putting in any effort to change that he just bullshits over simc

[nimble tinsel]

I mean if you were versed in setting up an APL I feel like it should be pretty easy to check what is being suggested since you are literally only ever going to use 4 abilities in that entire rotation (Gar, Rup, Vanish, FoK)

[tropic ocean]

idk whats wrong with you today fuu

literally

[vestal wren]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/ucTTSbdUtr1iForjPqcDGg/simc

• removed TB
• restricted garrote

[chilly marsh]

minimal gain

[tropic ocean]

im not shitting on sims I essentially told u what it is doing wrong

[vestal wren]

you essentially told me that sims are scuffed and can never be good

so

[tropic ocean]

no

I said u this sims are scuffed

and that this sims are wrong rotationally

and I explained you why too

[vestal wren]

so, what else to fix?

to unscuff sims?

[chilly marsh]

it didnt even change that much man

2k dps

[cobalt pelican]

from the sim you just linked the most notable change would be to cap rupture

at least from 'generally accepted' player recommendations

so garrote+rupture combined total 4 bleeds

meaning while garrote subterfuge buffed bleeds are up, 1 rupture, and when they are not, 4 ruptures

[vestal wren]

it should do that

[cobalt pelican]

i'm really bad at reading sample outputs but there's a loooot of ruptures

this is prio_=0? right

seems like it's rupturing every of the 8 mobs basically permanently

[vestal wren]

thats bc. we drop garrote

in fav. of rupture

[cobalt pelican]

yeah but at some points there's like 6 ruptures up

which is 2 more than is needed

[vestal wren]

wait, that sounds wrong

[cobalt pelican]

i'm not saying it's neccessarily better, i'm just telling you what 'players recommend'

meaning bleeds are not treated as damage

[chilly marsh]

why using strife 3° slot instead of protocol ?

[cobalt pelican]

and are treated solely as energy income

[vestal wren]

bc. thats what was in the slot

[cobalt pelican]

meaning they play 3garrote+1rupture from subterfuge, then 4rupture after garrotes fall off

and NO MORE than 4 ruptures

at any point

[vestal wren]

ye it should do that

[chilly marsh]

oh youre using his profile

[vestal wren]

but let me try to fix it

[tropic ocean]

im in key atm i will answer in few min

[vestal wren]

i can switch it to protocol

moment

[cobalt pelican]

maybe i'm j ust reading the sample string wrong, it's hard to keep track of all the ruptures

but at about 40sec it's rupturing the 8th ad while the 3rd rupture was only ~13 seconds ago

[vestal wren]

so: blood major, lucid + protocol?

[chilly marsh]

fu could you normalize item level ?

IE all items 445

[vestal wren]

i can do that ye

[chilly marsh]

would also help a normalized ilvl when changing trinkets

[vestal wren]

moment, let me hard limit rupture to 4 max

[tropic ocean]

not sure why you wanna switch to protocol but sure

[cobalt pelican]

limiting it to 4 would be good, but can you just make sure it's 4 'bleeds' and not 4 ruptures

so it's not opening gggrrrr

i can probably do it myself in a sec

[vestal wren]

it should be 4 ruptures limited

ohh

fml

i forgot to use priority_rotation=1

[cobalt pelican]

yeah i thought so

that's why i asked

[chilly marsh]

protocol does a aoe proc might be worth it

[vestal wren]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/rFRwc8WTh2wX9NBFRn1hc6

needs some secs to finish

[grave elk]

ravenholdt or wowhead for guide?

[vestal wren]

wowhead

[cobalt pelican]

wowhead is more up to date, both are servicable

[tropic ocean]

@chilly marsh protocol is good dmg wise

the flaw with it is the radius

[cobalt pelican]

hm

[tropic ocean]

it has a 8yrd radius

[cobalt pelican]

that's still a 4k dps loss

over just

rupturing a shitload

[tropic ocean]

while conflict is just perm dmg buff

[cobalt pelican]

kinda makes sense to me

[vestal wren]

ngl but this is just

[cobalt pelican]

from my own anecdotal play i think overrupturing compared to recommended is better just because of elaborate even though people say don't play around it

[tropic ocean]

@vestal wren it will be a bigger dps loss

as I only have c&s r2

😉

[vestal wren]

🤔 its also r2 then

letme check input string

[tropic ocean]

yeah so

[vestal wren]

ye both lvl 2

[tropic ocean]

oh ok

anyways this is true if all mobs are within 8yrds of each other

[vestal wren]

so, what else to fix?

[tropic ocean]

thats the main issue with protocol, dmg wise its fine

[cobalt pelican]

mmm

the sim you just linked looks good

[chilly marsh]

i prefer it because it does dmg and heals you too

[cobalt pelican]

only difference noticable is

priority_rotation="1" uses 5 bleeds as its cap

players tend to use 4 currently

and i'd run them together

[vestal wren]

it uses 4, i lowered it to 4

[cobalt pelican]

ah

one sec

this is 5 right? is the first just falling off fairly soon

[vestal wren]

it could be

[cobalt pelican]

it's a 5cp rupture so uh

18 seconds? idk i'm not ingame

20? i'm sure someone with a better memory than me knows

[vestal wren]

should i try turn it to 3

?

[cobalt pelican]

mmm

i think it's only doing 5

because the first is in it's 'refreshable' stage

[vestal wren]

5 cp is 16 secs

[cobalt pelican]

yea so

from 20s

so 29s

[vestal wren]

so ~5 sec is refresh

[cobalt pelican]

would put it

in it's pandemic window

so the sim just refreshes it again

i think that's fine

[chilly marsh]

nvm its 24s

[cobalt pelican]

but this still shows as a 4k dps loss to the non priority rotation you linked

for a ~800 st upgrade

[vestal wren]

its probably

bc. i run a copy version

that has diffrent parameters

moment

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/vof5HLWuLsWZAEhPBBFQnA

it gets a bit higher if you run it as "single sim"

[timber meadow]

for ST - does the sim prioritize refreshing rupture/garrote in pandemic over envenom specifically when inside of a TB window?

[vestal wren]

also, i changed gear to all 445

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/jhnLo2BLGCgk8fJFGDP5Um

this is without priority_rotation

so it was a "gain"

[cobalt pelican]

mm yea

[chilly marsh]

outlaw was 188 right

[tropic ocean]

so essentially in aoe situation 4targets+ your highest dps abilities are

-bote

• subterfuge garrote
  -fok

[cobalt pelican]

i think in general the best sim as comparison would be

[tropic ocean]

so the playstyle is to put out 3 empowered garrotes and 1 rupture to sustain energy

and then press fok every gcd

[cobalt pelican]

the sim you just linked, a sim that ruptures everything (priority_rotation="0"), and a sim that uses envenom at >4 cps as a finisher with lower priority than rupture maint for 4bleeds

if that makes sense

[tropic ocean]

when you can't regarrote with vanish you will use ruptures instead of garrote (up to 4 or 5 depending on individual haste iirc)

and then you just press fok all the time as its your highest dmg spell per gcd

[cobalt pelican]

to compare directly between the 3 styles

and potentially a 3bleed version to see what happens

i know you'll hit some energy troughs but i'm just curious if the maintenance globals are higher than the downtime

especially as haste increases a little bit

[vestal wren]

btw.

HB would push dps even higher with that gamepaly

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/qroKGaGA9fAEr2cy9uzdpM/simc

[tropic ocean]

with fok spam?

[vestal wren]

ye

[tropic ocean]

I said that several times so I agree on that

😄

[vestal wren]

i just undid the itemlvl thing to compare to "scuffed version"

[tropic ocean]

this is just comparing max dps and varies from a real gameplay style in a dungeon as you cant reproduce it 100% all the time

[vestal wren]

but what the "unscuffing" did is shift even more prio dps away

old
186,5k
38,4k
new
191,8k
35,2k```

[tropic ocean]

but generally in patchwork aoe its what you do if theres no dangerous mob that needs to be prioritized

[chilly marsh]

HB ?

[tropic ocean]

but it also increased overall right?

like the changed one

[vestal wren]

overall its an increase

[tropic ocean]

lose 3.2 prio gain 5.5 overall yeah

[vestal wren]

but using HB pushes it even more

like overall from 192k to 194k

[chilly marsh]

what is that HB?

[tropic ocean]

hidden blades

[chilly marsh]

oh

right

[tropic ocean]

yeah hb is good for aoe dmg

[vestal wren]

while maintianing same prio dps

[chilly marsh]

forgot that talent lol

[vestal wren]

well, neverless i go to sleep now

[tropic ocean]

can u save the last sims

[vestal wren]

we can continue the discussion later

[tropic ocean]

apl somewhere pastebin

[vestal wren]

its saved on the raidbots link 😉

[tropic ocean]

cuz from ability log this is basically what you do

aight gn

[chilly marsh]

should make this apl default for raidbots

[vestal wren]

idk, i always assumed assassination is taken for prio damage

not aoe

[cobalt pelican]

the opposite really

[vestal wren]

and this is the most pad apl ever

[cobalt pelican]

general population thinks assassination is the prio spec but it's basically the pad spec

outlaw does significantly more prio

[tropic ocean]

theres little tweaks I'd say to change but we can do that tomorrow

[cobalt pelican]

i guess 'pad' is wrong since someone has to do it in dungeons

[tropic ocean]

e.g. not using vendetta for aoe (without prio) and using bote earlier

[timber meadow]

before you bounce fuu can i ask a qq about st sim?

[tropic ocean]

basically bote should be in place of vendetta and it will increase dps more

[vestal wren]

you can, bu i might not answer now as i am going to sleep

can come back to it, just ping me

[tropic ocean]

https://prnt.sc/pmgkzv

this changed will/should push dps even higher not using vendetta at all, putting bote in its place so the empowered garrotes/fok spam benefits from the bote crit dmg

[timber meadow]

@vestal wren for ST - does the sim prioritize reapplying rupture/garrote within pandemic over using envenom if you are currently within a TB window?

pinged ya

[chilly marsh]

he is going to sleep tomorrow he see it

[tropic ocean]

afaik st patchwerk prioritizes dots over everything

its redotting during tb, yes

[timber meadow]

Yeah I saw that

so i was curious if i should be doing that

[cobalt pelican]

it does yeah it's basic raid apl

eh

use human judgement

[timber meadow]

cause right now during tbh window i prioritize envenom over everything

[tropic ocean]

your dots should never fall off at all

[cobalt pelican]

if you can reapply your bleeds without them falling off and fit an env into tb then sure go for it

you don't need to refresh at the first milisecond of pandemic

but if you can't guarantee that

[chilly marsh]

well no dots no energy = no envs

[cobalt pelican]

then always bleed over env

[tropic ocean]

I mean from a very theoretical standpoint you should do exactly what the sim does

cuz its doing more dps than any human player

[timber meadow]

well like if im at 5 combo points and within pandemic, the sim would say i should apply rupture

but i could prob get off that envenom

and reapply rupture

within it falling off

[cobalt pelican]

if you KNOW that to be the case

it's a gain

so envenom then rupture with your next cp

if you have even 0.5sec of rupture downtime to get that envenom, don't bother

[timber meadow]

okay cool

[cobalt pelican]

the 0.5 is literally guesswork but you should at least understand the logic

[timber meadow]

I understand

I was just doing what i thought was intuitive and saw how the sim handled it

so wanted to be sure

[cobalt pelican]

humans have some advantages over sims in situations like that

cause the sim would need a complicated check to 'know' that you'll get those cps in time before rupture falling

but humans can do it 'by feel'

[tropic ocean]

the question is, is it really a gain?

[timber meadow]

well that too

[cobalt pelican]

well yeah, you lose nothing for an extra 30% tb buffed envenom

[tropic ocean]

I mean

losing pandemic

and gaining one more env

is it actually a gain?

[cobalt pelican]

you don't 'lose' pandemic, it's literally just shifted from the fresh bleed into the old bleed

it MIGHT in some super fringe cases

mean you have to rupture an inopporortune time

[tropic ocean]

like in the situation owen said

[cobalt pelican]

later on

[tropic ocean]

you ahve 5 cp rupture is in pandemic

[cobalt pelican]

but that's highly unlikely

[tropic ocean]

you will lose pandemic time

by delaying

[cobalt pelican]

you don't

lose pandemic time

the old bleed just ticks longer and the new shorter, instead of the opposite way around

[tropic ocean]

oh yeah you're right

[cobalt pelican]

literally the only thing that changes is when you NEXT refresh rupture

[tropic ocean]

my brain was slow

yeah but how do we figure out if it is a gain

i've yet to see a player dpsing higher than the sim

[timber meadow]

cool but it dose sound like in my head i was over-valuing the tb buffed envenom

[tropic ocean]

or even as much as the sim

[timber meadow]

because before this convo i would have prob errored on the side of letting a rupture or garrote fall off for 0.5 seconds

[tropic ocean]

so naturally if you just do what sim does your dps should increase

[timber meadow]

i mean you can dps higher than the sim just get lucky af crit xD

[tropic ocean]

theres no logs that dps higher than sim

[cobalt pelican]

you'd have to add a check on your energy income i guess, to know for a fact that you'd get a minimum of 2 mutilates off before bleeds fell

[tropic ocean]

in same fight duration

[timber meadow]

really? damn

[tropic ocean]

or at least I don't know of them maybe private ones idk

[timber meadow]

ha

[tropic ocean]

from public there isnt

[slow mortar]

Will blindside ever beat/come close to EP?

[cobalt pelican]

not unless it's reworked

[timber meadow]

how do you know what each public log sims at

[cobalt pelican]

eh it's safe to assume most of the top logs are like

[tropic ocean]

well lets say first boss

[cobalt pelican]

54-55

[tropic ocean]

ill use one of our good rogues as example

first log raz is rank 11 in the world

[timber meadow]

does vel have public logs?

[tropic ocean]

with 62.800 dps

he sims 54k? iirc on 5minutes

[drifting cloud]

vel doesnt have public logs

[tropic ocean]

pretty sure his 2.33 min sim will be >63k

[timber meadow]

lmfao 62.8 dps tho

[tropic ocean]

well 2.30min fight

[timber meadow]

that's fast af boi

[tropic ocean]

i dont know if sim is doing the possible best rotation for dps

[timber meadow]

and just like the absolute perfect timing

[tropic ocean]

but its damn pumping

I think the perfect fight time is 2:36 or 2.37?

so fight ends with vendetta?

[plain moon]

When I was learning sin I watched a lot of flawless vods. Learned he was VERY greedy with envenoms

[timber meadow]

Yeah I mean im not very good i just play for enjoyment but i also enjoy thinking about this stuff

[tropic ocean]

lets take stilliz

as an example

cuz hes wearing raid setup

[cobalt pelican]

you can use anyone and change fight length really

for some reason raz last top gear had the 2% error for 55k

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/i78PF97T6mrto8DRZAT8X5

don't think this will be right though the increase isn't nearly enough

hm

wonder what went wrong

[tropic ocean]

how do u change the fight length individually?

[timber meadow]

was literally gonna ask taht same question lol

[cobalt pelican]

max_time="153" in advanced sim

but you'll have to add

bfa.loyal_to_the_end_allies="4" to the string aswell

to make sure he's getting his 4loyal

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/4PsYery2cruihrmMAZfjgt

this should be correct fixed at 153seconds exactly

a small gain from coral being used badly in the sim puts it at like what, 61k if generous? for the mean

but the sim still has like

all of these iterations are plausible

and 233 solely at the dps he did

so he slightly outperformed the average for the sim at that fightlength

[tropic ocean]

yeah with good crits

as said basically if you just play 1:1 what sim does on st

you pump

[cobalt pelican]

in the first sim i kinda forgot that the variable fightlength default is 0.1 or whatever

so it stopped hitting at 153 then the variable fight length continued to like 180

which is why ti was only 58k

[tropic ocean]

did u check ability log though?

[cobalt pelican]

yeah i mean

click the first advanced sim i linked and

[tropic ocean]

https://prnt.sc/pmgtmn

why is sim doing that

[cobalt pelican]

idk, it's default apl i didn't modify anything

[tropic ocean]

but yeah the avg sim

is close to the high crit top log

[cobalt pelican]

heheh

[tropic ocean]

cuz in raz logs

https://prnt.sc/pmgtyy

[cobalt pelican]

if you wanted to test on another char from armory

bfa.loyal_to_the_end_allies="4" max_time="153" vary_combat_length=0.0 fixed_time=1

and just change the max time

to whatever the fight length was

[tropic ocean]

I mean

[cobalt pelican]

only problem is that the sim still tries to coral right after font cause it's set up rigidly in the sim

[tropic ocean]

raz 62k log

is 65% crit on envenom 58% crit on mutilate

😛

[cobalt pelican]

alwayslucky

[tropic ocean]

his 57k log is 51% crit envenom 54% crit mutilate

[timber meadow]

65% envenom crit

Rofl

So legit

[tropic ocean]

so even the best players are playing "worse" than sim

like that 62k log is giga lucky

he had 14% more crit on envenom

than when he used bote

lol

[timber meadow]

Why is the sim so much better? Can’t just be the buttons - is it more a positioning and movement thing?

[cobalt pelican]

nah it's literally just global perfect for the most part

and there is NO movement

in sim

it's a dummy

[timber meadow]

Ya

[plain moon]

We don’t have a 100% patchwerk fight

Also sim has no MS I assume

[tropic ocean]

well first boss is pretty much patchwerk as rogue

[plain moon]

Not exactly

[tropic ocean]

how so?

u never move

in a 2.30 kill u literally play no mechanic

[cobalt pelican]

once you're comfortable with the fight it's pretty much patchwerk even if you get a circle you just drop it on your team

[tropic ocean]

u just stand there and do your rotation

if u get circle

u just cloak it off

[timber meadow]

Being global perfect on presses with no ping would be huge

[tropic ocean]

well this stilliz log and raz log is still not far off from perfect

[plain moon]

I’ve always had to run out and cloak it so my raid doesn’t hate me. Also assume during the shoot out spike ability(blanking on the name now) you could lose some globals or autos

[timber meadow]

Is there a way to adjust crit chance in a sim?

[cobalt pelican]

nah not really, you can just stand in melee and shuffle abit around

uhh

[tropic ocean]

@plain moon you dont move away when barrage comes

[timber meadow]

Like setup a sim where it shows what you’d get with a specific crit input or something

[cobalt pelican]

you can just artificially inflate your own crit

[tropic ocean]

u stand and attack and dodge it

[cobalt pelican]

to a %

but i don't think you can make it crit a fixed amount

unless you do 10395301951309 iterations at a set crit value

[tropic ocean]

for the moving part idk about your raid but these logs are literally 2.20-2.40 minutes killtime so

noone will care about anything or how much dmg u take

cuz boss will be long dead before healers get close to be oom, they will be happy the more dmg u take so they can pad log too

[plain moon]

Yeah aside from the first couple weeks of mythic I always stood right in front of the spikes. I’m sure I’ve missed global or autos during that though, also just really easy to misplay your rotation during that. Maybe raz is playing that perfectly though

[tropic ocean]

not perfectly but close to it

these top 5-10 logs are literally insane crit %

you can see it from themselves in the other kills

they log 55~58k

then suddenly 62k 63k

https://prnt.sc/pmgx9t

for example

57-63k

[plain moon]

Yeah, does the sim not also have iterations where it gets giga crits?

[tropic ocean]

63k log 60% crit envenom

57k log 40% crit envenom

yeah, i think max sim with those geared rogues is 68~70k or smth

[bleak spoke]

Crits on dd and procs during Tb are important too

[plain moon]

Your mut during MA is pretty big

[tropic ocean]

in 63k log avg double dose 18.6k, in 57k log, avg double dose 16.5k

so yeah the crit play a big role, even the envenoms

avg 53.7k vs 61.1k

is big big

guardian too, in 57k log guardian did 397k dmg, in 63k log guardian did 450k dmg

thats 3.2k vs 2.4k dps

on guardian alone

800dps difference

guardian critting for 35% big pumper boy

the variance is insane

unbridled fury 524k vs 304k soo 220k dmg more by the pot procs in a fight that was 20 seconds shorter

[plain moon]

In a sub 3min fight wouldn’t using a 2min CD essence be better?

[tropic ocean]

nah clf is biggest

it just does so much dmg literally

but from looking at the log the variance in rng stuff can differ 4k dps or more

pretty bad :/

[plain moon]

Not sure what the runner up is just cause I only use clf anyways. But never knew 1clf > 2 bote

Assuming bote would be the runner up

[tropic ocean]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/nm67yHaxPvrR9CRZ3U24Wm

2 bote vs 1 clf in 3minfight

-1241 dps

the guardian also gives 5% dmg buff as long as hes up thats pretty big

[plain moon]

In that case wouldn’t it be better to run clf in zaq rather than bote

[tropic ocean]

u dont run bote for overall dmg

u run bote for killing the adds

as bote has higher burst than guardian

and u can use it on both adds

which u cant with clf

[plain moon]

Damage will be more lopsided to whichever add you kill but the damage isn’t equal anyways

For exp other people using CDs on only the 2nd add

[tropic ocean]

with bote u can use essence on both adds

which u cant with clf

[plain moon]

Or where we put 2nd pots

[scarlet sequoia]

just be a massive pumper and skip 2nd delirium add

[plain moon]

Yeah I know

[tropic ocean]

so if u dont need to go down

or dont need the dmg on both adds

u can use clf y

[plain moon]

Guild pulled the plug on 1split strat:(

[tropic ocean]

with nowadays gear and stuff u can probably

just use clf

and pot 2nd add or smth

or just be like me, use clf, dont go down go first delirium

and blast

[scarlet sequoia]

not worth trying to log on zaqul anyways no all star points

[plain moon]

My guilds prog hasn’t reached 2nd split yet but I’m pretty sure it would die faster than first

[tropic ocean]

who cares about all star

[scarlet sequoia]

real gamers

[tropic ocean]

just need good logs to show being superior in orgrimmar

[plain moon]

Also guild has been trying to figure out how we want to do list for people in del

[tropic ocean]

@plain moon depends on setup u send down i guess

and what list?

[plain moon]

I don’t think any other class can CD both adds

[tropic ocean]

enhance can

[plain moon]

Xd

[tropic ocean]

good classes for down are rogue demo lock hunter

yeah enhancer is 1.5min cd too afaik

fire mage is big as well for down but u cant send melee with them

[plain moon]

I’m with a spriest and lock

Yeah, we had to kick our fire mage out of going in any dels cause of me

[tropic ocean]

think combustion is the only superior burst cd over vendetta

[cobalt pelican]

you'd probably need a shorter than 3min fight for it to be guaranteed 1clf since the varying length means like

half of the iterations will have a 2nd clf for a bit

[timber meadow]

Combust is nutty

[plain moon]

I think demo lock opener is up there too

But pretty sure they have a lot of rng in opener can be giga or small