whats the max sim for rogue?
#assassination
grave trail
drifting cloud
54+
hidden bay
55?
arctic walrus
∞
cobalt pelican
a higher ilvl weapon, azerite that's the same ilvl, and maybe a bigger trinket
then holes on your current gear
so you might go up 3 whole ilvls
grave trail
in 7 i level different i can get A LOT of upgrades
if they socket of course
and titan forge on important items
like font and coral
cobalt pelican
i mean, if you're literally comparing the gear you have now to the same gear but +7ilvls then yeah sure
but that's just not how gear works
drifting cloud
so youre saying if I replace my 430 font with a higher font I will sim more?
grave trail
like having a 455 font of power socketed is more valuable than a pant 455 socket
you missed the point
AGAIN lul
you must not be very smart
cobalt pelican
you're just not very good at making points or asking concise questions
or accepting the answers given
really
drifting cloud
not really because almost all item slots are fixed
grave trail
so a 455 font of power is not better than a 455 pants
cobalt pelican
yes trinkets and weapons give more dps per ilvl than other gear pieces
great, now what
grave trail
ryler was trying to be smartass about it lol
arctic walrus
You've said like 5 different things so far
drifting cloud
if youre 435 and you sim under 51k your current gear can probably also be improved
without going up in ilvl by alot
grave trail
all i said is from 435 to 442 ilevel can be a huge dps upgrade
if you get tyhem in the right items
cobalt pelican
it can also be a dps loss
grave trail
missed the point
cobalt pelican
kinda a pointless statement
i've not missed any point you literally just aren't making points
you're just saying words
grave trail
someone saaid it wasnt a big difference
grave trail
it is
drifting cloud
only reason herp is 442 is because of his rings, the rest of his gear is the same as most of us here
grave trail
so by your logic all items give the same dps and sockets dont matter
cobalt pelican
.
drifting cloud
+- a sockete here or there and 5ilvls
grave trail
if i can get to 442 with just getting bis items where dps matters
it will make a big difference
in dps
cobalt pelican
yes i am sure if you get bis you will do more damage
i have collected the point
on this one
thank you
cobalt pelican
ok..
round nimbus
so i am looking for help improving. i am the rogue burdere and these are my logs https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/MTjKyL7x9GRJZwvX/ and https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/9ZwpbB7ygX4DJYFa/
brave vector
SAME ^^^ if anyone has a chance to look at my logs and point me in the right direction im not getting anywhere near my sims
round nimbus
i know i have some issues renenbering to vanish and i am working on that
cobalt pelican
just looking briefly at a few of the sivara pulls there's quite a lot that's easily correctable
generally with the gear you have you should be swapping over to master assassin, if you want to play subterfuge though your opener is still wrong and should generally look something like
g m r vend m tb
on a lot of these pulls you just straight up stop hitting the boss which is generally a sign of discomfort with the fight rather than class mechanics but costs you a giant chunk of dps
last pull of the night you spent 21.5 -> 53 seconds doing nothing to the boss besides reapplying bleeds
round nimbus
yeah on sivvara i know i am still learning the fight
cobalt pelican
you didn't use lucid until 1:53 into the fight which essentially lost you a full cast of the spell
there's an average gap of like 45 seconds between toxic blades for you, partially because of said downtime but also because you just seem to not be casting it
round nimbus
i think tonight is a better assessment of my abilities . i did switch my essessances tonight and in knew more of what i weas doing
cobalt pelican
the heroic logs?
cobalt pelican
ok let's see
still playing subterfuge which i guess is fine but whatever
opener is still wrong however, see above
generally condensed life force will be cast before vendetta not after
this already is a giant dps loss
ah it's not that bad, one of them isn't counted cause it was on a summoner
round nimbus
ok was first time playing with that essesnce good to know. and with g m r vend tb i will be r at only 4 energy not 5?
cobalt pelican
it depends on how many combo points mutilate gives
but as long as it's above 4 you can rupture
in general you're overusing garrote on small ads and overusing poison knife consistently
round nimbus
ok i was focusing on only rupture at 5 so i can easily fix that
cobalt pelican
basically avoid using poison knife unless you have 170 energy and no way to spend on anything else
all finishers follow the same rule
4cp or above -> finish
envenom and rupture
if you land on 4cp and garrote needs refreshing you can use the 1cp it gives to get you to 5 to finish but if you can't just finish at 4
round nimbus
i use poison knife when i am at a distance until i am back in meelee range. is that wrong?
cobalt pelican
yes
just ignore the button
unless like i say
you're capping energy
and then only use it as often as needed to not cap energy
you're using your coral trinket very oddly
like it's not lined up with anything really, on the zaqul kill you randomly pressed it 80 seconds in for the crit buff
then reapplied it, then pulled it f or crit again AFTER your vendetta at around 144 seconds
just follow the simple pattern: apply it to the boss at fight start, use the crit buff with your next vendetta, then reapply it after vendetta ends
things like this should almost never be things with good planning
you had a tb with zero envenoms inside it somehow
round nimbus
ok i admit i had no clue how top properly use that
cobalt pelican
and yeah you just like.. didn't use vanish once actually which is odd but at least you're aware of it
round nimbus
alright thanks so much. this gives me an idea of what to work on
cobalt pelican
@brave vector in general from a brief look at logs from oct11 heroic most of the super basics are done reasonably well, there's lots of minor stuff mostly related to energy management but you're not making any outlandish mistakes really
your vanish usage is kinda wonky sometimes, you very often vanish at 0cp which isn't really a significant loss but it's just like.. unnecessary
looking to hit simdps in real encounters is generally not something to aim for to be honest
it can and will happen as you get better, but the variance is pretty high on sims in general
brave vector
Yeah I get that I guess, but seeing my sim at 43k and my Azshara dps At like 25k is like a punch in the gut
cobalt pelican
i can look at azshara specifically i guess, i mostly just check st fights cause they're the easiest to skim over
besides energy/vanish stuff mostly it's just a misunderstanding of like.. what actually does damage on something liek blackwater
like you're garroting the puffer then poison knifing the boss for some reason
not only will the garrote do basically nothing to the pufferfish before it dies
the poison knife is just sunk energy
brave vector
Should I not open on the puffer and just let other dps kill it? Haha
cobalt pelican
you can open on it just fine
rupture is fine too
as you'll recoup the energy when the fish dies
but garrote is essentially only an ability worth using if the mob will live a decent length of time
cobalt pelican
yeah, it kinda varies a bit on how long the puffer lives but that'd be generally what i do yeah
assuming it dies in a few seconds which it should
brave vector
Ok. I think that’s what I tried doing? Honesty don’t know why I pushed poison knife.
Wel except the garrote
cobalt pelican
and honestly when it comes to azshara it's really hard to give meaningful advice, the fight has so much downtime and random stuff depending on how your group are handling it
like looking at it the only thing that stands out is
when there's a mrymidon+venomtongue+azshara you're using fok as your cp builder
brave vector
But open on puffer then switch to rupture garrote clf v tb on eel asap
That’s actually a question? Should I not even bother and just tunnel priority targets?
Actually a question I had*
cobalt pelican
if you're playing double dose it's 5targets you want in range before fok becomes your generic builder
you can use fok to spread poisons if it makes it easier for you than tab targetting
but that's about it
so even if you wanted to spread damage and not tunnel a priority target, you'd be bleeding the 3 up (in this case)
and then mutilating for combo points
brave vector
Ok gotcha
cobalt pelican
at 5+ targets feel free to fok to your hearts content
brave vector
Question, for zaqul do I even bother trying to go for the little guys?
cobalt pelican
depends on what your goal is really
they have like 200% dmg taken
so if your goal is solely to parse then yes
but in terms of like
'is it a gain'
for the actual boss itself
probably not, they die too fast for multibleeding for energy
brave vector
The ret in our raid literally just lolstorms them down
cobalt pelican
yeah every group will inevitably have one or two people doing the majority of the damage to them
in your group it should probably just be the shadowpriest taking care of them on heroic really
in general though you want to maintain bleeds on targets that will live long enough for the bleeds to expire, and you can make judgement calls on if it's like 'they'll live for a bit' whether it's worth throwing a rupture on them
brave vector
I see. My end goal is to get at least some purple parses on some of these fights but clearly struggling
cobalt pelican
generally the answer will be no for smaller ads simply because the effort to get the bleed on them (travel time, combo point building, travel time back to the boss) is more of a loss
that's something you'll learn with time though i guess
brave vector
But there are some things that may be out of my control I guess
cobalt pelican
honestly the biggest thing you coudl do for purple parses is get gear
you have zero benthic pieces
brave vector
Like is it possible to parse high on zaqul without being sent into delirium?
cobalt pelican
eh, yeah
zaqul is a weird one cause top logs just play echoing blades and hit the ads all fight
but assuming no gear constraints you can easily get up to a 99th percentile log without delirium
brave vector
Benthic gear hm, that is all passive damage guess I’ll try for it
cobalt pelican
it's a significant chunk of damage
especially considering your current pieces aren't like
very good to begin with
adding 4x socket benthic to your gear is basically a 2k dps upgrade on every fight
brave vector
I honestly didn’t think to bother with them because my guild is done raiding for this tier
brave vector
And I just started playing again a few weeks ago
cobalt pelican
but if your goal IS parses, it's a neccessary evil
brave vector
Bleh, guess that’s the next goal then
Is lucid dreams minor going to make a difference At all?
cobalt pelican
it's pretty big yeah
brave vector
I didn’t have it for any of those fights
cobalt pelican
you're using iris flame minors now yeah?
brave vector
Just got it 2 days ago
cobalt pelican
lucid is a pretty substantial upgrade
and if the goal is to parse in the end you'll just need t o get used to planning out your cds
random stuff like
on radiance for example
oct11
you font in the intermission
but way too soon
and then have to finish off the stormwraith
so your font is basically gone by the time you vendetta
brave vector
That fight is a wash for me lmao
cobalt pelican
and then 10 seconds after your vend runs out, you press clf
like, you can push these ALL back to pair with clf without a problem on this fight length
brave vector
That specific log I didn’t even get into the stormwraith until it was almost dead
cobalt pelican
and it's a gain in every regard
brave vector
I got hit by a tornado and wasn’t allowed to hit the ground
cobalt pelican
unluck
and this is on orgozoa
like you do the opener right, most times
but there's still some random stuff like this that happens
that i guess just comes down to playing more
cause you seem to know what it is
brave vector
I think that specific one I started the fight really well, got hit by like 13 tornadoes and just tilted
Problem there was no mutilate before garrote yes?
cobalt pelican
yeah, assuming the first mut got you to 4cp
like other bosses from the same night it's right
so i guess it's just a misclick/whatever
brave vector
That org fight actually
When adds come out I’m dropping a rupture on each and then stepping back to boss, good?
cobalt pelican
for overall dps maintaining both bleeds on all mobs is the best
you really do seem to just press vanish whenever you notice it's there..
like in this instance
this is just after a toxic blade
brave vector
But what if they don’t live long enough for garrote to tick through? Isn’t just rupture better for mobs that won’t die immediately?
cobalt pelican
yeah, that's somewhat correct
how 'worth' garrote is
depends on
hwo fast your group blast the ads really
but in general if the ads live even the majority of 1 garrote cycle each it's worth it
the same somewhat applies to the puffer like, garrote WOULD be worth on the puffer if it takes your guild 15 seconds to kill the puffer for some reason
but it should be dying in <5
brave vector
What boss is that vanish?
cobalt pelican
queens court 2nd vanish
expanded a bit
like with vanish it's as simple as if you have 4cp and you're inside toxic blade+vend vanish env mut env (unless never lucky and 2cp mut)
if you end up mut env mut it's not the end of the world cause at least doubledose might crit, but you shouldn't really aim to be doing that
brave vector
I THINK what I was doing there
Was I vanished for the MA window to try to get an extra envenom with TB on the target
I was also a little flustered that fight, my first attempt at keeping garrote and rupture up on both out of my 4 kills
cobalt pelican
yeah, makes sense
if you moved the vanish to like
the env preceeding
and env mut env mut rupture
it's pretty much strictly better
brave vector
Alright I understand that. You said I kind of know what I’m doing so I can at least take solace in that haha. Guess I just need more practice (and some Benthic)
Thanks a lot for the help!
shut pike
Doing M Orgozoa tonight do most people in here run the benethic belt for the 2% and Neri bracers for aoe proc?
pseudo yacht
hey fellows
I am not to the rogue class
how does one lockpicK?
and where do I check my lockpicking skill
inner wedge
@pseudo yacht there's lock pick skill in your spell book, general section
I have a question to top dpsers, lords of the logs:)
How do you combine Coral, Azshara trink, Blood essense, potion etc.
I see how ppl do it in logs, but would like to understand the logic behind it
Kind of rules of thumb for CDs
gilded fossil
junior flume
Hey peeps, are you guys running worldvein on azshara? If there's enough people in the raid running it of course
marble hemlock
too much movement for my taste
but if the rest of the raid is running it, you should too
you might not get the full benefit yourself compared to another minor, but you also provide additional benefit to the raid
junior flume
There's a lot of stacking in the later phases it seems. My guild is debating swapping to it. But I've never had a really good impression of it, it sims better, but I've always gotten the impression that it's a sim trap
lusty narwhal
outer estuary
tropic ocean
Yes it does
gleaming viper
hey guys ?! i do not understand how a 430 dagger (63 haste 82 poly) with gem slot can sim a very little bit better than a 445 dagger (54crit 98haste) i could say sim same, its like 60dps
rigid mango
Is it in your offhand?
gleaming viper
yes it is
rigid mango
Offhand dps barely matters
young portal
Offhand weapon stat weights are dead low, ilvl doesn't tend to make a huge difference in that slot(unless it's a huge ilvl difference)
young portal
It will be the gem slot that's giving you the extra dps
gleaming viper
thank you guys !
muted owl
currently i'm socketed/enchanted for crit
should I swap to haste, cause that seems like low haste
distant lava
What sims higher ?
muted owl
doing a stat weight sim as we speak
rigid mango
Don't do a stat weight sim
Do top gear sims
Stat weights don't take into account that after you swap a piece, your weights change
royal lantern
stat weight is not really helpfull cus you need too work with the gear you have
hot flume
Hey folks, just wanted to know, why is the inkpod stronger on Za'Qul and Azshara and does it affect the stats to aim for or not ?
marble hemlock
Inkpod is a nice progression trinket for any boss that has a difficult last phase
Since its damage is all in that phase, instead of spreading out over the course of a kill
hot flume
Actually we are on farm, but it's still worth to kill Delirium echoes faster
scarlet sequoia
its just down to how the fights work pretty much
font is fine on zaqul but inkpod is definitely better than font on azshara
rocky ruin
Is the engineering helmet good for m+?
vapid delta
!essence
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination Essences overview: https://bit.ly/2XaZOVd
hot flume
@rocky ruin yes I've been using it before I got one with Ace and Deadshot
rigid mango
DIdn't know ace and deadshot were sin traits.
hot flume
Oh sorry are you talking for sin ?
Ahah @rigid mango that was quick ! Sorry my answer is not relevant for sin
rigid mango
rapid talon
Yo, how much energy do you all pool in prep for TB? Is the goal to be as close to max as possible or?
Obviously there are different variables but in general
rigid mango
Aslong as you have bleeds ticking and you're not overcapping you can pool
bleak spoke
@cobalt gyro seli using ct in fh PogU
rapid talon
right, I just wasn't sure in a "perfect" situation if it was worth pooling close to max or simply getting enough to do 2+ env
brave vector
When pushing m+ do y’all generally setup based on tyrannical/fortified weeks? DD setups for tyrannical and SS/EB for fortified
Or just base it off whatever group your running with?
bleak spoke
never play dd
modest tendon
As much as I want it to work dd is shit in m+
bleak spoke
that is for raid
i think triple ss in all keys now
and any of ttk blightborne eb that you can get, the azerite is hard to find
but never dd
brave vector
Alright so just triple SS with subterfuge regardless or affixes and group members?
brave vector
Yeahhhh
bleak spoke
your first three globals are worth more than any 3 of the other 4 ppl combined
brave vector
I tell my tank in comms constantly to let me restealth because my garrotes are important
bleak spoke
like if they're bad at not chaining try to hang back and restealth
of all the specs in m+ assa definitely isn't the hardest to play around though
most midway competent tanks will give you a restealth
bleak spoke
and if they don't just remind them
rigid mango
I just scream at my friend, now everytime he does it my other friend plays a soundclip of me screaming
rigid mango
Shit was dope
brave vector
For the most part I do just hang back. But with chain pulling being a thing it’s pretty triggering
bleak spoke
I’d tell tanks “hey only give restealth when you want silence and dr”
brave vector
Is 3 eb only an option for like half dungeon mid pulls?
rigid mango
I wouldn't play more than 2 eb, like, ever
bleak spoke
This season eb seems worse
But 3 ss 3 eb is still the highest theoretical output probably
rigid mango
You just never pull those counts anymore
rigid mango
It's super degen to play
bleak spoke
There are like no packs in the game that survive through that burst
And you need to pull 6 mobs at least
Ggg vanish ggg blood 9 foks
Can rupture before vanish probably
bleak spoke
you need to tab to non poisoned mobs
to get ven wounds
between globals
it's annoying
lul
it's really pleasant if you lust a pull tho
rigid mango
Meh, I just use it on lower pull counts when others don't ahve CD's up
make the smaller size, beefier packs go quiecker
bleak spoke
should vanish on pandemic instead if you don't have 6 mobs
rigid mango
ye
bleak spoke
i mean you still need to upkeep energy
brave vector
Don’t even have blood r1 yet 
rigid mango
Sin gets a lot better w blood
brave vector
Yeah I need to get my pvp island win, Cba to find a group to do it
rigid mango
Meh, I just did it all solo
brave vector
Oh I don’t mind farming the honor solo haha but I need 2 other people to queue for island
Just using iris3 right now which I’m not a huge fan of
tough dome
would anyone be willing to look at my logs and give some advice? I'm a few months into playing wow and I was pretty shit for a while but I'm seeing some progress lately, this discord has helped a lot so thanks.
character name is Akirath
prime stirrup
during lady ashvane fight he doesnt garrote until 11 seconds in
so opener is way fucked too
arctic walrus
You tend to have these long pauses of not doing anything? Not really sure what you're doing
prime stirrup
also using coral too much. pretty sure with ass rogue you want to use with vendetta
arctic walrus
Are you reapplying your bleeds outside of pandemic?
prime stirrup
hes letting them fall off completely
arctic walrus
garrote needs to be up all the time, same as rupture
wide lake
try to pool some energy before entering in tb phase too (if your bleeds allow it)
arctic walrus
you overcap on cp using mutilate, if you are at 4, just finisher
tough dome
yeah i need to work on bleed uptime for sure
I was using the blackwater with SS for m+ but I'll swap the traits and try it.
prime stirrup
your rotation needs the most work paramount. work on that first, you will find biggest gains there. GO smack a target dummy until the opener is muscle memory
verbal radish
Recent join to the Ravenholdt, and watching the advice given to this individual I was wondering if the same could be offered for me. I feel like I should be doing more. Since this log, I have upgraded to a 445 Cephalohide, so just got TTK back. https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/MLPApBJt71DTfhRV Any help is appreciated, and you guys did an amazing job delving into the details of his logs.
hasty fiber
whats the prepull Font of Power time?
rigid mango
5
arctic walrus
you don't have a single piece of benthic
rigid mango
what?
arctic walrus
You know that's supposed to happen right
arctic walrus
horribly wrong
tough dome
@arctic walrus @true spade @wide lake thanks for looking and the advice, much appreciated.
rigid mango
You missed a TB cast, you overcapped with muti
Your opener is entirely wrong
You're using poison knife in your rotation(?)
arctic walrus
sivara so probably ran out but still
rigid mango
arctic walrus
just pool during that time
arctic walrus
So it looks like your "vanish -> vendetta" is a recurring theme, fix that immediatly
rigid mango
And use TB on cd
hasty fiber
waste of a crit buff
verbal radish
Gotcha. I'm doing Vendetta, Vanish out of order and losing a full crit buffed ability it seems you're saying. I think I've started over thinking my toxic blade lately, and trying to time it. Would you just toxic blade on cooldown, or should it be placed somewhere specific?
prime stirrup
also nephtyys razor coral isnt on the Global Cooldown so you can use it with another ability. the best being your first mutilate
verbal radish
Thats helpful, thank you.
prime stirrup
always tb on cd. pre pool to ensure 3 envenoms during tb window
strange python
Where do you guys go to analyze log? i dont get the same thing like i cant see vanish etc ? im going into Analyze > Timelines do i have to go elsewhere ? ty
verbal radish
My poor timing on toxic blade usage I think comes down to not wanting to use it when Rupture needs to be refreshed soon, how do you deal with that?
quasi ledge
As a starter you can just macro Vendetta and Coral together, just make sure you have an obvious WA to show when to apply it and when it's available to use @verbal radish
verbal radish
Okay, I assumed that was discouraged for a wasted cast. Thanks.
rigid mango
It's bad, but it's better than holding tb/not reapplying
strange python
ahh i see, ty Zine
rigid mango
macroing vend and coral together sucks if you play with font later.
hasty fiber
^
rigid mango
Don't do that, just learn to use them as they are
verbal radish
Not having Font yet, and not getting to toy with it but wanting it. Is it pre-channeled before every Vendetta then?
verbal radish
Awesome.
hasty fiber
not having gorak tul's 445 shoulders and blackwater chest rlly fuckin sucks
scarlet sequoia
yeah it must
verbal radish
At the time of that parse, I didnt even have TTK :/ well I know the things to work on. Vendetta/Vanish timing. Toxic Blade uptime. Proper usage of Coral. And I'll review my opener. Thanks.
rigid mango
TTK is far from a need.
It's a worse trait than the absolute top, but it's good enough and on some of the best pieces
arctic walrus
And you’re not gonna magically get better when you have it
You have very inherent problems in how you play
verbal radish
Right. Which I'll work on, thanks for helping me pinpoint them.
prime stirrup
neph, youre doing really well at keeping rupture uptime. but your garrote isn't up there. garrote is just as important as rupture so make sure youre re applying in pandemic window
verbal radish
Thanks for the extra info 🙂
wide delta
hey guys, which azerite pieces are the best for sin when it comes to raid setup?
wide delta
I got this so far and I know that shoulder and chest are bis but what about head?
I got cephalohide - gorak - slithering loa
rigid mango
Cepha is sorta behind blackwater
wide delta
it is?
rigid mango
It sims +- same
but has the added effect that if someone dies with loyal it gains a lot fo value
wide delta
i really need the zaqul head I guess so I can use Blightborne with the shoulders
rigid mango
Yes
last jetty
For azerite traits for assassination in M+ for me kind of seems to vary from a trash heavy ML to more a more single target like KR. I had just wanted to see what others would substitute echoing blades for and/or what 6, for the two outer rings, would you want on each?
tropic ocean
for outter rings unstable flames/overwhelming power
bleak spoke
for pretty much all dungeons you play 3 ss now probably
topaz vine
might be a stupid question, but what would be best on Za´qul. 3 times DD or 2 and a loyal to the end with 4 allies?
topaz vine
okay. hehe thanks ^^
hasty fiber
np gl
rigid mango
@topaz vine just sim it, should be better though.
topaz vine
yeah. I just looked at the top people to see where doing and a lot seem to stack the DD.
scarlet sequoia
the dd
topaz vine
or well.. also a lot with the loyal. guess I sim it. ^^
scarlet sequoia
it is in fact very simple
2x dd 1x np 1x bbi 1x ttk 1x loyal is the best
there we go
scarlet sequoia
appreciate it
rigid mango
NP
devout bolt
Is inkpod dmg or crit Chance increased by Something?
rigid mango
Well, you don't use coral for it as sin
arctic walrus
Yeah just saying in general coral would be the only way you can “force” a crit
shut garnet
is it better to play vop, iris or flame if you havent got c&s3 for azshara
or just play c&s2
althought the diff between r2 and 3 for strife doesnt seem that huge for that fight especially right?
scarlet sequoia
just iris
well r2 conflict is 3 stacks worse than rank 3
r2 conflict is definitely not better than iris r3
rigid mango
and you can still hold iris stacks up aslong as you attack the target within 3 sec iirc
So, it's not all that bad
arctic walrus
I mean if you’re running blood isn’t flame gonna be better
Might just be close though 
scarlet sequoia
buff lasts for 4 seconds
there is nothing about a 3 sec gap
the buff just drops if u dont hit the target u built it up on
topaz vine
so if your guild decides to not send the assa rogue to the haste realm on za´qul.. . would u go echo? and if so how many? xD
topaz vine
but so many adds
shut garnet
boss prio damage is better
topaz vine
yeah true . 🙂
scarlet sequoia
assa rogue isnt the class that should focus on killing adds
u can bleed a few of them whenever theyre up for energy regen, thats good but other than that dont have to worry about them unless its called out that 1 is on super low stacks
topaz vine
no but we seem to have issues killing them.
shut garnet
then it might be worth swapping to outlaw
shut garnet
if you have enough dps going on boss during punctured darkness
because outlaw with 3ace 2ds 1 wits is MUCH better for aoe AND st than an assa running pad traits
like 3eb 3 rup or whatever
topaz vine
yeah. I'll try it out . ^^
shut garnet
@scarlet sequoia how come dont you run font for azshara?
rigid mango
I found coral more clunky than font
royal lantern
sin in pvp has the highest raw dmg
deep solstice
When using font, is it proper to let it fully channel even if you would energy cap?
shut garnet
yes, but preferably you wanna use up energy before you start channeling
so you're channeling it whilst pooling to avoid wasting stuff
deep solstice
Yes, just wondering in that niche case or during hero etc, if you have to channel do you just do it regardless of capping
shut garnet
again, pref not to channel during hero
if you know when you're gonna hero try using font just before
timber meadow
Having zero shrouded traits feels pretty yikes for M+
rigid mango
Like, you just don't.
shut garnet
but
timber meadow
2eb and 0 shrouded is still just aweful
shut garnet
3eb and hidden blades giga op @rigid mango
deep solstice
M+ as sin is pretty good with shrouded and stacking Twist too
shut garnet
jk i havent tried it
rigid mango
You want a mute 
shut garnet
plz
mystic dragon
3 Ss, no more than 2 eb, one twist feels pretty good
Just don’t be a scrub like me and reapply garrotes during trash out of stealth 🙃
deep solstice
I have 0 EB , feels bad
rigid mango
0 EB works in KR/ToS kinda
mystic dragon
You really want eb more for the combo point generation than the stat padding
rigid mango
You want EB for the damage.
upper canyon
just run HB to make up for no EB damage : )
deep solstice
I mean I do just fine damagewise, but I know it could be better with at least 1 EB
mystic dragon
Damage is nice but the extra combo points are also nice
rigid mango
Damage is nicer.
mystic dragon
HB is pretty Garbo
deep solstice
HB was a meme for mythic Zul. That's about it
mystic dragon
Yeah but if it was the main selling point we’d be running more eb is my train of thought, I get what you’re saying tho
rigid mango
You do, you can play up to 2 EB
mystic dragon
Yeah that’s what I was saying earlier
rigid mango
The reason we don't run 3 EB is thanks to the season and what it does to pull sizes
Also the main reason 3 SS is the best.
mystic dragon
I gotcha, I just remember the last time I said I ran 3 eb I got shamed outta here lol
You think 3SS 3 EB may have any use on a teeming fortified week? Or is it probably still better to just stick to the normal build?
shut garnet
probably not
rigid mango
It's mega pad build
vestal wren
i think 3 eb is the best build with big pulls
vestal wren
the best way to migrate damage is to kill stuff faster, so eb is extremely valuable
rigid mango
Issue is, you don't pull as big in s3
elder gulch
3 EB is nice in some dungeons some weeks. For the most part 1-2 feels best at other times
3 EB being valuable seems much more rare this season
vestal wren
this season pull sizes play quite well into 3xSS 3xEB
rigid mango
You would know would you?
vestal wren
sure, why not
rigid mango
because you don't play m+
shut garnet
if anything ttk is the odd trait out
it just doesnt feel anywhere near as strong as the other 2
rigid mango
TTK isn't as strong, no
elder gulch
zine coming with the weirdchamp responses
vestal wren
not sure how that contributes to the discussion,
might stay on topic?
we move to much into the direction i dont rly think is healthy for a discussion
rigid mango
People who actually do play m+, and at a high level say it's not worth it
Yet you, a sub onetrick who doesn't, is apparently very enlightened about the spec
Like every time.
elder gulch
so zine other people told you that, you didnt come to that conclusion on your own?
rigid mango
I play the game too, but I also rely on people who're better than me
elder gulch
why?
elder gulch
people that are better than you are doing veryh different keys
rigid mango
Wat
elder gulch
if i wanted to know what's best for a 12 vs a 21 im gonna get very different trait reponses
maybe ss is really bad at low keys since nothing lives long enough
so u go triple EB with somethign else
maybe 1 ss
strange python
I myself like 3xSS 1xEB 1xTTK 1xBI. Yes I am blessed with the headpiece that has both SS and EB, even if at 430.
elder gulch
a lot of the best M+'ers test out builds and try things. so their conclusions come from high keys
distant lava
why would you need different traits for a 12 ?
vestal wren
in the end you are often limited to your gear
elder gulch
@distant lava because lower keys means you might pull more and things dont live as long
rigid mango
And high keys are optimised to the teeth
distant lava
let me rephrase
rigid mango
In most cases, anyways
mystic dragon
He’s saying that when trash gets harder and harder to kill the more consistent damage coming from constant eb is going to outperform shrouded
distant lava
why would you need to optimize for +12s ?
vestal wren
yes, there is sadly not enough tc intresst so its a very opinionated answer
kinda like whats best in pvp
elder gulch
@distant lava idk, seems like a lot of people do. It's something people like
mystic dragon
True to his namesake
rigid mango
Even at the higher keys, skill > optimisation
strange python
What’s HB?
rigid mango
Hidden blades
shut garnet
a bad talent
strange python
Ooo gotcha don’t mind me just passing by
rigid mango
Talent, ye
elder gulch
Zine do you think most people here asking questions are doing 20+?
rigid mango
I'm assuming 17+ atleast
rigid mango
Why does anyone care about it?
deep solstice
presumably because your name is green
rigid mango
What's key level got to do with this conversation?
strange python
Well technically, the mobs from 16 aren’t gonna die as fast as the mob from 10
Don’t roast me I’m just a pleb 1600 only. No roasting.
rigid mango
I talk to players who are well above me, doing content I have no intention of doing nor skill of doing currently
ANd they've got the time and resources to try things in realistic scenarios and give their feedback and thoughts
Now, if people find sims that disprove it, go for it.
elder gulch
then why are you speaking with authority and telling someone they're a ontrick sub rogue lmao
rigid mango
Because he's annoying.
He speaks from an entirely sim perspective
and has no real life usage of any of the info he spouts
vestal wren
you need to admit he is not wrong
rigid mango
What?
vestal wren
liquid
rigid mango
Go back to your channel please.
I'm over having these conversations over and over again fuu.
vestal wren
then why do you go down that rabbit hole even tho i instructed you not to
normal raptor
/popcorn
shut garnet
to be fair there are people doing 20s+ with hb, high crit and 3eb
so it isnt just "not viable"
elder gulch
^
shut garnet
its just a question of whether its the most optimal setup
which mathematically it might not be
but is the difference THAT big that it cant be preference?
elder gulch
and the playstyle with the group
shut garnet
yeah exactly
elder gulch
it's incredible hard to theorycraft/sim for m+
elder gulch
it can be different every run
shut garnet
sims will ALWAYS say EB is better
but tanks just dont play like bots
well, they do 
vestal wren
sim will point to the highest output
cobalt gyro
You'll find at higher levels it's a lot more feels over reals
shut garnet
but not sim-optimal
vestal wren
that is not nessecerly the best
shut garnet
ya exactly
cobalt gyro
Iris sims better in almost every case for aoe bit most people run blood
shut garnet
if the hb build is only like 1% worse, but it just feels a lot better to play why would u ever try to learn a different playstyle
strange python
O I have a question about that
shut garnet
with potentially different gear to get
vestal wren
but there is an argument to be made that if you do a group that every mob need to die, so having that faster is probably wanted
elder gulch
there was a rogue I saw a month ago who was (maybe still is) pushing the highest keys and was running CT
strange python
So since I’m running 3xSS. Would my rotation be
Garrote X1 X2 X3 rupture vendetta TB BotE envenom?
strange python
No big pulls
cobalt gyro
It depends on target count
mystic dragon
Sounds legit
shut garnet
you don tuse vendetta on big pulls with no prio target
but normally you'd do g g g rup blood
and then fok + tb + envenom
strange python
Let’s just say freehold first mob near first boss
shut garnet
basically prio target -> spam FoK + envenom on it
no prio-> spam fok
but then again thats dependant on traits
rigid mango
Depends on target count, but sure.
shut garnet
and target count yes
strange python
I’m running only 1xEB
shut garnet
then you should probably ignore CP at like 7-8 mobs
rigid mango
Then you need 10 targets to make it worth to ignore CP.
shut garnet
i thought you get enough value from 8 hmm
cobalt gyro
I've been playing with CT a bunch more @rigid mango
It's kinda dumb how hard it blasts
shut garnet
something like that anyways
rigid mango
Not according to the sims fuu did.
mystic dragon
Should I just abandon this spec on Orgozoa mythic?
strange python
What’s CT? CP? Combo points?
rigid mango
CT = crimson tempest
strange python
O
shut garnet
@mystic dragon depends whether you need boss dmg or prio dmg
rigid mango
CP = Combo points
shut garnet
ask your RL
cobalt gyro
I couldn't get a sim working but single target i found maintaining CT did about 9% of my damage
strange python
I don’t really do CT because it’s an extra button 😄
cobalt gyro
So ya i really wanna see how that sims
mystic dragon
Kk, cause if I could just big chill on boss that would be dope but RL currently wants more add cleave
shut garnet
i know seli doesnt use CT on st fights when he plays itin dungeons
which i guess its because it's just less optimal than using envenom if you have a ttk
ya then probably switch to outlaw
rigid mango
Issue with the build is optimisation
strange python
Ty guys gonna try it out
rigid mango
It's one of the ones where like, you can absolutely blast aoe probs
But you're essentially left with no ST, no lower target damage, in comparison to other builds/specs
deep solstice
CT does less damage than an envenom ST and doesn't give you an envenom buff. math should be fairly clear
rigid mango
primarly looking at outlaw
cobalt gyro
I was out blasting outlaw on most of the big pulls
rigid mango
And this is where the standstill comes, where you want to sim the stuff to see weakpoints
but all the sin sims are scuffed
So you can't, so all you can do is try to gather info from real life play
and try to patch together reasoning
deep solstice
If you expect a sim to predict the dps you yourself do, you are using it wrong in the first place
rigid mango
You can try to do so for specific scenarios though.
Not entirely out of an entire dungeon
shut garnet
in m+ it's just a fact that the most optimised assa build is LESS OPTIMAL than the most optimised outlaw build
which is also a lot easier to get lul
rigid mango
More to get a grasp of what numbers and what breakpoints the builds have
cobalt gyro
I don't think that's true at all
rigid mango
when does it surpass/get surpassed by X or Y
You can and should be able to do simple, focused sims that should show a lot
shut garnet
it just depends how hard you're trying to minmax
rigid mango
Less about minmaxing
shut garnet
as i said there's 2 build rn that ppl are currently using on 20s+
rigid mango
MOre about finding new builds
shut garnet
itd be amazing if there were 10
but that's more to do with the state sin is in comparison to outlaw
rigid mango
Yeah well, for most of them it doesn't matter, people play HB even though it's inferior
And it still works out
we're not talking about % gains/losses of current builds
vestal wren
in the end all that tells you is that m+ is opinionated in what is best
rigid mango
They're essentially set in stone
Just talking about trying to find something new that can surpass it
Surpass the current ones
deep solstice
What's best is whatever you and your group have the skill to play effectively, as long as it is not objectively bad.
cobalt gyro
The sims basically say that this CT build at every target count destroys the traditional EB crit stack
rigid mango
But the sims are also scuffed
cobalt gyro
Indeed
rigid mango
shut garnet
they'll only get better over time im sure
vestal wren
I still see simc as a supplement to help you evaluate.
If used in that area and the user is able to abstract good its a very usefull tool
cobalt gyro
I basically have very similar to the set we used in those sims, thus I've been trying it in reality
deep solstice
I only have rank 2 lucid so Conc Flame minor sims way higher for me. #sad
At what point is MA supposed to be better than subt for ST. Still sims like 1k behind with my set
rigid mango
If you don't have any shrouded
deep solstice
Ah, so it is only if you dont have shrouded
shut garnet
well, it isnt
shrouded is pretty bad on st
so you should try replacing it asap if you can
deep solstice
My other option on that piece is Loyal to the End...but I pug a lot and dont feel like reforging constantly
shut garnet
btw does anyone know whether MA crit chance applies to currently ongoing bleeds on the target?
brisk zealot
until you run out of blade flurry charges 🤡
tropic ocean
HAHAHA
raw lotus
Does anyone have any advice on how to increase damage on the Hulks on Mythic Ashzara ?
rigid mango
get more cyclo's
rigid mango
press TB on it?
rancid bobcat
run prey on the weak
TB usually comes up for me when hulk spawns
2nd hulk few seconds before so just hold it
use coral stacks for 2nd hulk too
shut garnet
what trinkets are u running @raw lotus
raw lotus
Font / coral
shut garnet
refresh ur bleeds on whichever boss ur on when the timer for hulk is on 10s, start channeling font with 5cp on 4s left
then go vendetta as soon as it spawns -> rup -> garrote -> mut -> tb -> blood-> vanish envenom
ive been on prog for like 60 -80pulls and i think thats the most optimal way so far
rancid bobcat
theres no way you need to dump that much damage into hulks
i mean
well i guess you might
rancid bobcat
something's going wrong with the rest of your raid if you need to dump all your cooldowns into the hulk
rigid mango
That's such a huge waste
olive egret
!essence
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination Essences overview: https://bit.ly/2XaZOVd
shut garnet
well
to be honest
we have ppl doing
like
500k on it
it feels like a huge waste tho but hey
it is the MOST damage you do to hulk answers that dude's question
shut garnet
the thing is we have to stop dps anyway to soak orbs since we dont skip 2nd hulk
so it alligns with p2 start anyways
idk
olive egret
On warcraftlogs, when I click a person's name and the drop down menu reveals their gear, talents, etc., is the order in which the essences are listed the order the person has them slotted? Anyone know?
shut garnet
ya exactly
rancid bobcat
focused azerite beam = major, focused energy = minor
conflict = major, strife = minor
olive egret
Ah ok. Thank you
rancid bobcat
also i think wcl has finally fixed the icons so that the minor has the same icon as major
hmm maybe not
actually looks like they have except for iris minor
but anyway just go by name
olive egret
Yeah, name works
hasty fiber
How ofter do yall run mechagon for a socket ring 2 piece thigh leg combo? Also if i were to choose which rings would be bis
west nacelle
Question can anyone help me with the rogue opener in M+ on large groups? I mean 2-3 and 4+? I’ve been trying to find a video or resource. I think I under stand I open with 3 garrotes then rupture. If it’s more than 3 targets to you try and vanish and apply garrotes to the rest in a 3+ pull? Do you use multiple ruptures? In the pics or just high health mobs? Do you ever use Envenom when you have a large pack? I’m trying to figure out the mindset when approaching a pick in M+
tropic ocean
No
3 g rupture
Bote -> pump
Vanish to re garrote if needed
Envenom + tb on a target that needs to die fast out of the pack
If there is non spread bleeds and finish
steady owl
what is dribbling inkpod good for?
brave vector
From what I understand it’s good for progression and if you Just don’t feel like using font/coral double on Use
mystic dragon
Yeah Dribbling is your lazy-rogue's good trinket
steady owl
are there any specific raid bosses where its especially good?
rigid mango
It's good on most progress bosses
Since all the damage is concentrated to the end, when you will need the damage in a lot of cases
steady owl
but font and coral would still be better? if the item level is the same
autumn slate
Yes
rigid mango
Essentially, if you're struggeling with the last 30% of a boss
It's a really good trinket since it's all concentrated there
You can use either combo, you can see people like nukkz who's split r1 all star sin
Who always uses coral inkpod
steady owl
i think im gonna try it on orgozoa then, cus we've been struggling to do enough damage at the end
rigid mango
Orgo is essentially last 10%
rigid mango
Yeh.
strange python
Is scent of blood any good? Trying to make me st assa build and got it on 3 of my pieces.
arctic walrus
No, no it's not
strange python
It is. Awful.
scarlet sequoia
np
strange python
Eh, unlucky.
slim canyon
Hey guys i'm new to rogue since he's my main alt for the rest of the tier and the next i was wondering on fights when there is little to none downtime how do you use the azshara trinket?
rigid mango
Dump energy > channel for 4 sec pre vend
slim canyon
alright thanks dude
grave elk
does anyone use the afenar WA? i was wondering if the weakaura has conditions for differnt color of cd on a enhanced garrote from SS or subterfuge. The previous weakaura grp i used does have that tracked so it would be a lot easier for me if that was the case
sonic ferry
u can just type that into google and its like the top link
grave elk
type what into google sorry
sonic ferry
empowered garrote weak aura
grave elk
yeah ill prob just go use luxthos weakaura grp. cuz he has the conditions set into his. id rather just use one weakaura. damn i like how afenar looks too
sick vine
just copy what luxthos does into the other WA, it's really not that complicated
muted cove
is it worth it to snipe one of the briny bubbles with rupture to get energy back?
on ashvane
arctic walrus
low cp yea
strange python
Is 428 ilvl appropriate for Heroic EP ?
rancid bobcat
Probably
brave vector
so i just pulled gloves, wrists, and boots with a socket from benthic vendor, whats generally the order i want to upgrade them?
cobalt pelican
general rule of thumb is aim for socketed versions and upgrade whichever you get socketed first
brave vector
i just got all 3 socketed
cobalt pelican
in terms of actual priority order on them really it's basically wrist/gloves -> belt -> boots
that's.. lucky
brave vector
a lot of alts that i did opening quest line with /shrug
cobalt pelican
as long as you're sure they're the right ones basically the only one that gains nothing except stats from upgrading is boots
so just upgrade them all equally to around 410ish since that's the most pearl efficient
or, whatever your pearl count on your main allows
then to push to 420+ on pieces just go for wrists i guess
brave vector
i dont have the belt
cobalt pelican
belt's the easiest to get since there's only 2 belts you can even roll but yeah
brave vector
oh wait is it oris or neris for the wrists?
arctic walrus
You can also just run a droptimizer at 425 and see what gives you the most
Oris or wristwraps
brave vector
oh ok those are the ones i got socketed sweet
droptimizer takes the procs at 3% crit damage into account?
arctic walrus
If you have it equipped
strange python
I've searched for info on conductive ink and haven't found an answer to this yet (maybe I should post in theorycrafting channel instead?)... Does Dribbling Inkpod proc count as an "ability" (or I suppose trinkets in general for that matter) ? Specifically, does the "Conductive Ink" dmg proc benefit from Vendetta window and Toxic Blade buff (since Conductive Ink is nature dmg) ?
strange python
Okay so only class-specific abilities... thanks for the confirmation!
*Spec-specific
plucky stream
@hasty fiber Yes we're holding, and how many times did i 3 point env?
hasty fiber
quite a bit looking at it
also i dont usually do fan of knives on briny bubbles
prob just best to 2-3 pt rupture the bubbles and then back go on boss
depends on how long you think the bubbles last
turbid osprey
If I mut boss during bubbles and get 4cp is it still worth rupturing the bubble or do i just env boss?
tropic ocean
from a dps view if the bubble dies during rupture/rupture is not ticking out you are losing dps
however if your raid needs bubble dmg rupturing them or even envenoming them might be good to clear the encounter so its your individual choice
turbid osprey
I was trying to drop low cp ruptures on the bubbles for energy regen mostly
tropic ocean
its up to you, as long as the bubble lives through the rupture duration you're fine
tropic ocean
if you have no issues with bubble dmg you should just ignore them
dense cedar
turbid osprey
Is it worth holding 2nd vend for 2nd guardian if the fight is less than 6 mins long?
tropic ocean
you hold vendetta whenever its your last vendetta for the fight
to pair it with guardian
turbid osprey
Ok ty
Ended up attempting some on the fly decision making about cds last night and messed up a bit lol
tropic ocean
so in 6 min fight you'd hold vendetta 3 to pair with guardian 2
turbid osprey
Yeah but any less than 6 hold the 2nd one
tropic ocean
?
tropic ocean
you use vendetta 3 times in a 6min fight
and 2 of them are paired with guardian
first and third
tropic ocean
your 2nd vendetta will be available 1min prio to guardian
so you hold guardian to pair with 3rd vendetta
turbid osprey
A 6 min fight you would cast the 3rd vend as it dies though no?
tropic ocean
no
turbid osprey
Wait no
tropic ocean
cast on pull
turbid osprey
Lmao
turbid osprey
Stupid brain
tropic ocean
😛
tropic ocean
It more comes down to the encounter
like zaqul or queen where you need burst at certain points (thats why bote is so popular there)
for fight times, you need to sim it but probably fight times that are just a little below another guardian usage
can make bote superior
vast forum
yea, CLF is just insane
turbid osprey
Did feel pretty nutty first few times I used it
lethal heart
blood minor is deadweight
shut garnet
do you guys think itd be an overbuff if they made exanguinate do what it does currently to ALL of your running bleeds rather than on one target
rigid mango
It'd be bonkers for m+ for sure
shut garnet
i feel like thatd make high mastery CT rogue actually top
exactly
it'd have outlaw like burst
shut garnet
and with the current builds that ppl run
rigid mango
It'd be stupid