Benthics
#assassination
distant lava
floral needle
Hey guys i wonder how wow works right. When i have master assasin talent chosen and i use rupture plus garrote right after stealth. Will bleeds have + 50% crit for whole time it lasts ? Or only for this short 4 sec long ? Same questions about bleeds adding to target having elaborate planning buff active. +10% dmg will last for whole time or only when buff is active ?
winter moss
yep
thats what dynamic means
adapting constantly to statchanges procs and all that fancy stuff
floral needle
So there is no point putting bleeds on target whilr having ep plus ms active ? Its better do envenom than to put dots ?
winter moss
that's why our opener changes from gar mut rupt to mut rupt mut during ms
floral needle
Thx a lot for info 🙂
winter moss
yw
young portal
How many NP do you guys run for deliriums on Za'qul? Is one sufficient or did you slap more on?
young portal
Yeye, playing bote, lucid+vision
floral needle
Whats ur ingame nick and realm tox mac chiggen ?
distant lava
why would you run more NP ? for the burst dmg on the add ?
young portal
Yeah burst on the add is what I had in mind, plus the burst in the initial puncture in p2
distant lava
I mean if it doesn't make your azerite that much worse why not, but I wouldn't go out of my way to do that
you can easily burst 2mil + on the echo with 1 NP and if the other 3 dps can't do 4 mil your 2nd NP won't help
winter moss
@floral needle why u wanna know 
floral needle
Looking for some exp player to follow and u seem exp 🙂
floral needle
Pm me
winter moss
nylerah-antonidas
floral needle
Thx 🙂
Omg gplden logs mythic 😮
What u recommend me to play assa or outlaw ? How is current meta ?
I love mutilate but i see u got golden logs as outlaw ?
Nah mb assa raids u have
Do you also play assa on m pluses ?
winter moss
i got golden logs as otl? wat. what fight xd
depends on the fight
single target i play assa
heavy cleave outlaw
and yeah played some m+ as assa too
young portal
Yeah fair enough DJ, cheers for the input
floral needle
How do you feel playing m plus as assa is it worth ?
cloud sandal
winter moss
assa is alright in m+
floral needle
Ye so got to have 2 sets of gear. Which is fine.
modest tendon
Surely you don’t have 15 pieces of 445 azerite gear though?
winter moss
all in all i have 11
but some are double used for otl aswell
and engi helm doesnt count tho so i have 9
modest tendon
I have like 4 sets but one i have to share my shimmer scale around 3 of them
placid mulch
Engi helm doesn’t count? Boo that’s like 4 by itself
native fable
Could you elaborate on what traits those 3-5 sets contain?
placid mulch
Different combinations of ss, ttk, eb
And then dd / np / bbi for st
And everything in between. Some like a sob build for orgo
winter moss
various amounts of azerite pieces depending on the situation with traits mixed up from 3eb/3ss to 1ss ttk 2 eb
and all around setups like 2/2/2
or a set w 3ss/2ttk/1eb for kr and tos
and all w diffrent stat distribution
or trinkets
and as said
2 raid sets 
dark crag
1 ma and 1 ss cleave maybe
winter moss
Old raids (where benthic doesnt work) and one w benthic
ember rover
Oh that makes sense.
pliant snow
Is the infusion trait op? I would have to drop a dd or a np worth it?
cobalt pelican
blightborne? it's not 'op', it's good
whether you should drop something for it is a sim question
ember rover
It's good, but it's on a piece that has all good options.
Which is why it makes it OP.
The piece, not the trait.
rigid mango
I mean, saying that blightborne isn't op is sorta wrong too
Seeing as how as a standalone trait it's pretty much BiS
cobalt pelican
the stat budget on bbi is not abnormally large
exotic rose
Hey guys, on queens court, is it worthy to keep dots on both bosses at the same time?
or the movement is not so worthy it?
tropic ocean
so at the moment u refresh ur dots on boss1
shadowstep to boss2 and go at him
and when shadowstep is up again, repeat
lone mirage
Guys is There anyway to play sub talent in raid , i really hate MA
rigid mango
Less damage 
exotic rose
thanks @tropic ocean
tropic ocean
@lone mirage you can use it on queens court, its doing pretty much same dmg as ma
lone mirage
Yes , but its less dmg on other boss i know
tropic ocean
you need to make sure that you combine it with shadowstep then though
so you can ss dot both bosses
foggy flume
Quick question guys, as i read above on some other answers , for sin M+ you need a variance of azerite pieces depending on the dungeon, is there any point where you would want Nothing personal instead of say for 1 ttk ?
lone mirage
I dont know but i run 3ss 1ttk and 2 eb ans i do awesome damage
tropic ocean
in 3rd boss tos or smth but basically never used or seen any higher rogue using it
exotic rose
how do i open on court with Subterfurge?
garrote rupture garrote target 1
shadowstep target 2
vanish garrote rupture garrote?
shut garnet
probably pop sprint so you can g focus target, g 2nd target then shadowstep garrote main target and rupture, then carry on with the combo? idk
i dont think ive ever seen anyone play subterfuge in raids 
foggy flume
Okay thanks guys, I have gear for 2 eb 2 ss 2 ttk or 1 eb 3ss 2 ttk
so i guess i dont need the nothing personal one
tropic ocean
@exotic rose
qc opener with subterfuge
or like this:
https://prnt.sc/pebigu
dunno which one is better as dps is very similar
probably 2nd one as more use of ss
frigid sleet
would prolly step to 2nd target after first garrote so you get 23s inside vendetta
manic cairn
winter moss
being behind on ilvl a bit and overcapping nrg
winter moss
95% should suffice
arctic walrus
Wtf is that opener lol
Line up your 2nd set of cds better, read up on it in #tc-updates
robust river
How do you look at the ability sequence? I'm new to wclog s:S
Nevermind
Foudn it
MUT > RUPTURE > GARROTE doesn't seem like the right opener. Ravenholdt has an opener section
@winter moss - where in wlogs do you see whhether you over cap on energy?
rigid mango
Under resources
robust river
Ah found it. Why does it show 100 energy when he's running vgor? Is it % based?
rigid mango
Yep
rigid mango
Actually no, energy isn't % based
robust river
So he capped out a few times losing a total of 28 energy? Does it include passive regen?
24 combo points wasted, I assume thats fairly normal though since you TB on cooldown even if capped and seal fate can push Mut over from 3 points?
rigid mango
Depends entirely
Any seal fate ones are fine
Any TB are fine
Any mutilate are big no-no's
Garrotes are sorta meh
robust river
Keeping garrote up more important than a CB I assume?
But should be planned for better?
robust river
Anyone got an good logs I can look at?
robust river
Just good solid play and rotations etc.
robust river
Oh nice will have a look thanks
rigid mango
1st boss is an easy check for simple rotations
robust river
I'll log mine on Sunday when we raid (heroic though) and let you all abuse me.
rigid mango
Can't wait 
robust river
All top logs using chaet death over elusiveness? I thought elusiveness was the default or is it just for Sivarra?
rigid mango
Elusiveness is never the default
Only for pvp
CD is the obvious default for anything pve, pretty much
There has to be exceptions to make LP or elus better
robust river
I only play on Heroic EP currently so I use Elusiveness so solo tnka the pool drop things :S
rigid mango
I'd just never do that, and just run CD instead
arctic walrus
I wish I had a public log so zine can rip into me
quartz dew
Think the only thing I take elus for is king's rest and even then it's arguable
robust river
Interesting. Will swap over to CD then!
robust river
What is considered a good/acceptable parse or does it vary boss to boss?
arctic walrus
I mean it's your own measure of success
arctic walrus
You just can't have one set rule for a good parse
rigid mango
So it's not just as simple as parsing if you don't try to pad
robust river
Padding? As in add damage or?
rigid mango
Yeah
robust river
So I should take my rotation evaluations from low movement bosses like Sivara then
rigid mango
If I run ST on orgo
eh, you can still parse well on some bosses
and you can also swap the metric to boss damage
to see how well you did in that aspect
arctic walrus
Any patchwork boss is good if you just want to see the cookie cutter rotation
arctic walrus
Other bosses though you just have to know what you're looking for
rigid mango
so essentially I did really well at what I wanted to do
arctic walrus
Last week I got a 70 on aoe and 95 on boss dmg for orgo, so just don't look at one number and simply base your damage off that
rigid mango
Parsing /=/ always doing the best to kill the boss
robust river
Top log for Sivara wasted 67 energy. What a scrub 😄
Only 9 combo points wasted though (2 TB 7 Seal Fate)
rigid mango
That's entirely fine
Generally, if you have really low seal overcap
you should be parsing well
Because it should mean you've been more efficient
Through luck, not how good you are
Someone can triple your seal of fate overcaps and have played just as good if not better
Yet their parse might be lower than yours, so according to that you played better
robust river
Wait what. The top log used Mut > Rup > Gar opener...? TB before Vendetta too...
I guess parse doesn't necessarily mean perfect and you can parse well without 'perfect' rotation?
I wonder if he does that cause it's a short fight? Make sure he gets 2 vendettas in?
If you go mut mut/env mut/env then garrote/rupture up, do you risk losing a 2nd vendtta window?
Kill was 2:40
rigid mango
There u go
found the issues already
He played incorrectly
but killtimer, gear, luck
all helped him to get the best log
That's why the argument "but proplayers/top loggers do this"
is a stupid one
robust river
Yeha makes sense. They're aren't infaliable just a guideline that if your parsing at 50% your probably doing stuff wrong.
Does the alteration to his opener make sense considering the fight duration?
arctic walrus
You can safely look at pretty much like top 20 if you soley want rotation stuff
Maybe like top 10
rigid mango
But you can't
Like he said, top log played stuff wrong
You need to look through a bunch
robust river
He only got the pre-fight font of from what I can see too. Guys shit 
I assume abilities would show font usage?
rigid mango
it shows as latent arcana
robust river
Does it show as a ability cast or just as a buff duration?
Buff shows at top but doesn't show a cast I can see on the left
So he did get it off just doens't show as a cast, just a buff window
Yeah can see it here
robust river
Ah shows as Latent Arcana there
rigid mango
Casts + timeline is the clearest
robust river
Yeha thats much clearer, doesn't show rupture ticks and stuff haha
So he opened with MUT > RUP > MUT > GARR > VEND > TB > ENV >Normal
rigid mango
No vanish?
robust river
Sorry wans VEND > TB > VANISH > ENV
He used Amcestral call too
Which is racial I think?
And gaurdian of Azerotg which is Condensed Life Force i think?
shut garnet
No clf?
robust river
Learning a lot of about reading logs here haha
sour wasp
who cares about rotations when you get back to back lucids and all the seal fates in the world
robust river
Haha 😄
robust river
Wouldn't ENV do more DPS than RUT with master assassin? I thought that was tested and ravenholdt was updated for it?
shut garnet
no but
you wanna apply bleeds in the opener
after that vanish thats exactly what yoo do
envenom, mut, envenom, mut, envenom
robust river
Oh wait Ravenholdt says to use Rup in opener, my bad.
shut garnet
but itd be kinda bad to start off doing mut envenom
robust river
I'm sure Isaw something saying to ENV and rupture lat... Maybe on Infenctious video?
shut garnet
best "guides" to look at are top parses
theyre not very noob friedly but
just copy what they do
rigid mango
Nah, best guide is me
rigid mango
solid nova
A top log isn't always going to be indicative of good play
robust river
Just check infectious, he says MUT>RUP>MUT. I swear someone told me ENV with MA outdamaged Rupture....
I've been doing it wrong for weeks 😦
robust river
Top log wasn't 😄
rigid mango
A lot of them are very imperfect
shut garnet
solid nova
rigid mango
Thing is
You can play garbage
Well, "OK"
And lucid procs, crits, mechanics
etc
be by your side
Kill timer too, for that matter
rigid mango
and you'll parse better than anyone else because it's just how it turned out
sour wasp
or be in a guild like mine that kills stuff in 7 minutes
rigid mango
Hence why parses are good
sour wasp
and never parse
surreal solar
obtuse sequoia
what are the bis essences?
rigid mango
For what?
shut garnet
obtuse sequoia
for raiding and m+
final dust
Depends on what ones you have and at what rank
scarlet sequoia
ripple in space major, the unbound force and vision of perfection minors
dark crag
Or soak form ranks away from boss while ranges stand at the boss
Or ranges standing in boss while solo is up
shut garnet
im around 80 pulls in and i think we're killing it this week
havent had much playing around but i use clf with the normal setup, unmooring whispers gorak tuls blackwater and leeching
heard blood is a lot better which i can see
but yeah i dont think the boss requires any special setup in terms of talents/traits 
worn pilot
so master assassin with dds and stuff like that?
shut garnet
ye
obviously it depends what your RL needs
i mean RAID as a whole
if they need boss prio damage during psychotic splits and echo, you just go normal build and hold all cds till then
if they need cleave well
play outlaw 
shut garnet
blood is probably best
its what most ppl seem to be using
but id argue there isnt too much diff between that and just using clf
severe sedge
timber meadow
so if my cd assignment is for first hulk and I get speared on first hulk.... am i just fucked kinda
rigid mango
@worn pilot blood major + lucid VoP, regular st build, drop a bit of haste for something else if you're going down often
hidden inlet
why are most ppl running exactly one blightborne? is that because of gear availability or its good to have exactly one?
rigid mango
Try to find another piece at 445 with it
vague helm
is it okay to overwrite an empowered garrote in or to get a 5CP envenom?
vapid scarab
royal lantern
why would you even THINK about overwriting a empowered garrote
for ~4-5k more dmg on envenom lol
+garrote is 45 energy
shut garnet
do you guys ever refresh bleeds during psychotic
if i refresh them at pandemic before i go in they always seem to drop off in the last 2-3 secodns
but isnt it a lot more worth it to be casting envenoms rather than ruptures with 5cps
since they can potentially crit for a ton
mighty crown
Do you mean refreshing bleeds on the echo of delirium?
rigid mango
@shut garnet you mean during echo?
shut garnet
no i worded that badly, sorry
punctured
so if i cast font around ~7s before puncture with full cp i can get a full rup in, then garrote blood vend tb and it perfectly corresponds with vanish envenom when it explodes
but when the debuff has around 6s left my bleeds seem to run out
just wasnt sure whether i should refresh them normally at 5.4g and 7.2rup
or just let them run out and use envenoms instead
rancid bobcat
i would just refresh early
minor thicket
If my neck is 65+ what would be the best traits on my neck for M+
scarlet sequoia
bote lucid and conflict
minor thicket
Major being the iris
scarlet sequoia
major being the bote
minor thicket
I don’t have BOTE
rancid bobcat
rupture pandemic is pretty big so the chance that you're clipping a significant amount of of duration by refreshing early is pretty low
harsh anchor
30k honor as of now too for bote making it prime week
midnight orchid
A Warlock friend of mine said that secondaries were weird for affliction (mastery not being as good as sims say) due to benthics. I was wondering if that might be the same for Rogue? Most of my gems/enchants are being simmed for mastery but i notice on logs most people are still running high haste and crit like in pins.
harsh anchor
Does order of enchants matter? Say I sim with quick on mh and deadly on oh - does the proc stay the same regardless of weapon it's on due to muta - only asking for upgrades so I don't have to do another enchant
arctic walrus
sim
shut garnet
USUALLY zaq helm + goraks
is bis
and normally if you cant get a NP on your gear otherwise yes you use np on goraks
but just sim to make sure
honest needle
do u guys dot the briny bubbles on mythic ashvane cause they die super fast ?
rancid bobcat
I would rupture 1 for some quick energy regain
If only there were a DD/NP/OP chest so I could run 2x crit traits
dark crag
If tb isn't up and i have nothing else to do or next tb window is soon and i can get energy in tb window to pump
Like tb env mut env mut nonstop
rough agate
So tb is up right before font and font is off cd during that tb. Use up the tb's duration before fonting yeah?
For the 2nd font sorry
arctic walrus
Yes, or you can forego that tb and save it for vendetta
but that wastes a use so I wouldn't recommend that
vast forum
if you use font+coral
use font just after a TB
so that when you vend+next TB, you can also pop your coral stacks after the MA window
rough agate
aight thanks
rancid bobcat
so my team wants me to follow up kidney after a binding shot on the hulk for prey on the weak
can i kidney any time before the binding shot ends? because i've mainly been trying to clip the end of it so it doesn't break it early, but i did it a little earlier than normal by nistake once (like 2s before binding falls) and noticed it didn't break the binding shot (but got infuriated after binding shot ended normally)
kinda don't wanna just test it out on a live pull and fuck it up
arctic walrus
Yeah 1-3s is a good time to kidney
rancid bobcat
yeah but if i do it earlier will it cause infuriated still?
arctic walrus
The mechanic as a whole is pretty buggy in of itself
Sometimes it'll eat the whole kidney, other times it insta wears off
rancid bobcat
ah
just seeing, cause if i can do it earlier that means more prey uptime during binding
arctic walrus
How quickly is your add dying
rancid bobcat
it can take a while sometimes
average 15s which is reaching the rune
and still the occasional pull where it gets a stomp off
what i think happens is as long as the kidney doesn't run out before the binding, the binding will stick
yeah it seems like that's what happens
devout thicket
https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/character/eu/burning-legion/nyix considering my current gear the best idea would be to chase benthic gloves next, right? or are the boots more important and I should look for them despite of LW first?
arctic walrus
gear compare them and pick the higher choice
rancid bobcat
i'd expect boots to come out on top
devout thicket
well, these are the results, gloves on top, also simmed with 440 boots, as I'll have the ornaments next reset
dense cedar
why did u sim the boots at 420 @devout thicket
and gloves actually
Also u seem to have simmed ur character in M+ gear
meager nebula
Why did you sim the benthic gloves and boots separate
rancid bobcat
Probably to see which would be better to go for first
meager nebula
Yeah, but then it doesn't show a double benthic combo
And then he assumes the crafted boots are better
worn crag
Guys I have one question to you. I got 445 golden plumage out of my weekly chest. How do I use it with coral because it shares 20 seconds cd...
tropic ocean
no other way than alternating them i suppose as the duration of plumage is too low to stack it with coral and vendetta
bright tusk
For mythic+ should I use
3x Shrouded suffocation & 1x Echoing blade
Ilvl's: 435, 435, 435
Or
2x Shrouded suffocation & 2x Echoing blade
Ilvl's: 435, 435, 450
rancid bobcat
What are the other 2 traits
bright tusk
those are my total on all 3 pieces
rancid bobcat
You only listed 4 total traits for each set
bright tusk
My shoulder have both SS and EB.
Head has only SS
my 450 chest has only EB and I can swap it to 435 chest for an additional SS and lose the EB
@rancid bobcat You mean inner ring traits?
rancid bobcat
No
rancid bobcat
bright tusk
Okay, total outer traits (Order, head, shoulder, chest):
Alternative 1:
SS, Nothing Personal
SS, EB
EB, Double Dose
Alternative 2:
SS, Nothing Personal
SS, EB
Twist the Knife (or Scent of blood), SS
worldly iron
running both a NP and DD for m+ is not very good, so I would probably go for alternative 2
then you'll only have one bad trait
3SS, 1EB, 1TTK is not too bad
I like to run 3SS, 2TTK, 1EB so you're not far off from that
bright tusk
Aye, I don't have a lot of pieces to choose from yet.
I could swap those traits out for their alternatives probably.
What other traits are good for m+ in the outer ring? Except SS and EB
worldly iron
TTK
that's basically it, EB, SS and TTK
maybe blightborne infusion
but I've never had that for m+ so I'm not super well informed
bright tusk
I see, thank you very much for the input! It's hard finding m+ information on different websites etc, best advice I get is from here.
worldly iron
it varies a lot for assassination from week to week in terms of affixes
and it's pretty hard to get a good gear set going for this spec
asking here is probably the best you can do
bright tusk
Yeah its hard, and I only just started hoarding all azerite armor so I don't have a lot to choose from. Thanks again
cobalt pelican
generic stat traits are usually a pretty good bet
if you can sub dd out for something like tradewinds for example
worldly iron
right, that or like.. swirling sands, yeah?
cobalt pelican
yeah
worn crag
@distant lava you were right it doesnt sim highest together. harlan + coral is best for me
devout thicket
@dense cedar well, 420 is pretty easy to reach after you already get the item (spent 200+ pearls just to get the belt, and that's the easiest part to get), I don't think there is much point at simming at 385. lol @ m+ gear, I have started gearing this character last wednesday, so not much gear to pick and choose unfortunately.
dense cedar
Why not sim them at max level tho @devout thicket
Also idk
I feel like Runious bolt is probs better for ST than EB
devout thicket
will be quite a while before i get them to 425 i suppose
yeah I will most likely change it for TEP, I thought id stick it as I still run some m+ before that
dense cedar
fair enough
tropic ocean
@nocturne gate lower cd than clf so usable to burst when needed throughout the fight (adds, azshara), also way higher burst than clf you can vendetta bote first add and 3rd add and azshara with bl
bright tusk
About neck essences for mythic+, what's the general idea about them?
Which major and minors should I use?
I realize this is up to change depending on affixes etc
I'm using Focusing Iris, condensed life force and crucible
tropic ocean
major bote/iris - minor lucid dreams + conflict and strife
bright tusk
Only have rank1 bote and rank2 lucid dreams rank1 conflict and strife
that okay?
My other essences are rank3
distant lava
bot rank 1 is not ok no
bright tusk
I see, I will spam some battlegrounds then ouch. Ty again both of you ❤
tropic ocean
also get r3 lucid its pretty easy and the versa is big
bright tusk
yeah I just need to save some pearls, I've been prioritizing pearls for raidgear.. :/
but will do
Am I supposed to use Garrote out of stealth on cd when fighting trash in m+?
Or just spam FoK and envenom?
tropic ocean
in a trashpack that has at least 3 mobs you garrote each out of stealth
then you put 3 ruptures
if theres 4 or 5 mobs you keep 4-5 bleeds up (only ruptures after the first 3 garrotes) depending on your haste to have a positive energy regen and then you spam fok/envenom depending on the pack
vendetta can be used for priority target or when in need of energy however
bright tusk
Alright, so no garrotes after the initial three when breaking stealth?
bright tusk
I see, vanishing and using garrotes is ok?
tropic ocean
if pack lives long enough and you need dmg u can vanish and apply 3 garrotes again
just be sure you have vanish/vendetta for boss or vanish up when you're needed to use it to skip something
bright tusk
Aye, thanks again a LOT.
tropic ocean
np dude anything
bright tusk
it's hard to stay relevent in m+ as assassination
had a few "sighs" when people realize
tropic ocean
just play a lot and add ppl you had good experiences with, rest comes along that dont worry
and don't let others get yourself down, I got kicked from group for using 420 azerite helm, just move on
bright tusk
Oof, well thanks man
worldly iron
assassination is very viable in m+. the people who won't allow you to play that are probably pretty bad to begin with, and you'll have a better time playing with other people
bright tusk
Thanks again, for both assa advice and life advice ❤
green saffron
Hi, I just got shoulder Gold-Tasseled Epaulets (1x DD; 1x Tradewinds), I'm using Tentacle-Laced Spaulders (1x DD; 1x Nothing Personal).
I already have 1x Nothing Personal trait in my chest armor. My question is, is it better with 2x NP or should I use 1x Tradewinds instead? I feel if I use Tradewinds, My dps should be higher when out of Vendetta CD, but overall DPS should be the same, and overall raid dps will have little boost since Tradewinds buff Mastery for 1 Ally?
worldly iron
tropic ocean
the answer lies in raidbots.com
worldly iron
I see the way you're thinking, but you should just sim it and equip the highest one
green saffron
ye, I already tried sim it, there is no different with my personal DPS. Just don't know if Tradewinds would be better in practical for total raid dps .
worldly iron
it won't really change anything in the big picture
tropic ocean
the tradewinds buff will be very minor, but yes if your own dps dont change it will be more benefical to run tradewinds, however if you need burst dps for the encounter, 2nd np will be superior
zinc zealot
@tropic ocean you wouldn't save vanish for skips 100% not worth it
distant lava
yeah dude wtf
tropic ocean
and no u dont run into the dungeon and dont use vanish until skip
you use it and time that you'll have it avaible when the skip is happening
rigid mango
Unless you 100% know you have not utility use up in the next 2 min
Why use it and risk wasting time
The dps gain is a smaller gain than the potential from skip
zinc zealot
if you are doing a death skip you would just die and get rezzed.
rigid mango
You alone, or more people?
zinc zealot
either.
rigid mango
No on the first one, yes on the second
tropic ocean
you are using vanish
rigid mango
If everyone's getting mass ressed doesn't matter
tropic ocean
so you don't need to deahtskip
tropic ocean
on a deathskip (solo) you waste 15? seconds or what the deathtimer is + the res waiting time and for group deathskip you waste a br and 5x deathtimer
so y vanish skip >>>> vanish dps
rigid mango
^
distant lava
you waste 15 aus
zinc zealot
you loose 7-8 seconds on the timer for the death. but not using vanish > tripple garrote is worse
distant lava
it's like 10 s - haste + 5 secs on the timer
vestal wren
just play treehugger and use shadowmelt
distant lava
rigid mango
I mean, just the amount of time lost from everyone afkin
tropic ocean
@zinc zealot your statement is wrong, im sorry
distant lava
having your group do nothing for 15 secs is not worth 3 SS garrotes
rigid mango
The potential dps loss
From 4 people being afk
Is greater than using vanish for dps
tropic ocean
not using vanish for triple garrote on in a pull is a very minor dps loss over the course of the dungeon
4 people being not able to do anything is big
rigid mango
Objectivly wrong play.
Unless you KNOW you need the 3 silence for a very specific pack
There's no way that's a gain
tropic ocean
lets take the bridge elemental as example
zinc zealot
theres really only one situation you would need to die
and is the brdige pack on Shrine
tropic ocean
if you deathskip it you lose deathtimer+res or cr whatever
if you vanish it
group can already do trash
while u deal with it
same with vanish skip in tol dagor first floor
not vanishinf elly on bridge
tropic ocean
+if you dont vanish skip ele in sots but deathrun it
depending on timer you need to wait for patrol
as well
tropic ocean
nah
if you decline to use vanish for skip cause you lose dps
you're one of the reasons people dont wanna take sin
rigid mango
Not saying you should decline it, but the entire convo is null if you run with an outlaw
Which, isn't outlandish, and would be good anyways
zinc zealot
just play alliance and have shadowmeld
tropic ocean
just don't do the dungeon so you don't need to skip
zinc zealot
true
tropic ocean
but jokes aside, you will always want to prioritize using vanish for skipping stuff over using it for dps
unless you have another rogue that plays outlaw
dark crag
Is there a video how the ele skip should look like?
distant lava
there is I think I recorded one
on home pc tho
basically shoot him hide behind the little pillars in the hallway
when he comes close riposte / evasion
when he casts the targetted spell you cloak
get a bit away as soon as he start the storm you sprint vanish
green saffron
I'm thinking about trying Vision Perfection Esssence with 3x NP for M+? Will it be viable? SInce I can have Vendetta for almost every pack.
tropic ocean
no
using 3 st traits with a st essence won't improve your mythic+ especially for packs
cobalt pelican
you don't need to be super fancy with it really, any method of taking it back abit (up the rock, in the corner, back down the hallway if you're a coward) and not dying is fine
dark crag
Where does the group stand?
cobalt pelican
left corner usually
tropic ocean
left of bridge on rock
steady owl
Do you always have to kill the pack before him?
tropic ocean
if you want to vanish skip it yes
cobalt pelican
for your first time just drag it into the hallway tbh and you'll understand how much room you have
but you can do it v close to where your team are standing without issue
tropic ocean
you play the pack for % anyway as its an easy pack with good %
steady owl
But is it important to wait until he starts casting storm? So he stands still?
tropic ocean
u pull him to the pillar then you pop evasion
you wait until he casts shock or whatever its called on you, you cloak it meanwhile your team has passed the bridge
you run over bridge and vanish
steady owl
Ok thanks. I’ve been wondering how to do it, last time I chickened and had the mage do it who had more experience than me. Didn’t want to risk the key
tropic ocean
minute 2:34 and onwards
heres even shown how to skip the pack+ele
you basically do the same pull mob behind team will pass u use cd cloak run over bridge vanish
near oar
guys sorry if there is a question about this but ill have to repeat it. Whats the best time to use coral? I just got it so im abit ignorant about it sorry.
dark crag
!coral 
prisma monolithBOT
The way to use coral in M+ is using it on your priority target,
and then whenever that target dies, reapply it to your next target.
Whenever your target dies it gives you the crit it would give from using it,
so consuming the stacks for crit mid pack is generally suboptimal.
rigid mango
Just with vend
near oar
cheers
nocturne gate
tropic ocean
!wa
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination WA's for BFA:
https://wago.io/HJUbINlV7 (Mizerok's Group)
https://wago.io/E1EB91OtM (Lokkek's Group)
https://wago.io/SyLUNGD4X (Sovv's Group)
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)
tropic ocean
You can take one of those and build up on it
I personally can recommend mizerok one
jaunty ginkgo
well the duration depends on combo points
cobalt pelican
30% of the base duration of the applied buff/debuff
rigid mango
Yep
jaunty ginkgo
does it depend on the number of cps i cast the original rupture with or the one I'm about to cast?
rancid bobcat
About to cast
rigid mango
If you cast a 5 cp one, it'll be within 7.2 sec of it dropping off that you can reapply a new one
4cp is 6.4 or something? and so on
lament dove
I meant that if you applied a 5 CP one and after that you apply another one at e.g. 3 sec left, then it's 3 sec that will be added to the next one, it's not depending on the next one's duration - that's how I understood the question at least
jaunty ginkgo
thanks for the info I understand now
vast forum
It is dependent on the next one'a duration
If you cast a 5cp rupture and overwrite it with a 3cp rupture you don't get 7.2 added to the duration, you get 4.8
If u cast a 3cp rupture and overwrite it with a 5cp rupture you get 7.2 added
So the pandemic window is dependent on the rupture you're about to cast, not the rupture that is already on the target
@jaunty ginkgo
gusty mirage
I feel like I'm sort of hitting a wall with a 2x SS, 2x DD, 1 NP build, I vanish and reapply empowered garrotes every time I can and typically have a >90% uptime on garrote and rupture. Looking at the few logs that my guild did have running ( https://www.warcraftlogs.com/character/us/area-52/oxxi?mode=detailed&zone=23#difficulty=4 ), I feel like I'm doing something wrong because it feels like my DPS should be higher. I know the benthic gear could help me jump up quite a bit but we're not a mythic progression guild so I never really bothered. I did just get a coral last night, so I'm hoping that'll help. (Up to date profile to easily see my gear: https://raider.io/characters/us/area-52/Oxxi )
vast forum
i'm just checking your best behemoth log, you only garroted boss once on pull, instead of twice (For full pandemic duration)
you also used vendetta 17 sec into the fight, instead of like 4-5
gusty mirage
Should I aim to pop vendetta after applying my first rupture? I tend to wait a little so I don't overcap energy
arctic walrus
Your opener is very wrong
vast forum
basically, your opener was garrote(puffer)-garrote(boss)-rup-mut-tb-env-mut-mut-env-mut-mut-env-vendetta
gusty mirage
so I always go unbridled for boss fights?
arctic walrus
You are wasting a ton of combo points, you can finish with 4 cp, you don't mutilate to get 5
vast forum
your opener on behemoth should be g(puffer)-g(boss)-g(boss)-rup-essence-vendetta-mut-tb
don't worry about overcapping energy on pull
arctic walrus
You sit at very high energy most of the time
gusty mirage
I just knew I was messing something up somewhere, thank you I really appreciate it! 🙂
vast forum
best advice is to go through the guide, try it out a bit on a dummy, and come here with any specific questions
in general, you delay your CDs WAY too much in the opener
vendetta and essence
quasi pewter
you dont even use your font after opener or am i not seeing right
gusty mirage
I did notice I was wasting a bunch of cps, so I've made an effort to finish at 4cp more often
Most of the time I wasn't using my font after pull, you're seeing that right
quasi pewter
thats pretty big
gusty mirage
I did notice I was wasting a bunch of cps, so I've made an effort to finish at 4cp more often
quasi pewter
he does have the buff in opener or which log r you looking at
just never recasts it
gusty mirage
I've been trying to find a comfortable point of when to channel the font during bosses, and the channel never really felt right for me. Should I switch to font & coral or stick with 455 dice/coral?
arctic walrus
high highest sivara log
arctic walrus
But yeah like, Even on your most recent kills, you do not open correctly
you're using vendetta, then a few seconds later clf
gusty mirage
I feel like I've been misusing my CDs, and its good to know that I wasn't wrong in that feeling lol
I see where i'm messing up the opener now (repeatedly)
shut pasture
!stats
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination Stat weights:
Single target: haste > crit > mastery > vers
Multi target: crit > vers => mastery > haste
Note: Simming will always result in more accurate results.
modest tendon
3 ss is better though?
shut pasture
dont have
modest tendon
Fair enough 😛
jaunty ginkgo
@vast forum thanks, I thought it was like that. So does the normal pandemic apply from the first rupture?
i.e. I cast a 3 cp rupture (16s)
the pandemic is still 0.3x16
vast forum
no
pandemic adds duration from the current rupture to next rupture up to 0.3x new rupture duration
so first rupture has nothing to add because there's no rupture already on the target
if you have 3 sec remaining on a rupture and you use a 5cp rupture, it will add 3 sec to the duration, not the full 7.2 sec
the idea is that you lose absolutely nothing by refreshing your dots within the pandemic window, whether it's at 0.1 sec remaining or the max pandemic duration
jaunty ginkgo
so I should cast a rupture if the timer for the previous DoT is within the pandemic of my next rupture?
vast forum
yes
obviously try to avoid doing it within TB/MA windows if possible
for example if you have 3 sec remaining on TB and 7 sec remaining on rupture, even tho it's within pandemic, you still wanna envenom and rupture once TB is down
jaunty ginkgo
yeah ok that makes sense
so just to clarify lol
sorry if im being stupid
if I have a 1 cp rupture up (8s)
I could cast a 4 cp rupture (20s) at or under 6s
for pandemic
and it would be a 26s rupture
vast forum
no
jaunty ginkgo
lmao sorry
vast forum
it would be a 20s + the remaining duration
jaunty ginkgo
yeah say I casted it exactly on 6s
vast forum
so if you cast it at 4 sec remaining it would be 24
jaunty ginkgo
yeah yeah sorry I meant that
vast forum
yea then it would be 26
lost horizon
Keep in mind too, refreshing a little bit earlier so that you won't have to during TB is a good idea
rigid mango
It isn't
If it means refreshing outside of pandemic, it's bad
Refreshing during TB is fine if you need to, which you will granted you play it perfectly
I think the APL does it twice during the 5 min?
arctic walrus
Wait zine would you refresh dots if tb is off cd and they're in pandemic, not sure why I'm blanking on this rn
lost horizon
Losing 1-2 sec of rupture vs refreshing during TB, idk about that one tbh
vestal wren
the energy regeneration from bleeds is very important, so not having that is worse then using a bleed less efficient
lost horizon
And by losing I mean overwriting ahead of pandemic
rigid mango
Yeah, that's a dps loss
People've tried time and time again from what I heard
But it always turns out a negative
vestal wren
the only spec where thats good is subtlety
vestal wren
but nightblade is to diffrent to compare that to rupture
rigid mango
It's better than refreshign rupture say, 9 seconds before it's done
jaunty ginkgo
so avoid doing it in tb but do it if it means dropping rupture up time?
lost horizon
Yeah
rigid mango
Exactly that
jaunty ginkgo
makes sense
lost horizon
But honestly I have 0 clue how 2sec of rupture can ever outweigh an envenom in TB
rigid mango
Nor can I, I was shocked too
But when I talked to richard about it, he said people've tried to make it sim better
arctic walrus
yeah I was saying like, if rupture is at 5s or something and tb is off cd you just tb
lost horizon
Like if we're talking about rupture falling off I get it
arctic walrus
yeah nvm, same concept it just hit me
vestal wren
it might end up beeing no gain
arctic walrus
tired af man smh
rigid mango
vestal wren
if its very close in duration
lost horizon
Early refresh though? That's pretty absurd
rigid mango
I mean refreshing early is just to make you able to spam envenoms
vestal wren
like a lot of things in assassination, you can switch up things quite a bit without gaining or losing dps. You will lose them mainly if you do stupid stuff
arctic walrus
There's 3 scenarios: Bleeds fall off, reapply outside of pandemic, apply inside pandemic inside tb
so just pick the least worse of the 3
vast forum
it depends on how far outside of pandemic
arctic walrus
which is reapplying inside tb
vast forum
refreshing on 7.3 is almost impossible to lead to a loss
arctic walrus
pandemic is pandemic, there isn't a "nearly pandemic"
lost horizon
Well it would never be >5sec outside of pandemic
Because TB duration is only 9sec anyway
vast forum
like, refreshing 0.5 sec before pandemic so you have a full TB to use for envenoms sounds like a good idea
arctic walrus
No, because that clips a tick or 2 doesn't it? and now you're low on energy
vast forum
it clips a quarter of a tick
vestal wren
^ it will come down to how strict you get your rules
vestal wren
"refresh rupture early" is very vague
vast forum
i don't think there's been an advanced enough apl
arctic walrus
If you have like, a burst window, maybe I can see it
vast forum
to look into how long before pandemic you can refresh speficifally for TB
TB is a burst window
arctic walrus
but apart from that I wouldn't incorporate it into normal play
vast forum
losing a quarter of a tick of rupture so that 1 more envenom is buffed by 35%
vestal wren
i mean, best thing is just to play around and try to find a condition that works
vast forum
i think is absolutely worth it in every world ever
vestal wren
it should be fairly simple to add another rupture condition that allowes a specific refresh
lost horizon
I honestly don't see how even losing several ticks would outweigh another envenom
But it's probably like fuu said
vast forum
it's just pure math, half a tick of rupture dmg + 3.5 energy is probably worth losing for 35% of an average envenom
rigid mango
nor can I
lost horizon
Marginal impact on DPS either way
vast forum
few ticks = 14 energy which is pretty valuable + the 2 ticks of damage
lost horizon
Right but you're not letting rupture fall off regardless
vast forum
so it's not a question of whether or not it's worth refreshing before pandemic, it's a question of how long before pandemic is it ok to refresh to prepare for TB
jaunty ginkgo
is there any condition to wait for tb?
rigid mango
Downtime on boss
jaunty ginkgo
like do you wait for higher cp?
lost horizon
Nah
rigid mango
If you know you'll have downtime for the entire TB, but can get full one after the downtime
lost horizon
Well okay sure, but on patchwerk no, TB on cd
vestal wren
its fairly simple, under what condition do we want to refresh rupture?
vestal wren
its 1 line of apl, so lets try it
vast forum
you prepare for it beforehand so you don't have to delay it
cobalt pelican
if tb <2sec and pand is within 2sec is what i'm understanding from reading the chat very briefly
jaunty ginkgo
is it possible to 3 envenom in tb?
cobalt pelican
or something roughly like that anyway
vast forum
try "refresh rupture if at 4-5 cp and TB is <2s CD and current rupture is under 9 sec"
@vestal wren
actually, that might lead to losses at 4cp and 9 sec rupture as it's almost 2 full ticks
try same thing but only 5 cp 😛
cobalt pelican
there's a refreshable checker anyway
vestal wren
you know that is a very narrow cp situation
cobalt pelican
so it'd cover both 4 and 5cp if using rupture.refreshable i think right
vast forum
well we're talking very specific situations, fuu 😄
arctic walrus
Why not have it refresh at any cp if you're aiming to simply keep it up during tb
cobalt pelican
5cp situations would lead to like
vast forum
the question was "is it worth refreshing rupture outside pandemic so that you don't have to rupture in TB"
cobalt pelican
not happening frequently enough to show any difference
vestal wren
yes, but you wont have those cp's by default exactly at this time
so you filter out a lot of "situations"
vast forum
yes, but IF it happens ever
vestal wren
but neverless lets try
vast forum
yea xD
that's my problem with simming
sims can't account for every situation ever and some situations call for out-of-sim play but net you like 30 dps or smt 😄
if you play according to sim, you'll do just fine enough, but maybe not the highest possible in that situation
vestal wren
my point is, if you make the condition very restrictive it wont apply often and hence not show a lot of impact
vast forum
exactly
which is why i think players who are still learning the spec should stick to guide/sim 😛
and people who are at or near skill-cap should think/care about these things for their own entertainment
jaunty ginkgo
!wa
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination WA's for BFA:
https://wago.io/HJUbINlV7 (Mizerok's Group)
https://wago.io/E1EB91OtM (Lokkek's Group)
https://wago.io/SyLUNGD4X (Sovv's Group)
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)
vestal wren
lost horizon
Makes sense, is that with 4/5 or just 5?
vestal wren
it happens ~2 times per run, so quite often actually
rigid mango
So you refresh rupture early if within 2 secs?
vestal wren
cp value seems rather unimportant, given the output stays about equal even if i reduce it to >= 2 cp
rigid mango
Pre-TB that is
rigid mango
I understand why, just confirming what he simmed
vast forum
he simmed to refresh rupture under 9 sec remaining if TB is coming up i think
vestal wren
actions+=/rupture,if=cooldown.toxic_blade.remains<=2&combo_points>=2&dot.rupture.remains<=9
refresh ruture if toxic blade cooldown is lower then 2 and rupture remains lower then 9 secs
arctic walrus
So if the timing is within 2 seconds only, do you start your tb with low cp/low energy/not an envenom
vast forum
we made a 0.1% breakthrough today 
vestal wren
i actually think it would refresh rupture pre using tb even if tb comes up
vast forum
yea it would make sense to delay by 1 global in that case imo
vestal wren
probably does.
here is the sim with >=2 cp instead of >=4
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/qBSyGLcRtJMrhKfZnUfucE/simc
arctic walrus
Isn't this just rupture? is garrote still being refreshed during
vestal wren
likely
same condition but with garrote (without cp condition)
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/fiPM2MrcaYNyggsMq1YaTr
cobalt pelican
makes sense, garrote sucks and going into tb with elaborate prolly has some value
0.1% is p small though
i guess it's something to keep in mind but realistically it's just..yeah
nimble tinsel
I was thinking it was more along the lines of you only want to be spending CP's during TB on env, so gar refresh during is less impactful since it at least isn't removing nearly as many potential CP's for env from the table.
cobalt pelican
press rupture
unless you can guarantee not only will it not fall off at all during the tb, but that you'll also get enough spare cps after tb to refresh it prior to it dropping
which you probably can't
so the simple answer is just to press rupture when it's refreshable
vestal wren
0.1% is in a range where you wont notice a diffrence in a log hence your dps variance is far higher
the sim just shows that under this very restricted settings it is a marginal win
limber lion
My hc logs are at 99 average and I can't even get one 95 log on mythic. Feels like the bosses parry/evade/dodge more than on heroic. Is that true or am I just garbage?
quasi pewter
its just significantly easier to get high percentiles in hc
limber lion
But like my damage is way lower as well. 47k after 3m20s on mythic, 56.7k on HC after 2m40s.
40s off and almost 10k damage.
And I even got to use Guardian twice on the mythic pull, so in theory it should be even higher.
cobalt pelican
40s is a lot of difference
quasi pewter
2:40 is almost immediately after 2nd vendetta
limber lion
Right that is true.
quasi pewter
also what boss are you talking about, 1st?
gray pond
is it possible to do more damage than simm in single target fight lets say abbysal comm. Sivara
cobalt pelican
if you open the html report it'll show you what the highest dps of any iteration was
but it's still just that, it's possible to outdo even the highest iteration with a lot of luck and generally people are simming 5mins and not fighting sivara for 5mins etc
gray pond
How much differnce can occure? Is %3 possible
arctic walrus
a lot is possible
cobalt pelican
gray pond
Ah ok i see ty
fluid falcon
do we refresh rupture if we are at 4cp instead of 5 to avoid overcapping?
same question for envenom, first time raiding on rogue
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination Guide: http://www.ravenholdt.net/assassination-guide/
rocky rain
!essence
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination Essences overview: https://bit.ly/2XaZOVd
brisk hound
Looking for advice on how to improve:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/ZnCvyM7xNHqkBbWh/#fight=4
edgy pawn
your opener is weird (= wrong)
brisk hound
Raid lead has us hold CDs for bubble burst
edgy pawn
yeah
but g mut env tb is just plain wrong
you go mut rup mut g
then tb
and cast coral earlier
brisk hound
so mut from stealth?
distant lava
casting garrote at 1 sec and then at 6 secs seems very wrong for me
edgy pawn
yeah, that too
brisk hound
does 1 mut from stealth give enough CP to cast 4+ rup?
distant lava
if you don't get 4
edgy pawn
if it doesnt you go mut mut rup g
quasi pewter
ur bleed uptime is really bad
brisk hound
rog
brisk hound
Probably cause It was my 116th pull on the boss and was trying something different to make up for other people not DPSing to get bubble down fast enough
edgy pawn
and ideally you want to lust in the 2nd burn phase
brisk hound
But I know that is a mistake and just need to hold it for bubble break
distant lava
yep
brisk hound
Was trying to do different things with coral and other trinks
But realized as I did those things my numbers just weren't as high as normal
distant lava
and try so save arcane torrent for vendetta windows when you get starved near the end
brisk hound
k
edgy pawn
i think you could pool better for tb windows
brisk hound
k
edgy pawn
ideally youre at 4 cp and go clf -> vend -> tb -> vanish -> env -> mut -> env
distant lava
and if you're having trouble surviving the big bubbles waves on shield break I would use feint
edgy pawn
tbh tho it doesnt look like youre the problem
distant lava
I'm pretty sure it works, it's been a while since I did ashvane
brisk hound
I have other logs where I was doing better (a lot better), but been trying to do different things to help the raid out
I have ranged that don't move when marked with coral
So as melee I run out so we actually break stuff
then I stand 20 yrds away and soak...
But yeah, got some carries for sure...
edgy pawn
if you can stop using worldvein btw
edgy pawn
iris is pretty good
brisk hound
I have both
distant lava
you did better on another pull
just
don't garrote during the ma window
during a normal TB it's fine but that's a 50% bonus crit global you could have spent on envenom
brisk hound
When using Coral and Guardian of Azeroth, what is the correct sequence for Vendetta?
Is it Guardian > Vendetta > Coral > Vanish > En?
assuming i have 4+ CP
edgy pawn
guardian -> vendetta -> coral -> tb -> vanish -> env
brisk hound
Ok, so then a normal TB window then would be get to 4 CP > Pool resources > TB > Env > Mut > Env > Mut > Env?
edgy pawn
you press tb on cd
while trying to have as much energy as possible when it comes off cd while not capping energy/cps
brisk hound
k
@edgy pawn @distant lava @rigid mango TY all for your help, will try it out and let you know how it goes!
edgy pawn
no problem and good luck!
brisk hound
Situational question. Should I let Garrote or Rupture fall off during MA / TB window?
Meaning, do I choose to re-apply vs mut+Env
nimble tinsel
Ideally you want to have the foresight to not allow them to drop during the window, but if you must make that decision keeping bleeds up is the priority