Aight will check it out!
#assassination
digital shore
digital shore
Neat
arctic walrus
digital shore
Both seem to have 4/6. Not gonna risk my headpiece then. Thx!
Ah chest is 3*
EB and SS piece would be glorious
robust river
Quick one. Benthic gear. Any of them BIS for Assassination? 385 bracers are simming better than 400 with slot non benthic and it seems weird...
7th Legionnaire's BRacers (with slot) -400 ilvl vs Neri's Wavebreakers Bindings (no slot)
If they're good I'll roll for one with slot and upgrade
cobalt pelican
it's pretty much the same for every class
even classes that hate certain stats take the pieces with bad stats because the effect is too good, they're just more likely to replace them before tier end with forged/socketed mythic gear
but as a baseline just assume you want wrists/gloves/belt/boots always
robust river
Ok fair enough. So its' worth spending all pearls on rerolling for each piece then upgrading as appropiate?
arctic walrus
I would get boots first
robust river
Currrent boots have a socket, bracket doesn't so I'm guessing it would be a bigger upgrade for bracers first no?
rigid mango
I'd recommend getting altrs to farm pearls on
so main's pearls are for upgrades only
robust river
120 pearls on boots, 50 on bracers. No luck sadly š¦
glacial steppe
do we go full crit/mastery on fortified and a good mix of crit/haste/mastery on tyrann?
rigid mango
Nope, same old same old crit > mast/vers > haste on both
robust river
385 bracers (no slot) sim better than 420 bracers... Jesus. Tehy really overtuned Benthic that much?
rigid mango
Yes.
cobalt pelican
the affix just isn't a part of the item budget at all so the ilvl is deceiving
chrome forum
i've read the pins, but can/should you use font with coral??
versed mica
You line up coral with vendetta, and you line up font with vendetta, so
rigid mango
It's in #tc-updates , and yes, you really should
It's probabably the best trinket combo out there.
hoary apex
what's the best way to use coral in M+?
shy dust
!coral
prisma monolithBOT
The way to use coral in M+ is using it on your priority target,
and then whenever that target dies, reapply it to your next target.
Whenever your target dies it gives you the crit it would give from using it,
so consuming the stacks for crit mid pack is generally suboptimal.
slim lava
good morning everyone, anyone out there able to help me see why im not parsing high?
i have logs from yesterday
rigid mango
Sure, sup
slim lava
my name is peekabooicu
think i was doing master assassin all wrong, i was going vanish and garotte
rigid mango
So, just looking at first boss
hoary apex
!coral
prisma monolithBOT
The way to use coral in M+ is using it on your priority target,
and then whenever that target dies, reapply it to your next target.
Whenever your target dies it gives you the crit it would give from using it,
so consuming the stacks for crit mid pack is generally suboptimal.
slim lava
damn.. didn't realize that..
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination Guide: http://www.ravenholdt.net/assassination-guide/
rigid mango
what the correct MA opener is atm
slim lava
Ah! Yeah, I was doing the toxic blade one with no shrouded
rigid mango
I mean past the first 3 it's still a bit wrong
You should be ordering
CLF
Vendetta
TB
Vanish
For your major cds there
You never press muti the third time there
arctic walrus
ouch
rigid mango
Your TB windows are consistantly awk and janky, where you don't get more than 1 env in the windows
vendetta after coral and racial, with no vanish
And another triple muti
arctic walrus
You have these general tendencies to just...not do anything for an excessive amount of time
rigid mango
Are you generally aiming to refresh rupture inside of TB? Seems to happen every time when it should be rare-ish
slim lava
yeah, i wish i could say what was going on.. i know i had to move out bc of the debuff, and spear but that wouldn't be the whole reason
I try to refresh rupture when it gets to 1 sec or so
rigid mango
You should refresh within 7.2 seconds
Do you know what pandemic is?
"-Pandemic relates to reapplying buffs/debuffs. When a debuff is refreshed, its remaining time (up to a cap of 30% max duration) will be added to the new buff. Primarily used to give leeway to reapply bleeds, however can also be used to make bleeds last longer."
slim lava
TBH, I am looking at some of these abbreviations and googling them... I just came back after 3 expansions, read the guide and pulled decent DPS but I felt I was wrong in many areas
rigid mango
Yeah if that's your situation this is more than fine
but there's a good amount to sharpen
Mainly the mutilate usage, is quite the big deal
slim lava
I would like to sharpen as much as possible, my guild is stuck on lady ashvane when we miss one DPS in Herioc and I want to try to help pull that off
CLF means what? Im sorry... i cant find that acronym
rigid mango
Condensed life force
slim lava
Ahh yeah... that makes sense.. I set up a macro and sometimes it goes off sometimes it doesnt it's weird. I should just single button it?
rigid mango
Yah, I don't see the need for a macro
slim lava
Should I set up a WA for pandemic?
wide hedge
the only macro I use is to bind autoattack on mutilate lul
scarlet sequoia
But why @wide hedge
rigid mango
if rupture is under 7.2s, and garrote under 5.4 sec remaining
You press the button again
wide hedge
dunno, someone told me to do it when i started my rogue and forgot to get rid of it @scarlet sequoia
i just hate playing with macros
rigid mango
And those remaining seconds get added onto your newly applied one
scarlet sequoia
Start attack macros havenāt been a thing in forever
slim lava
okay, 7.2 and 5.4 sec... awesome! I didn't know, I always thought to play it like roll of the bones like outlaw
rigid mango
RTB pandemics too
You reroll can reroll a bit earlier dependant on buffs
but very minor diff
slim lava
I appreciate the insight. I still don't know why I have such a big window.. it does not feel like it when I'm raiding
rigid mango
I wouldn't worry about those windows that much
There's so many things that could've happened
I'd try to fix the general rotational stuff first
and you'll be fine in no time š
rigid mango
3 things really
opener, overcapping, pandemic
Get those three down and you'll be flying
slim lava
CLF / Vendetta / TB / Vanish around the same time?
rigid mango
There's more minmaxing to be done later but nothing great
The opener should look like this
Muti to 4+
Rupture
Garrote
Muti
CLF
Vend
TB
Vanish
Env
Muti to 4+
Env
etc
Granted, if you get 4 cp from first mutilate, you go
Muti
Rupture
Muti
Garrote
and so forth
slim lava
correct, I don't have any shrouded so it's a pain in the rear-end
You're awesome! Thank you so much.
rigid mango
Gl 
nocturne gate
since when is it the muti opener Ć
slim lava
for Master assassin for the crit
rigid mango
Been like that for uhh, couple months now ish?
polar pier
for m+ running subterfuge do I want to use 3x garrote then rupture things afterwards?
nocturne gate
the first 3 rogues on first boss using 3 different opener so it should be a pretty small difference between them ?!
rigid mango
Far from major, but still better
Do note that it changes dependant on crits
@polar pier 3x garrotes 1-2 ruptures and then fok to build spend on env if you have prio target, if 5+ and no prio fok spam and ignore CP (granted you have atleast one EB)
polar pier
ok thanks Zine!
shut garnet
why did the team that did the top kr key have an outlaw as opposed to assa
since it's such a good key for assa
visual mesa
Its a good, arguebly better key for outlaw
I do think assa might be marginally better in temple and KR though
shut garnet
thats what i was thinking, i know its outlaw's worst key
obviously worst doesnt mean bad necessarily but
rigid mango
3 ss assa blasts in there
People like outlaw for the cc tho
The bridge is relativly nice with an outlaw controlling them
visual mesa
Outlaw doesnt reslly bring anything special to bridge, single target stun is ok, but not amazing
rigid mango
I mean
You can cc so many casts
It's 0 risk
Deals with healing totems better, can solo castera easily
Prey is still a thing
Yadda yadda outlaw bonkers in m+
visual mesa
Casts are 0 issue on bridge except first pack, ewhich garrote brings wayyy better control
rigid mango
Casts matter a lot, totem matters a lot, ccing the diff things matter a lot
Outlaw isn't far behind on boss damage anyways
visual mesa
Have to disagree a bit there, but hey. Lets agree to disagree
rigid mango
I think sin is better, probably, but wouldn't say outlaw is anywhere as far behind as you seem to be implying
visual mesa
Outlaw not far behind on bossdmg is sadly truentho
Haha. Where did i imply that. Scroll up and read, i beieve i said arguebly better key for outaw but personsl opinion is marginally better for assa
Scroll up and read bud
fleet whale
I know this may not even happen, but i wonder what trait set up we would use in the second half of mechagon in M+
stuck knoll
Not in m+
In m+ assa has to spec into a lot of stuff that isn't strictly boss damage outlaw is basically the same
If anything outlaw can potentially beat assa on boss damage depending on length and how many ebs the assa brings(not hugely relevant in KR ofc)
midnight musk
!Essence
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination Essences overview: https://bit.ly/2XaZOVd
arctic walrus
Is it not also a matter of preference. Many rogues at the high level most likely find outlaw familiar enough where they can maximize their performance while not having to relearn nuances of a new spec
shut garnet
im pretty sure that isnt really an argument
If you're a 3.5k io rogue youve played the class for years most likely
so theyre most likely comfortable enough with everything for minmax purposes right
rigid mango
I think you underestimate power of comfort
The amount of times you see higher tier players play something out of comfort that might not be entirely optimal out of comfort and perform better than they potentially would with the optimised option is insanely high.
And fuck me are they a pain to this discord 
bleak spoke
me sorry zine
@shut garnet hit 3.5k last season, started game in bfa and made my rogue for zul :^)
shut garnet
good job, im sure you're very skilled at the game
and comfortable with all rogue specs if you made your rogue for zul :^)
bleak spoke
Hey man my wowaudit says Iāve done 1300 dungeons on my rogue
bleak spoke
Just wish I had more experience in raids
bleak spoke
i too wish i were an eu boy
rigid mango
fleet whale
I kind of wish there were more ingame rewards for doing keys above 15 though
like if you can time every key at 20, you get a really cool cosmetic reward
unique sierra
what is the pvp trait thats really good for ass on azerite pieces?
shy dust
PvP channel would be your best bet
slow quartz
Hey Assassination rogues! Final Boss is doing an Assassination episode tomorrow. Check it out so see a few of our number chatting spec.
vestal wren
should be around 4:30 - 5 PM estern time iirc
unique sierra
@shy dust negative considering there is a pvp trait that is good in raid
there is a pvp piece for azeirte peple are running in pve
so i was wondering which it was
granite rampart
helmet. pvp helm has nothing personal, dd, and overwhelming power. if thats what you are asking
unique sierra
bingo thanks
rare pond
How do y'all open on m blackwater? I typically prepot, garrote and rupture the fish, maybe fit in an envenom if it lives long enough, then vanish -> shadowstep -> garrote the boss and restart my opener from there, but my damage seems to be quite low on the fight
vestal wren
amber quail
What is āassassination episodeā?
cobalt pelican
it's a podcast where they like
talk about a spec
and have some people on who play the spec at a high level
so the entire show will be about poisons, and stuff, i guess
slow quartz
^ exactly that. Talk show for raiders talking about assassination rogues.
vestal wren
its usually the host with 3 persons,
1-2 of those are usually Theoriecrafters the other ones raiders or similar
The host ofc directs the conversation.
i think the shows are fairly long but are a good listen and can showcase the state of a spec/class
bleak spoke
Who was on the show?
vestal wren
i remember aethys, mystler, koji, grayhound and guy
bleak spoke
On the assassination one?
vestal wren
Kojiama is likely one of them, i am not sure who else is confirmed
@slow quartz maybe knows more.
seliathan and flawless where 2 candidates iirc
bleak spoke
POG
tropic ocean
u should be on it too fuu
vestal wren
its about assassination, mystler/koji worked more on those so its reasonable that they are on the series
maybe if he makes subtlety
If its about the discussion about TTK, Koji actually did a lot of work for the priority rotation feature so if that topic comes up he is also more fitting
vestal wren
thanks, but i think the setup is rly good if those 3 are there š
bleak spoke
Yeah flawless seli and koji would be such a great show
vestal wren
assassination is probably a better topic then subtlety
also given subtlety basically entered abodoned state by now.
bleak spoke
Yeah hereās to hoping that by the time that spec show rolls around itāll be next patch and maybe itād be in a more played spot
rare pond
I wanna try sub but I also don't want to try harder at something for worse results
bleak spoke
Yeah exactly, I love the spec but thereās just very few places it can even be argued to be better than the other two specs
vestal wren
i mean subtlety would showcase the issues too(what is good!), but i think it would be overly negative towards blizzard given its current state etc.
bleak spoke
Yeh
vestal wren
the outlaw episode with guy was very enjoyable btw. so i look forward to this one
tropic ocean
what do you think about assa current state
rare pond
Do you have a link to that?
vestal wren
but be warned he does not keep those episodes "short"
oh, Dratnos was there
i forgot
ad assassination: i kind of think melee in general is slightly undertuned
with some exceptions
rare pond
Thank ya
vestal wren
Some issues for assassination might be worth highlighting.
I esp. disslike that CT is undertuned, T90 talents are a mess and blindside is non existent.
Also there is a def. issue in azerite design, most traits are rather boring and lack interaction with the spec.
lost horizon
I'd argue the traits aren't that bad compared to other specs
vestal wren
looking at subtelty
lost horizon
LOL I mean true, but I was thinking for other classes really
Like DD/EB you play around, SS has noticable impact, first NP you can tell having it vs not from energy gain
The impact is small but they're all noticable at least
arctic walrus
traits for sin are in a good place imo
lost horizon
Like look at fire mage, blaster master is cool and you can game it but everything else is passive
stuck knoll
It kinda comes from sins ability to stack shit
Most interesting traits are 1 ofs (with some exceptions)
A lot of assa traits are tuned well which is why they are powerful
vestal wren
most sin powers are just damage on top of an ability
sour wasp
i like many damage
lost horizon
Power aside though you still interact with them more compared to a lot of other classes and their best traits
stuck knoll
I think what fuu means is there's really no punchy change (if that makes sense) you play around EB and DD yeah but it's nothing game changing
vestal wren
i argue agains that
stuck knoll
But I don't think that's a bad thing
vestal wren
they are worth taking tuning wise but they hardly change anything if at all
sour wasp
it's just lazy design
lost horizon
Sure, but I'd say you'd be harder pressed to find specs with those 'game changing' traits
sour wasp
i agree, this is the norm now
stuck knoll
I don't think that every trait has to result in a radically different playstyle
lost horizon
To me it seems like they settled on traits not being that impactful overall
stuck knoll
Because that's a tuning nightmare
vestal wren
f.ex. NV for subtlety is a great trait there as an example that works
stuck knoll
And saying they should just design it better is pretty fuck rude and unfair to the people designing it
stuck knoll
Having traits like Deadshot and DD are fine imo
vestal wren
azerite is designed to have tier set like impact
yet the majority is just " x does more damage"
stuck knoll
And it does it better
vestal wren
i think its fair to say thats lazy design
stuck knoll
Most tier sets could be shit
lost horizon
That's existed for all specs since launch though
stuck knoll
Except you were fucking stuck with it
lost horizon
Not a sin or rogue problem
stuck knoll
Having small mostly damage traits are important for tuning as they make it easy to nerf and reshuffle dps
lost horizon
That's just an azerite trait issue overall, their impact level is low
lost horizon
Trait*
vestal wren
dd has no real impact on the rotation btw.
stuck knoll
It changes the number of targets you mut on
That's an impact
Regardless of how small
Same as ds and ace making you bte on cd
Small but enough that you will do stuff different;y
sour wasp
ttk doesn't impact it but makes pooling before tb more important
lost horizon
It also means you're betting off mutilating within envenom window than not, very small adjustment but it's like EP
Not huge impact but still technically a thing
I'd say TTK has real impact on AoE playstyle just cause of prio dmg
How worthwhile that is for overall DPS is debatable, but it opens up options
stuck knoll
Making 6 spec defining things taht really make a spec feel different is A) hard and B) impossible to balance
And if they did that and balancing was a shit show
lost horizon
Honestly sin has a really wide range of traits you can pick for different situations
stuck knoll
Rather than constructive feed back you'd get a bunch of people saying just design better 
vestal wren
i dont think all powers need to have a higher impact but i think current ones are boring.
lost horizon
Yeah but we're not saying that are we? I think this is a pretty good discussion so far @stuck knoll
I'm just saying I think pointing a finger at boring traits for sin specifically isn't fair
vestal wren
i agree with squawkk we discuss my opinion on it, and its fair to have a conversation with arguments for and against that
lost horizon
When we've honestly got more options than most other specs
lofty viper
should i take shrouded suffocation>2nd loyal to the end?
lost horizon
Talking spec only traits like, DD TTK EB SS NP even SoB can be playable for orgo
stuck knoll
Yeah this is a good discussion I didn't say it wasn't
I just disagree that sins traits are badly designed
lost horizon
Sin has more options than a LOT of other specs
Yeah sorry, just wanted to make sure you weren't directing that at our chat @stuck knoll and I agree with you on sin traits being pretty okay
I think @vestal wren I know where you're coming from but I'd just argue it's a BFA problem not a sin problem
The one trait I actually wish was designed differently is probably our most impactful AoE trait, EB
vestal wren
the trait that was initially flagged as subtlety trait š
lost horizon
I think it makes things weird af, prioritizing builder over spender
Yeah honestly it should at least be for both
Shuriken tornado+EB
I wanna see that in action
vestal wren
haha, i doubt there will be any changes in azerite tho.
kinda curiose where blizz will go with essences
in the last raid
lost horizon
I honestly like essences a lot
Maybe just cause we've been starved of buttons to press and other options
But aside from how terrible some are to farm on alts
Good system imo
vestal wren
essences are a band aid solution to fix class design issues
lost horizon
Wish more were like vision where they tie more into the class themselves
Oh absolutely
Just feels pretty good for a bandaid tbh
vestal wren
thats why i am curiose what they want to do for the next raid. I hope they will do more then just "upgrade" those and add 1-2 new ones
lost horizon
Gimme 2 major slots
vestal wren
that could actually work out
vestal wren
idk, i feel current limitations add some depth to it
using live + flame f.ex. does not sound to engaging even tho you have some downtimes as sin
lost horizon
True
vestal wren
but that might be me, bc. i dont like flame in general
lost horizon
I was thinking CLF + BotE
fleet whale
Idk how i would feel about 2 major essences, i think it would feel kind of clunky tbh
lost horizon
For ST, that'd be wild
fleet whale
thanks to the gcd
lost horizon
I'd be interested if they put it off GCD but on internal 20sec CD like trinkets
And added some more with 30sec+ duration
So you get some font+coral kinda action
vestal wren
ye def. does not sound great
lost horizon
The trinket design in EP is honestly one of the most appealing parts of the patch for me
fleet whale
Font+coral is clunky to me tbh, and the trinkets really aren't that exciting when you think about it
lost horizon
I think coral is fantastic
And font+coral while punishing adds some brainpower we've been needing in the spec imo
vestal wren
i rly disslike the game designer that though "adding cast times to trinkets" is fine
the mechagon trinket is probably worst bc. you have a cast time and a channel
lost horizon
I'm fine with font channel tbh
fleet whale
This isn't the complexity i really want to see though
lost horizon
Cyclo was way cooler when you could use other abilities during cast+channel
fleet whale
trinkets like the hfc class trinket, or Assurance of Consequence from SoO will always be my favorites
lost horizon
@fleet whale I get what you mean, but for current class design it's a nice change
I don't wanna go back to 2 stat sticks
And font+coral interaction aside
vestal wren
i liked ToS trinkets
vestal wren
haha legion where trinkets where allowed to interact with class damage amps
vestal wren
wish essences/trinkets would do too
fleet whale
Dreadlords?
vestal wren
legendary back
lost horizon
Nah I meant for AoE w/glaives
But there was the ST ToS trinket
That dropped the lil ghosty boi
vestal wren
btw. on a diffrent topic, i recently got this dm
lost horizon
I forget it's name, was off kiljaeden
vestal wren
but not sure if thats actually troll or true
lost horizon
Worth testing
lost horizon
Holding TB for it though might feel baaad
Inkpod is another interesting trinket
I'm not a fan of it but I gotta admit it's cool
vestal wren
i mean if its true, it would give some neat numbers
fleet whale
yeah inkpod is kind of cool, but it's kind of limited sometimes
lost horizon
I dislike that you don't have a lot of agency in when it procs
vestal wren
but i think trinkets are all blacklisted so....
lost horizon
Imo make it like coral as an on-use that does more dmg after 30% or something
fleet whale
And about assassin apm, i actually don't think it's too bad right now for how the spec plays, it's currently higher than it was in the end of legion, and does feel smooth to me
lost horizon
But then you wouldn't be able to sync coral and inkpod which sucks
lost horizon
I agree, I just wish you could choose when it happens
fleet whale
Still my biggest issue with assassin is it's talent tree. I like how the spec plays but really, it's tree is not that good imo
vestal wren
i mean, its unavoidable to have some "dead" talents
fleet whale
it's not so much about the dead talents
it's just that the tree as a whole lacks a... coolness factor?
vestal wren
but the ones i mentioned earlier def. seem wired
bleak spoke
Toxic blade should be baseline
Exsang is one of the coolest abilities in the game too bad itās more simple than Tb in many ways
fleet whale
i think blizz should remove exsang and just focus heavily on a poison theme
bleak spoke
Blindside should at least reward you when youāre actually in execute
fleet whale
the spec in general needs more interactions with poisons
sour wasp
blindside heals enemies to death
vestal wren
biggest issue of blindside is that it does not scale with anything at all
bleak spoke
Yeah
fleet whale
blindside should really work with venom rush and DD
bleak spoke
If it had really aggressive agi scaling would be cool
fleet whale
blizz only wants warriors to have execute
bleak spoke
They should have made it a real execute
fleet whale
cause it's "iconic" to them
bleak spoke
Fire mage
Thatās an example of an actually well designed execute
Better than the warrior one in a way
Cuz it actually interacts with the spec
dark crag
Gorak check, cephalo check, time to loot zacool
bleak spoke
Good luck luhmi
fleet whale
DFA wouldn't fit that well with sin cause of the autos your missing
dark crag
2 weeks no raid because classic and quitters
sour wasp
does cephalo> behemoth for you guys?
bleak spoke
Nah behemoth sims better for me
vestal wren
even tho you could argue dfa does not fit rogue at all, i found it quite good on subtlety
bleak spoke
Loyal is too strong
fleet whale
it def fit sub the best
dark crag
I rolled behemoth and all i got are follies
fleet whale
some people say assassin is a slow spec... they should try classic rogue as any spec
bleak spoke
man sin is so fast this tier
vestal wren
i think lucid helped with that aspect
sour wasp
ori
true nexus
holy balls i just got it after like 200 attempts
fleet whale
i wouldn't say it's fast, but it has a nice pace and it's smooth atm
neon tendon
can some1 tell me what sin is? im new sry
bleak spoke
the spec
sour wasp
assassination
bleak spoke
assassination
bleak spoke
š
vestal wren
assassination remains the lower apm spec without essences
sour wasp
it's a sin to play it cuz it's normie af
fleet whale
yeah, but with them im at like 43
bleak spoke
hmm gonna look at one of my raid fights
neon tendon
is sin performing well in mythic content?
fleet whale
yes
fleet whale
yeah, i was basing off my personal sim
raid fights obviously could be higher or lower
bleak spoke
ah i looked at sivara
neon tendon
im currently sim myself at about 41k with 437 ilvl, i dont have any good benthic gear yet
bleak spoke
fleet whale
i don't really feel downtime though
vestal wren
benthic is rly big, you should def. look into getting it
bleak spoke
the only downtime is between TBs
sour wasp
3 min kill, jeez my guilds bad
neon tendon
i guess im just too lazy for farming
bleak spoke
and maybe for 1-2 seconds during tb
dark crag
What is frostmage_noicelance? Wtf
neon tendon
the best are wrist and shoes right?
vestal wren
there is a pin for that, but easiest to get is actually belt
bleak spoke
all me @sour wasp https://i.imgur.com/4JpUUvf.png :^)
vestal wren
wait, is it true?
stuck knoll
Zine mentioned it to me at like almost the start of the tier and I just forgot about it
sour wasp
nah, you don't know how bad my guild is, those ppl pump in your grp @bleak spoke
bleak spoke
@dark crag you never spend icicles on icelance just on gs
yeh their dps is pretty good
we're just kinda spastic with mechanics
vestal wren
would love to see a log if true
bleak spoke
azshara prog soon poggies
fleet whale
just standard ST azerite, unless if you are padding or really need add damage
bleak spoke
@neon tendon just normal stuff
even if you really need add damage and want to pad it's really hard to not sac so much ST it's meaningless
padwise
neon tendon
im currently running 3 muti, personal, and twist the knife i think
vestal wren
@sour wasp radiance is the 2nd boss, not the first one
vestal wren
ohh nvm then
bleak spoke
actual good dps rank! https://i.imgur.com/4dV24R4.png
vestal wren
you can go full st usually on radiance
sour wasp
rl made us get iris for radiance which i guess is pretty fair for prog
we suck balls anyways
bleak spoke
i kinda got rekt on this one, i tried to cheese coral by rupturing the boss during the phase haha
but i just lost too much
probably autos on the adds/main add
big not worth
should just tunnel the big add with a tb
crit is super good on that fight imo
neon tendon
i just feel like im doing everything wrong in "fast" multi target phases
bleak spoke
cuz you can set it up so you have bleeds rolling on boss going into transition and then you have 4 bleeds (on boss and on the big add) and do TB env foks env foks envs
neon tendon
in time time i got all adds with a dot, they die
dark crag
The small adds at radiance are stupid
So unnecessary
Good thing is, the better the gear the less they can pad
sour wasp
i have swirling+ bbi atm for it, easiest envenom spam on add in my life
neon tendon
Can i post logs here?
sour wasp
go ahead
sour wasp
we would never
neon tendon
i rerolled 3 weeks ago and i rly like it
maybe you can see what i can improve
i sometime slack the opener
sour wasp
yeah opener's wrong
sour wasp
yeah, go mut>rup>mut there
neon tendon
then cd + vanish right?
sour wasp
pretty important to get that initial burst in, it's more impact on these short fights
read the guide's opener
you didn't even vanish
sour wasp
you use your essence just before vendetta
neon tendon
ye but it has 3min cd, i was thinking about holding on to it when the 4min vendetta us up again
sour wasp
depends on fight length, if you won't lose a cast, you use it with 3rd vendetta
bleak spoke
If the fight is shorter you do
sour wasp
if not, use it on cd
bleak spoke
Like in a 3:30 fight for example you delay vendetta for clf
But in a 4:30 fight you delay clf for third vendetta
Etc
bleak spoke
But say itās a 6:30 fight youāre going to end with clf and vendetta lining for the last time
So you smack both buttons on cd
Literally same way warlocks would use dark soul vs infernal/darkglare
sour wasp
your 2nd vanish is used for no reason on a random tb
nvm, your 1st vanish, since you didn't vanish on opener
bleak spoke
Always pair vanish with vendetta yeah
Itās a bit awkward to have a joint cd like we do but
It makes up for it by being very powerful
sour wasp
you don't really pool before any tb neither
bleak spoke
I think he should worry about pooling a lil later
Right now the most important thing is dot uptime and not missing casts
If you can do that itās pretty much a 90 off the bat with competitive gear
sour wasp
yeah true, was just looking at plain rotation
neon tendon
english is not my native language, pooling is like regen energy?
bleak spoke
I think in a large way pooling becomes kinda obvious
Yeah basically doing nothing to regen energy
sour wasp
but yeah, uptime should be a tad better, you have a couple of seconds where you don't really do anything
i see a crimson vial
i assume you were about to die or something
inside a tb
bleak spoke
Cuz like you want to put as many envenoms in toxic blade as possible
You want to start the toxic blade cd with high energy
The only way to do it is not to use your buttons and wait kinda
Or get lucky with lucid procs too, the spec is less punishing with lucid dreams than it was last tier
neon tendon
sometimes our healers are slacking a bit, im not so confident right now into using crimson
sour wasp
keep in mind that dot uptime is more important than pooling, so you are prioritizing that first, don't ever let your stuff fall off
sour wasp
and that's pretty much it, you still did ok imo parse wise, saw worse
bleak spoke
The whole spec turns around having bleeds on poisoned targets
Because of your passive
So sure if you played like a boomie or a lock and dropped a side dot for just a second itās almost okay
neon tendon
your points are really helping, im looking to improve those
bleak spoke
But if you drop garrote or rupture youāre going to starve
There will not be enough energy to even put them back on quickly
Itās so important that if you sim using rupture at 3 combo points itās less than a .1% loss
And just looking at the spec for the first time thatās logically a waste
Big thing though is you want to try to refresh bleeds outside of toxic blade window
But if the choice is between having it fall off and doing that you always refresh the bleed
sour wasp
yeah, try to refresh your dots whenever they are about to fall off so you never lose uptime on your passive regen
and refreshing with 2-3 combo points is ok
neon tendon
ok so i want to assure that i use points only for envenom in tb, outside of that refresh dots that are to fall off right?
and before using tb pool a bit of energy
sour wasp
yeah, but if they are about to fall off in tb, refresh them over doing an additional envenom
neon tendon
always use tb on cd?
sour wasp
yeah
bleak spoke
You can usually envenom once or twice outside of Tb if you have good rng or lust
Yeah
sour wasp
and with a bit of experience you will be able to do both right
and be a god like rtb
a god among men
bleak spoke
Basically you get a set amount of possible envenom casts during a kill
neon tendon
haha that will take a long time ^^
bleak spoke
And you want to make it so you reorder them into your Tb windows as much as you can
Hey man there are people in here who are wayyy better than me haha
neon tendon
ok i dont understand one bit, outside of tb i dont use envenom that often?
just mutilate?
bleak spoke
No
Like
You want to not use envenoms if it means that youāll lose a cast inside of Tb
Letās say Tb comes up in 5 seconds and you have like 40 energy and you have bleeds at just refreshed and like 3-4 combo points
You can envenom right now
But then when you Tb you wonāt have cp and youāll have like 80 energy
But if you just sit there and wait
You can Tb at full energy and then envenom after
Youāre not going to lose any env casts
neon tendon
Ah ok i get it
bleak spoke
But instead of having an env outside of Tb and like 2 inside of Tb you get 3 envs inside Tb
sour wasp
also, using tb on 5 cp's is ok
bleak spoke
So you just created dps out of literally doing nothing
sour wasp
if you have 5 cps and tb is just about to be ready you can just wait for it a bit and tb with 5 cp
bleak spoke
Yeah
sour wasp
basically stuffing an envenom inside tb
bleak spoke
Big thing though is you try not to cap energy
sour wasp
this all sounds a bit tough to do at once but chill, it comes with practice really
do it a bit on a dummy, watch your timers, your cds etc.
neon tendon
ill train like rocky on a dummy. But you really helped me alot here
Ty ty ty very much ā¤
true nexus
weird every single sim i try makes me gem haste
sour wasp
because haste is very good, not that weird
sim told me to gem all haste even when haste was 2nd, not 1st
although the difference was like 30 dps between the setups
unique sierra
what should i be shooting for as far as azerite is concerned inraid
atm im running 3 Shroud 3 TTK and 3 OP
fleet whale
DD, at least one NP, TTK, Loyal to the end, and Blightborne infusion from Gorak Tul shoulders
those are the traits you should look for in ST
sour wasp
yeah tell me about it
unique sierra
becasue it outsims my NP
sour wasp
nah it ain't super bad, it's just getting something else+ MA is better
and yeah, ss+ subterfuge is better than some other trash trait+ MA
my alternative to shrouded on my dumpster chest is siphon life, which is terrible
unique sierra
ahhh thats my problem
aight ill sim MA too lol
thats probably the issue is the talent choice
sour wasp
yeah, if you can replace the shrouded with a ttk or a dd, MA will pull ahead
fleet whale
combine that with leeching poison
and some leech gear and gg, self healing by just doing your normal rotation
sour wasp
we're onto something
fleet whale
get up to 25% leech
sour wasp
an absolute god, you must do really good on all those 1 minute encounters
fleet whale
lol
unique sierra
thats teh new sim
lol
but i need to redo the sim with all my gear and that suff selected honestyly
fleet whale
wow you have rank 4 iris
sour wasp
do you normally not raid? your gear is otherwise not bad
spamming m+?
crit will be battling with haste for top stat usually
right now i'm 5.58 crit 5.57 haste
bleak spoke
We double dip so significantly into crit hard to imagine itās ever actually bad yeah
dawn root
2 questions: I finally have 2 SS / 2 EB / 2 TtK at 450 azerite. That all I need for both Fort and Tyrannical weeks? Any swaps a bit more ideal?
Lastly: I have 430 coral/inkpod/font. Coral and ink sim more than font. That the best thing to roll with in M+? Or font better tyrannical?
sour wasp
i wouldnt touch font on m+
not with a poking stick
the point of 2/2/2 is that it is a jack of all trades, meaning it's good regardless of affixes
dawn root
Cool good to know. Thanks
sour wasp
it's more about the dungeon you run when you change that around
granite rampart
and yeah probably stick to coral/inkpod for m+. font takes a really specific pull style to get good use out of, and a tank that allows you to full channel and get restealth, both of which are time inefficient.
versed mica
Is coral really that good for M+?
It feels like it sucks to me
I guess on tyrannical it could be okay
shut garnet
ive been trying it out with inkpod and it feels amazing on bosses
just chunking that instant 5-6-7% in one go on tyr feels really good
buuut i do agree it feels pretty clunky on packs especially if you dont have a clear prio target
it's definitely replaceable depending on what you need
solar rose
https://twitter.com/FinalBossTV/status/1173011067150262275 It's going to be Seliathan, Koji, Myself on tomorrows episode
Twitter
drifting cloud
sick lineup
solar rose
lies
rigid mango
That's your reasoning to watch it? 
deft nymph
one extra reason!
sharp wigeon
anyone know how to move the Frozen Blood bar?
arctic walrus
Let's make our own show tisu 
steel flume
deft nymph
it's good not best
zaq helm is a lil better
at least if you have other people running loyal, maybe even without that
oh nvm NP is the other option
yeah it's way better
near pilot
thinking of dropping enchanting for it, i wont be killing M zaq for a bit just got passed ashvane
rocking the on off M sivara now
deft nymph
gopher it
always nice to have a brez as a stealther with a combat drop
and belt shield/knockback
near pilot
yeah for sure
deft nymph
i'm using engi goggles for sin as i've also not killed m zaq
but even if i stop using goggles for either spec i'd stay engi
love it
near pilot
yeah very nice for key utility
lost horizon
Can also gamble, there's 2 reasonably usable helms from m+ vendor
Slithering Loa generally being the best option (still behind M Zaq helm, but usually a bit better than eng)
swift moss
Where is the usage for font+coral pinned?
reef granite
font+coral stuff is in tc-updates
broken obsidian
Would you use crimson tempest on ST if you took it?
civic palm
no
topaz blaze
i just ran a targert dummy sim and simmed at 26k dps for 5 mins and i just hit a target dummy for 5 mins and i came out at 22.5k dps? Is this good or bad or what do i need to fix?
arctic walrus
A sim plays your class perfectly. It also accounts for full buffs and lust. It's unlikely for you to hit your sim on a dummy
topaz blaze
nah i made sure when i ran the sim that i had no buffs whatsoever on the sim and thats what i did. I am not expecting to ever hit my sim dps but i know i can improve somehow i am just asking how
arctic walrus
You can link your logs if you seek to improve. Saying how much you hit for on a dummy gives 0 info at all
topaz blaze
i havent yet raided on rogue yet so i cant do that haha xD
long anchor
Has anybody looked much at running Deeper in M+ rather than Vigor? Deeper sims very close in ST for me (pulling ahead of vigor with lust on a 3 min fight), but should be much better than vigor in any trash pack
noble sage
what are the best azerite traits for pvp as sin?
dire spoke
You can check out https://www.wowhead.com/assassination-rogue-pvp-guide#recommended-azerite-traits to get a basic idea
bleak spoke
@long anchor you donāt really have the energy to open 3 garrotes out of stealth if you run the sort of haste you do in dungeons
long anchor
Assuming you're opening at 120 energy it seems like you have enough energy to get three garrotes, wait a sec for some energy, fok, and then rupture
bleak spoke
Huh
bleak spoke
No you definitely rupture out of the garrotes
long anchor
fok immediately after the garrotes gets poisons out
strange python
Isnt Haste>Crit for raiding?
bleak spoke
Youāre going to have to pool forever
Just tab between them and auto them
Like I fail to see how itās even that much better on aoe
If it is
Rupture damage doesnāt account for too much of your aoe to begin with
strange python
?
bleak spoke
If you lose a fok early in the rotation because of deeper then youāre behind in dpet
Uh why are you simming 3 mins
@ saphirez
bleak spoke
You can argue that you gain in terms of envenom damage on prio aedora
But like
Yeah do 5
long anchor
Regardless of whether the fok after garrotes would be correct, deeper is simming about 4% higher in 3, 4, and 5 target 1 min sims. Not sure how much sim duration will affect rupture value with deeper, but envenom damage is very relevant
bleak spoke
But like it seems kinda scuffed for pure through puts
Are they 6t1min
Have you checked off bloodlust
long anchor
I don't have BL on for the multi target sims
At 6 targets deeper and vigor are about equal, and I'm not sure why
bleak spoke
I think vigor gains value the more foks you want to put out
long anchor
Why though? On 6 targets you would already be capping energy and would be able to spam fok with out without vigor
bleak spoke
Because you rupture to sustain energy
The pattern is gggr foks with vigor
With 4 bleeds at 11% haste you gain 35.something energy/second
You donāt want to rupture literally everything
long anchor
Yeah that's true. With my gear the DPET of fok with 2x EB is about 93k on 6 targets and only 70k on 5 targets while rupture stays consistent at about 74-77k dpet
Would explain why vigor is about equal at 6 targets
6t
5t
rare pond
!wa
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination WA's for BFA:
https://wago.io/HJUbINlV7 (Mizerok's Group)
https://wago.io/E1EB91OtM (Lokkek's Group)
https://wago.io/SyLUNGD4X (Sovv's Group)
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)
low junco
shut garnet
also while vigor helps you maintain constant FoKing at 5/6+ targets with no prio, deeper has literally 0 benefit
since youre not spending the cp on any finishers really
i mean you're rupturing like 2 targets i guess but it's not that great
and i dont even wanna imagine how clunky deeper would be on bosses with 8% haste 
long anchor
Vigor gives literally 0 benefit on anything more than 2 targets outside of the first few globals where having 170 energy is better than having 120. Iām not trying to say deeper is far better, just that I think itās worth looking at. There are very few instances in M+ where Iām just spamming FoK and not finishing with either rupture or envenom
In those sims I linked with deeper envenom still had a higher DPET than FoK+EB at 6 targets with a 2/2/2 setup
dark crag
Vigor also ups the energy reg a bit
lost horizon
deeper can make your subterfuge garrotes kinda sketchy
it's just clunky af on ST tbh
dark crag
2 mutis back to back are 110 energy
strange python
what would my best essence set up be for m+ be from what i have https://puu.sh/EhqGI/dd15d594ab.png
polar pier
what trinkets do you guys run for m+?
rigid mango
@strange python swap out flames for conflict
@polar pier coral + spyglass is pretty dope
bleak spoke
@long anchor I mean give it a go maybe itās good I just have the suspicion that it might be kinda sim trap
Iād say that if we continue with this thought experiment, youād want to run enough haste so X amount of lucid procs would enable you to fill every global
Iām almost certain you rupture immediately out of garrote and you rupture a target without poison on it to get regen rolling
If you can get the still yet to be determined number of lucid procs in roughly 8-10 globals where youāll be in this energy trough then you wonāt run into the downside
Keep in mind that you need to sustain 35e/second
glacial grotto
Coral in m+ feels so bleh to me
tropic ocean
while deeper might sim higher in a perfect world
it really sucks to play it
you cant open with 3 garrote
as well
bleak spoke
And you need to be able to replace the garrotes with ruptures very soon
Yeah I thought that was the case that you need many haste to open 3 g
You need to have 160 energy in 4 globals
To rupture as that global
With vigor and 11% haste I think your regen is 15.2?
I donāt remember
bleak spoke
Yeah well exactly 170 is a large pool
long anchor
At 8% haste I was able to get three garrotes in the subterfuge window without much of an issue.
bleak spoke
135
tropic ocean
ah yeah 135
bleak spoke
Garrote is 45 right
tropic ocean
+1 rupture
bleak spoke
Can you get the rupture after without waiting
long anchor
Probably depends on poison applications from melees
bleak spoke
That sounds incredibly annoying to play
long anchor
Maybe. Assassination isnāt exactly the most fluid spec anyway. Pooling isnāt āfunā but it is a damage increase
glacial grotto
That's fine going into the next pull if you have 100% energy which you won't ever have
Unless your tank is slowbrains
long anchor
Are you letting ruptures fall off at the end of pulls?
tropic ocean
ofc
glacial grotto
I'm not refreshing them if they're almost dead that's for sure
tropic ocean
only redot if needed for energy/lives full duration
or if tank chains into another pack
long anchor
Okay but generally youāre refreshing for energy and the mob wonāt live for the full duration meaning youāll get a refund and go into the next pull with plenty of energy. This all also assumes youāre not chaining which youāll frequently do and you can just ignore the downtime where you donāt have enough bleeds to maintain energy
glacial grotto
It sounds awful either way
long anchor
It sounds different.
tropic ocean
you dont always chain
and if you chain with sin rogue you need to chain properly
and not when mobs are dying
glacial grotto
If mobs are dying you just hang back and don't get into combat with next pack
Can be a bit awkward at times
tropic ocean
the gain from chaining is that you have already bleeds running for energy etc
so u can just mongo fok
if mobs are dying theres no benefit as it kills your shrouded
and u have no energy/need to reapply ruptures
rigid mango
When I tried the 3 ttk deeper build earlier this season it felt like prime clunk
Sin has relativly slow ramp compared to some of the other meta specs as it is, basing my ramp off of lucid and DP procs felt atrocious
And the amount of bleeds you need out is obv higher
shut garnet
if sin had adrenaline rush then maybe 
rigid mango
In the end I felt like you get punished more often than you gain from doing it
long anchor
I donāt know. Maybe Iāll try looking at some shorter sims without CDs tomorrow to see how duration and vendetta/vanish/bote affect things
shut garnet
have u not tried it out yourself?>
long anchor
Like in an actual key?
long anchor
Not yet. Can probably jump into some random pug tomorrow. Itās too late here
tropic ocean
I guess you'd also need to alternate your playstyle
rigid mango
In a world where most people use 2-3 SS and ironwire silences are a main part of our utility I don't see the reason to lose a cast of such an important spell for the sake of minor gain, regardless of sim diff of the two
tropic ocean
to even benefit from the 5%
rigid mango
Just seems like a whole lot of potential pain for minor gain 
cobalt pelican
both
acoustic cipher
Yeah but overall in a dungeon the damage from crimson tempest compared to poison bomb makes up for the st dps loss?
stuck knoll
Not really
acoustic cipher
Cuz sometimes tank moves the mobs outside my bomb lol
stuck knoll
It does less damage than 1 gcd of fok
So itās just not worth casting
- pbomb was changed to be less in bfa
So getting things moved out is honestly fine
shut garnet
would not playing more than 1 dd in raids be bad
thats what sim is saying is most optimal out of the gear i currently have but i just wonder whether it'd be clunkier than 3dd
rigid mango
If it's your best pieces, no
BiS atm only uses two so
And it's not like DD smoothens your rotation, so I see no reason why it'd be clunkier
shut garnet
to be fair my dmg parses never actually looked like the bot's dmg distribution anyway, with mutilate and dd on top so maybe more ttks for envenom might work better for me
rigid mango
Env should pretty much always be nr1
shut garnet
yeah i always thought so too
but apparently "perfect play" suggests otherwise
whatever that means
rigid mango
Don't think I've ever looked at the damage spread of the sims, logs just show what I'm looking for in a realistical scenario
rigid mango
But blackwater also has the added thing that if someone dies with loyal it spikes
hidden bay
so does zaqul helmet since np doesnt sim higher for me
rigid mango
2 dd 1 np bbi ttk loyal 3 op is the highest simming possible combo on uber optimisation
hidden bay
out of 10 sims one is higher with blackwater chest
rigid mango
Blackwater/cepha are within margin but blackwater realistically wins
Then you're not uber optimised
Also, like I said, realistically blackwater is better too
hidden bay
yes, missing higher font for more crit and 445 socket cloak
steep obsidian
man i kinda hate font
hidden bay
maybe today is the day where i loot 445
shut garnet
tahts weird, the 435 loa sims higher than the 435 zaq head for me
sullen pagoda
this chat is extra pepega today i see
empty ravine
i kinda agree font power trinket is fucking anoying
i always want to use it with my cds
but you need to use it before
and i kinda wish i ddint have to channel it
btw loyal to the end is something that only sims higher if other ppl have it as well?
rigid mango
@shut garnet you have np on shoulders don't you?
shut garnet
yeah
dark crag
font should work with haste
rigid mango
NP falls off after first one
shut garnet
ye but even if i change to shoulders with no NP somehow it still comes on top
idk man
wait nvm
rigid mango
Socketed offhand š
bleak spoke
@hidden bay that 0 NP recommendation ;o
bleak spoke
Shouldnāt it be 4
rigid mango
It should be 4
rigid mango
Why are you simming without 4 and trying to compare it
severe sedge
4 is +95
rigid mango
Yeah, you're simming losing your only NP too
rigid mango
100%
bleak spoke
I think itās worth noting that playing with more dd is probably strong on prog
Where you lose uptime
But if you play dd right you spike harder in windows significantly
On the other hand if a loyal wearing person dies then itās pretty good too
bleak spoke
The buff isnāt long though
rigid mango
15sec is enough to make it worth while
edgy pawn
what did you use to sim orgo? 4 target patchwerk?
rigid mango
Yes
bleak spoke
Obviously if you catch buff during vendetta itās sick
edgy pawn
ty
rigid mango
But either you sim for add damage or you sim for boss damage
Yeah, if you catch it in any window it's great
bleak spoke
Idk with stat procs vs damage procs itās always like
rigid mango
But odds are you clip it in tb window, or just extra crit vers haste is still worth a lot
Regardless of windows
bleak spoke
Catching windows vs creating windows
rigid mango
Idd
I mean, I think especially if you have people intentionally die or smth
It's nutty
We had tank die in 2nd dps window on ashvane
For 2x sin rogue vends
bleak spoke
Man what
rigid mango
2phasing the tank just had soulstone on him