Probably
#assassination
civic palm
Lucid Major leads to a shit ton of unmanageable energy and CLF is a braindead DPS increase once you have Rank 3.
rigid mango
It was only the pick because we couldn't get r3 of others, and r3 lucid
cobalt gyro
it was "good" because you could get it rank 3 pretty early
arctic walrus
Nobody ignores lucid minor, but yes everyone ignores lucid major
rigid mango
It's never been especially good
strange python
2 vs 3 EB big difference in M+?
rigid mango
Not super
cobalt gyro
similar to BoTE
fleet whale
it still sims higher for me compared to BoTE rank 3
rigid mango
I'd stick with 2 for most
civic palm
Above Average difference.
strange python
I have atm 2 EB 2 SS 1 NP
woeful minnow
with what as the minor, worldvein?
civic palm
Lucid Minor almost always.
strange python
I could drop one SS or NP for 3rd EB, do?
arctic walrus
link it
fleet whale
and hero damage still has lucid rank 3 as second best by a fair margin
civic palm
Drop the NP for M+.
woeful minnow
I'm asking what his simmed minor is for lucid to beat bote3, I can only see it happening with a padded worldvein sim
rigid mango
@strange python shouldn't be running NP in m+ đ
arctic walrus
Again, it takes into account the minor
strange python
@rigid mango I like it for the boss dmg
mint prairie
It's like 800 dps more, that's kinda weird..
strange python
But ok will change
rigid mango
The only reason the lucid major bar is that big, is because a majority is the minor
strange python
Without NP vendetta feels like a scam
fleet whale
then why is bote simming lower fo rme
strange python
Mine?
civic palm
If Lucid Major is beating things, low haste could be a reason.
rigid mango
No, varolyn's
arctic walrus
Can you sim a top gear, I just wanna see what could be causing it
civic palm
Other reasons could be gearing and choice of Majors.
fleet whale
but doesn't also make crit and mast more valuable for me
rigid mango
wot
fleet whale
i mean using lucid major
rigid mango
What's your haste at varolyn?
brisk stream
so do i just built a large amount of haste and crit or go with sims?
fleet whale
15% at night
strange python
For m+ itâs still like crit>mast>haste?
full flame
Im trying to reduce buttons to press on my opening. Does macroing in razor coral to my stealth-only mutilate seem like a bad idea to anyone? its also macro'd into vendetta
rigid mango
@strange python crit > mast if ttk's, vers if not > haste
rigid mango
Ya aint wrong
strange python
Oh so for me its crit >Vers then my M+ gear doesnât have the nicest traits atm 2ss 2eb 1np 1 1.4k crit trait dunno name
English name
civic palm
Blightborne?
rigid mango
Swapperoo that NP real fasteroo
rigid mango
Sounds like bbi yah
strange python
Infusion Good for m+ i guess right ?
civic palm
Very
strange python
Gud
rigid mango
It's very hit or miss
You can have it proc and give barely anything, and you can have it proc and bet worth nuts amounts
fleet whale
also idk how to do a top gear sim
woeful minnow
how did you come to the conclusion that lucid sims the best then
fleet whale
i logged out with BoTE
simmed myself
logged in again
switch to lucid major
sim again
woeful minnow
oh geez
woeful minnow
everyone has 445 gorak but me 
crisp steppe
@fleet whale get the simcraft addon
Type /simc ingame and copy paste that on raidbots
winged pumice
gorak tul is bis?
arctic walrus
Have you considered just getting one? @woeful minnow
winged pumice
ive got 2 gorak tul i didnt think it was good for m+
civic palm
o _O
strange python
@civic palm I Better keep NP over scent of blood right
brisk stream
so with simming for progression vs farms these top ranked dps are ignoring their sims and just building haste crit and ignoring everything else, doe that have to do with short kill times?
rigid mango
Gold tasseled is just as good if not better
woeful minnow
gorak just does everything
cobalt pelican
idk what you mean by ignoring their sims
civic palm
@strange python Scent requires a shit ton of long lasting targets to be worth it, it's a choice between two not great traits.
strange python
Alright ty
civic palm
What are your other options?
brisk stream
so if you sim them it will say mastery is their highest simming stat (1 point =6.6 dps), but they will only have 400ish of it and just have tons of haste and crit
cobalt pelican
i mean, do you know a player you've spoken to where this is the case
or are you just simming them from the armory
strange python
@civic palm
brisk stream
simming off the armory, but its relative, thier stats are their stats, or am I missing something here
cobalt pelican
you'd have to link what you were using as a basis for your comment to be honest
but it's likely you're missing something
civic palm
@strange python Change Gorak's to OP as well, the helms are a toss-up IMO.
strange python
Yeah bad helms
civic palm
I imagine Loyal to the End could be good but that requires a rather small number of people to ALL have it, so Unmooring seems weird.
Still good though if you can get your EBs elsewhere.
strange python
Gorals to overwhelming power, why that?
civic palm
Aim for 2 | 2 | 2 as well as you can, you can drop quite a lot of item levels and still gain a lot of DPS.
strange python
Didnât u say haste is bad for m+
strange python
Or at least worse than crit
civic palm
You still want some.
fleet whale
current gear is me with lucid major
civic palm
But not 22% at all times.
strange python
Ok ty
civic palm
also helps with boss damage.
umbral sigil
Everyone hates on lucid major but i like the longer burst window
brisk stream
I guess what I'm asking, is a lot of people are running super high haste followed by crit and ignoring and mastery and verse. So my question is with running DD can it not be simmed properly and do I just run the the haste crit build. Or so I assume the sim is doing everything properly with pooling and such and follow that.
cobalt pelican
overwhelming power is just significantly better than all other inner ring traits
nobody is ignoring mastery, everything is simming properly as far as is known
cobalt pelican
you need very specific gear for mastery to be your best st at
which is why you'd need to link an example case
it can definitely happen but it's not common
strange python
I had mastery be my best stat for ST a few weeks ago
cobalt pelican
it's not like everyone has mastery as their best stat and just doesn't take it because memes
fleet whale
it's best for me but that might be due to the fact I have no loyal to the end
umbral sigil
lol i dont think theres much haste/crit armor from the raid, if any at all
winged pumice
any CD past 3 mins resets once you activate a key right?
can you
oops meant to do it on WoW
strange python
What
umbral sigil
Is anyone using razor coral on azshara?
winged pumice
it dm
brisk stream
@cobalt pelican what i sim vs ""ideal"" https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/hfRCcMxtvC4U8trpy2ceQo
woeful minnow
that's a case of the lucid major right there
speaking of lucid major, same for you varolyn
lucid major beats bote because you're full mastery for some reason
brisk stream
so what are the ideal essence to run, I only have rank 2 stuff right now, only been 120 for 2 weeks lol
drifting cloud
clf/bote major, lucid minor
brisk stream
I'll try that and re sim
woeful minnow
your neck is 59, get 60 asap for crucible 3
bote is useless if you don't have bote3
crucible/lucid
brisk stream
ok cool
cobalt pelican
i'm not sure what the sim you linked me is
it's just a bunch of strictly worse items in a set
like you have 445 socketed ashvane ring and it's being compared to a baseline 430 freehold ring
brisk stream
yea I'll just follow my sim. I see so many of these high high haste crit builds I wasnt sure if that was a specific play style I should be practicing
sand whale
no one is going high haste/crit for the hell of it
it's just the gear we get
if you run sims it'll give you an idea of what's best + essences
placid mulch
Condensed life force generally sims best with haste
brisk stream
gotcha, thanks for all the info guys
brisk stream
yea I'll have rank 3 in a 2 weeks so untill then
placid mulch
Lucid wonât want as much haste, it will sim better with crit and mastery generally
Since most people have access to higher lucid before they have clf rank 3
brisk stream
which is my current case
placid mulch
Yeah so like in my case I regemmed and chanted after I got clf
From crit stack to haste stack as thatâs what simmed best
brisk stream
I've been playing a lock for years so I know nothing about rogues really yet, swapped for m+ ( shocker) and if I'm raiding on it I'm gunna play sin for prog
placid mulch
The nature of essences as a progressive unlock means you just have to keep simming and checking
And donât trust worldvein sims lol
left moth
Hey guys, which essences would you recommend for mythic+ when i dont have "blood of the enemy" đ
woeful minnow
iris/lucid
left moth
thanks đ
thorn tinsel
are there any guides on the DS/Subterfuge builds I'm seeing logs for on Queen's court?
vapid scarab
what do you need a guide for, nothing changes in how you would normally play
edgy ginkgo
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/aHJrSe6Bm5euykyutVuEkr Hey guys, you have some improvement tips? im stuck at 46k while my outlaw is doing 46,5... is this normal? feelsbad đŚ
vapid scarab
get better gear idk what do you expect
fleet whale
get font
plus even if you sim 500 dps more as outlaw for ST, it doesn't necessarily mean you will perform better as outlaw on fights such as Blackwater, the first boss etc
vale quest
what are the best weak auras for M+?
edgy ginkgo
you think its viable to play BotE, even if it sims 350 dps less? i'm feeling more comfortable with it
vale quest
like is there a awesome weak aruas suite for m+
cobalt pelican
depends what you mean by viable really
if you're okay doing less dps, sure, i guess?
vapid scarab
viability is in the eyes of the user my man
cobalt pelican
5min patchwerk sims are a pretty bad environment for clf and it's still the best performer
like even with the+/- of the fight length variable none of them are 3:30 or 6:30 which are ideal timings for it and it's still the best by a decent margin
edgy ginkgo
mhh yeah
cobalt pelican
general stuff from looking at your sim string that's maybe worth checking out is like
i imagine cyclotronic is better than a baseline 430 dice in every situation
worth checking quick+deadly+force instead of just auto running force/quick
gray citrus
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/eTxjgCfxaLHVnqBfFfui69 guess im playin the subterfuge build bois
vapid scarab
you're simming with 0 loyal allies which i highly doubt is the actual case
teal hatch
Okay this is my first hc run on my rogue, i was really undergeared but tried my best, could you guys maybe take a look at it and see what i need to improve ?
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/character/id/30375397#difficulty=4
gray citrus
u may be right but im doin it for like
base line
simply bc im not sure how many of us are running loyal
vapid scarab
there's a really simple way for you to figure that out
"hey, how many of you are using loyal"
civic palm
Can use ERT to see as well.
cobalt pelican
did you read the beginner guide to start with
you're playing master poisoner on all of these fights, the opener is wrong etc
shut garnet
all these ppl with 445 coral + font 
civic palm
!guide
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination Guide: http://www.ravenholdt.net/assassination-guide/
cobalt pelican
i finally got a heroic coral tonight..
now i'm rockin baseline 430 trinkets i made it to the big time
still have a coin for ashvane m tomorrow so maybe i'll get it on mythic and annoy the shit out of our dk i yoinked the heroic one from
teal hatch
Whats wrong with my opening ?
shut garnet
im 4 heroic ashvane kills plus rerolls on 3 of them and i havent got it, but somehow managed to get 3 warforged rings
game rly doesnt want me getting coral
teal hatch
And yes talent wise i had no idea what i was doing i just used the same ones that were told to be best st
cobalt pelican
game doesn't want me getting anything it seems
my 3 shoulder rolls have been 2 sanguines 1 fastiduous
shut garnet
LOL
cobalt pelican
the guide has the talents outlined which you should have (which you don't have)
cobalt pelican
your opener on sivara for example is g r tb mut mut envenom vendetta
which is far from correct
teal hatch
Anything else i should think of?
cobalt pelican
as a quick example since you're playing subterfuge shrouded it'd look something like g r g vend tb
but the full opener is outline din both the sim and the guide
cobalt pelican
are you specced into marked for death?
civic palm
This is due to CP degen.
teal hatch
im not
cobalt pelican
if not why are you even bothering reading that part just scroll down
civic palm
As you cannot enter a boss fight with more than 2CP.
Nothing wrong with being curious.
teal hatch
Is there like a good guide to know which talents i should be using for specific ep bosses ?
civic palm
urBrain
cobalt pelican
like REALLY basic stuff looking at this log for the first boss briefly you frequently have 30+ seconds between tbs, your bleed uptime is 93% for garrote somehow despite it being basically patchwerk, you're using vanish incorrectly etcetcetc
the talents in the guide are still up to date, why not just use those?
the optional rows are for like internal bleeding which you might change based on boss but the rest you really won't except the lvl 30 talent which you won't be changing from subterfuge ever with your gear currently
cobalt pelican
hacker i have never seen this before
shut garnet
is there any way to see the full ability usage breakdown on wclogs
civic palm
weow
drifting cloud
must have been added recently, never seen it before 
teal hatch
@civic palm Last time i checked this discord was for class help so if im asking questions or something in that area there is no need for you to comment bs like that you might aswell be quiet insted.
civic palm
Pardon?
shut garnet
i mean
it isnt bs its pretty true
you are capable of looking at a bunch of talents and realising which ones might be better
teal hatch
teal hatch
Dicks.
civic palm
ÂŻ_(ă)_/ÂŻ
shut garnet
yikes
cobalt pelican
this discord is for class help but the general assumption is that you will read the guide that is pinned at the top of the screen before anything else
then if you have questions about the content people can help with that
woeful minnow
I mean the guide doesn't exactly go into boss specifics
we had one that did that in 8.0
it's a fair question
if you don't know much
cobalt pelican
the reason there isn't one is there really isn't any variety
which means the guide more or less suffices
civic palm
If he made mention that he was extremely new and had little to no knowledge of how things works for Rogues, then I wouldn't make the assumption that he had previous knowledge to form even a poor conclusion from.
woeful minnow
I know, like I said "if you don't know much" it's a fair question
cobalt pelican
maybe it should detail why subterfuge and masterassasin is the only listed optional row
but eh
woeful minnow
the man came in with an absolute garbage opener and the wrong talents
it's fair to assume he's new
"our talents don't really change much on a boss to boss basis" is an easy answer
civic palm
I reply to like a hundred people a day I didn't look at his shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit đ
woeful minnow
anyway I'm just playing devil's advocate for no reason
shut garnet
he asked about talents and he got linked a guide, then he asked pretty much about talents again with a 15s gap in which he couldve just clicked the link
not anyone's fault :p
btw is 3dd 1np 1ttk and 1undulating what you should be aiming for
woeful minnow
undulating is a sim padder
vital raptor
anyways how often should i be refreshing my coral as of now im just poppoing it at the start and using it when my CDs are back up
civic palm
Your name is trash and tanking your DPS by 10k
woeful minnow
bad traits mediocre weapons terribad essences
shut garnet
and no benthic
woeful minnow
that should sum it up
shut garnet
^^
cobalt pelican
you have echoing blades on your gear..
drifting cloud
well youre making a st sim with echoing blades, that never ends well
civic palm
Use Top Gear to find out.
shut garnet
usually 3 double dose though
shut garnet
aim for that mainly, and overwhelming powers
unless youre trying to sim for m+, then use "dungeon slice beta" instead of "patchwerk" before you confirm sim
cobalt pelican
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/8G3xLMjzjV5RW1yVrdcYnd looks somewhat more reasonable, your gear is just kinda bad overal lthough
you need a weapon, benthic, replacement azerite gear
spring mason
do you guys run 2/2/2 for h mech or st build?
cobalt pelican
you can change gear inside the dungeon so do wahtever you want
arctic walrus
I do st cuz it's mostly bosses
cobalt pelican
but ya there's not really any benefit to playing m+ gear unless you're trying to speedrun it for some reason
spring mason
makes sense, thanks
shut pasture
poison bomb this week still?
lone junco
Pb all weeks.
vapid scarab
every week
opaque island
Which rogue spec is easier to pick up for pve?
shut pasture
pb just feels really underwhelming
true nexus
i think for m+ sin is kinda hectic
outlaw a lil easier to manage
but for ST fights sin feels smooth
shut garnet
true but u gotta manage poison uptime bla bla bla
Sometimes fok into envenoms onto prio target
when u can press bladeflurry and one button to 120k dps
wet ruin
is there a way to sim ripple in space
I feel it can be good 2nd minor on fights like queen's court
arctic walrus
It's not so just don't bother
cobalt pelican
bfa.ripple_in_space_proc_chance="0.5" is the modification you'd use but
ya
what he said
basically
wet ruin
so even with proccing it on cooldown its still shit
eternal turtle
Question here,
Lets say you are at 3 combo points, 4 seconds left on rupture, toxic blade off CD.
Do you use toxic blade > rupture or do you mutilate > rupture > mutilate > tb or something?
vapid scarab
you can just rupture at 3
eternal turtle
basically, do you always try to get as much envenoms in during TB or is it better to just use it off cd?
vapid scarab
but you should have seen that coming about 3s beforehand and already been ready to refresh at 5cp before TB was up
vapid scarab
yeah, like i said rupture at 3 is the lesser of evils
but instead of focusing on making the best of a bad situation just avoid that situation in the first place
cobalt pelican
has anyone got the ripple essence id handy
wowhead says 57-59
but that does not seem correct
o it's 15 apparently
nice.
eternal turtle
You have a similiar situation if you have TB off cd and like 10 seconds left on rupture, in the end you will have to decide between using another envenom during the TB window and letting rupture drop, or reapplying rupture
i would always reapply rupture there is that correct?
cobalt pelican
randomly using iris minor 3rd as a comparison
because it's the one i knwo the number for
wet ruin
wait, why is it simming it 15 up, 15 down
cobalt pelican
there's a 30 second cooldown on the buff and it has 15 seconds as it's duration, right?
oh 20 seconds rather sorry
the name given to the sim is one i gave it, but the sim will be 20 seconds up 10 seconds down
cause it's just 100% proc chance on the minor
fervent jasper
MA opener= mut, rup, mut, gar, TB, right?
broken crypt
u need a vanish
wet ruin
the 15 sec up 15 sec down is the name you gave?
cobalt pelican
yeah
woeful minnow
that's missing a vendetta but yes
fervent jasper
Mut rup mut gat vend tb vanish env
cobalt pelican
for example
wet ruin
ok ok I see
broken crypt
open with mut from stealth?
cobalt pelican
is reapplied on this global
so it's up for 20, down for 10, up for 20, down for 10 on cd in the sim
the name is just wrong cause i misunderstood the essence, but the sim is correct
wet ruin
yes, thank you for that
vapid scarab
@eternal turtle you refresh rupture slightly earlier and then tb. recognize that it's going to come up like that beforehand and pool accordingly
wet ruin
that is rank 3 right?
cobalt pelican
yeah
wet ruin
though it doesn't matter
eternal turtle
hmm alright
wet ruin
I would assume the same goes for outlaw as well, kinda easier to proc as outlaw, but I guess the result would be the same
eternal turtle
whats like the highest time remaining on rupture that you would refresh ?
cobalt pelican
i'd guess it's similar but i'd need an outlaw sim string to check
vapid scarab
like 12?
cobalt pelican
neither spec really cares much for mainstat and it's not like the mainstat it gives is absurdly high
vapid scarab
you just need rupture to last through the 9s of TB and however long it would take you afterwards to build cp to refresh it
wet ruin
I would like to see a buff of some sort that would make it usable, at least on bosses with high movement
cobalt pelican
like, 776 mainstat vs the haste iris gives would be a pretty close comparison even if ripple never had the 10sec downtime on it
and that's excluding the pain in the ass it is, and the fact it has downtime
eternal turtle
hmm yeah 11-12s sounds about right to accomplish that
wet ruin
mine is 805 agi, but I guess thats neck lvl
cobalt pelican
yeah they both scale slightly with neck level
the default on this is 65
idk the numbers from the top of my head
just using the tooltips wowhead throwin out
eternal turtle
okay another TB question, say you have 5 CP with TB off cd, do you use it or use envenom mutilate TB to not waste CP?
and if you have 0 CP do you use TB or first 1 mutilate to build some CP
vapid scarab
it's fine to use TB at 5cp if that means you gain an env in TB you wouldn't have got otherwise
if you have 0 then you still use it on cd
wet ruin
also, should worldvein be trusted? like how likely is it thet you would have 4 crystals up all the time and how does that chance scale with the amount of people with it
eternal turtle
cool thanks for helping out đ
tropic ocean
not very likely
cobalt pelican
the uptime in the sim is naturally inflated to hell because it assumes x people stood ontop of each other not moving
it's like 94% uptime in the sim with 4 gamers with it, you'd have to use a comparable log to check what real world uptimes are but like
assume maybe 80%
tropic ocean
we used worldvein in ashvane first progress 12 ppl running it
Resulted in less than 50% uptime
vapid scarab
ashvane is also a terrible fight for it tho
wet ruin
so basically in a fight that is no movement and alot of people stacking it
tropic ocean
y
tropic ocean
the range is not so big sadly
crude chasm
Guys, any have a good weakauras from Ashvane razor?
wet ruin
yes, 12 yards is kinda low
tropic ocean
and mostly you dont have as much melee to even have a good buff uptime when they stack
sick eagle
So my sim goes Mutilate(3CP) Mutilate (5CP) Rapture Garrote(1CP) Vendetta TB(2CP) Vanish Mutilate(5 CP) etc.
If I get lucky with 4CP opener it should be: Mutilate(4CP) Rapture Mutilate(3-4 CP) Garrote(4-5 CP) Vendetta TB(5CP) Envenom?
wet ruin
that is true yes, I am considering everyone as melee đ
tropic ocean
@sick eagle vanish after tb
wet ruin
@sick eagle vendetta -> tb -> vanish -> envenom, but yea
vapid scarab
if you get lucky with 4cp on first envenom then you should Mutilate(4CP) Rupture 1xMutilate Garrote(3-5 CP) Vendetta TB(4-5CP) vanish Envenom mut
depending on what you get from that very last mut you either mut again or env
sick eagle
yea I didn't include vanish mb
interesting that it changes based on CP from first mutilate
I just applied 3 CP rapture all the time
sick eagle
man 1st time I am checking ability timeline from sim craft from raidbots and already found 2 things I was doing wrong
fleet whale
no benthic boots
vapid scarab
you have like full heroic gear, why is that a question
scarlet sequoia
wrong talent
broken crypt
raidbot say to
scarlet sequoia
raidbot say no
cobalt pelican
i shall doubt your statement
scarlet sequoia
change to vigor instead of deeper stratagem
go clf major lucid minor
u will sim 45k minimum
fleet whale
and if you are running lucid as a major don't gem for haste
scarlet sequoia
hell yeah
broken crypt
wtf
fleet whale
and unless if you are me and CLF is only 200 dps higher compared to lucid major đ
broken crypt
im not getting the result from topgear like that
cobalt pelican
maybe you're doing it wrong somehow
broken crypt
sigh
arctic walrus
link top gear
cobalt pelican
you only have flame selected as a minor option..
broken crypt
i am in agreement about the boots
woeful minnow
@fleet whale clf is a solid 900 dps above lucid for you
broken crypt
lol i swear i lit em up hold on
woeful minnow
if you fix your gems lol
cobalt pelican
you don't have quick nav in any of your weapon enchants to check, no radiance shoulders in the sim etc
at least this one has vigor as a sim option
but it's worse than deeper because you hecked everything else up
broken crypt
alright now that one correctly used flames major
cobalt pelican
condensed life force?
broken crypt
lol i dunno
cobalt pelican
ya idk
play around a bit with it
there's still more to be squeezed out of this
but i don't have the iterations/enough time to be bothered
keen bloom
cobalt pelican
not really no
if it's on a piece with other good traits it can be
but it's never smoething that's aimed to exist in a set of gear
fleet whale
yeah but all that haste is awful for M+
cobalt pelican
calling it twisted knife gives me ptsd of the like 2 months my highest simming gear as assassination had 1x that fucking poison knife trait
ugh
bad times
fleet whale
im glad they removed that trait
broken crypt
yea i tried M+ sin it is just boring plus no gouge
i like to stuff those fuckin raptors
fleet whale
i find it more exciting than outlaw tbh
broken crypt
alright thanks for help i knew sometehing was fuckin off
hoping we kill sivara tonight
fleet whale
tbh though i am searching for any reason to not got CLF. Tried for a bit and it felt like a$$cheeks to play with. Would literally prefer almost any other major over it
vapid scarab
in a way yeah but at the same time it's also kinda nice to have an essence you literally don't think about and just fire and forget
fleet whale
i would prefer something that would impact gameplay more. Otherwise it feels more like button bloat
like BoTE is exciting to press
fallow otter
having our 2nd option behind a pvp wall is way more toxic imo
vapid scarab
lucid typically sims higher than bote tho
fleet whale
it sure does for me lol
fallow otter
well depends on your gear, it did for me by like 100dps at the time but tbh i would be choosing bote for the burst when thats what i need for a fight, not the overall sim coz if thats the case i'd be using CLF
woeful minnow
it does because your gems and enchants are booty
vapid scarab
well no
tropic ocean
Lol
vapid scarab
because you can sim and replace every gem and enchant
tropic ocean
lucid is bigger for me than bote too
fleet whale
well im happy to hear that im not alone
vapid scarab
most are like that
it's just a couple fights like queens court or zaquul where you can multidot the energy is kinda pointless
fleet whale
yeah, bote works better in certain fights for sure
tropic ocean
you cant really multidot queens though
fleet whale
but if were talking pure Patchwork Lucid should have the edge
vapid scarab
yes you can?
tropic ocean
in hc yeah
tropic ocean
step with standalone
vapid scarab
which is where you use lucid
tropic ocean
đ¤ˇđżââď¸
fallow otter
anyone done the 3rd essence simiming legwork already, is iris the only real option? just for basic patchwerk
vapid scarab
step when you only have token dh and warr for melee anyway đ¤ˇ
wet ruin
@fallow otter for me iris and flames are 30 dps apart
fleet whale
BoTE minor is also kind of mediocre
tropic ocean
theres not really much opportunity to multidot besides spark
and even then the uptime is so poorly that you wont really overcap
fallow otter
ok thanks @wet ruin
initially i didnt really like court but using rogue things to stay on boss is turning out to be more fun that i thought - hoping we get it down soon or that might wear off very quickly haha
cobalt pelican
using coral on queens court is mildly annoying
at least the way we've been doing it idk
tropic ocean
down sivaz to 30?
cobalt pelican
ya but i don't really get 100% uptime
so i kinda just have to accept that my coral is inefficient
and it makes me feel bad
it's probably fine though
fallow otter
yeh depends how you're raid has to adapt if you are running a bunch of melee
wintry mica
has anyone else had big bois on azshara instantly gain fury and immune the first stun?
fleet whale
it happened to us last night on heroic
wintry mica
alright im glad im not going crazy
we started just having me be the only stun for the 10% prey on the weak damage bonus
and he just kept walking and instantly enraged
fleet whale
only happened once though
wintry mica
weve also been able to chain stun him a few times by having hunter stun 1 sec before kidney wears off
its so inconsistent
fleet whale
mage's dragon breath to stun seems to work
fallow otter
apaprently you can double KS but cant let the stun wear off
havent tried myself, we just use binding
frank geyser
it enrages the moment the first cc on it expires
wintry mica
yea it seems like hes supposed to gain immune when the first stun wears off
but has insane diminishing returns so as long as you overlap you can get an extra 1-2 seconds from another long stong
frank geyser
what I do is wait for binding to trigger and 1 point kidney for damage bonus
wintry mica
how longs binding last?
frank geyser
8 seconds
peak saffron
finally got to pad my dick off as sin on Orgozoa
distant lava
triple echoing blades I guess
white basalt
SS/Subterfuge build worth it for Gorngonzola?
arctic walrus
prolly not
severe bough
I did a janky 3 TTK / 3 EB build
with MA and deeper
and i was doing well on gorgonzola
that said now that i got outlaw gear, outlaw is def the wae
peak saffron
yeah triple echoing
fleet whale
well i didn't get the worst thing in the world from the weekly event... a got an inkpod
peak saffron
4 mythics
crude chasm
any know how much % from crit get the Ashvane trinket per 1 stack?
fleet whale
it depends on ilvl
white basalt
1.5279215677% for 430.
fleet whale
yeah you pair the second use with vendetta regardless of stacks
crude chasm
i put the trinket when i done my opener and i use the stacks with the sec vendetta
thats right?
fleet whale
i would use the trinket asap cause it doesn't take up a gcd
sudden ocean
I apply mine after my first mutilate
daring iron
Is it worth to save all stacks of razor coral for ashvane 30% with ink pod instead of using it on second vendetta?
To try and guarantee the crit for inkpod
sudden ocean
Yes that's the generally agreed upon thing to do
daring iron
Only for ashvane though?
arctic walrus
I mean are you 2 or 3 phasing
fervent jasper
How good is BBI in m+? I got 445 goraks to replace my 435 shoulders so I lost one if my 3 TTKs and can only replace it with BBI
Not sure if worth or not
445 goraks
timber pawn
Would someone be willing to look at my logs and tell me what im missing, running in the 60-75th percentile and looking for ways to improve
arctic walrus
yeye
arctic hornet
Ashvane pull is Font at like 5.4s before > Standard opener with CLF > then apply coral after the 20s down time then just pump? Then repeat when stuff comes off CD?
i feel that second wave of CD's is super awkward
median hedge
CDs usually assigned on ashvane, might not be allowed to vendetta on pull, but thats between you and your raid leader
but in general (other fights) youd want to use font on CD and hold second vendetta for a bit so it overlaps with coral coming back up
more detailed description in #tc-updates
arctic hornet
Kk ty
steep obsidian
I wonder if i could sneak extra vendettas in on ashvane with visions đ¤
sitting on cds feels bad
but so does wiping
fallow otter
for our ashvane kills we have rogues hold CDs for first exposed then use on CD
but you will need to work out with your raid where the dmg is needed
arctic hornet
Yea we're at that point where everyone is just blowing CD's on pull to beat first shield. Hopefully not long đ
arctic hornet
Second bubbles come out with like 2-3% still on shield
fallow otter
whats your raid dps for the first 1min of the fight
drifting cloud
2nd bubbles 
arctic hornet
Ranges from like 38k-27k
keen spruce
can purification protocol kill zoatroids on Orgazoa?
@arctic hornet we killed ashvane with only 2 rogues and 2 DH popping CDs on pull
and we just kited a couple bubbles on the second wave
if everyone is blowing CDs you're probably not gonna meet health checks during burn phases
drifting cloud
oh wait you mean her bubbles
fallow otter
@arctic hornet sorry i meant your whole raids DPS, i am interested
drifting cloud
for some reason I thought you meant cleave bubbles
theres no point trying to beat 2nd bubbles, you just let them go into boss
arctic hornet
Lemme see if I can get it, set your hopes to low
fallow otter
so you can compare, we have 600k dps as a raid group - this could be a number you can aim for with some classes popping CDs on pull
keen spruce
we bounced between 500k during downtime, and a little over 750k during peak times
probably around 600k, maybe a little more in the first minute
fallow otter
our DH pops meta and we have one fire mage using guardian
fallow otter
@round harbor kick for extra deeps
round harbor
ya i forgot to detect
arctic hornet
Tyvm for the Ashvane tips
keen spruce
@arctic hornet i's a mother fuck
it's
but it will come down to managing bubbles and breaking corals
the damage kind of smooths itself out once people get used to the fight
arctic hornet
Yea our pally is doing his bubble nonsense and then i think people just need to not do poo dps
fallow otter
i font ready for exposed after the upsurge about 45s into the fight or something and its just pumping dps after that for me personally
keen spruce
I was in the opener group
severe bough
5/8 M
keen spruce
so just normal rotation
keen spruce
poggies
severe bough
pog
keen spruce
we jsut started him tonight
severe bough
tank and heal game needs to be on point
keen spruce
first pull our DK got pancaked for like 700k
severe bough
it can be a 60 pull boss, or less
keen spruce
severe bough
rofl
fallow otter
i am not ashamed to admit i insta cheat death on pull for the boss twice ahhaha
severe bough
fallow otter
on the upside is im winning HPS meters for quite some time tho after that
severe bough
kek
fallow otter
our WW tanks it and i dont think he taunts on pull but i should hold back a second tho, im just too excitedddddd
lol
cobalt gyro
Poor WW this tier, honestly
Imagine having your only burst CD cut by over 50% because of the boss mechanics
near oar
hello, got a question. how accurate are the sims for benthic gloves? and is it worth to change em with socketed azshara gloves? thank you in advance
fallow otter
how close do they sim? if it is close, not worth changing to benthic
near oar
50-60 dps diffference
tired thistle
So i assume its not worth swapping to BoTE until rank 3 or is rank 2 better then Lucid for raiding?
tired thistle
In PvP not easily
fallow otter
@near oar just stick with azshara gloves
near oar
cheers will try em out @fallow otter
vale quest
i can't stand getting bote makes me wanna uninstanll
tired thistle
yeah the 50k Honour is a little steep
tired thistle
16602/50000
vale quest
and lose almost all 1v1 cause they got 350k hp and im undergeared
tired thistle
sad day
vale quest
so just dying and losing for weeks
tired thistle
i know to sim myself
onyx coyote
I had a question regardding the razor coral when is the optimal time to use it on fights where the boss will die before a 2nd vendetta?
tribal marlin
@onyx coyote probably with your last toxic blade
I used to play with Cyclotro trinket for fights under 2mn and did BotE into Cyclo at 1:30 marker. Worked pretty good. Now I just play Font of power and do 70k dps in 1:30 fights xD
onyx coyote
cool ty
bleak spoke
Man does anyone have tips for using font on queens court
bleak spoke
The spark on the second set lines on the font timer
And I donât Tb that spark people donât seem to swap fast enough lul
arctic walrus
using on cd is pretty optimal
bleak spoke
So I get into this situation where I have deferred, I need to dot and fonts been up for like 5 seconds
arctic walrus
you can dot without getting silenced
arctic walrus
oh yea mb
bleak spoke
Itâs so buggy man
Like Iâll spam strafe and then it wonât drop sometimes
But sometimes Iâll move a step and it drops instantly
But since I try to overcompensate I tick myself real quick
tribal marlin
you can use kick and ShS for the repeat decret
bleak spoke
And at like man what
arctic walrus
Yea just move a good amount
bleak spoke
Not repeat Iâm doing fine on that
arctic walrus
usually 1 gcds worth of movement I found
drifting cloud
yeah I had the same on move one
1 step clears, sometimes legit had to move 10 yards
bleak spoke
Iâll try to move for a full gcd of distance I guess
round harbor
idk if its worth it but i been cloaking the deffered sentences thing so i never* get hit by it
tribal marlin
but during TB it sucks to use global in like FoK or Blind
so I just keep kick/step for that
bleak spoke
I save cloak for if I get the spark
tribal marlin
I get a pretty nice routine on that boss for applying dots on boss boss
I did almost 50k dps on our 1st kill with MA
unfortunately my cloak isn't under my control
bleak spoke
Legit my tank has to scream Iâm running you over to our spriests and locks
tribal marlin
I have to save it for 2 specific moment where I need to soak the charge đŚ
drifting cloud
its probably the one right before no heal
he cloaks and the guy getting charged gets a cd?
I assume
bleak spoke
That one our entire raid soaked together and it does 10k
tribal marlin
no it's the one that coming during Sparks + Form ranks
I used cloak to avoid spark + Form ranks dmg
bleak spoke
Cuz stacking on that one like
tribal marlin
so I can soak the charge from full life with feint
bleak spoke
Man what the charge does 1.5m
tribal marlin
it does 1m only
bleak spoke
On mythic?
tribal marlin
yes
bleak spoke
Wait then our fucking healers are trolling
drifting cloud
yeah lol no way it does 1.5
tribal marlin
basically most charge are soaked by 1 tank and we use Void stone
drifting cloud
if our sp can solo it
bleak spoke
Tbf we only have bark as an external our healing comp is mcfuckingscuffed
Disperse can solo it?
round harbor
we have melee soak most of our charges
bleak spoke
I guess 70% dr on 1m is pretty easy
tribal marlin
but the specif one during Form ranks + Sparks (the very first one and the one on 2nd form ranks) are hard because of this decret
bleak spoke
They let our melee tunnel
Our raid leader whoâs now tanking was a rogue for many years itâs so pleasant
bleak spoke
Iâm gonna float void stone essence as an idea
tribal marlin
but as I said, the very first one is hard because it come at the exact same time of form ranks and sparks dmg
bleak spoke
The first one we seem to not have issues with really
drifting cloud
im pretty sure he means the trinket not the essence
bleak spoke
Our guild didnât do any crucible prog
tribal marlin
so that the guy that have it will most likely be at 30% hp when it happens so I just cloak Form ranks + sparks dmg and soak the charge so that the guy only have tu suffer around 300k dmg insteed of 500k
yes void stone is the trinket from Unaat
drifting cloud
I guess thats the one we use PS for .. didnt really pay that much attention
tribal marlin
yes the very first charge is the most dangerous tbh
drifting cloud
wait you mean the actual first one in the fightr
tribal marlin
I soak 3 charge usually and I just let the guy died on the last one
fuck the last one
drifting cloud
we just have the guy drop it right next to the boss and like 10 people soak it
like 10yards away from ranks
tribal marlin
the very first one, the one during 2nd form ranks but it's not really necessary, and the one just after Suffer decret because we had issu with our DH tank dying on that one
oh well I guess that's a way to do it too
I usually had to give my CoS and Cheat death for thoose stupid soak
but guildie just assume "he's a rogue he just feint and it's ok"
they never knew I had to use Cheat death for it xD
Well we killed the boss that way that's all that matter I guess
drifting cloud
yeah raiding 8h a week and we had suboptimal setups for last 2 weeks and had to reprogress 2 phase ashvane
so we lost alot of prog time on qc, should die this reset
tribal marlin
I hope so
2 phase ashvane is nice
we kill it that way since 3 timer now
If you have good healer, brained people and meet the dps requierement, QC shouldn't be a problem
tribal marlin
Yes from all thoose shitty dps check boss, QC is the hardest I think
apart from Ashvane 1st week ofc
I mean maybe Azshara is also a stupid dps check but I meant, zaqul is less a dps check than QC definitly
We started our first real P4 night today on Zaqul and like 1st Echoes die at the middle of its cast
drifting cloud
what do you have down? 2 rogue 1 demo lock?
tribal marlin
no xD
tinkered shit
I'm just the constant going in each one
we have 1 fire mage each
and a rotation of demo and affli lock
drifting cloud
tribal marlin
yes but it's just 1
I'm fine
I have a special leech gear with 17% leech
I mean 7% + leech poison
drifting cloud
my abberation belt has leech 
tribal marlin
I just cloak off it's stupid ignite and we just burst the add so fast that they don't have time to put me in danger
strong folio
Did you know that jumping resets stacks on deferred sentence, learned it just before our 1st kill 
tribal marlin
I even have too much leech because they want me to return in normal realm faster than I can if I cloak the hysteria dot xD
fallow otter
im doing prog on court atm aswell, us rogues have 2 different ways for the fights (for our raid) when we have too much melee then we stay on pash from the start, feint the burst and feint + cloak the one where we are supposed to be in the bubble - but regular method we are on the same boss as the rest of the raid, i font just after i get deferred, i step to spark then font and continue on from there
just as coral is finishing its time to switch to pash and take gateway
tribal marlin
we too have heavy melee comp but we just mmmh play it even if it's chaos xD
versed mica
When one gets the life force essence to rank 3, does haste start being a better stat again?
drifting cloud
yes
drifting cloud
7
fallow otter
yeh we were on pash for a similar amount of melee
2rogues on pash reset on siv
then we switch when siv is execute for stand alone
then back to pash with the rest of the group
kinda mayhem @ that point tho
and this is around the time we are wiping
tribal marlin
I think we had 1 warri on pash most of the time but we also have 2 shadows so we choose to put the melee guy at 35% asap
fallow otter
we just need some more pulls tbh and consistent raid group (only done prog for 1night really)
drifting cloud
but srsly miki 7 melee
fallow otter
yeh thats our usual strat also
tribal marlin
ye :/
tribal marlin
we have even more because 1 feral is running resto and 1 monk is bench lol
drifting cloud
are you 30 people in guild or just super melee heavy?
tribal marlin
well actually 25 because one guy is about to stop
drifting cloud
pretty meme setup
tribal marlin
wait enh
strong folio
The legendary spec
tribal marlin
enh = melee shaman right
drifting cloud
ye
tribal marlin
well we're only 24 actually because our elem is in long time vacation tho
tribal marlin
Pretty sure if fully geared with benthic and optimal azerite it can do better than most peeps playing just average level
drifting cloud
like its not even bot5 melee specs
tribal marlin
Most if the time the guys playing under-played spec are playing it very well and dive deep into optimisation
drifting cloud
arms, ww, sub, surv are probably worse
tribal marlin
sub is in a desperate state right now :/
tribal marlin
even fully geared with optimal stat it sims 5k behind my sin spec đŚ
Feral are fine tbh, UH still have same issu than ever and frost suffer from downtime more than everyone else
But about Enh shaman and Survival, I think its just that thoose class have range specialisation and there are most of the time more spot for range than for melee
so ranged spec are prefered for thoose class
drifting cloud
yeah exactly, thats why they have underplayed even more
tribal marlin
especially when you want DH for magic debuff and Warrior for battle cry
Rogue because everyone loves rogue
not a lot of melee spot remaining so you need to be exceptionnal to compete or just play ranged
fallow otter
sidenote, stand alone decree is up and you are all spread around the boss and the boss has to move and you have some melee lagging behind - trigger townnnn population me
strange python
Guys a question
How many nothing personal should i use?
At the moment i run with
3x DD
And 2x nothing personal
And 1x evenom
arctic walrus
usually 1 is enough but sim
It's different for everyone depending on your available gear
arctic walrus
I got UT chest from weekly
nimble tartan
vel see u in final fantasy
arctic walrus
gift me it I play with u 
nimble tartan
cmon bro I got gifted it too
arctic walrus
Yeah so pay it forward
nimble tartan
catch me out here playin monk
rigid mango
Way off topic now 
zinc furnace
Guys could you please remind me whats the resource that suggests optimal upgrades to you? I have perfext azerite pieces but hesd and shoulders are 430. Want to understand which 445 has better chance of rolling good
nimble tartan
fuck bro Iâll be full in azshara prog during classic 
arctic walrus
zinc furnace
Wasn't the iptomizer there behind paywall?
rigid mango
That's what everyone uses though
Most of us pay that smol amount or have guilds that do 
zinc furnace
Ok, thz, i was under false impression its a paid service
arctic walrus
tbh I just know you get first in line and more iterations
idk what else
I've had it since legion
"i" 
rigid mango
arctic walrus
From a guy 2 guilds ago
sudden ocean
Yes hello sir it is me owner of this Raidbots account, whats that you say you dont think my name is Nathan, no idea what you mean by that sir
placid flint
With lvl 3 Blood of enemy, what is the ideal way to use the it in an aoe M+ scenario? Because of the 5 sec increased crit damage etc
does it become better sometimes to just spam FoK rather than chuck out bleeds ever?
median hedge
BotE's increased crit damage doesnt last long, i'd imagine you'd want to apply bleeds before using it, then use it, and in the BotE window spam FoK and envenom as much as you can fit with your globals
In lower keys the other dps will probably kill everything before you get to that point tho =p
Bleeds would be important because they give you energy regen so you'll actually be able to use all your globals during the window
rigid mango
@placid flint generally after you've spread bleeds you pop it and pump mongo fok or prio pump with envenoms etc
bleak spoke
G g g r vanish g g g bote fok x9
Garrote will roll throughout the entire time the first target is debuffed and then after than when you rupture foks into rupture youâll never drop under 5 active bleeds so your regen will be okay
I have not played a key high enough this season to actually do that, stuff dies too quickly on 19/20
But you should sustain like ~300-320k dps doing that with current azerite
With azerite from last tier itâs around 250-270
Assuming 3 ss and 2 eb
Iâve never gotten fluid machinations so never had a 3 ss 3 eb setup
For prio you do g g g r on the prio fok to 3+ vendetta Tb bote envenom fok envenom fok envenom fok envenom
It can be worth on a long pull to rupture instead of the last envenom for energy balance because if your next fok after Tb doesnât score 4+ your energy goes into the shitter without lucid procs sometimes even with vendetta up
bronze kelp
would work fine on fortfied fh key at the three start packs đ
peak saffron
strange python
thoughts on why sim is semi low? https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/oZM2cGxjjoouMLnkZbH8Hy
cobalt gyro
semi low
sudden ocean
worldvein 3
nice try 
cobalt gyro
don't have benthic gloves or belt equipped, so
strange python
kind of low compared to others ive seen in here
cobalt gyro
that should add abit
sudden ocean
no mecha set
cobalt gyro
wonder if the mecha bracers are better than the benthic
rigid mango
sudden ocean
rogue doesn't have mecha bracers does it
cobalt gyro
yes it does
sudden ocean
what's the effect
cobalt gyro
sudden ocean
sudden ocean
I don't like imagining my life taking a turn for the worst
rigid mango
Wait does that proc trink cd or?
rigid mango
It seems like nutty piece in next season
cobalt gyro
20k at 415?
bleak spoke
Maybe next season when ilevel goes to 485?
cobalt gyro
whats the ppm of frost bracers
rigid mango
I can see them potentially being good next season