o
#assassination
stuck ravine
river zinc
did something change with the Undulating Tides trait? It wasn't simming good, but ever since tuesday it's like better than everything
civic palm
Nope.
river zinc
Is it simming well for others also?
balmy quest
Did you change other gear, and perhaps get an extra NP or something? I've found it fall behind 1st NP trait but not much else
river zinc
yea I've changed a lot..got a 450 coral trinket..430 Dead-eye...all 430 azerite
cerulean walrus
nimble tartan
what you're gonna do its simple you're gonna garrote one garrote two garrote 3 rupture vendetta exsanguinate yeah
marble elm
40 fucking k
true pelican
undulating sims good but in many fights it has bad uptime
stable plinth
you forgot the best part man....
narrow quiver
when people say "pooling correctly", can someone ELI5?
do I pool just enough to build 4 cp with EP up?
narrow quiver
or more so I get a full 2x mut > envenom combos out?
normal shale
Is it normal for my sim to want me to put Quick Nav in my main and Force Mult in my offhand.
cobalt pelican
all the energy
drifting cloud
it doesnt matter what enchant is on what weapon
normal shale
Oh.
pale cave
Any idea why this macro isn't working with a focus tank? says invalid target: #showtooltip
/cast [target=focus] Tricks of the Trade
drifting cloud
tank or you have neural silencer
upbeat hazel
my sim is telling me to use deadly/quick
is that weird?
as in, no force multiplier
upbeat hazel
what does bad stats mean
drifting cloud
its not than unusual
sour wasp
as in lacking haste/crit
drifting cloud
it really just depends on your gear/essences
cobalt pelican
i'm playing deadly/quick and i'm not lackin NOTHIN
upbeat hazel
yeah my stats are pretty balanced i think
maybe lacking haste after the swap from lucid major to clf
maiden onyx
Hey guys - I've been playing with Lucid main/crucible secondary, and I parse in the 50s. It looks like rogues who are parsing well play blood of the enemy/lucid, but my secondaries aren't optimized for it. Do you think it's worth it to switch over?
cobalt pelican
what makes you think your secondaries aren't optimized for it
have you simmed it and it's not a gain? if so then don't play it
assuming you're not like naked gearwise almost all of the difference between 50th and 95th percentiles is basic gameplay errors and not optimization
sour wasp
i'd add rest of the raid being subpar, subpar roles etc.
that can bring your percentile down
vivid burrow
when using lvl3 of condensed life force, do i use it with cooldowns, or in between?
maiden onyx
Yes, because with lucid dreams haste sims very low on priority. With anything other than lucid dreams, haste priority skyrockets, which would mean significant secondary stat reorganizing for me. This rogue was simming 40k+ at 422 with their set up while I sim at 32k with mine
cobalt pelican
that's a really roundabout answer to the question
have you simmed blood in your current gear?
maiden onyx
yes, and it is a significant DPS loss, but if I reoptimized stats it would be a significant gain. reoptimizing stats would take a lot of work though
I also don't think that simc has blood's rotation incorporated correctly to line up with mfd
cobalt pelican
i find that hard to believe, if blood is a significant loss in your current gear simply moving some stats around on the same rough power budget items will not significantly swing the sim
maiden onyx
and it doesn't seem to stack the crit multiplier from the benthic boots
sour wasp
Wait, mfd?
cobalt pelican
blood usage is correct in the sim, and the crit boots are applied if you have the nazjatar box checked in the options (which is by default)
maiden onyx
I just can't imagine how else I'm losing 10k in damage to a rogue of equal ilvl with the same azerite traits
dapper plover
what trinkets do you have zura?
cobalt pelican
you'd have to link your sim for like actual glaring errors in your gear but if a rogue is simming 42k at 422 and you're 30k chances are they have
benthic, trinkets, azerite
sour wasp
@vivid burrow pins
cobalt pelican
and you have a pile of trash
like if you want someone to explain where the difference is mostly coming from you'd need the two examples to hand
vivid burrow
ty
maiden onyx
trinks are pri stat on use pvp trinket and a 430 socketed phial
sour wasp
Link a top gear sim @maiden onyx
maiden onyx
The rogue seemed to be using the punchcard post nerf - is it still good with the nuke?
sour wasp
Yes it is
maiden onyx
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/5dqZStaW9ExKTS9HhoiDBY there's my 32k sim
vapid scarab
I mean your gear is just overall shit
get more gear, get better gear, you'll sim more
maiden onyx
I'm not sure how that's helpful. My secondaries are itemized pretty well for what I have to work with at my ilvl. Getting better gear defeats the point of my question, which is that rogues in equivalent gear are doing 40k+
sour wasp
The traits aren't the best
maiden onyx
yep, working on the benthic
vapid scarab
rogues in equivalent gear are not doing 40k+
your gear is shit
you don't do 40k+ in shit gear
maiden onyx
I can refer you to warcraft logs if you want to see a rogue doing 40k+ at the same ilvl
vapid scarab
ok, let's see it
maiden onyx
sec, rogue's name is nightr
sour wasp
You have to realise it depends on encounter, rest of the team etc.
Generally you shouldn't compare a log to a sin
Sim
vapid scarab
i'll just go ahead and tell you right now you do not have equivalent gear 
sour wasp
Anyways, for now just look at your ilvl parse to judge your performance
Cause you are undergeared
maiden onyx
My point is that you are useless. All you're doing is spewing "Your gear is shit" with no actual input.
vapid scarab
I;
maiden onyx
when that's literally what I'm asking
vapid scarab
I'm literally telling you why rogues at the same ilvl are doing more dps than you are
which is what you asked
they do not have shit gear, you do
arctic walrus
What question are you even asking.
maiden onyx
"Your gear is shit" does not help me imp[rove
maiden onyx
I'm not seeing where my gear is so bad that I'm simming 10k under rogues with the same ilvl
where is it shit?
what part of it is shit?
sour wasp
I just told you
vapid scarab
your azerite, your lack of benthic, your lack of sockets, your trinkets
arctic walrus
You're refusing to listen
maiden onyx
Yeah I know about the punch card, got it. Working on the rest of benthic, got it.
maiden onyx
Which traits are bad? I thought dual double does was good. My stat weights all sim dead even right now
sour wasp
Your inner circle traits are subpar
Don't just look at double dose and what not
And most of all, don't compare sims to actual logs
maiden onyx
My inner stats simmed weird because my stat weights skew so heavily even from maining memory of lucid dreams. Which is kind of where the root of my original question comes from
cobalt pelican
ilvl is not an important number for raid dps, like being an equal ilvl does not mean equal gear
arctic walrus
that's the best your'e gonna get
maiden onyx
Right, now he outgears me significantly
cobalt pelican
i mean like he outgears you by like an entire tiers worth of gear
maiden onyx
I'm looking at older sims where he didn't
arctic walrus
He did though
vapid scarab
you aren't looking at sims either...
cobalt pelican
he's been simming more than you since before the raid opened
vivid burrow
he sims for 43k
vapid scarab
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/x2VR7opwZPSkXfDf9FdpGd
here, free 200 more dps without even simming gems or enchants
maiden onyx
Yep, I'm trash. Which is the whole reason I'm trying to improve
vapid scarab
your gear....
maiden onyx
fuck there are 120 gems?
sour wasp
Lmao
marble elm
who linkin my armorry
sour wasp
Yeah, was about to say, night is a regular here
dark crag
Get benthic with sockets, get 445 weapons, get raid trinkets, get bis azerite, get nonbenthic place items with socket
arctic walrus
I simmed your gear, the combination I had is the best you can do for now
maiden onyx
Appreciate it Vel
sour wasp
You can ask night himself how he did 40k at 421 and he'll tell you the same thing
He's right here
cobalt pelican
play wow woo
it's fun!
get items!
sometimes they get yellow outlines and they're
cooler!
sour wasp
Amazing
maiden onyx
Think I at least have a starting point to work from. I was just concerned that I was going down the wrong rabbit hole with Lucid Dreams as primary, even though it sims the best for me right now
sour wasp
Stop worrying about that, lucid dreams major is the best untill you have clf
R3 that is
vapid scarab
the rabbit hole is always sim top gear, equip what it tells you
maiden onyx
Yeah, that's tripping me up more than it should too
cobalt pelican
man looking back at my gear from bod i actually had like
worse gear at the end of that tier
than i do now
maiden onyx
I sort of skipped bod
cobalt pelican
i guess part of that was cause i was using setboinus and they would never drop with holes in them
vapid scarab
yeah, that's typically how raid tiers work....you get better gear the next tier than what you had before
cobalt pelican
o really
maiden onyx
I miss class set bonuses. Made gearing so much less confusing
sour wasp
Never played bod but I sim 50k, where's my prize?
arctic walrus
Were we all 422 on heroic Sivara
marble elm
3 mins are a plague
arctic walrus
cobalt pelican
i was 418 i think
white basalt
any generally considered best essence combos for M+? I guess the lazer beam for major...what about minor? got r3 lucid and r3 CLF
vapid scarab
lucid minor always
white basalt
kk
arctic walrus
Oh yikes actually started the tier at 417
cobalt pelican
yeee 422 is pretty high considering cap was 425
but i didn't do any crucible so
i thought maybe you got the gOODies
arctic walrus
left old guild cuz they couldn't kill uunat 
marble elm
i had a mythic helm and heroic trinket
and then just bod/cos gear
i was 419 at the start of the tier
crystal barn
what do you guys think of razor coral in m+ ?
seems like you wouldnt get many stacks
is it good?
tribal marlin
I noticed a wierd bug recently, I had a 10+ stack of coral that proced on death, then I used the coral on a 2nd mob that died quickly and the tooltip of the buff only show like I had 2 stack (220 crit)
might be a tooltip issue, need to check later
cobalt pelican
i wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't just the tooltip
maghar is just like dirty orcs if you wanna be an orc go for it
tribal marlin
I'll check more carefully tomorrow but it's a bit tricky to test since I had to check the character chart to compare the value
need also to have mobs where I can actually get more than 1 stacks that die quickly each other and I can't do that in key
cobalt pelican
if it takes any length of time to test you can always just make a weakaura displaying critvalue and the buff next to it
and you can probably do it solo in a normal dungeon at this ilvl can't you
no idea how much mob health even is in those anymore
tribal marlin
yes should be ok in normal dunj but I can't do it right now, not at home
cobalt pelican
i'd do it but i'm lazy and only have an lfr coral so i'm busy sulking
lusty narwhal
@marble elm considering the same thing... currently undead. Would you go male or fem
final gazelle
Anyone have any thoughts on my parse compared to this other rogue who did considerably better than me on Heroic Queen:
the main thing that stands out to me is they got off 26 more envenoms than I did
strange python
they did a lot more dmg with Flame essence than your blood of the enemy did
also used Red Punch Card (Cyclotronic Blast), it hits like a truck and is a good option for when you HAVE to be at range to keep up DPS
also, Ashvane Trinket.
balmy quest
Also potion of unbridled fury vs focused resolve
strange python
mmm yeah for focused is best for ST bosses.
balmy quest
And you're using Subterfuge without any Shrouded traits?
I can't imagine that performs better than MA
final gazelle
ok, i will look into those
strange python
They also FOK'd a LOT more, probably AOE to get CP for those extra Envenoms
final gazelle
i see
cobalt pelican
fok suck butt
balmy quest
They have all the benthic gear you only have boots
cobalt pelican
it's pretty hard to direct compare logs like these when you're like not on the same gear level or in the same group
final gazelle
understood
strange python
@strange python yes
final gazelle
i am just trying to fix my dps in general
balmy quest
High ilvl main hand is legit too
strange python
Thank you
final gazelle
and i just found that person as a "simliar parse" or whatever
strange python
@jolly sun for multitarget.
cobalt pelican
looking at logs is a good idea, but directly comparing doesn't really lead to very like
final gazelle
if there is anything else you see i am doing wrong, by all means, tell me
i am really struggling to get better
balmy quest
Your trinkets need replacing as well tbh
Get pocket-sized computational device and if you're lucky coral or font from raids
cobalt pelican
besides gear stuff which is the usual weapons/trinkets/benthic/holes
cobalt pelican
you're already going to look into ma but assuming you're playing what your'e playing like
your opener is all weird like someone has told you/you've memorized it for ss
balmy quest
On your Gorak Tul's if you already have Nothing Personal you should run Blightborne
cobalt pelican
cause you garrote both starting mobs for 1cp each then 2cp rupture one
you have a lot of downtime it looks like you're trying to maintain bleeds on both of them when they're like
seperated
final gazelle
hmm, i didn't mean to do that weird opening, i must have just screwed that up
yes, i did try to do that a little bit (maintain bleeds on both)
cobalt pelican
keeping dots up is good in theory but like
if you're literally having to walk between the mobs 20 yards
it's not worth it
you have a lot of tbs where you like
envenom 1x then just wander off and reapply all your bleeds
strange python
Do you have the giant fuckoff death lazer essence at level 3? It's GREAT on Azshara add packs.
balmy quest
Only keep bleeds on both if you can shadowstep to the other one for almost no downtime. Downtime is usually a dps loss (melee swings add up)
cobalt pelican
i guess you didn't plan very well and the hulk spawned
and you just decided to leave
you generally have really low uptime like
2:08 tb -> 2:39 tb and inbetween that time you're like
not actually doing anything
lots of fokking going on at what i'll assume is the azshara/mrymidon/serena part
which is like super unworth
cobalt pelican
you frequently have like 30-35+ seconds between tbs usually caused by like
final gazelle
where i feel like i am avoiding dying or executing mehcnaics for long stretches
cobalt pelican
you just need to get comfortable doing the necessary to not die/kill the raid as fast as possible
i don't even know what some of these breaks are
like you must be getting charged spear and being super cautious with it
or something?
strange python
maybe assigned to pads?
I know I occasionally get 'all rogues to bla pad away from everything' and cry
cobalt pelican
i guess it could be, i've never done heroic azshara where melee have to crossmap though
you have a couple of uses of blood that are outside of vendetta
for example at 353 seconds you use it then at 378 use vendetta
all this stuff adds up over the course of the fight
final gazelle
i had to do pads some
cobalt pelican
get some better gear, focus on pressing your tb on cooldown and having as little downtime as you can, keep your bleeds up and try to be efficient with your movement
respec to ma and learn the appropriate opener and how to use your vendetta window afterwards
strange python
I still have a 395 dagger. So you've got to be better off than me.
final gazelle
at least that was my thinking
cobalt pelican
it's a 1.5min cd that has been shown to be best if you pair it with vanish+tb inside vendetta
strange python
18 M+'s this week, no goddamn dagger.
cobalt pelican
it means you're 'wasting' 30 seconds of the cooldown
but it's better that way
there are fringe cases where if you can get 2casts/an aoe cast it's probably better to use outside vendetta
but since there's a lot of basics to learn here
stick to using it the most rigid way
and then move outwards from that when you're comfortable with it
strange python
You might be better off using something that's more fire and forget than stuff that needs timings/CD overlaps
ymmv.
cobalt pelican
this spec is super simple to play at a baseline level if you go ma
you learn a rigid opener that doesn't change
and every 2 minutes you
vendetta, get to 4/5cp somehow, tb blood vanish env mut env
or blood tb it doesn't really matter besides the opening one
that's literally all you have to remember, besides that it's apply your bleeds and keep them up and press tb on cd
smoky bluff
!essence
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination Essences overview: https://bit.ly/2XaZOVd
cobalt pelican
and you'll get reasonable results (given reasonable gear)
the rest is all minor increases
sudden ocean
If I'm doing the MA muti>rupture>muti>garotte opener and I dont get 4 cp on my first muti, is it best to garotte after the first muti then rupture>muti or just go forward with the 3cp rupture
sudden ocean
ah so muti muti rupture garotte instead
cobalt pelican
yes
cobalt pelican
the main goal is just to get the 2 muts inside ma which is where the gain comes from over gar mut rupt
if a couple combo points is the price you pay then so be it
high ruin
what causes dd to proc more?
high ruin
hmm this other rogue is consistently doing almost double dd damage than me
vapid scarab
then he has higher mastery, more DD traits, and/or is pooling more before casting envenom
high ruin
hmm
I normally pool to 120 before casting envenom unless i'm in a vendetta or tb window
I don't think our mastery is that different
and I have one more DD trait than him :/
high ruin
i have almost no cap
vapid scarab
you would have to have an unobtainable amount of haste to be getting 50 energy per second
that's the only way he would be capping
high ruin
I think maybe it's jusit because he's popping vd under lust and i'm popping it at pull
I dunno. I'll figure it out
balmy quest
does he lose a cast of it because of that? if not you should use it during lust
high ruin
Even on pulls where our cooldowns line up he's still doing more. but it could just be RNG
vapid scarab
guess how many sockets
high ruin
0
arctic walrus
If you have a log as an example, would be helpful
high ruin
sure
The other issue i'm having on is my second damage spike is signifigantly less than my first
So i'm trying to look into that too
Im new to rogue 8.2
vapid scarab
I mean
that's how CDs work
your first use is going to spike your dps a lot higher than a mid fight use because the fight has been going on for a much shorter time
high ruin
I know that, but other rogues have higher second spikes than me
i'm doing something wrong for sure
balmy quest
Are those the two rogues you're comparing? Because one has a tonne more mastery than the other
balmy quest
and an extra DD trait
magic fossil
condensed life force before or after vendetta?
simple zealot
Is mastery good though? I thought stat priority was haste->crit->mastery
rigid mango
There's no stat prio
fallow otter
depends on your traits/essences
rigid mango
Everything's good
simple zealot
Every guide I have seen has said haste is best when choosing enchants. Yet this guy has much higher dps by maximizing mastery.
civic palm
and has 100 more crit, 200 more haste, etc.
balmy quest
Everyone's stats are different, some people's best stat is crit, others haste, others mastery
He was asking why his Double Dose was doing more damage
civic palm
That is a comical amount of mastery though.
balmy quest
Which can be attributed to more mastery and an extra double dose trait
civic palm
But Mastery also has DR like a son-of-a-bitch so he'd probably still be better off getting rid of it for some VERS.
But that's w/e.
balmy quest
maybe but the question wasn't what is his best stat
that's a simple sim yo self answer
civic palm
Just remember that while people wanna bitch and moan that the pruning has been bad for the game, traits and essences have made the nuance a lot more annoying.
fallow otter
this patch is awesome for classes and specs IMO, i legit enjoy having 3 more binds to press - it was annoying losing buttons to press in BFA with no artifact ability etc
balmy quest
I hate the double on-use trinkets but everything else is great
fallow otter
each to their own, i like it
glossy kestrel
i wish we still had NL crucible tbh
fallow otter
i also love that different playstyles can work also, blood/lucid, clf/lucid, lucid/iris all different but all compete
then you throw in vision for situational fights
all great improvements from 8.2
anyway, this is kinda a general convo
fleet whale
I think the essence system has turned out a lot better than what most people thought in terms on how many builds you can make and what playstyle you like. I still don't know how to feel about CLF being so strong. Having a pet doesn't feel rogue-like even if it lasts for a short time
civic palm
Sure, many people raid with all kinds of stats.
Just have to use Lucid Major more than likely.
fleet whale
in legion i raided with like 3% haste
willow wasp
yeah im at 10% right now but i just hate grinding for 2 sets
keys and raid set
im thinking major lucid and bote minor
fleet whale
tbh even with lucid minor 10% haste might feel really shit but feelscraft doesn't equal damage
willow wasp
yeah and if ur crit is high, hopefully itll make up for it
ideally id like bote major lucid minor
willow wasp
well im just hard swapping to rogue rn
only have bote, iris, lucid, and crucible
only 10% haste
fleet whale
bote minor isn't that great, crucible and iris minors are better
if your going lucid major
willow wasp
bet ty
civic palm
If you drop Lucid Major you will need more than 10% haste.
rigid mango
In my anecdotal values, I went frim about 11% to 17-18% swapping from lucid to clf
civic palm
Yep.
somber hill
Prepot for sin?
mighty elm
unbridled
arctic walrus
You on Azshara yet Rise
vocal kelp
1 ss, 2 eb, 3 ttk seems really good rn @steel wagon
steel wagon
for tyranical week right.
but i would imagine i would prob want more of the aoe ones for fort weeks
vocal kelp
Eb gains value in tyrannical weeks
Bcus bigger trash pulls
2/2/2 is Good for both fort and tyrannical
steel wagon
yeah i was using 2/2/2 right now
assassin is kinda lol in M+ but im having fun with it. at least doing 40k+ overall in some keys
barage of many bombs from the engineering helm is pretty good too i think?
rigid mango
Not worth over any eb/ss/ttk though.
vocal kelp
^
mighty elm
@arctic walrus on zequl 😦
steel wagon
and TTK would obv be better than DD since u are using envenom on trash mobs and not mutilate
bronze kelp
Lol assa kinda low in m+?
steel wagon
im out dpsing like 95% of people but some DH's i cant touch
bronze kelp
Tell that to seli 😂
steel wagon
but im only doing 14s and 15s so i havent seen actual good people yet
and im sure any good outlaw could make me eat my ass
fleet whale
depends on what your standard of good is
bronze kelp
M+ is not about biggest overall dps
bronze kelp
XD
As zine already said 2/2/2 is a well balanced build. And If you have enough azerite pieces to switch gear you can more and more switch for specific dungeons. Heavy trash - 3 eb
Heavy prio dmg needed - 3 ttk
Many small packs to cleave - 3 ss
steel wagon
so interesting one of the top assassin 2.2k rogues is using purification protical major
rigid mango
For every run?
steel wagon
might have just been for one key idk the raider.io isnt loading all assassin rogue runs for some reason
rigid mango
It's very inconsistant as a website at showing what people ran in X keys
Seliathan streams, I'd recommend looking there for sin m+ content
steady owl
Should I use clf at rank 2 as major or lucid dreams 3 in raids? I dont have bote yet
winter moss
solemn mason
awa-
cobalt wedge
is it possible to play with 1 dagger and 1 fist or 2 daggers are required?
cobalt wedge
rip ty
simple zealot
Do sim weights depend primarily on azerite traits / talents or on the amount you have of each secondary attribute, ie diminishing returns.
winter moss
stat weights depend on almost everything
and change as soon you change a bit of gear
steel wagon
so to go back to the M+ discussion, Seliathan is using 3x EB 3x TTK and crimson tempest o.o
im scared now
last week* and this week 3x SS 3x ttk
winter moss
pad build
traits depend on affixes and comp and afaik he was just trying something
check is vods for detailed info
steel wagon
wonderful ty.
steady owl
With ashvanes razor coral should I use it with vendetta or when I have a certain number of stacks?
winter moss
steady owl
What if the pins are wrong and someone else has a better answer?
mighty elm
solid nova
Ecksdee
steady owl
😄
nimble tartan
check the pins!!!
strange python
!essences
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination Essences overview: https://bit.ly/2XaZOVd
spare dust
Do you use the first the first coral crit conversion with 2nd vendetta or asap after pull?
Or on 2nd tb window
glass matrix
Well u wanna build it up a bit so don't use it asap I'd probably use on the 2nd vendetta that way u have 2 minutes of ramp up to stack the coral
spare dust
Actually should just check some logs when im back home i guess
placid dawn
just look at the pins
tardy ether
you use font 5sec pre pull, then coral as soon as its rdy and then font when its rdy again (around 15s before 2nd vendetta), that way you can convert coral crit with the last 10s of vendetta
oh awkard 😄
well then just pop coral on pull and convert it on the next vendetta
cyclo when you're energy starved
placid dawn
also, you do font 14s before vendetta and pop coal 6 seconds in i think
rigid mango
Like the pin says, yeah
mighty elm
font 5 sec before pull 
solid nova
Pre-pot
dense cedar
Twist is simming better on a piece over SS, should I not use 1 SS and just the Twist? Wondering what that feels like to play
warm sable
what us "font" for
nocturne tinsel
Without the SS you just play master assassin which sims better depending on your other traits
It’s a different play style from SS but it’s not really hard to learn
warm sable
prob trinket from Azshara
small thicket
I prefer the SS playstyle, kinda sad that dd ma is the superior with the right stuff
tardy ether
SS with exang was nice in uldir
small thicket
Yea
Remember exang in bfa pre patch when it first came out like 400% faster bleeds lol
pliant apex
sudden ocean
lucid but sim it
Bloodmallet or similar base sim sites can give you an idea, but performing your own sims is necessary to find the best for your character
solid nova
Raidbots
simple meteor
whats rupture and garrote pandemic timers?
i remember garrote is 5.4 sec what about rupture
scarlet hinge
Got inkpod last night, have coral already, should I be using Coral on pull then reuse just before 30 %, also should I hold CD's for that window ?
sudden ocean
@simple meteor check ravenholdt
winter moss
you wanna convert to crit shortly before you hit 30% with inkpod to make sure it crits
rigid mango
And if you wont lose a cast of vend/tb, delaying them to align with that, would also be a gain
placid dawn
so, with inkpod you save the crit conversion exclusively for it?
rigid mango
I believe that's how it's optimally used, yeah
scarlet hinge
Good to know, thanks
upbeat hazel
how far ahead of assa is outlaw in m+?
havent really compared to a proper outlaw main
royal lantern
with the way dungeons work right now, it really hurts sin/sub that only outlaw has gouge
+deffensive vanish/doesnt hurt too not get a re-stealth for each pack etc.....
dapper plover
sin is dank for grouping mobs
dapper plover
when will you ever use it
sudden ocean
every single time I can tbh
narrow quiver
meh, I think that depends on your comp. unless you're talking about using it as a pure combat CC
winter moss
There is no way you can't admit that Outlaw is ahead of Assassination in terms of m+....
narrow quiver
outlaw > sin in M+ for sure
narrow quiver
gouge isn't the biggest reason though
winter moss
Not only in damage. Utility
steady owl
But to get daggers you need to play sin anyway...
dapper plover
gouge is meh utility
rigid mango
?
dapper plover
press blind bro
rigid mango
Don't troll in spec channels pls
rigid mango
Outlaw's can single handidly solo mobs that need a cc rotation
winter moss
- the simplicity of the pec itself opens it up to almost everyone
rigid mango
Just bec gouge is insane
dapper plover
so one 4 sec is that good
sudden ocean
I think you're misunderstanding how gouge is used
winter moss
what the
sudden ocean
Is this a meme?
rigid mango
I think you're trolling
narrow quiver
must be troll now
winter moss
confirmed
rigid mango
And it's not appreciated (:
dapper plover
so gouge better then garrote
rigid mango
Much.
sudden ocean
I think it's time to stop replying
rigid mango
You just don't understand how it's usef
Ans keep in ignoring how we've explained it
Several times
dapper plover
15% reduced damage from mobs < 4 sec incap?
quasi pewter
ok stop
narrow quiver
so, energy pooling... (changes subject) try to get 3x envenom in the TB window?
quasi pewter
its a troll
rigid mango
dapper plover
im actually confused
winter moss
@narrow quiver Yes
winter moss
try to pool to somewhat 100~120 energy before actually tb
rigid mango
For sure.
solid nova
Take the trolling out of the spec channels
narrow quiver
@winter moss ty 😃
winter moss
env mut mut env mut mut env
rigid mango
But gouge is next level cc
solid nova
Actually ridiculous
rigid mango
You can solo shit that'd normally need attention from others
With solely your abilities
dapper plover
oh ok i didnt know, thanks for tip
upbeat geode
assa loses dps if it uses vanish for utility while outlaw barely loses anything from a vanishing
wet ruin
how can you compare gouge to a 2 min vanish garrote cc???
narrow quiver
outlaw rotation is also lulz
rigid mango
Let's just
solid nova
You can't, dont entertain it ty
rigid mango
Stop the convo here, not going anywhere
dapper plover
ok one more question
rigid mango
Sure.
dapper plover
how much haste do i need to get 4 garrotes into sub window?
sudden ocean
not much
solid nova
!warn @dapper plover Stop trolling the spec channels
sudden ocean
I was doing it on bfa launch
dapper plover
what am i doing
sudden ocean
Probs depends on ping more than haste tbh
rigid mango
It's much more ping/ms/serv related
It's not generally possible
And very inconsistant
upbeat geode
during testing i got a 20% succes rate
sullen pagoda
the daily discussion "which spec is better for m+" LULW
dapper plover
@solid nova where do i ask questions
solid nova
@dapper plover Bad troll or just ignorant 
dapper plover
im new to rogue so im not used to all the utility and stuff
solid nova
You've been here since 2018, Not sure how you define new but I think a year thins that our a fair bit.
ornate gazelle
After Vendetta is finished but Lurker's Insidious Gift is still ticking for ten additional seconds, should I still be fitting in as many Envenoms or begin pooling and managing Elaborate Planning?
sudden ocean
How does playing mage make you feel like you need to argue with experienced rogue players?
dapper plover
i dont argue
oak flower
@rigid mango is CLF any good
dapper plover
just ask to understand
oak flower
ty
sudden ocean
rev up your haste enchants and gems when you move to CLF
wet ruin
@ornate gazelle why do you think it benefits your envenoms
wet ruin
what, how does mastery increase the dmg of envenom
scarlet sequoia
8
rigid mango
A lot of people come from bote + lucid too
ornate gazelle
Is Envenom affected by mastery?
rigid mango
Yes
upbeat geode
mastery increases the dmg of our posions right? not our poision dmg?
wet ruin
exactly, envenom is nor poison nor bleed
real bay
envenom = nature damage aka poison
solid nova
^
wet ruin
what, neven knew that
ornate gazelle
So mastery directly increases envenom damage to clarify
solid nova
Yes
ornate gazelle
So spam those envenoms the entire duration of lurker's gift buff, even after vendetta
?
rigid mango
You uhh, always want to env when you can?
wet ruin
now it makes sense, I was wondering why mastery is so high up the list when deadly poison or bleeds doesn't do that much dmg
strange python
Deadly poison does a fair amount of dmg with dot and instant
ornate gazelle
i was just curious if it was worth continuing to envenom without managing EP yet while lurker's still ticks, like during vendetta
wet ruin
well it does dmg, but its not in your top dmging spells, or at least not in mine
ornate gazelle
the 23% additional mastery for envenoms doesn't trump the EP energy management for those 10 seconds?
and not just envenoms, but DD damage, and all other poisons and bleeds
wet ruin
why doesn't it say just nature dmg, but poison dmg
solid nova
Blizzard tooltips 
ornate gazelle
speaking of which, is there an addon where you can hover over a trinket or other item tooltips and see like a list of abilities/damage it buffs?
winter moss
uhh. not that i know of.. but wowiki has a extended article about dmg schools in wow
also iirc on wowhead the dmg schools are also split up
summer valve
check wowhead's spelldata if you are curious about those
for example rather than just looking at tooltip ingame you can check
and it lists envenom under affected spells
upbeat geode
it doesnt even say posion dmg, it says "your poisons" i thought that just meant deadly and wound
winter moss
well that's on blizzard
wet ruin
yes, now when I look at the first talent first row, it says weapon poisons, so apprently they think weapon poisons and poisons are different
solid nova
Tooltips have historically been bad tbh
They used to have loads of information on them
They got gutted to what we have now
winter moss
from legion to bfa most of the tooltips got cut in half
blissful moss
!wa
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination WA's for BFA:
https://wago.io/HJUbINlV7 (Mizerok's Group)
https://wago.io/E1EB91OtM (Lokkek's Group)
https://wago.io/SyLUNGD4X (Sovv's Group)
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)
dapper plover
does sub garrote snapshot other stats as well or just the sub buff and then other stats are dynamic
rigid mango
Sub snapshots, sorta
And so does ns, sorta
The stats aren't snapshotted, but added damage is
winter moss
true
dapper plover
ok thanks
sinful badger
Guys
Why are all top parses for rogues using MA mutiliating 4 times in a row constantly before envenoming
sudden ocean
probably 3 DD
rigid mango
It's muti crits, not 4 mutis
sinful badger
Look at any logs for top 10 sin rogue on sivara
Idk if it’s Crits. I’m looking at casts
fierce comet
well when it crits it shows up as another
sinful badger
That’s kind of stupid hahah
fierce comet
but they probably arent mutilating 4 times in a row that makes no sense
actually i know they arent
fierce comet
im not sure thats what he meant
halcyon badger
hey guys, just a quick fact check, how do you use the Ashaven's Razor Coral? Do you apply on pull then consume asap or do you apply on pull and consume on 2nd vendetta?
halcyon badger
And then line with each vendetta ?
sinful badger
How do you get it i nthat view. Mine just is a list
solid nova
Well ive looked at the top 5 and dont see any x4 muts
So i can only assume thats where the confusion is
Pick player name > timeline > casts
fierce comet
is that the opener you use or was that someone else
sinful badger
Yeah on the list it just says
rigid mango
@halcyon badger should be in pins
halcyon badger
@rigid mango in pins it says that it should be lined with vendetta, but that's for 2nd and 3rd etc, it didn't say anything about pull
rigid mango
I think it's assuming you can do the obvious
halcyon badger
That's why I am asking, cuz it's not obvious for me. When I use it on pull do I consume stacks asap and then use again and wait for vendetta or do I just use on pull and wait until 2nd vendetta to consume ?
rose violet
Wait
sour wasp
@halcyon badger add debuff on pull, consume stacks 2nd vendetta, wait 20 seconds, re add debuff, consume 3rd vendetta
do it until boss is kill 
halcyon badger
I think I shouldn't use it before 2nd vendetta, but I am not informed enough to have an adequate opinion, and I know there are people here who already know the answer, isn't that the reason for this discord?
@sour wasp thank you very much, I appreciate you
sour wasp
my deepest pleasure
rose violet
You can always sim yourself and check at which point the sim used a specific trinket
For future trinkets that might not be too obvious in their usage
halcyon badger
@rose violet I am kinda noob with sims, I learned how to use raidbots to check which is the best gear in my bags but that's about it. That's why whenever I have a more elaborate question, I just ask here cuz there are a ton of ppl who can tell me right away what I may not even be able to find out myself
I've always been prediminantly PvP player and all that min-maxing feels distant for me
wet ruin
watching how the sims use a trinket might not be the best option
rigid mango
Why would it not be
wet ruin
cuz there was a time when logs didn't pre pull with font
sims*
there was a time when sims didn't use vanish
sour wasp
but it does now
rigid mango
Yeah, stuff gets fixed
marble elm
That kind of stuff should be obvious
wet ruin
yes, I know but it is better to ask
rigid mango
It's better to look at the log
and if it looks questionable
question it
99% of the time, it's plain logic
sour wasp
the only reason you might not follow the sims is when the fight is a bit different than a patchwerk
rigid mango
All you need to do is apply some brain and poof, you've realised it yourself.
sour wasp
e.g burst windows movement etc.
wet ruin
zine, you are one who believes refreshing bleeds early is better so that you don't have to do it in tb window right?
sour wasp
is that a wrong belief?
wet ruin
according to sims yes
halcyon badger
What is tb window ? I usually refresh bleeds with 4-5-6 seconds left
sudden ocean
rose violet
I think that’s why he wrote apply brain
sudden ocean
My australian internet only allows me to refresh my bleeds every 30 seconds or so, I'm gonna tap out of this convo
sour wasp
shrimp on the barbie mate
wet ruin
@rose violet applying brain in this situation doesn't work
solid nova
sour wasp
@halcyon badger tb window- after you use toxic blade you wanna stuff in as many envenoms as you can, as they benefit from the 30% dmg increase given by toxic blade, meaning you 1. time your bleeds in a way as to not have to refresh them during toxic blade and consume combo points that could be used to envenom and 2. you pool some energy before tb comes off cd
solid nova
Knock it off
sudden ocean
Sorry boss, was writing in my native english
solid nova
Idc
halcyon badger
@sour wasp I usually pool some energy for toxic blade but I never refreshed early, I use toxic blade on cooldown and I refresh buffs when it's time to do it, regardless of toxic blade. Am I doing it wrong
sour wasp
gain is minimal anyways
you aim for 2 envenoms inside of tb when out of cds/burst windows
you can get up to 4-5 with some luck and cds
godspeed, my friend!
scarlet sequoia
pretty sure you aim for 3 envenoms in tb
if you only get 2 then you're doing something wrong
winter moss
not pooling for example
wet ruin
there are some situations where you can't get 3
scarlet sequoia
sure, but aim is 3
winter moss
sorry raz i had to take you for example
vivid prism
Question about coral and target switching do all the stacks from each target combine together on next use for the crit buff? Or dose it only go off one target and how many stacks are on that target and what if that target dies do you just start over on another target?
scarlet sequoia
np mate
upbeat geode
mac you just inspired me to make a WA that yells "stop" at me when there is 8 sec cd left on toxic blade
winter moss
what? me?
upbeat geode
that picture
marble elm
It will extract if you have stacks on any target no matter what you are targeting if you press it again
Unless you die
cobalt pelican
when i die i want 2 go to the coral in the sky
winter moss
well that 8 secs can vary very much
sour wasp
idk, i remember gettin oranges by pressing everything that comes off cd and maintain bleeds
distant lava
pretty sure you can't always fit 3 in
winter moss
BL - higher energy reg
Quick Nav proccs - higher energy reg
OP proc - higher energy reg
those 8 seconds are somewhat... random
winter moss
gcb 
distant lava
@winter moss I follow my sims 
verbal mantle
I remember using it on Uldir, with Exsangu
distant lava
I member using it 2 days ago
verbal mantle
but it's not really handy, esp for Mythic
winter moss
big boi sim 
upbeat geode
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/r42hDxJLcg6f91tB#fight=last&type=damage-done
is anyone willing to look at my logs and explain me why im shit?
distant lava
@winter moss I can go higher if I switch chest and pick np on shoulder and loyal on head but hey nobody runs it in my raid so there's no point
waxen cliff
Font 😦
winter moss
waxen cliff
Unlucky
winter moss
wdym font is great
cobalt pelican
cyclotronic is surely at least a minor upgrade to a 435 gcb
distant lava
it's not
cobalt pelican
and gcb is has 100% stand in your circle time in sim
winter moss
ayyy bit of pooling you got there... wanna empower the next vendetta even more? just get font GGezwin
worn crag
How is Galecaller Boon for us? Because I got it 450 with socket but it feels shit lol
vivid prism
@marble elm Thank you
distant lava
tbh with font and gcb it feels giga
waxen cliff
Sims shit for me.
sour wasp
a 440 tiny electromental that does nothing sims better tha cyclotronic for me
waxen cliff
Haha
winter moss
just get a 440 punchcard
marble elm
Yea if u die and get rezzed make sure to reapply Coral even if the boss still has stacks
U will be very sad when u try to extract and u just reapply another stack and incur a 20s cd
rigid mango
@upbeat geode you overcap cp's with muti, missed a tb cast, you keep on pumping higher cp ruptures into bubbles
http://prntscr.com/oomodf wont get you far log wise
tiny finch
Should i reaply bleeds on the vendetta window?
distant lava
@winter moss solid TB on my part there 
rigid mango
Two of them also were on the same target
rigid mango
verbal mantle
Let me being bad okey 
rigid mango
sour wasp
normal parses 
distant lava
what can I say I like orange
rigid mango
Dw he's equally bad on mythic
distant lava
sue me
rigid mango
strange python
Normal zaqul parses 
cobalt pelican
i played sub in normal and accidentally got like all rank 1s with no idea how to play
my ilvl parses were 0 though cause nobody had my ilvl playing sub
: (
winter moss
dj got braindamages from outlaw plays
marble elm
I was gonna play it on Jaina reclear and put one on the board but someone else did it the week I was going to
distant lava
I mean can you blame me for not being 100% focused on normal sivarra tho ?
upbeat geode
@rigid mango thanks for checking my logs, how would you dmg bubbles?
sour wasp
you don't dmg bubbles
rigid mango
2-3 cp rupture
sour wasp
ez clap
distant lava
you go outlaw 
cobalt pelican
heresy
upbeat geode
so the energy you get back from higher rups is not worth it?
ok imma just ignore bubbles and tell my officers my class discord told me to 😄
distant lava
@winter moss I'm just following what the APL does 
winter moss
tropic ocean
if you worry about m+ stats
just crit everything
I pump my crit from 38% to 44% and somehow it feels better the more I increase it
distant lava
I mean for that log my brain wasn't working, neither were my traits @winter moss , 0 bbi procs in 2min20 secs 
marble elm
Doesn’t the apl vanish rupture with ma if tb isn’t immediately available
winter moss
how
distant lava
idk how
winter moss
absolutly zero procs?
cobalt pelican
shouldn't
cobalt pelican
i think it only happens if like
cobalt pelican
it checks if rupture is <7.2
if it's not, it vanishes
but then if rupture hits pandemic in that window
it'll refresh
winter moss
what the fuck dj
distant lava
@rigid mango sims the highest 🤷
distant lava
@winter moss on that log the other rogue crit 70% of his envenoms
winter moss
i wish i could share my disability to play rogue properly
true nexus
is it ever ok to waste 1 cbp to toxic blade at 5
so envenom is stronger
or just wait and use it as generator?
rigid mango
It's always fine to use tb
cobalt pelican
o and apparently it got fixed
rigid mango
on full cp
cobalt pelican
to not even do that
rigid mango
Yeah
scarlet sequoia
can it just be wednesday already 
true nexus
does phial sim better than what it really is
for m+
or is it a solid trinket to use
sudden ocean
it's solid in m+
runic basin
Hi guys did u use Force multi Multiplier on main or off hand?`
true nexus
bad elaborate uptime?
envenom doesnt get buffed by the EP it procs right
you have to have it rolling previous?
red plaza
@runic basin difference in dps is <6 If you have an outlaw set and use one of the daggers in the OH plan around that instead. Other than that, it doesn't matter which hand enchants go
runic basin
ty
upbeat geode
yes alfredo, else it would not be called planning
red plaza
Elaborate Reaction when?
upbeat geode
Well its bliz naming the skill so you can never be sure
tepid ridge
no clue about what to play as essences on zaqul... I guess I'll go vision major and lucid minor, if anyone got better ideas tell me, I obviously dont have bote r3 otherwise I would go bote major / vision minor :/
I'm obviously hysteria realm for both echoes of delirium
solid nova
Looks like outside of bote thats what everyone else has taken
rigid mango
Bote or clf, I don't really see much else being that good 
tepid ridge
I mean what could I go with CLF?
on BL at 2min then wait to the 2nd echoes
sounds really crap
tepid ridge
I was considering vision as major + lucid for minor high value
cobalt pelican
if you're going to play vision for timers just play the minor
tepid ridge
dunno
cobalt pelican
vision major sounds like assbutts
cobalt pelican
no
i wouldn't be surprised if 1 rly fast rock man does more damage than all your visions procs across the entire fight
that's how bad it is
scarlet sequoia
or u just farm bote rank 3 real quick
rigid mango
real quick
marble elm
Only takes a day or 2
rigid mango
@marble elm no u 
tepid ridge
hmm just thinking about it but what about CoF?
going on echoes with 2 stacks / 1 big one wouldn't be better?
quasi pewter
how far are you into fight? / are you wiping to dps on 2nd split?
if not just take clf lucid
its easily the best choice if you dont have bote
and if ur not wiping to add dps then clf lucid will provide most boss dps aswell
if ur wiping to 2nd split just take clf vision
for first kill i also used punchcard trinket and used that + rock boi on 2nd split, difference between first add dps and 2nd wasnt that big
tepid ridge
we will go to 2nd add consistently tonight, had to replace the tank last night so kinda rude raid "reprogress"
quasi pewter
also use crit pot on 2nd add
marble elm
u can also lust for one of them if your raid is lusting not in p1
tepid ridge
we are lusting at 2'
marble elm
2 mins?
tepid ridge
2'05