assassination

[cobalt pelican]

i think it's mostly preference

[rigid mango]

That I just wont see RNG'ing chest as a viable option

until I've gotten goraks/helm

[cobalt pelican]

pretty sensible i think

[past marten]

Ye

Gorak is op

[cobalt pelican]

so is sanguine monstrosity

: )

[past marten]

So I'll continue getting sanguine four weeks straight

8.1 all over again

[rigid mango]

I'm rolling head for m+/outlaw/small st gain until zaq

[dapper plover]

sanguine is free weeks

[arctic walrus]

Do I still go for gorak or try ceph

[rigid mango]

Gorak

[dapper plover]

but it does make some dungs annoying

[rigid mango]

I think you

really misunderstood what we were talking about

[past marten]

The new font/coral sim boosts my crit weight, so Gorak is actually even more valuable

[rigid mango]

I'm happy they added it

[arctic walrus]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/snttHJz5KsaRHcBgEgSecP

Odds aren't looking good

[cobalt pelican]

you're due some luck i believe in you :')

i'm only being nice so that santa claus will smile upon me and give me stuff too

[arctic walrus]

If I scrap both my pistoleer's I'll have enough to try again Tuesday :^)

[past marten]

Whoever sims 47k already doesn't deserve luck :^)

[rigid mango]

That's a droptimizer sim though

[arctic walrus]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/oozQ8Lwz9uxKrE29WmbjWh

See nothing great

It's no night or rktm

[past marten]

Still 1.5k more than me :p

[arctic walrus]

Or Saryero

Those guys have actual luck

[low junco]

"doesnt deserve luck"

listen here m8 my raid spoon feeds me gear 😡

[rigid mango]

Have you not seen raz's sims vel

[past marten]

I did neither

Is he lucky too?

The mechagon rings with socket are the dream rn

[cobalt pelican]

when 90% of dam hinges on trinket drops and gambling

fun times

[past marten]

You have his sim @rigid mango ?

[rigid mango]

You can control F his name and a link

Bet you'll find it

[arctic walrus]

I'd trade in this gear lottery for pb procs anyday

[low junco]

guys imagine not simming 45k 4 weeks into the tier

[crisp steppe]

[arctic walrus]

I don't wanna get even more depressed seeing someone mathematically better than me just cuz he right clicked a bosses corpse more skillfully than I

[past marten]

PB procs? What is that again?

[rigid mango]

I'd rather take DD procs

Just give me every DD proccing ty vm

[arctic walrus]

I'm still salty with my first kill on Star Augur

I got 3 pb procs

It was like a 6-7 minute fight smh

[strange python]

shit happens

[cobalt pelican]

like this game

i'm runescape only gamer now

[past marten]

What does pb stand for?

[cobalt pelican]

boison pomb

[arctic walrus]

poison bomb

[past marten]

Ah

[low junco]

public best

[strange python]

xD

[past marten]

Fuck pb

Only procs when tanks move ashvane

[strange python]

but nowadays

[arctic walrus]

Meh at least its damage is largely irrelevant nowadays

[strange python]

pb does zero dmg in comparison to legion

[past marten]

Well, we're discussing 1% differences in dps on gear

TB procs can sometimes make exactly the same difference

PB sorry

[arctic walrus]

Legion

[strange python]

😃

[past marten]

Oof

[marble elm]

u didnt like the chinese guilds playing 4 grip tanks on portal keeper and resetting the boss if they didnt get pbs to grip into

?

[strange python]

great times and if u lucky with massive pb rows, the raid dies cause the tank has fallen over a stone

[arctic walrus]

When is it okay to like anything a chinese guild does

[crisp steppe]

ah yes the much dreaded portal keeper boss 🤔

[cold patio]

Font+Coral usage is now 4sec pre Font -> coral and than coral with every vend?

[dapper plover]

epic sin gamers i need help

[bronze topaz]

are we still going with spyglass and dice for m+ or are there better raid trinkets?

[crisp steppe]

spyglass for sure

[rigid mango]

@cold patio It's in #tc-research should be pinned soon

@bronze topaz spyglass is aight, font/coral look nuts

[past marten]

Mystler's post, right @rigid mango ?

[rigid mango]

Yep

[cold patio]

yeah i found it there just wanted double check^^ played 10sec pre and useing coral stacks with 3th vend

[rigid mango]

Ah tc updates nvm

14 pre vend (:

[bronze topaz]

how do i utilitze coral? when i tried it i was running around with only ~2 stacks all the time because adds died pretty fast.

[scarlet sequoia]

@rigid mango just wait till Wednesday, I’ll sim 48,5k

[rigid mango]

[scarlet sequoia]

Big pog

[dapper plover]

how many dots are too much

before i just evenom instead

[rigid mango]

Why wedn @scarlet sequoia

[scarlet sequoia]

I get bis chest from pvp

[cobalt pelican]

it's CHEST WEEK WOO

[scarlet sequoia]

And 63 neck

[rigid mango]

Guaranteed?

[cold patio]

when u know channel font 4sec precombat when u prepot?^^

[scarlet sequoia]

Yes 100%

It’s from cap and I have a trophy

[signal summit]

whats the name of the agi flasks

i have forgot lol

[rigid mango]

Idk what the system is for pvp

[cobalt pelican]

every week above 2.1 you get a chance at an upgrade token you can just

sit on forever

it drops from your box

[rigid mango]

@cold patio channel at 5 instead

An upgrade token?

[cobalt pelican]

ya

item you apply to other item to make it bigger

[scarlet sequoia]

Warlords trophy, look it up

[rigid mango]

Will do

[scarlet sequoia]

I got one 2 weeks in a row so got bis head and chest from pvp

[cobalt pelican]

i'll never get a fking warlords trophy at this rate this season

[rigid mango]

I should really grind 2100 huh

[cobalt pelican]

it's super worth at the start of a tier

even though that's the most pain in the ass time to get it

it's been basically double azerite chances for me throughout bfa

but i still never lucky

[rigid mango]

I wouldn't mind getting a chance at zaq helm early

[cobalt pelican]

any week now i'll get trophy for it

and delete my goggles

[rigid mango]

but like how does it work

You just buy the piece and upgrade w trophy?

[cobalt pelican]

nah

each week there's like

two things

[fossil forge]

!ui

[cobalt pelican]

you get your weekly box, based on your rating

and your weekly conquest cap, which is fixed ilvl to 415

your weekly box can contain either a warlords trophy, which upgrades any piece to your ratings ilvl

or any of the set pieces (including azerite pieces themselves)

you have to wait for the weekly conquest cap to have 415 helm

cap, get the helm and wait

[dapper plover]

how do i grind conquest

points

[cobalt pelican]

or if you want chest you have to wait for the chest week which is next week for example

[rigid mango]

So you need to RNG helm and RNG trophy?

[cobalt pelican]

cause it's a set rotation of item

nah the helm is like

2nd week of conquest

it went like

weps > helms > trinkets > legs > chest

or some shi

so you just cap conquest 2x (doable in ~2 hours of 2v2 or some shit) and grab the 415 helm from the reward

[rigid mango]

And then rng the trophy, aight

[sudden juniper]

!benthic

[rigid mango]

in the pins

[cobalt pelican]

yea rng either the trophy or the helm already at 445 from the weekly box like m+ basically

it's kinda weird you can still get full azerite pieces from your pvp weekly chest but eh whatever

[rigid mango]

Sounds like a lot of effort

[cobalt pelican]

you basically just get the rating and open your box on wednesday

[rigid mango]

To have rng dick me down anyways

[cobalt pelican]

getting the rating is a pain depending on if you know people or not

2 boxes is like

100% better than 1 box on wednesday though

it's like DOUBLE christmas

[rigid mango]

Yeah but I don't really play pvp

[cobalt pelican]

yee

[rigid mango]

nor do I know any healers so

[cobalt pelican]

it's a pain in the ass if you don't have like

some guy you can just queue with

cause lfg is like

bigkanker

[rigid mango]

Probably wont do it tbh

if I knew some healer whow as keen I might

But the only ppl I can think of, are all dps

[sudden juniper]

which benthic belt should we go for?

vim's?

[rigid mango]

Yep

[sudden juniper]

unless on the eye boss and za'qul i suppose

[shy axle]

raid bots shows me to gem everything to hase, stat weights show haste last. I should follow the raidbots best gear sim right?

[winged pumice]

hey guys. im at 423 ilvl and im simming 29k dps on patchwork, is this super low?

[cobalt pelican]

no

and yes just follow top gear as long as you can confirm you have all of the gems selected for simming

[shy axle]

ye i had

thanks

[winged pumice]

another question. is the best build for m+ a bleed orientated build or a poison build? or are both equal and only dependant on stats? im a bit of a noob player and im looking to improve my m+ dps without switching to outlaw

[true nexus]

is EB a necessity for m+

[placid dawn]

yes, otherwise your trash damage sucks

[true nexus]

need 3?

[placid dawn]

nah

1 should be fine

[true nexus]

I just have 1 rn without fucking up my st set

i dont have enough azerite gear rn to make two sin sets

[placid dawn]

dont go with DD though, it sucks for m+

[meager granite]

Depends on the dungeon, you will need at least 1 for all and go up to 3 if it is trash heavy

[true nexus]

b/c you fan more than you mut?

[placid dawn]

because you pretty much only fok

[meager granite]

BIS traits for m+ are SS TTK and EB

all have a different purpose tho

[winged pumice]

i really want to just have a single set for both dungeons and raids, so what would be the best set of traits? i dont play the game enough to have 2 sets (i know it wont be bis for either)

[placid dawn]

you cant really, raids and m+ need different things

i guess if you really really can't, go with ttk and SS traits

and keep some piece with 1 EB on the side

or just play outlul

[meager granite]

go play outlaw will be the best answer we can give you i guess. Because you'll need at least 2 sets for assa.

[winged pumice]

my problem with playing outlaw is both of my weapons are trash :/ i sim 5k less with outlaw, even with my good ilvl dagger in offh

[cobalt pelican]

you can play the game for like

1 hour a week and have 2 sets

they'll just both be low ilvl sets but be better at each thing

[placid dawn]

tbh, if you dont play the game enough to get 2 sets you are probably not going to do very high keys and stuff

[meager granite]

Weapons are droppable in m+, it should not be smth that will hold you back. Offhand dps is rly low and doesnt matter that much overall

[placid dawn]

its fine to have a 415 set for m+ and some other set for raids

youll be fine

[winged pumice]

i usually do up to 10+

in a week

[placid dawn]

yea, my current m+ set with 415 azerite since i used my stuff for raids

[meager granite]

You can have 420 azerite parts for m+ with bis traits. It will be better than 445 with sub optimal ones

[placid dawn]

and i manage 15s easily enough

[winged pumice]

so even if my ilvl decreases quite a bit and lose a few stats, the second set will still be better bc of traits?

[placid dawn]

probably

[cobalt pelican]

depends on the traits but as ageneral rule of thumb yes

i still run 1 420 piece in m+ despite having several higher ilvl

[winged pumice]

okay then. i have 2 420 chests but aside from that, i have like 385 ilvl head and shoulders spare

[meager granite]

I am full 420 still and doing 17+ keys easely

[placid dawn]

whats your ilvl? you can get a 415 piece from an emisary

and if you manage a 10 you can probably buy 445 pieces eventually

[winged pumice]

im 423

[placid dawn]

yea, emisaries will give you 415 pieces

[winged pumice]

yeah thats how i got my assa set, guess it will just be a waiting game then or just farm mythic +, thanks guys

[cobalt pelican]

probably advice some people will disagree with but

if you're turbocasual

but do a 10

just buy a shitload of 415 pieces

if you have 385 pieces still somehow in helm slot

1 10 is like.. 10 420 azerite rolls

and you'll get useful pieces before 10 rolls then you can save the rest to move to 430 stuff the week after

[agile abyss]

Hey guys my toon simms relatively low for my ilvl/gear. Could anyone have a little look and lemme know what you think please

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/ifH4Es4kjUseaz1ycTDJyx

[arctic walrus]

1 socket 0 benthic

[red plaza]

^^

[cobalt pelican]

ya this looks like my ilvl set

just all the junk i've accrued with high number on it

[arctic walrus]

The only holes I have on my gear anymore is my benthic, down from 10

[cobalt pelican]

i still have 9 in my assassination gear

10 with my big plumage for outlaw

[agile abyss]

I've got a couple pieces with sockets but the higher ones sim more

[red plaza]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/sPFQRvbhVBBvyphjbP1dZp -4 ilvl drop +1500dps increase

[cosmic pier]

its almost as if ilvl doesnt matter

[red plaza]

get to farmin pearls

[agile abyss]

I'm fairly casual particularly with raiding so I'll not push too hard for the benthic. Thanks for the tips

[placid dawn]

im 1200 pearls in on boots, only have wrists so far

i gave up

[vestal wren]

get belt, its a fast gamble

boots/hands are worse

[placid dawn]

yea, i guess ill try that

i got a 450 belt though, so i didnt prioritise it

[strange python]

fathomstalker or vim?

[cobalt pelican]

are you hitting an aberration

[tropic ocean]

should get phys dmg one first as it works on 6/8 bosses

and for orgozoa zaqul aberration belt is better

[quasi pewter]

well it works on all bosses just other one is better for 2 of them

[strange python]

just got fathomstalker with socket

[uncut cave]

its easiest to get the belts socketed tho as there's only 2 for leather, but like 4-6 for some of the other pieces

[tropic ocean]

@quasi pewter yeah basically what I maernt

meant*

[quasi pewter]

i know i know

[red plaza]

https://tenor.com/view/why-not-both-gif-11478682

[strange python]

Sorry for asking this but do u guys remove coral from the boss when the big adds pop on Radiance ?

and re use coral on the boss when adds die ?

[placid dawn]

I just use it with vendetta

on repop it on boss when it runs out

[desert vault]

so the wrist I got, benthic, deals damage to all nearby enemies, but that is not one of the two BiS correct/

?

[placid dawn]

its frost damage or fish

[desert vault]

ok, this just does physical damage it was socketed though so it might be ok

but i'll keep rolling for the others

[rigid mango]

No, it's not as good as the others

[strange python]

Kinda confuse about azshara trinket and coral in the fight i know for the opening but i don't know if it's better to use azshara trinket do vendetta etc and then use coral because of the cd when u one trinket

[chilly marsh]

what you guys are using for m+ ? IRIS or Blood ?

i've been trying both and im starting to think blood is better

also looking at some logs : https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/20#class=Rogue&spec=Assassination&leaderboards=1

its like 60% blood 40% iris

[solid nova]

Updated pin to include coral and font use

[solemn meadow]

@solid nova

[royal lantern]

feels like blood is better for tyranical weeks

but thats just my opinion, dont take it as a fact

[sterile chasm]

Hey, how u sim your best gear bcs i cant decide 😦

[pseudo hamlet]

@solid nova I'm not sure if I got it right? I'm using Font 5 sec before the fight(for the full stats buff) go full CDs(Vendetta/TB etc.)... and then use Coral to stack debuff on the boss and use the coral with 100% crit with Vendetta?

[rigid mango]

Do you think it's incorrect if pinned? @pseudo hamlet ?

[sterile chasm]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/aQBhY6nFc4Wpmxwj#fight=1&type=damage-done what I did bad can someone tell me

[pseudo hamlet]

@rigid mango I mean like Azshara trinket is going off the CD the same time Vendetta all the time(they both have 2 min cd), but if Coral is stronger with Vendetta window then it's fine.

[winter gale]

How and when shall I use guardian of azeroth ?

[untold current]

On CD

[rigid mango]

in the pins

@pseudo hamlet but would you not want 14 seconds of our vend being empowered by both trinks 🤔

[pseudo hamlet]

More like 10 sec, but yeah. That's true.

[rigid mango]

No

exactly 14.

Since I was the dude who talked w the TC guys about this even being an upgrade, trust me I know what I'm talking about 😄

It's specifically for the combo of the two trinkets though.

[pseudo hamlet]

Ah yeah, it's goes CD the moment you start to cast. My bad!

[rigid mango]

[vestal abyss]

Hi! can we talk about openers on queens court?

[rigid mango]

Depends on your setup

[crystal vessel]

Does DD damage increase with mastery?

[topaz trout]

I brought up the usage of font+coral ages ago but not confirming its a true method. Good to know its been confirmed

[royal torrent]

on ashvane would you consider replacing font with inkpod?

[topaz trout]

gonna depend on timings I think but ink very good for ashvane. I think its got a cap of 1.5 mil damage

[rigid mango]

Inkpod is reallt good on first kills for sure

When you rekill and get sub 30% before 3rd shield it'll probs get a bit worse

[magic thorn]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/3ncXYFT9nZCQzbxgdGH68k
Do we have a new Opener ?

When looking at the Ability Sample

[drifting cloud]

yes both this and the old one work

I guess this one is a 10 dps gain or whatever

[placid root]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/xhjm32BkeFCfryywCWxDFv guys what can I do to improve ? Im new here

[rigid mango]

With that dps, probably everything

[placid root]

how can I get more dps then? I don't really understand

[rigid mango]

Benthic, better azerite

better trinkets

better weapons

sockets

All of the above

[placid root]

what about m+ or you are not familiar with it?

[rigid mango]

I'm entirely familiar with it

[placid root]

ok what about it what azerite powers to stack ?

[rigid mango]

ss/eb/ttk

Any mix, need atleast 1 ss and eb

[placid root]

okay man thank you

[rigid mango]

glgl

[placid root]

and also i want to ask why does my stat weight say I need mastery I got 41%

do i need more?

[cerulean walrus]

If it says you need more

You need more

[normal shale]

Out of sheer curiosity how well does 3 NP's + rank 3 vision of perfection parse?

[meager nebula]

Not well

[cerulean walrus]

Vision is a very poor choice

[rigid mango]

Vision is acceptable as a minor on zaqul for lineups

[bronze kelp]

@placid root if single target sim tell you mastery is your best value, stick to it

[rigid mango]

Other than that, never.

[normal shale]

Not that I have the stuff to run it, I just had read somewhere vision procs the NP trait, so was curious if it did anything decent.

[drifting cloud]

it was on ptr

got nerfed before it went live

[wet ruin]

it procs it with a lower dmg according to the time of the proc

[normal shale]

Ah

[strange python]

with 3 DD

when should i actually FoK

4+?

[drifting cloud]

maybe even 5

almost never in raid basically

[wet ruin]

just do it to apply poison if you need to

[normal shale]

Best raid DPS I'm assuming is shooting for 3DD and 3NPs.

[magic silo]

hi everyone

I've got a slight problem with understanding an azerite trait

[rigid mango]

@normal shale 3 dd 1 np bbi ttk/ 3 op

[drifting cloud]

best raid dps is zaqul helm, gorak shoulders, behe/ceph chest

[normal shale]

Oh damn, a dungeon azerite piece?

[magic silo]

I managed to get the top1 solo target shoulders and now I have a choice between two traits

lol

[rigid mango]

1/2 of them, yeah

[magic silo]

no

anyway

[rigid mango]

(wasn't answering you if you thought I did)

[magic silo]

from bloodmallet I realised the best one is https://www.wowhead.com/spell=303008/undulating-tides

[cerulean walrus]

No it isn’t

[rigid mango]

It's really bad

[wet ruin]

bis helm and bis chest can also be obtained from pvp

[rigid mango]

It's a bait sim

[magic silo]

and I don't have the faintest idea why

[rigid mango]

It would be bonkers

if it didn't lock you out for 45 sec if you drop sub 50%

[magic silo]

YES

and I really don't know

[rigid mango]

It's infact, very mediocre for any content that would drop you low.

[magic silo]

why is it a good choice

[cerulean walrus]

It isn’t. Don’t use it

[magic silo]

so is bloodmallet good enough?

I mean

[normal shale]

Didn't realize BBI was so good.

[magic silo]

should I even check my traits with this source

[drifting cloud]

well bloodmallet doesnt assume you drop below 50%

[magic silo]

lol

[cerulean walrus]

It assumes UT has 100% uptime

[magic silo]

ok I see, I'd choose this one instead https://www.wowhead.com/spell=277679/scent-of-blood

actually

maybe I'm a little bit annoying but

[drifting cloud]

well scent is so bad id rather keep UT tbh

[magic silo]

I'm confessing that it's my first experience on the rogue

[drifting cloud]

but it really depends what kind of content you are running

and in either way you should sim and go from there

[magic silo]

why this trait is one of the best https://es.wowhead.com/spell=286573/nada-personal

[rigid mango]

Does damage, gives energy

Don't see how that's ever not good

[cerulean walrus]

Because everything as a Sin rogue revolves around Vendetta

[past marten]

Choosing between UT and Scent

[magic silo]

you know, I can understand why the tides are good cause you're supposed to live and not to drop your hp below 50%

[cerulean walrus]

Yeah that’s a shit scenario to have to pick

[magic silo]

to keep the damage buff on you

but 2 energy per sec

like

[cerulean walrus]

Yeah but unavoidable damage is a thing

[drifting cloud]

its not the energy, its the damage it does

[cerulean walrus]

Yes

[magic silo]

aah

[cerulean walrus]

Energy isn’t the main perk

It just happens to have it tacked on

Which is a bonus

[magic silo]

actually it might be combined with the essence

at least its minor part

[past marten]

And there's like no point in discussing it, it's just good. Period.

[magic silo]

I don't know the proper Eng name for it

like for 35% effiency of your cd

or sth like this

[cerulean walrus]

Vision is extremely bad

If that’s what you’re referencing

[magic silo]

yes

[strange python]

Guys, when do I use my CLF in my opener?

[cerulean walrus]

It’s very bad

[magic silo]

I see

[drifting cloud]

before vendetta krisko

[rigid mango]

It should be in the pins.

[strange python]

but it gets you out of stealth? @drifting cloud

how many seconds before pull

[magic silo]

I don't have a choice now lmao

[strange python]

should you use it on

[rigid mango]

?

Before vend

[drifting cloud]

its like your 4th global start of the fight

or something like that

[rigid mango]

It's after the initial MA window

Before popping vend

[strange python]

how can I use it before vendetta if it gets me out of stealth

unless you mean

[rigid mango]

?

[strange python]

during combat/

?

[rigid mango]

Yes?

[strange python]

kk

[rigid mango]

You don't use vendetta that early

right?

You do use it after getting unstealthed, right?

[past marten]

It's basically your fifth global

[strange python]

man on radiance putting bleeds on the adds feeels so abd

they die so fast

@rigid mango wtf you don't vendetta on pull?

[past marten]

2/3 cp rupture sniping feels actually good

What do you mean Krisko

[rigid mango]

You do, but after your initial opener?

[past marten]

Are you actually using Vendetta as first global from stealth?

[rigid mango]

@strange python how are you opening out of stealth?

[strange python]

vendetta - goa - garrot - mut - rupt

@rigid mango

[rigid mango]

!guide

[prisma monolith]

Assassination Guide: http://www.ravenholdt.net/assassination-guide/

[rigid mango]

read that

[cerulean walrus]

Clearly trolling

That’s bait

[past marten]

I hope it is

[magic silo]

one more question, I'd just like to hear the opinion from experienced rogues

I've got probably the easiest obtained shoulders now

but as I see

[cerulean walrus]

EB

Yikes

[magic silo]

they're good enough

[cerulean walrus]

Should have taken SS

[magic silo]

aren't they

[signal summit]

go ss instead imo

[cerulean walrus]

Take SS and retalent into Subterfuge

[magic silo]

ss is?

[cerulean walrus]

Shrouded Suffocation

[past marten]

Shrouded suffocation

[cerulean walrus]

It boosts garrote damage

And grants 2 CP

[magic silo]

yes

I see

ACTUALLY lol

was always wondering

when I had some shitty shoulders with it

[past marten]

FoK is M+ only (or to pad logs on Opulence)

[magic silo]

like what is the main point of it on bosses when I can use garrote up to 3 times

[cerulean walrus]

You don’t use it 3 times

[magic silo]

after stealth

[cerulean walrus]

With Subt

Garrote Rupture Garrote

[magic silo]

oh lol

I've never thought about it before

[cerulean walrus]

You overlap CP if you do it 3 times

[drifting cloud]

well EB on bosses would be 0 dmg

[cerulean walrus]

Overcap*

hell you overcap if you do it 2 times

[past marten]

And you're not increasing the damage, because you profit from Pandemic only once

[cerulean walrus]

Right

[strange python]

@cerulean walrus what

[cerulean walrus]

?

[strange python]

@rigid mango

who is troling

[rigid mango]

Sup

[cerulean walrus]

You are

[rigid mango]

I mean you hadn't read the guide

[strange python]

no?

Never

[solid nova]

[strange python]

I just read the pins

[rigid mango]

I'd recommend reading the core guide

[strange python]

cause everyone spams "read the pins"

everytime I ask a question

[magic silo]

pandemic is the other talent, isn't it?

[cerulean walrus]

You said to Vend on pull

That’s obvious trolling

[magic silo]

I was trying to remember it lol

[solid nova]

Pandemic isn't a talent

[cerulean walrus]

Nah pandemic is a passive

It’s just innate

Adds time to your existing dots

[magic silo]

aaaaah

like

[cerulean walrus]

From* your existing dots

[magic silo]

below 30%

[solid nova]

@magic silo there's a pinned definition

[magic silo]

when you use rupture

[strange python]

@cerulean walrus sry bro that you're better than me

maybe u can point out vendetta on pull isnt good instead of calling it trolling

would be more helpful 😃

[magic silo]

yes, I'm peeking at it

[solid nova]

@strange python have you read the guide at all?

[cerulean walrus]

Dude obviously vendetta on pull is bad......

[solid nova]

It's a good starting point

[cerulean walrus]

Like what?

[strange python]

y now I can thanks to zine

😃

[rigid mango]

[strange python]

thanks zine for being useful 😃

[magic silo]

there're so many new acronyms lol as well as words for me cause I haven't experienced the english rogue yet

in russian we use them too tho

[solid nova]

!abb

[prisma monolith]

Rogue abbreviations: http://www.ravenholdt.net/rogue-abbreviations/

[solid nova]

!guide

[prisma monolith]

Assassination Guide: http://www.ravenholdt.net/assassination-guide/

[magic silo]

but now as many lmao

[drifting cloud]

yeah its called pandemic because before only warlock had it

and thats what it was called there

[magic silo]

but thank you

[cerulean walrus]

Yeah

[magic silo]

ok so eventually

I'd just choose sth like this on my benthic

and probably use it on the rb

[cerulean walrus]

I’d try to get the piece replaced ASAP

If possible

[magic silo]

the problem is that I've got two not so awful shoulders I guess

at least imo

obviously they're not the best but I must get gear before the eternal palace

[cerulean walrus]

Ah you haven’t started yet okay

[magic silo]

and m+ surely

yup

[cerulean walrus]

How much TR do you have?

Titan Residuum

[magic silo]

lol I was just starting finding the definition lmao

around 5k LOL

[cerulean walrus]

Hmmm

[magic silo]

like I've just started

so yes

it's not 200k as you can see xD

[cerulean walrus]

Well yeah rolling specifics is a joke unless you only need that one piece

[magic silo]

sorry I didn't get it

lol

early evening xD

again please

[cerulean walrus]

Benthic shoulders can up to up to 430 correct?

[drifting cloud]

yeah but 415-430 is 350 pearls

[magic silo]

yes

I'd stay on 415 I guess

[cerulean walrus]

Hmmm

Im wondering if he should roll for 415 Gorak’s or something

[normal shale]

415 a safe ilvl to start working on another lottery?

Benthic.

[cerulean walrus]

Cause that’s still far better than anything else that he can get

[normal shale]

Got boots with a gem, been feeding to pearls. Only doing heroic raiding ATM, should I switch to lottery belt now?

[magic silo]

gorak?

[steady grotto]

use guardian of azeroth pre pull?

[cerulean walrus]

Gorak Tul’s Mantle

[magic silo]

I'll google it

[atomic saddle]

I'm simming 230 dps higher with Head 1: DD / NP / Overwhelming Power but I get way better results on ashvane with Head 2: DD / TTK / Gutripper. Boss not below 30% health yet. How is that possible? Its feels way better.

[cerulean walrus]

OP is OP

[drifting cloud]

its not, your feelings are wrong

gutripper before 30% is a trash trait

[magic silo]

ok lol it's just from a dungeon

[cerulean walrus]

Yes

But it’s BiS

By a landslide

[quartz depot]

maybe just get more consistent in your performance

instead of thinking it's your gear

[magic silo]

sure

but I must start with sth lol

and in addition

[quartz depot]

was talking to the other guy

[magic silo]

I've found you cause no one from my guild knows about the specific performance (don't know the proper word lol) of Undulating Tides trait

I see, sorry

[quartz depot]

dont use that trait

[magic silo]

yes, I've been already told about its drawback

like

I'm not even able to survive the whole battle on >50% hp in m+

not always but anyway

[atomic saddle]

Nah im changing the two heads constantly, always getting better results with DD + TTK what sims 230 dps lower than DD + NP one...

[quartz depot]

do you have another np trait somewhere

[rigid mango]

The results seem very anecdotal

[meager nebula]

Your results from a few attempts don't compare to the thousands of iterations in a sim

[atomic saddle]

No I dont have another NP trait

Its pretty weird... I usually trust sims but I end up way higher every try with Head 2, that should be worse.

[cerulean walrus]

Perhaps the human element is the issue

[rigid mango]

This is the raw definition

Of feelycraft

[meager nebula]

Also variance

Is a thing

[past marten]

@magic silo I always recommend playing in English, as it makes it so much easier to understand what people are talking about in forums or here on Discord

[lime marsh]

Should I be holding vendetta for TB to come up?

[rigid mango]

Yep

[magic silo]

@past marten sure, it's way easier

again, to tell the truth

godfathers from either vanilla or bc was playing on English

as a result, now it's much more convenient for players to use english names of spells, items, talents, specs etc.

(actually, I don't know what's going on with other languages, however russian translations are a little bit awkward)

the last question (and it's not connected with rogues particularly, though)

you've said the best shoulders are these ones

https://www.wowhead.com/item=159339/gorak-tuls-mantle

[rigid mango]

They are the BiS.

[magic silo]

but even in m+ its ilvl is too low, isn't it?

[rigid mango]

You can buy them from a vendor

[dense blaze]

He doesn't know lmao

[magic silo]

I mean, 370

[rigid mango]

at 430/445

For titan residuum

[magic silo]

aah

I didn't tho

ok not I understand, thank you

[hearty pewter]

Isn't using TB at 3 CP acceptable?

You can crit and get to 5 for an envenom, but 4 CP finishers are generally OK

[rigid mango]

You finish at 4

[hearty pewter]

And you potentially lose 2 CP if Mut double crits?

So TB at 3. Gives 4. Is acceptable?

[rigid mango]

Finishing at 4+ is optimal, yes

[hearty pewter]

Because I also hear using TB at 5 is fine.

[chilly marsh]

asked before my think no one was on

what you guys are using for m+ ? IRIS or Blood ?
i've been trying both and im starting to think blood is better
also looking at some logs : https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/20#class=Rogue&spec=Assassination&leaderboards=1
its like 60% blood 40% iris

[drifting cloud]

its probably blood, alot of people dont even have it

but I think the difference isnt insanely big between them

[sour wasp]

farming blood when no brawl is up lmao

[dense blaze]

If you didn't get it week one with the weekly, it's over..

[sour wasp]

yup, i'm not trying anymore

iris for m+, clf for raids

cya in 9.0

[drifting cloud]

next week theres a decentish brawl aswell

[chilly marsh]

not taht hard if you do the daily win

farmed rnak 3 in 2 weeks

[drifting cloud]

yeah im not gonna farm it, just gonna get it slowly passively

[warm sable]

What you need for rank 3 ?

[chilly marsh]

also alterac + asharan and wintercrast have a quest for 1k honor

[warm sable]

i know its 15k for Rank 2

[drifting cloud]

50k

[warm sable]

hahahahaha omg

Will just afk in alterac xD

or give it to a little brother to run around hahah '

[chilly marsh]

blood is so much better to play too

you dot everything and cast insta

for massive dmg

[sour wasp]

wintergrasp quest didn't count for the achievement for me

[drifting cloud]

you have to turn it in bg

not outside

[lost sentinel]

I feel like I know the answer... but drop DD for EB, even a second EB this week?

[drifting cloud]

you shouldnt be playing dd in m+

no matter the week

[bronze kelp]

Never use dd in m+

Only if u lack of azerite pieces, but not even then

If you hard lack of azerite pieces go farm get 400 with eb/ttk/ss

Some combinations of them

[lost sentinel]

ah yeah teeming makes eb even better

[bronze kelp]

Depends on the dungeon

But overall you are right

[narrow quiver]

for the second usage of vendetta/vanish, what is the optimal burst window rotation there? Vendetta > Vanish > Garrote > Mutilate > Rupture > TB?

[cerulean walrus]

Only vanish into garrote if you have SS

[narrow quiver]

I have 1x SS, mostly because I don't have better azerite gear yet

3x DD, 2x NP, 1x SS

[cerulean walrus]

What’s the other choice on your gear with SS?

Or is it on inner rings

[narrow quiver]

Loyal to the End

I have one with EB and DD too, but that piece doesn't have overwhelming power

[cerulean walrus]

Eh SS is fine

[granite rampart]

loyal to the end is fine if you have 4 other people in your raid using it

[shy dust]

Loyal is good with 4 others wearing

[narrow quiver]

yeah, no one is stacking it though

[shy dust]

Definitely would be stronger than using SS

[narrow quiver]

but other than that, is my burst window correct?

or should I vendetta > vanish > TB > mutilate > envenom?

and just have garrote and rupture up before burst window?

[cerulean walrus]

If you’re using SS use Garrote

Should be in the guide though

I haven’t used SS in a while

[tropic ocean]

^wat

[cerulean walrus]

Dude I’m tired AF

[tropic ocean]

this some next level trollrotation

[narrow quiver]

the guide has the opener, but not mid-fight CD burst window

[tropic ocean]

its the same

u repeat what u did in opener when vendetta/vanish comes up

[fervent jasper]

So, I've been trying out sin in keys recently (only like 15s though since I'm still getting used to it), and it feels like the damage on the trash is good (though not quite as good as outlaw), but on the boss I'm energy starved a lot and find the damage underwhelming from what I'd expect from an assassination rogue. The traits I'm running with are 3x TTK, 2x EB, and 1x SS. I have 1 overwhelming power and my essences are the focused iris major and lucid minor. From what I've read the ideal amount of haste for a sin rogue in keys is just what's on your neck. I'm running a low(ish) haste build, but I do still have some more haste than my neck gives. How do you all deal with this single tatget deficit that seems to happen on bosses with this sort of build? Right now the way it plays makes me feel like I'd be better off as outlaw doing more trash damage and slightly less boss damage.

With a lot less effort

[drifting cloud]

thats basically how it is

you have to work real hard and be good to be on par with outlaw

and gearing is 2x harder

not 100% sure how big the actual st difference is

[fervent jasper]

Then why would anybody play sin instead of outlaw in keys?

[drifting cloud]

because they are both toptier specs for m+ and some people just enjoy assa more

the difference isnt that big, mostly comes down to assa player skill

and it even slightly decreases on higher keys since assa has slightly better scaling

[echo cargo]

Cause Sin is hella fun on huge packs

Also feels higher skill ceiling on chain pulls and choosing what to focus

At least imo

[fervent jasper]

It definitely has a higher skill cap

[echo cargo]

Outlaw feels faceroll as fuck

[fervent jasper]

Ya that's why I'm trying sin

[echo cargo]

Plus if you’re better at Sin you’re going to get better results

[fervent jasper]

Well how can you be "better" at sin, assuming you know how to play both?

[rigid mango]

as a person who is a hard advocate for sin in m+

[fervent jasper]

One of then is pretty objectively easier

[rigid mango]

I'm honestly unsure if anything can beat outlaw atm.

I think sin has places it can for sure be better at, but I think outlaw is just so insane atm

[drifting cloud]

outlaw is just gonna get monk legion aoe treatment sooner or later

[rigid mango]

Pretty much

Next patch or one soon, they're gonna hamstring wits

[nimble tartan]

I think outlaw more skill 😋

[rigid mango]

[fervent jasper]

I dont understand the rational of this low haste build though

[drifting cloud]

haste is 0 dps stat on aoe

[rigid mango]

Haste is usless if you have 3 targets

[drifting cloud]

you aoe stuff 80% of dungeon timer

thats about it

[rigid mango]

You hit 5 bleeds

and you GCD lock without haste

[fervent jasper]

Yeah but then you fight the boss and and spend half the fight waiting for mutilate to light up

[rigid mango]

I run 1 haste weap ench + as many op I can + lucid minor to make up for the lack of haste for ST

[fervent jasper]

Seems a little overboard imo

[drifting cloud]

its not that impactful on st even, on st you lose alot more from traits not your actual stats

[rigid mango]

It's really not

Sin is so stat reliant

Crit value for EB, Mastery for ttk, vers for everything

They're all really high value, haste is fuckall

There's ways to "cheat" haste, like I do with ench/op/lucid minor

But there's no valid reason to take haste on consistant aoe pulls

[fervent jasper]

I'm running an op as well and lucid minor

[rigid mango]

Because about 6-7 GCD's in, your entire stat is worth 0

[fervent jasper]

Still feels hella energy starved on the boss

[rigid mango]

I mean, that's sorta sin normally anyways

[past marten]

Well, you obviously won't feel like 'raid trait' sin

[fervent jasper]

I'm running with 40% crit, 35% mastery, 11 or 12% haste (cant remember but i have like 670 haste) and 2% vers

[past marten]

Sin felt way slower in 8.1 than it does now, so I'm kind of used to it

[rigid mango]

I run literally only neck haste

[fervent jasper]

I have a 455 socketed underrot ring so

I'm gunna have some haste

[rigid mango]

I'll literally pick anythinf that doesn't have haste

Over something that does

[fervent jasper]

But this ring has a lot of mastery too

[rigid mango]

But it also has haste

[fervent jasper]

My best alternative is a 435 unsocketed crit vers ring

[rigid mango]

I prefer not running a stat that is effectivly afk for 80% of a run

[past marten]

The essence of your discussion is why I still play Outlaw in M+

It's easier to maintain outlaw as offspec than gearing sin for both m+ and raids

[fervent jasper]

Ya when I switched I didnt expect to beat outlaw on trash but I thought I could pump bosses

This low haste thing makes that not even doable compared to other classes

[rigid mango]

Sin can easily out dps outlaw

Issue is how much "hidden" value they have in utility

[echo cargo]

Haste is traaaaaaaaash

[rigid mango]

I mean

On a tyr like

17 ad? I pumped 45k end if fight 1st boss

Haste isn't worth as much as you think, it's more about feel

[fervent jasper]

Its worth using 2 mutilates when you might only be able to use one

[past marten]

45k with 2EB and superlow haste?

[rigid mango]

2/2/2 yah

Iris lucid

Peaked 76k in opener

[past marten]

Sounds a little rngsus to me

[rigid mango]

Obv

[fervent jasper]

I mean if the consensus is it's a bad stat then I wont argue with that but I definitely think this makes sin in m+ even less competitive with outlaw

Because now they dont even do insane boss damage

[drifting cloud]

I think you overvalue haste on st way too much

[fervent jasper]

Maybe

[drifting cloud]

like I said its the traits not actual stats

[rigid mango]

You pool and play around tb even more

[echo cargo]

Haste is king on ST but not to the point where crit or mastery is bad

[fervent jasper]

What traits should I have that I dont have?

[rigid mango]

It's just way more punishing

For missplays

[echo cargo]

Crit and mastery are still super valuable

[rigid mango]

Haste isn't really a king anymore

Ess kill it off

[fervent jasper]

Lucid dreams is overvalued if anything

[past marten]

?

[fervent jasper]

You'll still feel more starved with it then a flat stat boost

[past marten]

The minor is insane for sin, not sure what you mean

[rigid mango]

Lucid minor is valued highly for ST

[civic palm]

Haste is king for ST.

[rigid mango]

And works for lower target too

And even in heavy aoe, oops vers proc why not

[civic palm]

heh

[fervent jasper]

It doesn't replace a flat stat boost though. You can get lucky on your procs and not be GCD locked quite as long every once in a while

But it still feels slow

[rigid mango]

Yeah but you're missinf the point

Stats are worth a lot for sin

[sour wasp]

@civic palm O _o

[past marten]

You're deep in the feelycraft territory my man

[civic palm]

Get your eyes outta here.

[rigid mango]

Haste is literally useless for a majority of a dungeon

[sour wasp]

ecks dee

[rigid mango]

You replace it with somethinf worth in more situations

And also, good stats

[past marten]

If a flat stat boost was superior, worldvein would outperform it on st sim.. Even with 5 users it doesn't.

[rigid mango]

Uhh

A bit untrue, but sure

[fervent jasper]

So how do you handle it on a boss fight when your vendetta falls off and your burst calms down and you're waiting seconds between abilities?

My damage drops like a rock

[rigid mango]

You pool correctky

Play the slow ass spec that sin is

[civic palm]

Your damage is going to drop by 20% when you lose the +20% DMG > _>

[past marten]

I haven't seen any 45k+ sim where worldvein gets close to lucid minor, so how is it untrue @rigid mango ?

[rigid mango]

No one sims with wv

[fervent jasper]

Yeah no kidding mezerok

[rigid mango]

Because it's not a realistic sim

[civic palm]

fff

[rigid mango]

R3 wv is maybe the most broken minor in the game

If you can have unrealistic uptime

[past marten]

What does the sim do wrong then? I took it at face value until now

[rigid mango]

But thanks to niche uses, no one cares about it

It doesn't, people just don't sim it

[civic palm]

SIM does most things "wrong".

[fervent jasper]

Wait wait I'm still very confused

[rigid mango]

Lucid major + wv minor is probably the highest simming thing in the game for sin

[fervent jasper]

If ludoc outperformed a stat boost then why do you feel energy starved with low haste and lucid but not with haste and no lucid?

It may be true but from experience it sure doesnt feel like it

[past marten]

Well, I simmed myself and a couple others who postes here and it was at least 300 dps behind with a clf major and 5 wv users

[rigid mango]

Yeah but lucid needs a lot of stat shifts

You drop a bunch of haste for other shit

[civic palm]

Yeah you have to drop/gain a shit ton of haste.

[rigid mango]

It's not as simple as pick and replace

[civic palm]

This is a primary issue with SIMs atm, your context is whack.

[rigid mango]

You need to understand why shit is not just take sims for facevalue

Or you're gonna have a baaad time

[fervent jasper]

So I'd do more ST if I dropped more haste even though my issue is being energy starved?

[past marten]

Just because you're energy starved doesn't mean your dmg sucks @fervent jasper

[civic palm]

lulgetouttahereWV

That's with TEN stacks.

[sour wasp]

or just sim the stat shift too, meaning enchants gems blah blah when you sim essences

[empty tide]

Energy starve doesnt necessary means less dps

[rigid mango]

You just need to pool correctly

[past marten]

Will do, but I'm still not convinced that it will outperform clf + lucid

[rigid mango]

M+ ST is all around EP and TB poolinf

[civic palm]

It doesn't, even with the right stats.

[rigid mango]

It might need very specific stats, but I'm fairly sure you can reach/surpass clf + lucid given super unrealistic circumstances in sims

[marble elm]

clf

[rigid mango]

Night

[past marten]

Agi sims low and font probably devalues it even more :D

[marble elm]

clf major was equal to blood major for me until the most recent apl change

[civic palm]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[marble elm]

hadn't realized that it was sandbagged

like that

[past marten]

Same here, now it's 1k apart

[rigid mango]

Sorry about that

[marble elm]

pretty sure blood is better on the hard fights anyway

[rigid mango]

Myeh

[marble elm]

i haven't simmed 2 blood with 2 vendettas vs 1 clf with 2 vendettas

[sour wasp]

no fight is hard for me

[marble elm]

but i imagine the first one is better

[rigid mango]

Clf on zaq looked pretty funny

37 casts in 30 sec or smth?

[civic palm]

6 second shield uptime 4head

[rigid mango]

Delerium realm bte

[civic palm]

butmuhcrit

[rigid mango]

Btw*

[past marten]

What scenario would that be interesting for night?

[marble elm]

aszhara

last phase being 2:30

ish

[rigid mango]

You'd probs valye 2x blood>1clf

Just for pushing last phase numbers

[civic palm]

just run Vision | Lucid 2head.

[past marten]

In that very specific scenario yes

[rigid mango]

I mean

A lot of bosses have parameters

[sour wasp]

vision lmao

[marble elm]

it also depends on kill times

for every fight

[civic palm]

nothanks

[rigid mango]

And windows where bosses need the danage more

[past marten]

Obviously

[rigid mango]

Just like p3 jaina

Etc etc

[sour wasp]

@civic palm your sims are low anyways are you slackin? O_o

[civic palm]

Yarp.

o _O

[past marten]

Best case is if you can align the 2nd clf with another vendetta

[sour wasp]

O_o

[rigid mango]

Damage gain isn't huge

But yeah

[past marten]

It's there though

[marble elm]

u can also blood the hulk and have it back up for the start of p2

[past marten]

And it feels so good

[rigid mango]

feels

[marble elm]

er no im thinking of something else

i think

[civic palm]

o _o

[past marten]

Yeah, but if it sims a little better and it feels better too

That's the dream

[marble elm]

3 mins cds are a plague
sims are the devil

[civic palm]

:3

[meager nebula]

[civic palm]

1:30min CDs thou

[rigid mango]

I think I prefer using it on cd instead of aligning

Another gcd that feels wasted too close to major cd's 🤢

[sour wasp]

guys i wanna do some heroic parse whoring, how do you do it properly on za qul? just normal vendetta usage or delay for the dmg increase on boss?

[civic palm]

sub 1% gain either way

and you're better off lining it up with boss phases.

@sour wasp Take Vision, do Delirium, be OTL, go by yourself, kill everyone else, extend the fight as long as possible.

[stuck ravine]

@marble elm any quick tips for zaqul?

[past marten]

Still trying to figure out how to play Ashvane.. CLF vs Blood and Font vs Pod

[rigid mango]

0.7% gain to hold on 5 min fight

[sour wasp]

@civic palm vision? O_o

[rigid mango]

Aligns cds that way

If you're on add dutt

[civic palm]

VISION, DO I NEED TO LINK IT?!

Christ O _O

[sour wasp]

im about to barf

when i saw vision

being suggested to me

[civic palm]

Yeah well, get over it.

[sour wasp]

lmao

[civic palm]

Because I've some baaaad news for you.

[marble elm]

cd pull (or dont), first dmg amp, first echo, vendetta 2nd echo if vision minor, cloak when u come out of 1st delirium, cloak early into 2nd, cloak to prolong ur death in 3rd @stuck ravine

[sour wasp]

spit it then

[rigid mango]

O_o

[marble elm]

boss

[civic palm]

Also, Leeching Poison.

[marble elm]

yea

[civic palm]

and not CD.

[marble elm]

take leeching

[civic palm]

Leeching is broken there.

[stuck ravine]

you CD the first amp?

[marble elm]

yea

[stuck ravine]

you dont do it during first delirium in p3?

[marble elm]

i guess u could

idk which is more dmg

u mean the first soaks?

or the first echo

[civic palm]

Also depends on your raid comp. and who they are sending first/second/etc.

[stuck ravine]

i just mean the first 3 circles on the ground when u hit 70%

[marble elm]

im assuming u are taking the first kilrogg soaks and then going down for both echos

[stuck ravine]

yea

[pallid notch]

is Vision of Demise viable on M Ashvane given she stays at a static health percent with the shield?

[marble elm]

yeah u could cd there and it will still be up but idk which is more value

[stuck ravine]

p3 dps is whats important right

to push before 3rd kilrogg soak

[civic palm]

GL

[marble elm]

in p2 yea

[past marten]

Demise is superbad

[marble elm]

that shouldn't be too hard of a check

we lusted in p3 instead and didnt really have issues making that check

[past marten]

I think it still sims worse than most trinkets even on Execute in raidbots

[stable plinth]

pretty sure using CDs on first damage amp is more damage

cause you get stunned when coming out of first kilrogg soak

[marble elm]

yea i would think so as well

[stable plinth]

and you lose uptime

[marble elm]

we had 3 rogues that also saved coral for the 2nd delirium echo so it died before the fear echo

[stable plinth]

i dont even care anyways

im afk in phase 1 so

¯_(ツ)_/¯

you held ur coral until the 2nd echo from the start of the fight?

[pallid notch]

@past marten it does feel bad, was just wondering about ashvane with the static health most of the fight

[marble elm]

yeah it almost perfectly gets you to 100% crit

with that timing

[stable plinth]

i was just gonna hold it for 1st echo

[marble elm]

i used on 2nd because we have vanish for the 1st

[stable plinth]

true dont have it for 2nd

[marble elm]

but we had a demo lock on 2nd and we all had coral so it actually got destroyed

probably not gonna play vop next week

just not needed

use last set of cds on boss after 2nd echo

i also think i should have extracted at first damage amp

from the start of the fight got me 102% crit after extracting on 2nd but i was playing blood so kinda wasted

[past marten]

What rppm was coral on? And is it hasted or not?

[fervent jasper]

Is the lucid major worth taking in m+ for boss fights or does the beam just do too much overall?

[stuck ravine]

when you said cloak when u come out of 1st delirium, are you talking about first delirium in p4 or the first kilrogg one? @marble elm

[marble elm]

first kilrogg one

u just die naturally in the realm and then cloak as soon as u get dispelled

[stuck ravine]

you just eat the first tentacles that spawn right

[marble elm]

on the first one u can just bleed out