Kap
#assassination
spice surge
marble hemlock
BBI is really damn good
bleak spoke
So not only do you get this burst aoe splash from the blade echoes, you get the cp almost guaranteed and more importantly you don’t run into that situation where every envenom is like 30k and you’re reminded of the week after tfd was changed
Big angery
marble hemlock
sub has different issues entirely, i.e. not being able to run NS and being pretty much forced to play sectec
coral tusk
How swirling sands compared to bbi
marble hemlock
worse
bleak spoke
It probably isn’t terrible though
marble hemlock
you cannot get swirling sands on a decent piece
marble hemlock
is the only piece
bleak spoke
I think it’s ss swirling
coral tusk
ye,thats why i'm asking,is it better than sob
marble hemlock
pretty much everything is better than SoB
SoB has the issue of not having a specific use
bleak spoke
Gut feeling says almost certainly better
marble hemlock
it used to be the best way to scale our AoE through CT/fok damage being scaled through agi primarily
but now we have echo, which is just straightup better for that purpose
coral tusk
i see,ty guys
bleak spoke
Like a few weeks ago dayvanie was looking at the dpet on fok with echoes vs rupture and it was over double for fok
Having power on a builder rather than a finisher has to be naturally stronger there’s no way it’s not
umbral fiber
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/aUMbajYbKtuBceHWfyva5C :( close to 23k
marble hemlock
depends on the difference
bleak spoke
I wish HB didn’t feel so janky personally but there’s no denying that it’s decent at least
In pure st with 2 echoes HB foks at full stacks accounts for more % dmg than pbomb for me
mint peak
Getting that first full stack HB on a pack feels so good though
bleak spoke
In a vacuum where you get to pick raid traits to measure pbomb and have to use echoes for HB I’m sure pbomb does better
But that’s just not the case in m+
sharp fulcrum
bleak spoke
You can’t walk into a dungeon with idk, 3DD and some NPs or something that’s depleted af
umbral fiber
Any1 has general tips for conclave fight as sin? I have no logs to provide but I struggle to deal decent DPS in that fight
bleak spoke
Pure ST MA has felt the best on conclave for me
dark crag
Stay on maintarget, spec ib, kidney add if necessary
bleak spoke
Cuz delaying vendetta for vanish if you push fast seems like you can run into a situation where second loa doesn’t have enough hp to vendetta
By the time you can vanish for subt garrotes
umbral fiber
How much DPS do you deal approx?
bleak spoke
Err, just a consistent like 23-25k ST burn basically
When the loa dies the energy regen lets you smoothly transfer dots
And to add to @dark crag ‘s point, ib kidney is energy positive
And higher damage than a raw envenom
arctic socket
For conclave do you want to focus just single target or dot both targets?
dark crag
St
bleak spoke
ST for sure
umbral fiber
Aight, cool thanks. I was barely pulling 18k and felt really bad
We killed them first try so I couldn't try diffrent strats
arctic socket
What ilvl?
umbral fiber
407
bleak spoke
Tbh just hard tunnel the low you’re killing and legit tank the raptors with evasion up and don’t even move
arctic socket
I hold 18k currently as 395 so trying to improve and get better
arctic socket
Hmm what percent of haste seems to play good without being energy starved?
umbral fiber
Also was my first time playing conclave mythic as DPS
bleak spoke
Feels when I argued for like half an hour with @spice surge trying to defend multidotting, tried pure ST like he said and did a million times better 
arctic socket
Like Is their a decent % to aim for?
marble hemlock
more than you can get
spice surge
wat
bleak spoke
Yeah at the start of the tier
bleak spoke
You were like it’s not worth dotting the other loa for energy
And I was so sure that wasn’t true but it was :^)
spice surge
Oh, i thought you meant the other way, thats why i was confused
bleak spoke
Roughly how much do you need seli
marble hemlock
idk, probably something like 50-60%?
mint peak
Need for what. Assa will never be a spam spec
marble hemlock
taht woudl atleast enable 8GCDs during TB with pooling
for actual "no starving" youd need more than twice that
well, maybe not twice, but close to it
bleak spoke
Okay so basically bloodlust at the very end of the expansion innit
arctic socket
I was just meaning a % that made Assassin play smoothly
umbral fiber
anything above 6% LUL
marble hemlock
"smoothly" is subjective, to me it feels smooth at 8%, obviously its better at 20+
umbral fiber
lament dove
it starts to get bad under 15 imho
I guess it's personal pref
I got 17 with food and it still feels clunky on pure ST, it was way better when I had ~20
bleak spoke
I like a little more haste on ST because I’m a bit sloppy when clipping ep and I refresh early in pandemic windows pretty often
umbral fiber
Wish I had a bit more crit 22% seems so low
bleak spoke
I think refreshing a rupture with 4 cp at like 7 seconds is an error, that’s one of my worse habits?
spice surge
Tbh i prefer it when i play with m+ gear, with really slow regen but lots of cp per cast
But then it feels awful when you dont crit
spice surge
Crit isnt very important for ST wulf
bleak spoke
Haste just feels so redundant even with like 3 or 4 targets
primal gazelle
looking at wcl, there's an increasing amount of rogues running HB now 
umbral fiber
so you would say this is a fine balance?
bleak spoke
That’s hella verse heavy
primal gazelle
used to be just me, but now theres a HB log every 3-4 logs
bleak spoke
@primal gazelle you started this disease 
lament dove
^this
arctic socket
HB meaning hidden blades correct?
bleak spoke
Yeh
lament dove
you opened our eyes
bleak spoke
I still refuse to believe that the vast majority of hb damage isn’t padding
But it’s pretty funny on the meter
primal gazelle
pad is life
arctic socket
I mean does HB give assain better aoe?
lament dove
hey, I'm running one TTK^^
bleak spoke
So was 3SE 3Wits weaponmaster so your mileage may vary on mdi builds :^)
primal gazelle
looks like its a very popular choice in the asia region
seeing alot of asian names using hb
umbral fiber
R A C I S T
bleak spoke
So am I tbh
Needs a scale for how asian you are ranging from playing nothing but Master of Shadows to playing nothing but Killing Spree
bleak spoke
oh that run was sick
That’s the one where they face pulled eels and we’re like fk it we’re doing it live right
bleak spoke
I’m glad they won, that was so funny
Won that game, rather, how did the actual results pan out?
Relative to western teams were they faster or slower is my real question tbh
bleak spoke
Ah, pretty excited to see how itll play out
mint peak
Only got to watch a lower bracket match where Skyline was safely in the lead but didn't bloodlust and couldn't kill last boss shrine before phasing and somehow lost by like 2 seconds
dark crag
Diff affixes? I thought mdi is about competition
light kestrel
Anyone know if there's an NP+DD chest?
primal gazelle
east teams had diff affix than west teams
spice surge
@light kestrel Yes from mekka and from m+
primal gazelle
which make sense, otherwise the other region would just practice those specific affixes a week ahead of time
light kestrel
Oh sweet, thanks! My guild won't be killing M mekka anytime soon, do you happen to remember the name of the chest from ML?
mint peak
Also in that same run one of their rogues stood on the Aquasir boss spawn and got knocked off before the fight lol
primal gazelle
East had like.. Raging Fortified Grevious in waycrest, which sounds insanely aids tbh since fortified raging isnt a thing on live servers
dark crag
That raal pull
bleak spoke
Waycrest padding makes me smile
bleak spoke
That’s actually incredibly brave
Yeah necro bursting is definitely scarier
Would you say necro is worst affix for mdi
Danger wise
marble hemlock
everything that limits the amount of mobs you can pull
bolstering as well
necro does that to a degree
primal gazelle
id say explosive is the worst
bleak spoke
I swear explo spawning explo is the dumbest thing
primal gazelle
LOL this is a thing? WM 19
golden relic
imean
primal gazelle
my guy wasnt even top on boss dmg either
golden relic
its simpler then having shrouded traits technically XD
maybe i can play that after getting 6 high altitude turbans from random azerite head
rose perch
that has to be the wrongest set of azerite i've ever seen
primal gazelle
tmrw will be my 6th/last time rolling for the helm before my sub expires 😦
spice surge
I was gonna say
primal gazelle
i better get it, i wanna enjoy 3 ss 3 eb at least once before i retire
wary ice
ur girl xd
primal gazelle
i have flashpowder
3 eb 2 ss 1 ttk
ive gotten every single helm except the cowl
wary ice
the things I'd do for viable Ass rogue m+gear :^(
fringe parcel
garrote rupture garrote w/o lust, garrote x3 rupture with lust right?
tropic ocean
^?_?
rose perch
Why would you Garrote x3 with lust?
tropic ocean
not sure bloodlust will change your opener
rose perch
It's more Garrote Rupture Garrote Single target, Garrote x3 on more than one target
heavy skiff
If i have 6 targets and i know they are gonna live long, is it better to open wirg g g g vanish g g g? Or do i g g g go to normal rotation and vanish when g falls off?
wary ice
Big mongo question:
tropic ocean
I would do ggg fok to poison everything and spread some ruptures actually, and would use ggg vanish to regarrote
wary ice
why do we clip envonom buff?
wary ice
Yeah clippin ep makes sense
but I've been timing envnoms within the last .1 of envnom window when i can
I was doing CoL last night like why
heavy skiff
I just try to clip ep, if i cant then i pool or finish depending on whats worth more
wary ice
🤷 aight thanks
bleak spoke
Huh, opposite for me bullfango. If I envenom I clip ep and I play for mutilates in the buff window and let it drop off if I don’t have the energy to do so
I guess I’ll give extending envenom uptime a try at a dummy and see how it feels o.o
wary ice
I mean
When i hit the mut-mut-env part of the rotaiton how i do it depends on whats going on
like in TB/Vend i just mash them ignoring my uptimes
outside of cds with plenty of energy i will stall for EP (and failing that i will clip env - though as of last night i realize i dont know why i do this)
and if im choked on enrgy i get to 5 cp and then pool to get 2 muts within the EP buff
I think there are likea million different scenarios on how to use it
mint peak
All it comes down to is getting the most buffed Mutilates you can while keeping up your DoTs. Bonus if you get to Envenom while EP is running out, but that mostly only happens with lucky mut crits.
distant lava
that is so big brain azerite setup, you have big aoe and big st, totally broken 
primal gazelle
well you need to spread ruptures before envenoming in aoe..
spice surge
Well no, because you have garrotes
marble hemlock
Gonna take a while to browse through, but just from the get-go looking at the highest simming TTK apl (19.5k for 2ttk+4rupture+env prio) I'm looking at something like this
spice surge
Well mb i looked at the wrong one, thought i clicked the correct one
primal gazelle
pls return the convo to the sub channel where it belogs
strange python
too high IQ for the average assa player
strange python
indeed
marble hemlock
Big props to Koji for doing it
strange python
makes for great content, I just got home, got my warm tea, sipping reading through this
learning a lot
marble hemlock
@wary ice definitely
basically, we do sims to gain knowledge over specific situations that we might find ourselves in
wary ice
for context
marble hemlock
and then use the knowledge of how often these situations happen, or how certain traits behave in different scenarios
to make an informed decision in terms of how we itemize
so say we would be doing a comparison of SS vs EB for AoE
and it would turn out that SS provides the same amount of AoE as EB (which we know it doesnt, but its just to illustrate what im talking about)
vestal wren
i mean you can pull mobs to most bosses
marble hemlock
we would then apply our knowledge of how ss/eb perform on non-aoe situations, i.e. singletarget, and see that SS is the more valuable trait for dungeons
vestal wren
to get higher value of env aoe->st
marble hemlock
ye
well, its a very reaping-specific gameplay, the same applies to outlaw
until reaping happened, no one bothered to find ways to keep trash around for bosses unless they wanted to utilize the sub-rogue prio damage
now we see it more often not just as a time-saving measure, but also because it does allow certain classes to do more boss-dps than if you pulled the boss by itself
wary ice
namely outlaw
marble hemlock
well
outlaw, unholy, eleshaman. frostmage, assa
all benefit from having more than 1 target to boost their prio-damage on the big bhoss
vestal wren
wits for outlaw helped in that (aoe -> st)
golden relic
Sub 
but lets just forget about sub for now..
marble hemlock
outlaw gets more PS procs, ele gets more maelstrom, unholy builds festermight and then uses the highstacks for ST, frostmage gets more frequent frorb resets, assa can use fok over muti as a builder to build more CP
so theres plenty of opportunities there, they just arent as big of a boost as it was for sub prior to its nerf
bleak spoke
@marble hemlock why on earth would the sim do non empowered garrote on another target during Tb window
marble hemlock
thats why, despite most of these situatiosn already being the case before s2 came around, no one pulled extra trash for slightly more boss dps for a mage or a shaman
bleak spoke
Regardless of not setting up the tb with a fok beforehand
marble hemlock
the sim generally prioritizes pandemic-bleed refreshes over anything else
bleak spoke
But if you’re e positive isn’t that a huge hit to your dpet
And a huge waste of energy
Garrote is expensive af
marble hemlock
the apl has to be written in a way where some things take priority over other things. im not too knowledgeable on the coding myself, but the gist of it is that the more "conditional" gameplay moments you want to include, the harder it is to actually write the apl in a way that it actually does that
strange python
@bleak spoke not only does it do non empowered garrote it also does vanish 3 garrotes into a 4th non empowered garrote
marble hemlock
i.e. "prioritize bleeds always. except during TB"
strange python
why would you do a non empowered garote when you're on full cps
with tb running
double wut
bleak spoke
Also if you’re tab garroting the chances you don’t poison are huge
marble hemlock
most of the times when looking through the sample sequence you can actually see why certain abilities were used which shouldnt be used
marble hemlock
simply because of a hardcoded priority that leads to suboptimal gameplay
thats why custom-written APLs are required for anything thats not singletarget, which is the default situation and most priorities are written solely to make the ST sim as accurate as possible
but then apply to multitarget situations as well
i.e. on a 10target pull, you dont vendetta/tb for more aoe damage, yet the apl obviously still uses CDs on, well CD
so youll have to manually remove the vendetta/tb lines from the apl
bleak spoke
Cuz unless something in that has to die, those are super inefficient globals innit
marble hemlock
ye
and its hard to hardcode something like "once you get over x amount of mobs, stop using this CD, or that CD"
because the difference arent the same for every gearset
bleak spoke
Especially if you go back to spreading dots instead of tunneling your vendetta target
marble hemlock
where it might be worth to stop using vendetta for player A at 7targets, someone else may need 9 for it to actually be true
bleak spoke
I imagine it’s even harder to convince the sim to do something like use exsang for the purpose of stabilizing energy etc
vestal wren
The rotation is not hard coded 😉
and the apl adjusts to the situation
marble hemlock
ye exactly. although i remember back in legion we basically hardcoded the opener with shoulders
vestal wren
we never did that
marble hemlock
hm, i recall eleem mentioning doing it since some stuff was getting scuffed
in any case
vestal wren
subtlety had a lot of dependencies, and therefore ppl liked to use a opener sequence macro
iirc 1 or 2 other classes had it in apl
but in general its not good practice and not suggested to be used
vestal wren
subtlety was adaptive
marble hemlock
but as you said, hardcoding stuff is usually a bad idea
esp with a spec thats as volatile as assa when it comes to resource generation
vestal wren
it was just some ppl who where overwhelmed with the opener using a cast sequence macro for it,
btw. that would also mean the rotation would not adjust for procs f.ex. and can be not-optimal
i remember somone did send me a iirc 32 ability cast sequence for opener
marble hemlock
well, its basically just a question to "what problem do you intend to solve by hardcoding a set of the rotation"
is the inaccuracy that will result from not accounting for procs etc. worth it because the problem youre trying to fix is even more of an issue
vestal wren
there is no reason to ever hard code a opener
we showed that quite good with the rogue apl's
marble hemlock
well, sometimes when i look at TB windows, id love to hardcode TB
which isnt possible due to CP gains being different, obviously
vestal wren
you can set dependencies to behave/use abilities due to your expectations
e.g. if you only want to use tb on a certain cp value you can set the condition to the use (e.g. by just putting combo_points>=X& at the beginning of the TB action)
marble hemlock
ye
the problem with TB is mostly the random bleed-refreshes due to bleeds hitting their pandemic timing
well, theyre not random
they happen because a bleed hits their pandemic window 😄
so we get these moments where we have rupture freshes during the last 2sec of a TB when rupture is on 7sec left, when there should be another envenom instead and a delayed rupture refresh
vestal wren
i think the issue there is the additional conditions that might be hard to meat
marble hemlock
but these conditional things are really hard to code afaik
i think tisu tried and gave up after a while
since it usually lead to other things
being messed up
bleak spoke
But in that sense it’s a super obvious error when you play
Like that rupture instead of envenom has to be a loss right
vestal wren
i think playing is often less optimal, as you adjust to certain situations
marble hemlock
so its usually easier to just look at the sample-sequence, see what is being done right/wrong, and then come to a conclusion as to how "inaccurate" the findings are and what that means for the overall results
vestal wren
beeing in a more time sensitive enviroment means you need to consider more things
marble hemlock
ye
well, not accounting for actual misplays, the situations change so often and so quickly, that you cant map out an entire fight with 100% accuracy
vestal wren
you can
but this means you would need to optimize the apl for that fight too
and doing that is quite a effort, esp. since killtimes/etc all varies a lot through groups
marble hemlock
well, i meant that you cant map it out simply because conditions change without you knowing about it beforehand
if i set up for a nother tb burst but then my foks dont crit and i have to refresh bleeds first
bleak spoke
That’s the ultimate problem with simming and m+ though innit, how do you sim “this needs to be blinded and I can’t refresh a dot because of it etc
marble hemlock
leads to me having to adjust my gameplay
vestal wren
i think the apl adjusts very good to m+ sims
it restealths, reacts on mob spawn events
bleak spoke
Like you end up doing so much suboptimal stuff
marble hemlock
which ones were talking about, the dungeon slice one?
marble hemlock
idk, ive never bothered too much with it since the situations happening in that sim arent really representative of the keys im playing
pulls are way too small
bleak spoke
Honestly, depending on dungeon it’s always 6t or 10t 40s or 60s :x
marble hemlock
well, thats solely for aoe
bleak spoke
For me at least
marble hemlock
which isnt every single situation, but yes, we used the multitarget patchwerk sim to get somewhat accurate results for a pure-aoe situation, and then applied those results to our knowledge of how keys play out and how itll affect our itemization
unborn gate
Worth keeping 1xEB for mythic opu?
vestal wren
i dont think the 40s sims are a good measurement
bleak spoke
But say for like high tyrannical fh, I won’t even sim aoe, only thing I care about is 2t 3 mins
vestal wren
iirc serialos did a statistic on m+ and pack/boss ratio, and boss uptime is a bit to high in dungeon slice
marble hemlock
like, i did multitarget patchwerk sims for aoe after removing bl/vendetta/tb usage to get decent statweights for m+
which clearly favors crit/mastery, so applying that to what we know about stats on ST
vestal wren
also koji did a group size evaluation too, and somone else was working on optimizing dungeon slice (forgot who)
marble hemlock
we can then adjust our gear accordingly, depending on what we want to prioritize on
well, in an ideal world we could map out routes for dungeons, the size of each pack, the duration and then adjust the sim itself to more closely match those "reallife" situations
but routes change, so that effort is kind of wasted
vestal wren
iirc koji's approach was to take the recommendet routes from the dungeon tool site and evaluate pack sizes
marble hemlock
ye
the problem with trying to get everything into one big sim
is that you generally want to specialize for one specific type of situation
vestal wren
yes there where quite some discussions too
marble hemlock
and adjust those priorities based on group composition for example
vestal wren
to make a fortified/tyranical sim or similar
bleak spoke
Honestly the more thought goes into this and the more sims run etc the more I’m only certain that I need more crit and that I need enough haste so I get 35 or more energy with 4 dots out. Beyond that it seems like only single target stuff is even remotely accurate :x
Cuz when I take off all my haste stuff it’s real bad, but when I put a ton more on barely anything happens :^)
vestal wren
i think creating a custom fight style will probably help you most
marble hemlock
since youre refreshing bleeds in between, you dont need to sustain 35energy/sec for aoe
vestal wren
bc. it allowes you to specifically adjust for your pulls
bleak spoke
I guess cuz things don’t really die during the duration of the sim until the end right
marble hemlock
eleem/me calculated it once, and ~12% haste gives you enough regen to sustain for over 30seconds
bleak spoke
Unless there’s a way to add dying smallies to rupture in pure aoe
vestal wren
mob duration is variable up to 20% of the time
*random
and you can adjust sim to have mobs survive how you want to
bleak spoke
Does the apl rupture snipe though
marble hemlock
nah
vestal wren
rupture snipe?
bleak spoke
Like a low hp mob
bleak spoke
For the quick refund yeh
marble hemlock
to allow for more GCDs spent on foks instead
vestal wren
hmm i dont think it does
bleak spoke
If anything goes into an assa sim that tries to emulate a dungeon I think that might be one of the most important
Cuz as long as stuff keeps dying you don’t stop blasting, without needing to commit globals to sustaining e
vestal wren
not sure if that actually makes that big of a diffrence overall
ripe nimbus
It doesnt
bleak spoke
It does in prio though doesn’t it
vestal wren
i also dont think it will impact your stat wights to a degree you probably assume it does
in the end atm the weakest point is the fight style
marble hemlock
well, its a big difference on aoe
if the pack doesnt last long
if you set up regularly with multiruptures etc.
you spend GCDs on abilities that wont run full duration, that you only use for energy sustain, which you could also get by just spending a single GCD on a low-hp mob
so the opportunity cost for using all these garrotes in opener or multirupturing have to be weightes against multiple multi-EB FoKs instead
and that is a significant difference on aoe
burst aoe, specifically
spice surge
This is especially relevant on reaping
Since there is a lot of low hp targets you can "feed" of
marble hemlock
ye
i.e. you run TTKs, and then instead of multirupturing for energy sustain on a boss+reaping pull, you just fok>env clap the boss and when you start dropping low on energy, you refill the bar with a single rupture, compared to spending multiple sets of CP on ruptures that you would prefer converting into prio
theres a few situations where this type of gameplay is applicable and preferable
vestal wren
the question then would be how "relevant" damage to reaping mobs is
e.g. if you want to sim your stat wights, should reaping be included?
bleak spoke
I’d say that reaping as it’s pulled in higher keys is more of a resource that classes generate ST off of, or at worst an annoyance that’s cleaved incidentally
Where the mob density’s a vehicle to killing the next pack faster rather than another pack
vestal wren
hmm that comes to a other question
wouldnt it make more sense to seperate that cheese from the regular sim
bc. 90%+ of the m+ players will not rly benefit from having that fight style
bleak spoke
That’s the thing though, either for most m+ players it’s a pack that has to be killed as fast as possible
Or for some it’s priority target damage generator that might have a time limit before it’s too disruptive
Also there’s the issue where some readings are legitimately dangerous (shrine 1st reap) while some are hilariously easy padfests (underrot second boss room reaps)
marble hemlock
definitely fuu
bleak spoke
But no matter the scenario it’s hard to say it’s fair to include it in dungeon slice
Cuz of the skew
marble hemlock
like, when i recommend traits and talk about TTK, i always disclaim that it works for me due to the level of keys were doing and the size of the pulls, but theres plenty of evidence that for general pugs, SS is simply the strongest trait by far
small pulls, times between pulls for the healer to drink, no reaping with bosses etc.
means you get good SS value and plenty of restealths
3RS and hope it doesnt bug
LULW
bleak spoke
Or hope it bugs in the good way? :^)
marble hemlock
:^)
vestal wren
yes i think its fair to have dungeon slice to represent the average dungeon
rather have a seperate/custom fight script to help high m+ players
bleak spoke
So like, a boss, a reap, a pack of 3 and a pack of 5 or something like that?
marble hemlock
well, id say that most high-end m+ players or even raiders for that matter, can rewrite the sim themselves if they want to check for something more specific
or use the less-representative results of other sims and apply those results to their situation and somewhat accurately gauge the margon if error that results from the different gameplay/pulls
vestal wren
i think only a small part of the community and top end raiders does anything custom
marble hemlock
ye
vestal wren
so i would not say "the majority"
marble hemlock
so making a sim that applies to those as well isnt really worth the effort
bleak spoke
Is there anything necessarily wrong with a dungeon slice sim that reports reaping and normal dungeon stuff separately
marble hemlock
i mean, "most highend m+ players" is a very small group still 😄
vestal wren
i think the majority does see the sim a estimate not as "perfect perfect"
marble hemlock
ye
vestal wren
and thats probably fair
marble hemlock
at some point its better to accept the limitations of the sim, and apply your own game and class knowledge to adjust the result accordingly
i.e. if eb/ss are on even footing for aoe but i pull bigger, i know that EB will gain more value than SS
strange python
People could play the game before you could sim, imagine playing the game that way again
😃
vestal wren
well sims are sth that helps you witht he game, you still need to play yourself
e.g. sims are very good for gearing
bleak spoke
At first I was so hyped when I outhit my dungeon slice sim but now it seems to be less and less relevant
vestal wren
current dungeon slice needs another iteration
marble hemlock
theres people that just feelycraft, theres people that just simcraft, and then theres people who use their experience and the sim-results and apply their own understanding of the game to make a decision thats about as informed as it can get
id say 9/10 times, the last type wins out
vestal wren
i think you explicitly try to draw a line between sim and game
when in practice you can use a sim to evaluate if sth is worth or not
ofc if you want to invest the time into actually doing apl
your ingame experience can help improve the sim and vice versa
marble hemlock
ye
i mean at the end of the day its just a model, and models have limitations in order to apply to a wider area of situations
so its just about knowing the limitations of the sim to be able to use the results appropriately for teh specific situation you might be in
sometimes that means taking the results at face value because it accurately depicts the situation youre in
other times that means adjusting for the deviations you will be seeing from the sim to the realworld situation
vestal wren
only using sim results and not looking why or what the sim does is just one directional.
strange python
Yea, but theres people that treats their sim like the holy bible and end up worse for it. Sims is nothing more than a rough guesstimate imho
marble hemlock
yep
well, its not a rough guesstimate
its gonna give very accurate results for what it specifically aims to simulate
vestal wren
i think how valuable a sim or simc in general is for you depends on your knowlage of the tool
marble hemlock
the question is, is "what it specifically aims to simulate" something that occurs in game or not, and if not, how different is it gonna be
in any case, it requires a basic understanding of what the sim does, i.e. knowing what priorities are included within the APL
vestal wren
e.g. you wont know how to fly a boing without learning it
and therefore the boing will have no use for you
dungeon slice is a rough estimate of m+
strange python
Sure, for a generic purpose the sims might hold higher value in accurace than in specific situations.
vestal wren
but i assume thats common knowlage
strange python
Theres so much that can happen a sim cant take into account, and people tend to forget that
vestal wren
it can
strange python
"But my sim says 27k, and im only doing 25k this fight wtf?"
marble hemlock
it could, theoretically, account for that
marble hemlock
but it requires very elaborate coding and phrasing to accurately describe the potential "outliers" of situations that can happen
and thats not really worth it
vestal wren
not rly
fight stcrips are just events you put in, apl is already farily well optimized
marble hemlock
then why does the TB window still suck?
is there no condition for how to behave within TB windows?
to disregard the overarching prio of refreshing bleeds?
vestal wren
a lot of opimizations that are thought to be better
are in fact no win
so the argument (not exclusively this one) "but the sim does y diffrent!, so it cant be good" is very vague
vestal wren
besides that the impact of minor diffrences has in the majority of cases minor impact on the outcome
marble hemlock
when you say "its easy to account for these things"
its just surprising for the TB issue to persist throughout so many revisions
vestal wren
are you sure it is an issue?
marble hemlock
(not meaning to shit on the people who are doing the work btw, just genuinely curious)
bleak spoke
Why is it they do? Is it variance in the cp gen from muti
vestal wren
and i know tisu does that also a lot, its easy to point fingers
but it does not help to blindly say sth is wrong
marble hemlock
refreshing a 7sec duration rupture during the last second of TB instead of casting another envenom and refreshing the rupture at 2sec instead
is not an assumption to be a dps gain
strange python
Im not disregarding the usefulness of Sims, and the work put on it. Mad props to the people who have the drive to do it. This whole conversation just brings up memories from the old EJ forum back in the day. Where it was like "If math says X it cant be Y". And sometimes same mentality about sims apply today
vestal wren
thats not the point
the point is, if you are unsure about why and how
take the time and actually look at it
rather then blindly complaing
the tc community is not your enemy 😉
marble hemlock
im not blindly complaining. im complaining very specifically about an issue?
as have many people before me
strange python
I wasnt complaining about the community of the work behind it, more so voicing a frustration over people using the tools provided wrongly sometimes. And how it gets tiresome 😃
marble hemlock
i would love to do more personal work on sims/apls myself, but i have neither the knowledge nor the patience to actually dive into it
but it shouldnt be seen as a personal attack on the entire TC community whenever someone questions something about the APL/sims in general or points out issues
vestal wren
you repeat your question about a specific case that might be insignificant
and ask why this issue persist in many revisions
thats a very directed complain
marble hemlock
"might be insignificant"
neither you nor me know how insignificant it is, until we have a direct comparison of the current state and the suggested one
surreal torrent
--> let's just assume it is super significant then 👍
tidal jetty
on cooldown
marble hemlock
thats not really what ive been doing though mystler?
wary ice
@wild walrus IDK what trinket that is but generally on cd is the answer
Trinkets arent on the GCD (ont he whole but specifically the one you're talkinga bout)
tidal jetty
if its 2min, delay the second use to sync with vendetta
wary ice
u use it on cd, every other (ie: 1st and 3rd) will line up with vendetta
vestal wren
i made a quick sim for TB to somewhat contribute
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/941HToqXQCFPCTPLkm3FEE
its very simple change and does not give any benefits
wary ice
Isnt the condition dont rupture if tb is sub3, and rupture is over 6?
spice surge
Well yeah, rupture uptime dropped by 1%
vestal wren
yes bc. it dropped the refreshed in the last 3 secs of tb
spice surge
?
marble hemlock
well yeah
vestal wren
the deay of TB just did not use tb if rupture wouldnt last long enough
marble hemlock
thats not really what we're talking about when we mean "it prioritizes refreshing bleeds over casting envenom within TB"
night vale
anyone got suggestion how to shaodwstep easy oin mekka? i was using a target of target macro, but interewsted to see what you all did
spice surge
Shadowstep the boss after every tp
marble hemlock
basically the situation ingame would be like: rupture within pandemic window, tb 2sec left, i have 5cp. i then ahve to account for whether i will drop rupture if i cast envenom now, which is related to my energy/cp gain over the next couple of second, and weighing that vs casting envenom instead of rupture to get another TB buffed envenom
marble hemlock
@night vale if the boss jumps to a location thats different than its start, you can just step on the boss midflight
if it jumps onto the same position it started from, so when a melee was the target of a jump for example, youll have to step outside by choosing a friendly player, so a macro might not be reliable in every single case
spice surge
I find the most reliable thing to just be shadowstepping the boss before you get knocked up
Which does mean that you have to move out of his "jumping up circle"
but you have like 1.5s to do that, and its not very big
marble hemlock
oh yeah, that works as well i guess
ive always waited until i was on the descent again and stepped boss, or a flag/player
if youre quick and step immediately after getting knocked up, you just run out of the circle with the bonus-speed from the step
(some decent reactiontime required tho^^)
marble hemlock
well, everyone else has to run out so it shouldnt really matter who you step on
marble hemlock
ye
night vale
tbh i set a macro to target the target of the boss, usually a tank, and step to that
hollow stone
Which is why i do tank
night vale
but my tank ran to africa
hollow stone
Tanks can get gigavolt and need to run
marble hemlock
like, everyone in raid moves out, so if youre stepping to anyone youre safe (unless they fuck up)
hollow stone
But one will always be without giga
marble hemlock
the issue is usually with peopel who run further out for positionings sake
and suddenly youre out of range, and the macro cant help you anymore
a mouseover step macro would probably be the best option
vestal wren
oh sry missunderstodd it
blissful tide
I just look down and see who is around the large circle just barely and shadow step to them
vestal wren
moment
marble hemlock
or talk to someone in raid who knows to position themselves for your step
i did that in legion with an enhancer of ours
he was my anchor, basically 😄
so i could dps longer on krosus/vari
and he knew to stay within step-range
marble hemlock
😄
marble hemlock
order of the cloud serpent
none
you get a targeting circle where you wanna place it
bleak spoke
Do you have to drop it beforehand or
bleak spoke
Oh so you can mouseover macro it and then step instantly at range?
Or do you have to actually plant it before you’re in a scenario you need to step
Rather how far can you plant the flag*
bleak spoke
Definitely gonna go get one, seems super clutch
noooooo man, what is this pokemon minigame i have to do for this
marble hemlock
you just need the rep
you can get those by gathering eggs
just google the locations
takes like 10mins
since no one is doing it anymore
bleak spoke
o, god bless
strange python
!wa
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination WA's for BFA:
https://wago.io/HJUbINlV7 (Mizerok's Group)
https://wago.io/E1EB91OtM (Lokkek's Group)
https://wago.io/SyLUNGD4X (Sovv's Group)
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)
vestal wren
i think this should resolve the refresh, still not a win
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/pNDnPvfQc7BrCVL3sNeuMY/simc
i added (!debuff.toxic_blade.up|dot.rupture.remains<=debuff.toxic_blade.remains)
to the rupture actions
primal gazelle
i wonder why that is
marble hemlock
0.9% less rupture uptime?
spice surge
What seems to happen is that instead of refreshing rupture during tb it waits till after tb is ended to refresh in some cases
vestal wren
hmm
yes bc. it probably has not enough cp for a finisher
could potentially change stuff
not sure what you would to ingame to prevent that?
not using finisher for last 3 secs and use rupture after?
marble hemlock
so basically it doesnt cast the extra envenom and instead just waits with the rupture refresh until after tb so the condition is still met?
vestal wren
no
it casts a env instead
if its on full cp
the condition basically says:
(dont care if tb is up | dont use rupture if rupture duration is higher then toxic blade buff duration)
marble hemlock
shouldnt result in less rupture uptime tho, should it?
spice surge
http://piclair.com/data/2qeo0.jpg
You can see that it could've used an envenom with 0.2s left on TB, but instead it waited 0.4s to rupture
marble hemlock
when was the previous rupture cast?
vestal wren
yes it could delay rupture due to "no cp"
spice surge
It has 5cp after the 1:52 cast
spice surge
1:29
marble hemlock
.8
so yeah, 1:29
well, it wouldve dropped rupture
if it envenomed there
cause it wouldnt have been able to build another 4cp in the time that the rupture had left?
vestal wren
its interessting to have similar dps with shorter rupture uptime
marble hemlock
ye
well i mean, its kinda obvious that as long as it works out and you dont lose rupture uptime, it is in fact a dps increase to use envenom over rupture during TB
vestal wren
but i guess TB makes up a bit there
marble hemlock
thats not groundbreaking discovery really
spice surge
In almost all cases the sim refreshed rupture right after the tb window ended
Because rupture is 24s and tb cd is 25s
marble hemlock
ye
spice surge
So if you could align them better to begin with, it would be less odd
vestal wren
XD its not a fix
spice surge
But idk how to do that
marble hemlock
well, if we could find the issue for the rupture drop
vestal wren
just a try to make it behave diffrent
marble hemlock
im pretty sure we would see a dps increase
over the default
reminds me of the sim i did a month ago comparing 3+ to 4+, during/outside of tb
vestal wren
the rupture drop issue is bc. of the TB change
marble hemlock
and saw lower average for 3+, but higher max
vestal wren
thats why i asked how you would do it ingame
marble hemlock
well yeah, but the point is to do it in a way that you benefit from having additional envenoms within TB, without dropping rupture
vestal wren
rather "pool" during tb window? or let rupture fall after tb window?
i can try to refine it a bit
marble hemlock
thats the entire point of discussion, really. to have the rupture priority still in place to ensure the maximum uptime possible, but utilize the situations where you can afford to envenom once more despite being within pandemic window, to get more TB buffed envenoms
vestal wren
but by refining i basically would allow rupture during tb in the next step
marble hemlock
which is something we do all the time while playing, basically
vestal wren
like with very low duration
marble hemlock
but is something thats not reflected in the sim
(because i was under the assumption that refining to apl to emulate the gameplay behaviour without creating other issues somewhere else is hard to do, for something that we ultimately know is a dps increase anyway)
marble hemlock
having TB windows without ruptures unless theyre necessary to not lose uptime seems to be quite a bit more advanced without creating other issues somewhere else
and that was my original point
anyway
vestal wren
the main issue i see is that i would need to delay stuff to make that work
marble hemlock
ye
it probably goes hand in hand with pooling
which opens up another can of worms basically
so its far more than just one changed line to make it work the way we want ^^
inland stump
hey guys, I got a shoulder piece with EB on
but i ahve BIS shoulders atm
should i change azerite piece just for the EB trait while doing m+?
is it worth?
ruby idol
Seli your brain is expanding very rapidly rn, pls be careful
marble hemlock
depends on the other piece you have right now
nah daddy
gotta find the 3+ vs 4+ comparison again
cause there was some interesting stuff in there
royal lantern
seli brain meme when?
inland stump
well its the gorak tul shoulders i ahve now
inland stump
well I need to get EB traits for m+
inland stump
but its on a shoulder piece and the shoulders i have now are the gorak tul ones
marble hemlock
gimme a min to find the sim
vestal wren
yes EB is the best t1 talent
inland stump
so its worth to use the weaker azerite piece just for the EB trait?
vestal wren
nvm
inland stump
i cant undestand what that oinks says
marble hemlock
but the deviation from the mean
is bigger on the max end
than on the min end
comapred to the 4+ one
vestal wren
yes, might be better for gambling logs
diffrence is minimal
so might be worth to do
vestal wren
sub had also a bit of gambling
marble hemlock
but on the max it seems like theres some iterations where it just seemed to "click" for much better result
having 700higher max variation while being 200 less mean
just seems odd to me
so my conclusion was that theres probably some situations where going 3+ over 4+ is a reliable dps increase
but its hard to figure out exactly what the situations are where thats the case
vestal wren
marble hemlock
ye
idk, that just looks... weird to me, and i suppose might give some credence to using 3+ in very specific situations to increase DPS
vestal wren
i would re-sim it
marble hemlock
or, just super lucky
marble hemlock
mh ye
vestal wren
min/max can vary a bit, so just to be sure
marble hemlock
ye
also not the best idea to sim with mekka trinket
how is that trinket handled anyway, does it start at 0 or 6 stacks?
or is it random cycle every time
vestal wren
good question
marble hemlock
tbf, the difference between 3+ and 4+ seemed much lower than i anticipated
vestal wren
i assume both options are relevant?
marble hemlock
just wanted to know whether it always started at same value
or whether its randomized, because that definitely can skew the results for min/max
since an ideal opener would have you on an uptick with 3stacks on pull, so you get 6stacks and keep it at 6 during first TB
and ye, with 100k iterations i get the same deviation from the mean on 3+ and 4+
or, well, close to it at least 😄
vestal wren
the max seems to be lower or equal
marble hemlock
150 difference at max, 250mean, 300max
vestal wren
might be not worth then
marble hemlock
not sure if i would call that significant enough to warrant diving into the specifics
but i could see some specific circumstance where 3+ is better than 4+ for whatever reason
vestal wren
ofc, and if you can filter/isolate that condition you will likely see an overall increase
marble hemlock
like getting a 4cp rupture which desyncs your rupture from your regular TB intervals and leads to delaying TB and/or having rupture within TB
i wouldnt even know how to start trying to isolate the gains from the losses between those 2 sims
vestal wren
not sure what you changed for +3/+4
marble hemlock
just actions.direct=envenom,if=combo_points>=3+talent.deeper_stratagem.enabled
vestal wren
but in the end you can just do sth like
3+(condition that only applies with 4)
or
4-(condition that only applies for +3)
vestal wren
dots are handled seperatly iirc
marble hemlock
think the difference for rupture was noticeable enough that i kept it at 4+
vestal wren
oh nvm
marble hemlock
nvm its
marble hemlock
actions.dot+=/rupture,cycle_targets=1,if=combo_points>=3
as well
so its 3+ for both
i looked at the NS one which remained at 4 but doesnt matter for this comparison 😄
i also did 3+ env or and 3+ rupture only but those were both each worse than a combined 3+ for both
vestal wren
but it makes sense for ns i guess
marble hemlock
ye, but who plays NS 😄
marble hemlock
i think the surprising part about the 3+ and 4+ one was that while EP uptime went up for 3+, as expected
envenom uptime in 4+ was higher than 3+
didnt expect that
but ye, first thing would probably be to isolate all procs that could skew the max/min results
like trinkets, enchants
DD even
would be much easier if i could just look at the max only 😄
as in, the highest-dps iteration for each sim 😄
vestal wren
max one is just "tons of luck"
marble hemlock
well yeah, but that still goes for both right
marble hemlock
so comparing the luckiest ones for both, there still seems to be a slight edge for 3+
vestal wren
3+ max has 29072
4+ max has 29229
marble hemlock
thats why i said it'd be easier to isolate the cause for that if i could just look at a single iteration instead of the averaged out batch 😄
vestal wren
so 4+ has a edge there
marble hemlock
nah i meant
compared to
the difference on the min/mean level
4+ is higher on all 3, but by how much is different on the min/mean/max
and not just relatively to the dps achieved
vestal wren
3 - 4
max: -157
median: -245
min: -327
marble hemlock
yep
vestal wren
so overall it seems 4 wins
marble hemlock
youd expect the difference between 3+ and 4+ to be larger on the max-end, not the min tho
vestal wren
i think then more iteration you have then closer it gets in general
marble hemlock
instead it seems that 3+ is "catching" up if it gets luckier
without knowing what "lucky" entails, since im gonna assume that trinket/enchant procs are evening out over that many iterations
might just be that it just got doublecrits and still managed to do 4+ finishers most of the time anyway
🤷
vestal wren
ofc
solar rose
fuu and seli your both beautiful
nimble tartan
Now I know to finish 4+ ty
marble hemlock
😄
wouldnt be surprised to see a shift once we hit higher crit-levels
similar to end of legion where 3+rupture was actually better
cobalt gyro
was that to avoid overcapping with crits
because it was reasonable to assume you'd crit
marble hemlock
well, when basically every mut is 3cp
you could eventually swap to EP instead of MP
alacrity
and just do >90% uptime on envenom/ep
wanton swan
Does the poison application buff from envenom benefit single target damage? I'm wondering if there's any benefit to spacing them out, or if it's only worthwhile to monitor EP.
hollow stone
@vestal wren @marble hemlock can you guys plz summarize this entire discussion in one sentence or less? Appreciate it
vestal wren
the last discussion:
using finisher on 3+ seems to be not beneficial compared to 4+ even tho it initially showed a higher variance
hollow stone
Oh shit you actually did it. And with grace. ❤️
marble hemlock
and the differnece between 3+ and 4+ is very minor, so dont feel ashamed if youre forced into a 3cp rupture due to poor planning, its not the end of the world
hollow stone
I would have also accepted "scroll up, ass"
wanton swan
Is it better to overlap envenom with EP for the 10% increased envenom damage, or is it better to wait until the pandemic range of envenom to keep the buff up longer?
hollow stone
Ideally at the last possible second WITHIN the ep buff
spice surge
You shouldnt really pay too much attention to EP
Because yeah, clipping EP is great
But if you do it at 40 energy and you can only get 1 mutilate of with envenom
So when you have a lot of energy its good to clip it, but when your low on energy its often times better to not clip it and wait
And in the end, the difference is very tiny
vestal wren
iirc last time i checked playing for EP was not worth in the sim
spice surge
^
wary ice
yeesh
vestal wren
the EP logic became rather simple in bfa compared to legion
wary ice
what is worth it in the sim :^(
vestal wren
the reason is quite obvious, you have less resources (compared to legion) so you already play well around EP even without optimizing it
wanton swan
But I assume it is best practice to time consecutive envenoms to clip the end of EP if your energy management allows it, maximizing uptime of EP and still getting the 10% on your envenom.
vestal wren
its good practice to aim for a good uptime
wanton swan
👌
vestal wren
but keep an eye on your resources to not waste some
fluid kraken
hey guys im new here may i have some questions pls :/
after whole rotation with toxic blade what im i suppose to do? because my dps drops amazingly because i dont know what to do after this.. and about azerites traits what should i aim for ?
civic palm
!guide
Your damage will drop to you sustained DPS after you are out of damage amplification.
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination Guide: http://www.ravenholdt.net/assassination-guide/
vestal wren
wowhead guide is also good
fluid kraken
i did read the guide very carefully just after the rotation should i do it over again from start? and how? when vanish is on CD .. i should do like 18k dps with my rogue 408 ilvl and im like 10k dps XD in raid
lone junco
did you apply your poisions
fluid kraken
deady poisions
bleak spoke
open up warcraft logs and see what people are doing for certain raid fights
woven summit
Hello
lone junco
atomic willow
woven summit
I currently roll with 3x nothing personal and i'm pretty satisfied with the dps i'm doing. However, i simmed today that if i replace 2x nothing personal with 1x double dose and 1x threacherous covenant i'll do 1.7% more dps.
Should I go for it?
I'm afraid that it won't translate that well in reality.
atomic willow
atomic willow
i am doing 3NP ,2 DD 1 SS for my ST build
wanton swan
See what it aims without TC. If it's close you can just take 1 dd
woven summit
yeah without the TC it's like 0.7% dps
storm pilot
wats our stat prio in m+?
woven summit
hope some azerite drops in chest though
wanton swan
Pvp?
woven summit
stat prio for keys outlaw? guess haste?
wanton swan
Weekly chest doesn't drop azerite. You have to use titan residuum to buy azerite.
woven summit
really?
so that's why I have no azerite in chest lmao
I remember last season there was azerite in chest
guess they changed it with titan residium
i already gambled on one peace and got gore-splattered chest which is pretty neat for assassination
I don't want to gamble now because i have the feeling i'll get shit
for a different peace
Here's the traits i run at the moment
Guess I only need new shoulders with DD and i'm gucci
I might gamble on new shoulders
Or even better, try to get the ones from Jade
they have DD and treacherous covenant
spice surge
Gorak tuls shoulders are significantly better than the jadefire ones
Because overwhelming power is miles better than anything else in that row
And blightborne is better than treacherous by a fair bit as well
But yes, try to get either/both
woven summit
I see treacherous covenant sims better than Blightborne
according to Bloodmallet
But maybe the other ones are better because of overwhelming power
spice surge
Bloodmallet compared 0 traits VS 1 trait of each
If you have 5 other traits
Instead of 0, then things that increase those other traits are more valueable
Agi does literally nothing for those other traits, while blightbornes 19% crit proc will make them do a lot more
Sim it for yourself
tiny finch
I see some guides saying to pool some energy for moments of high dmg
is there a energy treshold to pool?
or does it varies from time to time depending on cds available?
for ex, im testing delaying envenon for 100 energy so i can fit 2 more evenons on the Elaborate Planning window
with all bleeds on target already ofc
and delaying toxic blade for 3 seconds as well
spice surge
You should try to delay TB as little as possible, preferably not at all
tiny finch
like this, i got 115 energy and im preparing myself to use toxic blade plus those envenons with full combo points
'full' if possible, if not ill do it with 4
So @spice surge the only time i'll not press is if with full Combo points right
dont delay even 2- 3 seconds for elaborate planning?
spice surge
Elaborate planning is not something you play around most of the time
tiny finch
aaah
spice surge
You TB even if you have full combo points
Because you want envenoms inside tb, not before
tiny finch
so no delay whatsoever
woven summit
that's a good tip, if i'm full combo points i always delay toxic blade
spice surge
1 combo point is essentially 20% of an envenom
tiny finch
untill i spent my CBs
spice surge
There are no specific numbers no
unborn gate
So when TB is on CD you pool around 70% energy I'd say
tiny finch
since it has a 30 sec cd
110 ish then
and should i pool energy for the second vendetta as well?
use the same logic for TB?
like, said 70%
then vendetta - TB - normal rotation
unborn gate
Well yeah, careful not to overcap with vendetta tho.
grand fossil
hey, I've currently got 405 Cowl, 405 Tentacle Laced Spaulders and 415 Cephalohide, (so I'm able to run 3 DD) I'll have enough next reset for another 415 - but not sure what to spend - I could go for a Gorak Tul's but realistically chances are low....Or do I wait for another ~10 resets to buy. :/
unborn gate
Doesn't need to be an exact number :p
unborn gate
I'd gamble @grand fossil
grand fossil
tempting @unborn gate
unborn gate
And chances of getting shoulders without a good trait is pretty low too.
grand fossil
Yeah, had the same thought about helm - just hasnt dropped - okay, I'll roll Shoulders...at worst ill have an OS 415.
unborn gate
Can you even get bad shoulders? 😄
tiny finch
is believe pistoleer's would be a not so great one to get
ignore the options i picked
unborn gate
It's an okayish trait, but yeah I guess that one was pretty bad :p
tiny finch
OH twist the knife
grand fossil
watch me get it @unborn gate
spice surge
Those are amazing for m+, not very optimal for ST
tiny finch
good luck mate
unborn gate
Unlss you play M+ then it's good. SS, EB
unborn gate
Bah, Outlaw.