meh
#assassination
spice surge
Technically its 3 to keep poisons up and 4 for damage @severe current
golden relic
like dont use galecallers just cuz it sims better if u cant use it
spice surge
Fok is just a bad spell unless you've got EB traits
solid nova
@full pagoda Swapping your trinkets is clearly not the priority here, listen to the feedback Eleem is giving you
full pagoda
I am
solid nova
Its a much larger factor
full pagoda
It just sounds like panic mistakes one after another which drags down the log
severe current
@spice surge thats what i read in the guide, but how does it change with eb traits?
solid nova
Consistently not second potting isnt a panic mistake
golden relic
Why do you panic though, I get what your saying I did that alot in the past when i raided
but its litterally nothing worth panicing over lol
brisk forge
Know the fights and parses will come with that. And the kill time can matters, use your cds at right time etc
full pagoda
The more I try to make it better, the worse it gets
brisk aurora
what ancelm said
golden relic
Just think ahead like 10 seconds all the time and u wont ever panic
whats happening next, what am i doing, where am i going
brisk forge
You're to into parses...
full pagoda
Yes I am xD
brisk forge
Chill with that and focus on the right stuff first
full pagoda
Too obsessed tbh
golden relic
if you are looking into getting into a good guild aswell , idk what your end goal of a rank of a guild is
severe current
Aight, that comes closer to my observations. Is the dungeon slice simulation accurate enough to give useful results for traits etc. ?
golden relic
but in general ppl hate ppl that go for logs , your in a good guild for progression, not logs
brisk forge
But its clearly dosnet work out for ya, so take a step back and do it right
golden relic
or from my exp atleast from the past
brisk aurora
yeah parsing just comes with knowing the fights having the gear and knowing your spec just play the game and improve over time no big rush
golden relic
exactly
brisk forge
Well most farm can be for parses but that is diff in every guild ofc
golden relic
Idk ive always had this attitude towars parsing that, if u cant parse good while playing the boss properly, you prob cant play good in general
or, maybe i worded that wrong.
But if u can play youll parsee good TLDR
brisk forge
I mean at some point u can skip alot of mechanics and just yolo xD
golden relic
Ye but that comes with playing good does it not, like If i Know what I can do a certain thing without fucking ppl over and wiping
if i cloak on opulence to parse and i drop liquid gold on raid
solid nova
And tbh i wouldnt get fixated on parsing until you've ironed out the basic mistakes you're making
golden relic
thas just being an idiot
dark crag
Try to parse mekka when you do all robots in progress, later on farm you can ignore robots probably
brisk aurora
i actually wanted to die last night because my blockades kill got faster and i didnt get my last round of 2mins
brisk forge
Ofc, i just mention u can go all in for parses if your guild is doing it on farm and ofc there will always be basic mechanics u cant avoid
golden relic
depends how many ppl are trying to parse aswell haha
brisk aurora
^^
golden relic
ive been in guilds where every 1 tries and u just wipe
dark crag
Sad thing is you can't avoid doing robots because shrunk ppl do no dmg
brisk forge
But then everybody is ok with it, farm gotta be fun
golden relic
was playing warlock in antorus
parsing on dogs, not stayin with your grp
classic move
brisk forge
Dont wanna be in a guild where farm is progress
brisk aurora
switching to rogue from lock
golden relic
Hi shadow grp im fire
brisk aurora
you must be sick
golden relic
Ive always been rogue, i was just lock in antorus cuz i was doing m+ at the same tim
but idk, lock got ruined imo in BFA so its not like its a loss lmao
brisk aurora
need to give locks the sub rogue treatment
golden relic
Just waiting for sub to be BIS, plxxx
brisk aurora
^^^^
golden relic
i miss tomb so much
strange python
Same in M+ to be honest. Some people only go for Damage. They don't wanna spend shit on Interupts, kiting, LoSing, stunning. People care too much about DMG ;) that.... and I have out warlock in the guild Paddin on 1st boss haha. They dmg is so high lol. But my Boss damage is better ;)
spice surge
A well played demo should absolutely crush a rogue, especially on the first boss
Crush anything*
strange python
Well ye. Our Demo crushed me.... and everybody els. He was insane but the affi I crushed on ST ;)
golden relic
When u outdps a demo on grong heroic after they are bragging there class is broken 
dummy dps life
brisk aurora
i love when a demo lock beats everyone in raid but its still a blue
worldly iron
and everyone else is a green 
devout jolt
Anyone able to spread some light on why I'm parsing so low? Im deffo doing something wrong. We are also not a very clean guild when it comes to pulls and dps output but I feel I should be doing a lot better https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/6LkJxCHf3mTbac1v#fight=9&type=damage-done
golden relic
funny when a demo lock does some asburd number
its purple
then u look at ilvl log and its grey
classic
dark crag
Anwser is simple. Many abuse the av mechanic of grong
real bay
or when you do 28k dps and it's orange and a boomie does the same but it's green lmao
dark crag
Boss takes more dmg, so they do more dmg
strange python
28k ST?
real bay
nah
brisk aurora
ss boss and two adds like a real boy
golden relic
u wanna kno the worst feeling
real bay
well maybe first boss you can do 30k but that joke of a boss doesn't count
golden relic
when u get FAT opener, and i mean FAT
and your sitting at like 35k dps sub 50% on grong cuz the stars have aligned, and the guy that is gna use the orb has dcd
strange python
I did 27k ST on first boss :) we will go fewer healera next week = faster fight ;) 1st boss parse is a meme but fun
lofty river
Is it worth using 1x shrouded suffocation and subterfuge regardless of sims? MA sims higher for me but it doesnt feel as powerful.
strange python
I accepted MA in my life and I love it
lofty river
i actually prefer it, just see everyone else is using sub/ss
brisk aurora
the only boss i wouldnt run a sub/ss on is conclave
golden relic
woow
lofty river
every log shows sub/ss as top traits/talents
marble hemlock
but you knew that from looking at his panda
golden relic
so much anger
spice surge
Oi mate
marble hemlock
u wot mate
but nah, MA is okay, but its inconsistent so if you need consistent damage (like during progress) subter might be the better choice if the difference in projected dps isnt as big
brisk aurora
^
golden relic
we all play MA for t he openers
frozen pecan
^
golden relic
lets be real
marble hemlock
for some people its only 200dps or smth, in those cases id say take subter for the consistency, especially since BoD provides a lot of fights where you can actually get atleast 2 garrote off
i do not play MA, spefically because of the opener
real bay
our other rogue plays MA and I always catch him after 15 seconds lul
lofty river
cool, thanks all.
lofty river
thats just personal preference at that point though right?
lofty river
but you dont have an SS in that sim
spice surge
Subterfuge/MA is debatable, but SS isnt really a thing regardless
golden relic
only bosses i use SS/SUB on personally is jadefire and rastakhan
else i just use x3 DD
lofty river
i trusted logs over sims it seems
brisk aurora
i ran ma with that sim gear and didnt come close to my ss/sub parse
went from rank 4 to who the fuck cares about this kid
spice surge
Doubt thats the only thing that changed
frozen pecan
yea
brisk aurora
kill time changed but if i got a sick vanish on three targets which is easily done on blockade it would have been waaay better
spice surge
Well, everybody agrees that you can pad better with SS
But that doesnt mean its better
strange python
My Subs/SS Sims lower but maybe I should try anyway.
MA-3xDD, 2xTC, 1xNP
Subs-2xDD, 1xTC, 1xNP, 1xTTK, 1xSS
spice surge
Ooking seli
brisk aurora
disgusting
spice surge
Im not even advocating for MA atm, just against SS. Subt is fine
brisk aurora
MA tilts me too hard
marble hemlock
theres plenty of bosses where you can get good use out of subt/ss
grong, jadefire, opu, conclave (on raptors, not 2nd boss), rasta adds, blockade
opu is debatable i guess since p1 dps isnt really that big of a deal
brisk aurora
to be fair i also have catalyst trait or whatever the trait is where i have to stand in poop on the ground
marble hemlock
but feels noice to do vanish+double garrote with teleport 😃
wide delta
MA is fukin random
marble hemlock
well, sure, but its also better if you dont get fucked over by bad RNG
spice surge
Barrely
brisk aurora
if i had better i might like MA but MA wouldnt be what makes pure st feel good
spice surge
Or rather, the rng of MA isnt overly impactful towards the overall variance of the spec
spice surge
Its moreso that it feels so bad
wide delta
What traits do u run @marble hemlock
marble hemlock
i think the problem with MA is that its not needing good RNG to be impactful, but rather that if you have bad RNG its literally a 0dps talent
spice surge
Rather than it being numerically bad, even when it "fails"
brisk aurora
what the cat said
marble hemlock
for raid or m+ kurohi?
wide delta
Beides Bruder @marble hemlock
full pagoda
Was busy but ty for all the replies previously guys, sucks to ne at work
marble hemlock
top is m+, bottom is raid, in case its not obvious 😄
havent gotten champions/blockade helmet yet for raid, otherwise id have 3dd/3np
brisk aurora
his st on bosses were good running that
fleet fossil
Yo can anybody explain me why raidbots dont approve mine SS in helmet ? And which traits i have wrong ?
brisk aurora
kinda weird
marble hemlock
its not about st vs aoe, its about prio vs aoe
lofty river
do you not bother with TC?
wide delta
Fukin seli bis Traits - i want Those :(((
wide delta
The Other ones are from raid ?
wide delta
Lol
spice surge
Should prob use cepha for raid too seli, overwhelming too stronk
or well, i guess overwhelming is about as good as every other tier 3 on jaina
grizzled jay
Seli, would you run 2TTK 2SS 2EB or 3TTK 2SS 1EB. Those are my m+ options
grizzled jay
I'm torn on those comboes
marble hemlock
2eb
strange python
How many TTK do you have? Lol :o
grizzled jay
Yeah makes sense
wide delta
First one @grizzled jay
grizzled jay
Need your chest
marble hemlock
3eb is overkill, i think 2 is a good spot to be viable on aoe without focusing on it too much
thats lewd
strange python
I am using 2xSS, 2xTTK, 2xEB for m+ is very nice
marble hemlock
i just love popping 3x90k+ envenom crits into a prio target with CDs up
grizzled jay
Same feels good to blow up those big risen souls
strange python
So you have 3xTTK? Or how can you do 90k?
steep obsidian
pot? trinket procs? mine hits for 70k with just 1 of them sometimes
ttk is pretty big
scarlet sequoia
if you're gonna do shit like that why not just play sub rofl
steep obsidian
if he can do well as sin who cares
i have seen lots of rogues running outlaw in the big keys but if things work for you
fleet fossil
Hello, can anybody answer me ?
spice surge
Because sin can do aoe at the same time 😉
grizzled jay
Sub aoe LuL
scarlet sequoia
sub can as well kinda, but yeah fair
fleet fossil
cause of raidbots site i dont have any SS now, and im asking is that good or not ? i paste link to my armory profile with azerite gear
solid nova
Posting the sim comparison would be more beneficial
fleet fossil
2x DD + NP
solid nova
So we can see more clearly what you're referring to
fleet fossil
some time ago 3x ss was normal
steep obsidian
dd is very strong especially when stacked
solid nova
Fluctuation is normal but the sim will be more beneficial than the armoury link
fleet fossil
so what is bis traits now on m+
spice surge
Scroll up a bit, seli posted
fleet fossil
i see that
steep obsidian
its situational eb can be a huge waste on like tyrannical kings rest
dpends on dungeon comp and key level
marble hemlock
you always want 1EB to get some semi-decnet aoe on reapings tho
but yeah, 2eb might be overkill on some runs
fleet fossil
TC works only on raid ?
fleet fossil
so better will be change EB for TC on dungs ?
real bay
EB is better except for bosses
real bay
improved sub 
drifting cosmos
Sub aoe
rocky ruin
Is TTK good for ST and AoE or only AoE
worldly iron
sub? more like subpar
vestal wren
sub's aoe is calles secret technique
royal lantern
getting kicked out of 12 groups for not playing outlaw
srsly, that shit starts NOW?
quick ice
people don't know the power of a good sin 😦
polar tapir
that seems weird, especially considering its tyrannical week
vestal wren
thats nothing new, outlaw produces very nice numebrs what ppl prefere
smoky fiber
guild died in the span of the 6.5 hours since raid last night
i guess wiping a full night to mekka after killing him last week tilted everyone too bad
quick ice
big overall is easier to notice than good prio/boss damage
vestal wren
i mean, sin does not peform bad, but... (from one of the #rogue-streamers )
rocky ruin
But is the One Eye Ghoul
cobalt gyro
i mean is that just a reaping wave tho
sin sux at reaping cause you don't get to set up aoe really
rocky ruin
And doesnt sin suffer from not having burst aoe
vestal wren
i dont think outlaw being overtuned in burst aoe being a big issue
vestal wren
no just for a extended pack iirc
cobalt gyro
most of your damage in aoe is gonna be FoK or echoing really
or Garrote if you got a restealth
quick ice
might not have had barrage up?
rocky ruin
That is kinda what surprise me?
marble hemlock
might be a decent DH who doesnt play barrage
marble hemlock
instead of a pad-dh
quick ice
non-pad DH is fake news
steep obsidian
some reapings diff then others as well
scarlet sequoia
overall from a 14 freehold with lfg
vestal wren
well there is EB and MA for whatever reason 😉
rocky ruin
Yea but we wont do dmg if the other dds are gonna burst the adds down
cobalt gyro
Ya but you still need to set up with ruptures to get strong benefit from eb
rocky ruin
Because no Garrote or Rupture no Energy
vestal wren
outlaw is very strong esp. in lower keys
grizzled jay
So if they kicked you, you dodged a bullet
vestal wren
ppl dont need it, they want it
cobalt gyro
In my experience ppl just ask what spec i am
And if it's outlaw they spec for more boss dmg
vestal wren
more like a "why not take it if there are many outlaw rogues"
instead of a "we need it else we cant time it"
rocky ruin
Hahaha i got asked the same for 12 Kings Rest
grizzled jay
Lol
frozen pecan
xD
marble hemlock
just join as outlaw
ask for 10sec pulltimer
hide behing corner
respec at 8sec
spice surge
Like diavolo said, if you're getting kicked for not being outlaw you probably don't want to be in that group anyway
marble hemlock
youre a rogue, youre deceitful by nature
cobalt gyro
Lmao
rocky ruin
I said sin decline and he said outlaw is stronger in boss dmg and aoe
cobalt gyro
But ya have no issues pulling damage similar to what my outlaw does overall
marble hemlock
its just community perception
cobalt gyro
If the damage truly mattered that much
spice surge
It also comes from assa being harder to play
cobalt gyro
Then you wouldn't take boomies
spice surge
Whereas outlaw is just St blast with bladeflurry up
rocky ruin
Well who bring the outlaw thing to m+ anyway?
vast forum
Didn't know you played with doomsen
vocal rain
!stat
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination Stat weights:
Single target: haste > crit > mastery > vers
Multi target: crit > mastery > vers >= haste
Note: Simming will always result in more accurate results.
rocky ruin
But if you want play outlaw you can play fury warrior instead?
quick ice
yeah but utility
grizzled jay
Shroud
quick ice
no shroud as fury
grizzled jay
When they remove shroud we ll see more classes
spice surge
I find it hard to believe fury does more overall than outlaw
That any classes does more overall than outlaw tbh
royal lantern
fury is slightly overtuned right now
real bay
it doesnt
royal lantern
same with spriest and demonlock
rocky ruin
Fury got more aoe sustain
real bay
It's shit if there's more than x amount of targets
rocky ruin
Nah fury is middle pack atm
real bay
if every pull is like 5 mobs then fury is good
marble hemlock
only chainpulls that are bad for assa, are the ones where the last mob is literally 2% health
rocky ruin
I was main warrior but like i said the utility i have as a sin is better than my warrior
And i hate button smashing my keyboard
royal lantern
well
dont play warrior if you DONT want mindless button mashing without utility lol
rocky ruin
Hahahaha
marble hemlock
if you still have 2 or 3 mobs with bleeds up as the tank chainpulls, assa actually does pretty well
another reason why 3SS sucks
always gotta wait for rogue, cant ever chainpull
autumn sonnet
So why is TTK so strong together with EB? Do you simply spam FoK and use your combo points on envenom without using garrote or rupture?
royal lantern
tbf, all rogue specs want too re-stealth, outlaw is simply less affected by it
because it gives you good priority dmg
autumn sonnet
because of the 30% buff from TB?
royal lantern
if you stack EB too do high aoe, you could just play outlaw anyway
spice surge
If you have enough ruptures out (so like 4) then you start spending cp on envenom yes
autumn sonnet
I wanted to know how you play with it
spice surge
It doesnt affect gameplay much, besides using tb rather than exsang
Get bleeds up > tb > spam envenoms
autumn sonnet
ok, awesome, thanks 😃
will give it a try once I get the correct gear
oh and one more question. When you exit stealth with MA. Should I use my first 3 GCDs using FoK for the extra burst, or start applying bleed right away?
spice surge
Dont play MA in dungeons
autumn sonnet
sub and SS?
real bay
MA hidden blades meme build 3x EB
golden relic
@marble hemlock if you sim assuming your using TTK build , are u still simming 40 sec , 6 targets for stats
or are u more feelycrafting your way around it
azure hearth
what pvp talents did you guys use if any while lvling?
weak bone
Any that give +damage
strange python
@marble hemlock with 2xSS, 2xTTK , 2xEB. Still go Exsang? Or TB for the Boss ST and priodamage in packs?
spice surge
TB
strange python
I was Actually thinking that. I mean yes you lock into one target more but that is the whole point with 2xTTK
severe current
Sorry guys, what trait is ttk?
worldly iron
twist the knife
marble hemlock
TB ye
severe current
Ah, thanks...should really start to use english client...
opal adder
Noob q - we are just moving from nromal to heroic BFD and so far none of the 400 gear thats dropping is simming as upgrades for me (curr ilvl is just 399 with many 385 pieces).
The only time anything is even close is if it has crit+haste on it which is rare in BFD. Is this because of a stat weight thats so biased towards haste over agility? Other classes seem to be scaling very well as they get ilvl upgrades... My current stat weighting: ( Pawn: v1: "weiss - Assassination - Patchwerk (Raidbots)": Class=Rogue, Spec=Assassination, Agility=1.99, CritRating=2.76, HasteRating=2.98, MasteryRating=2.74, Versatility=2.51, Dps=10.07, OffHandDps=1.08 )
lament dove
if e.g. you have sockets those are worth a lot
autumn sonnet
are you simming yourself to see if they are upgrades or are you relying on pawn to do that?
opal adder
Simming constantly with gear compare mode
spice surge
I dont really understand the question, are you wondering whether your stat wegiths look correct?
If so yes
autumn sonnet
why not use droptimizer?
strange python
So two questions. With TB in M+.
On boss: Gar>Rup>Gar>Mut>TB>Env?
On pack: Gar>Gar>Gar>Rup>FoK>Rup>FoK>Rup>FoK>TB>Env>FoK>Env
?? Or when do I use it? So used to exang
spice surge
You use it when you have 4 bleeds up
autumn sonnet
why not use 4 gar on packs?
spice surge
So it would be gar>gar>gar>rupt>fok to 5/4>tb>envenom>fok>env
lament dove
because the 4th garrote is not empowered (so it's not worth anymore)
real bay
garrote does not refund energy when the mob dies , just rupture after the 3 g
autumn sonnet
makes sense
opal adder
@autumn sonnet Yes I do use Droptimizer too but of course those are the theoretical upgrades. I use gear compare for the actual drops that I have got. @spice surge Apologies if I was unclear, my question was is our upgrade path from normal to heroic BFD really as narrow as it seems since the increased agility from the ilvl increase barely accounts for any upgrade or am i missing something.
Droptimizer
Thank you all in advance for taking the trouble to respond to these questions
strange python
@spice surge So after that I burst that guy for 9 sec with Env FoK and energy from 4 bleeds. Then I rupture and reapply during CD of TB. Then redo
Sweet! :) ty
modest mason
@opal adder As u said already, ur ilvl 399. Hc drops is 400. That is the reason u dont find a lot of upgrades now using the Droptimizer. Just gotta get in there and pray for the titanforges
opal adder
Thank you
scarlet wing
https://prnt.sc/mrdcm6 with that setup i can also pick np over tc this week or? for deleting bosses
strange python
the relentless dagger grind continues today boys
sullen pagoda
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/j8nngY7Fud2cgGTEcFycay bis chest after 2 ruinous bolt chests 🙏
lament dove
you scrapped the first before buying the second?
spice surge
Thats a good chest indeed, but its not bis 😉 No overwhelming power ^^
shrewd plover
How many Hast we need to be good ?
raw fox
I forgot, how much haste do you need to raid with sin?
So that it doesn't feel like crap*
royal lantern
~15%
sullen pagoda
@spice surge there isnt one with DD NP and overwhelming reeeeeeeeeee blizz
spice surge
DD/TTK/OP 😉
sullen pagoda
i need to sim that if its better then my chest buying spree continues kms
my pain continues
pastel vault
The best chest is cepholide
pastel vault
Oh yea
spice surge
@sullen pagoda Also, if you want another ez 100 or so dps just swap your NP to blightborne
quasi pewter
gorak tul + cephalohide 
sullen pagoda
yea ive tried it out but idk how i feel about it, the proc chance is so low that if it procs during some kind of downtime its completely fucked @spice surge
ive had stormwall mythic pulls 4mins in with 2 procs
wary ice
Is wowanalyzer a useful starting point for sin problems? I know some specs its super unhelpful on
mint peak
I guess it's useful to see your bleed uptimes but you can do that with WCL. It can also help tell you if you're not using TB enough or Mutilating when you shouldn't be
wary ice
the one thing im confused on is that wow analyzer is saying i missed vanishes and Vendettas (most likely true havent dug into the logs myself yet) but its saying i missed 1 vendetta and 3 vanishes
That sounds not right to me 🤷
sturdy python
It’s not updated for rogues, so hard to tell what’s messed up.
I’m sure there’s some good stuff on it but probably need to be cautious
wary ice
I'll just dig myself, was hoping to save some time
I already know my bleed uptimes were shit
and im still trying to learn how to use MA correctly out of the opener
ripe nimbus
What do u mean use MA correctly out of the opener?
wary ice
Like how to set up the vanish
ripe nimbus
U press vanish on cooldown and hit envenom
wary ice
👌
raw fox
any tips to maintain good dmg on mythic conclave?
raw fox
Yeah, raptors are just straight up dying before I even get to dot em
ripe nimbus
Multi dotting raptors depending on comp is actually worth it depending how fast ur raid kills them.. and u know its part of the mechanics to the encounter and can cause wipes if not killed fast enough
Okay in that case just mong boss
spice surge
I was mostly refering to not dotting multiple bosses
mint peak
Don't garrote the raptors but absolutely put a rupture on them. THey'll die and you'll get full energy
I mean if you'd rather not move for 1 sec to get a full energy bar then sure
marble hemlock
id argue that having 3DD makes energy more valuable than CP
but its hard to say for sure
marble hemlock
well sure, its 25 vs 64% chance to get a DD per mutilate, but 150energy is 3 mutilates vs 0
mint peak
You need the energy for more mutilates assuming you're running the right traits. Tabbing and putting up a rupture then having full energy to envenom with DD and TB
ripe nimbus
Still dont have daggers over 400 ilvl. Fook rng
spice surge
Well, you want to do damage to them
ripe nimbus
Thats part of the fight frand
spice surge
Also, you dont get 150 energy from a rupture
mint peak
The 3 Rupture ticks dont add up to relevant damage, you do it for the energy
lost horizon
Full CP rupture?
spice surge
Its like 100, minus the 25 you spent on rupture. so like 75
And since 2 mut is about the same damage as envenom (assuming you have envenom up already)
Its pretty much +-0
mint peak
Just look at parses of top rogues on conclave. Not going to explain more why you should be doing such an obvious thing like rupturing the adds.
spice surge
`To kill them
ripe nimbus
We just get everyone to kite them into melee xD
spice surge
Because the energy gain isnt what you're doing it for
ripe nimbus
Hes obviously a god rogue because he looked at top parses. Dont argue with him
spice surge
But sure, you spend 5cp to get 82 energy
marble hemlock
so heres the question: are you just looking at logs and interpret what youre seeing into a "fact"?
while arguing against multiple rogues who have killed jaina or are killing jaina rn, and thus have had plenty of chances to try different ways of playing conclave?
mint peak
Why else would you rupture adds that die in 5 seconds? You'll get maybe 3 ticks of it doing neglible damage. That damage would be better by just envenoming if your priority is to kill the adds ASAP. But it isn't, you use the CPs to rupture instead of envenom because you get minor damage on the adds and overall more damage on your main target
mint peak
There are 4 adds that spawn. Why would any Rogue be using rupture on the stalkers instead of using the CPs on Envenom if all that mattered was the damage?
spice surge
Its the same reason we dont multidot on conclave
The energy from an extra rupture isnt overly relevant, its mostly the damage
mint peak
Why would I rupture instead of envenom
sturdy python
Maybe the adds live long enough for those parses that rupture ticks enough to bear envenom?
Would explain how they’d have top parses anyway, more multi target opportunity
quasi pewter
pretty sure full 5cp rupture does alot more damage than an envenom on average
rose perch
I mean it does if it ticks all the way yeah
quasi pewter
so if adds actually do live long for some reason
mint peak
They don't, you can see that. No stalker is going to live for 20+ seconds
quasi pewter
its obviously good to multi dot
mint peak
a 5CP rupture does less damage than an Envenom + DP procs + DD damage especially in TB window
If Venomous Wounds didn't exist or applied only to garrote you would never Rupture
spice surge
Now you are just spreading missinformation. Even with 3x twist the knife, the overall damage of a full ticked rupture is higher than that of an envenom
On average
mint peak
Because I'm telling you that you rupture the stalkers for energy mostly, not for damage. You aere never getting a 24 second rupture to tick on a stalker
spice surge
and i showed you the energy is negligable
rose perch
@mint peak
primal gazelle
🍿
desert vault
I need a third ttk piece for this week ... hrmm
mint peak
Add up the damage you get from Envenoming over that window though with poison and DD procs and then compare it to getting maybe half a rupture's duration of ticks in the same time frame
raw fox
Dmg is feeling kinda low. Doing 18-19k dmg right now on conclave by the time we almost kill 3rd boss
quasi pewter
btw im looking at some logs and there is plenty of stalkers that live for 20 seconds or so
depends on ur grp ofc but its not that unlikely
languid ore
Is it bad to throw some rupture to an add that's about to die to get energy back instantly
quasi pewter
and since u were talking about top logs and how they rupture stalkers
languid ore
I do that a lot
quasi pewter
they live 20 seconds so its worth to rupture them
for damage
not only for energy
if they spawn next to boss only ofc
rose perch
one thing to note is that ones that spawn closest to boss are also ones most likely to die fast
languid ore
So even with the energy refund it's not worth to rupture dying add?
quasi pewter
there is no definite answer so you kind of have to see for urself
too many variables
languid ore
Maybe someone has a more informed answer
spice surge
The energy refund is a consolation price, not a 100% refund
Whether or not its worth it depends on the situation, there are lots of situations in m+ where its worth it
Since energy is worth more than cp
wary ice
In M+ I rupture dying stuff before reaps 🤷
rose perch
yeah my opinion on conclave is it depends on how long they're living
languid ore
Yea I do it too
spice surge
But they dont apply as much in raid since spenders are still generally more useful than builders
raw fox
just ruptures though
languid ore
If they're about to die I use rupture on add always
rose perch
i run internal bleeding and usually put a kidney into them since that utility is really valuable too
languid ore
And squeeze in more muts
raw fox
Just gotta maintain dots everywhere
languid ore
Unless they're passing by I don't run after them
wary ice
ib -> boss damage, prey ->raptor damage
hollow stone
I guess with people split on raptors, probably
wary ice
I think the idea is raptors dont need 10% more damage into tehm
rose perch
i checked on my logs and Internal Bleeding did almost exactly 10% of the damage dealt to raptors in the 6 seconds after each kidney
hollow stone
Ib doesnt help w boss dmg..
rose perch
well you get energy from the kidney
wary ice
energy regen -> boss damage
rose perch
too
spice surge
Internal bleedings damage is A LOT higher than envenom
Not even factoring in the energy
rose perch
it's easy to check if IB > Potw or at least see how much dmg you're giving up for the energy regen
just go into logs and check the damage done to the target while the internal bleeding dot is active
and if IB is more than 10% of that then you know for sure it's better
hollow stone
Yeee. I understand for my dps, im asking me id you guys think its better raid dps to go prey. Been going ib but
Yea. For sure
rose perch
if it's in the 8-10% range then it's close and if it's below then run prey imo
i've run that check on g'huun and conclave now
hollow stone
Jaysus. That sentence... lmao
rose perch
just to make sure i'm not being selfish
hollow stone
At least you got the gist of it
rose perch
ya 😃
hollow stone
Tbf. Pretty sure only like half our raid switches anyway so IB prob better while playing with these apes
heavy skiff
how can i see the rotation raidbots is doing?
rose perch
strange python
had to flex with the 25.8k dps. 😉
quasi pewter
why does everyone have gorak tul
raw fox
i should sim the MA vs EP
quasi pewter
strange python
i don't see why not
heavy skiff
ok ty
median igloo
25.8 without bis chest either 😃
languid ore
Wow was that pic a subtle brag @rose perch
rose perch
no that was an accident i was just trying to help 😉
quasi pewter
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/fqSusZr3qvcoYKXLqUidaj look at this asshole and his 10 billion sockets
languid ore
quasi pewter
thats over 1k dps just from gems
cobalt pelican
on 2t patchwerk sim with 2x shrouded it's showing neither on the opener or the vanish 3x garrotes used, just one per target and never overwriting for pandemic, is that right?
combopoints too valuable i guess?
strange python
dumb question, but are you running subter?
cobalt pelican
yeah
strange python
what's it saying in the opener?
cobalt pelican
garrote target1, garrote target2, rupture primary target vendetta tb mut rupture target2
strange python
ah that makes sense
so with the opener, you're already at 4 combo points, i think it's more dps to apply a 4cpt rupture than reapply garrote on prim target
my assumption ofc
sturdy python
More likely the apl just isn’t tightened up for 2 targets
But possible a 3rd isn’t worth not sure
strange python
if he used a 3rd while under subt, thats essentially 1 combo point wasted for a garrote
sturdy python
3 wasted actually
cobalt pelican
it's 3 per so it's quite a bit more
strange python
oh yeah
rose perch
Ya i'm like preeeettty sure 3 garrotes is correct with SS on 2 targets in the opener
but the APL is not designed for multi target optimization like that i think
strange python
fair enough
sturdy python
Essentially using 3cp and garrote energy for one or two more SS+subt ticks?
Probably not proper to say wasting the cp since you wouldn’t be able to get it any other way
rose perch
it's not one or two more ticks though on 2 targets
it's like 10 extra seconds of garrote
sturdy python
Ah pandemic you right
spice surge
You're gonna garrote 1, garrote 2, garrote 3
oblique smelt
Insert the twitch meme about garrote that everyone posted during world first race
rose cedar
@rose perch I saw in your guide to spam CT at a certain # of targets, does that change with multiple echoing blades? ( thank you as always for the excellent information)
rose perch
i don't know for sure actually i think at a certain number of EB traits you are likely better off spamming FoK than CT
maybe someone in here knows, i have mostly been playing outlaw in M+ recently
ripe nimbus
U and literally every rogue xD
rose cedar
That was my assumption but I didn’t know the actual number
marble hemlock
well, just gotta compare initial damage of CT to the EB damage
theres a threshold of mobs, where the DET for fok is higher than initial CT damage thanks to the echoes
wary ice
I feel like the only feasible time you'd reach said cap is on stuff that wont live a full CT anyways
marble hemlock
you could calculate that, but frankly its not really necessary since youre gonna CT after every 3rd fok anyway to maintain EP
rose perch
ya we're talking about spots where you'd spam CT as your finisher (with enough ruptures for energy out) because it did more damage with the up-front component than another rupture
but the question is if in those spots you'd just want to FoK instead and i think the answer is prooooobably yes with EB traits
that's true though yeah
marble hemlock
im pretty sure a 2EB fok already deals more damage per target, without any echoes occuring, than the CT does initially
rose perch
we're talking about the difference between FoK FoK CT and FoK CT FoK
marble hemlock
the basedamage to fok that EB provides is fairly big
rose perch
yeah it's huge
wary ice
its like 20% or so isnt it?
marble hemlock
528 for a 415 piece
pre-versa scaling
on a base 2.5k damage, that already includes versa
so yea
crystal barn
hey guys quick question - ToL dagon cannons + tricks of the trade. Does it actually work? I tricks the tank but i dont see the ability actually activate and go down to 5 seconds
rose perch
yes it works - the threat is being redirected for the whole 30 seconds but the 6 second thing doesn't activate since you haven't actually attacked anything yourself
so it's even better than normal
marble hemlock
ye
strange python
so what is the meme with cannon? i just got one last night
marble hemlock
rogue is broken for cannons
strange python
oh? in which way. i know the sim is broken
rose cedar
Hmmm yeah I’ll have to math it out I guess to find cutoffs, or just switch back to outlaw
rose perch
@strange python we're talking about the cannons in the dungeon not the trinket - the trinket is pretty bad it underperforms its sims in most cases because if the target moves any time in the 10 years between when it procs and when the damage happens, it won't connect
lone junco
@rose perch is your avi from a fraternity class roster headshot
rose perch
no its from a wedding i was a groomsman : )
rose cedar
@marble hemlock @rose perch thanks for the thoughts and info, much appreciated
lone junco
we had a wall of the same suits.
crystal barn
ty guys ❤
rose perch
@rose cedar np sorry i don't have a sure answer i'll try to look into it and find out for sure
rose cedar
No worries, I’ll spreadsheet it out when I have some time, I was just being lazy
rose perch
ok let me know what you discover : )
rose cedar
Thanks again
ripe nimbus
Very staty
hard coral
did u look bro ?
mint peak
You can use raidbots to tell you your stat weights. The percentages and values are relatively meaningless in a vacuum. I mean they look fine you just need to get higher ilvl gear. Don't worry about the stats so much
ripe nimbus
Yes they look like stats
hard coral
but i would like to talk with some one about opener ?
strange python
ask ur question!
ripe nimbus
Okay then whats ur question linking ur armory and saying how my stats doesnt really help us here
strange python
stats wildly depend on gear, so simming yourself would give the most accurate results
hard coral
ah ye i know
strange python
so you have a question about opener?
hard coral
yea
strange python
what's your question
ripe nimbus
???
strange python
lol
ripe nimbus
Inb4 how many stats do i need to do my opener
strange python
lmfao
onyx rock
Calm down guys
ripe nimbus
Im calm just waiting for a question that can actually be answered
strange python
^
hard coral
i just like to know some one else opener with 1 shrouded suffocation
solid nova
!guide
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination Guide: http://www.ravenholdt.net/assassination-guide/
scenic nacelle
I guess there is no way to sim all m+ azerite pieces at 415 without individually adding them yet correct?
mighty elm
ffor how is the pool from the bombs left on the ground for on mythic
mighty elm
gigavolt radiation zone
rose cedar
The dot is nasty and you can’t immune it so no stacking pools, you can immune the debuff from the charge
primal gazelle
why use CT with EB when you can just use HB 
mighty elm
not talking about stacking it or anything, i know its on the ground for a set period of time
im wondering how long it is
rose cedar
I’m not sure on the actual time, but by the 6th pool the first spot is open again
raw fox
is there any way to avoid the leap from the tiger in conclave?
golden relic
no
cant vanish it even if de buff falls off, or atleast from my knowledge
the de buff will go away but the tiger still pounces u
winter gale
Is it important to put deadly enchant on main hand and quick on off hand or?
royal lantern
doesnt matter wich hand
winter gale
Ty m8
strange python
How do you guys manage to get so much crit? Is it the fact I am unlucky with sockets? :s
For m+
royal lantern
crit heavy gear
and sacrifice a newborn child too rngesus and lootcifer too get sockets
hoary crown
On fights like Jadefire masters, should you complete your opener and TB window before starting to apply dots on the other boss or is it best to just Dot upp both before starting your busrsting widnow :)?
mint peak
Dot them both first. Some ppl also delay their Vendetta until you come down from MSS but that depends on your kill timing
languid ore
You go outlaw dancing steel and autoattack afk purple parse
hollow stone
If youre running ma tb for jade, you wanna tunnel monk during your opener and spread dots after. If youre running ss, you wanna g monk g mage g monk rupt mage and then do your normal opener on monk
Outlaw in 2t cleave. Hah. Funny.
I guess if youre goal is overall dps outlaw would be good but meh
hoary crown
Thx alot for the qucik replies guys ! ^^
hollow stone
Yea. Pretty sure daggs dont drop for outlaw spec, it also helps if you do dungeons that actually drop daggs 😬
honest vessel
what's a good envenom/elaborate uptime over a st fight, like grong for example
spice surge
Uptime on those buffs arent very relevant
hollow stone
100% is good. Aim for that
That way, it'll be as high as it can be even tho 100% is impossible
honest vessel
I'm trying to figure how to balance pooling and buff uptimes
hollow stone
Dont worry about env uptime (in general). It is important to have it during your burns if running dd but outside of that, just do your best to maintain ep as much as you can without sacrificing any of the basic rotation. In other words, having your burns planned, keeping dots up, not over capping energy or cps, is all more important than ep or env uptime
marble hemlock
basically you want every mutilate to be cast while you have envenom buff up
with decent pooling that is pretty much always achievable
spice surge
^ So EP/envenom uptime isnt really what you should be paying attention to
As you will get good uptime of those playing well in general
silver horizon
Do you lads use anything to help you monitor your energy pooling?
warm geode
ì just look at energy bar
marble hemlock
nothing speical about pooling
just dont press your buttons just because you have the energy to do so
do it because it makes sense right now
garrote/rupture about to run out? refresh. enough uptime on everything, tb up in 5sec? get 4+ cp and pool
5cp and rupture 7sec remaining? wait 6sec and use rupture
real bay
vanish lines up perfectly on jadefire so you can g both before he ports away, anyway you can step to him
ripe nimbus
Or u could do the exact opposite like i do and press ur buttons when ever u can and still parse 99
marble hemlock
a lot of oepople refresh their bleeds immediately as they hit the pandemic timing, thats rarely the best move
real bay
pepega'd our kill today, killed myself to magma trap 20s before boss died 
should pay attention and not listen to random stuff on discord
marble hemlock
EP?
primal gazelle
but youll get EP either way regardless if you refresh at 6 or refresh at 1
ripe nimbus
What it comes down to really that pooling is actually such a miniscule affect on ur dps that it doesnt actually matter. Gettin lucky with crits has more of an affect then pooling does so why bother
marble hemlock
by delaying the rupture
you have more energy left
meaning you get 2 mutilates and envenom into the EP from the rupture
if you insta rupture, you might not get the 2nd muti or envenom in
= dps loss
primal gazelle
oh thats what you meant
marble hemlock
obviously oyu dont wanna energy-cap
but ideally you play around 120-150energy most of the time, and then empty your energy for TB
a lot of people constantly stay sub 70 energy, thats the mistake
ripe nimbus
Muh 0.8% dps 
silent silo
I don't see the point of holding onto that much energy. I have all 98%+ parses and I dont do that. I just make sure my bleeds are healthy and i pool before tb is off CD
sand otter
TB?
silent silo
Toxic blade
sand otter
RIGHt sorry
real bay
its a couple hundred difference at best so it wont get you 100%
sand otter
maybe thats what im doing wrong
marble hemlock
well, by pooling before TB, thats kinda what you do automatically
sand otter
i ams spamming mute and not pooling for things
real bay
spamming is bad
sand otter
noted
ripe nimbus
Sure go ahead but ur talkin to a discord where a majority still think there is stat caps. Theres alot more they could be doing to improve their dps then try to unnecessarily pool for a miniscule of dps.
marble hemlock
its really just a matter of "how many mutilates or envenoms do i have during tb/envenom"
mint peak
WotLK when you could do top DPS easily with white, common daggers
sand otter
well i never did that lol
hollow stone
Meh. Theres a lot of high parsing rogues in here that may wanna push that to the next level. I appreciate you, seli
sand otter
i was at the top though, and did my best
im just trying to fix my issue, when the sim says 20k, over 5 minutes steady, and im barley keeping above 14-15
real bay
sounds like dot uptime and cd usage type of thing
hollow stone
That wont be solved by pooling. You got bigger issues
sand otter
we killed jadefire alst night on herioc, so next boss is tonight
marble hemlock
im just saying that ideally we play as close to max-energgy as possible. obviously with current haste-levels etc. that rarely actually happens except right before TB
honest vessel
Thx for the clarification guys, for some reason I was overvaluing white DMG during envenom bufftime
Am dumb
sand otter
21% crit / 18% haste / 34% mastery
hollow stone
If your actual dps is that much lower than your sim, its an execution error, not gear or traits or stats
sand otter
oo
sec i has logs from Tuesday on our jadefire kill
be gentle with the laughing and the bully haha
been playing this game so long you think i would learn how to play my rogue, since its all i play
weary pecan
Skill gains from pure time investment plateau rapidly in almost any task/activity.
Have to start actively targeting areas you're weak in, playing to get better.
sand otter
makes sense
weary pecan
Or you can just be happy where you end up which is p reasonable too.
sand otter
i can fly an F18 and an A10c but a rogue makes my brain die lol
primal gazelle
the class changes every patch, so playing a specific class for X amount of years doesnt really hold much value imo
weary pecan
👍 Rogue is still my favourite class by far after trying many others.
sand otter
one of the first servers up Elune, Alliance Night elf. she is like my baby haha
then BC came out.... and the Belfs attacked..
ripe nimbus
I mean to be fair assassination hasnt changed that much we lost snd and hunger for blood its always been about keeping bleeds up and not wasting cp
sand otter
yeah i always keep garrote and ruptre, and im using a weak aura one of the streamers suggested, and rupturing at the right time, that has helped a ton
maybe its WHEN im using toxic blade
ripe nimbus
On cooldown
real bay
just use it on cd
sand otter
ok that i do
hitting a training dummy and making a quick video probably wont give much insight right?
weary pecan
Too much time off boss due to mechanics?
hollow stone
Until youre at the optimization stage, yeah, on cd is best (still best at optimization stage but there's more to it, like seli explained)
weary pecan
Important to know all your very basic, "playing the fight right" things are correct before worrying about perfect rotation.
real bay
first get the basic stuff then do more complex maxing
sand otter
i just want to shove it in this windwalkers face
35k the WHOLE fight
here, i ran the sim. i sit between 14-15k at the end of the fight when bosses die
solid nova
@sand otter You triple mutilate a lot, finish on 4+
And your opener is err
Off 😄
there's over capping CPs, then theres this my friend
!guide
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination Guide: http://www.ravenholdt.net/assassination-guide/
solid nova
^^^
real bay
thats a lotta cps
sand otter
geez didnt realize i was doing that
solid nova
I genuinely dont think ive seen this before 😄
ripe nimbus
Guys he was running antcipation he had 10 CP.. leave him alon....... oh wait
solid nova
You need to polish this opener fam, check the guide for the appropriate opener
Rule for finishing: 4+, you're doing this an awful lot
solid nova
Nope
sand otter
i have learned the error of my ways
real bay
its either 4 or 5
solid nova
4+ is the rule
sand otter
so mute at 3, not at 4 got it
solid nova
Mutilating on 4 is a 🙅
sand otter
that will help a lot
wonder if i should run 3 shrouded instead of the other powers
have the ability
solid nova
Polish up the opener
Correct the massive over capping
TB on CD
Start second potting
Line your vanish/vendetta up
ripe nimbus
Thats what simming is for
weary pecan
Sim it and run the thing the sim says 👍
solid nova
That alone will make a significant improvement
solid nova
I'd also run a top gear sim and select gems/enchants
sand otter
but i have guildys that say dont always look at the sim.
and our top dps is a wind monk and demo lock lol
sturdy python
It’s good to keep critical thinking even with sims. DD is stronger than SS for ST
So trust the sims there
real bay
demo lock is good
sand otter
right, reforging for mythics is a good idea then, since i make sure to garrote as many targets as i can
silent silo
Also looking at your talents don't run subterfuge you dont have any ss traits. Go with master assassin I'd your going to run 0 ss
solid nova
Especially as you've got TTK, missing out on all those finishers is smashing your dps into the ground
sand otter
ooooooo
solid nova
But yeah,
Read the guide, pins too
Polish up the opener
Correct the massive over capping
TB on CD
Start second potting
Line your vanish/vendetta up
Do this and post logs next week, for science
solid nova
Yeah you just gotta cover the basics atm mate, but it'll be a significant improvement
sand otter
yeah will do
solid nova
Goodluck 
sand otter
ty
sturdy python
Spend some time on the dummy
sand otter
am going to so i can work on the opener, and never evne thought about using master assasin
sturdy python
MA isn’t huge over subt but it is better
silent silo
I would pick up at least one ss trait then. That's what I was trying to get at before
hollow stone
Basics first. Then optimize
mint peak
your MA window is get 5 CPs and Vanish. How is that harder than refreshing garrote. It also is prob easier as your Vendetta and Vanish line up easier
hollow stone
Keeping track of an emp g or planning ma window can be a lot for somebody still learning to execute the basics
real bay
you also pool for MA, not saying thats hard but Subt is easier
hollow stone
I get that everyone here just started out with a perfect understanding of the class and rotation but maybe others dont...
real bay
only thing you can mess up is vanish when garrote is still on cd
mint peak
yeah lol, I just think Sub is not really easier since your Vanish doesn't line up. With MA even if you don't pool you're using Vendetta so will still get off the MA attacks
sturdy python
Nah MA is definitely easier to mess@up
Especially since we already know cp management is a problem here
mint peak
I guess more importantly I would use an obvious tracker for your CPs. Seems like if you're not sure how many you have it isn't displayed obviously enough on your UI. Then eventually you'll get used to never hitting Mutilate more than 2 times in a row
hollow stone
Zzzz. Read what tisumi said... it makes perfect sense
wary ice
On the topic of the usual questions Do I TB before or after Vanish when cD's come back up
I'm thinking its Vendetta ->TB->vanish->env->mut->env
solid nova
Pretty sure TB before or after is a negligible difference, one being more less crit reliant than the other
ripe nimbus
I think he should focus on pooling!
hollow stone
Thats what i do. But idk if its actually correct anymore... apparently tb in first gcd of van is more consistent but for your 2nd vend van i think env m env is better. Opener, idk :/
solid nova
Sec someone summarised it nicely before, ill see if i can find it
wary ice
So i can be flexible with it based on CP points?
ripe nimbus
- Respec into subt because fook rng
wary ice
I have 0 ways to get a SS onto my set lol
sturdy python
Where’s Tb in that second version though
wary ice
MA is like a 2.7% st dps increase for me
ripe nimbus
Doesnt really matter the dps gain from running MA is very smol
sturdy python
K
real bay
yea SS isnt needed, actually sim more with DD with Subt than with SS , just get the benefit on no rngus
ripe nimbus
Does TB before or after vendetta actually make any significant difference
Im pretty sure its a smol boi too
I mean i believe its still small even then
real bay
i just do it after Vend to get dat boost on TB and the full duration TB for Vend with NP, either way i guess its small
sand otter
ty for the assist everyone
the opener and not over using mute on combos made a huge difference
just have to get this into muscle memory and it should help a ton
solid nova
👌
bronze topaz
how does my aoe rotation with 2 eb traits look like?
mint peak
Keep 3-4 ruptures up on high HP mobs and fill in the blanks with Envenoms. If they'll live long enough (not reaping) open with 3xGarrote
Spamming FoK for CPs obviously
proven wasp
are there any streamers who play sin?
modest badge
if i get enough regen from ruptures during reaping i just spam fok till the dead
i also run 2 echo
ripe nimbus
I just swap to padlaw xD
modest badge
i switch to outlaw on non tyranical weeks
wary ice
Shouldnt u still finish every 3rd fok; if not to maintain CT uptime / PB chance; then at least for EP?
modest badge
i feel craft it so i do t know if its optimal but if im at max energy for all reaping spamming fok seems better
scarlet wing
what you think about ttk build with deeper stratagem?
still pewter
What's today's emmisarry for na alliance