!guide
#assassination
solid nova
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination Guide: http://www.ravenholdt.net/assassination-guide/
fluid mist
Does somebody have the apm class overview link?
fluid mist
Thanks man
timber ginkgo
hello- I'm a bit of a rogue newb but I've got this rogue claiming that tanks shouldn't chain pull in m+ cause they need to get out of combat to stealth so they can do more damage... apparently that rogue is assassination... is this true?
oblique smelt
When playing with Toxic blade and im at 5CP with Toxic blade off CD do i lose damage by doing Envenom > Toxic blade and then continue
basically does Toxic blade increase damage of Envenom
i remember someone saying it doesnt
solid nova
@timber ginkgo for subterfuge and shrouded suffocation damage yes
As you get empowered garrotes
@oblique smelt it's fine to tb at 5cps
timber ginkgo
@solid nova is it a significant dps gain though, over the time saved by chain pulling instead?
timber ginkgo
how huge a gain? is it 5% or more?
cerulean walrus
If they’re running 3 SS it’s an absolutely ungodly % of their damage
oblique smelt
alright fair enough i personally love wasting combo points so thats fine
strange python
SS and Sub in M+ is insane. If you get a restealth between packs and know how to handle your Vanish in a good way. just the Garrote will be so much dmg 😛
indigo mulch
I'm having abit of a cross road here.
I see most people running SS/DD traits
But i sim the highest (on st) without SS.
Should i swap to DD/SS instead?
I mean therer are hardly any ST bosses in the new raid anyways.
I mean is it worth dropping 300 ST to get a SS trait? O_o
safe matrix
the sim is pure patchwerk, so 5 mins 1 target with 100% uptime
but realistically fights are rarely like that
safe matrix
if you're running MA, probably not
ocean rampart
Nope, non-ss build works in new raid really well in my experience
hushed maple
Hey guys are there addons, to show 400+items in the lootm window?
I want to know, which dungeons I have to go
strange python
I peronally like to have Sub SS on some fights and 3xDD MA on other
safe matrix
SS/subt can bestrong on cleave fights
strange python
In a fight with more than 1 target SS will do better
indigo mulch
Most of the fights in there is more than 1 target tho.
buoyant coyote
Richard
spice surge
You barrely get any iceblocks on mythic
buoyant coyote
Is sin fun 
indigo mulch
90% of all the mythic logs noone even runs MA.
indigo mulch
o.o;
spice surge
If you have any SS trait you run subterfuge
sturdy python
Theres just not a lot of fights where youll get meaningful value out of SS
soft cargo
indigo mulch
The problem isent how it feels :p I like the numbers.
tribal marlin
for me Subter or MA is only 0.2% difference and I have no SS trait.
so every time I can value of garrote I just run subter
oblique smelt
@hushed maple for M+ yes. For ST its awful
Personally kinda like MA its a bit tilting when you Vanish > non crit envenom > 2cp mutilate
But other than that its nice to see big numbers
round harbor
Just turn ingame numbers off and it feels better
rose perch
round harbor
Floating DMG numbers are a scam
oblique smelt
Luckily my DPS meter only has 19 spots so i cant see myself at the bottom 
karmic ingot
You can gain meaningful value from sub/SS on about 4/9 fights. MA is strong on 9/9 fights.
karmic ingot
I have shoulders that have DD + SS and I still run MA and just use trade winds instead of SS on the shoulders because on 5/9 fights it’s better.
Also, triple DD feels so fucking good when you have Vendetta up and you press mutilate and see a 32k crit from your Azerite traits.
true fulcrum
is it ever worth it to eat haste food instead of agility if your stat weights favor haste? here are my stat weights https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/gLYhHKJT98APMsZELp4YCH
sturdy python
can be, can just do the math and see
oblique smelt
i have been wondering the same im just not smart enough to do the math 🤔
let me see if i can not fuck this up
how much does the pleb food give
stat food
i meant the other one 🤔
70
182 for haste and 193 for agility in this case
Mastery sims highest for me 🤔
lost sentinel
so is hidden blades actually worth it for 3x EB + MA?
royal lantern
it gives you good burst because EB makes FoK stronger too
but the EB proc does NOT work with hidden blades
hushed maple
God damnit I am so sick of this Community.
a goddamn 9+ key
da damn 90!
*9
And these guys flame each other insulting each other for failing
holy damn
probably 20% of the chat from the last boss, which we didnt kill cause the tank left then
Now the goddamn tank is writing to me, that I shouldnt tell him how to play, even tho all I said is, that he also played bad and he has no right to flame others
"I play good" "Im no boost group" "I did 10s intime"
south horizon
Question regarding envenom and elaborate planning. Is it better to try maintain more EB uptime if it means clipping an envenom buff short? Or try time it for max envenom uptime?
karmic ingot
@south horizon are you parsing 95% or higher on every fight?
karmic ingot
Battle Potion. Prolonged Power is for level 110s.
bleak spoke
they're cheap though 8D
lament adder
It's not 100agi for 60 seconds, it's all stats
And someone told me you can use them in m+
topaz axle
karmic ingot
You can use them wherever you want. They’re still inferior.
lament adder
Yea, agi/stam/armor, i'd rather spam this for trash in m+ than spend 300g -400g per pot if i'm doing 10s-14s keys lol
spice surge
Its all stats, as in str/agi/int and stamina
bleak spoke
if we're going to be technical about it 😡
spice surge
Use whatever you want, but battle potions are vastly superior
still ledge
Hey guys. Quick question from freshly baked assa rogue. If I am in aoe scenario and I'm running CT, should I just keep spamming with fan of knives?
For example during reaping
buoyant flicker
no
well
depends on a lot of things
u want enough ruptures up on aoe so u dont have to worry about energy
but if you're running echoing blades traits u only wanna keep up the dot from crimson and just spam foks
lone junco
finish on 4 or 5. never mut on 4. tab out like 4 ruptures until you cap e. ggg is your friend.
south horizon
@karmic ingot sorry, missed your reply. Currently parsing at best in the mid 80s and looking for ways in which i may be misplaying and can improve
robust light
which slot has best chance of rolling SS/EB? was it shoulders? cant remember
karmic ingot
@south horizon the reason I asked is because you can perform at the 95% range and higher without ever worrying about the difference between things like EB uptime vs envenom uptime.
Instead, focus on making sure you are using your CDs as often as possible and that you are making the best of your burst windows.
halcyon spade
So i have a SS in my head piece right now but i could put a double does in and run no SS is that better for raid?
quiet parrot
Would anyone be able to look at a compare log i have from mythic raid to try and help me figure out what im missing / doing wrong?
karmic ingot
DD > SS for raids.
halcyon spade
what would my opener be then since i wouldnt have a ss?
karmic ingot
It’s covered in the guide on ravenholdt.net
exotic fractal
Is kimbuls trinket not simming right? its simming better for me than a socketed dooms wake and a gigavolt charger even at only 385 even though bloodmallet/herodamage shows it as worse than both
civic palm
Yeah but at the same time the damage seems shiiiiiiiiiit.
exotic fractal
right but even so, it seems really odd that its simming better than 2 trinkets that mallet/herodamage say are better
proper igloo
ct this week for m+?
cobalt pelican
mythic gigavolt?
on herodamage kimbuls is pretty close to gigavolt and it depends a lot on your crit weight (which will spike up and down depending on your other stats)
hearty venture
!guide
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination Guide: http://www.ravenholdt.net/assassination-guide/
steep obsidian
i mean if you care so much about trash damage play outtlaw this week 😛
trash + reaping
ct is probably worth though
civic shard
Does the Azerite Power "Nothing Personal" stack?
upbeat slate
The damage does but not the energy gen
civic shard
ty ty
quiet parrot
Why does the Sin guide rotation for "One or more Shrouded Suffocation powers for Toxic Blade" tell you to Cast Garrote
Rupture
Garrote
Isnt that second garrote going to overwrite the empowered Garrote?
steep obsidian
no you get 3 garrotes out during subt window
you pandemic the garrote to last longer and also get more cp
robust light
@quiet parrot ever heard of pandemic?
frail quiver
Whats the maximized damage opener on 3 targets in a dungeon? Do you apply garrote on all first (using 3x SS) and then rupture them all or is it better to gar-rup 3 times or something entirely different?
robust light
Always garrote 3 targets during subterfuge
Then start ruptures
And ct if you play it
frail quiver
Even tho i overlap the combo points by doing that?
robust light
Yep
frail quiver
Thanks!
robust light
Np
frail quiver
Do i smash one CT to get them bleeding and then rup each of them or do i rup first and then CT?
robust light
I apply rupture first after my garrote then fan for combos then ct
Then rupture rest of targets
visual quartz
@quiet parrot It will overwrite with another empowered, giving you the pandemic extra tics
nova wind
hiya, can you re-empower an empowered garotte using vanish before it falls off ?
i mean re-apply it 😦 derp its late
it seems if i try i only get regular garotte
civic palm
Yeah but it's more like a new application, nothing is carried over other than the remaining time (up to 30% of the prior duration).
nova wind
i can't even ask what i want to know its so confusing
civic palm
Sure ya can, think it through.
nova wind
im going to check out the guide before i ask something thats already been explained somewhere else, not that i havent read it 5 times already 😄
civic palm
👍
civic palm
Alright so that part is taken from the part in the guide that assumes you are using 1 Shrouded Suffocation trait with Subterfuge;
nova wind
aye i do have it
civic palm
You wait until the Garrote runs out as you do not want to lose damage from that Garrote being Empowered by Shrouded Suffocation and Subterfuge, mixed with Haste modifying the tick timing of your DoTs now.
You get a limited number of Empowered Garrotes due to only being able to apply them at the beginning of combat (coming out of Stealth) and from Vanish (coming out of Stealth) and they do a lot of damage.
You Garrote twice out of Stealth and Vanish (Stealth) due to the pandemic mechanic allowing you to transfer 30% of the maximum duration of the old DoT to the new DoT.
nova wind
i got you
nova wind
i had my rotation slightly wrong i was doing vanish garotte rupture garotte and it wasnt doing me any favours (wowhead eugh)
ty my man
back to the dummies
civic palm
Garrote Rupture Garrote is fine as well;
so long you are not wasting time casting the first Garrote after Vanish.
If you wait 1+ seconds after Vanish you will miss the Empowerment window from Subterfuge.
If you hit Garrote/etc. immediately after Vanish activating you will have plenty of time to G Rup G.
nova wind
i see - just for clarity this 1+ seconds, im still in stealth why does it matter?
civic palm
Because the Subterfuge window only lasts 3 seconds total after you have pressed a button or left Stealth from something like auto-attacking.
civic palm
If you Vanish you should also stop auto-attacking.
But damage/etc. will knock you out and start the Subterfuge timer, if you're interested and use WeakAuras just make one to track Subterfuge so you can get a better feel for it.
nova wind
i use weakauras i dont know how to actually make one, i import from wago?
but thats off topic for here
i will figure it out, google is my friend you've been a big help
civic palm
If you have NEW selected on the left and go through the TEMPLATES on the right can you find one through the BUFFS option.
nova wind
cheers
civic palm
👌
strange python
Heyas, noob question. Does Assassination damage seem low at levels 10-30? Seems like it takes forever to build combo points.
safe matrix
for levelling, most agree that sub is the best for the lower levels
then outlaw/sub for the later levels
most of sins damage is dots so it can be a bit lackluster when levelling early
strange python
thanks @safe matrix makes sense. Think I will stay true to this spec just for learning purposes
safe matrix
don has a levelling guide, it was written a while ago but its still relevant since the lower levels havent really been updated
gimme a sec to find it
strange python
ok
tribal marlin
can you survive big pulls in outlaw whith GM during levelin ?
safe matrix
I'm not sure, I havent levelled a rogue in 4 expansions
buoyant coyote
lvlign as sub 
strange python
playing subterfuge without shrouded, should i garrote garrote in the opener or just garrote once?
single target
ravenholdt says only to garrote once but i dont get why you wouldnt want max duration
dapper moat
Loss of energy for another garrotte without ss might not be so effective as u could just cast mutilate with your DD talents the dos might ve higher?
shy dust
Simming at 19.5k ST at 394 is that good? Saw a frost mage at same ilvl sin at 21k do not sure
strange python
@dapper moat that might be the case, thank you
west fox
kimbuls razor claw trinket is simming really high but only does about 1% of my damage
anyone know why it is simming high?
kimbals does about 250dps for me when im simming around 21k. is it broken?
light narwhal
@shy dust Compare to other rogues not other classes. also 20k ish for 394 is good i think.
shy dust
Okay thanks!
strange python
3xDD sims best. And everybody and every guide right now says to go MA TB 3xDD. Sure it Sims best on ST patchwork. But.... what is the best raid comp or traits? It look like 2xDD 1xSS and Sub?
vast forum
Why not both 3xDD and a SS?
light narwhal
i'm aimiing for 3xDD 2x Tc and 1x NP
real bay
I'll just take what ever pieces I can get 
vast forum
I personally always prefer ss as it provides smoother gameplay + is absolutely just better in any non st situation
real bay
1 SS for sure
vast forum
At a very minor cost in st dps
real bay
just feels loads better
raw tusk
How do you guys keep bleeds up on target when mechanics force moving around? Do you use any macros or anything
quick ice
If I think I'm going to be away a long time I refresh early
raw tusk
So use poison knife to keep building and not energy cap?
I never really thought to use it that way lol
Also everyone mention having at least 1 SS but that never sims well for me is it as good as people say
real bay
you don't lose anything if you have to run away anyways
poison knife gets you full cps and keeps deadly poison on
strange python
So people still wanna go 3xDD and MA? It just feel so bad on any boss or encounter with more than 1 target. As long as you have to swap it feel bad, in my opinion. But maybe you want to go pure ST and then just ask your RL to grant you the power to just attack boss
inner pecan
the relevant bosses in this raid are all pure ST basically
clever niche
This tier has lots of fights where you get a fair bit of uptime on a single high health target
inner pecan
the last cleave boss is Rastakhan
and everything up to and including that boss is kind of a meme
prime monolith
hey guys!
mind if I ask a question here about assa?
since they removed minor wound poison as a pvp talent, I was wondering in which pvp contexts I should replace deadly with wound
and if replacing deadly damage is worth applying wound to begin with 🤔
topaz crow
@prime monolith first their is a seperate pvp channel for rogue. Secomd anytime theres alot of healing or a healer take wound and master poisoner
prime monolith
for example, in BG.. should I regardless fo for wound and aim to healing red utility?
solid nova
#pvp The pvp heads will have a better idea, pretty sure its a common question so should be easily found
prime monolith
thanks 😄
rocky ruin
In M+ are we using the single rotation on the boss with Crimson Tempest too or not?
and trash packs 3xRupture, 3x Garrote and Crimson Tempest no Envenom right?
gusty plinth
you dont use ct on ST
velvet kernel
I recommend outlaw for m+
strange python
It depends what pack comp it is. For example in Siege there are a lot of packs where you have a mob that has significantly more HP than the others. The I would use 1 CT (if talented) for uptime then Envenom the big target, getting CPs from the other mobs. Also if you have a dps comp where targets will get cleaved uneven I would use Envenom aswell
velvet kernel
It does not matter if it’s uneven tho
strange python
Ofc it does
velvet kernel
Unless it’s a shit werk
Week
But if u care about pushing high outlaw is just better imo
strange python
Nah it isn't. Sin is alot stronger than most people think. And one of the reasons is that you can priotarget with Envenom from FoK and still do insane AoE with the right traits
Outlaw is just nice for overall dmg. But it all depends what other DPS you play with ofc
velvet kernel
Sin is stronger then outlaw at what aspect though
Outlaw can literally do everything sin can
Just requires more luck
rocky ruin
the ravenholdt guide Multilate at 1-2 and Fan 3 and more but the icy guide say Multi at 1 and fan at 2+
say
strange python
If you have EB (echo blades) the number of targets change :)
rocky ruin
how many EB traits i could need?
rose perch
If you have any echoing blades you should fan on 2+
if you don't you should fan on 4+, using it to spread poisons on 3 as needed
if you have double dose you should fan on 5+ and use it only to spread poisons on 3-4
strange python
I changed traits the other day to only have 1xEB and the priodamage becomes insane. The overall is even still the same so that is just very good indeed
rocky ruin
if i have DD then i should Mutli on my main target and putting my bleed stuff on that and Fan only to spread poison and still rupture 2 other target
strange python
Ye 2 other targets, so you have 3 total
rocky ruin
but if Eb i should use fan at 2+ targets and still do the same with bleed
rose perch
yes
rocky ruin
and CT
strange python
If you choose to spec CT yes that sounds about right
rocky ruin
does a rupture tracker exist?
rocky ruin
well its kinda big all right?
light narwhal
i have a WA that tracks my rupture and garrote on my current target
tells me when to refresh. with pandemic
dusky gyro
luxthos wa has it tracked for me thats odd
rocky ruin
its tracked but not how many are up
brisk forge
Use frames and u can easily see it.
rocky ruin
yes was thinking about changing something in plater
rain pewter
you bunch still toxic as heck?
light narwhal
we use poison yes 
vast forum
Toxicity is a social construct
strange python
Is there a smart way to sim for different variations of crafted 415 gear? I want to use top gear since I want to match it with other items so how do I find the bonus id for each version of the crafted item? I have peerless right now, guessing Feverflare or Fireflash will sim better but then I prolly need to change my rings for example.
quick ice
I think Wowhead can generate those bonus IDs?
If not, you could make them in gear compare maybe, then copy the lines from show simc input?
strange python
When I do my stat sim I have haste mastery as the two highest, and having a crafted 415 with crit/mastery I feel I should maybe reroll it to Feverflare (haste/mastery). I know I am really going overboard with minmax but still would be nice since I have two crafted(legs/feet) I feel that would make a big difference
vestal wren
if you want to sim specific stats on random stat gear you can just do a stat overwrite for your char
its rather simple.
gear_agility=3375
gear_stamina=296
gear_crit_rating=657
gear_haste_rating=710
gear_mastery_rating=883
gear_versatility_rating=733```
just replace the values with yours and change them according to stat changesHow would I do that? I have 7 400 rings all with different stats and 2 crafted 415. So finding the best combo including the random stats feels hard.
Oh. I wrote as you posted, thank you!
bronze topaz
how high should the EP, Envenom uptime be in a single target fight? i am at ~71%. it feels low
tribal marlin
envenom uptime doesn't really matter, what does matter is to pool before envenom
to get maximum output of it
bronze topaz
how many envenoms in a row should i be able to cast within the buff windows before i run out of energy?
tribal marlin
Your goal is not to cast as much envenom as possible during envenom buff, it's more casting as much as Mutilate as possible especially when playing with multiple DD.
so basically you pull up to 120 energy before using evenom, unless vendetta/TB are up on the target
you should be able to do 2 evenom per TB cast
bronze topaz
thanks, i will practice this now 😃
tribal marlin
well I'm not sure I was clear, but the "pooling before envenom" thing, you don't do that during vendetta/TB
only outside of ven/tb window
bronze topaz
but i pool energy before i use tb (without vendetta), right?!
tribal marlin
yes but in fact if you do pool before envenom you won't need to be concern about pooling for TB
things will goes well anyway
bronze topaz
great, thank you very much
strange python
Had to retype.
When looking at logs, I parse high on HC but I still feel I do bad. And then I do the same rotations on Mythic and I parse bad (around 60). Is it just that more skilled players play mythic, so it shows how much I fuck up, or is it that my timings are just way of in mythic but good in HC due to mechanics and fight length?
thin patio
Share some logs so we could take a look i guess
vestal wren
mythic is more compatitive, gear is usually higher and killtimes lower. Strategie also play a big role.
so overall, its harder to parse high in mythic then in heroic bc. constraints are diffrent
strange python
@thin patio it was more a general question based on the differences in logs. But thank you!
So basically I should compare to others with similar tactics to be able to determine how my rotation and timings for the fight is
thin patio
Yeah i guessed so reading again
vestal wren
best way to improve is to post logs and let others review them
finding/correcting mistakes is worth more then a high log on a certain fight. Given a decent enviroment your logs will unavoidable be good over time.
raw tusk
How much energy should be pooled before envenom and is it on every envenom? Outside of tb vendetta of course
heavy trail
You try to clip ep as late as possible, if not pssble, clip the envenom buff, but dont cap energy while doing so
lone junco
@little osprey why would you have a mutilate WA? yes we press that button. and where are the bleed trackers.
little osprey
The bleed trackers are underneath the combo points
Mutilate is greyed out if you have 4 combo points or more. (Acutally I need to check for Deeper Stratagem), and it fills up based on how much energy you have
full at 50 energy.
lone junco
sounds like you are trying to work in Aethys or hekili.
little osprey
Not sure what they are
little osprey
It's just correct for what you absolutely should not be using in your rotation.
vestal wren
aethysrotation was renamed to herorotation
lone junco
@vestal wren do you know if it supports ret well? i recently started working on my hpal.
little osprey
if you couldn't tell I had bleed timers I'm a little worried about that videos quality..
lone junco
Just going for blue parse Ret. so either will probably be fine.
vestal wren
its a re-implementation of the simc apl
iirc there was a parser but a lot of it is done by hand (hence that automatic parsing dont work perfectly)
little osprey
better
obsidian sierra
Is there any encounter on mythic in bod which would favour another spec than assa?
Like zul for sub or outlaw for zek voz
Or assa the best through the whole raid
vestal wren
depends on what your raid team needs
spice surge
The only ones i can think of is if you need cleave on jadefire wall, raptors on conclave, adds on opulence and iceblock on jaina you could play outlaw
onyx raft
Opulence is pretty decent for Outlaw, however Assa should be good for every fight
spice surge
But in general assa is very good and versatile, especially if you have multiple azerites
vestal wren
sub is also good on some fights, but not to a point where it would make a diffrence
obsidian sierra
Ok thx guys
winter moss
i mean the overall log is orange and stuff, but the ilvl log bugs me. could an extra pair of eyes spot me some fails i didnt see? Nylerah is the name. Please and thank you very much. https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/An6yYRDVPkq9djgr#fight=last&type=damage-done
spice surge
Ilvl logs are basicly irrelevant
winter moss
for me it just means im overgeared and underskilled 
spice surge
Because there are a lot fewer people in that bracket, so even if you do 30 dps less than rank 1 in that bracket you might be a 90%
winter moss
30dps could make such a huge diffrence?
golden relic
if u have 10 ppl some1 has to be 10
onyx raft
Yes, 30 dps can be the difference of 5 ranks
golden relic
so yes
spice surge
That not my point, my point is that if there are only 10 people in your ilvl bracket
Then if you do 21k, and all the other ones do 21.1k, then you'd get grey logs
Because your the "worst" player in that bracket
winter moss
probably true tho
spice surge
Which is why ilvl rankings are irrelevant
obsidian sierra
Im always wondering ehy i only get green and blue logs with 408 ilvl 😂
spice surge
(and also sockets/azerite/weapons means ilvl is basicly irrelevant anyway)
winter moss
most of the time i just spent analyzing every cast
rotationwise there is nothing to big, just bugs me that it's blue
knotty nymph
So my sim tells me that MA is better but dmg metter says different. Any idea?
onyx raft
How does the dmg meter tell you different? I guess you are playing Subterfuge, so it can be that you dont know your opener/how to use vanish with MA
winter moss
are you utilizing it correctly
onyx raft
Aswell as you are prob simming for patchwerk, 1 boss, which makes MA better, but since most fights have more than one target, Subterfuge can be better
knotty nymph
Yep :-) i go 3x dd without ss for ma build.
real bay
more than one and it simply is better
onyx raft
How big is the DPS dif with MA and Subterfuge?
spice surge
Rasta/jadefire/grong are the ones that do
real bay
just swap around with tomes
onyx raft
Rasta has with adds in p1 and start of p3
real bay
cost nothing
onyx raft
I would say, if you dont like MA and it is just around 100dps increase, go with subterfuge, since it can be utilized better in this raid
knotty nymph
2nd is it better goin 2x ss and 1x dd? Garrote dmg is super high. Or 1x ss and 2x dd
spice surge
In what way can subterfuge be better utilized in raids if 6/9 bosses you prefer the other talent?
onyx raft
1x ss
spice surge
Besides, MA is a lot better than it sims
Because the sims for it are scuffed
It often uses garrote in the MA window
knotty nymph
But on start of rotation (ma one) u need to open with garote, rupture ?
onyx raft
The problem with MA is that its RNG based tho, however like i said before, if you like MA/Sub, just play what feels best for u, and find ways to utilized it for the fight you are doing
spice surge
Oh yeah your variance goes from 3.3% to 3.4%
knotty nymph
Thank you for advices brothers by daggers
lone junco
@spice surge wot
onyx raft
:^)
lone junco
I feel like the MA vanish round is pretty strong. have seen some great peaks.
spice surge
Which is essentially nothing, when your average goes up by more than what the variance brings
steep obsidian
i wonder how ma does on reaping packs with echoing
i guess the window isnt big enough for it to be huge
little osprey
The only use I've found for MA is stacking 3xEcho Fan to cheese epic battlegrounds....
with flying daggers talent
tops dmg every time
steep obsidian
i think i want to try it with the fok cloak in timewalking for the lolz
well i guess i could just use shoulders there and not bother with ma
spice surge
If you're gonna meme like that then just pick hidden blades
MA doesnt do much for EB
since the waves already crit
steep obsidian
yeh
little osprey
well yes
steep obsidian
but dont ou have to crit to proc it though
little osprey
if you're stacking fan traits, you would go the increased fan dmg talent
the pvp talent requires crits
spice surge
well you do, but having 3 seconds every 120 seconds, including wasting cp for it
little osprey
wait
little osprey
my bad yeah
spice surge
A huge portion of EB's power comes from the increased fan damage rather than the proc itself, so MA isnt as impactful as it might seem
little osprey
if you stack echo and take master though, it compounds your damage
knotty nymph
Highest rated rogue on rbg ladder have that :-)
spice surge
But you would only use EBs in an aoe scenario or in pvp
little osprey
You literally, stealth, sprint, cloak, get amoungs the most enemy players as you can, then dodge->fan fan fan fan
spice surge
And in both of those you need subterfuge
mystic charm
Im looking at the master assassin opener on ravenholdt, where you vanish with no CP. Do you not wish to load up 5cp and vanish to unload envenom ?
little osprey
I could really tear through a dungeon, but you'd want a ML or Underrot teeming situation.
The burst is stupid, and you'd hope to have an afflic lock with you for bosses. It just makes the whole thing too complicated and you'd rather go vanila talents that boost single target
It could really tear***
spice surge
Idk what you are talking about now, are you saying EB is good? Because yes it is
Are you saying MA is good in dungeons? Because it sure as hell isnt
little osprey
Not in any way at all
but it also compounds EB, so what are we working towards if EB is good
You're saying EB is good enough in it's own right
Do EB proc crits give CBPs?
spice surge
No
Im saying that if you do MA you will not have enough energy to use fok after a little while on aoe
lone junco
yeah. the fokfokfok open is memes g g g is gonna be king for any cleave in this tier
little osprey
I would take scent of blood (not even bad in this situation) or Incite the pack over EB
If I went EB, it's specifically to cheese an absolute ton of AoE, which I would use for crits to get ruptures up
lone junco
for M+ goal is to stack crit. 35 standing with 50+ with buffs up.
spice surge
🤷
lone junco
and why is aoe on waves cheese? it is literally the goal.
little osprey
and following from that, I would take MA
lone junco
ok. nvm
verbal mantle
that conversation tho
mystic charm
sounds like your selling snakeoil tbh
little osprey
the conclusion for my line of reasoning is... don't end up with EB.
little osprey
which is almost impossible now
verbal mantle
little osprey
I'd take incite the pack, and focus on building dots instead /shrug
strange python
I have played around with many traits and I got stuck for.
3xSS, 1xTC, 1xEB, 1xTtk :) it is nice AoE and ST and nice prio:)
lament dove
how do you even get close to 70K+ aoe with scent and incite the pack...? and how is scent compatible with MA anyway?
little osprey
well you'd hope not to take that either...
It's M+ until you end up with double dose
spice surge
Would you pick double dose over eb for dungeons?
lone junco
First you garrote, then you garrote again, then you garrote again.
spice surge
If so you are the most missinformed guy i have ever met
little osprey
yes, and shrouded is very powerful in dungeons, because you reset every 30 seconds
lone junco
DD would be ok, if it is on the same piece as EB or SS and the ilvl is high.
little osprey
It also gives you some burst at the start of a single target fight
which is also good for subterfuge, MA is good with EB
but MA is not good.
spice surge
Except that it is for ST 🤷
lone junco
little osprey
it becomes prohibitive when your secondary stats are getting so high, you don't need the 50% crit for 3 seconds
EB does literally nothing for most boss fights in mythic plus
you are without an azerite trait
next wolf
vagrant plinth
I've been trying really hard to follow this conversation but jeez
lone junco
seli - "a combo of SS EB and Twist are good right now."
youre welcome. do that
I will say, I enjoyed swapping back to TB/PB
steep obsidian
lol well im glad i try not to comment when i dont know jack shit
wary ice
On that topic: my gear has way too much haste for m+
lone junco
prob
wary ice
I'm sitting at like 15% haste with ~20 ilvl drops on average to stat better
I just leaned really hard into it
wary ice
I've simmed it but I dont trust the dungeon slice completely cause I know its not super accurate w/ CT and mastery value
lone junco
slice is a good start. it doesnt have the zombie waves.
if you are doing high keys, youll have a better intuition anyway.
little osprey
lets get it straight, I haven't played an epic bg with spare cheese azerite since titan residuum. I haven't touched EB since, because I thought it was garbage then and I still do. I haven't looked at it since.
wary ice
I thought i had my simc code, but its old
lone junco
you talking PVP? cause I dont know any pvp players in the past 5 years tbh.
solid nova
@wary ice Is twice not enough 
solid nova
Yeah your frequency on the pings i get tells me that
wary ice
Sorry
little osprey
You don't do attempt pvp weeklys?
steep obsidian
don't even get the decent one on horde
little osprey
what is real
strange python
Okey so I have a, possibly, stupid question and I will try to explain it correctly... Overwhelming power... Can it proc on itself? What I mean is can it reproc while it is active and you get full stacks again? If So, everything is fine... If not. Are you not, seriously, better of doing a cancel aura macro after a pack so you have a change to get a full proc on next pull instead of having to start the pack with a lowstacked Overwhelming power? Or are you better of with the lowstacked going into the pack, hoping for a big one right after. My thinking is that you rather have a fullstacked OP in the beginning of a pack instead of getting a new one at the end. Having it in the start assures you have the haste for the entire pack on a more consistent basis. Or I am just completely wrong here? 🤔 🤔
steep obsidian
probably overthinking it
uncut burrow
Feels like the sort of question that means you're micro-optimizing above actual proficiency level
little osprey
yeah try not to be better like that
uncut burrow
Meaning there are probably other, bigger-impact things that will make more of a difference.
vivid bone
Doesn't it have a proc per minute cap anyways?
little osprey
also don't ask very interesting questions like that
solid nova
@little osprey If you cant contribute constructively, please dont.
steep obsidian
its interesting
little osprey
sorry I'll gather some firewood for the next roast
steep obsidian
but i dont know enough of how it works
to even comment
if it has an icd you are probably hurting yourself clicking it off
uncut burrow
It is, yes. Academically, I'm also curious. Pragmatically, it's likely not a high priority to focus on during a run.
sturdy python
According to wowhead it's rppm based so cancelaura would be a waste
uncut burrow
Does rppm reset when combat drops?
sturdy python
Shouldn't
ripe nimbus
This is also something u can easily self test if ur that curious
strange python
@sturdy python sorry I don't understand
vivid bone
RPPM = Real Procs Per Minute
sturdy python
To prevent weird situations pretty much all proc based effects since cata have been ppm. Essentially they are limited to a certain amount of procs in a set amount of time
Wowhead usually has the info, the amount is usually affected by haste also
ripe shell
Do you guys pop vendetta on pull on the rastakhan fight?
strange python
@sturdy python So I would basically just cancel an aura without having the possiblilty to get it again within a certain time. Meaning the thing I asked doesn't work at all, and you are allways better of just having it up and running freely? 😃
plush remnant
I do. You should have it up for Bwomsandi
ripe shell
@plush remnant alright, I didn't know if maybe ppl use it on rasta once the adds fall
plush remnant
Depending on how long your group takes to kill him. If you use it on pull you can fit in more throughout the fight.
sturdy python
Basically @strange python I have no clue if dropping combat restarts ppm so you could test on a dummy but I don't think it does
lament dove
I have the Ruinous Bolt / EB chest from residuum
maybe it's better to use EB on mythic Grong for adds?
winter moss
straight up: no.
royal lantern
why would you take EB for grong....? you should focus down 1 add anyway
dark crag
3 ss 100%
honest mica
Depends on affixes but 3xSS is a good start for either
3xEB would be good for fortified weeks 2xdd 1xnp or some TC for tyrannical
I tend to run raid traits for tyrannical
little osprey
??
glass tusk
hi guys i really need an advice. Im trying to sim myself for mythic grong fight and trying 2 options: 1 boss 1 add and 2 boss 1 add. And im having a hard time figuring out which traits would be better
blissful tide
Yeah you aren’t really cleaving the boss shouldn’t and won’t be near the adds
spice surge
Every other minute, adds respawn 2 mins later
hollow stone
(So just sim default sim)
glass tusk
my rl wants all the mele to be on adds
strange python
take 1 shrouded with a single target setup, vanish and get garrotes and ruptures then nuke the prio add, that seems to be the common strat for assa
blissful tide
I mean first set of adds if you have SS you can vanish garrote both adds but other than that
You shouldn’t taking echoing or other aoe traits
glass tusk
yeah i tryed to raid without SS foe the first time ( cause it sims higher with my gear) and rotation really feels shitty
hollow stone
Disagree. But you do you
strange python
Pretty much every fight has some form of cleave so SS will be good in most situations. If you prefer it then use it 😄
spice surge
Except champions, opulence, conclave, mekkatorque, blockade and mythic jaina
Yeah every other fight SS is good on
hollow stone
Disagree w that too but ss is close enough to pure st that its viable so yea, if you personally cannot perform without it, use it
Agree @spice surge
spice surge
Or well, guess SS is good for padding on champions
hollow stone
SS is great for champs since you tank adds on boss now for max cheese zerg strat
1 ven before boss dies
Yaaaay
glass tusk
here is my ST top gear and ss sims 1.5% lower than my best gear. But gets higher on cleave add fights
is it still worth it?
sturdy python
Probably not for grong
hollow stone
On grong, i strongly stand by "go your st build"
sturdy python
Likely won't get ss value on add and boss
cobalt pelican
just assess in your brain how often you will get multiple garrotes assuming you're using vanish on cd (or at set times, if you know your fight length)
blissful tide
Go ST for grong
glass tusk
grong have a 2 adds usually side by side
marble hemlock
adds spawn every 2mins, so vanish lines up perfectly for it (first wave comes ~20sec into the fight)
spice surge
^ SS is really good for grong
marble hemlock
if you struggle with killing the adds quickly, go for SS, if you dont, go ST
glass tusk
and most of the time i can have a 2 garottes up with vanish
marble hemlock
you can usually vanish, garrote grong, step add1 garrote, move add2 garrote and get triple ss+subter garrotes out
hollow stone
Yea. If your group isnt killing adds fast, yea, ss becomes way more valuable on that boss. Agreed
marble hemlock
but add-dps rarely is an issue
glass tusk
our adds dont die fast and my garotes having a full duration on both
marble hemlock
well, they dont have to die fast, do they die in time?
as in
does the first one keel over right as you wanna use the first orb?
glass tusk
yes
marble hemlock
then do whatever youve been doing so far :p
hollow stone
Then during your prog it would "probably" be better to run ss if you do what seli said and get the 3 garrotes off on boss/adds
It will desynch your van vend but thats ok for a first kill
marble hemlock
it wont
first adds spawn 20sec in
so right as you wanna use first vanish anyway
and then every 2mins (on mythic)
hollow stone
How not? Yea but you wanna vend boss and when you go to 2nd add set you wouldnt wanna vend boss then swap add
So youd vend after adds die imo
marble hemlock
so its already perfect sync, basically, you just wont be able to use vendetta+vanish on boss, youre gonna pop vendetta before the add-spawn (or after)
blissful tide
No your vendetta finishes as adds die
marble hemlock
so i guess ye
marble hemlock
wont be able to line up vendetta+vanish in the fight if you multi-garrote on add-spawn
glass tusk
ok i gonna try to go with SS for today and see the difference
hollow stone
Yea. First one is fine. Its the next vends that will be desynched if using ss van for afds
Adds*
marble hemlock
2nd add wave spawns 2:20 into the fight
so if you pop vendetta on pull and then on CD
vendetta has ~2-3sec left as the 2nd addwave spawns
duration, not CD
marble hemlock
ye
hollow stone
Just not ideal
glass tusk
and one more question. i have a scent of blood and unstable catalyst on the same ring
marble hemlock
also depends a little on the strat of the guild, do you kill both adds at the same time or focus on one and then the other
hollow stone
I just wanna emphasize what seli said: van/g on boss, step to add 1/g, g add 2 before subt fades
Gotta be quick fingers
marble hemlock
but in any case, SS is nice on grong for sure, but its not gonna significantly help kill the boss, its mostly a mechanics fight
glass tusk
cathalist sim higher but i often find myself running out of the spot with the bufff
hollow stone
If youre good at staying in cata, its great. If youre not, i guess go sob. But sob is not good for st
glass tusk
not really cause we have to avoid mele pool from grong
and everytime i have cat pop i have to move
hollow stone
I did use sob for a couple days for st when i had no better option, so its viable. Just not great by any means
glass tusk
i looked at the logs and im having abour 30% uptime
marble hemlock
might be worth suggesting to split the melee into 2 or 3 groups of 2-3 players each, that way theres less damage taken and stuff like galecallers/catalyst doesnt get fucked up that often
strange python
sob is not awful on grong, helps a little with prio add anyways
glass tusk
thats what i thought
hollow stone
Yea. Sob isnt terrible. But its not something you seek out for raid
glass tusk
well i dont have a lot of options right now )
inner pecan
SoB useable on Rasta too if you wanna pad P1 and intermission
glass tusk
il try this build for today
hollow stone
Yea. Exactly, thats what i mean, i used sob when it was my only option. Its alright
marble hemlock
seems good, yep
inner pecan
I swear Nothing Personal is borked in sims
strange python
It's just the execution that matters at this point, your build is more than good enough to do well
inner pecan
atleast extra stacks of it seems to be
2 stacks of NP simming as 3.7% of my damage yet over 100 pulls on M Jaina it's averaging 6.6% of my dmg
glass tusk
ok il give it a try, thanks for all the good advice and explanation
hollow stone
So you think the extra np stacks are under valued by sim?
inner pecan
yes
hollow stone
Could make sense. Id still trust the sim. But the part of np that doesnt stack is the E regen. And 1E/sec really isnt that much in the grand scheme of things
inner pecan
Noticed it when it was telling my Rezan's Fury was simming 150 DPS higher but I was noticing 1 stack of NP doing like 3.2% of my dmg and 1 stack of Rezan doing 2.3%
marble hemlock
i mean youre simming higher than me before i get mekka chest last night, so your gear definitely wont be an issue 😄
hollow stone
Are you basing it just on jaina?
inner pecan
naw
hollow stone
Cause jaina has a lot of downtime
inner pecan
Just the only sample I had where I had lots of pulls to make an average
didn't wanna look at a single pull
hollow stone
True. Just be careful w looking at jaina for that. Jaina has lots of downtime which means the cd of vend is kinda reduced (in a sense that if you are chillin for 20sec with no option to do dmg, thats 20sec closer to your next vend)
Does that make sense?
hollow stone
😎
inner pecan
i agree with what you're saying but I still think the trait is borked
esp. bcz we don't get to intermission every time over those hundred pulls
and 3.7% to like 6.5% on my WCL is a huge difference
hollow stone
Yea. Like i said initially, its def worth discussion. I dont think we'll get an answer. But do keep in mind what i was saying for a fight like jaina where theres a ton of downtime
cosmic pier
just punch a dummy and test it?
inner pecan
here's a full normal clear I did yesterday, all 9 bosses
hollow stone
You brought up a really good point of discussion tho, whether the sim is borked or not. "The value of np increases if you have forced downtime"
inner pecan
5.64%
spice surge
Yeah it definitely is higher ingame than simc
spice surge
My sims has DPE (damage per execute) at around 58k, but my vendetta did like 70k most of the time
between 90-100k with bl
hollow stone
Maybe mastery?? I didnt think traits scaled off our mastery but who knows..
hollow stone
But the sim should account for that, you'd think
Also, thx for clarifying that. I didnt think they did :/
hollow stone
Yea. I think thats a good plan
hearty juniper
Yo! I got some questions, first off all. When u pop everything and go to town, and u get 5combo points, shood u use Toxic blade or ? since u will cap on Combo points
dull osprey
Use TB before your first envenom (whether you cap points or not) so that you can get a second envenom in on the same TB window
glass tusk
is the heavy/light movement option in raidbots work with catalyst and galecalers? Cause it gives my the same results as patchwerk
blissful saddle
Your bleeds can snapshot at the haste when you stand in GCB and continue moving
blissful saddle
My bad on incomplete info :(
spice surge
Nothing snapshots except exsang haste and the increases from subterfuge/nightstalker (so not the stats you had, just the +percentage stays)
hearty juniper
Anyone wanna see on my logs what am doing so wrong?.p
feels like my dps is good but my logs says its super shit xD
dusky moon
logs for what?
spice surge
Just post em here and plenty of people will give advice
primal gazelle
parasing green is generally considered super shit
hearty juniper
yeah... had some fights yesterday with like 20 % or something
and when I get high its like 50%
so imo thats pretty shit
marble hemlock
2x scent traits arent gonna be that great for singletarget
and keep in mind that on hc youre gonna compete with a lot of 405+ ilvl people on their splits/hc clear-runs
who are taking the top 20-30% by default
dusky moon
yeah... take off a ring or trinket and you'll parse in orange ilvl%
doing about same damage
at the moment it means nothing
hearty juniper
so im doing fine then?
dusky moon
top 3 dps in the raid group? hell yeah
bottom 3? may be a problem
you have another rogue in your logs
see what they have/done differently
strange python
Another thing you can try is using wowanalyzer
Not amazing but offers little tips that you can work on
hearty juniper
ye saw I could use my vanish more and Toxic blade more
yeah I know im like top 5 for the most but when I see I do like 20% of item lvl or whatever it says I start to wonder
strange python
ilvl logs don't mean that much anyways, from what I saw of your champions of the light kill, you did the most damage to the boss itself, meaning you are actually doing the correct focus damage assuming you guys are just zerging the boss
crystal vault
overwhelming power sims pretty good, is it worth in raid? or not easy to obtain many stacks?
dusky moon
the good gear pieces with correct traits is what's not easy to obtain 😃
strange python
The primary traits are what matter the most, but yes overwhelming power is better than alternatives in most situations from my knowledge
or at least for single target situations^
crystal vault
i got head with envenom/ss, or DD/envenom and thinking whats better for jade. both sims pretty close but on the DD one is overwhelming and then sims 300 more. i guess 2x SS is the choice
gleaming zealot
dunno if this is the right place for this question, but is it possible to get shadowmeld into stealth to 100%? i feel like its random, sometimes i can stealth after shadowmeld, and sometimes it doesnt work, tryd to look for some threads but didnt find to much
hollow stone
For mythic jade? @crystal vault
dusky moon
if you're trying to sim, just get azerite trait IDs and just do a few combinations to see how they play
hollow stone
@gleaming zealot meld gives you ss (if using this trait) but does not give you subterfuge. Meld will let you stealth out of meld outside of boss combat. So if you are in boss combat, you cannot meld as a "2nd vanish"
cold meteor
Why between T22 & T23, void elves become to one of the worst race to a top2 for Sin in sim ?
gleaming zealot
ok thanks ! @hollow stone
hollow stone
@cold meteor race is such a minimal dps difference that its not worth worrying about. If i had to make a guess, maybe its because void elf changes into a good horde race during that part of the raid. But honestly, dont even worry about it, dawg
cobalt pelican
void elf racial scales with gear while others mostly get their damage from '1% x' which is.. less impactful with more gear, right?
- the sim has changed quite a bit
it's negligible anyway
crystal vault
@hollow stone yes for mythic
hollow stone
Monk has way higher prio than mage in mythic so its likely best to run just 1ss (if available) and then run st to pump into monk. It may not get you that huge parse, but doing your job on the boss leads to higher chance of a kill @crystal vault
crystal vault
ty
hollow stone
As a PSA since it was discussed last week: sin rogue is not good for ruby on opulence. Make your rl aware!
inner pecan
it's not good at keeping it up but it's one of the worst classes for add dmg with opal
So depending if your group needs more add dmg you might have to take it by default tbh
primal gazelle
i dont think theres any class thats "good" for ruby lol
just stick it on your lowest ilvl/dps player
inner pecan
it's not about being good for ruby it's about being good with opal for add dmg
But at this point if your group can't kill adds then 🤷 probably a bigger problem
primal gazelle
ive never been to any raid within the past few years of raiding where killing adds was ever an issue, especially burst aoe ones, simply because everybody LOVES to pad
dapper bough
!gcb
sturdy python
In pins
hollow stone
Ruby stacks from abilities used only; not auto attacks. There are times with sin where you take no action for 2-3 seconds. This would result in ruby falling off. Better to put on high apm classes like warr, ol rogue, hunter, blah blah. But famo's points still stand too
Yea. Thats true about the add dmg but it lets you pump into boss similar to sub on zul
Fok env fok env fok enc. esp if your group is good w topaz
hollow matrix
finally got a galecallers, im guessing you might not want it macro'd to anything just in case, but i was wondering what you professionals may advise
hollow stone
I bind to vend and have a separate keybind for it too
dusky moon
well, you may want some control over when to use it
don't want to waste it with the tank pulling the taget boss away right after your macro triggers it
... my usual story with the poison bombs
grizzled trail
does deadly poison ticks stack ruby stacks
dusky moon
I don't think so.
when the golem sprints out to the final room, you may need to sprint and throw a few knives to keep the stack up
that's the only time when you risk the stack drop
grizzled trail
yeh. was thinking more for when dropping liquid gold
or spreading poisons/bleeds to adds
lone junco
@spice surge "hasted NP" do we expect just 1 stack to increase in value or all 3x?
if it is anywhere close to TC, then the dmg taken penalty may not be worth after all (in ST)
spice surge
All 3
Since its the damage that scales with haste
The energy is unaffected by how many ticks there are
lone junco
i wonder if that will rip any mastery stack weights back to haste then.
I have 3dd 1np 1tc 1ss. could easly have 2 np.
ember saffron
yo guys quick question, its possible my rupture miss target? Sometimes twice in row.. How to avoid that i though its not possible 
hollow stone
Miss, no. But if you cast from the front of the boss it can be parried. Just make sure youre always on the boss' back and youre good to go
ember saffron
its weird cause i trying right now on mobs, and im in stealth , cheap shot, garrote, rupture miss, rupture ok ... And i just be behind the target 😦
i dont see the miss thing but just its not on the target
hollow stone
They cant dodge while stunned so it must be something youre misclicking or something, not sure then
ember saffron
thats the reason why i trying you guys 😄 because i dont get it
spice surge
do you have rupture out on your stealth bar?
Since youre still in subterfuge when trying to rupture,
peak harbor
Is using TB on 5 combo points waste of dps ?
spice surge
no
Or well, compared to using it on 4 yes
But compared to using envenom and then tb
Its better to use tb first
peak harbor
And should i starve my energy before using it TB ?
ember saffron
@spice surge thats it dude, it cant be use while subterfuge 😃 Thanks man / im newbie rogue 
spice surge
It can, you just have your bars setup so that you cant
ember saffron
@spice surge absolutly true 😃 once again thanks mate
strange python
is there still the garrote bug with the trait?`
fair blaze
Nah
strange python
nice
sterile spire
Ive been playing assasination rogue for a couple of weeks and ive gotten to 393 ilvl equipped. However, I was wondering how I Can improve both my raiding and especially m+? Is outlaw better or is sin the Best spec atm? Ingame name is Snedigpede and Im on the Kazzak realm.. Big question is whether to stay sin or swap to outlaw for more aoe? Thx in advance from the newbie rogue 😉
(If I stay assasination, which traits do i go for, for an allround good combination(pvp,raid and m+))
waxen vine
I run 3x Dose, 2x trech, 1x twist (all 415 pieces). You reckon I should swap the head piece to shrouded / (throw on 400 ilvl shoulder for another shrouded) on Mythic Jfm. Or am I best off just sticking with Master assassin?
hollow stone
For parse, run ss n spread g's. For first kills, just focus on monk (so go full st build)
Monk dmg is much more valuable than mage dmg
@sterile spire no such thing as all round good for sin. The closest thing we have to that would be shrouded suffocation. For st raid you want double dose, nothing personal, treacherous cov., twist the knife, shrouded as general guidelines. But for m+ you want eb, ss, sob, and ttk depending on what youre doing. On high m+ keys, sin will out perform OL but from the sounds of it you arent pushing high keys. On low to med keys, outlaw is better than sin, again, generally speaking
normal ridge
[Tricks of the Trade] focus macro pls
primal gazelle
@sterile spire Outlaw & Sin are both top meta specs for M+ currently. Depends on playstyle, outlaw is more flexible in terms of traits, while sin requires 3 EB traits to fully optimize aoe
waxen vine
@hollow stone Just looking for parse. What about Grong? Are jfm and grong the only shrouded fights?
hollow stone
Champs if zerg strat, jfm, grong, MAYBE rhasta (just for parse purposes)
Grong is a maybe tho. Depends how fast your group kills the adds
If youll get full g uptime on both adds and the boss, it should parse higher
Maybe opu too for parsing but i wouldnt bother on that boss personally
vestal wren
champs is just undertuned, the fight is a joke
hollow stone
Yea it is lol
Our kill last week (without zerg) and a semi-hardcore guild was under 2 mins lol
vestal wren
i assume you could use sub rogues to push the killtimer down
but i doubt you find enough sub rogues 😛
hollow stone
Lol, for sure
I think im gonna hella cheesemode this week... multiple ss, exsang, lust on pull. Mmmm
vestal wren
sub rogue is with 0.26% of all dps the lowest palyed spec in game
hollow matrix
yea bring drums just in case someone doesnt like the lust on pull strat. that'll teach 'em
😄
hollow stone
Always @hollow matrix. How else am i supposed to get lust when getting a 5 proc (if playing OL)
hollow matrix
xD
hollow stone
Yeaaaaa. Rip sub
vestal wren
😃 have fun (lower frost one is frost dk)
hollow stone
But at least OL is good now.. we have 2 specs, yay!
Rogue buddy in the guild did play sub last week on champs. He did rip it up pretty good
hollow matrix
does lust snapshot actually? we have some less than punctual designated lusters (lusting after garrote opener).. and i never actually looked to see if my dmg was less because of that or just simply less haste for the first bit of the ticks
vestal wren
sub is not bad
hollow stone
Still behind me but ahead of the other sin rogue
hollow stone
The only things that snapshot are exsg from the haste when its cast, subterfuge, nightstalker and i think thats it. So you can snapshot a dirty exsang on champs pull if you lust on pull, pop gcb, and lol at the huge burst
vestal wren
i am not sure the haste snapshot on exsang is intended
hollow stone
Probably not. But its definitely exploitable for parsing :p
karmic ingot
I’m pretty sure the haste snapshot on exsanguinate is an unavoidable side effect of how the ability is implemented.
tiny arrow
What do ppl think about Hidden Blades for +10 and above keys? Just way less valuable than CT or?
karmic ingot
It snapshots the number of remaining ticks on each DoT and cuts the duration in half. They could probably change it to simply double the number of ticks on the DoTs by adding a 100% haste multiplier to them and that could be dynamic with haste like everything else. It might also be a slight buff to the talent which I don’t think anyone would be upset about.
hollow stone
@tiny arrow i havent played around with hb. Ive heard mixed reviews in this disc. Personally, if im not running ct, i run pb. And lately, i have only run pb. But that could be a byproduct of the group i run with not really needing me for reaping
Although a nice pb proc on reap does some good deeps too
tiny arrow
Ye, a nice PB proc is pretty nice
karmic ingot
My M+ gear has 3x EB, 2x SS and 1x SoB currently. I can’t see myself running anything other than PB with those traits.
hollow stone
Thats my set up too (except 2 sob instead of 2 ss, sadly). Thats my feeling about it too
civic palm
Also, inverting the math on Exsanguinate would be a nerf as portions of DoTs can easily fall outside of buff windows > _>
karmic ingot
SoB is still pretty good. Although once I have enough ruptures to not care about energy, I always hit FoK x3 before doing another rupture or envenom to get more damage out of my EB traits during EP buff.
That’s possible @civic palm but you also have to consider the opportunity cost of spending fewer GCDs on DoT maintenance as well as the extended period of extra energy regen.
civic palm
The regen would most likely be nerfed as having double regen for 30 seconds Rupture is too much.
karmic ingot
Actually, I think you’d still get the same number of ticks inside the buff windows, aside from what you might lose due to haste snapshotting. Pretty sure it would be a buff in all but the most extreme cases.
Possibly, or they could increase the CD to offset it.
Exsanguinate is a cool talent, but if it wasn’t for the fact that TB is almost entirely useless in AoE, I don’t think exsanguinate would ever compete in its current form. I wouldn’t mind seeing a buff.
fluid mist
!guide
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination Guide: http://www.ravenholdt.net/assassination-guide/
civic palm
But it doesn't need a buff in its current form, 1 talent being better in ST and the other being better in AoE is fine.
Since there's no "flavor" of Assassination anymore.
fluid mist
Feels so strange to straight up vanish after vendetta in The opener while playing ma
Also losing The extra cp from ss garotte is such a qol downgrade
civic palm
Seems fine.
karmic ingot
For the most part, I agree. But it’s only better in AoE by virtue of the other two options being completely useless in AoE. It’s technically a single target talent.
MA opener feels great once you get used to it.
civic palm
Well also due to it increasing NRG generation for more FoKing being more than you'd think, as shown by the jump in Mastery value you get from taking NP as a trait, even in AoE.
hollow matrix
is there a way to see in warcraftlogs what our current secondary stats are at any given point in a fight?
maybe not the best place to ask, but just wondering the fluctuations of my haste/crit
karmic ingot
Does the poison damage from NP scale with mastery?
vivid nova
if i dont have any shrouded suffocation is it even worth running subterfuge or should istick with master asassasin
civic palm
The energy generation is increasing the mastery weighting from DP procs from harder FoK spam.
Also there should be some shifts in traits as there was some TC done on the NP trait DMG component not simming correctly.
fluid mist
Without ss i’d guess ma is the best bet but Sim it to be sure
vivid nova
should i just sim 5min patchwerk?
karmic ingot
That’s interesting. Was it simming too high or too low?
civic palm
The DMG was way too low.
karmic ingot
Ahh.
AMR has valued NP higher than SimC since it was introduced. I usually went with the SimC recommendations though.
I don’t currently have any NP traits though, but it was performing well when I did have it.
vivid nova
When simming for ur Raiding set , do you guys use patchwerk or?
civic palm
Yeah NP performs very well for me with 2 of them.
hollow matrix
for the last 3 bosses, and they are usually long fights so it might not change much, but i like to sim for roughly the length of time it looks like it will take to kill @vivid nova
civic palm
inb4 I am stuck with these potato darkshore pieces > _>
vivid nova
@hollow matrix do you always wanna sim with Patchwerk?
hollow matrix
for the last 3
hollow matrix
the others it will greatly undervalue SS since adds
karmic ingot
I love my dark shore chest piece. It says it only heals from enemy corpses but every time we wipe on prog I end up sucking the souls of my guild mates to keep my alive way longer than expected 😃
hollow matrix
the others, if u wanna parse, me personally, i like using 1 or 2 SS at least. Unless your raid is obliterating adds on a fight like opulence for instance. In that case, just go patchwerk
I'm not a god of this class or discord tho i guess, where someone like fuu are apple and others are
i'd listen to them over me all day
feral glade
does shrouded suffocation still work out of stealth or no ?
sturdy python
No
vast forum
it never did
civic palm
o _O
strange python
question, on ravenholdt with master assassin it says vanish tb mut envenom, why dont we do it the legion way , vanish envenom mut envenom
toxic scroll
royal lantern
@strange python we do it that way...?
twin kite
Which potion is actually the best one?
royal lantern
agility
twin kite
Okay thx
carmine lynx
how many envenoms is it ideal to cast in the toxic blade window ? and does it change or matter if i got 3 x DD
spice surge
4 is absolutely ideal but only happens if you crit everytime
But 3 is more realistic, 2 is not too bad either
carmine lynx
and is it worth refreshing garrote in the toxic blade window ever ? i know rupture is a no go
spice surge
Ideally you'd refresh them before
scarlet sequoia
whats the best trait here, ss or dd
prisma monolithBOT
BfA Simulations:
Herodamage: https://www.herodamage.com/rogue/
Bloodmallet: https://bloodmallet.com/index.html
scarlet sequoia
yeah i know was just wondering
sims are not always correct
not rly any pure st fights in this raid so just wanted to ask
spice surge
Except almost all of them are
scarlet sequoia
what
spice surge
Sure, theres downtime
scarlet sequoia
what raid are you in
scarlet sequoia
oh well dd it is then
hollow stone
Rhasta isnt st if you wanna get that dank parse (and stay upstairs). But that is not ideal for a kill
hollow matrix
it is
hollow stone
Rogue downstairs is super strong cause we can reset our stacks w cloak instead of running to the safe zones
hollow stone
Yea. For mythic that seems like the go-to. Very true
spice surge
Probably not for long
You're gonna have to hold dps for quite a bit to get 4 portals now that people have gotten better gear
So people are probably just gonna say fuckit and send rogues and stuff down fairly soon
hollow matrix
1st world problems are a pain
strange python
is there a resource anywhere that goes in depth on the ST rotation. I obviously know that sin at an entry level is very easy but it would be nice to learn all the details when it comes to pooling energy and playing around tb
Does shadowmeld - Subterfuge work? Or shadowmeld buffed garrote?
yes
shadowmeld into stealth
Anyone know how useful that is in practice? Thinking about changing from human to nelf
civic palm
Useless on bosses, you still get Shrouded Suffocation from Shadowmeld but no Subterfuge.
strange python
But that’s still 1 more buffed garrote, no?
civic palm
From SS ye
visual quartz
its a 3p garrote with shadow meld it seems
strange python
So if I’m running 2 SSs it could be good.
civic palm
There's more value but not enough to be huge, unless you are in dungeons and can basically get another Vanish from Shadowmeld.
desert vault
So on lower keys 10-12s is Blood Rite prolly better than SoB?
civic palm
Nope. Haste is still devalued in M+ due to # of targets with bleeds on them, something that strengthens SoB.
visual quartz
whats everyone thoughts on apothecarys concoctions. only running a single DD trait and most fights during my clear they were even.
coarse quartz
can someone explain exsang to me?
it consumes seconds on my bleeds
do I let the bleeds drop or can I refresh them to normal pandemic times?
sturdy python
It takes your current bleeds and cuts their time in half basically
Do not refresh exsang bleeds until they run out
Cuts the time left in half but they sitll put out the full damage in half the time
coarse quartz
cool thanks
quiet parrot
Do traits stack? Like if you have 2x double dose or 2x heed my call?
strange python
Yes
patent sparrow
Usually only the dmg portion will stack. Not % or chance of something happening
red plaza
usually its the damage that stacks for traits. Traits like Shrouded Suffocation will only still give you 3 combo points no matter how many you stack
quiet parrot
yea i just sim my traits in multiple setups
think i have the best setup for what i have now
spring iron
!azerite
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination Azerite Season 2 changes: https://bit.ly/2U86I7o
coarse quartz
jealous
rigid mango
I'd sell one of my kidneys for that shit
frozen karma
2.3% upgrade in dps, no biggie