assassination

[lost horizon]

Never hurts to give details

[quick ice]

Trust me when I say that in my experience that people struggle with that "simple"math .

[lost horizon]

And you can't ever really assume what people know, there's complete newbies in here asking questions just the same as higher end players

[languid horizon]

Yeah of course, i appreciate the thoroughness 😃 - people should be able to do maths with %'s tho :/

Literally multiplying

[patent topaz]

turns out jaina is easy on hc when your raid has working traits

[quick ice]

Should and can are very different ☹️

[languid horizon]

Very valid point haha

[real bay]

people should read the guides but do they

[languid horizon]

THEY SO LOONG! kidding, i did, but i swear it says nothing about pandemic anywhere

[lost horizon]

Even in the exsang section?

[languid horizon]

Says "Vanish when Garrote hits 5.4 seconds or less when talented into subterfuge" which lead to my questin, i can't find further details, but i might have missed it?

Or i should have figured myself, nonetheless, it's solved 😃

[lost horizon]

Yeah so I guess not explicitly, but that's playing around pandemic

[languid horizon]

Yeah didn't realize it was a thing

[lost horizon]

There should probably be a fundamentals section or something for players new to the spec

[languid horizon]

Never played a DoT class, i suppose it applies to all of them?

[lost horizon]

Yeah

[languid horizon]

In that case it's quite fair it's not there i guess

[lost horizon]

Snapshotting is also something you need to be extremely careful about

For sin, only a couple very specific abilities will snapshot

Every other damage increase effect is applied dynamically

[languid horizon]

Not in the guide either i suppose?

[lost horizon]

Snapshots: subterfuge, nightstalker, exsang, shrouded suffocation

[languid horizon]

if so, can you list the abilities

oh thx

[lost horizon]

👍

[languid horizon]

I meaaan, that's quite impossible to play around tho?

[lost horizon]

No

[real bay]

envenom buff also pandemics but that's not very relevant

[lost horizon]

Snapshotting means your bleed is ' empowered'

[real bay]

I'm quite sure

[lost horizon]

Envenom buff gets pandemic

Elaborate planning buff does not

Some other buffs will too, like RTB

[real bay]

yep

[languid horizon]

Ah, thought u meant it snapshotted on stats, my bad

[lost horizon]

For snapshotting, you would want to let an 'empowered bleed' fall off entirely rather than refreshing it in the pandemic window

[languid horizon]

Yeah, i get what your saying 😃

[lost horizon]

And you'd want to apply the empowered bleed at max or close to max pandemic (like the vanish use you quoted earlier)

Exsang is unique in that the tickrate snapshot

[languid horizon]

wat

[lost horizon]

Uses your current haste at the time of application

So if you're using galecallers boon, a haste trinket, with exsang

[languid horizon]

Oh yeah, you did mean it the way i thought, partly

[lost horizon]

You should use the trinket before hitting exsang

If you're using them together

[languid horizon]

Luckily i only have 2min cd trinkets atm

Nice and easy

[lost horizon]

If you get an on use with haste and play exsang

Just get into the habit of haste buff first

[patent topaz]

gcb is so good, sims higher than 400 mekatorque and 400 alch stone

[languid horizon]

If you macro trinket+ability it wont work?

[lost horizon]

Sure, but macro so that trinket occurs first

[languid horizon]

ability=exsang

[lunar yew]

my 385 GCB sims higher than 400 kimbuls and 420 mydas talisman (PepeHands)

[lost horizon]

But I wouldn't recommend using macros like that

Better to get used to separate button presses

In case you ever need to separate them

(ie, one has a longer CD, and you want to hold it for a dmg increase phase)

[patent topaz]

I kept my 410 mydas for bag ilevel. Replaced some low ilevel gear yesterday and now i'm 400 equipped. Still using 380 gcb because its so good

[languid horizon]

yeah well, if it matches it matches 😉 - i can play with whateve tho

[lunar yew]

420 mydas felt real good as a 40 ilvl increase to my dice but it makes me sad that it sims lower

[lost horizon]

Mydas is doodoo

[lunar yew]

i opened that chest and cried

[lost horizon]

Last tier I got a 395

[patent topaz]

I yelled fuck off at my screen when I got mydas from the first s2 chest

[lost horizon]

First trinket I got this tier was a 415

Yep

Feels bad

Bags ilvl and the smallest prayer that it may one day get tuned up

[lunar yew]

couldnt have spent my titanforging luck on the dagger nope had to get mydas

[patent topaz]

this week im pretty excited to try outlaw in m+, got decent azerite now. Hopefully guildies will run some this week even if the affixes suck

[lost horizon]

Chadlaw shreds

[lunar yew]

ive seen some outlaws shred, almost enough to make me consider trying it despite rng

[lost horizon]

It's worth trying

[lunar yew]

i just cant stand RTB

[lost horizon]

It's inconsistent, but good play makes your output overall consistent

[patent topaz]

think my outlaw gear is higher ilevel than assa now, thanks to trinkets

[lunar yew]

but burst aoe for reaping is bonkers

[patent topaz]

3x deadshot + wits + whatever is going to own

[lost horizon]

I ran with 2 (good) havoc DHs in a ML last week

I did 32k, they both did ~26k overall

I didn't even have all new azerite

[lunar yew]

speaking of reaping on teeming how many echoing blades is optimal for this week?

[lost horizon]

Was still using a 375 single ring

And I think 2 385 new pieces

[patent topaz]

I only have 1x eb so im going assa for tyrannical keys only I think. I still top damage most of the time but its close

[lost horizon]

Outlaw is worth on tyrannical too tbh

If you go EB or SoB as sin you lose a lot of ST

[lunar yew]

I generally think 2 eb for fort and 1 for tyranical is good but was wondering if that remains true on teeming

[lost horizon]

Outlaw loses basically nothing from ST with traits

[patent topaz]

3x ss 1x tc 1x blightborne 1x eb are my assa traits for m+

[lost horizon]

That's probably a good set up for tyr

But outlaw will still trounce

[patent topaz]

2x415 azerite, 1x400

[lost horizon]

The bigboy pulls make outlaw so good

[patent topaz]

excited to try out outlaw, havent played it outside of islands / mother + zekvoz

[lunar yew]

im a little shackled by azerite 2ss 1 tc 1 eb 1 twist and 1 nothing personal : c

[lost horizon]

I dropped sin in M+ almost entirely

I don't wanna reforge off of DD and shit from raid

[lunar yew]

reforging is really tilting i agree

[lost horizon]

So I just have a baby outlaw set with normal azerite

[patent topaz]

I fucking shredded st in raid yesterday, 3x dd, 1x blightborne, 1x tc, 1x np

[lost horizon]

I had a rough start to the tier

[lunar yew]

thats the dream

[lost horizon]

I missed half of my raids the first 2 weeks

[lunar yew]

is it worth it to stack TC?

[lost horizon]

Slowly getting back on track

Sim it, but it's still good even after it got nerfed

[lunar yew]

i only have access to one right now unfortunately

[patent topaz]

sims higher than the engi trait by like 150 dps on same ilevel, all other traits equal

going to use that 415 engi helm for outlaw

[real bay]

how do you feel about unstable catalyst, got the ML chest off random 415

I'm thinking I won't be a fan of it in movement bosses

[lost horizon]

Kinda gross

But if it sims significantly higher worth on anything you can sit still on

[real bay]

yeah it's that or SoB

[lost horizon]

What's the other option instead of UC?

SoB is pretty bad ST

Idk, what's the sim difference between the two?

[real bay]

will see

[lost horizon]

I lucked out with my 415 chest

Got the DD+ttk chest w/overwhelming power

[bleak spoke]

imagine setting up to play MA, then realizing you still had subterfuge on after you vanished

screams

[obsidian girder]

is the mekka trinket good ? i hate playing with galecaller ._. i also have 400 cube and 400 spyglass but actually i want to use an on use trinket so i stay with the mekka trinket. worth it ?

[past vale]

weird thing is.....my sims is saying that my SOB helm AND shoulders that are both 400 are better than x2 SS at 385...both the 400s & 385s also have x1 double dose x1 twisted----so why would sim say x2 SOB at 400 is better than having even x1 SS at 385 and then just x1 SoB instead of 2?

[obsidian girder]

sim always say gcd but only if you can use it 100%

[lost horizon]

That's a judgment call you have to make

If you're bad at using gcb you might run into issues

@past vale link the sim

Tertiary traits can have a big impact

Stacking overwhelming power for example is pretty beefy

[bleak spoke]

Also depends on your talent setup

and your stats

[past vale]

i feel like i should use atleast just one SS tho? yeah both of the sob's have OP on both. one of the SS has OP but there is one that has crit

[bleak spoke]

1 ss makes your life a lot easier

[past vale]

it does

[real bay]

looks like UC is barely better than SoB , rip that then

much worse in reality i suppose

[obsidian girder]

how much energy are you guys pooling for the TB burst window ?

[bleak spoke]

SoB definitely the most underwhelming trait imo

All the rest of them have cool uses

[real bay]

the choice is between that and UC my luck

[bleak spoke]

Okay so for 3t where you maintain bleeds it’s better than tc

Just keep tellling yourself that until you don’t feel sad anymore

[sharp coral]

assassination is actually declared dead in M+ now

[bleak spoke]

You’re wrong

[sharp coral]

Echoing Blades’ Fan of Knives explosion now always critically hits. Its base damage has been reduced by 75%.
Developers’ note: This change allows the trait to scale with the talent Master Assassin in a more reasonable way. The total reduction of the Echo comes out to around 50%, with some variance depending on your Critical Strike chance.

[lost horizon]

SoB gets wild with enough targets

[sharp coral]

omegalul

[bleak spoke]

Dude that was a month ago

[lost horizon]

🤔

[sharp coral]

was it

[bleak spoke]

You’re actually depleted my friend

[chilly obsidian]

!wa

[prisma monolith]

Assassination WA's for BFA:
https://wago.io/HJUbINlV7 (Mizerok's Group)
https://wago.io/E1EB91OtM (Lokkek's Group)
https://wago.io/SyLUNGD4X (Sovv's Group)
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)

[bleak spoke]

That was the content of the day of nerf

[patent topaz]

this happened the 1st day after it came out

[real bay]

[sharp coral]

holy shit

my bad

[bleak spoke]

When ppl walked into motherlode and walked out with 70k overall

[sharp coral]

i want that

[bleak spoke]

It’s still possible

Well not overall

[lost horizon]

I mean if you're trying to pump that hard

Go outlaw lmao

[bleak spoke]

But you can slam on some packs and some traps

Reaps

[sharp coral]

i got 415 shoulders with ss and echoing blades yesterday and chest from conclaive with those traits

[bleak spoke]

Autocorrects to traps

That’s actually so appropriate

[sharp coral]

i'd much rather reroll my class than reroll a buff on outlaw

[bleak spoke]

Cuz everyone thinks dungeons are about reaping now when it’s frequently the easiest part of the keys

[lost horizon]

Up to you, but outlaw slams every pack and every reap

It's nasty

[sharp coral]

not really i think it depends

in prolonged fights i think assassination outdpses outlaw

but it doesn't have the burst of an outlaw

[lost horizon]

If blizz cared about m+ balance outlaw would get nerfed at this point

[bleak spoke]

I wish they didn’t remove sub from the game

[lost horizon]

Rip

[bleak spoke]

My siege and shrine keys feel so depleted

[sharp coral]

@gusty kestrel thats similar to what im running

except neck lvl 37

lmfao

[lost horizon]

I'll mess with echoes once I care enough/have enough spare azerite to goof with

But outlaw pumps with old 375 azerite lmao

It's absurd

[vast forum]

I have the exact same traits @gusty kestrel

[sharp coral]

im running ss eb on 415 shoulders and 400 chest and ss twist the knife on 400 head

[real bay]

have so many azerites don't even remember all

[warm harbor]

anyone have an idea of champions of light where the toxic blade nature dmg buff isnt applied?

issue*

[sharp coral]

i got 98 parse on champions of light today

was epic

[real bay]

I've had them get parried and it still applied, just didn't do damage ,

or it was a bugged WA

not properly checking the debuff

[sharp coral]

@gusty kestrel your ui shows your traits on gear

is that a part of elvui shadow & light?

[light kestrel]

Does TC have diminishing returns beyond the first? Or is it 345 agi per trait?

[sharp coral]

it is azeritetooltip thanks 😃

[visual quartz]

!azerite

[prisma monolith]

Assassination Azerite Season 2 changes: https://bit.ly/2U86I7o

[spice surge]

@light kestrel afaik there are no traits with diminishing returns at all

[warm harbor]

@gusty kestrel thanks for that!

[light kestrel]

Gotcha, thanks!

[spice surge]

Every traits healing/damage/stats always stack and the other effects never do

[light kestrel]

rip, if I swap to TB/DD I can gain almost 2k dps ST

[patent topaz]

I sim >23k now, the dream

[real bay]

soon 22k but I'm not even 400 tho

[bleak spoke]

i'm gonna sim myself on gear compare with nice trinkets for some motivation i think 😦

still using a construct ovecharger and a 380 galecaller's after like 2 months

[strange python]

can anyone explain me how it cans happen... i sim for raid .. and i change my gear so i get 21800 dps with 402 GS.. but i have only 15% haste.. i mean wtf ? Mastery is my 2t. best stat.. and 21800dps with 402 gs it a bit low right? i mean.. i get 95er log on Grong HC but only a 40 log at my item level.. it is possible i have a big mistake in my gear or how can i change it?

[patent topaz]

its probably traits, I sim 23 150 at 400

[real bay]

traits and sockets

trinket perhaps

[quick ice]

Yeah 100% traits.

[strange python]

yea i have shitty traits .. its correct... https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/mjPtNGxRBrZ6THVv#fight=4&type=summary&source=33

but why i need so much mastery?

i like to understand this...

[quick ice]

MA likes mastery

[strange python]

i have simmed subterfuge to... and MA simms higher.. but Mastery doesnt matter for this sim. It was the best for both

[shadow gyro]

@solid nova, @sturdy python, @stable pine, @spice surge - parses went from 25 and lower to 50-70s just from the advice today - raid lead pugs from champions to conclave kill in 5 hours

[strange python]

if i search other rogues with 402 - 404 itemlevel and shitty traits like me.. he alwayse have crit/haste > mastey.... its so confused

[real bay]

doesn't really matter what other use you have to sim top gear and go by that

I mean I'm using versa mast cloak and haste mast wrists even tho I have both as crit haste

cloak as lower ilvl

[strange python]

mhhh yea but it make so less sense for me... i realy realy like to understand how it works...

[lament dove]

the stats are very close, there are little differences in stat worth, so if e.g. you lose 150-200 stat because you change an item, it can easily happen that your best stat changes

[solid nova]

@shadow gyro Glad to hear mate

[humble crane]

no shrouded feels energy starved 😦

dunno why

[quick ice]

shouldn't make a different on ST

its 1CP/min equivalent

[real bay]

it's the opener

[strange python]

no shrouded is a completly different gamestyle .. but energy starved ? not on ST

[unkempt tangle]

What feels very uncomfortable for me with SS is the desync you get between vanish and vendetta

[humble crane]

Yeah I know it shouldnt feel different

But it does which is weird

energy wise I mean

[unkempt tangle]

Which delays vendetta by 25sec and feelsbad

[humble crane]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/tNKR7Fu7TsNeZpknkGMvRZ

Dunno if I like the change for 250 dps =/

[solid nova]

@unkempt tangle You do that even without SS though

[rose perch]

not nearly as much if you play MA though

[icy ember]

not nearly as much if you play MA? im a fledgling asn

and i run MA

[strange python]

When should I use CT. I have 3 SS and 3 EB. Should I use CT in m+

[stable pine]

You have 3 SS and 3 EB? Which GM are you sleeping with?

[strange python]

HMC on 2 of the items xD

Swap my last SS trait with the third DD , take MA instead of Sub ans swap my daguerinthe back with twist the knife and its a huge upgrade ( around 500 dps) and no cd delay anymore

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/b5viK2zv7qaLh4YHgkq7Y8

Pls help with the CT shit. Simming is all over the place

[solid nova]

!ct

[prisma monolith]

There is no specific week or affix that makes one or the other more viable.
CT vs PB is mainly down to your group, the dungeon itself and your pull sizes, with PB naturally having an edge in boss fights.
It's mainly the combination of affixes and dungeons that favour one or the other. High Tyr KR/Temple favour PB in general, due to low pulls and harder bosses.
In terms of Exsang vs TB; Exsang wins since it works well with SS traits and it's only 1 global on your priority target for some burst damage and extra energy.
TB usually locks you to that target to gain the most out of it.

[strange python]

Well if those 2 favour pb. Should you not use CT for the rest?

Based on what that says

[unkempt tangle]

@solid nova when I play MA (no SS) vendetta and vanish are sync ye

It feels so much better

[tulip mist]

jo guys, for the raid i can either decide to go 3xSS 2xDD 1xNP/1xTC. idk if NP or TC . like 1 NP is mandatory right?

[strange python]

Cause I just did a 15 shrine of storm and it felt like CT would have done better but idk

[fickle viper]

In shrine u usually only pull like 3-5 actual mobs

[strange python]

@tulip mist its more bursty

If I’m being the aoe clearer. Is CT better

[fickle viper]

U can CT and get 'useless' dmg on the extra mobs, but if uve got any aoe classes with u they will generally destroy the blobs alfwady

[quick ice]

1NP feels better than 0NP, but might not be better 🤷

[strange python]

If I’m focusing aoe

[fickle viper]

Yeah then go CT probably

But then I wonder what ur 2 Co dps are

[strange python]

Ok. My group has a desto and a arcane mage

[solid nova]

You'll get more of an idea from just experiencing CT vs PB in each dungeon if you're unsure

[strange python]

Ok

[tulip mist]

@strange python yes more bursty, but the mythic encounters take some mins so i wonder if overall 6-8 min fights. TC gains more value ^^

[fickle viper]

Destro and arcane

[strange python]

Because they outburst me ST currently

Until I get my Ilvl a bit higher

[solid nova]

Because you're 3eb 3ss and CT

[fickle viper]

Can't an arcane still just press AE and just aoe blobs/attendants tho?

[strange python]

I have 2 items with NP and DD for ST xD

True

I’ll keep being the aoe bitch

Lmao

[fickle viper]

Hmm k. Honestly I'd consider going outlaw then if u want that aoe dmg consistently

And if u van live with playing the spec

[strange python]

FUUUUUCK NO

I hate outlaw religiously

And 2 htc

😉

No flames for me 😦

Not yet anyway

but assa on explo weeks are bullshit.... if you dont have 2 orbs destoryer .. outlaw it for that realy good

Since they removed combat. Outlaw can fuckoffsky

[soft cargo]

How highly do I value SS? It sims 3.6% less on patchwerk, on jadefire it's going to be better for sure, but what about champs/grong?

[placid dawn]

3.6% less? are you using subterfuge?

[soft cargo]

yeah, if i want to use SS i have to lose NP

[strange python]

@tulip mist yeah but if your in a progress mind and in MM sometimes you have to shutdown a target asap and in this case NP is great ( Like the jaina s wall )

[unkempt tangle]

On grong it's quite strong in mm to zerk the 2 adds. CD sync perfectly with the pop.
For champions it's just padding

[soft cargo]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/w4332fc2YspPeSw97V3tEf

[placid dawn]

Well, the problem there isnt just that SS sims a bit lower

your SS piece also has scent of blood which is terrible for ST

you also lose an overwhelming power to a blood siphon

not to mention the 10 ilvls lower

[soft cargo]

I'll just drop it I think

[strange python]

!logs

[vestal wren]

not sure what !logs should do

[soft cargo]

:lulw:

[strange python]

I dunno. Guide how to read logs? There was one once. I thought there was a short command. Haha sorry ;)

[spice surge]

Generally if you post a log here somebody will have a look at it

[vestal wren]

iirc there was a paragraph mentioning logs in a old guide

you dont need to be sorry, just wanted to know what you expected 😃

[strange python]

Ah ye. Well I do shit dps in raid. Like I know what I am most likely doing wrong.... but I don't get how people can do that much more than me... I hate it

[patent topaz]

get good traits, dont overcap cps and energy, spam everything on cd gz on orange

[solid nova]

@strange python https://www.wowhead.com/how-to-use-warcraft-logs-to-improve-character-performance

[vestal wren]

best bet is to post logs and ask for feedback

[solid nova]

Long read but very detailed

Ah, but you can link your logs if you prefer, plenty of people read them 😄

[strange python]

Thanks @solid nova

Well I am overcapping CPs like an idiot due to world lagg and button smashing + being bad at raiding. And I am applying rupture outside of pandemic. I have bad uptime on EP. I dunno... I know what I am doing wrong in raid, I allways do good in M+ but in raid I fuck up so much :s so i know what i do wrong but don't really know what to do about it. "Practice" I guess. Bfa being my first expansion raiding

[solid nova]

I mean the fact you know what you're doing wrong is a good start

Breaking bad habits will be down to practice yeah

Maybe some decent WAs?

[patent topaz]

play slower ♿ spec

[rose perch]

slower spec than sin 🤔

[patent topaz]

there was supposed to be a comma

[rose perch]

ahhh lol

[strange python]

I have WAs that track Garrote and Rupture and EP. Including red text when pandemic but ye. I guess practice

[patent topaz]

you dont need to spam

[soft cargo]

you don't need to smash buttons on sin, you can mutilate then give yourself time to react to see if you reached 4 cp, for pandemic i suggest memorizing the timers and/or making a wa that indicates that it's time

[red turtle]

Hey. I just got a shitty azerite chest and i don't understand how Raidbots sim the traids. can sb explain why i shoud use TtK over NP ?
Here is the sim https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/36p6e1rQ2wwgJJSiNEUHVd

[fluid mist]

while we are on the topic of logs. I have a question i parsed a 92 on mekka hc yesterday which is quite decent but somehow envenom was my highest damaging ability by quite a margin considering my traits that's quite odd. if somebody can take a look at this fight but also my logs in general tht would be very much appreciated!

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/3fxm1zcVJNFwvgXy#fight=17&type=damage-done

[soft cargo]

you linked a conclave log but asked about mekka

[rose perch]

true for both of them is that envenom was the top damage though

not surprised to see 2 points in TTK

that probably is why

[solid nova]

2 TTKs will probably be why

Alright Dratnos

[fluid mist]

ah sorry linked the wrong one then my bad.

[solid nova]

I'll go back to my cave

[rose perch]

get sniped 😉

[solid nova]

Too slow 😦

[strange python]

What do I even link if I link logs? My profil or like 1 boss? I don't have a full clear log for BoD

[rose perch]

1 boss pull is usually best

[solid nova]

^

So like Mosh linked

[strange python]

Well sometimes I do good sometimes bad. So I guess I link a bad one?

[fluid mist]

Any general advice regarding the other fights or maybe in general guys? If you have the time to take a look ofc!

[rose perch]

yes link a bad one

[solid nova]

Link the most recent 😄

[rose perch]

but not one where it's just cause you had to do mechanics

[strange python]

So mecha is a bad fight

Got it

[quick ice]

I mean it can be a good fight

if you don't get targetted

[real bay]

don't get gnomed

Or bombed

[bleak spoke]

anyone ever re-socket everything for mastery, take all poison-related traits, re-enchant, then forget to actually talent into MA?

sdjfodsjfoodifja

[solid nova]

Just Lettuce things

[bleak spoke]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/8kgPM6xGjhabKpdr#fight=5&type=summary&source=6 was just messing around in normal but i'm still shocked at how stupid it was ;-;

[lament dove]

I nver resocket, usually gear upgrades always circles back to haste being best...

[bleak spoke]

the mastery/crit gems are 10 gold apiece on my server 8D

[quick ice]

haste gems are weirdly expensive here too

[solid nova]

Vers gem? Fair enough

[lament dove]

if you socket the cheapest gems, you lose about 20-30 dps total

[spice surge]

@fluid mist You should be lining up your vanish with vendetta, always, you delayed toxic blade a little bit so you missed one cast (so not too bad)
Overall pretty good

I looked at the mekka fight in particular as you asked about it (and yes, i did factor in the intermission into the tb casts)

[bleak spoke]

i had that on because one of my healers was threatening to not heal me as a troll

figured i could live with feint and vial if it came to it with some vers :^)

[fluid mist]

Thanks a lot i Will try to line those up 100% of The time. Does that mean holding vendetta for a few moments until vanish comes of cd?

[spice surge]

Also, you should try to apply your vanish garrotes before using vendetta. Since the garrotes are 24 seconds and vendetta is only 20, and if you use vanish 2-3 seconds into vendetta you miss out on empowering the garrotes for 7ish seconds

yeah

Unless the fight will end before vanish is ready ofc

But not many fights are 2:15 long

[bleak spoke]

For fights that will end just around 2:35-2:40 would you just hold vendetta to line with vanish?

[fallow estuary]

can't believe yesterday acutally happend - i had the worst luck possible the first two id's with 2x full clears and 3 mythics down only simming for 18k

yesterdaya i went from 394 to 406

increasing my dps to 23k

the fck

[spice surge]

In that case you want to hold vendetta as long as possible while still getting the entire 20s on the boss

Nice easy 😃

[fluid mist]

Thanks a lot Eleem!

Very very much appreciated

[bleak spoke]

I feel like a lot of tyrannical dungeon fights are that length

Like enough for two vendettas but rarely for 2 comfortable ones

In fights that will last 2:30 would you just hold vendetta for the next pack after boss or just use it with normal garrote?

Like with exsang I mean

Places like waycrest

On the soul Goliath

Comes to mind

Or 3rd boss siege?

[red turtle]

is there a guide or something that can teach me how to use Mekkatorque trinket?

[bleak spoke]

A guildie was complaining that there’s an obnoxious sound effect when it’s fully stacked

Could be helpful?

The long cd and slight randomness of that seems pretty depleted if you want to optimize it

[red turtle]

jea i see the stacks and when it stacks up and down, i thought more like, when to use it perfectly

[quick ice]

just use it when its off CD and you're at max stacks

doesn't matter beyond that tbh

[red turtle]

so if i dont have ts rdy i just press it and it will be fine?

tb*

[spice surge]

yes

[red turtle]

hm okay, thanks

[strange python]

The problem I realize looking at my logs Is that I sometimes even fuck up the opener... Like what am I doing? Haha. Also I am dead some fights.

[rose perch]

something that helps some people is practicing rotation for a few hours on target dummies

[strange python]

I guess I have to do that.

[rose perch]

idk what other advice to give it sounds like you know the right thing to do, just gotta execute!

[hot snow]

heya can someone look over my logs and lemme know where I'm fucking up?

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/character/us/khazgoroth/jaznah

[fallow estuary]

Anyone who has a nice weakaura for tinker trinket?

[bleak spoke]

is there a good training dummy spot for like huge aoe

that place under the great seal only has 4 dummies clumped up 😦

[quick ice]

I think dalaran was ok?

[bleak spoke]

@hot snow your bleed uptime seems a bit scuffed

[rose perch]

@hot snow https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/f7ygR2LTP3cCdYHj#fight=6&type=casts&source=140&view=timeline I'm looking at this fight:
Your second vendetta should be held for vanish
You cast quite a few mutilates at 4+ combo points
You aren't using arcane torrent for energy ever
You could have squeezed in one more toxic blade cast probably if you used it on cooldown although maybe it came up when you were moving sometime
You didn't pre-pot or 2nd pot
You can enchant one of your rings

also with your setup you may find that master assassin would be better than subterfuge

[worldly ledge]

@hot snow I think u should get SS instead of 2 NP, u need more haste. Around 23%. More debuff uptime, synchronised vendetta + vanish

[bleak spoke]

can consider MA with your setup too

[hot snow]

blah. my simming has been telling me to drop haste but that might be just for the straight ilvl upgrades

[bleak spoke]

listen to sims

[real bay]

they are all close

[rose perch]

probably correct to switch the crit enchant to haste though and add another haste enchant 😉

[real bay]

there is no x haste to get

[hot snow]

I forgot about MA. having some fps issues atm so that's probalby the reason for the extra mutilates, and I've been trying to pool a little for tb

[bleak spoke]

the haste cap is at "this feels weird and unenjoyable" tbh

[worldly ledge]

Ok, there is no certain haste. I have 25%crit, 23% haste 29 master and sim tells me to get haste an mastery 2.1 haste 2.0 mastery

[bleak spoke]

i think there's a bit of a misunderstanding about the reasons to be pooling

like you're not waiting out CDS by spamming some filler like a caster

when you pool you're standing there autoing trying to get energy back

so when you hit your window timing you can do a bunch of stuff in your window that would have been spread out for it beforehand

[stable oxide]

Pooling is mainly for Elaborate plannign

[rose perch]

yeah the main thing is that pooling needs to be done before TB comes up, not after!

[stable oxide]

and TB

[bleak spoke]

especially with assa you can sit there with 3 or 4 cp doing nothing and then at like a ton of energy with TB coming up you tb envenom mutis envenom etc

[royal lantern]

the engineering helm on 415 has DD as trait? why did i not craft it faster 😮

[bleak spoke]

so you fit your envenoms into your TB window

as opposed to spreading it throughout

[stable oxide]

^and within the elaborate planning window

[hot snow]

I'll have to tighten the rotation up again. I've been pretty slack with raiding for a while 😦

[strange python]

Then that is a thing I am doing wrong. I am not pooling enough in raid. Hmm. Another thing then to learn ;)

[bleak spoke]

yeah clipping your EP will make it feel like you're magically doing a ton more

[hot snow]

how many envens should I be trying to fit into ep/tb?

[rose perch]

i think the benefits of pooling are often overstated though - typically if you fix all your other problems you'll be parsing high purple / low orange without any pooling

[stable oxide]

2 to 3 I thought

[hot snow]

A lot of the bleed drops come from bad timing with mechanics

[rose perch]

yeah if everything goes well you get 2 or 3 envenoms into the TB

[bleak spoke]

i'd say the biggest advantage of pooling is that you can look around and be aware tho

[rose perch]

although if you need to refresh bleeds in the middle of TB it's better to do that than either let them fall off or delay the TB and miss a cast

[hot snow]

but then I end up over compensating and updating too early

[bleak spoke]

and be like "i'll go back to doing stuff when it's about ready"

[rose perch]

yeah playing around mechanics is a difficult thing to do

[stable oxide]

High parses is mainly knowing the little tips and tricks on a boss

[rose perch]

i try to always be ready for the next boss ability if it targets me

[hot snow]

So I've been pooling to about 70 energy or should that be like 70% energy??

[rose perch]

with a plan for whether i'll update bleeds before i go or w/e

[real bay]

if you know you have to run away like on mekka just refresh all bleeds

[stable oxide]

I would say on Grong for example. Save vanish (when having SS) for the adds, so you can multi garrote

[hot snow]

Yea I've been trying to do that

[stable oxide]

High parses also rely heavely on how your raid kills bosses

[hot snow]

True but sometimes I haven't felt like they're alive long enough for a decent increase 😐

[strange python]

One issue I have is that I never do the same between pulls.. some I vanish Garrote adds, some i don't. Need to be more consistent I gueas

[stable oxide]

On Jadefire for example, doing bloodlust right after the multisidedstrike, and saving your cooldowns for that moment is most benefitial

[rose perch]

i think trying different things from pull to pull is good

and then settling on the best option

[bleak spoke]

haha that's funny, imagine anyone with a BL surviving multisided strike 4Head

srsly tho people literally turn into idiots

[vagrant plinth]

What exactly is the proper way to manage EP? Pool constantly to maintain uptime or is it that big a gain? I haven't been able to find a concrete answer, excuse me if it is a stupid question

[bleak spoke]

like people who i know are smart

[rose perch]

i like to call for a life cocoon before multi-sided strike starts and then afk it

who needs the dmg buff anyway

[real bay]

can you dodge them

didn't try

[rose perch]

yes but they have to be in the front 180 degrees of you i think

@vagrant plinth the only time i really think about EP is if i'm about to envenom and I have EP i'll wait until it's juuuust about to fall off

[vagrant plinth]

Ahh okay, thank you for that. I was of the same mindset but I'd rather be sure

[strange python]

I think one thing that I am doing wrong. Alot. Is that I refresh Rupture to early(before pandemic) to get EP Garrote instead of Envenom and apply Rupture lower into the pandemic.

[spice surge]

EP garrote?

There is no such thing

[quick ice]

I think he thinks it snapshots

[spice surge]

EP only increases the damage when the buff is up, when the buff falls of your garrote no longer does 10% more damage

[royal lantern]

that would make the spec far more interesting tbh

[quick ice]

it would make us like bad feral?

[royal lantern]

but feral is allready a bad sin rogue 🤔

[wispy iron]

quick one, I am sure it was discussed already, doeas the SS trait work with shadowmeld ? checking whether its worth to switch the race

[spice surge]

Sortof

[royal lantern]

when you shadowmeld you get ONLY the SS dmg bonus

not subterfuge, only SS itself

[spice surge]

In raids, in dungeons you can restealth and get full value

[rose perch]

dungeons outside of boss fights right

[spice surge]

(note that subterfuge buffs SS damage by 80% as well, so ss without subterfuge isnt overly powerful)

ye

[wispy iron]

ah ok I see

still ok for trash in dungeons : )

[real bay]

SS damage works regardless of stealth or not , do you mean you get the extra CPs with shadowmeld?

[rose perch]

you get the extra CPs, you just don't get the 80% bonus from subterfuge or the 3 second cast-from-stealth window from subterfuge

[vapid delta]

!MA

[wispy iron]

hmm, I was under impression that SS dmg boost is only from stealth ....

[rose perch]

yeah it works from shadowmeld too! it just doesn't feel like SS because it's half as strong because it's not affected by subterfuge

when coming from meld, that is

[quick ice]

shadowmeld is fake-stealth that sometimes counts as stealth and sometimes doesn't

[hot snow]

damn. just simmed and I should be using MA.

[vapid delta]

I'm looking at top mythic logs for BoD seems like if you have 0 SS , MA > Subterfuge?

[rose perch]

i knew it!

[wispy iron]

sure I understand that, was reffering to ertuu post

[vapid delta]

just came back to tryharding my rogue can anyone confirm>

[rose perch]

yes that is true @vapid delta generally

[vapid delta]

(FOR ST)

[hot snow]

Sims say yes

[vapid delta]

Is there anything else that comes into the equation regarding MA vs Subt

[wispy iron]

yes sims say yes, but I still get better numbers with 2ss instead of full MA

[vapid delta]

apart from the obious like bonus adds for SS

[rose perch]

minor benefit to MA is that your second vendetta/vanish can be a little sooner too

on some fights that means an extra vendetta which is obv very good

[vapid delta]

makes sense, ty drat

[rose perch]

drawback is there is some variance to it

that there isn't as much of with subt

because you might just not crit lul

[vapid delta]

how do we play with MA? where do we fit the vanis in for combo? full bleeds+tb up?

[arctic harness]

I got my first taste of spec racism yesterday, queued for a +11 with 400 ilvl and 1200 rating, guy asked outlaw? Told him I was Sin and BAM, declined

[rose perch]

in the opener, i like to go garrote mutilate rupture vanish toxic blade mutilate envenom

[royal lantern]

well, it was a +11

thats minmax content pal

[rose perch]

then in future vendettas you can just vanish envenom mut (hopefully) envenom

[royal lantern]

dh/outlaw/mage or gtfo

[arctic harness]

Apparantly yeah

[vapid delta]

Is that the same logic simcraft uses drat?

[wispy iron]

should be 500 dps boost, but overall I have the better dps with 2x SS in raid ... https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/kt9HhDE5rzxe5bQqByraR1

[vapid delta]

the opener is standard for TB outside of vanish

[rose perch]

some sources say different things

[vapid delta]

hm interesting

[rose perch]

some want you to do a vanish envenom mut envenom in opener too

but i prefer the TB one until you get to 100%ish crit in the MA window

either one is good though

[vapid delta]

ravenholdt guide says:

Garrote
Mutilate
Rupture
Vendetta
Toxic Blade
Mutilate till 4+ combo points
Vanish
Envenom
Mutilate till 4+ combo points
Envenom

[rose perch]

yeah the wowhead one uses my way and i think the sim profile does too

as long as you're using some combination of TB, mutilate, and envenom in your 3 MA globals you can't really go wrong tbh

[vapid delta]

does it change at all with lust?

interesting regardless

thanks for your wisdom Dr

[rose perch]

no although lust is worth holding cds for ofc

if it won't cost you a vendetta

and within your vendetta you can hold vanish for TB either before or inside the vanish

don't hold TB for anything though fire that thing off on CD

even at 4/5 cp

[vapid delta]

we use TB at 5cd?

thought that was only athing in arena for pvptalent proc

[pseudo finch]

wasting 1 CB with TB at 5CB isn't the worst thing in the world

[hot snow]

Well shit that feels so much better now with MA. Cheers 😄

[pseudo finch]

CP**

[rose perch]

yeah i'd read a lot of resources that said not to as well but it looks like both the sim profile and the method rogues are doing it when it comes up

[vapid delta]

I'll take aquick look at perfectos vods to confirm

but I appreciate the knowledge bomb

been playing too much outLUL

thanks again drat

[rose perch]

idk for sure either tbh on the 5cp thing, it's recent news to me too

[pseudo finch]

The question is if you wait to pool energy before a toxic blade could you have gotten an extra TB over the course of the fight

because it's a short CD

Hence it easier to just pop it on CD or if you already have 5 CP

[real bay]

yep, rather get more damage to envenom and not wait

5cp or not

sometimes you might do a low energy/not optimal cp TB but most times not

[vapid delta]

I've already seen 2 5cp TB --> envenom

so seems likely you are right drat

If any good log bois could confirm that'd be good (y)

but from a quick glance ive seen 3 5cpTB's so it seems that Dratnos was right all along (perfecto stream)

[rose perch]

ah yes right all along with the thing i also learned from that stream

[quick ice]

it does seem counterintuitive I guess

[tacit wing]

https://i.imgur.com/lUZrpla.png got this from a warfront 🤔

great game

really deserved that

[real bay]

you did good contribution

you won

[royal lantern]

crit over haste?

vendor

and not even a socket, wath kind of welfare gear is this /s

[real bay]

368 ilvl

[tacit wing]

LMAO

[vast forum]

How is it counterintuitive? Tb buffs envenom by 35% and each cp of envenom is 20% of its full dmg (iirc). So you're sacrificing 20% of a full envenom for 35% of a full envenom + earlier tb so less of the cd wasted @quick ice

[quick ice]

the instinct is to not waste the CPs

obviously the math works out

[vast forum]

Instinct is also to buff envenom :D

[quick ice]

but my initial thought is "god no don't waste CP"

[real bay]

envenom and poisons that it procs a lot more instantly after

[vast forum]

Aye

[bleak spoke]

huh there's some uncomfortable lines with 5cp tox blades for me like 1:15 or 1:30 into the pull usually, thought was just some inaccuracy way in the past of the rotation, guess it's pretty common then ;x

[vast forum]

I mean

[shut crag]

does the Nothing personal trait stacks?

[vast forum]

Our cp generation is random

[royal lantern]

the dmg yes

[bleak spoke]

i just thought that there has to be a way to make it so the garrote giving one cp fixes that

[vast forum]

Dmg does, energy no

[bleak spoke]

maybe there isn't 🤷

[vast forum]

No way

[real bay]

NP does quite beefy damage stacked with TB Vendetta and some mastery

[bleak spoke]

the extra envenom* does the beefy damage tbh

[royal lantern]

NP is good 1x, it loses much value when you stack it

[mortal meadow]

does somebody has a good gale callers boon WA?

[rose perch]

https://wago.io/BJXL91CL7 this is the one i used (modified it slightly to look like the rest of my WAs)

[mortal meadow]

thanks dratnos

[strange python]

So looking at top logs, and assuming people start to get good gear. 2xDD 1xSS with sub is the Best? 3xDD with MA Sims better but ye? Or am I completely wrong here

[fallow estuary]

Most ppl just have 1x SS thats why they go sub

(considering full ST fight)

SS gains alot of value once more targets then 1 come into play

the best (raid) combo is

[strange python]

So in BoD almost every fight then.

[fallow estuary]

tripple DD

2x TC

1x NP

(1st boss helmet - 2nd boss shoulder - mekka chest)

(in a single target encounter)

Also

SS value is not simply there as soon as you could possible hit one more target

you need to acutally gain value from vanish or pull

so Stormwall would be a bad example

technically yes - there are adds

[spice surge]

Sortof true, neither of those chest+shoulders have overwhelming power.
So technically having m+ chest and shoulders with DD+overwhelming power is better

[vapid delta]

any1 have a good poisons reminder WA?

[spice surge]

Its the best items that are "easily" achiveable

[vapid delta]

i am a little slow in the head

[fallow estuary]

(thats why i said best raid combo)

[spice surge]

Thought you meant for raid

[strange python]

Well I have 1st boss 415. 2nd boss 400. And then as chest, alla I have is a DD 390 or twist/SS 400 from conclave

[fallow estuary]

Is the DD single trait?

Then the 400 conclave is better

Maybe save 1725 resources to gamble a chest

[strange python]

The DD 390 Sims higher tho

[fallow estuary]

then you're good

[tall knot]

how bad is the hidden blades exactly ?, i'm stacking crit and using fok alot in keys, thinking about taking it

[fallow estuary]

then DD is just insane x) but on most encounters i'd use the SS in your case

but thats also because i hate opening without SS

[strange python]

Ye me to.... feels so scuffed

[fallow estuary]

Only exeption may be Mekkatorque / Stormwall

[spice surge]

Doesnt feel as scuffed if you're not using subterfuge

imo

[quick ice]

MA makes me sad because the shoulders were so much better

[fallow estuary]

I miss mantle ...

:<

[quick ice]

but I still like the opener for it more than for SS

[strange python]

Btw is the parse for m+ s2 any good? I realized one of the people I play with have logged most of our runs without me knowing. I am fine with It, but it feel nobody is doing it meaning it is "easy" to get "good" parse?

[fallow estuary]

M+ parses are kinda random imo

it so heavily depends on comb

and also you often don'T want to simply push dps

but control mobs - esp as a rogue

[strange python]

Well ye, but why not both? I just wondered it looked good that's Why:P got happy for a sec

[fallow estuary]

it simply no reflection of how good you acutally played

[vestal wren]

raid logs are somewhat similar

dps metric just means you did your best to get a high number, not that you played it correctly/good

[spice surge]

On a lot of bosses those overlap though, but yes, not every boss

But this raid also has an abnormal amount of "stop dps so we dont get whacky timings"

Which amplifies it even more

[vestal wren]

raids have the same issues as m+ logs

[vast forum]

Nah

[vestal wren]

patchwork fights dps metrics usually are decided by killtime and equipment

[vast forum]

M+ logs can be manipulated much more

[vestal wren]

i see ppl whiping raids bc. they where unlucky with mechanics

so i would say same applies to raid too

[vast forum]

You can stand afk for 6 min before last boss to use hero on it for a better parse

Or lust w/e

[strange python]

Well if I can trust the logs at all then. I do good in M+ ( I knew that a bit) and decent in raid, some bosses shit some good

[vast forum]

Dmg is far from the most important aspect of gameplay

[vestal wren]

iirc that shouldnt work as the dps is fightlengh devided by damage done

the classes that can very well pad on logs are burst aoe ones and execute classes

[vast forum]

But you're not fighting while standing around

Also, zul-style fight

[vestal wren]

the log takes the whole fight, not just your active phase

iirc

[vast forum]

If u do a lot of dmg as a non-sub spec, you're probably fully inting your guild's progress

[vestal wren]

well ppl hated the fight for exactly that reason

they couldnt push their logs

it went as far as nerfing the spec even further to make it less appealing

[spice surge]

This raid is gonna be even worse, since theres so many bosses where you can screw up timings if you have too much damage

Jadefire, opulence if you get unlucky and get all the blasters on one side, conclave and rastakhan

[vestal wren]

we already had a 1-2 min dps stop on opulance hc last raid

[strange python]

That's why I love M+. Full blast! ;)

[quick ice]

one side too fast fuu?

[vestal wren]

we where 13% to ~50 or so on melee side ye

btw. we had 1 or 2 ppl in raid who where on melee site not doing dps stop propperly to pad on logs

[patent topaz]

we actually wiped on conclave because we blasted too hard and everything lined up at the same time

[vestal wren]

tbh, we went in first week with ~380-85 average on hc and skipped mechanics on early fights

the whole raid is undertuned outside of the very late fights

first boss is close to 1 min kill in hc

and ppl dont even have mythic itemlvl

[spice surge]

First boss on mythic has been killed in 1:28

[vestal wren]

i mean by now even top guilds say the power curve makes no sense

[night vale]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/8FoerBiHj3yTSTn9RgQ4Ep

Can anyone spot anything i can do to increase my sim dps? i feel like its low for 405 ilvl?

[vestal wren]

Having the majority of bosses being "loot pinatas" doesn't make a lot of sense

get helm from first mythic boss, get a decent chest

[strange python]

Ye, that so insane

[night vale]

@vestal wren cheers! thought it was my traits tbh, so that makes sense, fingers crossed for the champs mythic helm

[quick ice]

Fingers crossed raid leader doesn't bench me for champs again

[night vale]

😮 sin is quite good for that though right?

[quick ice]

I got rotated to bring in trials on farm

Which is fair, but still

[vestal wren]

@night vale https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/8Q87jryytj7LmJhWnGh3nG

[night vale]

Thanks fuu 😃

[buoyant laurel]

guys may i ask u a dumb question?? When do u use toxic blade and when exsanguinate ?

[rose perch]

Toxic Blade often sims better single target, Exsanguinate is sometimes better in single target if you have some combination of high haste, multiple shrouded suffocation traits, and/or galecaller's boon
Exsanguinate also has the benefit in mythic plus of synergizing well with stealthed shrouded garrotes, as well as not requiring you to keep hitting the exsanguinated target for maximum dps like toxic blade does, which makes tab-rupturing better

[buoyant laurel]

thanks a lot

[idle ember]

What is everyone using to get across the monk traps on Jadefire more efficiently? I use a warlock portal if it's up and sprint then shadowstep a DH that skipped their way across. It's the only fight besides being Ruby bitch I can't seem to parse very well on and I believe that's the culprit.

[quick ice]

Not a dumb question, btw

I can't think of any way to go faster than that tbh

[rose perch]

There is a sneaky warlock gate spot that your guild can use to make it almost insta to get there

[spice surge]

^

I was gonna say shadowstep barrely makes it go faster since the portal basicly carries all of it

[rose perch]

https://youtu.be/cPRKGAH2M88 check like 2:33 in this vid to see it (don't mean to link my own content here but idk how else to show it)

[idle ember]

Yeah, I'm just a lowly Alliance so the pattern might be different. But I get the idea. The majority of the time I get so wrapped in adrenaline and/or the warlocks are so slow I'll get to the end of the first isle before a portal drops.

[rose perch]

For horde at least it sometimes seems like if you're running forward as it starts, you can get through the first ring before it activates

But ya idk how the specifics change for alliance

[spice surge]

I found an alliance video and the alliance seem to have an even better portal

https://youtu.be/dOMokmIzYj0?t=166

[rose perch]

Wow op pls nerf

[spice surge]

Not amazing quality, but i linked it at where the maze starts

[idle ember]

Haha. Yeah that's pretty legit. Likely the one I'm missing. I'll have to go through our stream later and see what's what.

Thanks.

[strange python]

question, anyone who watched perfecto from method, does he use tab targeting to spread dots or does he have quickcast on and just hovers mouse over them

[steep obsidian]

it would be mouseover macros

100%

[random scroll]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/h6LWRKtNdwb3HFQxM8TXtn

oof

[strange python]

Damn

[spice surge]

@random scroll Should probably swap that treacherous for nothing personal

Ok lol apparently np simmed like 65 dps lower but it sims like 50 higher for me with the exact same azerite setup

But then again, you have close to 0 mastery

[bleak spoke]

tfw i'm same ilevel but sim 2k lower

FeelsBadMan 🔫

[random scroll]

https://i.imgur.com/fpZtwIR.png

I might go NP with blockade chest

eeeh

mekkatorque*

[bleak spoke]

1 ttk probably super good tho

[spice surge]

The chest you have is better than the mekka chest though? 🤔

So why would you take the mekka chest instead of trading

[bleak spoke]

overwhelming power

[spice surge]

Since you literally have the bis chest

[random scroll]

good thing simulations exist to check before equipping 🤷

[spare dust]

Wait, rupture and garrote dont snapshot from EP?

[spice surge]

Nothing snapshots from ep

nothing snapshots from anything, besides subterfuge/nightstalker, which only "snapshots" the extra damage, not your stats

[spare dust]

I guess i'll do a lot more damage from now on. This makes everything so much easier

Thx

[bleak spoke]

doesn't exsang snapshot your haste

[steep obsidian]

yes it does

[spice surge]

well yes

[bleak spoke]

but honestly that probably doesn't mean too much does it

[spice surge]

Not really, its only slightly relevant if you're using galecaller

[bleak spoke]

yeh

[strange python]

Having 3x DD and TB is Galecaller worse? Than for example Dead-eye? The crit is nice on ST

[bleak spoke]

galecaller is hardly going to be worse than anything

[strange python]

Ah I see. Back to farming shrine Then! ;)

[steep obsidian]

if you can camp yourself somewhere for 10 secs its always goint to be insane

[spice surge]

Honestly, if you're gonna farm any dungeon hard it should probably be king's rest and not shrine

[strange python]

Plum is that strong?

[spice surge]

Because the trinket from kr is basicly as good as galecaller, but it also drops a good* dagger

Unless you have 2 415+ daggers with socket ofc

[vast forum]

I mean, shrine drops dagger too

[strange python]

Ye no. I have 2x 400 without socket

[spice surge]

And pugging shrine is a nightmare

Imo

[strange python]

I am not going to pug shrine. I'll just force my group to do It;) lol

Shrine + pug = instant death

[bleak spoke]

pugging KR ain't so great this week either

[fluid mist]

pugging kr in general is about as fun as catching herpes

[drowsy lodge]

Dear Shadowblades, I need your help. I've been simming my character using different setups, and according to sims I must use:
1x DD and TC (415),
1x SS or TtK and MC(385 all of them),
1x NP and Unstable Catalyst (400 both).
However, I believe single DD would not be very effective so I'm planning to try 2x SS (415 and 385) with 1 NP (400). The sim difference between two builds is very small in numbers. I'll post raidbot gear ss here. I'd like to hear your suggestions. Thank you.

[spice surge]

There are no diminishing returns on using only 1 DD

1 DD is exactly the same whether its the first, second or third stack of it you get

[strange python]

how does echoing blades stack?

[cobalt gyro]

Increases damage

[strange python]

but will there be extra explosions?

or just increased damage on them

like does the whole damage stack? like the fan of knives dmg and the extra explosions

[cobalt gyro]

The damage stacks on both portions

[strange python]

ok

[steep obsidian]

you want it this week if you are playing sin and want to feel better at the end of the dungeon 😛

[obsidian girder]

why you all always have around 25-30% mastery.. i have like 45% ._. although i have other gear with other stats ( same ilvl ). still playing Sub/TB (2x SS)

i have 22% crit , 14-15% haste

[strange python]

SS EB is best in m+. Every week.

For Sin ofc

[delicate crater]

better than SS TC?

[spice surge]

EB does more aoe damage than TC yes

[steep obsidian]

its situational not everything is about the overall some dungeons dont have huge pulls

not every week anyway

but i guess with reaping meh

but if you want reaping damage why not just play ol

[bronze kelp]

Even on pulls with 4 targets 3eb +3ss shines

[spice surge]

twist and tb is very good for assa as well, you will essentially be like a sub rogue

Lower overall, but can still be a faster dungeon

Depending on setup and pulls

[bronze kelp]

And not everyone likes the outlaw playstyle

[strange python]

True. But with teaming + reaping you need the high overall to be able to time the keys. I would say EB + SS + CT (in most dungeons) is best this week

[spice surge]

Depends on your group

[strange python]

+fortified

How tho? If you have lower overall the mobs will die too slow for you to clear. What do you mean?

[spice surge]

There havent been any high keys done this week yet, but the highest (+21) last week had an assa rogue without any EB at all

Same with the +20 siege

[strange python]

Hmmm

Last week was tyrannical tho

You want ST then. Not this week

[spice surge]

You will get more overall damage if you do reaping damage, but killing reaping 2 seconds faster isnt better than killing the mini-boss 6 seconds faster

Both have their place

[steep obsidian]

you can have overkill for reapings imo espec coz some tanks do insane damage to them

im not really a pro

[spice surge]

cough warriors cough

[steep obsidian]

^

[strange python]

I get your point. But to be honest I don't want EB only for reaping. I also take it for the pack damage. SS and Rupture+ EB with low Haste is insane damage. Throw in CT and you pump dmg every pull. Plus you have energy for every kidney shot you ever would want to cast

So you still have the utility :) I guess it is a preference thing :)

[spice surge]

If you're going for overall damage you might as well just play outlaw tbh

[hidden hollow]

outlaw

[strange python]

I don't get it. Sorry. But what do you mean outlaw? Why cannot a Sin do overall and still use all its utility? Why not both? Why even play Sin at all if you only use it for utility and ST when you can have all 3?

[spice surge]

If you're going 3x SS+3x Eb your boss damage will not be good, barring fight thats end exactly after your vendetta. The only utility that assa (with that setup) has that outlaw doesnt have is aoe slow, since gauge and silence can be considered fairly equal

[hollow stone]

Outlaw has 1 "useless" trait for st. if you run 3 eb, sin has 3. Simple as that

[spice surge]

Which is why i said it depends on your setup

[edgy wharf]

TB or Exh?

[jagged gazelle]

So this week we go as much ss and as much eb as we can?

[edgy wharf]

3xSS with Subterra and exh deal more than 3xDD with TB?

[strange python]

Well I see your point Eleem. Ill look at the comp I have. Still think I will be going the same, based on these few weeks with keys, sorry to say! :)

[crystal vault]

on Jade, does anyone know how Flamefist's Fireball works? On pull i always get the first

[vagrant patio]

When rocking 3 Double Dose and Master Assasin, does it make sense to open with Mutilate => Envenom => Mutilate => Garrote => Rupture? Or is the garrote/Rupture crit worth opening with Garrote => Mutilate => Rupture?

[honest vessel]

In our opener, does the vanish garrote get snapshotted with the last few secs of our vendetta or does the DMG increase drop with the vendetta?

[quasi pewter]

vendetta doesnt snapshot anything no

[static sky]

!azerite

[prisma monolith]

Assassination Azerite Season 2 changes: https://bit.ly/2U86I7o

[hollow stone]

@vagrant patio its possible that opener is better but we dont have the data to support yes or no at this time. For now, stick with the ravenholdt opener (g m r)

[vagrant patio]

@hollow stone thanks

[spice surge]

Its not, since you wont get energy from your bleeds

Bleeds are the higher priority to get up, otherwise you'll starve

[hollow stone]

Idk man, top parse on opu for sin has a weird ass opener

He didnt rupt til like 5th gcd or something

Id check it out

[marble hemlock]

top parse on opu oO

[quasi pewter]

yea not rupturing until 5th gcd is gonna be pretty bad

[hollow stone]

I know i know. But the opener was unique. I was confused

[marble hemlock]

cause you can do whatever you want on that boss

if youre just playing the boss properly, youre not gonna get a top parse anyway 😄

gotta get the giga-pad out, and on mythic you just need to get super lucky

and get 5-6 swaps

[hollow stone]

For sure. Doesnt make it any less strange

[marble hemlock]

makes it less relevant

[quasi pewter]

the opener is strange, but its not strange that it could be a good log so its not really relevant yea

[vagrant patio]

Always fun to try new builds and try to get them workin

[hollow stone]

Yea. Agreed. I just dont think we should dismiss the possibility of m env m being the best opener with 3 dd n ma. It probably isnt better. But its worth talking about (imo)

[quasi pewter]

what if your first mut doesnt crit?

rip energy

shit opener

[marble hemlock]

i mean.... sure i guess? but the fact that you only see it on a boss thats the definition of a pad-boss (if youre talking about high parses) and no one else using it on more st-oriented bosses

makes me question the time spent on actually considering that opener

[quasi pewter]

but i do use that opener on worldquest mobs

so

its great

[marble hemlock]

not saying it couldnt be better, its usually just that people need a bit more to go on than "top log is using it"

and "top log on opu" makes it even less likely 😄

[wary ice]

@spice surge RE: convo from 9:55 about Dungeon traits ; what would you suggest instead of 3x EB? (not disagreeing just curious)

[spice surge]

I didnt say not to use EB

Because assa basicly doesnt do any large aoe without it

[wary ice]

Let me rephrase the question, sorry

My codamage is havoc + fire mage

[spice surge]

Twist and tb instead of ss+exsang was the possibility for doing more prio damage

[wary ice]

I think 1xeb 3x ss is sufficient for add damage

Hm; maybe i misread what you were trying to say nvm

sorry

:^(

[spice surge]

dw

[wary ice]

I just like 100% agree with 3xeb = just play outlaw

really looking for an azerite set up that gives ass a niche over it

[hollow stone]

I wasnt trying to use the opu parse as gospel. Somebody else asked about the m env m opener and i said its probably not better but here's an example of where an unusual opener worked for that guy. I get what you mean tho, def cannot confirm it being good off of 1 pull/parse, esp on a boss like opu

[marble hemlock]

❤

run 2ttk @wary ice , play TB+PB and be the prio king that sub never could be

eb carries aoe well enough that you dont need to further invest into aoe by going CT anymore imo

[wary ice]

@marble hemlock like 1eb 2 ttk 3 ss?

[marble hemlock]

any combination of that works imo

can go 2eb 3ttk 1ss

1eb 2ttk3ss

dont think theres gonna be a huge difference

more ttk = more prio/st, more ss = more cleave on low-mobcount packs, more eb = more aoe

[wary ice]

not that it matters my azerite is asserite :^(

[marble hemlock]

kind of a "pick your poison" deal

pun intended

right now id probably go fewer ss in favor of more ttk/eb

since you dont really have the traditional 2-4mob pull anymore

[spice surge]

I mean, sub will do higher prio damage than people playing that

But assa will actually damage the other targets as well

[marble hemlock]

sure, but thats all sub has

[wary ice]

rip sub

😦

[marble hemlock]

assa right now has the capacity to fill multiple roles, and that flexibility is gonna be very valuable

[spice surge]

Its really wierd how most of sub's traits are basicly useless on aoe

[marble hemlock]

wouldnt say its weird, seems like a very deliberate thing

seeing how the archetypes for the rogue-specs are fairly specific, with sub being st/prio, assa being sustained aoe/cleave, and outlaw being burst-aoe

[spice surge]

Well then there should be traits that increase your prio damage as well as st yeah?

[marble hemlock]

dunno

[spice surge]

I understand why

[marble hemlock]

none of the traits we have in each spec

[spice surge]

I just think its wierd

[marble hemlock]

further cement that specs strength

EB makes up for the lack of burst aoe

the new combat trait gives it some good prio

but i do think that theyre struggling with finding good traits for sub

that dont push it over the top again, they seem to be very afraid of making sub the go-to spec for some reason

[warm geode]

using MA and TB is better to put tb inside vanish or just try env>mut>env?

[spice surge]

env > mut > env sims higher on average but tb > mut > env is less random

And we're talking like 20dps, so its basicly nothing

[warm geode]

i was doing mut>vanish>tb>env>mut

[strange python]

!wa

[prisma monolith]

Assassination WA's for BFA:
https://wago.io/HJUbINlV7 (Mizerok's Group)
https://wago.io/E1EB91OtM (Lokkek's Group)
https://wago.io/SyLUNGD4X (Sovv's Group)
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)

[spice surge]

Well thats basicly the same as the second one i said

[warm geode]

nope

u can lose cp

on ur way

2+4

mine is 3+2 dump then can get 4

[hollow stone]

3 gcds: 1 tb, 1 env, 1 m. Order is different but its the same 3 gcds and abilities. Go ahead and be nitpicky with somebody trying to help you

[visual quartz]

What about TB to 5>vanish>env>mut>env?

[spice surge]

Thats the first one i said

[warm geode]

@visual quartz that was my question

[indigo mulch]

Question, with MA without SS traits should you really open with rupture?

[visual quartz]

I dont play with MA but yeah Eleem that seems best

[indigo mulch]

Sorry i mean Garrote.

[warm geode]

@hollow stone man i wasnt disrespecting him, one way u can endup with 4cp the other is 0, was just showing the is a diference

[indigo mulch]

You can get 3 gcds during the MA window so shouldnt mut > rupture > mut be better?

specially since i have 3x double dose aswell

[dark crag]

Why rupture?

[spice surge]

I assume you mean envenom and not rupture, because rupture does close to nothing with MA

But envenom still does significantly more damage than mutilate, even with 3x double dose

[indigo mulch]

Don't you want rupture up to start regening that energy?

[spice surge]

Assuming you dont have like full 370 gear with 415 azerite

Oh you're talking about the opener, not vanish

[indigo mulch]

ah no

[hollow stone]

Opener is g m r; other MA's are (tb up beforehand) van -> env m env

[indigo mulch]

Seams like a waste opening with garrote and lose a gcd on MA window.

[dark crag]

[spice surge]

Delaying garrote means you get a lot less energy, and double dose is incredibly unlikely to proc

Unless you have envenom up

[visual quartz]

finally got 2 pieces with NP and DD on my raid set. Just with those 2 traits replacing 2 Twist I had my raid sustain dmg has jumped by 4k 😄 Didnt realize the strength

[hollow stone]

It sims higher. But like we talked about earlier today. It is POSSIBLE that m env m is a better opener, just unlikely

[indigo mulch]

Dosent that depend on how much crit you have?

[spice surge]

Double dose proc chance isnt based on crit

[indigo mulch]

No

I mean with envenom/mutilate crits

[ocean rampart]

Why do I get different Stat weights while putting same strings? Like on SimCraft it says Mastery>Haste but on raidbots it says Haste>Mastery, Which one should I follow?

[spice surge]

Because you have different versions

Likely you havent updated your simcraft, while raidbots is updated

[hollow stone]

Env m env/m (env if 4cp from the m, m if 2 or 3). Clearer?

[ocean rampart]

Ah makes sense, so I guess I'll stick to raidbots. Thanks!

[indigo mulch]

I was just curious about the opener.

[hollow stone]

G m r if using ma

[indigo mulch]

Yeps, thats what i've been using i was just curious if m r m g env would work better.

since you get the crit on mutilate.

[hollow stone]

I wouldnt be surprised if mut on pull becomes a thing again. But for now, nopers

[indigo mulch]

How much energy do you really lose tho?

by not opening garrote

You delay energy regen by 1 gcd but you gain more burst in the opener.

[hollow stone]

Youd end up delaying tb or vend tho, i think. So theres that too. It would be like m r m (2-4cp) g (3-5cp). So if you hit the 5 cp, youd then vend and either delay tb or use tb at 5cp. Which is not efficient. Just thinking out loud here, though

[indigo mulch]

Hmm

I mean it feels better opening with m env/r m

[crude pivot]

Hey guys, is there any reason to use toxic blade after vendetta? Can I use it before vendetta or it is dps loss?

[rancid bobcat]

Toxic blade damage itself is quite big

You'll want to boost it with vendetta

[crude pivot]

Oh, For some reason I forgot that tb deal dmg. So for exsanguinate there is no difference?

[hollow stone]

2 reasons actually: 1) what kaite said, tb hits hard, in vend it hits harder. 2) tb before vend means you use 1 tb window gcd for vend which means you may not be able to get a 3rd (or even 4th) env in the tb window

Same idea, vend before exsang means ALL exsang ticks are within the vend window, which you want

[strange python]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/pLgy5VVxs2t8bhBeozH9wf anyone know why my dps is so low?

[hollow stone]

Neck ilvl locking out 3rd traits is prob like ~1000-1200 dps right there. Then ilvl (obvious one). Trinkets are ehhh too

[steady wharf]

Trinkets aren't great, not all azerite traits

and I'd say 2 traits of nothing personal isn't the best, if you have another option on there it'd be worth trying to sim both options

[hollow stone]

So neck lvl, trinkets, ilvl overall, and probably stat weights but i didnt dive that deep into your stats

[strange python]

My stat weights are weird

[boreal maple]

no wep enchant also

[strange python]

Haste and mastery sim the same

[steady wharf]

Mastery gets better with double dose

[hollow stone]

Just keep grinding, my dude. The dps will come. Youre on the right track

[strange python]

I have only been playing for a month and I didn’t know weapon enchants are a thing?

[steady wharf]

Yeah, you'll be wanting to run raidbots for your stat weights, then enchant the top two stats to your main and off hand

you'll find them in the Auction house under navigation, so for instance haste is called quick navigation, crit is deadly navigation

[strange python]

Do enchants help a lot?

[final kayak]

yeah quite a bit

[strange python]

Mastery and haste sim at 2.2 each

[spice surge]

Seems perfectly fine

[strange python]

Aight thanks guys

[ancient path]

Anyone knows if u can evasion the coinshower on opulence?

[spice surge]

You cant

[slow mortar]

do yall run different trait combos for varying m+(10 and up) weeks? like 3SS+3EB for fort, 3TTK+3SS for tyrannical, etc

[sinful lotus]

Hey everyone, how accurate is the Dungeon slice section on Raidbots? It's telling me to use my 2SS +2SoB pieces (which i understand), but then it tells me to replace my DD + EB piece with a DD+TC. (And also to not use Crimson Tempest, and instead to use PB). Does that make sense? I don't have 3SS 3EB traits yet.

[strange python]

Btw @spice surge I wanna try out what you said before in M+. Me, DH, Mage DK. What would you go with your way? I can have for example 3xSS, 1xTtk, 1xEB, and then last either TC or NP? Wanna test what you said with less focus on overall

[tribal marlin]

Boss for just over 2 minutes (lust will be used for this boss)
4–6 mobs for 11–19 seconds
1–3 mobs for 26–34 seconds
4–6 mobs for 11–19seconds
1–3 mobs for 26–34 seconds
Continue alternating between large and small packs until the end of the sim

So basically EB will beat everything if you are simming constant 6-10 mobs pack but considering it give nothing in pure ST it might fall off with dunjeon slice

that what dunjeon slice do more or less

[spice surge]

I havent tried it, its mostly seli preaching it. But hes one of the best m+ rogues so i trust 🤷

You can scroll up a bit and read what he said

[sinful lotus]

Today?

[autumn stag]

ok so i've got an issue, Ive got some shoulders with SS on the outer ring, but on the "middle" I have Blood Rite or Scent of Blood, which one would you go? I just want opinions, not "just sim" :p

[sinful lotus]

Rough idea of how long ago?

[spice surge]

1½ hourish ago if you're talking to me

[strange python]

I saw that post ye. Hmm. I mean Garrote does so much dmg tho :) haha. Well I'll try. I did not see anything about stat prio with Ttk tho. Still Crit Mastery?

[primal gazelle]

im an extreme advocate of 3 EB in M+

i rather take a dps that does 30k+ overall vs a dps than does 20k

and thats the reason why everybody wants a dh/mage in m+ because they are insane aoe padders

[sinful lotus]

I just scrolled up and read what he wrote. Very interesting. Is there another way to Sim just trash to see how much AoE you can bust out? I've read somewhere in this discord that you could sim 5 bosses Add Cleave for 40 seconds?

[scenic nacelle]

On Mythic Opulence, which gem is your guild having you take?

[royal lantern]

ruby for me