we need DungeonSlicePro (tm)
#assassination
dark token
ruby idol
the next step in ascension after dungeon slice is feelycraft
marble hemlock
i mean we usually just do 6target 40/60sec sims for pure aoe
dark token
@ruby idol whats your dungeonslice sim out of curiosity
ruby idol
ive ascended
dark token
i think i should just do m+ fulltime
ruby idol
i sim 6t 1 min and then just ignore my sims
dark token
my gear is pretty nuts for it but meh for raid
marble hemlock
but those are really just for statweights, not trait/talent suggestions
ruby idol
and wear whatever i want
ruby idol
it could happen
marble hemlock
had a TD a few days ago, went out to respec, realized my fetid chest was on EB and not first dance anymore. woops, gotta play assa in TD 😄
dark token
what dungeons you play sub on @ruby idol
marble hemlock
super boring dungeon now
dark token
wcm? interesting
ruby idol
bout to start bringing it out in KR new meta
primal gazelle
how are your stat weights
ruby idol
i mean look at the wcm pulls
primal gazelle
still mastery king?
ruby idol
how could that possibly not be a sub dungeon
dark token
i havent done it in a while so maybe thats why but i always thought outlaw is beast in atal/wcm
ruby idol
and you p much needed sub to kill witches on tyranical 20+
ruby idol
i mean outlaw will look good on overal
but thats not how you chest keys always
like pumping dmg to maggots and hounds doesn't clear wcm in time
primal gazelle
dont listen to him
big numbers is the way to go
who cares about the chest when youre pumping 50k dps!!
ruby idol
Haha ya i mean it depends on what youre trying to do
Rogues role is typically to the dmg to the things that matter while DH mage boomie etc. Carry overall dmg
But in keys like below 15 everyone is just there to pad and thats chill too
marble hemlock
the way of the pad
is a long and arduous one
undaddy has strayed from the path
but he will soon return
marble hemlock
😃
primal gazelle
u didnt get your fix unless you play 3x eb with MA on tyrannical week
ruby idol
MA is a trap!
marble hemlock
😃
ruby idol
you only pad for 3 seconds and then you have no energy
ruby idol
it doesnt even pad as hard as 1SS with subt!
ruby idol
the garrotes get your ct out insta
and 3 bleeds for energy
for more fok with eb
trust
primal gazelle
im not gonna argue against the 2.5k+ rogue kappa
ruby idol
i mean realistically im new to rogue, still learning
focus kick macros carry to high r.io
ruby idol
theyre both useful for sure
primal gazelle
@trail hound under resources
marble hemlock
GIGACRIT
ruby idol
GIGACRIT
primal gazelle
my focus is always on my tank for tricks
too lazy to create a name one for everytime im with a different tank lol
ruby idol
make a different tricks macro 😃
wary ice
@ruby idol can i ask how your stat spread looks for m+?
ruby idol
for which spec bull
lusty gale
lust is is bl right? new to game
primal gazelle
yes
wary ice
lust=bloodlust or heroism yeah
lusty gale
kk thx
marble hemlock
ruby idol
im runnin 29 crit 8 haste 4 vers 37 mast rn
languid ore
Do Ally call it hero or ism
marble hemlock
wheres your gigacrit @ruby idol
languid ore
Uff
ruby idol
titanforging happend @marble hemlock feelsbadman
ruby idol
too many big ilvl pieces without crit
wary ice
Heres a better question i guess: is that 8% haste a preference you're trying to hit? or just maximize crit/mast/ilvl
cause all of my sims are telling me to gem for haste etc
ruby idol
maximizing ilvl crit/mast ya
primal gazelle
i run 3 eb
lusty gale
hold on i am have atm 21 haste is that too much for assa?
wary ice
@lusty gale this is for M+ not raid
HAste is baller in ST
less good in AoE since its energy regen is murked
lusty gale
so how much haste is enough haste for M+ then?
ruby idol
i also have a 395 gcb that i p much cant take off, so im really not focusing on haste at all
wary ice
I have a 340 i cant take off lol :^(
lusty gale
and how do you not lose on boss fights with dps?
ruby idol
the big packs in dungeon slice are too short to value crit/mastery enough
primal gazelle
switch all your sockets to crit
ruby idol
join us in feelycraft city
scarlet quiver
I was wondering whats better for m+? 2EB/1SS, I would imagine you still play subterfuge if you play SS? Wouldn't 2EB/1 Archive with MA be decent also?
ruby idol
ya i p much just take haste whereever it randomly just is
wary ice
and then my understanding is that Crit/Mast is also baller for Sub ST?
ruby idol
KR and Temple i swap in a haste ring
but i might start only doing that for temple
MA is a trap @scarlet quiver
ruby idol
sub rn has very close value for mastery agi crit vers in dungeons
primal gazelle
ill try 1 ss 2 eb subt tonight cos daddy said so
lusty gale
what do you mean MA is a trap?
ruby idol
with mastery being king by a bit
marble hemlock
subt/vigor is better
since you can just g g g ct fok r fok r fok r fok ct and then fok fok fok fok fok fok fok fok and watch your 80k dps go
ruby idol
MA stalls out after your 3 fok opener basically
wary ice
last question @ruby idol how muchs hould i value sockets >ilvl?
fast nacelle
3 ruptures shouldnt be enough to spam fok 😛
primal gazelle
daddy does like 20+ keys cos his mobs live a little longer
ruby idol
i mean its relative tho dayv
i do bigger keys, but our overall is like 5k higher across the board than the SS you link
so packs live similar amounts of time id guess
wary ice
i ahve a couple of slots namely on back and wrists where i can swap a haste/crit+socket for ilvl+crit/mastery
solid jasper
hey has anyone done mythic zul since sub nerf?
primal gazelle
do u know how many times i would try to SS SS SS a pack but then a DH memebeams and it dies within 10 secs?
and then my dps is like 20k dps lower than his
marble hemlock
even on shorter fights, going 3FOK opener with MA just makes you starve energy after, so while you have more dps after 3 fok, you then have less dps after 6-7sec cause you just cant keep up anymore
ruby idol
i dont really know the exact numbers there
lone junco
@marble hemlock ❤ btw.
afk another week.
marble hemlock
theres usually piggies, stewards, peasents etc. to garrote in wcm
same with birdies
just double G the big one and exsang
for value
marble hemlock
LUL
candid mica
lmao
wary ice
👈 actually its over there
ruby idol
😃
wary ice
they're everywhere
primal gazelle
i guess i just like the feeling of having burst aoe for big artificial numbers
candid mica
ruby idol
i mean dayv its your 15 bucks, spend it how you want. if youre enjoying MA in the keys youre doing then keep playing it
scarlet quiver
so we dont use archive for m+ ever over 2EB/1SS?
ruby idol
i'm just offering perspective
strange python
@scarlet quiver Dumb question
marble hemlock
archive is a decent all-round option
similar to SS, although SS is obviously better
ruby idol
i play 2xss 1 archive this week mr cribs
marble hemlock
so archive works for everything, usually theres 1 or multiple choices that are just better in more specific situations
getting high ilvl archive is easy tho
getting high ilvl ss, scent, eb is RNG
strange python
getting high level ss chest isnt hard
marble hemlock
chest, no
primal gazelle
looking forward to next season
muted jacinth
triple SS triple Scent next raid. sounds broken
marble hemlock
shoulders/helmet? rng
primal gazelle
without infested we can yolo pull
marble hemlock
same for EB, getting helmet is easy
strange python
370 shoulders drop from emissary
primal gazelle
^ which is rng
marble hemlock
i think we will want 1 ttk in there somewhere
wary ice
I lied Dad i have more q's but im done after this: in feelscity: is 15 ilvls worth dropping for 2nd SS, and my 3rd azerite option is between SoB and DD. I imagine SoB will overall be better
marble hemlock
getting fetid chest is fairly reliable
i got 6 gonk helmets before i got my shoulders
marble hemlock
also keep in mind, that archive value doesnt increase at all when you go from 385 to 390
since its still only 280agi
acoustic quartz
With elaborate planning, do you want to wait until the 4s falls over before using ur next finisher? or use it before it falls off the to get 10% more damage?
marble hemlock
if its rupture, doesnt matter
primal gazelle
excuse me while i meme with 3x eb 3x sob
marble hemlock
if its envenom, or ct on aoe, you try to get the 10% damage bonus, so you clip during last 0.2sec of the old EP buff
dunno
i dont think 3SS is worth once we get 6 traits
i was looking at 1ttk 1ss and the rest any combination of EB/SoB
primal gazelle
just have one of everything collect them all
marble hemlock
ss/ttk have big 1point value
ruby idol
seli stop
marble hemlock
ss for the CP, ttk for the long envenoms
marble hemlock
😃
primal gazelle
lol i never noticed either
ruby idol
primal gazelle
ops
wary ice
I never thought about it before
lone junco
RIP 3 E
primal gazelle
?
spice ice
Mfw I didnt get loot with roll or bonus roll and didnt even realise the bug was a thing :^)
wary ice
imagine banning your player base for something you didnt catch in QA
crisp leaf
Imagine haveing QA
primal gazelle
i was merely carrying my friend on a world boss
cobalt gyro
imagine having a PTR and bugs like this slip through
gray crest
imagine listening to your playerbase
primal gazelle
theyre prob gonna ban for the island exp ap exploit shortly after i assume
wary ice
the only reason I'm not getting omegabanned is because i cannot afford bonus rolls any any of my characters
cobalt gyro
why would they do that, you didn't have to do anything different to get the giant AP reward
wary ice
idk cause blizzard is dumb
primal gazelle
"ops i didnt even notice i was getting massive ap, i was just mount farming"
cobalt gyro
you had to actively go and do the world boss multiple times, which you wouldn't do normally
marble elm
lone junco
@cobalt gyro yeah. there are probably a handfull of people that killed him over 50+ times
will be funny if they release any data
thats my kind of farming. just stand there and stab a boss for 7hrs
primal gazelle
Make a keyboard macro that just /target Ivus /cast throw knife
Keep it on a loop and afk in a raid
lone junco
keyboard repeater and go to work?
spice ice
After the 10th kill wouldn't you realise that thered be a response?
lone junco
I did "Pick lock" in oblivion. came back from work as a master magiciain
spice ice
:I
cloud spoke
whats the go-to azerite traits for m+?
flint swift
I like SS but EB seems to be gaining a lot of traction.
lone junco
meh
when we pull small i wish i had SS.
when we pull giga, I wish i had eb
when we pull boss i wish i had ss.
cloud spoke
best i can come up with ilvl wise is 2x ss and 1x eb, guess ill go with that
flint swift
Yeah ss/sub/iron wire is just such tasty synergy
I go blind when I see stuff like that.
And the DPS is good as well so I’m not complaining
formal falcon
yo boys just leveled my rogue for the intent of M+ instead of DH, any tips on talent builds for specific dungeons, traits etc
modest badge
dh is king at m+ tho
formal falcon
Y i'm aware but I like to keep a rogue up there as well
My group mostly missing a rogue and have multitudes of dh's around so
flint swift
You’re set on assassination as a spec?
formal falcon
Currently yeah, will probably open up later on as i get more gear for more specs
flint swift
For sure
I would start with shrouded suffocation/subterfuge/exsang build personally. Nice balance between utility, aoe, and boss damage
Have you checked out ravenholdt yet?
There’s some good resources over there
formal falcon
Yy i'm aware of the basics, was just wondering if there are scenarios where lets say you dont play poison bomb you take crimson instead, or if toxic blade is any good at all if you have at least 1 SS
flint swift
Ah ok gotcha. Yeah not sure I can be of much help there. I’ll let someone else chime in
modest badge
i only pick up crimson for motherload and shrine on nontyranical weeks
and freehold i guess
formal falcon
mhm makes sense
cobalt gyro
tbh i run CT + exsang for just about every dungeon
formal falcon
in regards to weapons do stats on it matter or should i just aim for highest ilvl
modest badge
im lazy tho and just stick with pb most of the time
cobalt gyro
tyrannical i run PB on specific dungeons, notably atal, underrot, temple
fading vigil
midnight vortex
Just tried out double nothing personal and I burst like a crazy monkey
How are there no parses with this trait?
sturdy python
Might burst hard but there's over a minute of it doing nothing
cloud spoke
in like a typical m+ 5-pack, how many garrotes and ruptures do you maintain? also, how many mobs to start using crimson tempest?
lone junco
in a 5pack. i might g g g ct fok fok rupture exang. fok fok r fokfok r fokfok ct fok fok r.
@cloud spoke ^
only the first 3 garrotes. after that CT uptime on 2+. tab out ruptures feeds E. after that, you can refresh CT early.
in the biggest packs like 8-10, once the ruptures are out, and you are capping E, you can almost spam 4+cp ct
dense delta
guys, do we have like a nice list with shroud skips for all the dungeons?
brave rampart
They're rapidly getting rid of most of em.
solid jasper
marsh fjord
Hi guys i'm fairly new to ASSA, The spell Exsanguinate. Does it increase our energy regain as well ?. and what would you guys recommend suing TB or EX?
solid jasper
yes it does
i dont use it for single target build but its amazing for aoe m plus build
lone junco
bleed tick on poison feeds energy. so more bleed targets or faster ticks, feed you juice
marsh fjord
and if you press it with your Bleeds, does the cooldown of your bleeds faster run out? or just ticks faster?
solid jasper
not sure about that
solid jasper
np
rancid aspen
Say Garrote does 13,000 damage over 18 seconds, it will now do that same 13,000 damage over 9 seconds
solid jasper
i dont use it because its easier to create a dps loss with exanguinate rather then toxic blade
and the damage diff for single target is not much at all
but for aoe
this is an awesome exanguinate aoe build
marsh fjord
Will check it out.
rancid aspen
Why the hell is this axe on the sin loot table for honorbound shit... So annoying
lone junco
@marsh fjord exang doubles the tick rate. so it runs out in half time
goes from 18s to 9s
marsh fjord
Thanks
lone junco
it also snapshots the haste . so you need to use GCB before, or use it after lust (in the opener)
but that is specifics.
sour wraith
galecallers
gritty dawn
Galecaller's Boon
marsh fjord
Ahh
and does exsang apply to the target only who you are fighting or everyone near you with bleeds?
rancid aspen
Just the target you use it on
topaz laurel
Hi, quick question on leveling from lvl 1, the pins say to use Talents: 2210031 or 2230031, but is assasination the fastest spec to level with? or would combat be better
marsh fjord
as leveling i should go outlaw @topaz laurel but thats my opinion, but if you dont care about speed assa is just as fine
topaz laurel
thanks
marsh fjord
So when you use exhang and you refresh your bleeds in the window of exhang on the target do they still bleed faster when you refresh them ?
civic palm
No
wanton pond
is there a way to see the average io score of the season
or other stats like that ??
visual quartz
3x SS with exang great for high SoB?
primal gazelle
3 ss is great for almost all dungeons
polar cape
if you get restealth
primal gazelle
yell at your tank if u dont get restealths
stark folio
Is there no reason to run Sub for M Zul now?
wheat niche
Sub is still best for M zul
There are 3 non sub parses in the top 100 for M Zul, 2 are outlaw and the other is Assa however it was on Dec 11 so most likely he was running triple EB before nerf
stark folio
Ah ty @wheat niche
spark ermine
How sub top M Zul in dps, rotation? I want to try it out
civic palm
Go look up SUB parses for the past week > _>
round osprey
@spark ermine There is a Sub Zul guide on the Ravenholdt website
spark ermine
Where to check the sub parses or any other classes
Ty giddy
So shuriken combo is removed?
static hedge
What's better for mid-high m+ keys (15-17)? Poison bomb or Crimson Tempest?
primal gazelle
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/vWEydKYY118fvRhtQU3yWV
3x EB with MA 6 target 1 min sim = 65k aoe dps
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/uNCntgA9ELd5sHcpoEsEyQ
3x EB 1 target with MA 3 min (no RA) = 15.6k dps single target
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/sRZtaweXHMtfi1oxqUuqHu
2x EB 1 SS with Subt 6 target 1 min sim = 60k aoe dps
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/3dZM3h2JPJtwgBrA1xP6vN
2x EB 1 SS with Subt 1 Target 3 min (Avg M15 tyrannical boss) = 16k dps
All gear is the same, only thing that was swapped was azerite pieces, high crit build for both setups
AOE DPS = 3x EB (MA) > 2 EB 1 SS (Subt) by 5k dps or 8.3%
ST DPS = 2 EB 1 SS (Sub) > 3x EB by 400 dps or 2.56%
Conclusion = MA is not a trap
What are your thoughts @ruby idol
storm canopy
whats the refresh timer for CT?
ruby idol
my thoughts are youre trying to use sims to prove a point in M+
and thats a waste of your time
if i could afford the reforges id play test some but i cant
acoustic quartz
could some1 possibly help me with logs? for some reason my garrote is not my highest ability
and I think im doing something wrong
im main swapping so gear isnt the best but I think i should have more garrote damage
sour wraith
your uptime is very low
that's why garrote isn't doing as much damage as you'd expect it to
marble hemlock
@primal gazelle the problem with aoe sims is that they are far from optimal in terms of how they use their GCDs
the MA one opens with garrote, fok, ct, whereas you suggested to open with triple fok
it then goes on with this
even though you never TB on trash unless its a priority target, and even then its not worth to drop it this early into the fight
it barely sustains energy in the early stages, thanks to the vendetta energy, even though we generally also dont use vendetta this early into the pull either
acoustic quartz
seems to be the same as others
marble hemlock
the non-MA one has similar issues, although the APL has gotten a lot better. it still pops vendetta immediately after the opener, it double-ruptures the maintarget for an exsanguinate, none of which you are doing in a real m+ fight
acoustic quartz
@sour wraith the other rogue had less uptime, i think it counts taloc being phased
sour wraith
yea i just saw that too
acoustic quartz
im thinking im not utilizing vanish welll enough
u only double stackl garrote on vanish right?
marble hemlock
and theres still plenty of non-subterfuge garrotes in there on aoe just to sustain energy, so its really just what undaddy said before. trying to prove a point in terms of m+ viability just by comparing sims is just not worth it
sour wraith
you only double stack if the first cast doesn't pandemic
so if you have garrote up already and vanish to refresh you only need to cast it once
acoustic quartz
YA but it will stack shrouded suffocation?
sour wraith
with the refresh from non stealth to stealth it will do shrouded suffocation
but the buff will not stay if you refresh a shrouded garrote with a non-stealth one
acoustic quartz
i feel like my garrote danage should be WAY more
hmmm wait so u can extrend shrouded buff? or am i misunderstanding
sour wraith
no you can't
sour wraith
are you refreshing empowered garrotes with non-empowered ones in the pandemic range? @acoustic quartz
sour wraith
yea that would affect it too
sour wraith
you want to let an empowered garrote always run the full duration
acoustic quartz
oooo ok
sour wraith
so reapply immediately after it falls off
acoustic quartz
ok
the opener is garrote, rapture, garrote, mutilate, rupture, vandetta
right?
civic palm
SIN GUIDE HERE--> http://www.ravenholdt.net/assassination-guide/ FAQ IN PINS-->
acoustic quartz
ya
sorry was justy double checking
so i know u 4 combo envenom and its not worth over capping, but is it the same for rupture?
civic palm
Yep.
acoustic quartz
Ok thats a big issue i need to fix then
civic palm
Rupture DMG does not scale with more CP, you get the same DMG per second regardless of CP.
This was changed in like... Nighthold I think.
cobalt gyro
Only changes the duration of the DoT effect
acoustic quartz
ok wow
cobalt gyro
So in some cases, if you have to, a 2 combo point rupture can be worth it just so it doesn't fall off
civic palm
You will wanna use the same logic between ENV and Rupture however as small Ruptures will lead to you refreshing them more.
acoustic quartz
yup
makes perfect sense
thanks
do people pool energy for toxic blade or just use on cd?
ruby idol
Both
civic palm
Use on CD and plan your resources to make sure you can get ~2 Envenoms off during the duration.
acoustic quartz
thanks for all the help btw
civic palm
👌
primal gazelle
@marble hemlock those APL issues would boost the aoe dmg for both sims, i still expect the difference to be in the 8-11% range, you wont see a drastic difference than that, however the ST difference is pretty firm in the 2-3% range,
giving up 2-3% ST for 8-11% aoe dmg, pick your poison
marble hemlock
you have no data to back up those numbers tho, youre literally engaging in feelycraft
primal gazelle
obv there is no perfect sim, thats the best we can get
what you mean lol, the data is in the sims difference right there
marble hemlock
you dont know how big the difference to the "optimal" playstyle is
primal gazelle
65k aoe vs 60k aoe
16k dps vs 15.6k
marble hemlock
you assume it to be in the 8-11% range
primal gazelle
the error will be accounted to a standard deviation of another 3-4% up or down
and thats being generous
primal gazelle
well if you remove my entire sims, then youre feelycrafting regardless
marble hemlock
youre obviously free to extrapolate from those results in whatever way you want
primal gazelle
the AOE difference is extremely noticable between 3 eb vs 2 ss 1 eb with it heavy favoring EB, the ST difference is about 2-3% loss of dmg
marble hemlock
youre the one claiming specific results, so the onus is on you to provide data to support them. after two people pointing out how those sims are based on an unoptimized apl, i would assume you wouldnt trust those results as much as you currently do
primal gazelle
no sim is 100%, but it can be used as a benchmark
doesnt mean ill walk into a dungeon and expect to do 60k dps
marble hemlock
how can you use a sim as a benchmark when you dont know how accurate or inaccurate it is?
final hull
So boys , what is the best combination of azerite traots and talents for this week
marble hemlock
all we know is that the APL used in the aoe sim is very suboptimal and heavily focuses on priority target damage
primal gazelle
what is your suggestion instead of using sims?
because without it, youre feelingcraft
marble hemlock
using those sims, understanding what exactly it is theyre doing and what modeling/apl they use, and then comparing those results to the ones you get in a live environment
which is where people like undaddy or me are coming from when we say "MA is a trap"
civic palm
The SIMS also uses locked targeting parameters based on averages, if you take that into account you just have to remember that there's a larger margin for error than normally.
Your MA is a trap!!
Mine is fine > _>"
marble hemlock
your initial claim about MA being good was because you can open with fok fok fok, yet you didnt even take a closer look to see that the aoe MA sim doesnt open that way
civic palm
gets the fucking records out
marble hemlock
well, your argument was that the burst opener would carry the dps into a short trashfight
primal gazelle
however, if the apl was fixed for both, i still expect MA to heavily beat subt
1 min is actually prettty long for a trash fight
marble hemlock
and then use the sim to support that statement, despite it not even using the opener
primal gazelle
doing what wrong
marble hemlock
and the only supporting argument you have is a sim that we can all agree on is "somewhat accurate" at best
playing subterfuge instead of MA
primal gazelle
top rogues can honestly run whatever they want and theyll still do good because theyre skilled
marble hemlock
thats your point, isnt it? that you think MA will beat out subt
primal gazelle
under specific conditions yes
"top rogues" run 20+ keys where ST matters more on bosses than the average pleb who does 10-15s
so theyre running ss sub etc
civic palm
No name calling
marble hemlock
it matters even less, since you spend a lot more time on trash and thus optimizing AoE dps is even more important
getting 1 or 2k more singletarget dps doesnt save nearly as much time as pushing your aoe dps by 5-10k
and yet we are all playing subterfuge, because MA just doesnt work
cobalt gyro
A strength of subt isn't just running SS traits anyway, it's the synergy of subt + ss + iron wire, and it's not like IW isn't rediculously strong, especially when things hit hard
marble hemlock
subterfuges strength, in combination with vigor, lies in being able to use high DPE abilities from the get-go without needing vendetta or exsanguine, or filler abilities, to generate energy
which is what MA needs to do
you simply cant sustain energy during the first ~20seconds of a trash pull with MA unless you have exsanguinate or vendetta to provide extra energy
and those abilities arent up every trashpull
i would assume thats a concern of yours @primal gazelle but you didnt even disable bloodlust in your aoe sims
so it probably isnt
primal gazelle
lust would favor subt ss build over ma
if i turned it off, ma would sim even higher than sub ss
primal gazelle
okay let me sim rq
marble hemlock
whats the point? the MA sim has multiple issues, bloodlust generating extra energy being one of them
it also uses vendetta/exsang on the maintarget, which is not a realistic scenario either. youd have to disable all of those to see the difference in terms of energy-sustain
once you disable all those extra ways of energy generation, you have a more accurate depiction of how MA will fare in a regular aoe pull, and it will starve energy and/or have lower DPS
primal gazelle
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/spwANic9JieGV9F4w2ben1
MA
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/uYqmN21DkSsYbk8WRhBYYc
SS
marble hemlock
the aoe sim deals 17k dps to the maintarget, and only 7-9k dps to the others respectively. that alone should give away that the APL isnt suited to accurately simulate a proper AoE fight
primal gazelle
i never have energy problems in a trash pull with 3 eb
key is to rupture lowest hp add first so they die and give instant energy regen back for more spam
that isnt optimized in the apl either
marble hemlock
how does that work in a 60second trashfight, which is what youre basing your argument on right now?
primal gazelle
well if you wanna compare to "real live environment"
you claim ill be energy starved if i dont use vendetta
my sim is also without exsang btw
primal gazelle
i didnt use exsang for the MA sim
youre telling me that the 60 energy that vendetta gives
is gonna make up for the 7% difference of aoe dps
LOL
60 energy gives me 2 foks
which is like
primal gazelle
youre right, i didnt, here it is 3 EB MA
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/9FpTE1hJWbX9UB7MYNit6a
53k dps vs 48k, difference of 10%
thanks
which actually makes your argument even worse
without lust, MA > Sub by 10% on aoe dps
marble hemlock
and you dont think
that energy graph, with vendetta and fillers like TB that most certainly arent aoe-efficient, doesnt look like you would starve energy if those werent included?
13k dps to the main target, 6-7k dps to targets 2-6
big AoE
civic palm
That sounds bad Seli.
marble hemlock
doesnt seem like it matters how bad it sounds, the sim is higher so it must be better right? /s
civic palm
Plus in a few weeks we get to fend off the people that think SSS|EBEBEB is the way to go.
"we"
marble hemlock
i dont mind discussions like these when the data/gameplay supports the statements. in the case of MA+TB vs subt+exsang, it simply doesnt
civic palm
gets the 1 Chinese guy doing it the right way
marble hemlock
and apparently citing significant issues in the APL, live-realm experience of multiple players and pointing out mistakes in the line of thinking still isnt enough to change peoples minds who simply look at the numbers the sim spits out
fast nacelle
seli go sleep you never sleep enough
marble hemlock
went to bed after raid, slept like 5hrs, im good
civic palm
woop
primal gazelle
lets agree to disagree because neither of us are willing to budge
civic palm
o _o 💦
tawny nova
Lol
marble hemlock
youre free to do whatever you want. youre still wrong.
primal gazelle
ill say the same to you
cobalt gyro
on a haste build
marble hemlock
again
im not the one making a claim
if you put out a theory
and you cant back it up with accurate data
you should have to accept that your theory might not be accurate
im just pointing out issues in the APL, which you even agreed to. we draw different conclusions based on these issues, but by claiming that these issues dont affect the accuracy of your theory, youre engaging in feelycrafting without providing further data to cement your position
primal gazelle
i would consider those "issues" to be minor and would not be enough to negate the 10% difference in dps
ex, your vendetta example
marble hemlock
which is, again, feelycraft
you just make up numbers
you have no data to support those numbers
civic palm
Considering the short duration of the SIM it matters.
primal gazelle
or the TB cast, there is only 2 tb cast within 60 secs, not enough to move by 10%
marble hemlock
sure, 30second into the sim the APL still doesnt manage to get above 50 energy. so using vendetta, which generates 60 energy, and TB which only costs 25 energy compared to other builders that cost 35 minimum, youve already saved 70 energy on abilities that dont improve AoE DPS comapred to their counterparts
so its just a fact that without those energy-saving or energy-generating measures, you would starve energy. and starving energy is BAD
primal gazelle
youre telling me, 60 energy + 70 + 70 is enough to make up a 10% dps difference?
marble hemlock
im telling you that the sim is inaccurate and you cannot trust the results blindly
primal gazelle
i trust my gameplay, im pumping way harder in keys with 3eb ma than subt, i do suffer in st however
light kestrel
Or, you can play what you like. I play SS/Exsang because I like the playstyle. I could get more damage out of going MA/TB but I hate MA so..
marble hemlock
which would be the definition of feelycraft
thats certainly one way to do it worgan
civic palm
You might be able to get more damage out of MA/TB.
Even if you factor in perfect play.
Can still be a loss.
marble hemlock
everyone can play whatever talents they want. i only think its necessary to discuss the merits of ones gamepaly/theory if that someone claims their gameplay to be the superior one dps-wise
fast nacelle
the issue with 3x eb is that you just go for useless dmg.
its the reason you didnt play outlaw in high keys - its not cause of bad overall dmg but lacking ST (rng)
running 3x eb is like playing a worse outlaw
light kestrel
Also, got a 390 NP chest, big nerf to my damage if I run it over my 375 SS, Guess I'll hang onto it just incase
fast nacelle
(since you lack st completly)
light kestrel
Seems like 3xeb would be great for fort weeks, the other two dps could just be super ST machines
fast nacelle
nah doesnt rly matter if its fort or not
light kestrel
Seems like a large loss on tyrannical week, but this is a lot of "seems" from me, I'd have to test it.
marble hemlock
and the claim that MA+TB is superior aoe DPS
light kestrel
Ah, doubt that's the case
marble hemlock
but the sim says its higher, so it must be true /s
light kestrel
Those pesky sims and that darn dog!
marble hemlock
anyway, ive pointed out all the flaws, youre free to believe whatever you want @primal gazelle
light kestrel
Or as fun
marble hemlock
but please dont make claims like that while being unable to defend them when people point out the inaccuracies in that theory
light kestrel
I like both playstyles I just prefer exsang, what I hate about the other one is MA, I can't stand it.
marble hemlock
and dont resort to feelycrafting when someone points out issues in your theory, that just doesnt go over well with people
light kestrel
Wish it lasted longer, or they took vendetta off the gcd so it feels less "bad"
umbral hemlock
So what is the optimal traits in mythic + 2 ss 1 eb?
civic palm
Probably gonna ditch the 390 for a 370 with +1 ring.
light kestrel
They're not going back and adding a new ring to gear acquired before the 22nd, right?
marble hemlock
subterfuge+vigor will remain the top talents as long as we need those talents to ensure a smooth opener in aoe
primal gazelle
@marble hemlock invite me to one of your m+ runs and we'll duke it out
your ss vs my eb
simple solution
quick fog
Lol
fast nacelle
i need to do the invasions before they fall off but there is no falue in just padding aoe MA TB - while there is value in tripple silence also dmg wise its just better on 2-3 taargets if you dont just look at 3 globals or 5s fight duration
also sims dont know how m+ works - subterfuge provides diversity
primal gazelle
cobra#1709 add me
fast nacelle
idk how to claim that MA should be better in aoe
marble hemlock
ill say it one last time, i have nothing to prove
light kestrel
I wish they'd own up to their statement in Legion and just make vigor baseline, giving us a new talent there.
marble hemlock
pretty easy tyra, make the claim, link 2 sims that show a difference in favor of MA, swipe away all the criticism you receive for those sims by engaging in feelycrafting, and then try to confirm your theory by saying "1v1 dust2 mr15"
marble hemlock
because i know im right 😃
primal gazelle
"i have nothing to prove"
spents an hour arguing against a stranger on the internet
light kestrel
It's getting spicy in here, I'm going to excuse myself to something that's not this. Best of luck boys.
primal gazelle
put some gold on the line too ayyy this could get fun
quick fog
Big zzzz
marble hemlock
well, i wouldnt have to waste a time arguing a stupid theory if you didnt come in here with unsubstantiated claims and instead just resorted to being wrong in your own little world
primal gazelle
and im inviting you to prove me wrong in a "real live environment"
marble hemlock
ive already proven your theory wrong countless times at this point
primal gazelle
you didnt prove shit until you beat me in dps
marble hemlock
if everyone understands 2+2 to be 4, and you claim it to be 5, im gonna try to show you why its 4. that didnt work. then im gonna kindly ask you to at least not claim its 5 in public unless you have proof. that didnt seem to stick either.
primal gazelle
i literally dont understand why you dont want to run a dungeon with me lol
primal gazelle
youre clearly a good player at high io, and not free to do a chill dungeon?
pride
do it for pride
next grotto
He doesn't want to deplete maybe lul
primal gazelle
at the 320 ap at the end
marble hemlock
well, gl with that
primal gazelle
thats kinda cheating tho cos ill pad so hard on the blobs and eels
runic berry
someone able to send me a PM, i wanna talk about Azu traits for Mythic Uldir
primal gazelle
lol youre clearly afraid because deep down you know, iill outaoe you with EB MA vs SS subt
marble hemlock
just ask in here balthatas
primal gazelle
hope everybody had their share of pop corn reading this for the past hour
night yall
runic berry
i was just trying to work out which is the best to run, i started rogue late so dont have every trait available for every slot
so currently running 2 SS and 1 Arch
what should i be aiming for.
marble hemlock
thats a solid setup for basically every one of the later bosses in uldir
traits dont make as big of a difference as talent choice, since almost every encounter works the same way
tawny nova
Well that convo was actually interesting until about the last 10 minutes. Thanks for taking the time to actually explain things when people come along counter claiming the solid guide info @marble hemlock
runic berry
well the other sin rog is running blight and 2xArch so i thought i would ask.
so since i run double SS i should use Exang?
marble hemlock
ye
except for vectis
run TB for that one, since TB is on a 25sec CD and the add on vectis spawns every 25seconds
runic berry
o ok
civic palm
Can just SUB/EX tunnel Vectis if the adds are dying fast enough.
marble hemlock
and on fetid it depends which add youre on. small adds = TB, big add = exsang
those suggestions are for progress though, so if youve joined a guild thats already farming those bosses, it wont matter as much
runic berry
we are doing vectis atm, and is it best to save Ven till after the first add spawns ?
add dies to quickly for me to use it on it, so i dont wanna waste it before hand on the boss.
umbral hemlock
So what is the optimal traits in mythic + 2 ss 1 eb? Why is DD bad?
marble hemlock
the first add on pull and after every intermission usually dies fairly quickly
phases repeat on a 2min timer, so people have their 2mins up for the first add every time
civic palm
DD is typically bad because you do not Mutilate very much.
marble hemlock
so you dont really need to help on that one too much. just pop vendetta+TB opener on the boss, and then hold TB for add 2/3/4
runic berry
ok thanks for your help
umbral hemlock
I see your point. What 3rd trait would be best after 2 x ss?
marble hemlock
you can vanish, garrote boss, garrote add on add 3 or 4
marble hemlock
depending on how quickly the add dies, you only want to pool some energy before the spawn, hold CP, and then immediately rupture, muti, tb the add
civic palm
Yeah it's typically not worth Garroting the add unless it is Empowered as Garrote and Rupture deal near the same damage per tick (without empowerments) and you won't be hurting for Energy so long the boss and add are DoT'd.
make sure to keep DP on boss while you the add
marble hemlock
other than that, use crimson vial in the intermission to help get rid of the healing absorb, and try to take a double or triple soak with cloak. the damage of the soak isnt the problem, but since the overlap of soaks doesnt leave you much room to dodge the geysers from teh boss, which give you more corruption stacks, you want to cloak while doing the soak since you do not get stacks even if you get hit
runic berry
dp?
marble hemlock
deadly poison
civic palm
deadly poison*
runic berry
sweet
tawdry ice
Did u guys run sub rogue on that 21 ad @marble hemlock?
tawdry ice
Wow nice
marble hemlock
my score is actually embarrassing, hope we finally get some good runs going this week :<
tawdry ice
How much dps were you doing on yazma to get the 21? How long was the fight?
fast nacelle
seli is washed up
marble hemlock
yeah 😦
tawdry ice
Oh man im having trouble doing a 19 ad lol
marble hemlock
i mean seb isnt even trying
but we tried to push but failed, since we just recently switched from bdk+mw to brew+rdruid
so tank has to relearn/practice pulls
tawdry ice
Do you guys play exsang for raid?
civic palm
Depends on fight.
marble hemlock
checking vods rn
in that 21
fight took 5m20s
everyone sitting at ~11k
was monkaS with spiders tho
marble hemlock
sub is good in atal because you save a lot of time on the bird-packs by prio-dpsing the big one
with our setup we had to singeltarget those which costs quite a bit of time
you can also use it to blast rezan by pulling extra raptors, and on yazma you can keep the adds alive for a bit and drop a ring of peace between the boss and the adds so the subrogue gets some value there as well
prio-damage on the juggernauts is also nice in the big pulls, since they usually make caster-life a living hell
fast nacelle
i always focus caster adds.
if they die fast i dont need to kick anymore.
i'm smart
caster life doesn't matter
marble hemlock
when its a boomy with pre-stacked triple innervate and its blasting 150k dps, it does 😛
marble hemlock
glad they nerfed that shit tho
winter moss
another nerf or are you talking about the 75% nerf
sacred ore
guys, should the better dagger be on my main hand?
marble hemlock
might lead to them valueing kicking you higher than not kicking
sacred ore
or it doesnt matter?
marble hemlock
higher ilvl into the MH
sacred ore
ty
fast nacelle
fml i read the hotfixes
i see temple
im like: yes... cyclone strike changed
but then its just a dumb spell change from trash
temple is a big yikes
marble hemlock
the timers are different now
fast nacelle
when you started the +19 i was like: weow weow lets see how a good group manages it
then i saw you guys playing like monkeys
and started singing: i'm only human after all
marble hemlock
and the boss follows the target it has for cyclone strike visually
while still casting it on the original location
so you cant move insta
cobalt gyro
wat
cobalt gyro
pre- visual update for temple that boss was a nightmare too
marble hemlock
killed 3 people
fast nacelle
yes you need to run away from the boss
others dodge
you sidestep after cyclone strike is casted
cobalt gyro
before the arrows
fast nacelle
that was already broken before 8.1 often
marble hemlock
we wiped 3times on a 17 yday
before we killed it
still only went 1min overtime
the dungeon is still a joke if you can make it past 1st/3rd boss
but 1st boss is just not enjoyable at all right now
fast nacelle
temple tyrannical must be hardest dungeon now
for tyrannical weeks
boss 2 + 3 were already god awful
marble hemlock
hard to say
fast nacelle
boss 1 was messy and now its messy and hard
marble hemlock
people avoided temple/underrot like the plague in tyrannical
so there wasnt that many actual runs
but seeing how we did 19 months ago, i wouldnt be surprised if 20 or even 21 is doable, especially with the change to last boss which saves you like 2mins on the timer
cobalt gyro
underrot was some real shit on tyrannical
dunno why they had to wait so long to change it
fast nacelle
hard to say - underot is overall harder dungeon
since temple its just the bosses
imo
cobalt gyro
I mean underrot was quite literally impossible on a high enough key tho
marble hemlock
kingsrest/waycrest are probably harder tyrannical dungeons nowadays
than temple/underrot
fast nacelle
yeah
marble hemlock
so sisters will destroy you now
unless you bug them out on the stairs, but that costs you 1-2min
fast nacelle
only one temple in time at 21
and - call me crazy
i think first boss is a blocker
marble hemlock
that was prior to the 4th boss changes, which saves like 2mins
fast nacelle
on 20-21
marble hemlock
you jsut need to get past first boss
marble hemlock
which you have to do now
fast nacelle
2, + 3. are straigth tactics
marble hemlock
since you cant just delete keys anymore
fast nacelle
just "numbers"
marble hemlock
so expect to see multiple 21s this week
marble hemlock
its not hard mechanically, just visually its hard to see whats going on
fast nacelle
and fight on 20/21 goes so much longer
to have more overlaps
and cyclone strikes in general 😄
marble hemlock
and the debuff+aoe overlap in p1 is a joke
marble hemlock
giving out a debuff that hits you for 80-90% of your hp and then follow it up with another grp-wide aoe that does the same damage is just.... idk
thats legion design, quite frankly
fast nacelle
i feel like if they really change 2-3 things per dungeon
the dungeons will be pmuch enjoyable
marble hemlock
id be happy if they fixed the myriad of bugs
evading mobs
mobs teleporting tank/players
mobs falling through the floor etc.
bosses not spawning
cobalt gyro
bosses despawning mid pull for no reason
marble hemlock
theres a reason, its just a dumb one
happens on every boss with adds, when these adds for some reason spawn in a location where they cannot attack their target, thus they evade
and despawn the boss 5-10sec after
even if theres no reason for the add to evade in the first place
cobalt gyro
amazing
echo night
Would i use MA instead of subt with 2x EB 1x SS or is the ss a dealbreaker for subtrefuge?
patent topaz
anyone planning on reclearing ghuun before new years? we didnt get the kill because our dps is super bad, think I can provide a lockout as well
ruby idol
2nd boss room with 1 poison dispel in group and fire mage nerfs is the actual temple 21 check to follow up on previous chat
Cause if its done again its on a fort week
prisma wind
Hey guys I could really use someone to talk to
I really miss the old OP RNG poison bomb
What's your best Legion PB story
Mine is getting triple PBs with Mantle on the wyrms in Kara, I spiked so hard man
Shadowmeld worked with it too
prisma wind
My highest % on a boss was like 22
thank you for sharing, Richard. That shit made me nut
RIP indeed
solid nova
It was a love hate relationship 
prisma wind
Oh yeah
Ever envenom a dying mob
and it pops and you're like, I hope I haven't blown it
solid nova
But then you'd get the fat aoe pulls and it would proc 3 times in a row 
solid nova
It was fun when the rng was in your favour
prisma wind
I also love RtB so I'm weird like that
solid nova
But in general not a design for a class to be based around 😄
prisma wind
well idk, I think there's a place for it
Although granted, I had quit prog raiding in Legion
solid nova
Idk dude, when its 20+ % like that its pretty hard to justify 😄
prisma wind
Yeah, I think honestly what I enjoyed was the ability to react to RNG
so I play nelf
and for the PB example, I would wait for it to pop on a trash pack
shadowmeld into stealth, popping mantle, and taking advantage of the 100% crit
I really enjoyed that kind of thing, taking advantage of an RNG situation in your favor
but yeah that doesn't address the lows
strange python
you guys think bloodelf are must have in m+ or its only nice to have? i think about race change from undeath to bloodelf but i dont know.. is it worth ?
nimble tartan
bro fuck this boon of bwomsandi buff
always keepin me in COMBAT
when everything is dead smh..
cunning pebble
Would love to play M+ as nelf.. More buffed SS 
Make a horde class with shadowmeld plox
cold patio
Was there any chances to the taloc trinket? Its now simming ~150dps (ilvl390) better than darkmoon for me...
sacred ore
guys, when should I re-apply garrote?
royal lantern
when it is not on your enemy
nah, srsly, the timers are in the pins, and dont overwrite the buffed stealth garrote
warm sable
Did u feel lack of energy after weekly reset or i am mad ?!?
obsidian girder
stupid question i think but actually i dont know..
if i refreshed garrote and rupture, after that i did exsanguine. do they finish ticking faster the last seconds because of exsang or did i just reset the exsang buff ?
i forgot to say that after i did exsang i refreshed the bleeds at pandemic
shy escarp
you overwrite the bleeds and remove the exsang effect from them if you refresh them
after you exsang you want to bleeds to finish completely to get max effect and refresh after
runic berry
frenetic corpuscle 385 socket or 370 Dice.
obsidian girder
@shy escarp oh thanks alot 😃 then ill change that
zinc zephyr
purchased my first azerite from the vendor because i dont see any point in hoarding currency til season 2 cuz they gonna cost like 5k/piece
aaaand i got the shoulder i already had...
remote kraken
guys what do you use on Tyra? one SS and than DD/Nothing Personal?
fleet acorn
guys, is there any macro to shadowstep directly in monk's statue ? checked pins but there's no any
cunning pebble
My guess would be:
/target "name of statue"
/use Shadowstep
Not sure if the statue is targetable
fleet acorn
thx, Twin. Seems it's targetable, coz rogue in gif in pins shadowsteps in it
Don't know whether it's fixed or not now
wary anchor
375 archives or scent of blood for m+? no other archives on other peices either
sturdy python
Archive doesn't give array in m+. Scent of blood just needs two ruptures to equal the agi from archive
So in aoe that lasts long enough to get 3 rups scent is def better
remote kraken
do you use AoE traint also on tyra? thought at least Noting Personal would be nice on Tyra
long cosmos
SS all the way
wary anchor
when u only have a 330 shrouded feelsbadman
dark crag
Emissaries?
royal lantern
i feel you
little cedar
sometimes when i test on dummy combo points are bugged and dont stack.. this happens to u too?
little cedar
nono its not parry
ye i hit from back
i do the dmg but combo points dont stack
never
i have this problem since 5 min
tepid fractal
bfa
random furnace
Hello all, question, I have sim'ed these 2 chest, and the Venture Co. is simming higher, yet with all the SS talk around here, wouldn't I benefit more from using the Jerkin?
tepid fractal
jerkin better
there are not so much fights when u can stand in ur azerite leak and anyway its not that good
bleak spoke
but how about this jerkin from the warfront https://i.imgur.com/N90p1aQ.png
tepid fractal
what do u want to hear
acoustic quartz
@little cedar I had that bug in dark shore
bleak spoke
why blizzard does things like this
acoustic quartz
I couldn't use finishers
random furnace
@bleak spoke where do I get that?
tepid fractal
which things
random furnace
Got ya
acoustic quartz
Why should good loot come from raiding! That wouldn't be fair
I want good loot from logging on
acoustic quartz
Lol sarcasm is hard
tepid fractal
its ok to hear nowadays that people want best loot and dont want do things that harder than wqs
acoustic quartz
Wq are quality content and deserve quality rewards
acoustic quartz
Like bis titanforged trinkets
tepid fractal
its ok to get residium from different sources
acoustic quartz
Residium from wq?
bleak spoke
Yeh I just wish they’d done something like a flat residium number at the end of dungeons
acoustic quartz
What am I missing
bleak spoke
Would be worth to go help out guildies in alts or more casual friends
The incursions give azerite often
vernal shadow
Is there a preferred fight to check logs for improvements, if that makes sense? Another rogue in my guild is easily 2-4K DPS higher and we are similar iLvl and I'm about the same below my SIM'd DPS. And I can't for the life of me figure it out.
bleak spoke
Vectis is all technique
tepid fractal
taloc mitrax too
bleak spoke
Mythrax now that you can’t get orbed in melee
vernal shadow
Yeah he's much more familar with the boss fights than me so I know he's much better in staying on the boss/adds but still
bleak spoke
Unless you get a pull with all the imminent ruins then it’s shit
bleak spoke
Hmm, now that my guild might let me play rogue on zek farm, which is the best orb for assa