Method Speed
#assassination
craggy helm
Also @strange python - I think I'm onto something with the 1DD + 2 EB. https://www.herodamage.com/rogue/azerite-levels/hd-t22-assassination - If you look at it DD is neck and neck with SoB (which I would run if I had a 385)
fading harness
I just don’t understand the concept behind it
quiet crescent
You need extremely large pulls consistently
craggy helm
you really dont
strange python
SS is more flexible than EB
fading harness
I mean eb seems busted because FoK can be used on low count trash packs
fading harness
Theyll just crit fans on each other
quiet crescent
On high keys this week you are not pulling 8 packs usually
Eb is poo on a 4 pack
Ss and night elf will smash it.
quiet crescent
Yes. Scent and ss
silver notch
If your pugging keys I'd still value 2x SS
strange python
@craggy helm Also why would you run 2EB + 1DD? Why not 2EB + Archive which has more value than DD?
fading harness
I have a 385 scent but a 370 eb
quiet crescent
This week you never run dd. Ever
quiet crescent
Scent Luna.
craggy helm
I think if I was gonna run archive as 3rd, might as well just run 3x EB
unkempt karma
Mastery this week aint it?
strange python
I just wouldn't run DD in m+ ever just because its a ST trait, and m+ is mostly based around trash packs
Even on tyrannical weeks
rustic ether
the 4 390 pieces i have are only ST traits feelsbadman
strange python
Majority of time on tyrannical is spent on trash packs
fading harness
On tyrannical
rustic ether
wait im lying i have a scent piece at 390 wtf
quiet crescent
Then you guys are pulling trash wrong on high tyran keys
rustic ether
so do i just spam 4-5 cp ruptures 😮
craggy helm
I mean, it's on hero damage as the top picks for Dungeon spec. If youre gonna run MA to synergize with EB - then no point in SS
strange python
Even Selia said that tyrannical is STILL majority trash packs
But I guess they're doing pulls the wrong way!
quiet crescent
Sorry michee but go do a 17 tos tyran with no st traits and tell me how it goes.
craggy helm
whether that would mean DD or archive, or SoB or EB for 3rd trait... different story.
fading harness
Anyone know how many garrotes + ruptures you need when you open on a medium size pack, like lets say 7 trash mobs
craggy helm
what's seli running in M+ for 8.1 so far?
quiet crescent
You spend an equal time on a high 17-18 tyran on trahs and bosses depending on the dungeon
craggy helm
I bet 3xEB is the best this week if you have them all at 385.
fading harness
You could try dd on kr tyrannical
craggy helm
I think motherload is actually an example of 1 where it's difficult to decide, because only 1 boss has extra mobs, and even then.... it's really more ST.
wheras somewhere like TD - 2 bosses have aoe.
similarly with SoB - a lot of aoe, even on tyranical - bosses have more than 1 mob
strange python
Simply can't find a single tyran run with strictly a ST trait
craggy helm
I think if you pull mobs into boss fights like you do with a sub rogue, 3xEB will be best for every dungeon
strange python
Color me stupid but how is echoing blades supposed to "scale better with master assassin" if it always crits.....?
quiet crescent
Sometimes on a 17 underrot pleb groups like mine need the extra single target to get past the first boss
spice sorrel
I don't think they would pull mobs in for a sin rogue
spice surge
@strange python The first part doesnt always crit, only the extra waves
strange python
Well thats why u go 4dps on 1st UR boss
quiet crescent
We still do that
spice surge
And its not "better" its more reasonable
quiet crescent
The druid goes boomkin
strange python
oh
spice surge
I mean, thats an even more niche scenario
strange python
quiet crescent
You're giving advice to people who aren't 2.5k rated
spice surge
If you need DD to get past a fortified first boss on UD 17 with 4 dps, you prob shouldnt be doing a 17
spice surge
That 1% extra dmg isnt relevant on ST when you can do 10% more on aoe
craggy helm
@strange python it's not like it's unused, even in trash packs there's gonna be some that last longer, so you use mutiliate probably a few times in every pull. But.... would SoB or archive be better.... probably
quiet crescent
Eleem. I said tyran is the only time
spice surge
DD is just a garbage dungeon trait
quiet crescent
Pay attention.
spice surge
If you need the boss dps, might aswell get more ss
craggy helm
I mean...
it's nott hough
look at herodamage
from a pure theoretical standpoint, it's clearly not
strange python
yall are xtra polite today
quiet crescent
Eleem you are 1300 m+?
spice surge
Herodamage profile overvalues ST, and DD is still very low
craggy helm
If you're running MA for EB anyways, then youre not gonna run SS.
spice surge
??
spice sorrel
quiet crescent
Are you on EU rag?
craggy helm
it's not very low at all. If youre running master assassin it's only behind archive and scent (and a couple generics)
quiet crescent
You just went listening to what I said. I said ddx1 2xss is good in some very high Tyran dungeons
craggy helm
Now....if we're talking about MA + EB vs. subt + SS...that gets much harder.
I'd bet they are VERY similar in dmg
and would probably run the former on fortified and the latter on tyranical
strange python
@quiet crescent And do you go TB or exsang for those "high" tyran keys?
strange python
Why DD then if SS outsims DD on single target
quiet crescent
I usually run 2xss 1archi
strange python
quiet crescent
It doesn't for me in sims.
strange python
Mind posting those sims?
craggy helm
I'd bet all of these discussed builds are all within like 500-1k dps of each other XD
spice surge
Idk what the entire point is even, are you trying to argue that DD is a better trait than SS for dungeons?
Or that it isnt garbage?
That its ok?
strange python
A sim between 3SS and 2SS+1DD strictly single target with ur m+ talent build
unkempt karma
That its better only on tyranical when keys reach high ( 15 -17) as he mentioned before
blissful saddle
1ss 2 eb poggers
craggy helm
@spice surge for me it comes down to whether or not I'm running MA because of EB. If that's the case I think SS loses it's power, and that's when other options are viable.
quiet crescent
I'm no ot saying its always better I'm saying it's not trash for high tyran like michee was saying.
Kk one sec let me log on
sturdy python
Even if something is better on tyrannical bosses you still need to kill more trash to finish on time
Oo ok
quiet crescent
That's why I would only run one for the very difficult bosses like TOS 3rd or ur 1st
sturdy python
No reason to when you could just run SS
quiet crescent
I run 2ss.
sturdy python
Esp since SS is more burst
quiet crescent
Burst means nothing on a 18tyran
quiet crescent
That's not true bud
sturdy python
Why would you ever
cobalt gyro
I mean i've been running 2x ss 1x archive
sturdy python
Name one dungeon
strange python
Yes Odowla
silver notch
SS is better for overall dps regardless if its tyrannical/fortified what, if you had a piece that would be between DD or SS
strange python
But archive isn't strictly a ST trait
silver notch
Why would you pick DD?
strange python
DD is
spice sorrel
Also running 2xss 1 archive
cobalt gyro
there are high scoring rogues running 345 SS pieces, still, though
silver notch
DD is strong and I run one that's 390 but really just depends on how spooky the tyran boss is
cobalt gyro
an argument could be made for atal tyran but that's about it
quiet crescent
That's my point phoking
sturdy python
And if you had a 390 SS it would help even more
quiet crescent
Nope
silver notch
I have to choose between my 390 ss or dd for chest pieces and I'm only 1500io but I never consider going DD an option
strange python
#BringBackPoisonWireTrait
sturdy python
Esp since you're not gonna run tb
spice surge
Assuming same ilvl ofc
cobalt gyro
like i said. an argument for DD could be made for atal tyran, but that's probably about it
cobalt gyro
as that entire key is on the yazma pull
quiet crescent
Same with underrot
spice surge
But SS is as good as DD on ST
spice surge
Therefore there is no discussion
sturdy python
No not underrot
quiet crescent
First boss is the only pull. That was my point
cobalt gyro
then you'd just leave to swap to SS
craggy helm
I think if you're running subt and DD that's objectively worse than SS. But if you're running MA to synergize with EB... I think the argument for DD becomes stronger.
silver notch
Haha this discussion pertains to high keys because why would else would this generate so much tall?
sturdy python
And the SS burst and cleabe on clone is a huge benefit in ur first boss
silver notch
Talk*, if were talking overall and the community for pugging keys which is like a u average all this really doesnt matter
sturdy python
No one cares about your io
silver notch
7 average*
sturdy python
That was the point
quiet crescent
Tawney you have strong opinions. I'm gonna assume you're 2k
sturdy python
No I'm not, why does that matter
silver notch
But back to topic, you know this kind of min/max discussion really does only pertain to high keys
sturdy python
Does math not pertain to you if not
craggy helm
ofc
silver notch
So of course it's okay to have some validation
cobalt gyro
because you don't really need to think about how much those traits matter to t ime anything lower
quiet crescent
No he's talking like an expert. So he has to have high key xp
cobalt gyro
run 3x dd on +12 if you want
sturdy python
Has nothing to do with being an expert
quiet crescent
X12 is a low key
sturdy python
Do you need Seli to come I. Here and say or again
amber temple
is there a general rule of thumb for when to use Crimson Tempest over Rupture on mythic plus trash?
craggy helm
I mean, I'm only 1330 io, doesn't mean I don't want to do my maximum potential in a +15
amber temple
like a number of targets
spice surge
So what you're saying is that without 2k io score i cant be qualified to say that DD isnt an aoe trait? 🤔
amber temple
Sorry i meant Envenom
sturdy python
Does he need to show you that SS out damages DD massively himself
strange python
@amber temple CT > envenom at 5+ targets
quiet crescent
No one said it's an aoe trait you goofball
strange python
Is there data on io score distribution anywhere?
amber temple
@strange python Thanks :)
spice surge
SS and DD sims the same on ST
sturdy python
SS does similar, if not more damage, than DD in st
cobalt gyro
and i mean, a big part of the strength of SS is in the combination of subt + iron wire
its not even just damage
craggy helm
If youre running subt then of course SS is better.
plain thistle
quiet crescent
@strange python
SS: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/8wfA9fYnTonXMMtRJp7Udf
DD: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/hcrvWgC2qKTeMZ5REASZku
like i said for me DD sims higher
quiet crescent
if im not running any SS why would i use exsang
cobalt gyro
i mean to be fair if you're considering running DD its for a few specific cases, i.e. tyran UR 1st boss
spice surge
But you're not comparing solely DD vs SS
quiet crescent
i would never run 2xdd ever in a dungo
sturdy python
If you seriously consider DD over SS for a m+ idk eat to tell you
cobalt gyro
first boss tyran UR
sturdy python
No, use SS and exsang
cobalt gyro
you basically need the ST damage anyway
craggy helm
This is a ridiculous discussion. If you're running subterfuge, SS is far better for M+. I thought this was obvious?
sturdy python
Burst it down
spice surge
The argument that since overwhelming power is stronger than elemental whirl DD is better than SS
Is pretty ecksdee
strange python
im simming this rn
quiet crescent
i said for me eleem
strange python
Without arrays
quiet crescent
I SAID MY DD SIMS HIGHER ST
thats all i said
i never said everyones
MY PERSONAL GEAR
reading comprehension
I dont have a ss hat
pastel vault
ANGRYdome
craggy helm
but if youre talking a 500dps ST upgrade, you can see how that's definitely worse for the rest of the dungeon, so the SS will overall come out on top?
quiet crescent
thats why i sometimes run DD over archive for high underots
BRO i dont have a ss helm ffs
if i did i would wear it
craggy helm
didn't click your link, you just said SS and DD as the sims
quiet crescent
im talking about dd over my other hat
quiet crescent
i always run my two ss pieces tawney
i was saying i wear my dd helm sometimes over archive
reading is hard
i understand
underrot or temple
sturdy python
You didn't say that to me, our discussion was simply DD vs ss
craggy helm
I think the real debate comes from whether MA + EB is better or subt + SS is better. Is the aoe increase worth the ST sacrifice?
quiet crescent
no you jumped in late
quiet crescent
and started spewing mindless nonesense
sturdy python
Yes it was mindless
craggy helm
I AM @sturdy python! LOL. It's 8.1, why are we NOT talking about EB
strange python
Alright since 3 minute fights are more realistic https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/bwBaVJXH2YKGc3zBNB7Nzu
sturdy python
Cause I throw around personal insults in the convos
spice surge
I said ddx1 2xss is good in some very high Tyran
umbral hemlock
I sometime run blindside talent with swirwling sands just because I am pr0 flex
sturdy python
^and I claimed it wasnt
strange python
2SS+1DD is 347 DPS ahead than 2SS+1archive
quiet crescent
okay
craggy helm
I see a psychological argument for blindside, EP falling off pisses me off
sturdy python
Might as well bring a lock instead of the rogue if you're that worried about st
quiet crescent
thanks for that
strange python
2ss with archive is going to benefit you way more on m+
since archive isnt strictly a st trait
quiet crescent
zzzz
sturdy python
Probably less since archive would probably be built
dark crag
Why not scent
little sparrow
3x SS is better anyway
spice surge
I heard EB with MA is good
sturdy python
Lol
craggy helm
^amen
quiet crescent
wish i had 3xss
sturdy python
I'm sure it's fine
little sparrow
MA EB is pointless
craggy helm
why?
little sparrow
The ST loss is gigantic, and SS is just better
sturdy python
Probably because SS/scent and subt do similar aoe and much more st
quiet crescent
its more than 300 dps michee
untold current
Is your running MA EB is there any reason to have even 1 SS?
craggy helm
"just better" is a pretty crappy reason. I dont think the ST loss is that gigantic. and the aoe gain is huge.
quiet crescent
nice try, wondering why you didnt link it
dark crag
Wasnt eb nerfed?
untold current
Like isn't the value of SS come from subt?
simple ocean
Yes
craggy helm
SS + subt definitely do not do similar aoe to EB + MA
vestal wren
yes but eb is still strong
little sparrow
The fact you think the ST loss isn't gigantic is crazy, SS provides very good AoE and competitive ST especially paired with exsang
fallow estuary
How the fuck do you sim 19,5k without uldir trait?
dark crag
Eb + ma for shrine
sturdy python
3 mins
spice surge
3 min fight
quiet crescent
he simmed me for 3min
vestal wren
yes i think blizz should nerf ss even more to make it only good on sustained cleave
dark crag
Ss + sub for kr
strange python
Now that I linked the sim, does it prove that going DD for m+ is just not a good idea?
quiet crescent
no
untold current
No I'm not talking numbers. I'm saying if you decide to run EB proper with MA wouldn't the third azerite slot be better utilized by something other than SS?
strange python
Well good talk then
craggy helm
@untold current that's what im saying
quiet crescent
I like dd+2xss for underrot first boss
strange python
scent of blood x3 or gtfo
quiet crescent
on a 15+ tyran
strange python
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaa
sick cradle
!wa
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination WA's for BFA:
https://wago.io/HJUbINlV7 (Mizerok's Group)
https://wago.io/E1EB91OtM (Lokkek's Group)
https://wago.io/SyLUNGD4X (Sovv's Group)
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)
strange python
FFS
sturdy python
Yes of course, no subt for SS makes it a lot worse
Underrot first boss isn't even completely st
quiet crescent
you kill one add
sturdy python
And your archive will be at 20 now that you can't skip
strange python
2SS & 1DD is 350 dps better than 2SS & 1Archive
little sparrow
If you arenr saving vanish for 1st add you arent living
strange python
How are you going to pick DD for m+ in this situation
quiet crescent
cough nighelf druid
sturdy python
Aaaaaand something to be said for the st burdt of exs/ss
craggy helm
I'd be willing to bet 2xEB + 1XSoB/1xDD/1xArchive with MA would outperform subt+SS on fortified weeks.
quiet crescent
you kill one add if you dont kill him before the second ones come out get ripped
craggy helm
whereas subt + SS would outperform on tyranical weeks
little sparrow
SS is crazy good, idk why people want EB to be good so bad when the nerf nuked the trait lol
quiet crescent
I love ss, wish i could run 3
quiet crescent
or evena high scent would be nice
craggy helm
Undaddy was running EB in +22 atal last night doing crazy damage. It's definitely still strong.
quiet crescent
eb is good for those stupid dino packs for sure in AD
and the pull before third boss
but, i still think its not gonna be that great in some dungeons
vestal wren
i assume you run 3x EB + 3x ss once you have access to 6 traits
quiet crescent
that being said i only have a 390 and 355 piece so who knows
cobalt gyro
probably yea
sick cradle
!ss
cobalt gyro
or 3 scent 3 ss
sturdy python
Or 3 scent 3 eb!
untold current
Which talent would u take tho MA or subt?
spice surge
Yes
craggy helm
lol
strange python
For what?
untold current
3 SS + 3 EB
sturdy python
That's why I feel like it's either SS/scent or scent/eb
strange python
Subt
vestal wren
i assume ma but its a good question
strange python
You're not going to have any use from SS if u go MA
dark crag
Blizz should nuke 3 stack traits
craggy helm
I'd rather triple empowered garotte out of stealth than triple EB crits
quiet crescent
def sub for me, cause NELF
my dream is to have 3xss 3xsob
would be fun
@strange python
dungeon slice Archive vs DD
thats was my point of underrot
i'll take the extra 500 dps on the hardest part to loss 3dps overall
quiet crescent
i know
quiet crescent
we simmed st before bud
craggy helm
not like it matters, but... just to be clear
quiet crescent
it was 500 difference
craggy helm
I know you did, and in ST it was 500 dps better.
craggy helm
but dungeon slice is including that ST. It's not separate.
pastel vault
You should sim a 90 second fight not a 5 minute
pastel vault
For UR first boss
quiet crescent
i dont think you can change time
ive never killed UR first boss that fast on tyran high keys homie
my groups not as strong as yours i guess
spice surge
I think they spawn at like 1.30, but realistically you can live for like another 5-10 seconds depending on who they target
strange python
hi guys i m new where i take the info for assasination rotation?
spice surge
In the guide in the pins @strange python
quiet crescent
you only kill the first add
pastel vault
Ya that's when you vanish
quiet crescent
yep
uncut marsh
!guide
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination Guide: http://www.ravenholdt.net/assassination-guide/
pastel vault
And ss rupture it and pump boss
quiet crescent
im not arguing that
im talking about a DD helm vs a archive, my two choices
i feel DD is stronger
archive isnt fully stacked because of death skip
pastel vault
Oh I'd probably take dd
pastel vault
On tyran
fallow estuary
!sims
prisma monolithBOT
BfA Simulations:
Herodamage: https://www.herodamage.com/rogue/
Bloodmallet: https://bloodmallet.com/index.html
craggy helm
just run LFR to get the single residuums to save up for a 385 helm. Easy
spice surge
I mean, if you had phrased your question like that from the start instead of being vague about dd being better than ss
pastel vault
Ya you won't kill first boss if everyone takes slightly worse ST gear for more aoe
spice surge
Everybody would've agreed with you
quiet crescent
tyhere was no question
michee said DD is straight trash
i said i've performed well with it
spice surge
For overall dungeon dps
quiet crescent
overall
spice surge
Not for first boss in UR, but w/e
pastel vault
It's funny a m+ boss is the hardest dps check in game rather than something from uldir
quiet crescent
so true
eleem you said if you need to wear single target traits to kill the first boss in underrot you shouldnt be doing it
ROFL
little burrow
You shouldn't bro
strange python
Roughly speaking, the enemy sequence being simulated looks something like this:
Boss for just over 2 minutes (lust will be used for this boss)
4–6 mobs for 11–19 seconds
1–3 mobs for 26–34 seconds
4–6 mobs for 11–19seconds
1–3 mobs for 26–34 seconds
Continue alternating between large and small packs until the end of the sim
There will be variable gaps of time between trash packs
11-19 seconds
SS doesn't even have time to tick
little burrow
"sims higher"
Oh you gave up arguing DD vs SS in m+?
I can't be bothered to read 200+ messages
little burrow
You spent like an hour doing it...
quiet crescent
no.. i said with my setup i choose between archive or dd
and on high tyran i prefer dd
certain dungeons
strange python
If you're doing bigger pulls, you won't be even using Mut so DD basically becomes useless
sweet oasis
anyone been running EB yet?
quiet crescent
yep thats why i say certain dungeons
strange python
4+ targets is already fok over mut
And 4+ is basically all dungeons except maybe kr and tos
thus
Archive > DD overall for m+
quiet crescent
i agree for overall damage, im just saying its not complete trash like you said
it has uses
spice surge
When you dont have access to good traits, its not useless, that is true
craggy helm
and back to EB we are....>4 targets = EB is king.
craggy helm
fuck the old subt + SS days! I want my EB + MA damn it
out with the old in with the new
quiet crescent
lol
craggy helm
azerite traits were supposed to alter playstyles. I want something new and fun!
quiet crescent
ss+ssubt is fun
craggy helm
it was
quiet crescent
especially if you're nelf
craggy helm
for a couple months
quiet crescent
meh i still like it
lusty gale
whats rotation for EB cast 3 times FOK from stealth? then apply dots?
quiet crescent
then maybe ct for full meme aoe
lusty gale
thought middle talent is better than ct if u have EB?
craggy helm
see...... this is what i want to discuss. @lusty gale I tried it for a while on dummies, I ended up with TB + PB being the best mix
just because you lose so much ST from the EB
ofc if it's only aoe you need then CT wins out
sturdy python
That discussion on pb vs hb was coming down to whether you used finishers enough for pb to have value but that was before eb Nerf
So obviously you finish enough now
sturdy python
Yeah now. When eb was busted you just got 4 rups and spammed eb, finsihers weren't worth ig
In big pulls ofc
But I mean that hardly mattered, Fun tho
craggy helm
keeping envenom up is likely very important as well
strange python
ehhh
sturdy python
It wasnt
strange python
not really
craggy helm
ofc
sturdy python
But to the original point, it's still pb vs ct
sweet oasis
well if my other traits are SoB then def go PB right
sturdy python
Not necessarily no
It just depends on how big of packs you pull
And how long they live
tidal gorge
What if I told you
😎
That it's probably a wash between SS and EB and you can probably play however you want
sweet oasis
i only have 360 pieces of SS cuz im super unlucky 😦
craggy helm
How dare you @tidal gorge
sweet oasis
my 2 385 pieces are EB and SoB
craggy helm
there must be 1 spec to rule them all!
tidal gorge
FWIW, I'm probably going to go 3SS 3NP or 3SS 3EB myself depending on tyrannical/fortified. In an ideal world ofc. I kinda like the huge burst you get in the opener with NP
EB might be really good with reaping because of all the mobs you get to take down
quaint sequoia
is trinket from taloc any good?
nimble tartan
i see that sandbag 👀
is most accurate answer
bold mural
so i usually play outlaw and i seem to have a hard time trying to sustain single target damage as assa, the dps goes down a lot while vanish is on cd and empowered garrote and rupture are gone
not really sure what i'm doing wrong
paper heron
Should I not be bothering with ct on lower level keys ? Been Alting on a rogue doing 10s ish and by the time I’ve got the garrotes and CT out things are dead enough that ruptures are barely getting to tick.
Is it worth trying to spec more aoe when stuff does that fast or should I just focus on boss don’t
crisp steppe
it shouldn't matter too much anyway what you do in those lower keys so you're free to test things and see how that works out
important to remember that if things die quickly you don't need 5 cp ruptures on things
primal gazelle
@nimble tartan link to sim chart?
crisp steppe
get some 2-3 cp ruptures going gonna be nice
wary ice
If things are dying before a full CT rotation you either have a team of heavy AoE, arent pulling fat enough, or the content is not challenging enough for your teams ilvl
primal gazelle
or your grp has a DH
primal gazelle
the top m+ rogue streams are using 2x EB 1 SS with regular m+ talents
wary ice
i dig that for this week tbh
crisp steppe
@grim sable I am not 100% sure but I think https://www.herodamage.com/rogue/azerite-levels/hd-t22-assassination is updated with the nerfed eb
static shore
hey , guys what do u think about new alchemy trinkets?
hidden anchor
so 385 SS still better than 385 EB for m+?
primal gazelle
😮
fluid drift
EB scales way harder with number of mobs per pull, so it depends on the dungeon, tank, affixes, and key level
nimble tartan
its interesting how high mfd sims but u never see it
lusty gale
whats the rotation with mark for death?
rare jackal
introduce new trait
nerf it by 50%
its worthless once more
million dollar company btw
crisp steppe
how is it worthless
rare jackal
unlike SS it doesnt help you at all in ST
cobalt gyro
yeah but i mean
rare jackal
so in order to justify that trade off, it needs to to substantially more AOE damage
cobalt gyro
it wasn't just "strong"
rare jackal
which it doesnt do anymore
crisp steppe
I think it doe still do substantially more AoE dmg as long as you have a good amount of targets. whether thats a common scenario for most players idk
primal gazelle
one more 10% buff to eb and ill be satisfied 😃
cobalt gyro
yeah i mean the problem with it before was
that's not "substantially more" aoe damage, that's just busted
tame sun
Is it correct, that we want specc into poison bomb for multi target situations?
little burrow
Depends
PB is single target for sure, but if you've got, I think it's around 6-7 but I could be wrong, you want CT
tame sun
6-7 enemies?
little burrow
Yeah sorry
tame sun
thats a really rare situation
rare jackal
ofc the trait was overtuned
little burrow
Happens all the time in m_
rare jackal
but from the looks of it, tehy overnerfed it now
tame sun
okay, but if it "happens all the time in m+" shouldnt it be mentioned in the "guide"
tame sun
pre 8.1 there was written it depends but now its just PB
spice surge
Most of the time if you dont know what you're doing its better to take PB
Because PB is way easier
tame sun
ofc. but if i know what i'm doing i go CT, right?
especially on heavy kite affixes
in fortifeit
flint swift
I like CT in m+ it’s infinitely better for kiting
I usually take it regardless of affixes because I’m basic af
thick jacinth
if your group does big pulls take CT idk why this is a debate every morning
lone junco
@primal gazelle Did you run it with subterfuge SS yet? My slice came up that way and it feels wonky. Maybe the raw white bonus is more valuable than the crit proc
chilly obsidian
has the vanish bug been fixed yet?
untold cargo
yes
royal lantern
sooo....echoing blades is now good or crap?
chilly obsidian
ok thanjs
royal lantern
im confused
cobalt gyro
it's fine
chilly obsidian
really solid for aoe now as long as your tanks are pulling large groups
grim sable
eb is good for aoe and very bad for st
royal lantern
well, ofc its bad for st
cobalt gyro
only part that might make it ok for ST is that people run HB with it sometimes
which is something i guess 🤷
royal lantern
sooooo....i gues im ussing 1 xSS 1xEB and 1x archives now
dont have better options anyway for m+
primal gazelle
@lone junco havent tried yet
i trust 6 target 1 min sims more than a dungeon sim tho
thorny shore
is versa one of the best stats now right?
paper heron
It’s top 4 for sure
brave gyro
hold up, will the trinket from Conclave boss stack with our mastery? (BoD)
not stack* but will it be empowered, the more mastery we have
any clues from ptr?
brave gyro
What do you mean? Im just asking, these things are interesting to me
strange python
Why would it be empowered by our mastery
royal lantern
because its a bleed i gues?
i mean, stuff like that happens
that nighthold trinket on unholy dk as an example
strange python
Called?
brave gyro
our mastery buffs bleeds and poisons, so if its good damage, and it scales, it might be pretty dope
primal gazelle
draught of souls
crisp hollow
is SS>EB again for M+?
strange python
generally yeah
crisp hollow
fun while it lasted 😦
obtuse robin
if ur not pushing high keys with big brain pulls then use ss
brave gyro
I didnt have a sinle EB piece, so im glad it got cucked 
strange python
SS tooltip says 840+dmg ? i cant remember such high number there
crisp hollow
subterfuge-vanish fixed yet?
karmic ingot
EB is still strong after the nerf. SS is probably more flexible though.
wanton pond
dumb question but do bleed/poison ticks return energy?
i see a lot of people at like 7-9 % haste
and then stack crit mastery
strange python
wanton pond
for me my stat line is super even like 25 crit, 22, hast, 27 mast
should I ditching the haste and stacking crit or mast?
strange python
For m+ you can play lower haste if you're doing bigger pulls
And you generally play lower haste than raids
Since multidotting
brave gyro
Nature damage + Vendetta 30% + TB 30% nature dmg = 
obtuse robin
crit /mastery build (35% for me base) x2 eb x 1 ss master ass. really really good
wanton pond
35 for both crit and mast?
strange python
SS with MA?
brave gyro
considering that Subterfuge gives you +80% garrote damage.... prob not xD
wanton pond
hows sub doing with the updated trait?
i asked the other channel but no peeps chating
obtuse robin
was watching musclebruh last night he said cant get opver 20k overall with sub
ass 25k +
brave gyro
its because jaina last stage could get abused like zul
so they decided to remove it
you could make people become ice blocks (attackable) and just let 5-6 sub rogues cleave on them
royal lantern
yeha, and now shut up and roll afflock allready
random scroll
don't think it was a bad idea to remove shuriken combo because having to think about how it can be abused while designing a fight shouldn't be a thing
but not giving it something nice to compensate is meh
royal lantern
we could name the game world of rangedcraft at this point tbh
cobalt gyro
Tfd is okay compensation for now but it's obviously gonna be nerfed
tough skiff
Bis traits now?
strange python
Yeah
surreal solar
seeing the azerite gear in the new raid i might come back to sin
sand ledge
Seen some sims for master assassin and its higher than subterfuge and SS. Using a envenom spam build on taloc tonight to try it out using twist the knife and Nothing Personal it simd to 17.986 at 377 ilv. Thoughts?
crystal vault
hey whats your m+ setup stats wise, especially with echoing blades. Haste low as possible and push crit then mastery?
unreal kayak
what did blizz do with assa my st burst i lower and aoe is lower?
royal lantern
?they did nothing?
visual quartz
My ST feels good right now
random scroll
they've changed nothing
ornate gazelle
So it’s looking like the rotation in dungeons with EB is to just spam FoK and use CT and dot stuff if you feel like your energy is suffering, but otherwise spam FoK? Sooo much damage spamming FoK with EB.
random scroll
assa's the same as it was 2 days ago
you keep ruptures to have enough energy to use fok
ornate gazelle
Other than opening with your multi-Garrotes, is it even work wasting the global to refresh?
sick frost
untold current
Dont EB auto crit now?
crystal vault
i think we need a new assa m+ guide 
polar forge
sooo 2x EB 1x SS with subt and CT?
2x EB 1x archive MA and HB is decent burst
2x 390 EB btw
reef hornet
do people here have more than one stat out weigh Agility?
polar forge
i only have 1 ss rn anyway
wanton pond
if youre looking for a good stat line for m+ i see most top sins go super low haste
under 10% for sure
then stack crit mast
your bleeds and poisons on big packs should make up for lack of haste
polar forge
ik... wasnt my Q
wanton pond
wasnt responding to you x)
strange python
Evening,
I am 374-376 ilvl rogue asin, ivll depends what gear i put i am playing atm toxic blade & poison bomb
I am having huge mind storm with these stats what should i do simulate ( is it even trustable ) for mythic+ ( i understand for raids simulation)
I am having SS Echo and Twist knife for azerites .
Any help would helfull
help full*
Ravenholdt says one simulation say another :/
I tried to do with lower haste dungeoni +9 as it says on website my dps was broken as hell 😄
patent topaz
you can change stuff around and actually play and decide what feels/does the best
safe canopy
first night on ghuun progression any tips?
cursive dune
play a warlock
safe canopy
for padding obv though idc about mechanics 😃
strange python
@strange python Thats what i am wondering also ^^
velvet kernel
play ct
spice surge
Don't fret about p1 damage, it doesn't matter
spice surge
Unless you want to be a padlord ;)
strange python
@cursive dune i would gear it up but its boring in m +
spice surge
As long as you kill the ghuunies
thorny shore
yeah, same, going 3x 390 SS, shit stills op
untold current
Spawns matter the rest of it doesn't tho
But if u dont pad others will and you will look bad anyway so pad
half tulip
Anyone else having problems with Vendetta yanking you out of stealth? Wasn't happening last patch, and don't see anything about it in the patch notes.
half tulip
Oh...that might actually be it. It's been frustrating the hell out of me.
Been accidentally pulling ahead of time.
weak tundra
why would you vendetta pre-pull tho
strange python
Maybe because that mob doesn't always live for 20s
round harbor
?? Then why use vendetta
lone junco
Overrated.
plain jacinth
I use vendetta pre-pull on mythic ghuun so its up for the start of phase 2
velvet kernel
how fucking quick r ur orbs bro?
plain jacinth
pretty quick I guess
modest badge
how many rogues does ur guild bring?
plain jacinth
I was the only rogue, other rogue played on lock alt
I wasn't assigned to run any orbs so was able to parse well lol
rank 2 atm
round osprey
nimble tartan
no orbs pog
chilly hazel
any idea how does the new trinkets preform or location for that info?
viscid onyx
lone junco
as expected. He has pretty monster crit.
old quartz
!wa
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination WA's for BFA:
https://wago.io/HJUbINlV7 (Mizerok's Group)
https://wago.io/E1EB91OtM (Lokkek's Group)
https://wago.io/SyLUNGD4X (Sovv's Group)
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)
manic stirrup
I didnt get time to review the patch notes but does anyone know why sin has fallen so behind in uldir rankings?
rough agate
which rankings
old lagoon
Probably just a mixture of being relatively untouched while other classes got buffed and only being 3 days in the new patch.
idle vigil
Does anyone know a good tool to find the best in bags setup
like a way to sim all your loot in your bags?
flint swift
I used to use simpermut but I haven’t used it since bfa
I don’t know if it even exists anymore
manic stirrup
just the warcraftlog mythic uldir rankings
sin rogue now worst of 3 specs, and also middle of all specs. used to be top 3
royal lantern
w8, sin worse then outlaw at ST fights?
little burrow
Well sin stayed the same, and sub and outlaw got more mechanical changes because of the new traits
royal lantern
but thats stupid tbh, outlaw is way more aoe focused
hazy pebble
polar forge
2x EB 1x SS subt CT is nice in keys
lone junco
ayy
modest badge
after i went full crit
modest badge
nvm i lied
idle vigil
IS CT
worth it?
i tohught only if >5 adds
which means u almost never worth it in m+
lone junco
What
When are you not pulling adds
Let's pull one at a time with cc. Makes for a smoother key.
cobalt gyro
there's p much no reason to not use it on even moderately sized pulls
you just won't spam it like envenom until you have a shitload
strange python
Because the initial damage is bigger than envenom
idle vigil
even when taking into account fan/envenom proc?
strange python
Yes
5+ the initial CT is just better than envenom + fok
And the envenom buff is insignificant in aoe honestly
stark folio
!wa
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination WA's for BFA:
https://wago.io/HJUbINlV7 (Mizerok's Group)
https://wago.io/E1EB91OtM (Lokkek's Group)
https://wago.io/SyLUNGD4X (Sovv's Group)
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)
civic palm
No
pastel wasp
civic palm
On those specific mobs?
cobalt gyro
in general
civic palm
It's like that for the NPCs that are meant to the dodged by people that don't have normal stealth, or those times you have to follow someone but not too close.
Both were in Suramar.
It's not a stealth thing as stealth doesn't work in a circle like that.
cobalt gyro
ah, didn't really play legion
royal lantern
i hope i dont need too play a other spec in the next raidtier because they perform way better
sub and outlaw in bfa want me too cut my wrist
civic palm
Yeah there were some quests/WQs that required dodging some NPCs, and tailing an NPC.
thick jacinth
outlaw will be numero uno after the second tier traits
calling it now
has like 3 traits that scale insanely well
lone junco
Neg.
thick jacinth
hmm?
lone junco
3scent for m+
thick jacinth
wh-
civic palm
gigaNeg
thick jacinth
3SS 3EB pog champ
lone junco
Lolol
lone junco
1ss. 2fok. 3scet.
thick jacinth
did they buff scent
civic palm
Nope.
thick jacinth
or do ya'll have some weird hard on
civic palm
o _O
thick jacinth
literally look at herodamage
civic palm
EB does amp FoK damage, but that's not what you're there for.
royal lantern
wow, for 1 use, and then you are not allowed too use FoK again or you have either no azerite trait or no 100 talent
10/10talent with EB
thick jacinth
im not saying take it im saying it is better than SS with that talent
im a PB og
yes
lone junco
Eb has a buff to FOK included. HB opener hits for like 20k. Per mob. But it's not sustain
Once we have 3scent. I doubt there will be much spent outside more ruptures.
civic palm
The higher your keys or fatter your pulls, the more Scent wins over everything.
and yeah being able to get 3xSoB with other traits O _O
thick jacinth
you'd still want 1 EB for sure
lone junco
Yeah. Some of the 2scent pulls seli was doing held 45k for 20sec.
civic palm
Yeah, there's no better sustain AoE spec.
peak juniper
hey guys, question about TB. During rotation when TB comes up and don't have vanish or vendetta how do y'all recommend setting up for it?
thick jacinth
3SS 2 SoB 1 EB
lone junco
With scent. The raw FOK white is going to be massive.
peak juniper
like just have pooled energy and TB at no CP?
civic palm
3 scent.
cobalt gyro
yea, 370 agility pre rupture
civic palm
Agility is too important.
cobalt gyro
yep, totally bad
peak juniper
or what CP do y'all recommend to build to b4 pop it?
cobalt gyro
totally
civic palm
TIS GET YER MESS OUTTA HERE
cobalt gyro
imagine having a potion active for the entire pull
civic palm
thick jacinth
agility is my second lowest simming stat on 6 target 40 second sim
civic palm
When you have 10k AGI it doesn't matter how bad it is.
lone junco
Yeah. Slice likes SS. Due to the small packs.
civic palm
well I mean it could matter... but seriously...
cobalt gyro
that's at only i370 btw
royal lantern
its a shitton of agility
royal lantern
agility boost EVERYTHING
lone junco
I like SS. Ggg Ct is a monster.
royal lantern
your dot dmg, instant dmg, melee hit dmg, everything
civic palm
Scent is literally just brute forcing damage.
cobalt gyro
you're gonna put out at minimum 4 ruptures in a big pull anyway
fringe urchin
are they a wa for enpowerd garrots ?
lone junco
But tabbing out the ruptures makes for raw white FOK.
sturdy python
We just need 3xscent 3xss!
nimble tartan
this is why i dont gear through sims and only use my feels
and thats why im the best rogue
cobalt gyro
that's 1500 agi
civic palm
T _T
ruby idol
3 scent 2 eb 1 ss will probably be the play if were being honest here
cobalt gyro
ye
lone junco
Omr just asks me to read my magic 8ball.
civic palm
Yeah 1 or 2 of SS and EB.
spice surge
Yeah we dont want any emotional disturbances when we talk traits
sturdy python
And b magic 8 ball you mean !rtb in off topic
cobalt gyro
tru
civic palm
Yeah pull size is a consideration.
sturdy python
Fort vs tyr too
lone junco
3ss 3scent. Is prob my groups bis. Giga pulls prob 1ss2eb3sceng.
ruby idol
Regardless im gonna run 2 eb 1 scent with ma tb hb tn
lone junco
Gl getting the scent with the crit 2ndaary.
ruby idol
Either embrace of put an end to the meme
civic palm
The best thing regarding all of this is that there are no fucking procs.
ruby idol
Or*
lone junco
Fokfokfokfokfokdjnfokfokfokfokf.
cobalt gyro
i didn't notice scent being amazing, but it's most likely because i'm bad at ruptures
sturdy python
I mean fok>rup
civic palm
,<
sturdy python
You got this
ruby idol
Well it depends on how you pull and how long packs are
lone junco
If you've seen 8 rupture buffs. Watch it go.
ruby idol
Your avg group in 10-15 keys doesnt allow for enough scent value
lone junco
Need high crit to get the 3+ cp. FOK r. FOK r.
civic palm
Clearly BiS
cobalt gyro
lmao
civic palm
EZ +682822 AGI
lone junco
Sims it.
sturdy python
Lol
lone junco
Yeah. I had to relog to fix that.
spring iron
What's the current stat weight for sin?
civic palm
Depends on what stats you currently have, though as a general guideline -
civic palm
heh
Should also be noted that posting questions here and not in private will probably get your the rightest answer, as one person could just be very wrong about something.
spring iron
Currently, 21% Crit, 16% Haste, 27% Mast, 5% Vers.....
sand gust
dear whho ever can help i was 362 on ghuun and im really new to rogue i didnt know if i should aoe or single target the tentacles before ghuun comes out my dps was 9.9k and was removed from the raid does any one know how i should open by the way i was 350 and got geared until the raid was over and my azerite traits were for outlaw
civic palm
Change your traits > _>"
sand gust
so thats all it is right i had my traits wrong should be good next run
civic palm
No I can't know what you did that run. But having the wrong traits is a clear issue.
sand gust
kk thhanks mistletoe
civic palm
DoT whatever you can, make sure you have your DPS Cooldowns for the burn phase leading into Phase 3.