assassination

[young socket]

What traits are meta in M+ right now? Rocking SS/DD/Blightborne

[winter moss]

3x SS and exsang

[young socket]

Exsang worth w/ 1 SS?

[winter moss]

yeah

mean

it provides priority dmg

subjective opinion

otherwise

[thin trout]

i'm full of 370+ gear, except my neck and weapons are so low 😢 thats why I still only get 355 azerite gear feelsbad

[winter moss]

[cloud grove]

I don't think it works like that Mywiddlepony

my DH is 364 and gets 370

getting from when I was 363

[nocturne gate]

is the apl using blindeside correctly ? asking bc ingame tooltip say 30% but its already usable at 35% so i want to know if the sims are correct

[vast forum]

Blindside is garbage

Simmed correctly or not it just sucks

[nocturne gate]

wasnt my question ^^

[burnt lagoon]

guys for m+. should i go 3xSS with 1 of them being 340, or 2xSS and 1xArchive(385)

[prime stirrup]

teeming fort prob 3xss all other weeks prob 2xss

[vast forum]

Archive @burnt lagoon

340-385 is way too big of a difference

And archive is really good in m+ if you don't die

[burnt lagoon]

aight thanks mate

[timber pewter]

are you meant to use envenom to maintain elaborate planning or just use it whenever

[winter moss]

youll not be able to get 100% uptime on it but yes

[ember coral]

Sorry to ask this here, but anyone can explain the interest of gsync with a 1080ti ?

[supple wolf]

Interest?

Gsync basically just make your hz follow your fps

[ember coral]

So if I get a 60hz 4K gsync, and go to 200fps, my monitor will be 200hz?

[supple wolf]

If your fps can stick at 100, 120 or 144 to your screens hz, gsync will kinda be obsolete

[sick eagle]

Is it normal for Haste to sim 0.3 higher than agility even with 24%?

[supple wolf]

No monitor won't go 200hz when it's a 60hz

But go off topic with this

[abstract thunder]

!help

[wide nebula]

hey does the 3. talent on row 1 proc from sinister strike before i get mutilate

[queen scaffold]

How viable is potion of bursting blood compared to agility in assassination rogue?

[spice surge]

@nocturne gate Iirc its not worth using blindside unless the free proc from mutilate is up, so it doesnt really matter if its on 30% or 35%

But the people working on simc know about it triggering at 35% so it should be in simc pretty soon

[quiet valve]

@timber pewter use envenom when all ur dots are up and u have 4-5 combo points

you don't really need to keep track of it as long as you follow your rotation/priorities

[queen scaffold]

!help

[quiet valve]

@queen scaffold You can sim it for your character.

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/stats

[queen scaffold]

@quiet valve i use simulation craft how do I tweak it to compare the two.

[spice surge]

Simulation options > More options > Potion box

[queen scaffold]

Thanks so much

[quiet valve]

Just open 2 raidbots sites, and as @spice surge said, you can switch between the 2

[fierce tinsel]

got a piece with a second SS, but have to sacrifice archive for titans for it. is it worth it for m+?

[marble hemlock]

yes

[fierce tinsel]

And the when I garrote I will get 5 combo points?

[marble hemlock]

no

[fierce tinsel]

3 again?

[marble hemlock]

the CP generation of the trait does not stack

[fierce tinsel]

ah ok

[marble hemlock]

its just about the damage, and how it scales well with subterfuge

[fierce tinsel]

mm ok will try it out then, is it better to use exch then also for m+ ?

[marble hemlock]

being able to cast 3 empowered garrotes on 3 mobs on trash, which basically removes the ramp-up for your damage since just those 3 GCDs already provide a significant amount of damage

you mean exsang? yes.

[fierce tinsel]

yes

I usually do garrote 1st, garrote 2nd, rupture, garrote 3rd

that seems ok?

[vast forum]

No

Then your 3rd garrote is ourside the subterfuge window

[fierce tinsel]

so 3 garrotes fast even if you are losing combo points

[marble hemlock]

yup

[fierce tinsel]

okie

[marble hemlock]

the damage you get from doing 3 garrotes back to back with the subterfuge/ss trait bonus vastly outweighs the loss in efficiency from overcapping CP

[fierce tinsel]

then you get 3 ruptures up or just focus on one mob ?

I usually try to get ruptures at start before fanning

[steep obsidian]

isnt it in the guide?

[lament dove]

without SS sure, but with SS you should get that 3 garrotes up first

[steep obsidian]

hmmm

[marble hemlock]

just gonna copypaste what i wrote about how i do 8+ mob pulls

http://puu.sh/BTml9/49f02ed9e8.png

[fierce tinsel]

ok many thanks for this will study it 😃

[marble hemlock]

even without SS traits you would still want triple garrote opener on aoe

[steep obsidian]

i cant think of any 8 mob pulls i do lol but i guess my group sucks

i mean maybe with low hp mobs in the pull

i dont do stupid high keys either though

[marble hemlock]

i mean the same still applies to smaller packs, you just wont be getting 4-5cp foks nearly as often, slowing down the multidotting a bit

which will lead to you not being able to spam CT, but just maintaining it instead

[steep obsidian]

i like to garotte painful motivation ravager cast in freehold to trigger my group members

im pro like that

[marble hemlock]

not that bad though, especially if you pull double ravager

you kinda want to interrupt one of their casts, or just keep the second one CCed for a few seconds, since the painful motivbation only applies to 2 nearby targets. so if youre pulling all of them together, its very likely that one or 2 of the mobs wont get affected at all, and then youll have to clean them up afterwards. if you delay the second motivation a bit, you can kill both packs with just that cast.

[steep obsidian]

i dunno i only did the dungeon at a decent key a few times but people group bitched at me hard 😛

thanks for tip

[strange python]

Is ct the go to for m+ I assume

[spiral snow]

LOL

L O L

L O L

I haven't laughed so fucking much in ages

[steep obsidian]

wut

[frank haven]

Kill him rather ? seems dumb to waste dps just to lower healing, rather than just burning through the healing? I'm assuming Heroic boss?

[spiral snow]

pls tell me

no.......

no..........

why........

[gentle belfry]

Jesus christ lmao

[marble hemlock]

usually theres someone else who can provide mortal strike effects

[spiral snow]

WHY, JUST WHY

[marble hemlock]

like an arms

and if there are not, switch to wound poison when he eats the eggs, and then switch back to DP

[frank haven]

we've only just started mythic fetid progression, but as far as i know the point is to kill them before they heal ? : )

[spiral snow]

if he eats and egg it's a wipe pretty much anyways though

[frank haven]

if you cant get eggs down and they/the boss heal your problem isnt healingreduction, it's dps. making you gimp your dps even more seems very backwards

[steep obsidian]

you can get a few ticks of healing on the eg tho and still kill it

[frank haven]

so tell your raidleader to go fuck himself ?:D

[steep obsidian]

before he eat it

but yeh

wp is silly

i think warrior can still do ms cant they?

frost mage and spriest too?

or is that old

i never pay attention to other classes

[frank haven]

who needs other classes when you're an uber l33t ninja

[steep obsidian]

tru

[robust flower]

Is SS still usable for raids or should I focus on trying to get some other traits?

[steep obsidian]

its not horrible but other combos might sim highe

[marble hemlock]

oh you were talking mythic fetid

LOL

id look for a new guild or raidleader :>

[winter moss]

incarnated

[frank haven]

according to herodamage double dose is better in pretty much every aspect it would seem ? Tho the ravenholdt guide doesnt even mention it in the traits section. Anyone care to explain, I'm very new here

[strange python]

"For more information you can check out Herodamage for more traits or run a simulation for your character and the item(s) in question."

[steep obsidian]

ss is op for dungeons because you get to restealth a lot

simple as that

[marble hemlock]

theres been some changes to traits etc. a few weeks ago, so im just gonna assume that the guide hasnt been updated in a while

[steep obsidian]

for raid bosses ss loses a lot because its tied only to vanish of course

[marble hemlock]

but double dose is the best spec-specific trait, and also one or stricly the best trait, including generic/raid ones

(for singletarget)

[velvet kernel]

You need to select esxsang as well on herodamage

[winter moss]

seliathan may i ask you a very personal question to your rogue play

[velvet kernel]

Or ss will look ass

[winter moss]

can u teach me?

[spice surge]

"Look ass" its the fifth best trait with tb

[strange python]

😬

[spice surge]

second best spec specific

[velvet kernel]

if you dont select exsang it will sim with MA

which makes ss ass.....

[spice surge]

No

[strange python]

Subterfuge

[spice surge]

Your talking about bloodmallet, herodamage sims different talents if they synergize with that trait

[velvet kernel]

that changed

[supple hearth]

@marble hemlock what m+ traits do u use

[marble hemlock]

i run 2x385 scent and 1x385 ss

id run more SS if i had higher ilvl ones, but didnt get lucky with emissary/weekly chest

[desert vault]

I want some DD love today, have 0 DD pieces

[supple hearth]

If equal ilvl you'd use triple ss?

[marble hemlock]

ye

definitely

[winter moss]

got 1x DD for raiding purpose

[dapper wraith]

I use triple SS in M+

[marble hemlock]

i think once we get into pushing gigahigh keys, SS will drop in value and scent will become the way to go

[winter moss]

gigahigh like 20+ or 18-20?

[supple hearth]

I've been using 385 scent helm and 370 ss pieces x2

[marble hemlock]

at which point we would probably switch from subter+vigor to nightstalker/ds, open with saved 6cp NS CT, build ruptures for scent during its duration, and once it runs out we spam 6CP CTs

[strange python]

NS gives 50% more damage, but does it make the DoTs of CT tick 50% more damage?

[marble hemlock]

but right now the raw-damage from SS just scales better than primary/secondary stats do. thatll change once we get higher ilvl again, same as it was in legion

yes

[strange python]

damn

[marble hemlock]

NS increases both the instant and tick damage, but you will obviously lose that NS bonus if you recast CT before it runs out

and right now subterfuge is just straightup better

even without any SS traits it still would be the go-to choice, for energy reasons

[winter moss]

when should one start using ct in m+? not sure most of the time it feels not worth using (range 13-16)

[strange python]

Bigger pulls

[marble hemlock]

level of the key doesnt matter, its the size of the packs thats the deciding factor

if your tank only pulls 3-4mobs at a time, you wont get nearly as much value out of CT compared to a tank pulling double/triple packs all the time

but CT works very well even in +2, since its the first GCD after the triple garrote. even if mobs die very quickly, you still got the initial hit already, which is still more value than any other finisher you couldve used instead

[winter moss]

yeah my tank most of time pulls pack by pack. maybe 2 small packs together

but max 5 mobs

so according its not worth

or am i wrong here

[long hill]

@marble hemlock

[marble hemlock]

hard to say, just try it out really

if your CT at the end of the dungeon isnt anything more than ~5-6%, you might be better off playing PB

[winter moss]

i watched your stream so many times but with 2packs it makes way more sense than "casual" players

[marble hemlock]

since PB usually makes up ~3-4% of your overall damage, and CT comes at some opportunity cost due to having to spend CP on it instead of envenom/rupture

so if CT is less than ~6%, id say you will fare better with PB. not necessarily dps-wise, but its also a lot easier/smoother to play with PB on smaller packs

[winter moss]

CT triggers venomous wounds right?

[spice surge]

No

[marble hemlock]

CT only works well if you generate enough CP to actually use it, which is crit-based and based on how many mobs you pull on average

no

[spiral snow]

shouldn't they actually make it trigger wounds though

[strange python]

No

[winter moss]

would make sense

[strange python]

You would have energy overflow

[spice surge]

No it doesnt make sense. Unless its at like 10% of the regular values

[marble hemlock]

would be absolutely broken

[strange python]

It just wouldnt be fair rofl

[marble hemlock]

keep in mind that the reason why our sustained aoe right now is one of the best, if not the best, in the entire game, is because we scale so well with increasing our resource-generation

if CT were to generate energy through VW, theyd have to nerf its damage accordingly, and we would be right back where we were in legion, where getting energy-capped wasnt a hard task to achieve but it lead to us not scaling well into AoE situations

[winter moss]

well on bigger packs youll overflow anyway on energy?

[marble hemlock]

right now our energy generation on ST is very limited, and with big enough packs we can reach that point in aoe where we sustain ~30energy/sec, which makes our AoE so great

[spiral snow]

who cares about fair just let me destroy everything and have fun Kappa

[marble hemlock]

yeah @winter moss

you cap on energy on bigger aoe pulls, or at least you can cap, ideally you dont

(unless youre running scent)

[calm grail]

Spam that Fan! Spend that energy!

[winter moss]

so the impact of CT triggering venmous wounds wouldnt be that big, but maybe would make some ruptures obsolete

[strange python]

IT would

[calm grail]

Spread alllllll the dots

[strange python]

It absolutely would be

[marble hemlock]

but ideally you keep a perfect balance on aoe between keeping up just enough ruptures to sustain teh energy to spam abilities every GCD, and using all the remaining cp for CT spamming

it would make our aoe rotation incredibly simple

[calm grail]

If Crimson Tempest triggered venomous wounds you would have literally almost double the energy region

[marble hemlock]

since it would just be fok+ct

[calm grail]

Regen*

That honestly sounds like it would feel terrible

[marble hemlock]

the reason CT scales so well in aoe right now, is because its hard to sustain energy on aoe

so it can give better rewards when you do it right

if it was super easy

they would most likely nerf its effectiveness in return

[calm grail]

4 ruptures seems to be the moneyzone

[marble hemlock]

4-5, yep

depends a bit on your haste value

with as low haste as possible, you generally need 5

when hitting 10-15% haste, 4 are enough

[calm grail]

I found that when I am maintaining more than 4 or 5 something else is lacking for it.

Either CT fell off or I'm doing something wrong.

[hollow trail]

what if you have 21% haste? could 3 or 4 cut it?

[strange python]

Probably yeah

[dense quest]

if ct works with vp I think it would be in our ST rotation too

[strange python]

But you dont need as much haste for m+

[marble hemlock]

i dont think so caffbat

it might be, but why would you force that much haste

[calm grail]

If you have 21% haste in m+ you probably need to adjust your gear

[hollow trail]

thats just the way my gear has fallen tbh

[calm grail]

I don't have that much haste in my raiding gear that is almost 380.

Without array

[hollow trail]

22% crit, 21% haste, 28% mastery

[winter moss]

13% haste on m+ gear an it feels smooth as heck

[marble hemlock]

having that high haste means youll have mediocre crit/mastery, which would cut into your overall throughput

[winter moss]

28% mast

[marble hemlock]

generating less CP but needing fewer ruptures, vs generating more CP but requiring an additional rupture

so stacking haste would only make things easier, but it would lead to lower overall dps

[winter moss]

with 21%crit chances that you can cast a rupture every 2nd gcd are high

[marble hemlock]

sicne its a bad throughput stat, compared to crit/mastery

[calm grail]

I have the simulation results seli, but I want your "feelings" on a 365 spyglass versus 370 Azzerock

[marble hemlock]

spyglass

and no lordmcgyver

having 20% crit

[calm grail]

Okay, that's what the simulation said too.

[marble hemlock]

means youd need 20mobs to somewhat reliably get 5cp every fok

[winter moss]

yeah reliably getting 5cp

[marble hemlock]

30% crit however cuts that number down significantly

[winter moss]

rngesus favors some players tho

not saying 20% crit is a magic number

[marble hemlock]

more CP = easier to generate the additional rupture you need for energy sustain, so at that point youre just breaking even. but more cp = more CT spam too, and thats where you will pull ahead

[winter moss]

but id rather put some haste in mastery in that case

[calm grail]

I pretty much never have time for Envenom in m+ until there's like 2 adds left. This is pretty common right? Damage seems fine even without it. Kind of wish it had a purpose being weaved in more though like last tiers bonus.

[marble hemlock]

yeah

[calm grail]

I really liked Antorus set bonus in retrospect.

[marble hemlock]

envenom is bad right now, it was great in legion because of the tierset and poison knives trait, but right now its basically useless for aoe

even with those traits/setbonus, it would still be much worse now because our poisons deal a pitiful amount of dps on aoe

[calm grail]

I wasn't super fond of agonizing poison, but in retrospect I think all of our tier bonuses were kind of nice.

Even tomb.

[strange python]

Tier bonuses

[marble hemlock]

tomb in particular was nice, since it made us play very differently in m+

[strange python]

What are those

[calm grail]

When Garrote was 15 seconds not 6

[strange python]

🤔

[marble hemlock]

tomb set bonus was somewhat similar to SS in effectiveness

[winter moss]

tomb

[calm grail]

Could you imagine if that set bonus existed now with azerite gear

Ooooof

[marble hemlock]

i was playing that for a while actually

t204pc+2ss

[calm grail]

I like the Nighthold shit too except it made target swapping total aids.

[marble hemlock]

i think noobe is running 4pct20, 2xss, sephuz and capacitor in timewalking, makes for some fun moments

[calm grail]

If you popped Garrote at a bad time and you had to target swap, rip 10% Envenom dmg for a bit.

[marble hemlock]

i liked AP in general, its just that most of the weapon traits just gave it 1% effectiveness or smth like that, while having fairly interesting interactions with DP instead

like poison knives

[calm grail]

I made that mistake A lot on Elisande.

[marble hemlock]

so for m+ you had to swap between DP/AP depending on whether you were doing trash or bosses

which wasnt too bad actually

[hollow trail]

so @marble hemlock, given my stats here id be better of swapping out my gems then? I've simmed the gem/enchant options in both directions but its all very similar.

[winter moss]

but switching to dp after every boss funny tho

[marble hemlock]

for m+ i feel thats way too much haste, and not nearly enough crit

[calm grail]

I think our current iteration (assuming good traits) is pretty fun.

[winter moss]

it put some mangement in it

[calm grail]

I think we are one of the few classes that is probably satisfied with our current state.

[marble hemlock]

definitely, assa right now feels very nice

its one of the most complex specs for aoe

[calm grail]

I mean poisoned bomb is useless and boring

But otherwise.

[marble hemlock]

and it rewards good gameplay

with very high dps

thats how it should be honestly

[calm grail]

I got a real strong pinky from that tab dotting.

[winter moss]

so do you keep garrote up in bigpacks or just rupture and CT

[hollow trail]

im able to consistently manage 20-24k in aoe pulls pretty well maybe ill try regemming and see what happens.

[marble hemlock]

no unempowered garrotes in any pack that has =>4 mobs

[calm grail]

Garrote from stealth then CT and Ruptures

[winter moss]

insta saved

[marble hemlock]

keep in mind i play double scent

for most people hitting 4-5 ruptures is the cut-off, at which point you just use any additional CP to spam CTs while maintaining 4-5 ruptures

[spiral snow]

@marble hemlock what about catalyst/2x ss

ah

[calm grail]

Double scent by choice or by the Box God's choosing?

[marble hemlock]

both

[spiral snow]

box god's

[marble hemlock]

i love scent

[calm grail]

I got lucky last week and hit my second 385 SS

[winter moss]

i have the option to play either 2SS1scent or 2scent 1SS in m+

[spiral snow]

2ss definitely

[marble hemlock]

i got 2x385 scent

[calm grail]

I want a scent hood. Don't need Archive for m+

[marble hemlock]

so i choose those over 345 SS

[spiral snow]

40 ilvl difference POG

[calm grail]

Right now I am two 385 SS 370 Archive

[marble hemlock]

if the ilvl difference were smaller, id switch depending on affixes

[calm grail]

Hoping to replace that archive with a scent

[marble hemlock]

fortified is better for scent, tyra is better for SS

[winter moss]

2scent 1SS would be 385 on all azerite items, 2SS 1scent would be 2 370 azerites

[calm grail]

If you had triple 385 SS would you run it?

Or still 1 scent?

[spiral snow]

he would go 3x ss

[marble hemlock]

id go triple SS, yeah

i do think that scent will surpass SS at higher ilvls

and when infested is gone

so we can finally do giga pulls

[calm grail]

My helm is my last non maxed out SS piece. Wondering what I should try to put there. Archive seems okay for now.

Especially if I get one off of vectis this week

[winter moss]

will scent become useful for st tho

[spiral snow]

they should never ever implement something like infested, let ppl do giga ass pulls if they want to

[marble hemlock]

nah

scent will only be good on aoe or council like encounters

unless they change scent the way id love for them to change it

increase the value, cap it at 5stacks

😃

[spice surge]

The new +10 affix sounds pretty cool, it could be like the ghosts in sunken temple

[marble hemlock]

yeah

itll be cool

until one mob revives right before you kill the other 8 mobs in the pack on a bolstering week

[winter moss]

havent read anything on the new trait

short explain or shall i go to wowhead

[spice surge]

Yeah well depends on if it is revived or just a ghost

[marble hemlock]

some mobs will be marked, similar to infested ones, and those will resurrect once

[winter moss]

how will this work out wit VW

[calm grail]

Spotters for siege

[spice surge]

Any source on that? bring vengeance from the grave isnt necessarily a revive

[calm grail]

Infinite utility

[marble hemlock]

nah, its just how i interpret the tooltip

[long hill]

@marble hemlock is it better a 370 piece or a 340 with SS? for mythic+ ofc

[marble hemlock]

340

ss

[desert vault]

Anyone know if the masses on Fetid have a "backside" in terms of DiTB effectiveness?

[marble hemlock]

theres no trait that can compare right now. scent/archive/tradewinds are pretty decent if theyre much higher ilvl, but SS is always going to be good

[spiral snow]

I just hope it won't be something like infested that can mess your pulls instantly LUL

[ionic charm]

Some 370 traits would be worth using, what traits do to have @long hill

[long hill]

Artinz tradewinds

[calm grail]

One time I got the adds before first boss in shrine invested.

[ionic charm]

And the sin trait?

[calm grail]

Infested*

[ionic charm]

There should be one more

[long hill]

@ionic charm sharpen

[calm grail]

That was fun.

[ionic charm]

Yeah use the ss

[long hill]

Poisoned wire

[calm grail]

Add a bonus effect to poison wire. Garrote also applies DP on application.

Boom

[marble hemlock]

always gotta keep in mind that getting full value out of SS is a given. getting full value out of traits like archive, tradewinds, blightborne, or scent, requires very precise and optimal gameplay

[spiral snow]

infested isn't even hard though, it's just there to slow down your advance, which makes it increasingly annoying in my book

[marble hemlock]

yup

most affixes artifically slow you down

[spiral snow]

mythic+ is all about speedrun: OH WAIT INFESTED HEHE U NEED TO SLOW DOWN BOII HEHE

[calm grail]

I hateeeeeeee bolstering.

[ionic charm]

If ss is a given then scent is a given... ss isnt going to be perfect for every situation, and infested loses it’s value immensely

[marble hemlock]

you could pull bigger, but affixes make it impossible to do so

[topaz notch]

i forgot, what is poison wire?

[spiral snow]

bolstering and explosive should also be removed/reworked too

bursting too

[calm grail]

Explosive is fine.

[spiral snow]

u can't do big pulls though :/

[calm grail]

Bursting too.

[winter moss]

27bolster stack on a spotter in siege. nice outplay blizzard

[calm grail]

Bursting is a healer problem.

[marble hemlock]

scent requires efficient multidotting beyond just the 4-5 ruptures for energy sustain. SS requires you to hit the garrote button three times in a row. one of them is significantly harder to achieve

[spiral snow]

@calm grail you can't outheal 12 bursting stacks

[calm grail]

You can cloak them

[long hill]

@topaz notch mutilate traits

[calm grail]

And yeah you can heal it.

[spiral snow]

@calm grail what about my team bro Kappa cloak too? xd

[calm grail]

I had a Holy Paladin do it frequently last expansion.

[spiral snow]

LAST EXPANSION

boi we are at 370+ ilvl

[marble hemlock]

most of the affixes worked well in legion dungeons, and suck in bfa dungeons, because they have very different design philosophies behind them

[topaz notch]

Explosive isnt fine, u dont pug? xD u get in a group, every1 acts like explosive are immune to non rogue damage, end of the dungeon people say, hey why so fucking low dps noob rogue

[calm grail]

No I don't PuG

PuGs make me mad.

[spiral snow]

it's first tier, ppl don't have crazy stats to outheal things. same like grievous week, was really hard for healers because they didn't have the required gear

[marble hemlock]

having vastly different healthpools on mobs in the same pack makes affixes like sanguine or bolstering a lot more annoying to deal with. emphasis on me saying "annoying" and not "difficult"

[winter moss]

the explosive affix makes no sense to me in bfa, just the story behind it

[calm grail]

Sanguine on infested worms is 👌

[ionic charm]

@marble hemlock and when infested is on a target that can’t be cc’d, ss loses a ton of value compared to other traits. It’s still the best trait for almost every situation, but you can’t just act like the damage from your garrotes will matter all of the time

[spiral snow]

@marble hemlock no affixes are truly difficult, just annoying, very annoying and also speed hindering on a huge scale

[long hill]

@spiral snow tyrannical

[topaz notch]

did they buff hp pool on infested worms btw? it feels like it but i can be wrong

[spiral snow]

@winter moss just some kamikaze fetish probably in blizzard HQ

[winter moss]

well you can say every affix is a healer affix to some point

[calm grail]

I do

Ans my healers hate me.

And*

[spiral snow]

@long hill tyrannical makes boss fights endurance fights LUL "one eternity later" - oh the boss is finally dead, pheww

[calm grail]

I think I prefer Tyrannical over fort.

[marble hemlock]

im not aware of any pull we do where we purposefully play a non-ccable or non-skippable infested mob with the rest of the pack. except shrine and waycrest minibosses, which is why i play sub in those

[long hill]

@spiral snow third boss of sethraliss, its not just long

[winter moss]

1minute boss fights on fortified make them boring tho

[spiral snow]

@long hill let's not talk about that ... I'll refrain from calling him names, but, yeah, no, just no. That fight is the death of pugs, the reaper of hopes and dreams.

[marble hemlock]

while you got a point about SS being not nearly as optimal in such a situation, its maybe 1 or 2 pulls out of dozens, and SS still retains its value on all the other ones

[blissful saddle]

Almost every affix can be mitigated by your game play. Letting the responsibility solely fall on a heal or dps or tank is dumb. Time to make a change! Make team work great again you gucking nihilists

[winter moss]

whoa

[ruby idol]

???

[calm grail]

Woah there pons

[topaz notch]

@long hill that boss made me roll from healer to dps ^^

[blissful saddle]

:3

[calm grail]

Settle downnnn

[winter moss]

slow down there pal

[long hill]

@topaz notch ahaha

[blissful saddle]

O

[calm grail]

I was being facetious.

[blissful saddle]

No

[spiral snow]

@blissful saddle or make affixes not hinder speedruns but offer engaging mechanics to play around

[blissful saddle]

I will not slow down

No I cant hold back

[long hill]

HOLD THE DOOR

[winter moss]

the go full ham

[calm grail]

Pons stop telling.

Yelling*

[blissful saddle]

Rawr!!!

[spiral snow]

right now almost all affixes are just "there goes 3 minutes from your time because we wanted to haHAA"

[ionic charm]

@marble hemlock King’s rest every week. Atal’dazar depending on the week and whether you have a priest. Occasionally freehold, siege, etc. and the point isn’t that ss is bad, it’s that you can’t discount all of the other traits and not to the same to the one you like. There are a few traits at 370 that should be taken over ss, it’s not 100% ss

[marble hemlock]

i just dont want to enter a dungeon, plan the route, and have to say "okay, usually we pull this, but because its infest pattern #2 now we cant do that, so we have to play differently. oh and usually we pull this, but because we would get way too many bolster stacks/explosives we cant do that either"

it just doesnt feel nice to have rocks thrown in your way at every turn

and the next week those rocks arent there

[spiral snow]

@marble hemlock "diversity" "new and engaging gameplay" "different environment" haHAA I'm M+ designer btw haHAA me smart me orc haHAA

[winter moss]

shut up peon

go back to work

[spiral snow]

"let's change this mob from non infested to infested. DAMN WE ARE SO SMART AND GENIUS, PPL WILL LOVE THIS NEW ERA OF WARCRAFT POG" haHAA

[winter moss]

but would you play m+ with the same affixes over and over agaibn

just switching from fortified to tyrannical

[ruby idol]

Yup

[marble hemlock]

@ionic charm kings rest only has infested minibosses in one of three infest patterns. atal doesnt have any non-ccable infested mobs that you cant play around by ccing the non-infested ones, and doing multi-infest pulls. theres no non-ccable infested mobs in freehold except for crushers, which is why you skip all of them except for one. siege is awful 1 out of 3 weeks, but then you just play sub and its a nobrainer all of a sudden

[spiral snow]

no but I wouldn't just switch a mob from non infested to infested just to piss ppl off

[marble hemlock]

theres always ways to play around those situations you mention, and none of them make me say "ss isnt as good because of it"

[ruby idol]

Affixes arent enjoyable, scaling dungeons are

[winter moss]

for me affixes are enjoyable

[spiral snow]

for you

[marble hemlock]

while ss isnt good in those situations, you just avoid those entirely

[spiral snow]

but we aren't you

[candid mica]

I agree dad

[calm grail]

Volcanic is enjoyable. That's it.

[winter moss]

but im not you either

[spiral snow]

but more ppl want them changed

[ionic charm]

@marble hemlock lol, you’re moving the goalposts so much it’s not even the same conversation

[spiral snow]

so us > you

[marble hemlock]

im not entirely sure how much i like having to rethink pulls every week though

[winter moss]

ok

[sturdy python]

That's quite an assumption

[winter moss]

affixes are not enjoyable

[sturdy python]

Where are these numbers that more people want no affixes

[spiral snow]

tawney don't join the discussion u didn't even read what we said

pls

[sturdy python]

I did read

[marble hemlock]

@ionic charm youre saying "ss loses value when you have pulls where you have 1 infested mob with multiple non-infested ones", my response is "we dont do pulls like that, we always pull in a way where i can get full value out of SS"

[calm grail]

Seliathan is like the... 2nd best? (Correct me) m+ Rogue in the world. Pretty sure you can take what he's saying with some confidence.

[marble hemlock]

how is that moving goalposts?

[spiral snow]

then we never said we wanted no affixes

we wanted them changed to be more engaging and not just like seli said "rocks thrown in front of u, then next week they are gone"

[winter moss]

thought seliathan is dad/bae/best rogue world?

[ruby idol]

I would guess that players that do maybe a few m+ a week enjoy affixes and players that slam heavy dont

[sturdy python]

You didn't, others agreeing with you did is all

[calm grail]

Yeah, I'm a fanboy. Fuck me. If he doesn't know what he's doing idk who to trust lol.

[ruby idol]

As a general view of the different perspectives. But again it's a guess

[marble hemlock]

of course SS isnt as good when you waste 2 out of 3 garrotes because that damage just gets healed up. but theres no specific pull that i can recall where we wouldnt be able to play around that

[spiral snow]

@calm grail I take opinions of pro players over anyone all the time. Why? Because it's always better, and that's a fact. Especially Seli who has ages of experience

[winter moss]

i think some affixes have absolutly nothing to do with fun

they just make you mad

[sturdy python]

What seliathan said is quite constructive. Saying us>you is not

No doubt some affixes are more frustrating than engaging

[marble hemlock]

and even if there were, it wouldnt change the fact that there will be dozens more pulls where you can get full value out of SS, which leads to me saying that SS, at same ilvl or even higher ilvl differences, is just straightup better dps-wise than any other trait

[calm grail]

On infested we always CC the infested add so I can use my SS and when we can I SS it and burst the fuck out of it with SS GC and exsanguinate.

Either way it works well.

[spiral snow]

@sturdy python what I was saying is that if some random guy likes the affixes that doesn't mean that they are tuned well.

[ionic charm]

@marble hemlock you start by saying ss is the best in every situation. After several situations have been pointed out, you ignore those by simply stating “don’t play assassination” or not to run that key. Both of which are due to the fact that ss is garbage in those situations. I know at least blightborne is better than ss with just a 15 ilvl upgrade, not even wanting to hear the traits on a 30 ilvl upgrade is just silly

[winter moss]

is there a week where shrine isnt hard?

[spiral snow]

hmm

[marble hemlock]

why would i specifically pick a situation where SS is bad in, and base my assumptions around that situation, when i can avoid that situation entirely?

[ionic charm]

Again, the point is not that ss is bad, which you keep think I am trying to say, it’s that SS does not gain full value in every situation, like you said the opposite

[spiral snow]

teeming/volcanic makes anything easy tbh

[marble hemlock]

obviously SS is not the end all be all

[ruby idol]

We cant gear swap so what seli is saying about ss is correct

[winter moss]

yeah ok that makes it ez

[ionic charm]

So every sin player that comes in here asking about the difference between a 340 and 370 is assumed to play sub in situations where the trait they are asking about is bad? And they know this how?

[errant mauve]

i like having 1 SS atleast in all situations for the CP boost at start

[winter moss]

i play 1SS 1DD 1archive in raid tbh

[marble hemlock]

im picking the best conditions to compare traits, you purposefully pick conditions where SS is not as good to compare it to other traits

[errant mauve]

i have a sharpened blades 385 im super poopy about

[ionic charm]

You said it was the best in every situation no matter the 30 ilvls. Not even considering another trait. That is not the correct answer to give someone

[marble hemlock]

i assume that people play in a way that they avoid situations like the ones you describe, because it is possible to do so

it is when that question gets asked 300 times a day and you dont want to go into a 30minute indepth discussion as to its merits in certain situations

[long hill]

Oh god you are flaming because of me, stop this

[spiral snow]

TL;DR you pick SS due to raw dps increase and CP generation + fluidity. You can't gearswap in M+ so SS will outweight any trait because it's rarely less efficient than anything else available.

[ionic charm]

Flaming is different from refuting an incorrect answer

[marble hemlock]

people who realize that there are situations where certain other traits, like scent, might pull ahead of SS dont have to ask the question in the first place

[strange python]

ok, so i have a 385 dagger in the back piece. Do sims over value it or go to single target trait still?

[winter moss]

incorrect from what view tho?!

[marble hemlock]

which is why my approach to answering people who do ask it is indeed to just say "ss is best"

[spiral snow]

@strange python what other traits do you have and the ilvl of them please

[errant mauve]

DD is higher than dagger in the back i think

[winter moss]

herodamage can help otherwise

[desert vault]

I'm going to give DiTB a try this week in raid, just hope the masses on Fetid are considered "back" from all sides 😛

[long hill]

@ionic charm @marble hemlock i tried the 2 piece and in overall and with my playstyle ss do more damage even if its 30 itlvl lower

[strange python]

@desert vault Remember DiTB loses value if u dont attack the mob from the back all the time

[desert vault]

I know, but the big add on Feitd ... does it really have a "back"? 😛

[marble hemlock]

well, as i said, you will almost always get the full value out of SS. you will rarely play a perfect aoe rotation on every pull for the entire dungeon, at which point they already lose some value when you compare them in their "ideal" state

[desert vault]

I mean it is a circle

[calm grail]

Yeah it's the back side.

[desert vault]

Being in front of Fetid is just a bad idea, so I should be good there

[ionic charm]

Lol. This isn’t even about scent specifically. There are multiple traits that beat 340 ss straight up when they are 370. Feel free to not believe, and feel free to keep giving people incorrect blanket answers.

[marble hemlock]

which ones would those be, in your opinion?

[long hill]

@ionic charm i am speaking of ss>tradewinds just that

[strange python]

@spiral snow 385 Dagger/Twist on head. 370 SoB shoulder. 370 SS or 370 Archive chest.

[ionic charm]

Blightborne, rezans, archive are the 3 that beat it outright. Depends on keys, dd, scent.

[marble hemlock]

what do you mean by "beating it outright"?

[desert vault]

@strange python I have the same head with dagger/twist. I was running twist to be safe, but I think for most fights in raid DiTB /should/ be ok

[strange python]

I'd personally go with twist

[desert vault]

I went with twist for general use, cause it was ok for M+ on tyran

[marble hemlock]

how do you even compare the impact a trait like blightborne has, which is just a stat-increase, to something like SS which is a raw-damage increase

[ionic charm]

In the ideal situation for ss, they still lose. 385 blightborne beats out 370 ss at same ilvl for 20-40 second 3-6target sims even with vanish (without raid buffs). So at a 30 ilvl difference, it’s even bigger. @marble hemlock

[marble hemlock]

do you actually know how much of your damage is made up of that proc-based stat increase, so you can make an apt comparison and come to the conclusion you mentioned?

[winter moss]

can i take a guess? <5%

[marble hemlock]

you realise the multitarget apl is completely scuffed and until recently didnt even use triple garrote in the opener/after vanish?

it still doesnt use CT until 15sec into the pull, whereas we use it 4seconds in

[ionic charm]

In every sim I ran, the apl had 6 stealth garrotes

[spice surge]

"until recently"

[long hill]

@spice surge

[ionic charm]

Ok... and that changes the results of a current sim how?

[marble hemlock]

mind linking one of those comparisons?

id love to have a look at it

[ionic charm]

Would love to when I get home from work

I’ll pm you

[calm grail]

You can pull raidbots links on mobile

My dude

[ionic charm]

Yes and I have the links readily available?

[calm grail]

Raidbots saves sims

[ionic charm]

I didn’t run the sims on my phone

[marble hemlock]

the reason i am very adamant about the trait recommendation i give (and frankly, every other top10 rogue gives the same one) is because we tested extensively and came to that result. the sim, while we are greatful for its existence, is very unreliable when it comes to trinket/trait recommendations due to its limitations

[calm grail]

Go to raidbots.com

And look at your sim history

[ionic charm]

What sim history?

[winter moss]

[marble hemlock]

feel free to hit me up with one of those comparisons

when youre home

[spice surge]

Because nobody really cares and maintains the multitarget sims, as ST is typically the focus for sims

[ruby idol]

i havent simmed for m+ in like a month 😃

[errant mauve]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/topgear

[calm grail]

Right side of the page, click the drop-down menu.

[errant mauve]

can you guys see my gear?

[spice surge]

I dont even think the 6 target 40 sec sims are a good situation to sim

[marble hemlock]

its not that people dont care, its because its hard to write a proper APL for a setting where your priorities are constantly changing and shifting based on the situation

[winter moss]

@errant mauve no

[marble hemlock]

hell, my opener changes depending on whether my first 3 garrote targets got DP applications from autoattacks or not

[winter moss]

pastebin link with your simc output

[long hill]

A question: is it worth to play with kingrest trinket+ galecaller?

[spice surge]

I meant more as take care of it, but yeah

[marble hemlock]

which is why i only use sims for statweights in aoe (6t 40s) and do any other comparison by just running dungeons with that trait/trinekt setup

[calm grail]

That's why sometimes logic has to be paired with sims. I know we always preach sim sim sim but sometimes you gotta check actual results too.

[spice surge]

Not really unless you have no other trinkets

Two on-use trinkets incur a 30s CD on eachother

[long hill]

Kk better sim it so

Does sim count the cd?

[spice surge]

Yes, i dont know how it prioritizes the usage though, which one it uses first

[winter moss]

fathoms siming higher than 370 spyglass, but when you have bad procs it will be less output

[marble hemlock]

basically what niralath said. sims are a nice way for very static situations, because they are able to model that specific situation fairly accurately. m+ is everything but static, which makes recommendations based on someones modeling of that specific fight-environment very unreliable, at best, and flatout wrong at worst

just look at bloodmallet aoe sims if you want to see why blindly trusting sims isnt always a good thing

[long hill]

Can u give me a setup for sim raid situation? Like for sim mythic fetid

[strange python]

Compared 15ilvl higher blightborne to 340SS on 6t 40 seconds, 🤔 https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/r6G5iWTVaetPdGe3pe6gdC

[marble hemlock]

which is why i, and every other person who gets asked dozens of times a day about trait recommendations, defaults to SS, because you cant go wrong with SS. you might go slightly better with something else, but that depends on multiple other factors. ss doesnt. its a set and forget trait for most

[spice surge]

A ST sim is way closer to fetid than 6t 40s is to m+

Neither of them are 100% accurate

[marble hemlock]

i use 6t40sec because the damage distribution it spits out is fairly close to the one i actually get in a live-environment

so i think i can trust the statweights its giving me

[calm grail]

I would like to think there are three stages of DPS enlightenment. Icy Veins - Raidbots and taking sims as gospel - Raidbots paired with logic and understanding of how things work mechanically and trying to form a conclusion based on research and evidence (sims/m+ runs)

[marble hemlock]

but im not gonna trust trinket or trait evaluations

the problem is that while sims might give you an indication of what trait might be best or worst, in a setting like m+ its almost impossible to check up on the actual results

you can compare rezans to dagger in the back

but comparing SS to blightborne? you just cant do that based on the numbers you get after a full run

[strange python]

Blighborne is also rng procs

SS isn't

😐

[harsh glacier]

385 SS azerite helm from chest, feelsgoodman

[calm grail]

Talk like that is how you get shanked around here Assura

[long hill]

Is it worth to drop a 385 double dose for a 360 SS for get a x2 of it? (mythic+ ofc)

[strange python]

yuh

[marble hemlock]

unless you really need the ST damage increase, for example when you run tyrannical temple, ss will always provide better overall dps swalker

[harsh glacier]

is 385 SS > 370 DD?

for raiding

brb Ill just sim it

[marble hemlock]

😀

[winter moss]

problems solving 101: question and answer in one post

[harsh glacier]

I feel SS is better in Uldir than just 1 target patchwerk too though

[marble hemlock]

it is

i played multiple SS traits for fetid progression

[harsh glacier]

like 6/8 are pretty heavily multi target?

[long hill]

For a raid simulation i have to put patchwerk or light mov?

[marble hemlock]

cause i was on big add and used vanish on add 1+3, so SS had big value there

[winter moss]

did you use vendetta on add#2?

[marble hemlock]

yeah

[winter moss]

phew

[marble hemlock]

vendetta on pull, vanish add1, vendetta add2, vanish add3, vendetta for boss-burn at the end

[winter moss]

i thought i was dumb for progressing it like this

[harsh glacier]

I think Im gonna be benched for our next fetid kill 😦 I didn't perform that well this week on it

[marble hemlock]

its a shitty melee fight

[harsh glacier]

I was on little adds

[winter moss]

assura dont be sorry. be better

[harsh glacier]

nearly lowest on damage for all adds

felt bad

[marble hemlock]

yeah, small adds suck

hm

i was doing fine with assa on small ones

better than our sub

[harsh glacier]

I mean our add was dying

[marble hemlock]

but you definitely wanna play TB for the small adds

[harsh glacier]

my add wasnt why we were wiping, but just overall I was getting outperformed by the other melee

[marble hemlock]

similar to vectis

[harsh glacier]

I think my add may have had our better dps on it too so it was dying before bleeds/poisons really did anything

[ionic charm]

If you’re sin on little add it’s not like you can do much

[harsh glacier]

yeah guess we'll see

[winter moss]

i was assigned to the big add

[marble hemlock]

thats from our kill this week

[harsh glacier]

we were wiping cause we were melee heavy though, so I feel bad for it haha

[marble hemlock]

so assa definitely isnt bad

[winter moss]

and played exsang

made sense to me, but me on top aswell

[marble hemlock]

yup, exsang if youre on big add, TB if youre on smol

ideally they put you on big add though, since you cant really help out on the big one after you killed your smol one

[harsh glacier]

yeah I was on big add originally, but then we were having trouble getting it down so they shifted me for a higher dps

[winter moss]

you absolutly have nothing left

[harsh glacier]

though honestly the dps on big add wasnt the issue

[winter moss]

but fetid myth is so cancer as sub

[harsh glacier]

the little adds werent dying so people werent switching to big add in time

and I was outdpsing the warrior by a lot on the big add, so hopefully they take that into account

[marble hemlock]

well, having better dps on the small ones means people can switch to the big one earlier

how many melee have you been running though? thats usually one of the bigger issues

[desert vault]

Hmm hmm think MA burst on Fetid mythic adds is still ok enough to give up SS? I'm 350 DPS better with MA and no SS ... I've been holding my CDs for first big add as well

[marble hemlock]

cause i feel doing fetid with more than 5 melee is absolutely counter-productive

[harsh glacier]

yeah we had 7

[marble hemlock]

4 actually feels nice

[harsh glacier]

and it was pointless

[marble hemlock]

5 is pushing it

[harsh glacier]

raid was called early

[desert vault]

oh god, 7? death 😦

yeah

[harsh glacier]

just cause the comp was messed

[marble hemlock]

with 6 we literally ran out of space aroudn the boss/adds

and had to spread debuffs on purpose just to meet the dps requirements

[ionic charm]

7 isn’t doable really. The difference between 5 and 6 is night and day even

[harsh glacier]

pretty bad design if you ask me

[marble hemlock]

yeah

[harsh glacier]

fights shouldnt exclude classes

[marble hemlock]

but its the same for the other bosses too, so 🤷

[winter moss]

@marble hemlock your dh was on fiya yo

[marble hemlock]

mythrax isnt fun with more than 4 melee

especially when you have all the melee warlocks and mages and healers taking up your space

[harsh glacier]

yeah I anticipate being brought in for our zul kill and then benched forever

[winter moss]

we are playing it with 5

[marble hemlock]

whenever a ranged dps or healer is stacking on me 2sec before orb on mythrax

[harsh glacier]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/kmgpncmgRUxXa6XAsy6k1Z

[marble hemlock]

i just wanna die

[harsh glacier]

so close to 17k club 😦

[simple flax]

is it worth going from a 355 to 370 chest piece if I lose archive of the titans

[ionic charm]

I thought onr founded the 18k club already

[harsh glacier]

probly 1 mother dagger would get me there

yeah I think 18k is definitely a thing now

[winter moss]

traits on 370 chest?

[ionic charm]

Mine is 17.9 so itll be there today after array stacks

[simple flax]

poisoned wire and filthy transfusion

aka literal garbage

[winter moss]

hek

prob sim but i guess not

[marble hemlock]

still simming for like 17.4k or so because i have shitty traits for singletarget 😦

[winter moss]

sim for 17.8k on patchwerk

[marble hemlock]

1scent 1archive 1ss are highest simming traits for st for me ><

[simple flax]

boy azerite gear is such a fun mechanic

[desert vault]

DiTB, DD, and Archive is best for me right now ...

rather confused on whether or not giving up SS/Subt on mythic Fetid prog is worth it ...

I guess MA burst is still pretty strong

[ionic charm]

The first stack of traits is worth so much more than subsequent ones, having different traits is bad.

If you’re on big add you want Fuge for fetid

[marble hemlock]

hopefully next week i bonusroll vectis helmet

[desert vault]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/sbnyktQYxU1VBzRbAiML12

[marble hemlock]

had to trade away the ones i got through PL twice now to people with 370 helmets

😦

[desert vault]

Subt/SS is 200+ DPS loss ...

over MA/TB

[winter moss]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/2899PhDDN66LeRDSv8aQzH i could do it

but i dont want to

[ionic charm]

You can run fuge without ss

[winter moss]

just wanted to know maximal output

i run fuge

[desert vault]

yeah I know subt with no SS is basically same output for my sim

[winter moss]

got 385 ss chest

and again thanks to everyone for your input

[long hill]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/iiyN6PjetBAtFUYggbuABe what should i change for sim better (i think shoulder but idk)

[desert vault]

its really all about getting 385 Vectis 😃

[errant mauve]

25.5% crit 19%haste 27% mastery decent secondary stats?

[winter moss]

id murder for 25 crit

[simple flax]

how terrible is this for my ilvl https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/sPDyAUbGSEw7wi2E8rLhAC

[winter moss]

not at all

[marble hemlock]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/gtPjWvCTa7jCQUCFr62ivi

feelsbadman

[simple flax]

kk good to hear, have a good bit of versatility I'm trying to offload

[spice surge]

You're also simming without reorigination array @simple flax

[winter moss]

DAT DAGGERS THO

im jelly

[marble hemlock]

meh

i need a better OH for st

so i can put quick nav on it

[gloomy ginkgo]

Should I go blightborne or DD? Is there a significant difference in ST?

[desert vault]

DD for ST

[marble hemlock]

sim it

[winter moss]

[desert vault]

and yeah, that

[balmy perch]

Ho do you quick sim multiple targets? I tried changing it to 4 bosses but that cant be right.

[errant mauve]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/fifxnxoWRHXYYkAzJyWNRj

[quiet valve]

are you guys simming with pots/flasks on?

[marble hemlock]

thats how you do it @balmy perch

[balmy perch]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/iyYqG6t4mA1uEy4phgAoTJ

[winter moss]

will you stream tonight seliathan

[fresh ginkgo]

im conflicted

got dagger chest last week

now i got ss chest

this week

[winter moss]

same ilvl?

[long hill]

@marble hemlock for sim stat weight should i enable raid buff??

[fresh ginkgo]

385 y ea

[winter moss]

well

[marble hemlock]

you mean for m+ statweights?

[winter moss]

but id rather go with ss chest

[marble hemlock]

i do 6t, 40sec, patchwerk, no bloodlust sim for statweights for m+

[winter moss]

@fresh ginkgo

[marble hemlock]

check the damage distribution of that sim, if it aligns decently well with the one you get on trash in a dungeon like motherlode or freehold, you can take those statweights to be somewhat accurate

[winter moss]

any tips on mythic ghuun?

[marble hemlock]

what orb-grp are you in?

[winter moss]

4

[marble hemlock]

4+9 im guessing?

[fresh ginkgo]

hmm yea def in m+ dunno how much so in raids

[winter moss]

planned so

[fresh ginkgo]

we will see

[marble hemlock]

for first orb run to orb when its ~5sec left on first beam with sprint, 10sec left when you dont have sprint

[winter moss]

never made it there so far

[marble hemlock]

try to soak first boil, so you can damage 1st small add immediately after

[austere scarab]

is poisoned wire ass?

[marble hemlock]

on 2nd bloodfeast you can help out with boils, since y oure one of the few people who will reset stacks with 3rd feast anyway

[velvet kernel]

should i have more then 9% haster for m+?

[marble hemlock]

after 3rd feast, run to orb immediately. y ou might have to afk there for 15sec, but thats better than getting 1 more stack, cause you wont be able to reset with 4th feast

keep vendetta/exsang/vanish for first chattering horror

dps isnt really an issue in p2

[winter moss]

and p3 is a simple burn phase

[marble hemlock]

"simple"

but yeah

pop all CDs when it starts

keep cloak

[winter moss]

if everyone manges to stay alive the boss is pretty much ead

[marble hemlock]

for when boilsoak+shrooms happen at the same time

[winter moss]

naowhs words

[marble hemlock]

and play safe

pop crimson vial on CD

feint corruption wave damage

staying alive > dishing out the most dps

[winter moss]

yeha

[marble hemlock]

youll usually wipe to people standing in shrooms, or when boilsoaks are fucked up

and people get MCed

cant do anything about the first, you should always try to help out with the second

[winter moss]

the closest 2 people get to soak regardless of distance?

[marble hemlock]

as assa you dont lose that much dps when youre not sticking on the boss for 5secs

[winter moss]

right?

[marble hemlock]

yeah

if the 2 closest people are 40yards away or 4yards, doesnt matter

as long as they are closest

[winter moss]

well thanks alot!

[marble hemlock]

we had 100k gold fee for people who died to mushrooms or got feared

[winter moss]

motivating xd

[marble hemlock]

while it made people deal less dps/hps cause they were playing ultra safe on those

thats definitely preferable

[winter moss]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/character/eu/antonidas/nylerah

[marble hemlock]

as long as your healers are pulling their weight, your raid goes into that phase with almost no stacks, and people dont mess up mechanics, the boss dies

[winter moss]

you can see by my declining logs that i play safe <.<

[marble hemlock]

my ghuun logs are shit

[grim wolf]

pfft who plays safe

[marble hemlock]

being in grp 4/9 isnt too great for dps, since youre missing out on 1 add

[grim wolf]

[marble hemlock]

as long as youre pulling like 14k dps in p3, youre doing all youre supposed to

[winter moss]

well see

[marble hemlock]

should be no problem with your gear

[winter moss]

have to get me 7/8 rekill first

[marble hemlock]

gutripper helps 😃

[shell night]

Got a +10 done for the first time on my rogue alt and got a 380 Mydas Touch (turns your hand to gold, but not your parses) FeelsBadMan

[winter moss]

so on vectis tb on the add all the time?

first add gets shredded from our destro anyway

defo need to perform better on this fight

[marble hemlock]

yeah

[hybrid chasm]

dunno why you wouldnt use it on the add

[marble hemlock]

i pop vendetta+tb on boss on pull with lust

and then keep TB for add 2/3/4

keeping vanish for add 3 or 4 aswell

[simple flax]

how many reorigination array stacks should i sim with

smart is ending the fight with 2

[spice surge]

as many as you have

[desert vault]

Holy crap Subt with no SS feels SO bad 😦

ewww

[dense quest]

Id rather play with MA with 0 ss

[spice surge]

Very likely that MA is better then

[dense quest]

its like .2% diff

for me at least

[desert vault]

yeah they sim almost identical, but Subt feels terrible vanish > gar and sad 1 CP 😦

[winter moss]

depends on how good you can utilize MA in afight

[strange python]

Hey,i got 2 SS pieces for m+ . is it worth dropping 370 shoulders with SS for 385 with scent of blood from zul? For m+ ofc

[winter moss]

depends on pulls, genral ss maybe better put on higher ilvls scent will pull ahead regardless

but there may be more reliable sources

[balmy perch]

Where is there a high ilvl ss head?

Is it just a emmisary?

[pulsar goblet]

RNG

[austere scarab]

I've been wondering if I should run just 1 SS in m+ as well.

[spice surge]

Weekly chest

No helm from emissaries

[austere scarab]

My other traits are ST tho.

[spice surge]

Only SS shoulder and chest exist from emissaries

[winter moss]

you can go 2SS aswell

[balmy perch]

I have done well so far. My raid is 2 dd 1 archove 370s. My M+ is 2ss and a random 385 head with dagger in the back

[austere scarab]

385 Rezan's chest, 385 Sharpened Blades / Meticulous Scheming, 370 SS shoulder

For raids I was going to run the 385s + 370 Archive shoulder.

[faint harness]

blightborne infusion, archive, SS is my best ST setup with exsang

for some reason blightborne beats 385 DD

in my sims

[austere scarab]

I'm playing TB. I haven't really run Exsang sims.

[spice surge]

@balmy perch https://azerite.info/class/rogue is good for seeing where traits appear

Press the traits and it shows every item with it

[balmy perch]

Now that i have 2ss for M+ i need to sim exsang again

[winter moss]

very good link

tyvm eleem

[austere scarab]

Does Exsang effect azerite bleeds like Rezan's?

[winter moss]

nope

[desert vault]

there is a regular emissary 370 head with DD right?

[balmy perch]

I wish exsang was aoe but that would be OP as shit

[tropic rover]

For raids, do you want to stack archive of the titans or just use one for the RA stacks?

[desert vault]

Just one typically

[winter moss]

if you have no better traits you can go as more than one

holup

ye

still

[desert vault]

War Supply Chest - that is the 370 stuff from daily WQ cache right?

[strange python]

@desert vault The Zuldazar emmisary has a chance to give you Gonk Outrunner Mask

For anyone still unsure how the emmisarys work

https://www.wowhead.com/item=163857/azerite-armor-cache#comments

[scenic jetty]

Which weapon enchants for sin rogue? One on each weapon right?

[winter moss]

your highest secondary stat on main hand

[quiet valve]

It is one on each wep

[winter moss]

second highst on off hand

[quiet valve]

usually between quick, masterful or deadly

as said above

[winter moss]

well it does not really matter if offhand or main hand uptime is almost the same

[strange python]

So my sub spec is simming than my sin spec now, anyone with some good +10 or higher experience who has played one or both have an opinion on whether i ought to switch from sin to sub?

You talking m+

yee

Assa for this week

Its not about what sims best, its about priorities

ik hence why i came here

Teeming? Great, go sub when playing Waycrest, ML? I dunno

[balmy perch]

I got gonks last night. Was super stoked

[strange python]

gz

Cant get that freaking helm-..-

[balmy perch]

Actually nvm i got shoulders

I need to practice more on sub. I have saved basically all my 370 azerite gear so i am sure i have some good ones for it.

[tropic shadow]

I got sharpened blades chest reeeee

[ionic charm]

It’s not that bad, if I can parse top 20s using it, you can too

[austere scarab]

Meticulous Scheming doesn't have single target Bloodmallet data

is it bad?

[strange python]

Herodamage

[tropic shadow]

@ionic charm yeah I know, I just prefer SS play style more

[ionic charm]

I did too, but once I bit the bullet and accepted my burst wasn’t going to be as crazy as it was before, I ended up being much happier with the stronger consistent damage.

It’s blizzard’s fault for letting me taste 3xSS in week 3

[tropic shadow]

I’m waiting for the day to run 3 SS in a key

[strange python]

I think I read somewhere (here or reddit) that Double Dose sims lower damage than it actually does - is that right?

[dense quest]

problem is who would you believe if someone else tells you it's right or wrong

[ionic charm]

You can sim it for yourself, it seems to be different for everyone. I currently have 385 DD and 385 Blightborne shoulders, and the blightborne wins out

[strange python]

I just simmed it but 1 SS/Sub is doing only 100dps less than 2 DD/Archive combo

thought DD was BIS right now

[ionic charm]

Did you run dd with MA TB?

[strange python]

yeah

[faint harness]

DD is overrated 🤔

[strange python]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/7sLEtQcqTGeBNgz7U2WwYE

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/6CHrv2rJrFNPGna3unt78r

150dps better

[velvet kernel]

for 150 dps would rather play SS

[strange python]

that doesn't seem like much

yeah

[desert vault]

DD is quite a bit better for me

[strange python]

And you have a 385 rezans on ur SS build

What do u expect

[spice surge]

You dropped 15 ilvl on one of your items and gained 150 dps

[strange python]

that's RNG, I can't do much about upgrading azerite pieces

You can't really compare those 2 builds

[fleet whale]

I got Harlan's dice from the chest this morning... so I'm happy

[ionic charm]

Michee is right, you need to sim dd chest, rezans shoulders, archive helm. That’s likely your BiS

Well, best combination I mean

[spice surge]

Also using agility gem and 27 enchants on your rings 🤔

[fleet whale]

some people don't have the money

[desert vault]

Ugh forgot if I switch to MA I am going need a redo on all that stuff 😐

[ionic charm]

Having a high level gcb is great because you can’t run MA 😄

[spice surge]

????

Gcb is the best trinket with MA

[desert vault]

I have a 395 GCB and MA sims same as Subt 😐

[spice surge]

It has nothing to do with your talents, its just the best

[ionic charm]

Fathoms/dice ma simmed 100 dps ahead. Gcb/dice fuge sims 100 ahead

[desert vault]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/mgjt9Tot3TAFewojJeZfFk

My dice is trash though, only 360 so of course 395 GCB wins

I just don't like Subt without any SS traits, feels clunky with vanish > gar only giving the 1 CP

[strange python]

Getting into Fetid progression and going Sin for the fight, what is the go to trait stacking and spec boys?

[ionic charm]

Big add or small?

[strange python]

small

[desert vault]

big add = big burst

[spice surge]

@fleet whale It doesnt take very much effort to scramble together 3k gold for your ring enchants though, especially since some of that gold is gained through not buying an expensive agi gem that doesnt do more than the haste ones

[desert vault]

small = w/e really 😃

but I've been on big add for progression

[ionic charm]

@strange python MA TB if you can run it, fuge won’t be worth in small

Your damage will be pretty shit regardless

Don’t expect a decent parse on small add

[desert vault]

my opener is going to be crap with MA/TB and saving everything for big add, but oh well

[strange python]

Shopuld i push to be on big add staying sin, saving shit as sub for extreme burst or stay outlaw?

[ionic charm]

Save for big add? If you use CDs on pull you have them for 2nd big add and again for boss

[strange python]

@ionic charm https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/4yNgum8Jn4Po8u27haGLF3
This is what I got by using those combos you suggested

[desert vault]

My group is trying to save CDs for first and third big add I guess

[ionic charm]

Weird

Idk why they would do that

[desert vault]

we were struggling to get the first one done, close, but it was two locks, myself and a DK on it

[ionic charm]

@strange python huh, I’ve got nothing for you. DD is even more of a mystery now

[desert vault]

we were also running six melee, tonight should be down to four melee

[ionic charm]

If you’re struggling on big add, generally it’s small groups fault

[strange python]

If im Sin, go Exsang or stick with TB?

[dense quest]

that fight is just getting to the add asap to have more uptime on it

[ionic charm]

On small add TB, exsang will only be halfway through

[desert vault]

I thought it would be better to use CDs on pull, second big, then boss as well since we are using lust on third so lust+CDs seemed a bit overkill

[dense quest]

that means if one person doesnt get there right away the add doesnt die accordingly

[ionic charm]

@desert vault that is the right way to use CDs.

On pull, 2 min CDs. 1st egg, 3 min CDs. 2nd egg, 2 min CDs. 3rd egg, lust, 4th egg, skip and burn

[strange python]

thats what weve been doing as well fwiw

[desert vault]

yeah, I dunno we were doing it a bit different ... I guess it hasn't really mattered much until we get the right comp, was more getting comfortable with the fight for now

[strange python]

Being melee on Fetid is rough

[ionic charm]

Yeah so I would bet that you would get more benefit from MA TB, but you can honestly play whatever you want to give you the most boss damage.

Since your job on small adds is kind of harder to focus on

[desert vault]

@ionic charm When are you using second pot then? 1st egg to help with that?

[strange python]

2nd pots on 2nd add for us

[ionic charm]

@desert vault supposed to be 2nd egg, but I’m a mongo so I saved for 3rd CDs on boss

[desert vault]

what DPS did you have start on big egg? Locks, rogue and DK/DH?

[austere scarab]

We're doing 3x aff, DH and probably our misfit enhance. lel

[ionic charm]

2 sin rogues, 1 aff lock, 1 fdk. Ideally we would have had DH fdk and 1 rogue, but we had lots of melee so sacrifices had to me made

By the Dh of course, his parses were worse 😛

[desert vault]

Ok, yeah I think MA/TB might be rough for big egg without using any CDs on it ... my DPS would trash

Prolly have to give up some sim DPS and just do subt/exsang?

[ionic charm]

I ended up ranking 20th at the time (23rd now) among all rogues using Tb/fuge without ss, and a trait of sharpened blades. For the most part you can treat it like a single target fight, although if you’re on big add I can’t see any reason to run Ma

2 target cleave without CDs is strong enough

If you’re on small add, fuge will hurt, the thing isn’t living 23 seconds

[desert vault]

right

I was just putting out garbage numbers on the target dummy earlier with Subt/TB and no SS, so was going to stick with MA/TB, but maybe not

I need to be sure and use DiTB over Twist for Fetid, cause that should help too since DiTB should be easy to keep going properly on that fight

[ionic charm]

I would take whatever sims the highest in a single target situation out of the subterfuge options. Unless you find your guild wiping on 2nd egg consistently, the damage ss brings will mostly be for show

[desert vault]

And not worry about exsang really?

i'll have to see what I was doing wrong, cause on target dummy as MA/TB I was rarely dropping below 12k, swapping to Subt I was struggling to keep up 10k

[ionic charm]

That’s really weird, since the difference between the traits is only opener/vanish. If you really feel more comfortable playing MA, whatever will help you do more damage is the answer. It’s just that MA’s benefit doesn’t increase much with 2 targets like fuge does

Are you vanishing on target dummies and looking at a damage meter in game? Because vanish fucks with that

[desert vault]

oh so you are saying on the big add, when you vanish, to hit it with a garrote, then immediately swapping to boss and putting a garrote on him as well?

[ionic charm]

Since I run Tb/fuge, I have to wait for them to line back up. I make sure fetid has >10s left on his Garrote when adds spawn (vanish still has 3-4 seconds left on cd at this point). I go to big add, apply rupture, then vanish should be up. Garrote big add, garrote fetid, garrote big add. Then continue as normal. That’s what I did, to get maximum fuge uptime on garrotes

[wispy wigeon]

hey guys tried playing assassination for the first time in raid anybody have any feedback / tips https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/WthLkVvgAnDzmXxQ#fight=17&type=damage-done

[desert vault]

I see, I see. I just really need a SS piece, can't find a log with a rogue running MA and GCB 😃

Damn Vectis head makes my life allllllll better. SS, DD, Archive and call it a day

[spice surge]

@wispy wigeon Are you samba or aeva?

[wispy wigeon]

aeva

sorry forgot there was another rogue

[ionic charm]

@desert vault gcb isn’t bad with Ma, just doesn’t use all of the benefits of the haste

[lilac lily]

subterfuge sims the same as MA for me, 0.1% dif

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/cmXi6R7LCV1DVtMXKmZJD6

[ionic charm]

I’m beginning to believe it more has to do with fathoms being good for MA at this point than GCB being bad for it

[faint harness]

My best simming setup is so weird now monkaS

[elder gulch]

has SS been nerf? and is it still the best trait for m+?

[spice surge]

2 months ago, and yes

[faint harness]

Blightborne, Rezans and archive, passive procs much fun