Ss affects 3 mobs tops
#assassination
quiet axle
Yeah and the agi gain from the multi ruptures, it's just my only SS piece
tough whale
So ss sims properly but it loses value based on more targets that are around that ARENT getting ss buffed garrotes
drifting elbow
if u dont pull 6t often, SoB isnt that good as sims say with 6t
quiet axle
Yeah, we normally have larger pulls
Womp, really wanted to be able to try out SS but I'll just stick with the SoB chest
tough whale
Nothing stopping you from trying it
daring iron
Does the sim use vanish to apply ss go every mob in the 6 target scenario?
drifting elbow
u can see it in report
drifting elbow
SS good for 6 pulls?
elder copper
Have they changed "Garrote" recently? It used to do 105% weapon damage, now it when I look in my spellbook it says that it does 15 895 over 6 sec
drifting elbow
so over 1min in trying to kill and kite 6 mobs and SoB buff from all 6 mobs
daring iron
Unless those mobs are all going to live a rupture
drifting elbow
lets see
lone junco
Lol at that tooltip for poisoned wire. No mention of the stacks.
drifting elbow
SS affects 3 at maximum without vanish
lone junco
2cp+ rupture spread for scent isn't hard.
daring iron
2ss one scent sounds ideal
lone junco
If numbers were equal in sim. At least it gives me something to do and The FOK whites start getting big
drifting elbow
how it is worse overall
lone junco
Instance is made of singles 3-5 and 8+
drifting elbow
its shit ton of agi from ruptures on big pulls overall
tough whale
@lone junco first dance also doesnt mention the stacks
lone junco
But we know this.
daring iron
You’re undervaluing ss so much
daring iron
It’s 35% of my damage with two of them
drifting elbow
u r just assuming that SS dmg carries to over 1min with burst dmg alone
lone junco
Without restealth SS goes limp.
noble flume
thanks for the help today guys, just need to farm some better gear and trinks now it seems
daring iron
Maybe for freehold,
No other dungeon has consistent 6 or more target pulls really
Maybe atal
drifting elbow
manor
tough whale
Tol dagor
drifting elbow
^
drifting elbow
what?
tough whale
It's more lol
lone junco
Same conversation for 2months. Afk a week or so. 👋
drifting elbow
did u miss all those mobs there?
daring iron
There’s two pulls like that
tough whale
????
Every trash pull is big
Except for 1 hallway
And even still that hallway chains into a 5 or 6
daring iron
They’re like 3 targets mostly
drifting elbow
thats like careful pulls
tough whale
What's your io lmao
drifting elbow
daring iron
Doubt it
tough whale
Whatever you say
daring iron
Yep lol
drifting elbow
overvaluing SS when one is more than enough for most situations 
tough whale
Cx
daring iron
I guess we can just agree to disagree lol
On fortified on a few specific dungeons sure
Otherwise two ss will pull ahead in every scenario
drifting elbow
sure cuz without fortified, mobs melt pretty fast 
been pointing out that 1min+ big pulls
celest mirage
!wa
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination WA's for BFA:
https://wago.io/HJUbINlV7 (Mizerok's Group)
https://wago.io/E1EB91OtM (Lokkek's Group)
https://wago.io/SyLUNGD4X (Sovv's Group)
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)
wintry stone
Is you're running Master Assassin instead of Subterfuge, do you still open with Garotte from stealth?
drifting elbow
yes?
MA is more focused on vanish rotation than start of pulls
since u have to put dots on targets at start
modest zodiac
looking forward to having blindside viable in some fights
candid jasper
What's the deal with sometimes getting 5 combo points from a FoK and others just 1
candid jasper
oh I get you
median mason
FoK gives me the big sad
gaunt trench
Guys, is there a difference between which enchants (Deadly Navigation/Quick) to put on MH/OH?
rugged trellis
is there any PvP-guide when it comes to assassination rogue in terms of statweight, traits, gear, etc apart from icy-veins that's concidered good?
strange python
@gaunt trench sim it
rugged trellis
alright il'll drop by that room
summer aurora
hi everyone, is there a good reason why gutripper as secondery trait sims so high? bcs if feels like it does nothing for me when checking the procs per boss ?
tacit wedge
Ahoi
I got the chest from Fetid
For a M+ optimization, should I go
1)Archives of Titans
2)Shrouded Suffocation
3)Sim yo ass
summer aurora
@tacit wedge if you dont have any SS i think for M+ then SS would be best for extra bleeds and ironwire upptime on big packs otherwise number 3 😄
tacit wedge
@summer aurora It's my first SS piece ❤
summer aurora
ah ok atleast i think 1 SS should be used for smoother rotation
safe canopy
wait im simming more for master assassin now. I havent played this talent in forever. How should i utilize vanish?
tacit wedge
Well... On CD
safe matrix
Pretty similar to how it was used in legion
nova snow
!guide
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination Guide: http://www.ravenholdt.net/assassination-guide/
plain thistle
!wa
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination WA's for BFA:
https://wago.io/HJUbINlV7 (Mizerok's Group)
https://wago.io/E1EB91OtM (Lokkek's Group)
https://wago.io/SyLUNGD4X (Sovv's Group)
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)
high nova
is exsanguinate better than Toxic Blade for M+? I see speedoflife and other rogues using it
proper zealot
It's nice for burst damage on a priority target, and the Energy regeneration through Venomous Wounds helps multi-DoT'ing on AoE pulls, too.
high nova
Im energy capped like all the time anyways with Toxic Blade and a few dots on trash packs
Im supposed to spam Fan of Knives over Mutilate on 2+ targets right?
pliant orbit
Any tips for cooldowns on mythic fetid?
proper zealot
You spam Fan of Knives on 4+ targets, 5+ if you have two or more Double Dose traits. You use Fan of Knives at 3+ targets only to reapply poisons.
And I meant that Exsanguinate helps with Energy at the beginning of an AoE pull, when you need Energy the most, because you don't have Garrote/Rupture rolling on every target yet. That much should be obvious.
high nova
"Cast Fan of Knives Icon Fan of Knives when 2+ targets are within range to generate Combo Points." Icy Veins guide out of date?
proper zealot
Yeah, that's wrong.
high nova
alright
tropic shadow
Is there a proper way to use sharpened blades? Cast at 30 stack or in toxic blade at 30 stack?
drifting elbow
u just use it before interrupting TB rotation
tropic shadow
okay thanks
solar rose
@high nova Priority target and you get less value from toxic blade in m+ as you're not constantly hitting that target, and generally you run a high mastery build in m+. The energy regen from exsang at the start of a pack, on every pack, is really useful.
high nova
alright, I pretty much want no haste on my gear for M+ right?
solar rose
You want minimal haste, but don't sacrifice that many ilevels to do so.
high nova
yeah sure
what are the best t2 azerite traits for M+? Elemental Whirl and Unstable flames maybe?
solar rose
There's situations I'd play a higher haste build, tyranical Temple/ Kings rest this week. But very niche scenarios.
Unstable flames is a really good t2 trait, but generally speaking they won't make THAT much of a difference relative to the t1 trait.
high nova
I basically have a 385 with Scent of Blood + Overwhelming power and a 370 SS+Unstable Flames
I guess 370 is going to win here?
solar rose
Scent of blood is really good on fortified weeks, if I had 2 of them I would do that on certain dungeons, but some other dungeons you don't get that value out of almost every pack.
So my answer would be; depends on dungeons and what your other two azerite traits are.
high nova
my other 2 are Scent of blood and Meticulous Scheming( a haste buff 😦 )
really need to get some better azerite pieces on my Rogue somehow
solar rose
Yeah, I would run the SS. It smoothens out the AoE rotation and you can run exsang.
high nova
I will try Exsang next time, been only running with Toxic Blade so far
do you run Poison bomb or Crimson Tempest? Or does it depend on the dungeon as well?
solar rose
Once you get a hang of the opener, it's really easy.
Poison Bomb is very underwhelming and shouldn't be ran in m+. However there's certain instances where this wouldn't apply. You should run Crimson Tempest 95% of the time.
high nova
What's the proper rotation with CT? I can't find really good guides for rogue for some reason
solar rose
You don't use it single target, but if you're running a scent of blood, you can just maintain CT and spread ruptures to get the agility from scent of blood, if the mobs won't last you can spam CT(non elite packs, mobs are at 10% hp) you'd have to do that on the fly.
strange python
Dont let it drop off
high nova
so basically I open with 3 garrotes on trash, then apply Rupture+Garrote's on all of them and then spam CT and never use Envenom until Single target?
solar rose
Make sure you maintain CT in addition to that, but basically yeah.
high nova
well it get's maintained when I spam it right?
or do you mean I should apply it before rupturing everything
solar rose
You aren't going to get all your ruptures and garrotes out before you're going to have to refresh CT.
So just when you're spreading your bleeds, don't let CT fall off
high nova
alright, thanks a ton!
solar rose
np ❤
fluid dawn
ppl can ass use the same gear as outlaw?
vestal wren
you will need 2x dagger
fluid dawn
i know but the body gear is the same?
civic palm
So long the stat weights are similar there's no reason you cannot.
meager basalt
thoughts on elusiveness for heroic ghunn
meager basalt
idk i just like it and i use vigor and ahve 24% haste so energy not an issue
i feel like it will help healers using it on CD
inner pecan
your damage will greatly suffer if you're using feint on cd
but by all means go ahead
vast forum
what exactly will it help with though?
steel abyss
!wa
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination WA's for BFA:
https://wago.io/HJUbINlV7 (Mizerok's Group)
https://wago.io/E1EB91OtM (Lokkek's Group)
https://wago.io/SyLUNGD4X (Sovv's Group)
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)
dawn heath
Hello fellow rogues. I'm a raidleader for a guild thats progressing on mythic Mythrax. I've been having abit of an argument with our rogues about their talent usage. On mythrax we've been strugglign with keeping the raid alive, and since there arent any oneshot mechanics in the fight i thought that leaching poision would be a good talent to take pressure off of the healers.
But the rogue in question insisted that it was a bad idea. After looking through logs, most rogues go for cheat death. But why? and if there is no one shot mechanics doing 1.5k-2k hps should be quite good overall. I would like to hear your opinion on this. for those who have done the fight and maybe have similar experiences
strange python
Because its basically a second life
Eye beam can 1 shot you
Cheat death prevents that
supple hearth
Leeching is a bad idea. Don't use it.
inner pecan
leeching poison is a really weak talent
strange python
Yeah but what if other people run into you?
Lmao if you're forcing rogues to go leeching, get better healers
inner pecan
if he's dying to healing it's not his fault you need to fix your healer issue first
dawn heath
Well people in general are dying
supple hearth
A good healer and avoiding bad > leeching
dawn heath
where as our throughput is low
inner pecan
you're trading an incredibly strong talent (cheat death) for a very mediocre one (leeching)
supple hearth
Do mechanics properly
strange python
Leeching poison wont prevent rogues from dying
inner pecan
cheat death will though 😃
strange python
that 10% is shit
dawn heath
over 10% of a fight though its likely to do about 700k self healing
strange python
no bro
dawn heath
its not terrible
sacred yarrow
Ur rogues are probably using their vial when necessary anyways
supple hearth
Or you can do mechanics properly and your healers can do their job
strange python
^
inner pecan
it's horrible because it's just passive healing when you don't really need it
whereas cheat death is a 2nd life when you need it most
dawn heath
Well for the sake of the argument
i play a demon hunter i can either choose between immunity or 10% leech
and its alot of dhs who play with soulrending on this fight
why doesnt rogues do it
strange python
because we have a vial
inner pecan
because netherwalk is an active ability
sacred yarrow
Ur comparing an immunity to a cheat death....
supple hearth
Because rogue is not dh
It sounds like u want your rogues to take leeching to compensate for your healers not doing enough healing
strange python
welp
dawn heath
yeah i mean we can change a talent
sacred yarrow
The rogues arent intentionally dying while activating their cheat death it being passive is insanely useful
supple hearth
It is avoidable though
sacred yarrow
They have cloak to compare with ur immunity
dawn heath
everything apart from beam are unavoidable
thats why im saying there should enver be a scenario where u proc cheat death
supple hearth
🤔
inner pecan
yes
if you're too low before void echoes cast cheat death will do more than 10% leech
10% leech will barely heal through the dot on you
strange python
oh fuck i thought it was zekvoz
dawn heath
no its mythrax
supple hearth
Do mechanics
Have healers that aren't shit
Your rogues won't proc cheat death
AND won't need to take a shit talent.
Ez
strange python
2nd life > 10% leech
dawn heath
well giggle i agree in an ideal world cheat death has more value
but we work with what we have
supple hearth
You're trying to work in the wrong places though
It's not your rogues talent that need to change
sacred yarrow
Its probably more to do with healer positioning tbh
dawn heath
im trying to improve things on every end
little burrow
I like how this went from "I'm having an argument with my rogues about their talent choices" to "I'm having an argument with my rogues about the talent of our healers"
Taking leeching is never an improvement
civic palm
Cheat Death is literally designed for the un-ideal world > _>
dawn heath
well i think cheat death is amazing. but i also think you undervalue leech. you can see I picked the 10% leech talent and this was our 24 pulls on mythrax (Healing taken) > i was basicly doing 52% of my own healing and healers barely had to touch me
sacred yarrow
Dont compare rogue leech to dh leech...
dawn heath
the talents do the same though
sacred yarrow
No
dawn heath
10% baseline leech
strange python
Hey guys how can i see rotation logs of some top rogue on Zek'voz mythic im having a hard time
civic palm
casts / timeline
supple hearth
!spec
prisma monolithBOT
All specs are good. Specific ones shine in specific areas.
Check the following resources for the facts:
Warcraft Logs: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/19#class=Rogue
Raider.io: https://raider.io/mythic-plus/season-bfa-1/all/world/leaderboards-strict
supple hearth
Use the Warcraft logs link
little burrow
You come in looking for validation about your side of the argument you have with your rogues, everyone tells you your side is shit, you continue arguing with literally all rogues
Probably says something
dawn heath
No i dont look for validation
i was just asking what your opinions was
and i got them
sacred yarrow
Dont dh have 20% baseline leach during meta?
supple hearth
Our opinion is you're wrong
sacred yarrow
And demonic is the current build
sacred yarrow
So ur comparing 30% leech to 10% its not enough
dawn heath
I may not have to agree with it i just wanted a more nyanced picture
civic palm
nuanced, there are no cats here > _>
dawn heath
sorry im not a native speaker
civic palm
Either way, CD is a better talent due to the potential use of the talent, compared to a very poor amount of leech for Rogues.
supple hearth
He did check logs
civic palm
and he's probably using Leeching because he was doing WQ beforehand.
dawn heath
anyway. I wasn't thinking of "forcing" them to change anything i just saw the similarities with my own class and since we were struggling those small things might help
fossil iron
CD will prevent a death, Leeching won't. That's the way i see it.
civic palm
Rogues could top "healing" charts in Legion due to CD being considered an absorb > _> if you wanna talk meters.
dawn heath
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/VgG7xYcdztM6HZkB#fight=11&type=healing heres the highest rogue heal parse
civic palm
_>
supple hearth
Cheat death isn't always for a one shot mechanic. Loot at it as a proc that keeps them alive when they would have died. They shouldn't die in the first place. But it lets them get a 2nd chance. Whereas leeching only helps compensate for bad heals
Again this is a healer issue
civic palm
Also CD let's you live through some fucking insane damage.
supple hearth
Not a rogue issue
civic palm
Though ATM I don't think there are many instances of DMG like that.
Other than tank busters.
and since we can't taunt... it's useless there.
supple hearth
Leeching is only useful when there aren't healers around. Even in PvP u take elusiveness if u have a healer. Leeching should never be taken if you have heals
dawn heath
I sort of just thought maybe cheat death was the lazy play but i see it can be better
civic palm
unless it's a cleave absorb mechanic
Leech is the laziest play.
It's literally no added anything.
Leeching is only needed when you are at low health and trying to live. But why are you at low health?
static temple
civic palm
!wa
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination WA's for BFA:
https://wago.io/HJUbINlV7 (Mizerok's Group)
https://wago.io/E1EB91OtM (Lokkek's Group)
https://wago.io/SyLUNGD4X (Sovv's Group)
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)
balmy perch
thanks
junior aurora
That top healing parse was on a wipe lol
civic palm
YEAH BUT STILL
junior aurora
Also why would you go for leech when you should have raid healers, im sure the healers would rather you either take 30% less damage or cheat death than heal a paltry amount
strange python
cheat death is a discount battle rez
civic palm
It also looks cool.
and sounds cool.
and is cool
O _O
and then they gave it to other people 
junior aurora
I like when it doesnt trigger
civic palm
THE BEST
Not even overkill damage, just doesn't trigger from ticking damage 👌
Thanks.
frosty violet
Personal preference is Leeching Poison. To each his own, but I've personally noticed I die less with Leeching Poison over Cheat Death. I am consistently topped off and I run with 3x Resounding Protection giving me a 33k recurring shield. I have Crimson Vial if after all of that I drop under 70%. The combined sustain is pretty significant and I am almost always the last man standing.
The way I see it, Leeching Poison helps me the most when I play well. Cheat Death helps me the most when I'm learning a fight or making mistakes. Everyone is entitled to believe what they want though.
junior aurora
I take cheat death and am almost always the last one standing, its all subjective
safe matrix
Sounds like you have bad healers 🤷
Having to take leeching is almost always a healer problem
frosty violet
I guess you could see it that way, but Cheat Death is basically a dead talent if you don't fuck up
at least the Leech does something
junior aurora
Then take elusiveness
strange python
What do you mean at least leech does something
civic palm
When you've misplayed and are out of range of healers you can stand around wondering WTF you are doing and why you picked Leeching Poison.
shy dust
Cheat death gives you a much larger margin for error
frosty violet
Wouldn't leeching poison be the best choice when you are out of range of your healers?
statement doesn't compute
junior aurora
No
acoustic tinsel
M+ is CT much better over PB
junior aurora
If you are out of range of healers you are probably out of range of the enemies too lol
shy dust
^
frosty violet
Good thing that doesn't happen
shy dust
So if you’re never out of range of your healers
crisp hollow
cheat death is the best thing about being a rogue
shy dust
How much value are you getting out of 10% leach
frosty violet
Quite a bit, like i mentioned
frosty violet
I would recommend trying it if you haven't. I'm just sharing my experience with it.
civic palm
This isn't Legion where we're Evenoming for millions anymore.
crisp hollow
getting any substantial healing from leeching poison means there's glaring holes in your healing core
frosty violet
I use exclusively in high keys and pretty much never die
civic palm
wow and Leeching alone is the reason eh?!
junior aurora
High keys should go cheat death bc if you do make a mistake you’re dead lol
frosty violet
I don't plan to make mistakes though
civic palm
and yeah Cheat Death is required for high keys as no healing is going to stop 1 shots.
junior aurora
Nobody plans to make mistakes lmao
shy dust
That sounds so dumb wow lol
crisp hollow
lmao this idea that you're just gonna play at 100% execution constantly in M+
guess what, you get 1shot by other people's mistakes too
supple hearth
Leech is good if you're consistently taking damage and need to supplements your healers I.e mythic Guldan soaking
frosty violet
or like, grievous
supple hearth
But unless you're taking consistent damage over a long period then it's not good
And in most scenarios you shouldn't be
crisp hollow
griev shouldnt require an adjustment on your end unless your healer is bad or the tank isn't giving him time to get mana back
the most you should be doing is eating between pulls as your heal does
strange python
You have the vial too
frosty violet
To each their own, not trying to tell you guys to take it, just sharing that I've had positive experiences with it and it is my preferred choice.
strange python
yeah but we were mostly talking about raid
safe matrix
I'm not gonna deny there are fringe uses for it, but overall CD is much better
crisp hollow
even in M+ its pretty essential
esp on push weeks where you're timing things with under a minute left
civic palm
In M+ there are far more uses for CD than in raids ATM.
crisp hollow
its a nice buffer for random damage too on fort
some mobs just throwing shit out constantly
sometimes you get unlucky and they proc CD
lone junco
@high nova fok is for poison spread uptime only until 4t. (2t you will tab mut.)
strange python
bro ur answer is 2 hours late
plush oasis
Anybody have tips for mythic Mother? Noticed on the logs a lot of rogues doing over 20k
strange python
uhh
civic palm
Yeah get to the last room and blow her up.
plush oasis
Maybe my dps dropped off too much because I wasn't left with the boss and had a lot of downtime in the second room.
lone junco
nothing you can do about that
if you go over early, you stand around while warriors kill the slimes
plush oasis
Just want to see if there's anything else I could do to help the numbers in that situation.
civic palm
Just get the tank to tank it near enough to the barrier that you can melee through it.
¯_(ツ)_/¯
plush oasis
ooo is that possible?
plush oasis
Noted.
strange python
Guys where can i see rotation of top rogues for zek voz mythic? there was that site but it no longer shows for assasin rogues
analist something it was called but its not working atm
WoWlogs
casts
civic palm
Just use warcraftlogs > _>
strange python
strange python
long osprey
Is there such thing as too much haste? I'm currently sitting at 26% when in uldir
strange python
can someone look at my casts what am i doing wrong
i have 48%mastery when i enter uldir its so bad 😃
cedar kelp
can someone explain when im supposed to be using galecallers in the opener for exsang build
cedar kelp
interesting. okay thank you
mortal mural
Another question for you experts. I looked through raider.io and noticed some rogues run eszan with poison bomb? Which dungeon is this used for? Do the rest of people just run crimson t with eszan for m plus?
austere spade
on tyrannical weeks on dungeons like kings rest its better to use pb and shit
spice surge
CT vs PB is a decision independant of exsang or TB
You pick CT for dungeons with lots of big packs and PB for dungeons with small packs.
Speeding up the CT bleed is also pretty irrelevant as you can only do it on one mob which means you have to refresh it on all other mobs too early
crisp hollow
exsang pretty much constantly for dungeons as it has value on trash packs
where TB pretty much doesn't at all
strange python
so if i use exsanguinate do i let those dots tick to 0 then refresH'
strange python
so if i have 20sec on garote and 12sec on rupture and exsanguinate ready (this is example)
do i refresh rupture on 6sec and use exsang while it has 14sec garote runing
or i just wait all of it to tick off
if u understand what i mean
crisp hollow
refresh both, ideally with pandemic bonus
strange python
aha
crisp hollow
requires some planning but ideally you accomplish this by garroting your 5th CP, then rupture, then exsang
mortal mural
Thank you everyone.
strange python
oh yes i understand
crisp hollow
you can reverse the order too i dont think the gcd is that noticeable
spice surge
@crisp hollow Interestingly it doesnt actually matter if you refresh garrote before or not, it sims pretty much the same regardless
crisp hollow
oh wow, i wasn't aware
strange python
so if i use 5cp rupture then exsang and if i cast after that garote that ruptures is still under exsanguinate effect while garrote isnt cuz its casted after exsang?
crisp hollow
yeah you don't overrwrite exsang by applying a separate bleed
spice surge
(assuming its not a SS garrote ofc)
strange python
oh shit i was doing the wrong thing then
thanks alot
it has so many fucking variations on paper it looks simple
but in fight with a lot of mobs i always fuck up something 😄
crisp hollow
the best thing is to not overthink it imo
better get a suboptimal cast off than lose it entirely
strange python
today i got confused on zekvoz mythic i tried CT but i didnt do any singnificant dmg more because of it
cuz those adds just die quite fast
crisp hollow
yeah depends on your raid comp too
frosty violet
More dots!
crisp hollow
i'm competing with 2 boomkins, 2 ele sham, a havoc dh and an arms warr
i've accepted that I will NEVER aoe
strange python
fuckin arms warr is always top dps on zek in my guild hes like 20-23k always dps
crazy..
crisp hollow
B L A D E S T O R M
supple hearth
Execute
frosty violet
BOOOONNEESTOOORMMM
civic palm
Execute on 200 targets > _>"
strange python
yea 😄 and he just takes orb and execute execute execute execute execute execute execute
crisp hollow
i can't get a parse on H Zek'voz because the entire raid stacks in the orbs and hope to hit the lotto
crisp hollow
i've only fought Zek once on mythic and just my luck that was the kill so i'm sitting at a cool 33 on Warcraftlogs for a fight i won't get to do again for quite some time (no loot needed from him so not important to bring me on farm)
strange python
not gona lie i just dont know when to use what cd on bosses i just freak out xD
strange python
jelaous 😄
crisp hollow
my M parses are actually so ugly smh, big roster means we sub people in and out a whole shitload so clean rekills are rare for another few weeks
hope to be 90+ across the board by the end of the tier
strange python
dude i have 48% mastery when im in uldir
u have nice stats
not sure what can i do i just dont get the good drops
crisp hollow
mastery's not bad anymore i'm pretty sure
definitely want reorigination to give you haste tho
but besides that everything else is super close
strange python
yea
twist the dagger and heed my call in head dno why it doesnt show
twist the knife*
i have better setup for m+ than for raids like 10times xD
so one question @crisp hollow what is your opener with Toxic blades?
on single target like taloc
and poison bomb
crisp hollow
yeah its good with non-SS setups
crisp hollow
same guide has the opener for TB when you have SS traits
strange python
i see
so do you watch you energy all the time like
you dont cast mutilate if its gona starve ur energy to ultra low right?
crisp hollow
i sometimes get low if im not on top of keeping rupture up and need to burn energy to get to 5CP and reapply
but generally i like to hover at least in the 70's
you're supposed to pool for toxic blade to get 2 envenoms off during its uptime
but beyond that just ensuring you have enough to cast something when needed should be sufficient
strange python
i see
rogue was all fun and games untill i started raiding mythic and now i see there are alot of better people than me now im MONKAS
crisp hollow
i wish that would go away with time but the more i improve the more im exposed to better players
the other rogue in my guild
crushes me and doesn't understand how or why
i look at his logs and it defies logic but it works
strange python
i dont have problems with rogues cuz those in my guild are bad
stark stag
When do I start pooling for TB ?
strange python
haha yea i know i had that hapening to me few time
stark stag
5sec before it gets ready?
crisp hollow
when your dots are at a comfortable duration and its coming off CD
i dont wanna give you an exact number because im sure its subject to change
esp with haste and energy interaction and whatnot
for me its just eyeballing it and being used to a certain range from smacking a dummy around for three hours
strange python
thanks for answers mate gona try tomorrow master assasin cya good night
crisp hollow
np dude good luck
plain spruce
how is the opener with MA, and do i vanish right before tb
polar drift
whats the ideal first ring trait combination for raiding?
quick void
proper zealot
The SimulationCraft Tier 22 profile uses double Archive along with a Twist the Knife, but that might be because it's only intending to use Azerite pieces found in the raid?
¯_(ツ)_/¯
marsh bloom
GCB work in tol dagor ya guys think
proper zealot
Tol Dagor kinda really sucks this week.
keen gull
I did a 10 shrine. it sucks every week.
gleaming stratus
Thought SS was terrible for raids since the long wait in between for vanish unless you run like x3 SS
proper zealot
SS definitely isn't going to be best for raids.
gleaming stratus
Yea
sturdy python
It's too dependent on ilvl, herodamage would show what's best generically
And yes the T22 Sims just use what's in the raid
proper zealot
Awe, that's unfortunate.
Before the Shrouded Suffocation nerfs they had been using 385 (390) Azerite pieces from dungeons, I believe, and they're still using dungeon trinkets, so I wasn't sure if they were only pulling Azerite pieces from raids.
lone junco
before the nerfs? that was weeks ago
sturdy python
Maybe it's changed but ttk definitely isn't the best trait
lone junco
twist is ok if the ilvl is high enough
proper zealot
What does it matter how long ago the nerfs were? I'm talking about where the profile draws its gear from.
lone junco
i dont care about the generic profile.
proper zealot
K?
ember coral
Hello, anyone killed ghuun mythic ?
lone junco
"ss definitely isnt going to be best for raids"
sounds like youre just making stuff up tbh.
proper zealot
Yup, that's exactly what I'm doing.
Azerite armor availability doesn't skew that at all, though, right?
Not like SS is easily available through Mythic Fetid or anything.
(I made that up, too.)
lone junco
sorry, i was still hearing that ss isnt going to be best for raids.
yikes, lots on mother and taloc too.
somber moon
basically any more than 1 target and yea its gonna be pretty good with vanish multi garrote
proper zealot
Availability. Of. Azerite. Armor. 😴
somber moon
in a sim?
white igloo
sims arent everything
lone junco
@fast nacelle i get it. just enjoy absolute phrases. like always, never. etc.
cobalt gyro
my highest simming set doesn't use an SS trait
fast nacelle
got the ghuun chest now so i ll switch to tb
cobalt gyro
for ST, anyway
fast nacelle
for me exsang was higher than tb with 1 ss
lone junco
but im not playing 1 sharp knife 1 ss.
fast nacelle
idc about logs rly
cobalt gyro
i like running exsg more than TB
fast nacelle
i started to play fok trait on ghuun
light jacinth
fast nacelle
but got mind controled anyway
light jacinth
im banned anyway noobe\
lone junco
@light jacinth oh come the fuck on
light jacinth
had to get it in while i could
lone junco
you lurking
light jacinth
na coincidence
proper zealot
Look, all I'm saying is that you reference logs in which people are using Shrouded Suffocation trait(s) but you don't stop to consider the availability of Azerite armor. Mythic Fetid drops an Azerite chest with SS on it and is thereby much easier and more-available then say a Double Dose chest. Doesn't mean it's better for raiding, just means that people are using what they have.
light jacinth
just looked at disc
lone junco
pretty funny timing tbh
lone junco
super meems tho
fast nacelle
nibren is nolifer discord 24/7 just cant admit it
light jacinth
🤷
lone junco
I thought he got banned for wheelchairing tbh
lone junco
your logs are weird
lone junco
speaking of. wheres your buddy jeed
light jacinth
he quit in tos lol
lone junco
idk man. game is drying me up. not enough carrot to keep people on.
fast nacelle
bfa is so boring i started pvp
light jacinth
10ilevs below my main
🤷
doesnt matter
yeah we started pvp aswell before we got banned
fast nacelle
he tried to do asmr
light jacinth
fast nacelle
lone junco
pretty good.
if you have DD, know that you dont fok until 6mobs or something
aside from poison uptime
proper zealot
It's 5+ if you have 2 or more DD traits.
marsh bloom
I only have 1
lone junco
is that really your best hat tho?
lone junco
a 340ss would probably beat that.
but m+ is wonky anyway. plenty of single to stab with.
ayy
gotta get back at it tomorrow. works been busy
marsh bloom
what do you guys use
for the enemy debuffs
cause elvui only shows 5 debuffs at max Ithink
civic hinge
Why does the #1 m+ rogue eat his mic? 
polar drift
shld i go for 2x SS or 1 SS + 1 swirlign sands
polar drift
raid scenario
marsh bloom
Only one place SS healm drops and thats from Shrine @lone junco
Are you using Exsg?
subjterfuge?
but yea sim yourself
???
...
What addon do you guys use to track poisons on your enemy
cause mine only tracks 4-5 debuffs max
light jacinth
name plates
strange python
weakaura on main target, and name plates for the other mobs
light jacinth
i don't even track poisons because theyre just up from fok spamming in an aoe situation
🤷
strange python
I mean poisons, nono. Rupture,garrote, ->nightblade and find weakness i use WA for.
strange python
Yeah..
Sometimes I do envy the alliance and their colors on stuff. Take your shoulders fx!
lone hamlet
8.1 - is is possible to buy azerite pieces
light jacinth
well ye... i don't do +3's
marsh bloom
+3 targets
ebon surge
@strange python
light jacinth
ahh
blissful isle
Anyone wanna have a private 1 on 1 chat about sin, i level 110-120 as outlaw for islands and now that im sin im having a rough time. My simmed dps is 10k but im only doing like 7k.
which obv im trying to put out that 10k
i guess one thing is why do i feel energy deprived
a
solid nova
If you're coming from Outlaw the APM differences to Sin is massive.
- are you simming without external buffs?
Logs always help
blissful isle
i literally hit 120 today after a good day of islands lmao. I hit 120 like 6 hours ago and now im ivll 337 @solid nova
and it feels just as bad as when i hit 120
safe matrix
have you read the guide in the pins?
blissful isle
yeah i went through the website
safe matrix
Its really good to get a solid foundation so we can help easier
blissful isle
took a look at the rotation
safe matrix
but yeah, you'll have to post logs or something, otherwise its just guesswork
civic palm
🔮
blissful isle
@safe matrix i feel like my problem is energy deprivation
blissful isle
cause i feel like im waiting a good 5secs or longer to hit mutilate
right and you know i'd give you logs but all i did today was lfr
blissful isle
ok
safe matrix
its not the difficulty of the fight, cause we can see your rotation regardless
blissful isle
im gonna check my logs rq see if dbm activated on this alt or not
otherwise i thought logs didnt count for dummies?
safe matrix
Warcraft logs
and they don't, but they still log your combat and the actions you did in combat
blissful isle
ok so do the regular /combatlog on the dummy? and then upload?
blissful isle
ok im uploading rn seeing if it counts lmao
safe matrix
but 5 minute fight on the raid dummy
blissful isle
oh 5 minutes? lol
safe matrix
Standard sim is 5 min ST optimal play 100% uptime
blissful isle
ok i see
oh the dummy is known as unknown in the uploader
@safe matrix how long do you want me to fight for, 5mins? right?
safe matrix
yep
blissful isle
ok brb
safe matrix
its the standard, so people can compare
vagrant tide
Is the garrote glitch fixed?
safe matrix
yep
safe matrix
opener is completely wrong
safe matrix
you dont refresh rupture that early either
only reason would be for exsang, but you have TB
blissful isle
ok
marsh bloom
ah the third one overwrote the buffed Garrote
safe matrix
also idnt pool before TB, do you only got 1 envenom in the TB window
marsh bloom
cause you only get 3 gcd's before the subterfuge buff expires
blissful isle
ok
safe matrix
yeah you're refreshing bleeds too often, and overwriting buffed garrotes constantly
never pooling for TB, so you'll get only 1 envenom
overcapping points a lot it looks like too
blissful isle
wait
marsh bloom
Use Vanish with Vendetta in hte opener
marsh bloom
do you use any SS traits?
high siren
you use vanish when your first garrote expires
blissful isle
i see ok
high siren
is about to expire*
safe matrix
use tb on cd, but pool slightly beforehand
marsh bloom
ah SS ok
safe matrix
im gonna let these guys tear into you a bit, but you should probably give the guide a read a bit more thoroughly
marsh bloom
You might sim better with MA
blissful isle
ok gotcha
safe matrix
cause theres a lot of beginner errors in that log
marsh bloom
Garrote
Rupture
Garrote
Vendetta
Toxic Blade
Envenom
Mutilate till 4+ combo points
Envenom
Vanish when Garrote runs out
Garrote twice
One or more Shrouded Suffocation powers for Toxic Blde
crimson marsh
what is APM difference between all 3 specs ? anyone have data on that ?
safe matrix
gimme a sec
blissful isle
OMG I JUST REALIZED TB PROCS ENVENOM
high siren
procs?
high siren
has effect on you mean
safe matrix
but look through those, and read the guide in tandem
blissful isle
ok
safe matrix
see why they do the things they do
blissful isle
well not really procs but like a free envenom
blissful isle
no?
blissful isle
right
Garrote
Rupture
Garrote
Vendetta
Toxic Blade
Envenom
cause right there before that envenom in the middle of the rotation
i would always build up the points to make it hit harder
or am i understanding wrong
safe matrix
@crimson marsh http://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/T22_Raid.html go to the section marked "actions per minute"
blissful isle
ok
safe matrix
right under the main graph
crimson marsh
thanks @safe matrix
marsh bloom
I still don'tk now if I should use TB on 5 CP or not
blissful isle
ok interesting
proper zealot
It's fine to use Toxic Blade at 5 Combo Points.
Not ideal, but not the end of the world if you do.
crimson marsh
My guild is working our way trough HC. This weeks raids are over, zul wipe on 1% multiple pulls. Next week its going down 100%. So, for Mythrax, how much better would sin be vs ol ?
I start to get decent on outlaw pulling high % parses and contesting top3 dps for most fights. I have competitive spirit. If I can perform a lot higher as sin on mythrax, I will highly consider it
marsh bloom
How are you wiping on heroic Zul?
crimson marsh
our tank dies on p2 😄
marsh bloom
how many sub rogues do you have?
crimson marsh
0
safe matrix
its heroic zul, you dont need sub rogues
crimson marsh
under 6min
safe matrix
Yeah, I thought he was just asking about general advice not just sin stuff
crimson marsh
there is no gain from sub in p2, is there ?
safe matrix
nope, the sub strat only works for mythic
crimson marsh
exactly
marsh bloom
as sin?
crimson marsh
outlaw
high siren
you don't need really more
i'm sure 35% of your dps came from crawgs, which doesn't help muuuuch
zul hc is only about focus prio adds, soak, dispells
dreamy quail
just wanted to verify the sin guide is still valid? I just came back to my rogue and was watching infexious but was wondering if shroud and mark for death were still good for raiding?
solid nova
Yes, it's still valid.
wispy wigeon
just got lion's guile, what's the verdict on it? nobody on warcraftlogs seems to be using it
supple matrix
i know i been using dooms wake and if i recall lions guile is the alliance version of it it seems to work well with horde for single target and pvp
drifting elbow
lions guile is pretty meh generally
its not better than 370 GCB
nor 340 harlan's
supple matrix
i know i been using a dooms wake personally on recommendation of blood mallet showing its one of our stronger trinkets on horde side at 370 ilvl but ive not gotten a badge to test the difference
wispy wigeon
yup simming now between 370 harlans and 370 KR trinket
supple matrix
yea i definitely understand that but considering im still gearing atm only just recently hit 355 ilvl its working well
wispy wigeon
dont have galecallers unfortunately
drifting elbow
KR trinket is probably better
drifting elbow
i would like u to sim with nightly to make sure
wispy wigeon
nightly?
supple matrix
i know i was doing some looking into the dooms wake and with it hitting and maintaining 1895 agi for 6 sec its not bad but until i get a badge of equal or close ilvl value i cant quite tell which is better in the scenario
veq do you by chance have a badge at 370 ilvl or similar to compare with?
drifting elbow
i dont
supple matrix
id really like to know the value of how much agi the on use gives
drifting elbow
why isnt ur sim, slot based chezzie?
wispy wigeon
im a simming noob probably
wispy wigeon
prob the 15 ilvls make a diff
quite clueless about assassination but thinking about switching from outlaw
supple matrix
assassination is pretty easy just keep bleeds up for energy regen and dump envenoms into the target perferably with toxic blade on target
drifting elbow
i guess atm mastery is that valuable to u since without guile trinket, u dont have a lot of it, so pairing that agi and mastery passive is that good upgrade
wispy wigeon
huh yeah could be cause mastery is trash for outlaw so my gear generally doesnt have much of it
marsh bloom
Why is everyone telling me it's bad to have 8% haste in M+
but my stat weights for haste is so low
plain cairn
I run 6% this week if i recall correctly
shy escarp
in general haste is poorly valued in M+. in fortified weeks I wouldn't care at all, maybe in tyrannical you consider a more balanced setup so bosses aren't as bad
harsh glacier
Eh haste is still somewhat needed for the energy regen
I wouldn't go any less than 10%
Like yeah it's bad for aoe, but gl getting ruptures out with no energy
shy escarp
crit is better than haste for getting ruptures out on trash
harsh glacier
At least initially, low haste makes our already slow aoe start slower
drifting elbow
what?
u r overestimating value of haste on short pull trash packs
and how its ''slow'' when u use SS traits for m+ dps
drifting elbow
only with easy affixs
steep obsidian
if only there was a place where you could simulate a fight with a few mobs over a short duration to see how good some stats are over others
harsh glacier
We still pull 3 packs on grievous
drifting elbow
that is literally easy affix
proper igloo
355 archive or 340 ss for m+?
steep obsidian
this week is not an easy affix unless your healer is godlike
drifting elbow
🤔
steep obsidian
grievous is rough
drifting elbow
healer must be super bad if he cant keep debuffs on ppl lower than 3 stacks all the time
steep obsidian
how high keys do you do?
steep obsidian
😐
drifting elbow
if shit pug healer can keep group alive while dying to grievous 10k ticks with full stack debuff
i cant imagine good healer struggling
drifting elbow
im not guessing???
steep obsidian
i know good healers who struggled this week
drifting elbow
literally been running them
regal snow
12 was cancer at all with pugs dont know how it feels like on a higher level
drifting elbow
i mean grievous is only there when ppl fall below 90% hp
most of dmg can be avoided
first stack of debuffs doesnt even tick that hard to begin with
steep obsidian
its almost permanently on the tank
drifting elbow
yeah like 1 person is under constant grievous ticks
ruby idol
Almost every dungeon has an ability that will just hit melee if the tank is out if range
At higher keys tanks have to kite
We have unavoidable grievous stacks often
drifting elbow
sure there is unavoidable stacks
ruby idol
Brushing off grievous with just avoid it 4Head
ruby idol
Is disingenuous or ignorant
drifting elbow
we did dungeon and most deaths came from grievous ticks cuz healer didnt heal above 90% 
steep obsidian
seriously last week healers were dpsing in like 14s
this week lol gl
if you think this week is easy what was last week?
drifting elbow
both is easy
ruby idol
Its dungeon and comp specific, but generally last week was a super push week
And this week is not
drifting elbow
never claimed anything about being easy to push to highest m+ levels
just that grievous affix itself is pretty easy
ruby idol
I mean its relative tho is it not?
At lower level keys every affix is easy, but is grievous easy in comparison to other affixes? I think the answer is no
drifting elbow
does grievous do higher dmg the higher m+ u run then
steep obsidian
it does more dmage when you have more hp
ruby idol
No but everything else does, so grievous is applied more often, and takes much more effort to remove from the tank because of that
Which means less attention is able to be spent removing it from dps
Which compounds to dps getting higher stacks
steep obsidian
getting it off a tank when the tank is getting smashed is hard and its liek the biggest source of dmage they take
ruby idol
Which makes it harder to remove
drifting elbow
sure it gets harder to remove
ticks are still on lower problem in the list
stacks would need to be on max levels to be threatening levels
ruby idol
I think the point is you saying if your healer struggles with grievous they're not good is a wack statement when you're doing irrelevant content
drifting elbow
''irrelevant''
ruby idol
And not very nice to those healers, when grievous is hard
drifting elbow
when im not pushing to highest levels like u guys
we got way different definition what is good healer between +9 to +18
if healer cant handle fucking +9 grievous
idk what to say about that guys ability when overgeared
ruby idol
I mean if someone is doing +9s, I'd assume it's because for that players skill level, that content is relatively challenging, no?
Which doesnt necessarily make them a bad player right?
drifting elbow
there isnt that many ppl who enjoys pushing to maximum skill levels
ruby idol
Which is why you just being like get a better healer 4Head is lame
But this is super off topic now
drifting elbow
oh please do run a +9 with different healer skill set that is not equal to 18 healer
drifting elbow
seen too many healers who doesnt even know what the fuck is grievous
they are just mounting up and running to next pack when 3 guys got stacking debuffs
high siren
ask them before the run
drifting elbow
high siren
that's why the r.io thing exists actually, you can see who actually care about mythic + and who doesn't
drifting elbow
sure u can see
but those points doesnt actually guarantee ur skills unless u r 1k+
ruby idol
Io is good because it shows someone cares to get score, which typically means they care about being good. And caring about being good is like 80% of how to be good at this game
drifting elbow
io is flawed in full server realms
high siren
you still can see if the said player has completed a run this week
ruby idol
God that server argument is so boring
drifting elbow
like half of my 7-9 runs doesnt even get logged cuz so many ppl ran 10+
boring?
500 top runs logged
means u are not getting +5 logged into that
long road to get to good groups from nothing with pugging
ruby idol
It doesnt even exist until Thursday or Friday typically, and score doesnt matter below 10s, so all of the runs that wouldn't get logged, should not be impacted anyway
high siren
yeah that's a long road, but ppl with a good score today did all that earlier
ruby idol
And I think a lot of the crowd that think their io score holds them back from groups is under the impression that every group they get declined from actually has the addon or knows what io is
drifting elbow
pugs certainly loves to use raider io points gained below 10 as criteria of skill set
ruby idol
Like shit is just random, I'm 1900 of a desirable class and that's still not a guaranteed inv to 10s
People just decline people for reasons that dont need to be logical
drifting elbow
ofc there is no logics
ruby idol
It's not your scores fault as much as I think people play it up to be
Not saying you specifically do that
ruby idol
Pugs think X class is good or X class is bad because they played with like 1 random good player of X class, and now they decline everyone who isnt that class
Shit like that happens all the time
drifting elbow
¯_(ツ)_/¯
ruby idol
Idk what sparked me to ramble so hard holy shit haha
crystal lintel
quick question, is it worth using 2-3 shrouded suffocation traits still?
i know stuff depends on fights / content, but in general i mean
drifting elbow
for m+ at least one SS is preferred
crystal lintel
aight, cheers
drifting elbow
other traits are up to ur judgement and short time sims
crystal lintel
is subterfuge less good after the SS nerf?
pastel vault
we killed ghuun with 0 people alive
boss was .1s from resetting
yeah it's still best talent though
drifting elbow
gz with such close kill
pastel vault
the pull before was 16k hp
knotty dew
@drifting elbow Grievous is also harder when dps doesn't know how to avoid taking damage. So yes you could think you have a struggling healer but in reality it's the dps who does not know how to avoid avoidable damage... it's not just a "healer skill check". The higher the key the higher both avoidable and unavoidable damage to everyone so the harder grievous gets eventhough the actual ticks are equal, but they happen a lot more often combined with more damage income.
drifting elbow
i do agree that grievous difficulty varies depending on everyones ability to avoid shit, but somehow normal situation becomes hard for healer that is not up to his job to deal with 90%+ heals on simple pack that doesnt cause a lot of dmg to invidual players
tulip reef
Hi, Sorry I am brand new to rogue so I have a really noob question. I keep inspecting other rogues and it seems they are going mastery. When I run simcraft though its clearly telling me haste out weighs mastery - Does this mean that there is a soft haste cap somewhere and then it devalues to such a point things like mastery/crit become more optimal ?