underrot not having any the whole way is pretty annoying
#assassination
vague patrol
dreamy fiber
That's my point, all should
lucid bolt
shrine is ridiculously a long run
vague patrol
i think it's the only dungeon without one
strange python
Well yeah
lucid bolt
wtf underrot has no checkpoints? thats crazy
lucid bolt
true yeah that thing is nice
some people dont know about it though and still do the long run lol
maaaaaaaan i realy love this expansion though but im not diggin the azerite gear so much
vague patrol
azerite gear is bad but it's mainly just in the background for me and i focus on raid/pvp/m+
dreamy fiber
The one thing I wish was in m+ over everything is some system that means you don't have to take a CR class
lucid bolt
i think it has had the best leveling experience so far
vague patrol
it was pretty annoying how long it took to get 385/370 pieces with bad luck but it still wasn't too bad
@dreamy fiber aren't they adding combat rez for engineering
lucid bolt
another thing i dont like about wow lately is that there seems to be no diversity in specs/classes like all assassin rogues play the same
strange python
There is an item that u can brez with
dreamy fiber
??
vague patrol
in 8.1 i think
lost coral
people caring about performance will always play the same or?
lucid bolt
yeah true chammi
i guess thats just the way it has to be
i just feel like everyone is the same nothing special
cookie cutter type stuff
strange python
Nvm the item must be used out of combat ๐
dreamy fiber
Yeah, my idea was like a ghost that follows you round and Cr's people
Things that increase class choice basically
vague patrol
they seem to be going the opposite direction where they want certain specs/classes to have specific utility
that make them desirable
in certain situations
strange python
of course
crimson marsh
there always will be cookie cutters and go to builds. Everyone wants to play optimal build
lucid bolt
thats cool sinister i probably just havent noticed
vague patrol
but it is kind of annoying tbh
dreamy fiber
it really goes against them and their plan for M+ esports
crimson marsh
there are other builds, but noone wants to lose 2% dps
vague patrol
kind of, most people at that level play multiple classes though
lucid bolt
but if everyone wants to play optimally then everyone would just pick the top melee dps and top range dps then we wouldnt have any diversity at all in this game
thin ingot
anyoen knows at what ilvl i can loot a 370 azerite from emmisary?
lucid bolt
lol could u imagine a raid with 4 types of classes that would be hilarious
crimson marsh
370+
dreamy fiber
367+ apparently
thin ingot
forreal i need to be 370 for a 370 emmisary? daaaaaamn
dreamy fiber
I'm just going off the wowhead QQ tho
lucid bolt
lol nice picture stabatouille
lost coral
I just want my SP back, hopefully 8.1 does a good job
thin ingot
thanks 
crimson marsh
well, I don't mind 370 req for 370 chest.
no free gear should be rewarded from wq anyway
thin ingot
its for my alts though
crimson marsh
i don't care if its your alt or your mom
proud tusk
367+ will give you 370 from emissary
dreamy fiber
8 hours at work and all ive done is sit in discord. win or loss? hmmm
crimson marsh
reddit states its 370 in bags
thin ingot
i got a 370 chest with double douse and head with my rog
so im pleased
first time i get a useful trait
crimson marsh
apparently slacking ๐
crimson marsh
work is like a torture, when you want to go and hit some m+, but you have to be at work
lucid bolt
maybe even get myself a longboi
crimson marsh
how much does a token go for atm in eu ?
lucid bolt
hot damn
thats considered low?
would i save money buy buying tokens instead of subscribing at 15$ a month?
dreamy fiber
Just middle management in a manufacturing company
crimson marsh
legion was stupid with amount of money you could make
dreamy fiber
Boring af @lucid bolt
crimson marsh
we all play rogues. Everyone hates us
solid nova
Please, #off-topic . Keep the spec channels on topic
lucid bolt
we are sociopaths according to shane dawson
supple dagger
Hello can somebody check my logs and tell me what I'm doing wrong or what can improve in my rotation? https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/6PaxhpBdLWvRcQ7T#fight=14&type=damage-done
dreamy fiber
monkaS
lucid bolt
monkaS
crimson marsh
fun police detected. just like blizz
lucid bolt
i love assassinating stuff how about u guys?
crimson marsh
my tank likes me because of iron wire
dreamy fiber
my tank hates me cos I tricks my healer
lucid bolt
i used to use iron wire
i changed it to prey on the weak i think
im gonna go chill in off topic if anyone is there
strange python
What ilvl are u
burnt lagoon
Should be live on EU also
cyan stump
from?
silk jolt
i'm 37x
strange python
Well do u have a cache with armor u can get?
supple dagger
I have 368 ilvl and yesterday i saw this emmisary and reward was 355 azerite armor
spice surge
Hotfixes yesterday
thin ingot
as soon as servers restart the mythic + cache becomes available?
cyan stump
at 9 am for eu servers
lone junco
@tidal sedge speed the m+ guy beating seli. or some other speedbleed from years ago. or another guy with a very common word for a name
lost coral
unluck if you did the voldunai wq on sunday for an 340 item, when they fix it monday ๐
tidal sedge
nope I just go be speed way back from before they made combat arms go global if you know when that was
did get my ww friend a 370 dice yesterday
lone junco
dice are good. shoulda kept em
spice surge
How else would you RP outlaw 
tidal sedge
Yeah but I have a 350 spyglass and a 370 dooms wake so no point in me keeping it
tidal sedge
:+1:
tidal sedge
hoping we get some good keys after reset
lone junco
HELL NO. MY DICE
uneven summit
Do you guys prefer playing Toxic Blade or Exsan
lone junco
depends on content and what is best st at that time
strange python
venom rush
lone junco
I played Exang in legion for like 8months. and it is probably just ok right now.
but it is better in M+
tidal sedge
I used to use tb but exsang feels better all around and gives you a bit of energy regen when you need it
lone junco
"prefer" being the word of choice. i preferred when we played NS rupture. I feel that garrote should never be top of the st profile.
tidal sedge
the rotation feels weird now that SS is fixed and you don't have to hold onto garrotes
strange python
Exsang is super useful when running Ct too
tidal sedge
gross ct
lost coral
you should always take exang in m+ in imo
lost coral
most of the time you cant spend points on envenom anyway
strange python
I still can't make myself play CT rofl
lone junco
why?
uneven summit
TB still better on ST tho as far as i can sim and see
tidal sedge
once I get all my bleeds up I envenom main target and spam FoK
lone junco
@uneven summit my exang is a little over tb. but 1ss min. must use subterfuge.
tidal sedge
it's going to be tyrranical teeming volcanic for na this week
strange python
for eu too
tidal sedge
debating if I want to try it
sturdy python
Easy week
tidal sedge
ct that is
lone junco
teeming volcanic. non fort should just be kiting big trash right?
frosty gyro
Huh yeah
On one hand tyrannical on the other teeming
Probably still better to go CT in most cases on teeming
tidal sedge
my ele shaman friend did 45k yesterday on the trash before the gold boss in atal it was pretty funny
lone junco
yohoho
strange python
Yeah I do 13k+ with PB
gaunt isle
wait till you do that on zul mythic, but only damaging boss, pretty neat @tidal sedge
sturdy python
This is what you call feelycraft :D
keen urchin
comparing DPS without knowing gear ๐ค
keen urchin
or dungeon
lost coral
or key lvl
strange python
I know that noobe runs SS rofl
lone junco
I feeel like CT is an active skill that matters. once Ive tabbed out the 4 ruptures, I feeel like I want to press ct.
strange python
and so do I
frosty gyro
Overall dps can vary from a lot of stuff not a great measure really lol
lone junco
I live in feely craft. it is called intuition. and simulations are used to validate expectations.
frosty gyro
simulations
lone junco
@strange python as we were saying.
frosty gyro
M+
tidal sedge
lol I wish I could do mythic I want those red daggers so bad
sadly I play on a potato
gaunt isle
literally anyone can if they put their mind to it, but thats offtopic stuff ^^
tidal sedge
I have to lower my resolution to 33% to run wcm
frosty gyro
Nice edit btw
lone junco
what if my mom read them. eeek
tidal sedge
lol
lone junco
@strange python one day i look forward to 1ss 2scent. but for now, it is rip
ember ermine
I noticed how much MA/TB rotation sucks for add swapping
keen urchin
scent sounds boring as hell
harsh glacier
I run 2x ss and 1x scent
stable coyote
What is the best combo now? Earlier it was SS all the way
harsh glacier
its pretty solid
strange python
@stable coyote There are many combos
tbh
Stat traits are better for higher keys
lone junco
@sturdy python how, actually. In factual facty land. do you feel that rotations in apl, and these azerite sets are tuned? is it all just mushed into the computer and Poop. out comes the best rotation given each azerite trait change?
Or do you think some experience, intuition, or hunch is used to adjust inputs? what if, per se, you feeelt like 3 fucking garrotes is better than the current APL. ?
NOPE. SIM SAYS GGR. WE GONNA GGR.
harsh glacier
scent is better for tyrannical I thinkkk
gritty solstice
so basically 2x ss and 1 scent is bis atm?
lone junco
no.
I want scent to be best for me. but it isnt.
if you pull like seli and can maintain 35k over 1min duration tho.
frosty gyro
Yeah like I'm 100% sure APL isn't optimized for TB perfectly yet, and it definitely uses the wrong opener if your have TB and SS
strange python
There is no strict BiS
lone junco
its all pretty close.
lone junco
even when the SS was super strong. 1 garrote was worth 100k damage.
sim still did ggr
cause it doesnt want to overcap
and because at 5mins it was not a huge gain
harsh glacier
whats ggr?
strange python
garrote garrote rup
lone junco
but in a world of 20-40s trash it is a HUGE gain
lone junco
so miss me with that feelycraft shaming.
frosty gyro
Sim also prioritizes pandemic refreshing rupture over using envenom in TB even if there is 7 sec left on rupture
harsh glacier
literally just sim yourself with 5 patchwerk for 40s
harsh glacier
Speed is running 2x archive 1x ss atm, dunno if thats his raid gear though
marsh bloom
On Ghuun just bleed everything?
tidal sedge
wat I don't even have 2 archives
harsh glacier
pretty sure its 4 agi stacking 20 times
frosty gyro
Basically if you wanna pad for logs yeah
harsh glacier
not you, teh actual good Speed :p
strange python
@marsh bloom yeah just around dotting shit
frosty gyro
DoT all the things
tidal sedge
o
lone junco
tbh, if you have 3 even ilvl SS those are great. but once your stuff is 40ilvl back, you gotta make choices.
tidal sedge
harsh glacier
Yeah I have 3x ss at 340 ilvl
but then I have shit like ditb and sob at 370 ilvl
hard to know what to do
marsh bloom
so I will never get kicked from a heroic ghuun group again
do more archives just give you more stat?
harsh glacier
sim told me 2x ss and 1x sob though
lone junco
for m+ that is fine
tidal sedge
what i do is use top gear on raidbots
strange python
@marsh bloom yeah more agil
harsh glacier
selia is using 1x archive, 1x ss and 1x sob atm
probly just highest ilvl pieces I spose
stable coyote
Whats the best way to sim for m+ noobe? 5bosses 1min?
harsh glacier
5 bosses 40 seconds
tidal sedge
when you hit play and forget there is maintenance
harsh glacier
imo
sturdy python
@lone junco I think youre confused about what I was referring to. The conversation was about PB vs CT and the justification for not using CT was an arbitrary overall dps number. That's called feely craft. Not intuition
lone junco
the whole point of 6t 40s patchwerk (no buffs) is to simulate the garrotes and fok condition and GC usage on pull. if your group pulls small try 4 20. idk what people do.
I know. just
frosty gyro
Justifaction for using CT is also feelycraft?
harsh glacier
CT > PB
lone junco
sturdy python
I'm not saying which is better lol I was making a joke. People got upset apparently
harsh glacier
Speedoflife literally laughed at me when I asked if PB was good last night
feltbadman
frosty gyro
Depends on dungeon and group pull style. CT is optimally better than PB if you're pushing with a good comp and people that know what they are doing.
lone junco
@sturdy python you werent wrong. 14k overall vs 13k overall is some vaguebook stuff.
frosty gyro
If you just run 10-12 pugs PB might be better for some dungeons
strange python
nah
harsh glacier
PB will never match trash dps ever
sturdy python
If more than 3 targets live long enough for CT to run out then there isn't really an argument for pb
frosty gyro
And there are still guys using PB clearing +16s in time ๐ค
strange python
So what
harsh glacier
+16s is bad atm though?
lone junco
but we both run 3ss. If we both logged each dungeon and used the same tanks, and had same kill times. yadda yadda
lone junco
I just like CT.
harsh glacier
people timing 18s use only CT
lone junco
gives me something to press when the tank is on the move
frosty gyro
@harsh glacier how many +16s have you completed in time this season?
tropic hull
18s add live enough
harsh glacier
none, Ive only been playing for 3 weeks
hollow escarp
@frosty gyro well, if you check my rio you can see that I did keys with raiding gear/talents because I logged out with them.. unless you saw on a stream what talents they are using
harsh glacier
but Im doing 12s in 3 weeks of playing sooo I feel thats alright
lone junco
seli said he will only play PB on Tyr snake temple. or something
I feel that is a good assessment
frosty gyro
The people doing 18s are like I said organized groups that have specific strategies where they group stuff up and AOE them down. CT is obviously better there
harsh glacier
think its apparently viable in KR too
strange python
CT is overall better in m+
frosty gyro
If you do pugs with people who cc infested mobs and do smaller pulls PB can be better
frosty gyro
And there's also the dungeon factor
harsh glacier
grouping stuff up and aoeing down isnt an organised strategy
frosty gyro
Yes it is
hollow escarp
I can agree with that @frosty gyro
harsh glacier
grouping stuff up and aoeing down is every m+ group ever
frosty gyro
Like they pull 3-4 packs and have a frost slow everything and AOE
harsh glacier
from +2s - +25s
frosty gyro
No one does that in pugs
harsh glacier
oh that kinda aoe
lone junco
i loved the Waycrest vids of pulling from the Tree boss to the entrance
frosty gyro
Because of the infested affix
harsh glacier
surely noones doing that bolstering week
hollow escarp
only thing I like about Bolstering is that finally pug tanks dont chain pull ๐
lone junco
giga pulls.
lone junco
we dont do giga pulls ๐ฆ
hollow escarp
infested is the LFR version of Explosive
lone junco
infested would be different if it were random on kill. not pre-buffed
frosty gyro
ANd DH does what?
harsh glacier
aoe stun + insane aoe?
harsh glacier
DH can solo infested in like 5 seconds
frosty gyro
What key level are you running?
harsh glacier
12s
lone junco
do not engage.
frosty gyro
Oh you mean the ghun specifically
harsh glacier
yeah
frosty gyro
Not the infested mob
harsh glacier
Oh the infested mob is why they giga pull?
frosty gyro
See the thing is that if you pull infested mobs with a pack only DPS on the infested mob matters
tropic hull
how do you kill pack with ghuun mob chat? CC and pull away or burst and stun?
frosty gyro
No infested is why pugs don't giga pull
harsh glacier
yeah we just cc the infested mob and kill adds
frosty gyro
And why PB can be better in those groups and especially on certain dungeons
strange python
@tropic hull U burst ghuun mob and kill the worms
and continue with the rest of the pack
frosty gyro
So you fight multiple packs at -1 mob, making AOE less effective, then you kill a single mob, making CT useless there
rocky notch
Pb is just awful
strange python
its really not that hard
frosty gyro
So you burst down a single mob in the pack and your AOE dps is worthless
See why that's not a good thing for CT?
strange python
U can still use CT
harsh glacier
well its fine for the aoe pack
strange python
Just main damage for ghuun mob
tropic hull
but that strat bad for SS
frosty gyro
^
harsh glacier
you cc the infested mob and pull the rest away so they dont heal...
then you aoe them down
frosty gyro
And youy fight 2 smaller pulls
strange python
or u can do that
frosty gyro
Lol?
harsh glacier
ct still better than pb for that
rocky notch
You cc 2 infests
frosty gyro
And it depends on dungeon
harsh glacier
if its a pull of 3 mobs we just take the ghuun with it and burst it down quickly
frosty gyro
@rocky notch see that's the smart thing to do, but that's not what pugs normally do
harsh glacier
its alive for like 10 seconds
harsh glacier
then you can CT the worms and the rest of the trash too
yeah thats what we do Michee
harsh glacier
it slows you down a little, but its not a big deal
frosty gyro
Yeah but it's making CT not a clear winner depending on group/dungeon
tropic hull
yea overall it's easy
frosty gyro
Are you talking about people pushing high keys in groups that pull 3-4 packs and aoe everything dows?
Yeah they use CT
tropic hull
i mean, if you have good group
frosty gyro
But not everything is 3+ targets
tropic hull
on 10 key mobs die to fast imo
frosty gyro
No it isn't
Especially if you cc infested
And there's also bosses to consider
And it depends on dungeon
Like I've said multiple times
harsh glacier
you dont cc infested at 3 targets
remote oak
This isnโt legion anymore. Canโt just AoE everything down
frosty gyro
It's not up to you
harsh glacier
yes it is, I tell the tank
strange python
Imagine ccing infested at 3 targets rofl
frosty gyro
And if they say "nope ccing infested"
strange python
wasting so much time
harsh glacier
well he's my mate on discord with me sooo
random scroll
why is this alt simming so low ๐ค https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/6tkfDG8smUoNqYj2gSexUJ
harsh glacier
sure you're talking about pugs
lone junco
seli was talking about banish 1 enfested, blind 2nd, giga pull the trash, and then double kill the infesteds.
harsh glacier
most pugs know what theyre doing tbh
strange python
@random scroll Try Subter + toxic blade / MA + toxic blade
lone junco
๐
random scroll
done it, it's like 100 dps +/-
strange python
On higher keys, yes
harsh glacier
take people with IO over 1000
random scroll
for both builds
summer marten
@random scroll just 2 array stacks?
tropic hull
i have dh with 1000 io and that dh don't know about buffs on tol dagor
strange python
Idk beewer
frosty gyro
Seen people with 1200 io cc infested on 3 packs
random scroll
i'm not revered with CoA on this char tho but don't think the neck makes it a 1k+ dps
strange python
Maybe ur secondary stats just suck
random scroll
yes @summer marten it's an alt
strange python
You can also try archive on ur chest too
ember ermine
you also have 2 stacks of Array @random scroll
strange python
and then switch to MA + TB
frosty gyro
Not to mention there's not a large difference between ccing infested on a 3 pack and not ccing it
random scroll
i've compared with an other rogue with similar gear, and on 2 array stacks and he's at 16k that's what surprised me
frosty gyro
The only real different is if you cc multiple infested/pull multiple packs
Or if you have something like VW
Or Shuriken Combo
lone junco
@random scroll you have 13ilvl on me, and same dps. something is a bit wonky.
random scroll
ikr
lone junco
mythic 395 rot ring. nice alt
summer marten
array stacks and traits + secondary traits can do a lot
lone junco
missing 10 ilvl on neck
summer marten
neck is a lot of stats too
random scroll
yes i tought that could be the problem but 1k difference ๐ค
spice surge
Its really not
random scroll
can't sim it unfortunatly
spice surge
Neck is pretty irrelevant
strange python
ye it really is
spice surge
15 ilvl on neck is pretty close to a socket
spice surge
Ilvl is just an awful indicator of damage
tropic hull
yep
random scroll
as I said i've compared to a similar rogue and put his array stack to 2
he was at 16k still
lone junco
hrrm.
steep obsidian
did he have mythic weapons?
lone junco
try nightly sim. 100k
steep obsidian
they count for a lot
random scroll
one, i've simmed with it aswell, it's like 300 dps increase
spice surge
You have a lot of vers, a vers heavy ring even
tidal sedge
someone give me the motivation to do chores before the reset
unkempt gulch
no
red plaza
i've noticed sometimes that it will randomly sim 1000 dps lower when using quick/stat weights. Try a quick sim
lone junco
quick sim is a low iteration. (not that we need a lot)
sturdy python
Everything looks fine on that sim, likely just stat distribution
rancid sedge
during m+ when you do the four empowered garrotes, do you wait for them to fall off or do you refresh them?
red plaza
try toxic blades maybe
random scroll
i've tried changing all the vers gear to haste and it was maybe 200 difference
at equivalent ilvl
rancid sedge
cause garrote has 5 sec cd outside stealth so do you let them all drop first?
red plaza
you only have 3 empowered garrotes sinzz
desert vault
hehe, got my 295 instead of 370 and blizz said, "Sorry about your luck" to my ticket ๐
red plaza
and the ss bug is no longer there, so let the empowered ones stay on and you can apply non-empowered garrotes freely
red plaza
empowered ones let them fall off
red plaza
if you watch them tick its like 3500-5000 a tick compared to 1-1.5k
lone junco
unless you vanish refresh them. yes
red plaza
main priority should be keeping ruptures up on 3 targets and crimson tempest up
lone junco
i wouldnt normally burn vanish on trash like that, unless it is important
tidal sedge
hmm how to compare pb with ct
fossil iron
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/cu9wGRAvocG2QtP3CtWa7X i'm simming kinda low, I feel as though this is due to my daggers but I was wondering if you guys can see anything else that's up
tidal sedge
5 bosses 40 seconds yea?
spice surge
Azerite & daggers @fossil iron
fossil iron
cheers
random scroll
he's simming higher than my alt brb dying
sturdy python
Might wanna throw an agi gem in a socket if haste isn't simming higher than it, but that's minor
lone junco
@random scroll I logged out in the wrong gear, else Id share as well. sorry for your alt.
not really tho.
random scroll
: (
lone junco
as it is my main.
tidal sedge
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/phb7fR1VmKrtLJbCUUdFTS this is what i gots
random scroll
i'll try some other stuff when I get back
lone junco
@random scroll have anything other than the 2nd archive?
tidal sedge
gross why is tb ct better
probably wrong sim stuff but w/e https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/wZqPU7JBsao7DN8a9iEwVf
tidal sedge
ugh im actually going to try CT later
lone junco
@tidal sedge try change to patchwerk.
rancid sedge
there any way to sim for m+ specifically? or more just sim 5 min patchwerk?
tidal sedge
do 5 bosses for 40 seconds
fossil iron
I do 1 min 5 bosses @rancid sedge
lone junco
tidal sedge
gives ayou an idea
rancid sedge
ty
ember ermine
@lone junco 3xSS or 2xSS 1xSoB for M+
lone junco
i feeel like . if the scent is substantially higher ilvl than your 3rd ss. go with scent. else ss
sturdy python
@random scroll just get a 395 socketed dagger, ez pz
ember ermine
My SoB is 355 and SS is 340
lone junco
@tidal sedge your energy is capping in that Exang sim. so it is dunking your dps.
the sim doesnt refresh CT early when your ruptures are out, and E is capped
45k is pretty high sustain for actual game play.
crimson marsh
is bleed damage considered natural for tb ?
sturdy python
No
wheat zealot
Bleed is physical lol
crimson marsh
but it means that with tb we have to envenom a lot.
sturdy python
Usually yes
wheat zealot
Yeah thats the point of tb
lone junco
afk work.
tidal sedge
โค noobe
sturdy python
Still will get benefit from poisons but not so much
wary anchor
If i just used tempest do i evenom with the next 5 cp or another tmepest?
rancid sedge
i think 5+ is another tempest?
wary anchor
ok
strange python
Gar > mut > rup > ven > van > tb > mut > env
indigo verge
and how does it change ur general rotation when u vanish
do u just combine vanish with tb and pooled energy and combo points
strange python
yeah u should vanish with 3cp
into tb
mut mut env
MA is just 50% crit for 3 sec
spice surge
or with 4/5 cp
Better to waste a CP than to hold on to your cds for like 5 seconds
(tb mostly)
maiden arch
370 sharpened blades in ST is even worth trying/simming?
verbal nimbus
simming takes 30 seconds, everything is worth simming
sudden juniper
I suppose once you don't have SS anymore you'll want to go for Master assassin instead of Subterfuge?
maiden arch
its a bit tricky, it says that i should take the generic trait (crit + haste proc bullshit PVP) instead of sharpened blades even on ST
but if you look at the traits by themselves, Sharpened is above the Liberator's might one.
on M+ i'll keep the shrouded shoulders so it's not that big of a deal
wheat zealot
Sb simmed higher than the crit haste proc for me, i was hoping it wouldnt tbh
knotty dew
!SS
maiden arch
@keen urchin i mean by looking at the charts where the traits are ranked, sites like Bloodmallet and such
keen urchin
those sites just run the same sims as you with "generic" gear
it's completely normal you don't get the exact same results
maiden arch
yet the difference on Sharpened blades is the one that's confusing to me
keen urchin
(honestly imo those sites are useless and shouldn't be recommended)
maiden arch
it shows that having 1 trait is a pretty good upgrade, since the 1st trait stacking chart its pretty large, but when actually simming
it recommends the stats trait by quite a bit
keen urchin
then use the stats trait
verbal nimbus
^
keen urchin
could be a lot of parameters that change the effectiveness of traits
maiden arch
by quite a bit i mean 0.9% hehe
yeah, and i guess on multiple target scenarios the stats one will gain even more ground
keen urchin
ye
verbal nimbus
and is easier to play so your margin for error drops
silk jolt
yeah no array
verbal nimbus
most patchwerk sims have array on in here
spice surge
Those trinkets are pretty......XD
wheat zealot
Trinkets and azerites arent helping ya much
silk jolt
i've run about 30 freeholds
wheat zealot
Buy a fathoms lol
silk jolt
fuck that
pseudo finch
Apparently on PTR some traits are being removed from gear. BM hunters are losing primal instinct and ret pallies are losing their wings trait
maiden arch
farm motherlode then LUL
proud schooner
Imagine losing SS ๐
sturdy python
Yeah they planned to remove some of them
maiden arch
i hope we lose poisoned wire 
sturdy python
Fathoms is so worth it tho
maiden arch
SS on M+ is life, glory, is everything
sturdy python
Ew
proud schooner
Same, DH as well, cause I don't feel like doing another 120 levels
maiden arch
offtopic refering to the trait post above btw, Primal instinct isnt the BiS trait for BM hunters?
that seems such a rip-off
wispy quest
its normal that my assa rog is doing more add damage on mithyc devourer than a ww monk? both adds
pseudo finch
Hard to say tbh, Exsang with SS traits is pretty sweet for devourer
But tonight is the first time we are going onto the the boss so have no exp on it
warm geode
first u need to tell us if is the first 15seg or damage overall
any damage after 15sec is prob a waste
and need make ppl pay more attention to kill before he heals
wispy quest
overall, we kill the first set
warm geode
our mage was top damage at add ( arcane ) but me and pally did most damage inside 15sec window
strange python
Foor the doomwake's trinket, do i activate it few secobds before vendetta or at the same time?
wispy quest
but watching logs i should stick on the big one but actually im the 2ยฐ melee damage on the little ones
pseudo finch
think everyone wants to stick to big one ๐
wispy quest
anyway the monk does like 75% damage than me
and i save trinket+vendetta for the big one
shouldnt the monk be more bursty?
warm geode
u can see at logs if he is dumping cds when is convinient or where is needed(adds)
u can see if he is on top of the add at start when he appears to, or if is taking to long to start doing damage on adds
devout jolt
Raidbots quick sim has me popping GCB before my opening Garrote...is that what I should be doing?
spice surge
Before is pretty silly as it breaks your stealth (and doesnt get subterfuge)
But doing it during the first garrote gcd is fine
quick fog
I hate that Lion's Guile breaks stealth
I do it in first garrote CD like @spice surge said
dull compass
Idk, why wouldnt you want to use gcb esrly, tb doesnt benifit as much as exang does from it
devout jolt
I usually do for max uptime but this rotation given made me really question this
spice surge
with tb you prob want to hold it for tb
warm geode
@devout jolt yeah, u r using tb build, idk what to say
spice surge
But exsang it doesnt matter as long as gcb is up when you cast exsang youre fine
quick fog
You dump a lot of energy early so getting the regen is fine. If you're TB I can't think of a better time to use it. You still get the TB window with it.
But I do think having a GCB makes you change to Exs.
spice surge
Not really, SS traits is the most important factor
devout jolt
all my ss traits are stuck on 340 gear so uldir traits are simming way higher
spice surge
And galecallers is still a really good trinket for tb
quick fog
Does Ven break vanish?
quick fog
So shouldn't we go van ven?
steep obsidian
there is an ss chest in uldir
quick fog
I only have Lion's Guile so I usually precast anyway
hazy sphinx
Are you talking about your opener bud?
quick fog
Yes
quick fog
Yes/no. I'm not running it for ST
onyx raft
Anyone got macro for lvl 90 talent?
hazy sphinx
Can you sim yourself and send me the results?
onyx raft
Aka one in all macro
spice surge
/cast [talent:6/3] Exsanguinate; [talent:6/2] Toxic Blade
ty man ๐
strange python
Is it really that hard using google?
glass vessel
i mean we're here to answer questions
hazy sphinx
That someone didn't mind providing.
glass vessel
get your panties out of a wad lmao
strange python
Which is easily findable
hazy sphinx
Macros are a pain sometimes.
glass vessel
mostly everything in this discord can be "easy to find"
quick fog
I'm not at home Zid and I have on my M+ SS set.
elder copper
Hi guys, right now my Azerite traits are 1x Lazer Matrix +5RA, 1 shrouded sufercation & 1 double dose. I got another piece with SF. would Double dose be better than 2x SF?
quick fog
So I can't switch to my ST set.
quick fog
I've been running MA
elder copper
Yea I guess I could just sim it out
quick fog
For ST
hazy sphinx
Ok, then you open as such (I've been plkaying it lately)
quick fog
I was just wondering why ven before vanish
quick fog
Oh I get that
quick fog
I'm usually g, LG (during cd), mut, rup, mut, ven, van, TB, env
hazy sphinx
LG?
strange python
!ss
quick fog
Lions guile
hazy sphinx
I use trinkets with vendetta.
strange python
where is !ss command?*
glass vessel
no longer here because it got FIXED
hazy sphinx
Guess it works differently for that trinket
strange python
Oh shit rly ๐
glass vessel
yep
hazy sphinx
But I generally get TB when I have 4 points
hazy sphinx
hit 5 with TB and vanish inside vendetta
glass vessel
also got 370 DD chest azerite from emissary last night. my sin woes are over
SS worst trait for m+ lmao
hazy sphinx
and get 2-3 5 point envenoms, the first 2 with the crit buff from MA
glass vessel
it's the best for m+
wheat zealot
The amount of times that question has been asked since ss nerf is just absurd
wheat zealot
quick fog
Yeah yeah. I was just wondering why not van then ven. But it's really only like 1 second less
glass vessel
nice meme
hazy sphinx
YOu dont want to lose that 1 second
true delta
Haste gem over Agi gem?
quick fog
So why cast ven first? Wouldn't Vanish into Vendetta be better? So you dont have a GCD while Ven is up
glass vessel
TTK is a really cool trait. wish they could balance it to where it's strong with deeper strat
but losing vigor :X yikes
would have to be insane
hazy sphinx
You'd waste 1 GCD that could be used to get more points for your empowered envenoms.
During those 3 seconds you need to get a 5 point envenom thats empowered and maybe get another one.
quick fog
I think we're on the same page here I'm just communicating poorly
hazy sphinx
I'm not sure what you are asking me at this point lol
glass vessel
you're maxed out at 2 envenoms within that window, 1 of which would be a 4cp envenom iirc
hazy sphinx
Because Vanish is used within vendetta
glass vessel
van>env>4cp Mut> Env
hazy sphinx
To get that buff on your envenoms
WHat Niko said.
ANd maybe you get lucky in your opener with extra CPs
glass vessel
if you dont get the 4cp mut you just use mut again instead of env
if you use vendetta after vanish you aste that GCD and a chance an extra envenom or mut crits. lots of damage. more than you lose by using vendetta first
strange python
you're wasting 50% crit
hazy sphinx
For one whole second.
Which is a lot during that window.
Because if your Muti crits
You get more CPs
Which means you get yet another juicy envenom.
quick fog
I'm a idiot. Vanish isn't tied to the GCD is it?
strange python
its not
hazy sphinx
No. It's why you can vanish and cloak when shit gets real.
onyx ferry
hi guys, i have a question, i have 2x SS 340 pieces, replaced one with a 355 with double dose, and using bloodmallet replaced the other one with a 340 piece with blightborn infusion. Am i fucking up? Should i keep 1xSS and use exanguinate instead of tb?
strange python
Sim yourself
quick fog
That's why I was getting fucked up. Talking about the order of simultaneous things.
onyx ferry
hehe i did and its higher that way
hazy sphinx
Then there you go.
glass vessel
then you have your answer ๐
onyx ferry
but maybe
glass vessel
if you prefer the playstyle of having 1x SS and its not a huge difference you can just use that, though
quick fog
I was thinking it had a GCD that's why I was ttaking about the order so much. I'm a monkey.
hazy sphinx
Point is, you vanish when you have 5 combo points with TB up on the target
onyx ferry
so you can keep the SS rotation with x1
hazy sphinx
hell yeh
glass vessel
yep
hazy sphinx
TB don't do no dmg. I need to get as much ENVEMOMOMOMOMOM dmg as possible.
glass vessel
G>M>R>Ven>Mut>TB>Van>Env>M(4-5cp)>Env iirc is the MA opener
strange python
But what about opener
glass vessel
something like that
strange python
TB after vanish?
hazy sphinx
so i sneak up on the mother fucker. garrote, bitchs bleeding. hit him with a muti, get lucky. 5 cps. rupture his ear drums. Vendetta plus trinket, he feels moms spaghetti. muti and get 4 points, oh shit. TB, vanish (I john cena the shit out of him) 50 K ENVENOM, muti, 4 points oh shit, 50 K ENVENOM
strange python
Thats what the APl is telling
glass vessel
no dont TB after vanish it's not worth
hazy sphinx
I posted the opener right there in a very easily explained manner.
strange python
then why is APL telling me to tb after vanish
hazy sphinx
You'd lose dmg imo.
glass vessel
idk, its not worth doing
hazy sphinx
TB isn't worth a crit
quick fog
There are two groups of high end sin players. One say TB before, one says TB after
I agree with TB first
quick fog
I want those phatty Envenoms
glass vessel
the difference is very small but if you think about it, TB before make more sense as you're whole focus is to use it for envenoms. you dont want to waste a GCD of MA on TB if you dont ahve to
strange python
Ok quick question : what traits are now preferable in m+ , i see top 1 m+ assa rogue is using : 1xSS 1xArchieve of titans 1xScent of blood
exotic glen
you do vanish > tb > mut > envenom because its more combo points than tb > vanish > envenom > mut > envenom
glass vessel
you want that GCD for mut crits or envenom crits.
exotic glen
you have 3 GCDs in vanish window
glass vessel
1st combo has a max of 5cp
hazy sphinx
and igve you 4 points
strange python
Yeah thats what the APL is telling me as well Cargo
hazy sphinx
minimum
glass vessel
second has a maximum use of 9 if played right
hazy sphinx
Calm your damn tits.
glass vessel
1st combo has maximum usage of 4cp. second has a maximum usage of 9
exotic glen
you're fucked
glass vessel
1st if max usage of 5**
hazy sphinx
Just muti again, you'll get a 5 CP envenom anyways?
exotic glen
yeah but your envenom wont be MA enhanced then
glass vessel
you still get 1 MA envenom anyways? best case scenario you get a MA 4cp Env
glass vessel
if yo vanish with 5cp you Van>env>Mut>Env. if that mut double crits you get another 4cp env off within the window
hazy sphinx
vanish, envenom, muti envenom if i have 4 or muti again.
exotic glen
i know exactly what you are talking about
but im saying that what you probably remember from legion
is most likely wrong now
hazy sphinx
Listen here u inbred.
glass vessel
chill lmao
exotic glen
you wanna have a go
hazy sphinx
The point is, I'll go for a higher chance of damage.
I'll kick that dog in your picture.
strange python
Rank 1 fetid sin with TB uses TB after vanish https://gyazo.com/b7d967a3370bc14be21b804c7d43192b
case closed
hazy sphinx
I swear on me mum
exotic glen
higher chance of dmg is also more inconsistent
hazy sphinx
Need moar data.
wicked comet
majority of high logs are tbing after vanish
exotic glen
so you are actively telling people to play a more inconsistent playstyle
exotic glen
my dog will fucking bit you in the nuts zid
glass vessel
if oyu're running decent crit those muts each have a 70-75% chance to crit, not including other variables
exotic glen
thats still not 100%
at some point
you will get 3 CP from that mut
and you will hate your life because you could envenom with MA up
but you wont
glass vessel
and you can just mut again with another env and it will still be within the TB window
exotic glen
it will be within the TB window
glass vessel
we already got 1 5cp env off withint he MA window ya goof
glass vessel
same as yours but a chance at getting another 4cp one off within MA after
i think that's the disconnect. you have a chance at getting 2 big env's off instead of 1. 70% chance at that.
yours guarantees one. ours does too. also with a chance at getting a second one. its not inconsistent
exotic glen
"hey guys the apl is wrong"
oh thats cool, got any data on that?
"nah its just my feelycraft"
exotic glen
not saying its perfect ffs
hazy sphinx
There is data to prove what he's saying
glass vessel
its not feelycraft. its common sense.
hazy sphinx
The top 10 aren't all TBing inside the vanish
glass vessel
yours guarantees 1, and only 12, env in the MA window
hazy sphinx
Top 100 for that matter to give more data points.
glass vessel
only 1*
exotic glen
then post your big find in #tc-research
glass vessel
ours gives a 70%+ chance at 2
fallow estuary
hazy sphinx
I hope you stub your pinky toe today Cargo.
exotic glen
i bet you will recieve nobel prize
hazy sphinx
Hey. Don;t kill my dream.
exotic glen
i fucking stubbed my toe on purpose when i opened this chat
glass vessel
your whole argument is envenom in the MA window. yours gives 1, our gives 1 with 70% chance at a second one. there's not much more to it than that.
strange python
Top 3 Taloc mythic https://gyazo.com/3eecf585e59d93cec57a17981df699b5
If only sin wasnt so cancery for m+ playstyle wise
exotic glen
do you fucking think im just not gonna use that last gcd at all niko?
strange python
Tab rapturing every pack is zzzzz
exotic glen
do you think i just wait in the MA window
glass vessel
i do, but your argument the whole time has been about the envenom in the MA window
lmao
exotic glen
yeah but your envenom has a chance of happening
glass vessel
no, our first is guaranteed
exotic glen
where what im saying is extremely consistent
glass vessel
our second is 70%+ chance
hazy sphinx
Our second is the only contested one
exotic glen
i know
glass vessel
we vanish with 5cp ya goofball
exotic glen
i know
strange python
Top 2 mother https://gyazo.com/5529169ab816d120348c44bc2485180f
glass vessel
so how is 1+70% for 2 a bad thing vs. only 1
exotic glen
because you think
envenom is the only spell in this game that does damage?
for fuck sake
quick fog
For the window it's the best though
spice surge
๐ค You either vanish with 4-5 CP and tb>evenom>muti or at 0-2 and mut>tb>envenom
If you feel like anything else is better feel free to edit simc apl
hushed maple
Damn 1 sec delay between Multilate and rupture....seems slow
hollow stone
So on opener you tb after van for cd reasons but after opener on the subsequent vans you tb before the van
Just to be clear
hazy sphinx
What CD reasons
glass vessel
that last link was horrible lmao van mut TB rupture wut
hollow stone
Huge deeps
round wadi
Is it low?
glass vessel
if you TB earlier (before van) on the opener that's the 1sec you're talking about?
hollow stone
๐ฎ
glass vessel
i mean you can fuck up as a top player
strange python
You can still see that he uses tb after vanish
exotic glen
i gotta agree here, that rupture was misplaced
hollow stone
If opener is: g m r vend, then you go into it w 0cp so you should van tb m env. Is my understanding
hushed maple
Hey guys I have an important question for you: I have 3 pieces of Double Dose available. I have 1x SS on Shoulders and 1x archive on shoulders....What should I use
exotic glen
for what purpose tho
hollow stone
To prove that youre arguing just to argue cause i said the same thing you did and youre still@made ๐
Mad
hazy sphinx
Ok Apple that makes sense, but, that doesnt really give you the chance of getting 2 empowered envenoms.
hushed maple
Is kinda*
hazy sphinx
AFter I come out of that, like you said at 0 points
I muti, until 4 points, TB, vanish envenom muti and depending on points muti or envenom
hollow stone
Yea. I agree, i like the tb pre van for the chance of env m env but its tricky to set up on the opener based on my experience
Yea. Ive done that too, feels smooth
hazy sphinx
You are in vendetta, trinkets rolling, it's smooth
smoky moth
is the garrote bug still a thing?
hazy sphinx
no
hushed maple
You Vanish for Envenom?!?
glass vessel
@smoky moth nope!
alpine bison
MP only works on weapon poisons yea? ( not in game atm )