assassination

[marble hemlock]

would you like to keep a player like that around by making it so you cannot acquire bis anymore?

[lone junco]

We had priest in vanilla. Sold then reclaimed.

[sharp nova]

Lol toxic kid

[marble hemlock]

or would you rather see someone like that gone for good, with the remaining players being the ones that while having bis, are happy to help their friends and guildies to acquire the same

[lone junco]

1200$

[marble hemlock]

the community would certainly be a better one if those toxic idiots actualyl left and what remained was people who are happy to work together as a unit and help each other out

[hazy sphinx]

Seli there are time constraints and goals. Most people would rather get their gear clear the content and then take a break.

[marble hemlock]

just one mans opinion

[magic zenith]

Ok, but that's not the point.

[balmy cradle]

I mean i still have fun trying to push keys and keep up with people like seli or speed but why every lootsystem has to be full slotmachine i never understood

[sharp nova]

How to be Zid:

run out of arguments
insult others who dont agree with you

N1 mate

[hazy sphinx]

90% of ppl can't just play this game for 15 years straight

When have I insulted you.

[signal salmon]

! Ss

[marble hemlock]

well, then youre a shitty person if you dont give a shit about the rest of your raidteam helping you reach your goal, while they still havent hit their, and then you (or that hypothetical person) just quits anyway

[sand whale]

or they move on to alts like my casual side guild

[fossil agate]

The point is people who "get bis and quit" want to quit anyway and are only sticking around for the carrot

[signal salmon]

!ss

[sand whale]

they get gear, never touch that toon again, move on to an alt

rinse and repeat

[wise whale]

they should put out new raids every 3months problem solved

[lilac tapir]

Blizz too lazy for that

[hazy sphinx]

How much time seli, what's the time you are allowed to stop

[sharp nova]

Probably not mid tier lmao

[marble hemlock]

thats entirely up to you, but if your goal is to get bis in every slot, you better damn well realize that in order to do that you need 19 other people who share that goal, and just because you hit yours doesnt mean youre free to do whatever you want

[lilac tapir]

it does if you are selfish

[marble hemlock]

well, obviously you can do that, but youre not someone id like in my raid then

[lilac tapir]

but I agree with you Seli

[hazy sphinx]

Have you been in a raid group with 19 other like minded people?

[marble hemlock]

yes

[wheat zealot]

Then you better find a new raid team next tier

[magic zenith]

But the debate wasn't about quality of people, it was if this thing happens or not.

[wheat zealot]

🤷

[lilac tapir]

Zid is sounding very cynical tonight haha

[hazy sphinx]

I meant right now. Are you in one?

[magic zenith]

and I'm not saying it's rampant, but it did happen then, and it does happen now.

People set personal goals. Hit them, and quit.

[marble hemlock]

all the guilds ive been in since TBC realized that its important to farm, even if the content is clear, even if they got their bis

[magic zenith]

Gear can be a goal like that.

[lone junco]

Zid. Take a time out. Go take a shit or something.

[balmy cradle]

Thats why i dont raid myth. I would only go for loot in there i actually just want to play m+ and abusing a guild for loot feels lame

[hazy sphinx]

I already wiped.

[marble hemlock]

and all the guilds ive been in realized that the wellbeing of the guild is more important than the wellbeing of any individual in that guild

[fossil agate]

"Nobody" isnt being used literally certainly a few thousand of millions of subs will quit after only sticking around fot gear, but catering to keeping those people only hurts everyone else

[hazy sphinx]

Feel like I'm talking to a 1% talking about getting taxed too much

[ripe nimbus]

This is turning into some off topic shit

[marble hemlock]

obviously theres always a few people that still try to get as much out of it as possible, and hurt the guild and/or other people in that guild by doing so, but guess what. those people dont stick around either way.

yeah

gotta talk about assa real quick

[fossil agate]

Im far from 1%, havnt been there since WotlK

[marble hemlock]

before richard comes in and destroys the fun, like the fun-destroyer he is

[hazy sphinx]

Fine. Seli what's ur favorite dungeon

[marble hemlock]

in bfa?

underrot probably

[hazy sphinx]

For m+

Care to share some stealth starts for shroud

Strats

[marble hemlock]

in underrot?

just shroud first part

entirely

[hazy sphinx]

Anywhere.

[haughty lily]

Do you prio rup over CT?

[marble hemlock]

hm

[hazy sphinx]

Do you put cereal first and then milk?

[torn bear]

How often do you run PB? if at all
?

[marble hemlock]

generally you try to shroud to get the first bloodlust as soon as possible

or skip shitty-ass trash

[fossil agate]

What kind of degenerate puts milk first

[balmy cradle]

@marble hemlock will you push kings rest this id?

[marble hemlock]

so underrot: shroud to first boss, pop BL, keep going.

freehold: shroud to first boss etc.

no idea zimqq

[hazy sphinx]

Valuun does Zulim

[marble hemlock]

not sure if anyone really wants to push this week

bolstering is horrible

[hazy sphinx]

Your definition of push is different than most

[marble hemlock]

with how the trash in most dungeons is deigned

[balmy cradle]

Yeah feels like tyrannical is push week for sure idk

[sharp nova]

Zid, protip, grow up

[hazy sphinx]

Most just wanna time some 13s

[marble hemlock]

its not about tyra vs forti, its about trash having uneven health in almost every dungeon

[wheat zealot]

What dungeon is the easiest in your opinion? @marble hemlock

[fossil agate]

Just wanna time some 10s lol

[marble hemlock]

compared to legion, where you generally only had 1-3 pulls per dungeon where you had to make sure not to kill low-hp mobs too quickly, in bfa thats basically a thing for every single pull

[wheat zealot]

Depends on affix of course, but overall

[balmy cradle]

Just for my group at least

[marble hemlock]

which isnt really difficult or hard, its just annoying having to play around it every time

[hazy sphinx]

Seli Q&A

[balmy cradle]

Sub wont help much or? My group wants me to try with sub

[marble hemlock]

which makes this a very unfun week for a lot of people

sub is definitely very good this week

[hazy sphinx]

If you have horrible luck and can't get a dagger for your off hand

Which dungeon would you farm

[wheat zealot]

Freehold or shrine, farm trink and dagger at the same time

[hazy sphinx]

Shrine. Ew

[dark token]

Freehold, shrine, or Kings rest***

[hazy sphinx]

Sucks this week.

[wheat zealot]

Its doable

[marble hemlock]

REEE discord dying

[hazy sphinx]

I know. But it sucks.

[wheat zealot]

Just gotta be careful bolstering mini bosses

[dark token]

I just ran it 13x this week alone for galecallers 370

[hazy sphinx]

Like putting milk before cereal

[marble hemlock]

well, OH dagger really doesnt matter

[dark token]

Literally only hard part is group mongo minibosses

[marble hemlock]

its just a stat-stick

so probably underrot or tol dagor

[wheat zealot]

Gotta cc the small adds around mini bosses

[dark token]

Ima be honest

[hazy sphinx]

I'm just gonna continue pushing in pvp and get 385s there

[wheat zealot]

But people just REEE

[marble hemlock]

yeah, pvp is a great way to gear

[hazy sphinx]

Almost there anyways

[dark token]

If the group Mongo's the miniboss after I say not to

[strange python]

How hard is freehold this week?

[dark token]

I just leave the key

[marble hemlock]

now that they removed the secondary-stat limitations and you can get mastery+crit items for example

freehold is always easy

[dark token]

It's dead anyway

[marble hemlock]

probably one if, if not the easiest dungeon

[hazy sphinx]

Seli I have every single trinket.

370+

[strange python]

I always found waycrest easy on fortified

[hazy sphinx]

Idea trinkets for m+

[wheat zealot]

Do u have every single one at 400?

[marble hemlock]

galecaller+spyglass for forti, galecaller+dice for tyra

[dark token]

Then this week farm Kings rest

[wheat zealot]

Then you can quit game amirite

[hazy sphinx]

Nah 370-380

[wheat zealot]

Lul

[balmy cradle]

Well except mister first boss only targets u as rogue feelsbadman

[hazy sphinx]

Not until I get daggers

[fossil agate]

Still no galecallers, die, or spyglass. Cause rng feelsgoodman

[marble hemlock]

kingsrest drops daggers 😉

[dark token]

It's the easiest dungeon with the bis stat dagger

Happens to have a nice trinket too

[lilac tapir]

I got a 395 Spyglass and 370 Socket Galecallers

😃

[marble hemlock]

i just want

355 SS

im not even asking for 370 or 385

just 355 :((

[lilac tapir]

where u gonna get those xd

[marble hemlock]

idk

[dark token]

Raid, m+ cache

[marble hemlock]

im gonna hack the mainframe and get me some

[lone junco]

I have hat and chest 370ss. just the shoulder giving me trouble

[torn bear]

does the conquest shoulders offer ss?

[lilac tapir]

your only shot is the Fetid chest, and M+ caches

[hazy sphinx]

Next week from emissary

[marble hemlock]

i got 385 SS chest from weekly

[balmy cradle]

Got 385ss head ez clap 🤔

[marble hemlock]

so chest isnt the issue

[lilac tapir]

is emissary loot changing next week? or 8.1?

[marble hemlock]

(i also couldve just gotten one from fetid, obviously, which is why i got upset when i got it from weekly instead)

[hazy sphinx]

Probably soon tm

[lilac tapir]

i gotcha Seli

[torn bear]

they said they want to change before 8.1 but they don't have a time frame yet.

[spice surge]

Next week or the week after that

[lilac tapir]

I got a Scent of Blood 385 chest but I use the fetid chest at 355 ilvl 😦

[hazy sphinx]

I have sent 385 shoulders

[lone junco]

i am about ready for 2ss 1scent tbh

[hazy sphinx]

Use archive 370s instead

[lone junco]

gives me something to do.

[lilac tapir]

for what keys though Zid

[marble hemlock]

like

[lilac tapir]

I only really do 8-10s cause I basically only pug

[marble hemlock]

i actually cant really complain

[lilac tapir]

I am on a shit server and my guild is bad

[marble hemlock]

got 385 shoulders from zul this week, and 385 scent helmet from weekly

so i could run 2x385 scent and 385SS

but scent sucks this week 😦

[lilac tapir]

cause of bolster?

[marble hemlock]

yeah

[hazy sphinx]

I ain't got time for that. I use the same shit for everything. I run 12+s

[marble hemlock]

you dont pull big

[strange python]

You do max 4-5 packs

this week

[marble hemlock]

any non-bolster forti week with scent of blood is gonna be giga

[lilac tapir]

yea, the CC'ing mobs has been fucking me

[marble hemlock]

just be glad youre a rogue

[lilac tapir]

cause I cant restealth on sapped stuff

[hazy sphinx]

Gotta CC the ghunnies

[marble hemlock]

can CC targets without them bolstering

even if you kill mobs right next to it

might just be the meta for this week

[hazy sphinx]

Freehold has been my favorite

[lilac tapir]

blind and sap right? my groups always AoE like dumbasses

[marble hemlock]

DH+rogue, imprison+sap and kill mobs close to the CC so you dont have to worry about bolstering

nah

[lilac tapir]

I need to find a better group

[marble hemlock]

blind doesnt work

[lilac tapir]

cause blind puts u in combat right

[hazy sphinx]

Don't blind man

It comes back to haunt yiy

[marble hemlock]

only CC that you could walk through without getting into combat

so icetrap, sap, imprison

[hazy sphinx]

Or laser matrix

So you can pull the whole dungeon

[lilac tapir]

poly puts you in combat right

[marble hemlock]

those work, since the mob doesnt get into combat with you until after the CC expires

yeah its basically about whether the mob gets in combat with you when you pull the mobs its linked to, or when the CC expires

[native topaz]

Ice trap gets u in combat if u walk by it

[marble hemlock]

with poly, blind etc. it instantly gets in combat

with sap it doesnt

ah okay, good to know armok

[lilac tapir]

you obviously just hold CT then if you sap a mob near you, right?

[marble hemlock]

i knew that poly, blind and paralysis didnt work

[lilac tapir]

and the dps loss isnt that bad?

[strange python]

Is the SS bug fix live on EU ?

[lilac tapir]

cuase you just spread ruptures

[marble hemlock]

i mean, you just pull the rest away a little bit

but you dont have to pull them away 30+yards like we used to do in legion

[balmy cradle]

I think monk paralyze did work even when the mob was in combat tho

[lilac tapir]

how many combo poitns should I be aiming for with my CTs and how many mobs do I need to be using CT instead of just spreading ruptures?

[hazy sphinx]

Back in my day that monk ability was spammable

[marble hemlock]

but yeah, its just a nice QoL thing for rogue this week

cc infest, and dont have to drag the rest >30y away to avoid bolstering

[sharp nova]

In legion, if unuse frost trap you needed to pass last and then just fdeath. And you’re out of combat

So i guess u can use it now as well

[marble hemlock]

that still works valuur

[sharp nova]

Just with a bit of coordination

[marble hemlock]

but it wont work for avoiding bolster stacks

[hazy sphinx]

30yrd is the bolster range?

[marble hemlock]

so i guess its only DH and rogue

yup

[hazy sphinx]

My tank uses repentance

[balmy cradle]

Yay having dh tank is paying off xD

[strange python]

!ss

[hazy sphinx]

But usually on something we gonna kill

[spice surge]

If you have the mob MCed it also doesnt get stacks

[hazy sphinx]

Haven't tested the combat thing

[marble hemlock]

yup, MC also works

but sap will do fine for most pulls

[sharp nova]

Kill the pack, move on,, wait for bolster to reset, and pull it with other pack

If dungeon allows it

Im guessing jt can be done in some cases

[lilac tapir]

should I be spamming Fan of Knives until 5 combo points to refresh CT on larger packs, and just mostly avoid rupturing unless there is a priority target?

[ebon garden]

Do i use 340 SS over 370 SoB?

[grizzled harness]

!ss

Did they really fixed it?

[strange python]

Yes

[spice surge]

Check hotfixes/pins

Yes

[hazy sphinx]

Fan of knives spam? I just focus targets down.

[grizzled harness]

Mygod

[hazy sphinx]

Get em all close in health and stuff

[grizzled harness]

It's a good day.

[balmy cradle]

@marble hemlock atm im full haste/crit equipped due to raid and ilvl items. How much will a crit/mastery equip give me as like a boost on dmg? Still clearing 16s and stuff and never had an issue doing dmg btw

[lone junco]

@marble hemlock Btw. That 4th garrote I was talking about came in around the 0:09s mark when I tabbed around for ruptures. The energy feed is absurd.

[marble hemlock]

priorities for aoe are
1 - generate enough energy to utilize 1sec GCD (usually 4-5ruptures, less if garrotes are running)
2 - maintain CT debuff
3 - maintian envenom buff

you can usually combine 1 and 2

[lone junco]

Nvm. We an talk later. You are busy.

[marble hemlock]

@lavish grove something like 1-2k overall maybe

[balmy cradle]

Or rather would you skip all haste like we did in legion?

[marble hemlock]

not even that much

its not like mastery is super bad for singletarget, or haste superbad for aoe, its just that they basically swap positions

[lilac tapir]

you guys are crazy (in a good way) with how serious you guys theory craft this stuff, I seriously respect it. and thanks for the help

[spice surge]

Tbh as long as you avoid vers your gear is really good

[marble hemlock]

but 1k mastery instead of 1k haste will not lower your ST by more than maybe 500dps, and wont boost aoe by more than maybe 1-2k

[spice surge]

And some dungeons have more ST, some have more AoE

[grizzled harness]

Theorically you should drop all haste

[marble hemlock]

and yeah noobe, i think its more feasible now to add garrote in as a 5th CP early into the rotiation, but on bigger aoe pulls both fok and rupture/ct still have higher DpE than garrote

[limber dew]

!ss

[lilac tapir]

fixed it

checked pins

[limber dew]

sick

😄

just did

[lilac tapir]

😃

[grizzled harness]

No one is believing it ahah

[lilac tapir]

its amazing

doesn't really change rotation that much I feel like, but just makes it so much easier to manage garrotes

[long sandal]

what is amazing is how long it took to fix

[grizzled harness]

We were losing hope

[lilac tapir]

im more amazed they fixed it at all

tbh

with what we have seen from Blizz this expac so far

[pearl meteor]

^

lol

[marble hemlock]

it doesnt really change much, its just that now you wont feel bad for accidentally hitting that 3rd garrote outside of subterfuge

[pearl meteor]

mhm

[obsidian ridge]

!ss

is it truly over?

[pearl meteor]

ye

[obsidian ridge]

i came a little.

[marble hemlock]

also means you can no longer garrote mid pull, wait 4seconds, then vanish+triple garrote 3 other targets to get 4xSS garrotes 😦

[dark token]

???

[marble hemlock]

the SS bug worked both ways

if you had 1 garrote running, then vanished and applied more Subterfuge+SS garrotes, the SS bonus would apply retroactively to the one non-stealth garrote

but its all over now

so good riddance

[obsidian ridge]

that may be sad for you, but me, the casual pleb, didnt even know this existed 😛

[lilac tapir]

nor I

[vast berry]

i miss the SS bug 😦

[lilac tapir]

LOL

[marble hemlock]

nah, its not something you really played around

[subtle tundra]

did they fix it?

!ss

[marble hemlock]

and i definitely fucked up more pulls by accidentally casting the 3rd garrote too late

[lilac tapir]

hotfixed

[marble hemlock]

than using it to get a slight damage increase midpull

[lilac tapir]

do you guys like my new profile pic btw

[long sandal]

yeah if you lag for a second

ur fucked

[pearl meteor]

just dont lag

[lilac tapir]

[wheat zealot]

[obsidian ridge]

4Head

[marble hemlock]

its usually just mobs not being where theyre supposed to, and then youre out of range for a second :<

[obsidian ridge]

getting garrote on the 3 highest priority targets so you can vendetta/exsang one of them and NOT messing up in the subterfuge window is sometimes too hard so the bug gone = big win for me. Happened twice a dungeon at least

[hazy sphinx]

Seli what about your vendetta usage

[pearl meteor]

think u needa practice using garrote bud

[hazy sphinx]

in dungeons

[pearl meteor]

lmao

[hazy sphinx]

on CD?

[tawdry breach]

i can't believe it, SS bug fixed. what year is it?

[reef frigate]

2018

[lone junco]

good answer

[quartz escarp]

!wa

[prisma monolith]

Assassination WA's for BFA:
https://wago.io/HJUbINlV7 (Mizerok's Group)
https://wago.io/E1EB91OtM (Lokkek's Group)
https://wago.io/SyLUNGD4X (Sovv's Group)
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)

[obsidian finch]

So the general consensus on the SS hotfix. Good or bad?

[tawdry breach]

good

[craggy helm]

How could it be bad?

[tawdry breach]

you should no longer feel the urge to cry after applying that fourth garrote while the other 3 SS buffed garrotes are still ticking

[obsidian finch]

Bad if it was a good exploit, good if it increased our overall dps

Got it

I understand it now

[ebon garden]

should i use a 370 Archive/SoB or 340 SS in dungeons?

[river quarry]

How much mastery roughly to make crimson viable?

[lilac tapir]

on bolstering I think its pretty much the go-to

[wheat zealot]

You dont need mastery for it to be viable

[hollow cloud]

It took 3 nerfs to fix the SS bug

it was all intended

to balance our SS damage in dungs

[river quarry]

do you bother to stack mastery for it or not @wheat zealot

and like. when do you use it exactly for best dmg? thonk

[ebon garden]

i mean, you already stack Crit/mast for dungeons as much as possible

[wheat zealot]

I stack crit/mastery for m+, yes. But its not gonna make a huge difference if you dont

Theres many other things that will make much more of a difference

[river quarry]

and as for utilising crimson

best time to open? garrote 3 then 5cp>crim?

[wheat zealot]

Yessir

Then get a rupture out and exsan (if talented) get your ruptures out on elites and if 6+ targets spam crimson > envenom, otherwise just maintain ct and keep at least 3 ruptures out and envenom spam when you can

[devout wharf]

!wa

[prisma monolith]

Assassination WA's for BFA:
https://wago.io/HJUbINlV7 (Mizerok's Group)
https://wago.io/E1EB91OtM (Lokkek's Group)
https://wago.io/SyLUNGD4X (Sovv's Group)
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)

[main rain]

Did they buff Doom's wake? why is it simming that high now

[wheat zealot]

Yes they did

[main rain]

Kek, how did I miss that

[spice surge]

What? When did they buff it? Any notes?

Unless they stealth buffed it

[wheat zealot]

Couple says ago, lots of people in here were talking about it

Type doom's wake in the channel search bar and you should find some of the discussion

[primal moss]

Can someone explain why assassination is the go to spdc for dungeons?

[strange python]

!azerite

[prisma monolith]

Do my azerite traits stack?
The damage part of azerite Stacks.
Other components can be assumed to stack however with some exceptions and limitations.
You can check https://www.herodamage.com/rogue/azerite-stacks/1t-t22-assassination for estimations.

[weary cave]

Master Poisoner better than EP for AoE situations like in M dungeons?

I wasn't aware you could sim a dungeon run, just asking for the general consensus

[strange python]

Patchwork 6 bosses 40 sec

No buffs

[ebon garden]

you take Master Poisoner if you need the extra utility of the slow mostly

not exactly for the damage AFAIK

[strange python]

!darkmoon

🤔 rip command

[cold meteor]

god bless the darkmoon deck fix

[next grotto]

Fix?

[cold meteor]

Was painful when I seen the anchor slowly fall on the guy I blinded

until today, it use to proc on non damage abilities

[next grotto]

Uhh, ty

[primal moss]

Can someone explain why assassination is the go to spdc for dungeons?

[sullen pagoda]

it does more damage

[subtle tundra]

outlaw does more aoe if you dont have 3xss

[sullen pagoda]

i wouldnt say so

its viable with 1 SS too

[ebon garden]

it has good AoE and ST, with a slow from crippling poison allowing your tank to kite very well

[fathom lynx]

!ss

[ebon garden]

fixed

[fathom lynx]

Aww yeeah

[cinder lotus]

where it says its fixed?

[mortal warren]

mmo-champion front page/bluepost tracker todays hotfixes

[cinder lotus]

ohh today

[primal moss]

What's SS?

[cinder lotus]

makes sense i just wake up

@primal moss Shrouded Suffocation

took them 3 nerf to fix it, betablizzard

[arctic lake]

God bless SS

[primal moss]

Doesn't that only work basically once or twice a fight?

[zenith cedar]

Fixed a bug causing the bonus damage from Shrouded Suffocation to fall off if the rogue used Garrote on another target.

WERE BACK BOYS

SS FOREVER

[cinder lotus]

3SS and dont look back

:kappa:

[zenith cedar]

tbh its still so good lol

[arctic lake]

@primal moss sure, for raids. SS is god tier for m+

[zenith cedar]

SS is absolutely nutty for m+

[primal moss]

Ah

[cinder lotus]

SS + CT kicking it

[arctic lake]

you can check out #tc-update pins for a link on how to sim it for m+ :)

[zenith cedar]

U put up x4 SS garrotes every pull and can basically afk after that and be top dps

its amazing

[cinder lotus]

lol yeah

[arctic lake]

I mean, you're not wrong

[zenith cedar]

I do enjoy that they have tuned azerite traits in such a way that in the majority of cases ILVL is more important than trait

[cinder lotus]

do u guys apply rup aswell for example in a pull of 4 mobs?

[zenith cedar]

It feels much more natural even if we had to get some of our OP traits nerfed to reach that goal

[primal moss]

That makes sense honestly lol. Main reason I'm looking is my sdcondaries are perfect for sin, and I now have 2 archive of the titans and 1 garbage trait for sin and sub, but can farm that to replace it

[zenith cedar]

Yes you want ruptures up for venomous wounds energy

[cinder lotus]

True

[zenith cedar]

I will either FOK and rupture everything or just mut each target x1 or x2 and apply rupture

ideally you just focus on rolling your bleeds and dont worry about much else 4+ targets

if you can pool energy for an enveom and then sppam fok, that's great, but your focus is the bleeds

[wheat zealot]

6+ targets spam ct > envenom

[zenith cedar]

I haven't experimented much with CT personally but I understand it's a strong option

[arctic lake]

@cinder lotus I would suggest watching Incarnated on Twitch if you want examples of sin m+ :)

Should answer most of your questions

[zenith cedar]

I find Poison Bomb to be strong enough that the convinence of a passive skill outweighs the small dps increase

[wheat zealot]

Usually does about 10% of my overall damage, where as pb does <5%

Usually around 2 or 3

[glass vessel]

crimson tempest isnt small lol

[zenith cedar]

5% is a large enough increase that I would use it

[neon cedar]

But PB is better on ST obviously

[zenith cedar]

Is that strictly 6+ ?

[wheat zealot]

To spam it yeah

[high siren]

small dps increase :<

[glass vessel]

PB pure ST is about ~2-3% of dmg

[zenith cedar]

Or are you seeing a 5-7% increase on 4+ too?

[wheat zealot]

Overall dungeon

[marble hemlock]

CT comes with some opportunity cost though, so even if it deals 10% damage, its not a flat 10% increase since you couldve used other spells instead

[zenith cedar]

Ah

[marble hemlock]

but for most dungeons its worth running CT, yes

[glass vessel]

also PB on pulls also relies on tanks not moving conwstantly, which they do depending on the affixes

[zenith cedar]

Tyrannical weeks may also skew the weight of Poison bomb

as often the trash is not really the issue on those weeks

[arctic lake]

speaking of Incarnated...

[wheat zealot]

Always keep ct up on 2+ targets is the rule, use ct in place on envenom on 6+

[cinder lotus]

man now i need to keep farming SS helm from SOS >.<

[marble hemlock]

sshhhh

[glass vessel]

yea for tyrannical PB is good, i personally run PB on tyrannical weeks and use my raid setup

[zenith cedar]

Easiest way to get a 355+ SS is to get teh chest piece from pvp conquest caps

[wheat zealot]

I only use pb on kings rest

[zenith cedar]

I was lucky enough to get a trophy to upgrade ine to 370

[cinder lotus]

i keep getting backs @zenith cedar

and i hate SOS so much

[zenith cedar]

I have like 4 380 cloaks yet im rocking a 370 socketed one

[wheat zealot]

Farming 10 or higher shrines for gcb is the bane of my exsistence

[glass vessel]

same. done like 15 of them, no luck yet

[zenith cedar]

I got a 370 GCD 😉 and a 370 socketed harlans dice

i actually replacd my darkmoon card lol

unbelieveable

[glass vessel]

wont complain too much got a dagger on our second mother kill so im happy about that

[cinder sparrow]

gcd ?

[zenith cedar]

gale callers

[cinder lotus]

you just make me cry @glass vessel

[zenith cedar]

gcb**

I havent really played in two weeks tho

I got all my gear during the first week of m+ 10s

[cinder lotus]

oh i got that one in a single mythic 0 355 not bad

[wheat zealot]

My guilds casual so i just got my first mother kill this week, hopefully ill get the dagger next week

[zenith cedar]

ive just been idling at 372 ilvl since

[glass vessel]

@cinder lotus 385 dagger but still simming 500dps lower in sin than my sub spec due to traits tho :/

[wheat zealot]

Mythic mother that is

[glass vessel]

15.5k @ 371 and a 385 dagger feels bad

[cinder lotus]

@glass vessel 355 - 365 for me, im at 15.5k with 363 ilvl

[zenith cedar]

It's unforaunte that if you dont raid mythics there is very little to do

for gearing up

[wheat zealot]

M+ all day boi

[zenith cedar]

I spammed m+10s and got all my BIS pieces in one week

[wheat zealot]

Ez

[glass vessel]

see, you're 8 ilvls lower simming the same. bad luck on sin traits.

[wheat zealot]

Just nothing to do for az gear

[zenith cedar]

so i really dont have a reason to run m+ other than begging for titanforges and weekly chest

[glass vessel]

sub gets boring at time and i want to play sin but on prog it's pointless to perform worse

[zenith cedar]

I've just started to pvp lol

[wheat zealot]

Sub is definetely more engaging then sin imo

[zenith cedar]

Sin is super fun to play in arenas rn

[glass vessel]

sub is definitely more engaging but once you get it down you can play it in your sleep. i like to change it up x)

[zenith cedar]

Sin is pretty zzz to be fair

[wheat zealot]

^

Very

[zenith cedar]

Exsang requires some setup but if youre playing TB its literally ZZZZZZz

[glass vessel]

it is, but making the best use of exsang and subterfuge on certain fights can be very rewarding

and tricky

[zenith cedar]

Exsang adds alot of dynamic play to the spec IMO

[glass vessel]

vectis is a fun sin fight but as sub it's literally just a single target fight lol

[wheat zealot]

I dont use exsan on prog, but in m+ it is excellent

[zenith cedar]

TB is too consistent to not use for raids imo

[wheat zealot]

Agreed

[glass vessel]

exsang is good for bosses like mother and fetid with %damage taken increase for burst windows

[cinder lotus]

what do u guys think about the new trait?

[zenith cedar]

Exsang is greato n opener but based on DPS timings and add phases it can be total dogshit setting up that second 2 min CDs

[glass vessel]

exasng burst is insane

[wheat zealot]

Yeah i use it for fetid mother and ghuun

[zenith cedar]

ST fight its superb

[wheat zealot]

But im not progressing on any of those rn

On zek

[glass vessel]

but i dont have galecallers and TB is consistent so i use that everywhere else

[zenith cedar]

Mythraxx for example, your CDs come upp and hes going into add phase

[ripe nimbus]

The top parse on fetid is using TB

[zenith cedar]

so u just sit there forever with ur cds up

[neon cedar]

I really hate the fact that you use your vanish almost 10sec after your first opener

and then need it for second burst

with exsangue

it feel so weird

[glass vessel]

TB is by no means bad, but exsang is definitely stronger on that fight overall

[inner pulsar]

ERMG did y'all see they fixed the SS bug ?!?!?!

[neon cedar]

you delay your burst so much 😒

[wheat zealot]

@ripe nimbus are they using subt or ma?

[zenith cedar]

@neon cedar you get used to that

@neon cedar you're not really delaying your burst be cause waiting 10 seconds gives you the maximum potential damage

[neon cedar]

i know

but you delay the second burst

[ripe nimbus]

I parsed rank 6 on fetid last night using TB exsang is the better option if ur on small eggs for sure but really ur raid should put u on mass

[neon cedar]

feel so frustrating to have everything up except vanish, and knowing you need to prevanish your exsangue 😦

[zenith cedar]

it's not delaying, you wouldnt' have the "burst" you'

expect without vanish

vanish IS the burst lol

[neon cedar]

delaying the other cd's i mean :p

[glass vessel]

the sin garrote SS bug finally got hotfixed? 😮

[ripe nimbus]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/aL4WghRTtxpvz9An#fight=4&view=rankings

[glass vessel]

2.5k above the others. asserting dominance lol

[hazy sphinx]

its finally happened.

[glass vessel]

also 2 ele shamans rofl

[neon cedar]

2ele sham lol, i was thinking the same LUL

[hazy sphinx]

Tb is equal to Exsang.

[neon cedar]

i want this chest so bad 😦

[rocky notch]

Same

[tender quail]

guys I'm really sorry for this noobish question, but why I should paired my vanish and vedetta cd ?

I know its noobish but 😦

[cinder lotus]

i just simmed TB and exan - i get 15.827 DPS using TB and 15.850 with exang

minor dif

[glass vessel]

@tender quail with MA, you get that 50% crit buff which is great to spam envenoms after TB, for Subterfurge you get to pandemic your empowered garrote

[tender quail]

ah

I should play MA with TB

makes sense a lot... holy shit

[glass vessel]

you can play subterfuge with TB as well, mainly if you have at least 1 SS trait

[ripe geyser]

How much did the "fix" on SS do to our beloved Assassination?

[tender quail]

@glass vessel I'1m running 2 AotT and 1x SS

[glass vessel]

if it's actually fixed you can get an extra 2 garrotes out without fucking your first 3

[cinder lotus]

^

[glass vessel]

which is huge for energy regen

[rocky notch]

When you don't have vanish it helps a lot on big packs

[glass vessel]

instead of spreading ruptures early you can garrote extra targets and focus on envenom/FoK spam and keeping CT up for the first bit

[hazy sphinx]

ohhhh

im simming even higher with master assassin!

[rocky notch]

And if you swap between so and not so in m+ you won't constantly ruin yourself

Ss/not ss

Rather

[hazy sphinx]

i dont even know the rotation for master assasin, been running subterfurge for forever.

[nimble condor]

is there any cap for haste? i looked throught ladder almost everyone was at 14%

[frosty gyro]

[nimble condor]

what is sim

[frosty gyro]

[quaint flare]

[nimble condor]

yeah there no definition of sim

[nimble condor]

Simming
The act of eating a donut off of a penis

thanks doc

[quaint flare]

[cerulean walrus]

The bait is so real

[opaque grotto]

Rank 1 troll

[cerulean walrus]

Unless they aren't trolling in which case god damn are people stupid

[quaint flare]

🍩

[cerulean walrus]

Hmmmm didn't know this was the Hunter Discord

[quaint flare]

[timid spear]

!ss

[cerulean walrus]

Its fixed @timid spear

[inner pulsar]

Yeah, you don't know around here. There was the guy last week with the name "sim yourself" and he didn't know how to...sim....himself

[timid spear]

ok tks 😉

[quaint flare]

[cerulean walrus]

FeelsSimMan

[vale beacon]

Yo guys . I m new here. My Chars is only 340 geared but my energy gain feels so slow i can sleep while my rotation is that normal ? i always got garrot and rupture up

[cerulean walrus]

You're playing Sin rogue

Pretty normal kappa

[haughty lily]

If you pop rup on other targets and they die you get more energy back

[opaque grotto]

Yeah you can’t just spam abilities constantly

[cerulean walrus]

^

[haughty lily]

Otherwise just kinda slow imo

[cerulean walrus]

Honestly if a mob is about to die, pop that big boy rupture on it and get ALLL the energy in the world

[tender quail]

Guys one more question, should I use deadly on main hand and quick navigation on the second ?

[wheat zealot]

Probably doesnt have poisons on

[cerulean walrus]

Arcanite Rupture! HOOOO!!!!

[tender quail]

or its all about sims and see what is better

x.x

[tribal marlin]

Is there any way I can add a line code in an advanced sim on raidbot ?

[spice surge]

It doesnt matter what hand you use them on

As long as you have both your good

[tender quail]

oh

[inner pulsar]

@wheat zealot Wait, what are poisons?

[cerulean walrus]

It can make a very, very slight difference

[quaint flare]

[cerulean walrus]

but only like 10 dps

[spice surge]

No

[inner pulsar]

@wheat zealot Where do they drop?

[spice surge]

Thats the sim variance coming into play

[wheat zealot]

Idk i play bleed build so i dont use them

[vale beacon]

Jea it feels very sleepy the gain . not like my dh 😄 Elaborate planning is getting off very often

[spice surge]

Its the exact same ingame

[cerulean walrus]

I literally simmed the same weapon with the two enchants and had a 10 dps difference

[spice surge]

Since your weapon speed is the same, and the rppm is the same

Thats the sim variance coming into play

[quaint flare]

[cerulean walrus]

I mean, that's why I said its essentially negligible

🤔

very very slight

[spice surge]

You always get 0.05% error margins (on raidbots)

Thus anything below that is basicly the same

[wheat zealot]

Especially if you have low iterations

Very likely that there will be inconsistency

[quaint flare]

[cerulean walrus]

@quaint flare swooping in with his NiTrO emotes

[quaint flare]

[ripe nimbus]

All the people who think sin rogue is slow need to get more ilvl. I'm like GCD locked as sin 60 APM

[wheat zealot]

If you dont have nitro in 2018 what are you doing with your life

[lofty sand]

what

[inner pulsar]

haha

[quaint flare]

[lofty sand]

how the fuck do you get 20 more apm than the other rogues?

[cerulean walrus]

Because he's an outlul troll lmao

[ripe nimbus]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/aL4WghRTtxpvz9An#fight=4&type=casts

[wheat zealot]

[ripe nimbus]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/rRCcjyMq8L4HBK9a#fight=8&type=casts

[sonic spindle]

All this emote spam, I feel like I’m in a twitch chat

[inner pulsar]

Man, he was ready with that evidence haha

[wheat zealot]

Had them saved on the clipboard

[ripe nimbus]

Had my logs open already lul

[cerulean walrus]

He's gotta whip out that log

[wheat zealot]

[polar prawn]

Hello guys, a quick question, is SS still the best 3 trait for m+ ?

[inner pulsar]

I mean, it does show exactly what he said it would show....

[cerulean walrus]

But yes

[desert vault]

Archive is ok for m+? Got 355 archive, 340 Fan or 340 DD at the moment ...

[cerulean walrus]

It will always be until they day they destroy it

[wheat zealot]

In their minds, they already did

At least i hope lul

[cerulean walrus]

tfw they'll see sin damage shoot up again and nerf SS into the ground

Again...

[wheat zealot]

Give it another 40% boys

[cerulean walrus]

"When you cast garrote, you die. RIP parse -Blizzard"

Cheat death ain't gonna save you now boy

[polar prawn]

x

xd*

ok ty

[inner pulsar]

Nah, I heard Cheat Death was useless last week

[cerulean walrus]

🤔

[inner pulsar]

Yeap

[cerulean walrus]

Its literally the save your ass talent

[inner pulsar]

Thats the convo that was going on in here

[cerulean walrus]

How is that useless?

[inner pulsar]

About how Rogue is shit now compared to other melee

[cerulean walrus]

ROGUES ARE SHIT OMEGALUL!

[wheat zealot]

Comparatively

Yes

[inner pulsar]

Hey man, don't shoot the messenger, just go ahead and reroll

[frosty gyro]

Conparitavely to what?

Frost DK in M Uldir?

[wheat zealot]

DH or arms

Or frost

[quick fog]

DH is just crazy

[strange python]

DH blasts the meters for lulz

[sullen pagoda]

rogue shit

[inner pulsar]

Yeah, but we shit on Enhance, so /flew

[sullen pagoda]

what crack are u smoking i want some

[inner pulsar]

*/flex

[wheat zealot]

I named 3 specs they are shit compared too lol

[quick fog]

DH even has great utility

[cerulean walrus]

They are ass cannons*

[wheat zealot]

Whos gonna bring a rogue over any of those 3 melee to m ghuun

[quick fog]

Aoe stun, purge, imprison

[inner pulsar]

Well, the previous convo centered around utility,

[quick fog]

Rogues aren't glass cannons?

[inner pulsar]

@cerulean walrus Nice edit

[cerulean walrus]

Why thank you

[frosty gyro]

Void elf outlaw rogues 🤔

[wheat zealot]

That dont buff the group

[frosty gyro]

They can solo run orbs

[round harbor]

U bring the geared rogue that you've brought to every previous fight

[wheat zealot]

Warrs and dhs can do the same and have group buffs

[round harbor]

Ez

[wheat zealot]

So why would u bring a rogue instead

[frosty gyro]

What is the DH group buff?

[wheat zealot]

Magic damage

5% more

[frosty gyro]

Also you would bring a rogue because they're in your guild and have really high damage

[inner pulsar]

The premise is essentially "Arms, DH, and WW to an extent bring a buff, and you only bring 4 melee anyway, so Rogue is on the outside"

[frosty gyro]

You do realize anyone doing M G'Huun is going to be in an established guild raid group right?

[wheat zealot]

If you had the option to bring a dh or warrior tho you would bring them instead

Because they are better

[frosty gyro]

I mean you would if you knew they were as good or better than the rogue

There are more factors than class

[quick fog]

They would probably 2x arms dh ww

[inner pulsar]

I think that is more of a melee problem vs a rogue problem, but there you go

[quick fog]

For executes into phase 3

[frosty gyro]

You're talking about a super niche situation

[wheat zealot]

Rogues only really have value over any other melee on zul

[cerulean walrus]

Player skill > Warcraft Logs, there are outliers

[frosty gyro]

Has more to do with the mechanics of one fight

[tribal marlin]

Fixed a bug causing the bonus damage from Shrouded Suffocation to fall off if the rogue used Garrote on another target.

hurrey

[wheat zealot]

Any other fight who gives a shit about a rogue on the team

[tribal marlin]

!ss

[modest zodiac]

Can someone recommend a real time damage done addon?

[frosty gyro]

And also warcraft logs wise there are rogues above other melee on like every fight besides vectis

[modest zodiac]

the one with the texts

[inner pulsar]

Yeah, but that Arms warrior is probably a mouth breathing moron and is dead, whereas I'm alive because of CHEAT MOTHERFUCKING DEATH!

[zenith cedar]

Cheat death is op

so is cloak

[inner pulsar]

@modest zodiac Details

[modest zodiac]

No not like skada or recount

[zenith cedar]

there are fights where you can stagger raid damage with cloak of shadows instead of using raid CDs

i.e. Zul

[modest zodiac]

the scrolling dmg txt

[ripe nimbus]

If u arnt using cheat death to boost dps by not moving during a mechanic ur doing it wrong

Cheat death is for dps

[zenith cedar]

just becaue your rogue got the debuff suddenly your raid has more Cds available

[cerulean walrus]

I can soak so much stuff you might as well call me a Shamwow

[wheat zealot]

Well yeah obviously you bring the better player, i am debating as if all the classes are being played with equal skill.

[cerulean walrus]

and then SHAMPOW them with those omegacrits

[wheat zealot]

And if they were, you bring the dh everytime

[zenith cedar]

just play every top melee class :kapppa:

[wheat zealot]

Unless m zul

[frosty gyro]

So you're debating a useless niche scenario on one fight where the situation you're talking about is almost never going to happen in the first place and when it does happen there are plenty of other factors to consider in reality

Nice

[inner pulsar]

Wait, but what about Feral?

[frosty gyro]

Good use of time

[wheat zealot]

Im talking about the whole raid lol

[cerulean walrus]

@inner pulsar We don't talk about garbage here, we recycle

[wheat zealot]

Dh is better on every fight besides m zul

[zenith cedar]

Rogues are fine

relax

[frosty gyro]

In tohers fights in the raid besides Vectis Rogues are above DH in dps

[neon cedar]

@frosty gyro wait, you dont debate on the internet ? Kappa

[zenith cedar]

Rogues are supper strong in m+ too

I mean basically required

for every single dungeon

[ripe nimbus]

Nah rogues are shit listen to that guy

Go play something else

[neon cedar]

go play warlock :d

[wheat zealot]

Lmao, i play a rogue, but i know we arent the best by far

[inner pulsar]

Alright, now we got some action going on in here, glad I brought this up!

[cerulean walrus]

RoGuEs ArE dEaD!!! ThE GaMe Is DeAd! See you next tuesday

[ripe nimbus]

Guess I'm gonna get sat for M ghuun feels bad

[inner pulsar]

@wheat zealot Well, the statement wasn't that we are best, its that we are shit

[cerulean walrus]

I mean, hey, its what happens when we get weekly nerfs eh? People complain that the class is shit.

[wheat zealot]

And i named 3 melee specs we are shit compared too

[cerulean walrus]

In a vacuum

[inner pulsar]

Which goes back to my original point, I view the problem more of a "Lets bring as few melee as possible" situation

[ripe nimbus]

Man I guess slightly performing under = shit. Fk me I'm shit brb gonna uninstall

[frosty gyro]

"Shit compared to" not really "performing slightly worse on some fights" maybe

[cerulean walrus]

"I'm just going to blindly follow what the logs say about the playerbase rather than a person who I know is capable" 🤔

[frosty gyro]

Also on G'Huun the top sub rogue did more damage to Ghuun than the top FDK

But padding on mobs that don't matter makes DK better I guess

[ripe nimbus]

Hey man i posted my fetid kill and the only thing people said was lul 2 ele shamans even tho those 2 ele shaman players are fking amazing players.

That's just the community

[quick fog]

If you're not the best you're the worst

[wheat zealot]

Those same people will be crying when ele is amazing next tier lol

[inner pulsar]

@quick fog Troof

If you're not first you're last

[wheat zealot]

Wise words @inner pulsar

Lul

[cerulean walrus]

Fact is. I believe its right to trust in a person with reputation rather than wtf logs say about a generalized playerbase

You can have a shit FDK in your guild so you don't take him. Despite the logs stating that they are better

[wheat zealot]

Thats believing opinion over fact

Which i do not do

[inner pulsar]

@cerulean walrus It's the internet, best not to trust anyone

[cerulean walrus]

That's believing RESULTS

[quick fog]

That's believing production over estimated

[cerulean walrus]

Not opinion

[wheat zealot]

Logs are results

[cerulean walrus]

Thank you @quick fog

[quick fog]

But not for your individual

[cerulean walrus]

There are always outliers

[wheat zealot]

Person with reputation = an opinion of one individual

Logs = facts

[frosty gyro]

Logs of top FDKs with good gear and traits =/= how an FDK in your guild plays

[cerulean walrus]

Exactly

[quick fog]

If EVERYONE played at the same skill level sure, but we don't. So I'll take my better player over the better class.

[wheat zealot]

Thats all relative

[cerulean walrus]

That's why logs are retarded

[frosty gyro]

That's the point lol

[cerulean walrus]

They don't show how an individual plays

They show an entire community

[quick fog]

We dont all have access to r1 DK, r1 DH, etc etc. So we go off of our skill levels

[cerulean walrus]

Exactly

This is the point

[frosty gyro]

If you have to pick between 2 pugs for heroic and you don't have logs or achievments from both players to compare the two sure go by class but there are a lot of metricts to directly compare players on many more aspects than their class which will matter far more to success

[wheat zealot]

Well yeah you take the best of what you have, i agreed with that earlier i was saying thereotically if you had access to every class all at equal skill.

[quick fog]

Also I'm not even going to bring up if they do mechanics or not

[cerulean walrus]

Reputation is built on RESULTS. Therefore, they can be more accurate than some random r1 asshole on WClogs

[frosty gyro]

Yeah you're rasing a pointless hypothetical

Arms is shit because I always take the DH

Or something

[ripe nimbus]

My life is a pointless hypothetical

[frosty gyro]

DH is shit because FDK

[cerulean walrus]

Edgy @ripe nimbus

[wheat zealot]

Not really pointless because you can always just recruit that class

[frosty gyro]

Nope

[cerulean walrus]

But you don't know how they play 🤦

[frosty gyro]

That's just wrong

[wheat zealot]

Or have skmeone reroll

[quick fog]

But are they better than what you have? Do they do mechanics?

[cerulean walrus]

You're avoiding the point

[wheat zealot]

You trial them bud

[cerulean walrus]

Or its just going way over your head

[frosty gyro]

Not gonna bother arguing that lol

[quick fog]

I'm not going to waste weeks and weeks recruiting just to get a better class than what we have.

[inner pulsar]

🍿

[cerulean walrus]

But by trialing them you are having them build A REPUTATION omegalul dude

[frosty gyro]

Yeah there's just plenty of orange+ parsing trials of every class on your server than can make tyour raid times sitting around waiting to trial for your guild

[wheat zealot]

What if you are stuck on the same fight for weeks

[ruby idol]

What is happening here

[cerulean walrus]

If they suck, WCLogs is wrong

[wheat zealot]

And you need that class to complete that fight

Then what

[quick fog]

If you're stuck on the same fight for weeks its not about having a certain class

Play better

[ruby idol]

If you're not playing at like top 100-200 level your comp isnt what's holding you back

[frosty gyro]

Every fight besides G'Huun and Zul isn't going to matter nearly as much on needing a class compared to needing good players

[ruby idol]

So this discussion is pointless

[cerulean walrus]

Thank you @ruby idol

End of story ffs

[frosty gyro]

And G'Huun/Zul only need a set amount of dispels/runners

Yeah what Dad said

[cerulean walrus]

Alright its been fun, I gotta get to my Calc class, big brain math incoming

[inner pulsar]

@ruby idol Most discussions in here are pointless btw

[quick fog]

It's frustratingly entertaining at least.

[icy cedar]

!ss

[inner pulsar]

@icy cedar Fixed bro

[ripe nimbus]

Life in general is pointless.

[icy cedar]

ahh! nice, so what's the benefits now?

[quiet spruce]

guys, for M+ it's crit> mastery > vers = haste right

[inner pulsar]

@icy cedar I dont... wut?

[quiet spruce]

so if i go full crit and mastery, i get like 6% haste

should i go that low?

[quick fog]

If you're there for AoE,yes

I dont know about that low

[quiet spruce]

hm okay, ill try some combinations out

[harsh glacier]

Honestly for m+ crit = mastery = haste imo

You need a mix of St and aoe

[quick fog]

You still want to make sure you can fit your GCDs from MA/SUB in with some margin of error so hasting the gcd is probably good

[ruby idol]

6% is fine tho

[quick fog]

I agree with Pro

[icy cedar]

so, we go back to x3 ss for m+ ?

[nova gazelle]

!ss

[harsh glacier]

Was it never not 3x ss? :P

[quick fog]

I found that it depends on how many mobs you are pulling

[twin meadow]

we never left lmao

[ruby idol]

The bug being fixed is useful in like niche cases, you p much play exactly the same

[quick fog]

If you're going slow only pulling a pack at a time, more ST traits like Archive and stuff are better even for AoE. But if you're double pulling like 6 mobs SS does best

[frosty gyro]

I mean more garrote = more dps and more energy regen

[quick fog]

Also if you like the playstyle, go for it. Lower lvl SS just barely underperforms my 385/370 traits

Also Wire is OP

[frosty gyro]

Poisoned wire?

Or the talent

[quick fog]

Talent

[harsh glacier]

Yeah the silence in m+ is amazing

[quick fog]

Wrecked Shrine cause most of the mobs are caster

[harsh glacier]

I think 3x ss falls off the higher keys you do though

[quick fog]

We ran Sin x2 and I would delay my opener to get longer silences

[visual token]

You’re just handing out silences like Oprah

[ruby idol]

I mean look at it this way. Most times where you'd want to apply another garrote before your ss boys fell off anyway is on 4+ mobs, and on pack that size you're better off spreading ruptures anyway

[quick fog]

^ The longer the mobs live the worse for Ss

[harsh glacier]

Yeah I think it becomes less relevant at 12s+

It's still good for me atm at 11s

[quick fog]

When I was checking M+ IO it was a solid split of Double Archive, Rupture trait and 3x SS

[harsh glacier]

Ss also worthless St for tyrannical weeks

[frosty gyro]

@ruby idol I mean garrote is higher DPS than rupture and is a CP generator instead of costing 4+ CP for the equivalent

[velvet kernel]

I'm one day late to the party

But YES

FINALLY

[frosty gyro]

SS isn't that bad ST not as OP as it used to be but still decent

[harsh glacier]

It's ok, but it's not double dose

[ruby idol]

So on 4+ mobs you're dropping a random garrote for 1 cp instead of foking for rupture spread and ct/envenom?

[quick fog]

I'm currently on Archive 2x and Sharpen with TB

[ruby idol]

[frosty gyro]

I think you go ggg>ct>g>r>fok>r>etc

or ct>g>fok>r

[inner pulsar]

Nope, its G>G>G>RUP>G>G /lay

[frosty gyro]

Remember that Garrote with no SS or subterfuge is like the equivalent of a 4cp rupture

what?

4th g goes on cd

[quick fog]

???

[ruby idol]

Only time I'd g on a big pack after opener is either with vanish, or to push a 4cp fok up to 5 before finisher

[frosty gyro]

That makes no sense

[harsh glacier]

I would open with ggg just to get the silences out tbh

[ruby idol]

I'm not following spending a gcd on 1 cp in aoe situations

[quick fog]

The ST is so high that it's fine to not be AoE

[frosty gyro]

Because it's slightly more damage than a 4cp rupture

[ruby idol]

Like theres more to the class than, this does more dmg. Resources matter

[frosty gyro]

And gives the regen from VW

[quick fog]

Especially if we are planning on Rupture spamming

[frosty gyro]

Energy isn't a big concern on a 4+ mob pull last I checked

[ruby idol]

We have 2 resources :) we run ep :)

[frosty gyro]

Yeah how does that not do ep?

And it doesn't waste the cp

[inner pulsar]

Since when was EP a resource?

[velvet kernel]

^^

[harsh glacier]

He's not wrong that it's better to keep the 10% damage buff up over a garrotte though

[frosty gyro]

Yeah but you don't lose the 10% buff...

[harsh glacier]

Yeah I just mean if you had to choose between a garrotte and ep

[weak pine]

!ss

[quasi ledge]

G > G > G > R > G > FoK > R > FoK > CT. Found it better to at least get 1 Rupture up before using CT otherwise you're just starved. Plus the 4th Garrote we can put up now will help with regen. Stuff lasts long enough on Fort to not have to instantly CT.

[weak pine]

Ah the bot is also gone

[inner pulsar]

@weak pine Nah bruh

Shits dead

[weak pine]

First thing I do is read the pings

Like any decent human being

[frosty gyro]

@quasi ledge I have a suspicion waiting that long for CT is bad

[visual token]

Lol

[weak pine]

Then again we shouldn't classify rogues as humans

[quick fog]

Big yikes

[inner pulsar]

@weak pine Do you? Cause you wouldn't have tried !ss if you did.

[visual token]

!ss should just return a “FiXT”

[weak pine]

I mean if you read my comment after saying it

You'd understand

[inner pulsar]

@visual token

[quick fog]

Even without SS do you still prefer to play Sub over WA in M+?

[frosty gyro]

You mean MA?

[weak pine]

No SS=no m+

[quick fog]

Yeah MA

[quasi ledge]

Maybe lower keys getting an early CT is more worth. But doing 10-12's you still need to refresh CT at least once. I just find i get too starved without a Rupture up and generally feels a bit shit

[harsh glacier]

I tried sub in m+ and it was bad

[frosty gyro]

It would be better than MA no?

[inner pulsar]

Haha, I think he meant Subterfuge

[harsh glacier]

Oh you meant talent

[quick fog]

Sub as in Subfertuge.

[harsh glacier]

I'm dumb

[visual token]

😂

[harsh glacier]

Subterfuge is good

[silk jolt]

!ss

[harsh glacier]

Xd

[weak pine]

That's a nice fight starting question

[frosty gyro]

Also the spec sub is fine in M+

[quick fog]

You also can immediately go G>FOK>CT

[weak pine]

👍

[frosty gyro]

It's not as good as sin but it's not terrible

[quick fog]

With MA

[inner pulsar]

And yeah, I would imagine Subterfuge would still be optimal, as it is actually close on ST to MA for me even without SS

[quick fog]

And MA makes your boss fights better

[inner pulsar]

Like, real close, surprisingly close

[quick fog]

It just feels better in M+.

[harsh glacier]

I've been trying double dose and ma in m+ and it's surprisingly close to my ss aoe and better st

[quick fog]

75% of the time it's way better. 25% it's barely worse.

[harsh glacier]

But I only have 2 ss pieces

[quick fog]

That's what I'm working on getting to Pro.

It's just hard getting azerite

[frosty gyro]

So I mean that's just wrong

Like SS is only 300dps or so under DD if you have 3

For ST

That's 24 sec garrote vs dd

If you get 54 sec of garrote...

No way that DD gets near it

[grim wolf]

how do you sim for m+ again? 5 target hectic add cleave?

[twin meadow]

6 bosses, 40 sec

[quick fog]

Somewhere from 3 to 6 depending on how many mobs you normally pull

[quaint sequoia]

I do 6targets 40sec patchwork

[grim wolf]

ah kk thanks @twin meadow

[marble hemlock]

dont do hectic add cleave, and disable all raidbuffs when simming for m+

[harsh glacier]

@frosty gyro I guess you're just looking at sims, dd outperforms ss St fairly significantly in my experience

Longer the fight goes on the bigger the gap too

[inner pulsar]

@harsh glacier What does that mean?

[ripe nimbus]

What if i told u traits don't matter and playing the game better makes more of a difference then traits do

[marble hemlock]

id ask "why not both?"

[harsh glacier]

Herodamage sims without ma I believe? Also 300 dps on herodamage isn't = 300 dps in game

[hybrid thicket]

@harsh glacier so DD better for raids and pvp ?

[inner pulsar]

Are you saying that in your experience in real encounters DD outperforms SS?@harsh glacier

[ripe nimbus]

Because 80% of the people talking about traits play at a low skill level and think traits are gonna save them or some shyt

[marble hemlock]

while true, it also means that any form of improvement is a significant one, so getting better traits will definitely lead to an increase in performance

[harsh glacier]

No idea about pvp, for raids dd is very strong

[ripe nimbus]

Id focus more on playing better then trying to get optimal traits

[inner pulsar]

Well, to support his Critizin's statement, one look at the rankings for any boss will show that there are plenty of people doing well with all kinds of traits, including sub-optimal ones

[harsh glacier]

I mean 3x ss will make you feel like a god at low level keys just by pressing garrotte

[weak pine]

I go away for 10 minutes and somebody's thanking @twin meadow ? What has the world turned into

[harsh glacier]

It's not gonna make a significant difference at 10+ though

[inner pulsar]

Not to mention that you can wish all you want, but if you don't have a 370+ DD trait, it doesn't matter

[alpine pilot]

is SS simming lower than it should on simc?

with subterfuge i mean

[rotund ridge]

guys do you delay exsanguinate for galecaller?

[inner pulsar]

@harsh glacier Says who? You seem to be spouting a lot of feelcraft here

SS gains value as key level increases because of longer mob life

[quick fog]

It decreases at some point though

[harsh glacier]

It loses value cause you don't have stealth garrottes

[vital haven]

!ss

[quick fog]

You can't vanish every pack

[vital haven]

ITS OVER

[harsh glacier]

Sims are good but remember they're not always perfect at taking everything into account

Sometimes experience > sims

Not saying I'm an expert

[wheat zealot]

Feelycraft alert

[harsh glacier]

Just that I think some people buy into Sims too hard

[quick fog]

Also fuck tanks that pull too fast for you to restealth

[inner pulsar]

No, you aren't vanishing every pack, but using your logic, that the mobs are living so long as to diminish SS value, you would be likely to vanish what, every other pack?

@wheat zealot Yeap, alright, I got it now

[harsh glacier]

Mobs at 10+ definitely live long enough to diminish so value

[wheat zealot]

If a tank keeps chainpulling i just leave key