you should experiment what you feel is best for you/for grp comps you run
#assassination
spice surge
I mean, PB is the exception
On tyrannical with a heavy aoe group you might consider pb in certain dungeons (KR for example)
hollow cloud
@lethal heart 
spice surge
But in general CT is just better
lone junco
Seb seems like a trustworthy fellow.
ebon gulch
is it better to spam ct or ct /1-2 rupt / ct?
lethal heart
depends on amount of targets
you wanna have some ruptures going on
so you dont starve yourselcv
or depends also on your traits
lets say you have scent of blood
lone junco
My napkin has Ct refresh before env at 6t.
spice surge
Envenom is also good with lots of targets. Its pretty convoluted to aoe on big packs
lethal heart
in general i think on 5-6 targets though
you do triple garrote -> ct -> triple ruptures
-> ct refresh
maybe vanish somewhere if you have that
pastel wasp
!tips
prisma monolithBOT
Uldir tips and tricks: http://www.ravenholdt.net/uldir-tips-tricks/
lethal heart
crit rng is kind of scuffed
because getting 1 cp foks in 5-6 target situations
feelsbad
wheat zealot
Another reason its good to stack crit for m+
lethal heart
rng cp generation
smoky topaz
!ss
prisma monolithBOT
Shrouded Suffocation
Currently still bugged. Applying 1-3 Garrotes in Subterfuge, and then applying another Garrote outside of Subterfuge, all of your Subterfuge-empowered Garrotes lose the Shrouded Suffocation multiplier, However the Subterfuge multiplier still remains.
Advised to not cast unbuffed Garrotes to avoid losing SS trait damage bonuses until this has been fixed.
wheat zealot
And mastery of course
spice surge
You can have 99% crit and still get 1 CP on 6 targets
spice surge
But yeah
wheat zealot
^
lethal heart
but having trinkets + deadly navigation that have some crit procs
- a lot of base crit
during procs you can probably peak at like ~38-45% crit i think
balmy cradle
Nice 380 haste versa ring without socket from weekly chest.... 340 shoulders till next raidtier inc -,-
lethal heart
depending on your base crit
balmy cradle
Stupid slotmachine gearing <_<
nimble cobalt
can someone tell me what im doing wrong
spice surge
What do you mean doing wrong
nimble cobalt
i feel like thats a little too low simming for that ilvl
spice surge
Its not.
spark raft
nimble cobalt
there s ppl around here simming higher with less ilvl and i highly doubt that only the shrine trinket makes the difference
spice surge
Ilvl is an awfully poor indication of damage
calm grail
It's kind of weird though, I think I might have too much Critical Strike that it's telling me Mastery is better than crit now?
balmy cradle
Cba still stacking crit xP
bright shale
At what point can I say my parse is bad due to guild kill time and not entirely my fault?
calm grail
Why mastery?
spice surge
Depends on what you mean by a "bad" parse
lone junco
Ma tb?
bright shale
Like 70 to 80
calm grail
Could be.
balmy cradle
Anyone did tol dagor this week on a high key? Need it for score still...
bright shale
Our heroic group is carrying like 7 people 6 of which are dps
calm grail
MA and TB are about 2% less residentsleeper then subterfuge.
I actually have to sort of think about my opener since I just changed.
frosty gyro
@spice surge what lol no it's worth like 10ilvs
wheat zealot
If you have the same ring one has a socket one doesnt, the one without a socket needs to be 25 ilvls higher
To have more stats
frosty gyro
It's really easy with a ring because they only give secondary stat
10 ilvs on a ring = ~+40
bright shale
Like I said.. 25 ilvls is 40 stats
wheat zealot
Not on a ring lul
frosty gyro
Yep...
summer marten
nope
i have one 360 and one 340 with socket, 340 has 352 base stats and 360 has 388 base stats
36 more on 20ilvl different, so for 40 its 25
wheat zealot
^^
frosty gyro
Oh I put in the wrong numbers for my 2nd ring lol
bright shale
Brilliant
frosty gyro
It was coming up as like twice as high
bright shale
What really bothers me is having to have a set of 340 gear for m+ and 370 set for uldir btw
frosty gyro
I just use 385 gear for both 🤔
bright shale
The uldir traits arent as good outside uldir
frosty gyro
Archive is quite good in M+
bright shale
I'm pretty sure you can get more out of stacking other ones than using laser matrix
frosty gyro
Yeah laser matrix isn't as good
I want to get rid of my laser matrix hat
But I'm pretty sure 370 laser matrix > 340
bright shale
It's a horrible design
spice surge
I wouldnt use any non-ss trait for m+. Maaaaaybe for tyrannical
frosty gyro
I mean archive and sob are both good
And higher ilv the mainstat just makes other stuff worth
ember ermine
I'm running 3x SS in M+ and Dagger,Arc,SS in raid
bright shale
I'm so close to 15k club zzzz
bright shale
Gonna try to farm storms this week
spice surge
2 SS azerites from chest
spice surge
Why do you have laser matrix on your chest
ember ermine
I'm just over 15k at 364-366 ilvl
spice surge
Archives* when you have laser on head. Is it really not better to have double SS?
bright shale
Idk
lone junco
Even ss is great for tyr due to the low uptime required after the opener.
slender hare
still havent gotten GCB because none of my guildies want to do shrine T_T
kindred flame
You chose the wrong week for it tho
solar fog
So 3xSS still good, was trying to go for 3xSoB
ember ermine
I did shrine a few times and our DH got a 370...
lone junco
Just get GC fro your weekly box.
spice surge
Just run with a priest for shrine
frosty gyro
SoB is good too probably want at least 1x SS though
slender hare
spice surge
MC > kill all the small bois > profit
ember ermine
MC didn't drop bolstering right?
spice surge
MCed mobs dont get bolstering not
shrewd depot
!ss
prisma monolithBOT
Shrouded Suffocation
Currently still bugged. Applying 1-3 Garrotes in Subterfuge, and then applying another Garrote outside of Subterfuge, all of your Subterfuge-empowered Garrotes lose the Shrouded Suffocation multiplier, However the Subterfuge multiplier still remains.
Advised to not cast unbuffed Garrotes to avoid losing SS trait damage bonuses until this has been fixed.
ember ermine
Kk
subtle sigil
hey guys, i got a 370 top from uldir and it has archive or shrouded
which one should i use?
ember ermine
sim
frosty gyro
Do you have any other uldir pieces?
subtle sigil
i have laser matrix on helm
strange python
Fuck
frosty gyro
Then use SS
subtle sigil
ok thanks
ember ermine
i got a helm like that @strange python
desert vault
Does sim handle GCB and dice well? I just have a 340 of each, but they are like 8 DPS apart from one another
strange python
Lets sim this shit
frosty gyro
Doesn't handle GCB well
solar fog
Where do i get helm with SS?
solar fog
Rip
desert vault
I use dice right now just cause easier to not mess up or w/e 😃
ember ermine
Dagger simmed better than my arc and laser helm @strange python
desert vault
but I feel like GCB isn't simming as well as it should
ember ermine
both were 370
frosty gyro
It's simming better than it should
Because it doesn't account for being forced out of it
Or not being able to use it on cd
desert vault
Oh ok, well I'll stick with dice then I suppose
nimble cobalt
opener for master assassin?
slender hare
lone junco
I'm like 14.7 at 360. On my way to 15k
nimble cobalt
thanks a lot 😃
slender hare
whut Noobe you're 360 equipped? thought you were above 370
strange python
does double dose change the rotation at all? iirc there was somethinga bout clipping envenom? didn't make much sense at the time but now I have a 385 dd piece
spice surge
Not really
You should be trying to fit most of your mutilates inside envenoms already, but it becomes more important with DD
frosty gyro
DD means you probably want to use TB/MA which is a different rotation right?
strange python
TB was always simming best for me, I am switching to MA now though
frosty gyro
TB sims like 10 dps over exsang for me but I hate playing with TB
strange python
I think @slender hare just posted the opener above
10 dps
then just choose w/e u like more
placid elbow
^
frosty gyro
Yeah I was implying I use exsang...
buoyant anchor
Hmm, i see that Double Dose azerite trait is the best for ST (outside of Uldir trait). But i still see alot of assassins using Shrouded Suffocation. Is DD rly better than SS?
strange python
it's a couple of percentages for me and was even with SS
strange python
SS starts to fall off after like 10+
placid elbow
SS is great for multi target and not too bad at single target.
wide narwhal
Guys i have 2 340 shoulder Double dose /SS and the weekly pvp gives 355 shoulder which has the talent of battlefield focus the azerite trait is pvp trait but it gives +6*
+50 agility +90 stam,ina
which should i use
strange python
Sim yourself
buoyant anchor
Aih, icic. no wonder. thanks thanks! I thought M+ was more aoe so i was using blightborne instead
solar fog
Ya getting those ss pieces is hard
spice surge
Herodamage has a decent approximation of m+
strange python
But I saw the top rogue running 1SS, 1 Archive and 1 unstable catalyst
But thats like +16s +17s
lethal heart
people just run
whatever highest they have
because its hard to sim m+
and in general higher ilvl is just more stats and what not
as long as trait isnt complete garbage obv
strange python
no not really
bitter chasm
high ilvl azerite has a lot of stam
frosty gyro
And mainstat
balmy cradle
I run 3ss 385/340/360 in m+ i could change to 370/370 but i feel like its dps loss
frosty gyro
The 370>340 is probably a dps increase due to mainstat
lethal heart
is it better/worse
spice surge
On bosses yes, on trash no
frosty gyro
Unless the traits are complete trash
frosty gyro
~150 static mainstat is pretty good 🤔
lethal heart
because i dont have better rofl
spice surge
50% more garrote damage is also pretty good
frosty gyro
Not to mention a 370 trait vs 340 ss
lethal heart
i'd play scent of blood/shrouded if i could choose
bitter chasm
imo, use 3ss unless you have 385 piece
lethal heart
but that'd be luxioury
frosty gyro
You don't get 50% more garrote damage from 1x340 SS when you also have a385/360 SS lol
frosty gyro
What's the sin trait?
balmy cradle
And the si trait is the throw knife shit
lethal heart
but well in general i think if you're unsure what to do
just go with higher ilvl
or they sim close
strange python
469 + 307 + 370=1146 / 406 + 406 + 370= 1182 @balmy cradle
lethal heart
if you even believe sims for m+
frosty gyro
Unless the pvp trait is the good pvp trait 🤔
strange python
@balmy cradle 370/370/360 is better according to math
+you get more agil
and stam
balmy cradle
Nah its the crit haste proc which sometimes even procs on sap or shroud xD
frosty gyro
I don't get azerite procs
They proc on so much random stuff and sometimes on nothing
balmy cradle
But im kinda happy with 3ss even with 340 since it has heed my call and shield on it
frosty gyro
I was stealthed afk next to a wq area for 5 minutes
And suddenly laser matrix procced
Just like ???
balmy cradle
Shield is so broken in higher m+
lethal heart
once you start getting defensive row in azerite pieces
the bosses will be such a joke in raid
frosty gyro
And then you get 385 gear and don't have defensives again 🤔
spice surge
@balmy cradle Incase you're using 340 chest. Go do some conquest caps for a 355 SS chest
lethal heart
thats such a big boost to your hp pool
solar fog
3xshield 
balmy cradle
Nah chest is 360 yay
desert vault
was there a guide some for Uldir tips for rogues?
spice surge
!tips
prisma monolithBOT
Uldir tips and tricks: http://www.ravenholdt.net/uldir-tips-tricks/
lone junco
why did they put offensive traits first row tbh. cause I have 2nd row on most of my stuff with zero farming. tbh. flip that around and im dumpster tier and would have to wear 325 to access inner ring
like 21 neck or something
balmy cradle
If your full group has 3x shield trait in m+ your heal will have a constant boner
10/10 will happen
lone junco
you dont have to answer that. Its rhetorical
strange python
what shield talent? the every 30 sec one?
balmy cradle
Yes
Do you guys actually bother with stats in m+? I just enchant and socket all crit und use mostly highest ilvl
And so far it works
lost wharf
Guys, I did it! I broke the haste barrier! https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/vTV2bFCLS5qe4g7wcWBtRk
devout jolt
ha what % did you get to to have this happen
lost wharf
Idk, that's with 5 Origination Array Stacks
I guess like 1.7k haste, Idk what % that is
lone junco
@lost wharf did it go from high to low to higher?
or haste barrier meaning not best anymore
lost wharf
Not best anymore
lone junco
lost wharf
It slowly started diminishing
lone junco
18 is pretty low, but I guess you arent running 2ss
mossy hazel
I mean raid buffed I'm usually around 22% and my haste sims higher than my agi right now...
lone junco
yeah, thats raw stat
lost wharf
I also have the galecaller's trinket
mossy hazel
Phew
lost wharf
Look at mine tho :3
lone junco
weights dont really matter a ton. I use top gear for stuff and transition from smart sim to 100k once i need to dial it in.
lost wharf
LOL. So all I did was swap the crit mastery boots for haste versa. It lost me 7 dps and with more haste on boots my haste value goes up. https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/ikxTTEHbizRC7GxKzMzHP7
How does that make sense?
balmy cradle
Magic
lone junco
crit = mastery = haste.
2ss / gc.
but thats 21% unbuffed. so like 24+ in raid
(what that means to me, is that this build is almost capped out. Nothing scales super strong)
lost wharf
At that point it just becomes a matter of ilvl upgrades which is basically what Blizz intended I guess
balmy cradle
Hm maybe i should start enchanting haste too i have 13% on 375 ilvl
mossy hazel
It just occurred to me that the Heed my Call trait *probably isn't as good when running exsang over TB... I don't know why that took me so long to realize...
lost wharf
Exsang is probably better for progression than TB tho, considering Exsang suffers less from low uptime on the boss
mossy hazel
Yea, I've started running exsang lately
I didn't think I would like it, but it definitely has a better feel to it
verbal nimbus
I love TB
gritty solstice
Can someone give me some tips for my opener at Zul
im using Double dose x2 and SS
lost wharf
TB gives your rotation more constant focus, while Exsang basically is every minute if you use galecaller
kindred flame
@gritty solstice you need tips for logs being low?
unreal sundial
With log review is it ever worth aggregating values, or should I always review pull by pull?
unreal sundial
Not specifically to do with Sin but generally
gritty solstice
some people tell me its worth to do 6 garrotes with vanish but i dont see why if mobs dont survive
haughty flame
lost wharf
Does crusher survife that long? And you should propably try to get a trait from the raid to get that sweet origination array
gritty solstice
my chest and head are 385 and they sim higher than 370 with laser matrix
lone junco
@gritty solstice if you are in subterfuge, and Zul crusher hexer, I would garrote all 3. but I would never intentionally garrote a craig.
but thats me.
it needs to live 18 sec to bother.
hybrid chasm
is it better to have reorigination array buff haste or krit? and if it is possible to sim that tell me how to pls :p
gritty solstice
@lone junco Hmm i suppose then maybe vanish and garrote them all 3 twice?
lost wharf
@hybrid chasm Just sim stat weights. The higher stat is the one you want to buff
hybrid chasm
alright
hollow grove
im simming 15k but yet im only doing 12k and my rupture garrote is near 100% uptime im confused
lost wharf
@gritty solstice Hmm, considering you have such high ilvl pieces I'm assuming you have good gear. I can't imagine tho that 375 extra stat are worth less than a double dose or a ss
lost wharf
@lone junco I think you wanna cap rupture before exsang
shut crest
yea you miss pandemic rupture on exsang like this
lone junco
@lost wharf im good boo.
hollow grove
is exs better than tb?
shut crest
it sims the same for me
gritty solstice
for some fights i think exs is better
shut crest
fetid burst exsang is prolly better
primal gazelle
do you delay exsang if you have GC?
lost wharf
I personally do. Idk if it's better tho. I guess it depends on the fight length aswell as specific parameters in the fight
Like vectis becomes untargetable in the intermission, so using exsang on cd probably is a waste
lone junco
@primal gazelle depends: which boss, and at what point in the rotation
If you have to move just hammer GC/Exang back to back
if you arent playing ss exang then meh.
primal gazelle
i just got a GC last night, but it appears to not sim very high with exsang compared to TB, which is a huge surprise to me
700 dps loss to use exsang
acoustic breach
But the Sim looks so high !!!
lone junco
meh.
primal gazelle
oh ops
lone junco
M+ sim? try 6t 40s. no raid buffs.
lone junco
@hollow grove did your range kill the adds on the platform while you stood around with your dick out?
it is a shitty fight.
lost wharf
Only 4 Origination Array stacks, reeeeeeee
And yea, HC taloc is shit to compare. You can only really count mother if you are allowed to tunnel it. But then the fight is kinda short so meh 🤷
ebon garden
down to 4.7% haste on my m+ set now 
somber egret
Had my best parses on Zul and Fetid Heroic last night, thanks to the people of this channel. My gold parses are. Because of you😘
lone junco
wot
lost wharf
@ebon garden Uh, haste sims the highest for me in hectic add cleave https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/4G3cPBvgscWNiUmLodX1xb
pearl meteor
Why are you dropping haste in m+ o.O
lone junco
M+ is crit stack due to fok cp gen
pearl meteor
Yikes. Yikes. Yikes.
lost wharf
Yea, but more haste = more fok
lone junco
you dont want more fok
undone cairn
No need for more foks tho
primal gazelle
more crit = less globals used on fok
lone junco
you want more cp per fok
lost wharf
FoK does a huge portion of your aoe dmg tho
lone junco
@lost wharf hecktic add cleave 5mins is a bad sim for m+
undone cairn
You're doing something wrong if it is
ebon garden
only 28% crit 
undone cairn
As in your spamming it to much
lone junco
FOK white is good with scent
primal gazelle
here is a proper sim again,
TB is about 1% stronger than exsang even with GC
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/gjeu9PjczL2S62by2JU2mZ
lost wharf
What do you wanna sim then if it's not hectic add cleave?
ionic charm
Patchwerk, 5 bosses, 40 seconds or 1 min
lone junco
@primal gazelle but thats why we use top gear. tons of options
primal gazelle
@lone junco i do have 1 SS in my bags at 370, it sims even LESS
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/tRxH4TtMTS88wYkwWYxDN7
lone junco
then grats on the 16.5
ionic charm
I’m in the same boat as him, sim is right there, showing Tb winning and ss not worth using. My best combo is SB/Blightborne/Archive lul
primal gazelle
SS w/ exsang GC sims less than TB/GC/doubledose
so im just confused
on what to use lol
ideally gc should be really strong with exsang and ss but sims show otherwise
pearl meteor
Sim it in gear compare with a 2nd ss
ionic charm
The weird thing is haste sims as a higher stat weight for myself with Tb than exsang. It’s really strange
inner pecan
the strength of SS is not single target Patchwerk
pearl meteor
I sim at 16.6 rn with 355 ss being my best with exsang
lone junco
@primal gazelle a lot of the bang comes from the vuln phases with vanish vendetta gc exang. sim doesnt look at that.
use the log compare tool to see the best rogue at your ilvl in a comparable kill time
cause the 40s mother logs with cheese. arent worth looking at.
lost wharf
Exsang is worse on paper, but checking logs shows exsang is way more often the talent of choice. In an ideal world where you just tunnel the boss and dps w/o moving an inch you probably do more dps with TB and sometimes even the execute talent. However that isn't the case for most bosses and for the bosses where it is the case it doesn't matter since they are easy.
The sims just show you what talent sets are viable and you gotta adjust to the boss and your cds and equipment to make the right call.
And for those simming 5 target patchwerk on 1min. Goodluck with high keys on tyrannical or just high keys in general...
ionic charm
I feel like you don’t understand the reason people run sims
lone junco
@lost wharf tahts what seli uses and he does +15s
the goal is to balance a certain portion of the m+
ours is a restealth open
period
g g g ct.
a 5 min sim is horribly rediculous.
no re-stealth, just erase your ss traits
bottom line, if you arent pulling 20-25k on trash, your setup is wrong.
ionic charm
We really should just try to use those restealth features the guy was talking about in #tc-updates because that’s a whole lot more significant than a fresh sim which gives you vanish every time
lone junco
they arent done yet
strange python
would you recommend ct in m+ @lone junco ?
lone junco
always
lost wharf
A 5min sim is more balanced around the uses of your cds.
lone junco
what are your cd times?
lost wharf
2min
lone junco
negative
ionic charm
I thought herodamage m+ ranks were already using restealthing? I guess we just can fuse it?
lone junco
you dont even need to use vanish on trash packs. unless there is a prio.
winter fox
ct>PB anyday. its more reliable that PB for trash pulls, it doesnt off alot of boss fight but you still have great ST damage
lone junco
45sec exang and 1min GC.
feel free to do whatever sim you want. but when your Sim comes back with you using DD or Sharp Knife. then lol.
lost wharf
Vanish is however used in the sims you are referring to. In a 40sec sim you have ridicilous uptime on your stealth buffed garrotes with possible ss traits
ionic charm
Vanish ends up being pretty nice this week with like 3 target pulls, if they live long enough
pearl meteor
40s sim with or without vanish ss is best. For m+ ss is king end of story
lone junco
for now
pearl meteor
Mhm
lone junco
the herodamage should be good soon.
lost wharf
You can turn off lust easily, Idk the apl to remove vanish useage
ionic charm
I just want to figure out at what point my 340 ss won’t be used. Like my 385 blightborne is amazing in st, and crit is even better in aoe
lone junco
never
har har
i keed
run a top gear of 6t40s. raid buffs off. try 3ss vs 2ss + 385.
if it is like +/- 0.5% pick the big one, if it makes you feel better
and the hps
ionic charm
Yeah pretty much my way of thinking
lone junco
but when you do that, know you could have just shifted your stats to crit mastery
pretty sure seli has 2% haste in his M+ gear
but he pulls bigger than i do.
so I keep the sim values at 6t
hollow stone
Im using 355 ss 370 arch 385 sob in m+ and pulling sexy dmg on trash
balmy cradle
Yeah haste is only bad on big pulls
ionic charm
My haste is already pretty low in my m+ set, I keep 40% crit
hollow stone
So you dont have to play 3 ss
ionic charm
Errr 35
ionic charm
40 was when I stepped into the raid with it lol
balmy cradle
30crit 13haste in my m+ gear still good enough
ionic charm
Run MA 😛
ionic charm
My mut gets 50% crit over a fight with 40% base crit in raids and blightborne
Oh I’m sure the spyglass doesn’t hurt
undone cairn
oh yeah true
lone junco
@undone cairn back in legion i had a 12 crit mut string. (argus) but it was good
pearl meteor
Your stacking crit for raid?
undone cairn
poggers
ionic charm
Probably 0 pbombs though
undone cairn
i'm currently using a 370 die and fathoms
ionic charm
And no, just best gear all has crit, all haste pieces are 15 ilvls lower
pearl meteor
Whats your haste at?
ionic charm
Let me look at my wclogs I actually don’t recall
pearl meteor
Tb I assume?
ionic charm
Tb yeah, and haste at 14. Sim at 16.5
waxen blaze
Is poison bomb or Crimson Tempest better for AoE in M+? or in general M+?
pearl meteor
Yea idk
balmy cradle
Ct for sure
primal gazelle
does wclog summary stat include buffs?
ripe geyser
@waxen blaze depends on the grp comp really
ionic charm
No but if you update your profile you can find them
primal gazelle
like food e tc
shut magnet
Also if you have to move adds often, if it's sanguine etc
waxen blaze
@ripe geyser on what exactly?
pearl meteor
How much aoe is in ur grp
ionic charm
@waxen blaze if you need to be the one doing the aoe or the st
ripe geyser
@waxen blaze If you play with heavy aoe dps rlly no need to play CT
waxen blaze
Aight ty for the quick answers 😃
balmy cradle
@waxen blaze well if you run +5 keys with high aoe burst classes ct is trash but usually ct outweighs pb over whole dungeon especially when mobs live longer
shut magnet
If you push very high keys, it's still good right?
pearl meteor
This week high keys always ct
balmy cradle
Last week i only ran pb in kings rest on high keys (15+)
Pb is not even that good on st fights imo just feels bad overall
quiet rover
What should i be doing for gem slots? 1 agi and the others my highest secondary stat?
quiet rover
my haste is slightly below agi so 1 agi and the rest haste?
pearl meteor
Ye
quiet rover
kk ty 😃
ripe geyser
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/ckF9Y9nSGAmWwGvzKAHgBE 16k club boys wohoo
pearl meteor
Till it falls off
edgy latch
is the opener different with master assassin?
unique axle
Is anyone of you actually using mfd in m+? On herodamage it Sims fine, i guess
edgy latch
figured that you might want tb within the crit window
since its different with vanish
lone junco
@unique axle not that I know of tbh.
pearl meteor
No mfd
frosty pebble
Wow.. Been away for 2 weeks and now we should run MA and TB instead of Subterfuge and Exsg?
pearl meteor
Depends.
lone junco
@frosty pebble it depends
wild mural
Depends on SS and your sim
balmy cradle
Mfd sucks with ss trait. Spamming 3 garrote and not having the + energy feels bad
pearl meteor
If your stats favor that build yes
frosty pebble
I am running 2 SS atm
undone cairn
@ripe geyser when do you activate your golden plumage?
pearl meteor
With how much haste?
undone cairn
after vendetta?
pearl meteor
Exsang prob still better with 2 ss
For me it is atm but i have upwards of 23% haste
frosty pebble
I'm at 20% haste I think
pearl meteor
Ye prob exsang
frosty pebble
So MA build should be for lower values of haste?
ionic charm
@edgy latch I’ve seen the question asked several times and nobody has given a straight answer, guide isn’t updated. Best bet is probably just to check sim apl if you actually want to run it
pearl meteor
Exsang has always spiked haste value
lost wharf
Simming through some of my gear I get that crit scales up if you do such short sims for aoe, but the value isn't that high to be worth it if you consider not having cds up all the time and not having any haste for bossfights
ripe geyser
@undone cairn with vendetta
lost wharf
The high sims I find in M+ all have various stat priorities, none being "the best" as it appears. Most go for crit, but none of the drop haste to such a low value
lone junco
ss doesnt require much to be great. prob why it started early. DD works with env uptime, thus crit.
we are going to see slides in meta all expac
edgy latch
@ionic charm Damn, i'm horrible with apl-stuff
mental pumice
How much will the use of Vanish in your rotation, affect the amount of DPS you do? I saw a guy in here, a couple of days ago, who was using it to gain 3 envenoms within one TB. Can't find anything about it
cerulean walrus
Noobe, did you get a nice rest after all of that big brain math you did last night?
balmy cradle
@lost wharf i stack crit for m+ but i still have 13% haste. I just feel i need a bit of haste at least
wild mural
You also get to restealth in m+ which is the biggest factor for ss being more ideal
lone junco
@cerulean walrus i was pretty zzz tbh
ionic charm
@edgy latch did you play sin in antorus at all? That opener would give you an idea of what to do I think
ember ermine
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/jQPyW58r2brkptQUHTbyD4 Damn Mastery is 2nd highest now :\
edgy latch
@ionic charm Came back to my rogue in bfa release, played hunter in legion unfortunately
lone junco
@cerulean walrus tbh, my math came back with 6T for CT refresh over Env, and then seb said the same thing. 5-6T. so i feel good about it.
lost wharf
@balmy cradle Yea, that seems to be what most ppl go for. Actually many ppl also go for mastery and versa, kinda balancing out all stats and making the most of crit. Basically high ilv+crit being what you gear for. Other ppl around here been telling stories of dropping to 3-4% haste on their aoe gear which I can't imagine doing much work in m+
cerulean walrus
@lone junco There you go mang
ionic charm
@edgy latch ok 1 sec I’ll look at it. But I have a good guess as to what it is based on Antorus
lone junco
- unless vendetta is out obv *
edgy latch
ty
pearl meteor
@lone junco meaning in m+ your going to env on 4 targets and spam fok?
Or did i miss something
In convo lol
balmy cradle
@lost wharf since u cant gearswap i feel having the overall best equip outweighs prioritising only aoe or st except for very specific comps or dungeons
ionic charm
@edgy latch g m r ven van Tb mut env mut env etc
lost wharf
It's kinda crazy tho if you look at sims and see that the sims of the very first week are still the top for most dungeons. It's really insane how OP that trait was. Ppl with like 20ilvl less doing 2k more dps over the course of the dungoen...
edgy latch
double m if not enough cp's?
ionic charm
I guess? I only looked at sample list not the rules
ionic charm
Np
balmy cradle
@lost wharf if you know your aoe or st is not needed feel free to spec into the other but overall crit and mainstat push and then finding a middle ground for haste and mastery is what i go for personally
opaque grotto
I think some people are using TB and mut before vanish and doing envenom > mut > envenom after they vanish
With MA
pearl meteor
How much haste are people running atm with MA tb in raid?
ionic charm
Yeah probably because they’re used to antorus opener. Sim apl says differently but idk
primal gazelle
anyone here sim 17k?
opaque grotto
I mean in my head that seems correct but idk I don’t mess with APLs
edgy latch
sounds like a job for #tc-research
lost wharf
@balmy cradle Yea, it largely depends on your comp and the affixes. It's really weird tho that in constant aoe your haste tends to sim higher than crit.
ionic charm
Rawr simmed at 17k yesterday. And the apl says Tb after vanish. Antorus opener had Tb before vanish, which is why it “seems” one way. I doubt it’s much different either way
opaque grotto
Well @ionic charm it’s the difference between 1 envenom and 2 within MA
So is it better to get 2 envenoms or 1 Tb and 1 env
ionic charm
Right well top MA build uses triple double dose so...
primal gazelle
do you guys try to pool and get 3 envenoms within 1 TB? did anyone do the math on that
opaque grotto
I think the math is just press it on CD
edgy latch
@subtle kiln wouldnt tb > env be better in that case
opaque grotto
But like you can plan for it I guess
ionic charm
I know it’s blasphemy and all, but holding Tb for 10s for MA vanish isn’t the end of the world
edgy latch
you could hold vanish/vend quite often though
as long as it doesnt affect amount of casts
opaque grotto
Yeah like if you know you’re only gonna get 2 vendetta off in a fight
You can hold it
edgy latch
mother is a good example
ebon garden
!ss
prisma monolithBOT
Shrouded Suffocation
Currently still bugged. Applying 1-3 Garrotes in Subterfuge, and then applying another Garrote outside of Subterfuge, all of your Subterfuge-empowered Garrotes lose the Shrouded Suffocation multiplier, However the Subterfuge multiplier still remains.
Advised to not cast unbuffed Garrotes to avoid losing SS trait damage bonuses until this has been fixed.
fossil agate
Mythic zekvoz i hold the hell out of ven/van to blow up second add spawn
lone junco
@pearl meteor my math was just raw ct hit vs env hit averages without vendetta. it was consistently like 8k env and 1500 ct hit. meaning env was 5.3x ct hit. So when GGGCT tab ruptures, when you are done with ruptures, and have refreshed CT in pandemic, do you ENV? or do you CT again.
For me. and my brain, it seemed like 6T was that point.
I like simple rules.
inner zephyr
#nonewfriends
balmy cradle
@pearl meteor doesnt it depend heavy on comp/pulls/affixes/dungeon?
fossil agate
Fort weeks will bloat your dps hard
balmy cradle
Well i jump from 13k-18k depending on that stuff tbh
ionic charm
Yeah like a kr dps is like at least 5k below freehold
fossil agate
Kr you rarely do more then 2 packs tho
pearl meteor
Last kr i did 17.6 🤷♀️
fossil agate
Only to last 2 bosses
pearl meteor
.3*
edgy latch
using CT for kings rest
ionic charm
I guess I have too many tanks dying to the backhand it lowers it lol
edgy latch
i always go tb for kr
lone junco
afk work 🚪
pearl meteor
Meh
balmy cradle
@edgy latch i still run exs but pb over ct on kr
edgy latch
i mean bomb*
pearl meteor
Im more into raiding than m+ atm so idk all strats anyways
Never ran tb in anything with how my gear is atm
fossil agate
I need to sit down and resim talents hard
ionic charm
There’s only like 4 possible talent combos
balmy cradle
I wish i could raid myth but my weekly schedule is changing too much that guilds take me
primal gazelle
anyone here sim 17k? can you link?
fossil agate
Ive gone up like 10% haste since last time i simmed talents
paper bough
when im spreading garrotes out of stealth onto trash should i aim for them to always be 5cp?
or just do 3 cp on as many as possible
primal gazelle
@pearl meteor do you sync gc w/ exsang?
ionic charm
Prob still feels better than my r1 on dogs during fan madness
pearl meteor
No
fossil agate
Lmao
pearl meteor
Hold 2nd for ven/exsang/vanish
U can tech hold gc for 2nd exsang if ur gonna b right on cd but eh i usually just use it
primal gazelle
ohh
strange python
pearl meteor
I dont hold it idk most fights its too much of a headache
paper bough
Apply Garrote Icon Garrote.
Cast Mutilate Icon Mutilate.
Apply Rupture Icon Rupture.
Activate Vendetta Icon Vendetta.
Cast Mutilate Icon Mutilate.
Cast Toxic Blade Icon Toxic Blade.
Activate Vanish Icon Vanish.
Cast Envenom Icon Envenom.
Cast Mutilate Icon Mutilate.
Cast Garrote Icon Garrote.
Cast Envenom Icon Envenom.
pearl meteor
Just always line up with ven/vanish/exsang
paper bough
dagger, ss, dd
paper bough
oh yea way under
pearl meteor
Ye
hollow stone
It depends on situation as well
hollow stone
Its not a cut n dry use tb over xsang or the other way around
pearl meteor
Eh
pearl meteor
If ur simming higher with exsang ur gonna use exsang for p much everything
hollow stone
Yea, but if youre not, you prob wont, or maybe you will
pearl meteor
Lmao
signal salmon
pls help me with the MA Opener
hollow stone
Lol
pearl meteor
Too much settle down
hollow stone
Check the "no ss opener" on ravenholdt/pins @signal salmon
signal salmon
@hollow stone it works well with MA?
pearl meteor
8am and still not asleep this is great 😃
hollow stone
Yea. Alternatively you can sim yo self and read through the apl
pearl meteor
Or uk
Fk that complicated shit
N jus yolo everything
😃
Press the buttons your heart desires
hollow stone
Or you can scroll up forever in this chat to find one of the 800 times ive copy pasta'd the ma opener
balmy cradle
I like that
hollow stone
No sleep works wonders for you
pearl meteor
Definitely
glass vessel
am ir eading the right one? i dont see it teling you to vanish at the right time
pearl meteor
Just open with mut then vanish
hollow stone
These guys are gonna make me type it out again, arent they?
pearl meteor
Prob
glass vessel
nah i know the opener but there one on the site is pretty obscure
glass vessel
makes sense
paper bough
what do i need to know to get started in m+ with one ss, one dd, and a shit chest trait
pearl meteor
Garrote
paper bough
ive just been opening with 3 garrotes
paper bough
and then my damage nose dives on bosses
balmy cradle
Bleed and poison everyone and everything. And kick on cd
glass vessel
@signal salmon G-M(4-5cp)-R-M-TB-Ven-Van-Env-M/Env 4-5cp spam and that's really it
pretty sure that's it
signal salmon
ty
pearl meteor
Uk that pvp kidney talent? Take that n kidney on cd :^)
balmy cradle
Well show dominance through kicking mobs
edgy latch
@sour python different according to apl though
balmy cradle
Just for the sake of it
pearl meteor
Rofl
haughty lily
Garrote >CT>Rup is how I’ve been dealing with adds in M+
pearl meteor
Not a caster? Kick it
edgy latch
can anyone experienced with apl's actually sim the difference between env m env and tb m env in ma window?
hollow stone
Thx niko, my hero
thorn crater
@glass vessel is that a new opener?
hollow stone
And yes, that is correct for ma opener
glass vessel
@thorn crater that is the MA opener with toxic blades
thorn crater
DD or TK?
glass vessel
joined the 16k club last night thanks to 385 dagger from mother. atleast for sub. still at 15.5 for sin feelsbad
glass vessel
once you get sub down you can play it in your sleep on ST tho, i find sin to be a little more tricky
glass vessel
MA/TB is pretty easy but playing Subt/Exsang is quite punishing and playing it to it's maximum potential is difficult. to me at least
glass vessel
currently WM/DStrat is bet sim for my sub spec atm so it's significantly easier than FW/MfD
glass vessel
when/if FW/MfD sims higher im sure i will be more inclined to play sub more
glass vessel
yea taloc it's better, mother/fetid are straight up ST. vectis it's not really a big deal since for sub it's still basically an ST fight
radiant flame
do i keep boon till exa rdy?
pearl meteor
Fetid fw/mfd is better
glass vessel
only if you have to turn on adds x) my guild tells me to stay on boss feelsgood
glass vessel
nah heroic. my guild is a bit more casual, currently on zek mythic
glass vessel
on mythic it's definitely FW/MfD i agree
pearl meteor
Yup
glass vessel
i run the strongest spec for mythic since all 3 of my specs are ~370
so i play outlaw for mother and zek
balmy cradle
Out who?
hollow stone
Outlaw is so lulz on zek
cerulean walrus
Outlul
wet condor
in order to get the most dps in bosses what stats should i look out for, and when im doing single target bosses my dps can somtimes go down to 8k
glass vessel
rofl x) yea outlaw is my least favorite but it's undeniable how strong it is on those 2 fights
@wet condor sim yo self
get your stat weights, go with that
inland pivot
haste is prob your best stat
wet condor
dude i keep simming my self but it doesnt help
inland pivot
but yeah sim it
hollow stone
I sit boss on mother so i still play sin on her
glass vessel
in general, most specs for ST is Crit/haste combo tho
cerulean walrus
How is it stronger on Mother? Do you end up getting put in earlier teams?
calm grail
You guys use CT on Mythic Zek?
inland pivot
what does it say? @wet condor
glass vessel
yea i go in on 1/2 groups so outlaw is best for that
hollow stone
Im assuming he means m mother and they are doing "zerg" strat
cerulean walrus
Rip your parse dude
glass vessel
if you're going 3/4 single target is better
parseing is done on the earleir groups
lol
cerulean walrus
I mean, don't you get a lower parse on average for being in an earlier group?
astral sundial
hey assassins. is it possible that with very low crit (14% 😦 ) I will need more then 3 targets for FoK to be worth it?
glass vessel
nah, lots of aoe
pearl meteor
@calm grail use ct on zek if need help on adds but if ur sin u shldnt need to, if u do shld b outlaw rly
glass vessel
if you look at world parses for mythic mothers it's all outlaw rogues going in groups 1/2
cerulean walrus
Huh
hollow stone
Yes. Ct on my zek if youre gonna play sin for it. I wouldnt bother on heroic or lower since the adds should die hella fast
cerulean walrus
Interesting
hollow stone
My = mythic...
calm grail
Yeah going sin on Zek. Outlaw weapons are rubbish, sin weapons are 385/380
glass vessel
yea depends on how well your guild already deals with them
in most cases, if you have a strong outlaw setup and play it competently it is god tier on that fight
cerulean walrus
I mean you can CT Exsang the adds down quick though right?
hollow stone
And yea. The parse strat on mother is super cheese and does require you to go in early groups for mass aoe
pearl meteor
Ct exsang 🤔
hollow stone
It also requires a fast transition into@room 3
cerulean walrus
Lol I'm tired AF
pearl meteor
Lmao yes u can but ideally wont need
cerulean walrus
And am a TB PB plebeian
glass vessel
outlaw is also better for interrupt targets on zek with ranged stun for adds during circle phases
if you're going for prog kills and stuff
pearl meteor
Ranged dps btw
hollow stone
Yea dude. Bte is soooo good for those dance/add phases
glass vessel
once you have him on farm things are different, i'd probably go sin/sub for fun
glass vessel
sheeeeit
pearl meteor
On farm those adds will b melted
glass vessel
run sectec for cheese
calm grail
Not about choice really. Got dick weapons for Outlaw. Was trying to figure out how to be as useful as possible within the parameters of being sin.
pseudo finch
worth speccing into prey for th 10% extra dmg aswell
glass vessel
perfect for sectec/dark shadows cheese x)
pearl meteor
@calm grail yes play ct
glass vessel
@calm grail sin is still fine, prey on the weak is straight up OP for that fight regardless of the spec
cerulean walrus
I'm pretty much forced into Sin/Sub I don't have the traits or the weapons for outlaw
glass vessel
run CT and pool for the aoe and you're good, will still do great dmg
hollow stone
Sin is fine on zek. Its only like 2k dps behind outlaw and the st in p2 is valuable. Especially if your group lets you orb, brez, orb
pearl meteor
Dont pool
glass vessel
you dont need traits for outlaw i have dogshit combo and still do fine
pearl meteor
:p
calm grail
Are the casters stunnable?
cerulean walrus
What are you using?
pearl meteor
Ye they are nira
pseudo finch
ya, outlaw really isn't trait reliant
glass vessel
matrix, 385 meticulous scheming (dogshit) and the 355 champions chest
and i got 96% for mother mythic
with those dogshit traits
cerulean walrus
Oof
glass vessel
well, 2/3 are dogshit
pearl meteor
Cc back 2 interupt/stun front, drag boss to next add
cerulean walrus
I'm guessing you'd want 1x Laser 2x Achive? or is the Snek build still better?
I don't outlul
hollow stone
Snek is still technically best but it feels awful
glass vessel
outlaw is pretty forgiving for traits, on logs people are all over the place
pseudo finch
ya , u can do well with any trait really as outlaw
pearl meteor
Rng 
cerulean walrus
Roll, Roll, Roll, Roll, Roll, Roll
hollow stone
Roll roll roll is snek build
You dont need to roll as much w ds/ace
But yeah, rng gonna rng
glass vessel
i mean, you're gonna reroll on average like 65% of the time as regular spec too xD
pseudo finch
and you have killing spree for add and 1 free inbetween add phase
little temple
Are people still stacking SS on assassin for pve?
hollow stone
Sin has lots of rng too w our crits
cerulean walrus
Troll the Bones
glass vessel
havent tried DS/ace yet but i think it'd be fun
kindred flame
rng with crits?
hollow stone
Nah, the rerolls arent that bad at all
glass vessel
yea, mut crits are a huge deal
cerulean walrus
Its what? Reroll until GM or RP or any 2+?
glass vessel
my opener can go from 20k-30k depending wholely on mut crits during MA
kindred flame
YOu have 25% crit you have 22-28 crit on muti for the whole fight, dunno what you mean
glass vessel
now yo only keep RP
cerulean walrus
I think its in the pins but eh
slate jacinth
When I sim Top Gear on raidbots.com and I have two rings I wanna sim between, one has haste enchant and the other one doesnt, how do I go about that?
hollow stone
Yea, its in pins
slate jacinth
Do I just select them rings, or do I have to remove enchant or tick somewhere?
glass vessel
and you will see you can set it to sim with specific enchants, gems
slate jacinth
@pearl meteor Was meant as an example, im doing top gear now cos ive gotten alot of new pieces
pearl meteor
Ik lol
slate jacinth
@glass vessel Ah alright, thx 😃
pearl meteor
Im just not helpful when ive been up this long 😃
hollow stone
Whereas snek build is just reroll forever to get snek stacks and hate yourself
cerulean walrus
I've gotten 4 azerite pieces in a row. All of them have had SS feelssuffocatingman
cursive dagger
I wonder if WowAnalyzer will ever be updated for our spec.. 🤔
glass vessel
yea snek build is cheese, but funny at times
royal lantern
dont choke on that man
glass vessel
ill take 4 snek piecesw over 385 meticulous scheming any day
slate jacinth
snek build? :p
cerulean walrus
I mean my guild has been taking prog REAL slow, so we're only halfway through heroic .-. tfw you haven't joined the 15k club yet
pearl meteor
My guild has been slow too.... were on m mythrax 🤔
primal gazelle
just pug heroic and get 8/8 lmao
cerulean walrus
Yeah I'll probably pug it
glass vessel
can confirm, got aotc a week earlier than my guild in a pug
6min kill in a pug is OP
cerulean walrus
PUGs OP dude lmao
runic maple
why does the guide say quick navigation on only one of the weapons and not both? simc says haste is > crit
glass vessel
we killed him 2sec faster than Dramatic which was nuts. their strat was amazing
charred lantern
guys how do you open with MA can you tell me quick first time opening with it
cerulean walrus
@runic maple DR on weapon enchants
glass vessel
@runic maple the enchants dont stack
cerulean walrus
You want the haste AND the crit chant
cerulean walrus
Yes
runic maple
kk
glass vessel
@charred lantern G-M(4-5cp)-R-M-TB-Ven-Van-Env-M/Env 4-5cp spam and that's really it
astral sundial
they do stack, but once you get 600 haste from your enchant the value of other stats gets higher
runic maple
I see
pearl meteor
Ok almost 9am gn lmao
fossil jewel
Anyone know if there is a way to compare races on Raidbots? Was more just curious than anything, but can't find how
glass vessel
dunno about raidbots but herodamage and bloodmallet have race sims for specs
royal lantern
tbf, i doubt that those race sims on hero dmg are good
charred lantern
niko thanks!
royal lantern
cus why is belf so high for most stuff? they have nothing that actually gives you a dps boost for st/aoe, just the highest playerbase cus everyone is a scum elf
hollow stone
And that energy on the gcd from torrent.... zzzz
royal lantern
many races have that uk
worgen has 1 crit, nelf has 1 crit, pandaren can get 2-3%crit
thats why im confused
desert vault
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/cQ2BpRbJZ1CNzhmn#fight=21&type=damage-done&source=298
Just curious any feedback, ilvl parse is ok the rest is garbage. Been gone for months, so slowly getting back into things just seeing if I'm making any giant mistakes I can fix
hollow stone
Just play orc. Orc master race
rain breach
UD 4 life
velvet geyser
panda's are like the black panther suit. we store up damage from being bouncy and release it towards our enemies.
spice surge
PandaBoi
astral sundial
you can sim diffrent races by changing your race in the simc profile
glass vessel
lmfao @velvet geyser
astral sundial
it's one of the first lines
spice surge
Panda is insane in pvp as well
cerulean walrus
Void Elf racial OP G'huun
hollow stone
Is black panther even a good hero? Is he even a hero?
velvet geyser
Is apple juice really apple juice?
cerulean walrus
🤔
hollow stone
No. Its mostly sugar
wanton wagon
Got 370 shoulders from zul and they aren't even worth using for my 340 SS shoulders in m+, feels bad man
royal lantern
well, pandaren racial active CAN be good in pvp
velvet geyser
Sugardrank
hollow stone
Is black panther also mostly sugar?
royal lantern
but it can trigger dmg trinkets and break it by itself lul
velvet geyser
Black sugar baby
hollow stone
Oh bebe
spice surge
So dont use damage trinkets? 😉
hollow stone
Its just like, he has access to as much, if not more, tech than tony stark and idk about you, but im taking the iron man suit over bp suit all day every day
potent raft
can someone tell me what my opening should look like with Master Assassin? (and no SS trait)
glass vessel
@wanton wagon my 340 SS shoulders outweight my 385 shoulder sin m+ still its okay x)
hollow stone
Niko posted ma opener like 2 mins ago
potent raft
i'll scroll up thanks
glass vessel
G-M(4-5cp)-R-M-TB-Ven-Van-Env-M/Env 4-5cp spam and that's really it
still on my clipboard
peak rune
hey guys is ther a min. haste i should have in M+ or just max Crit / Mastrery?
glass vessel
i like to keep a little haste for bosses